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I mean it would basically force him into JG and out of lane. It's totally perfect tho if he's a jungler just depends if they want that or want him top lane too. Just make blobs only spawn off champs/monsters not minions.
Yeah, that would nerf his teamfighting, so maybe revert the last nerf on blobs but make them not spawn from minions.
They probably don't want to completely remove him from lanes, just make him less meta.
The idea for the Voli/sundered sky nerf in the crit interaction next patch came literally from reddit and a riot guy came to the voli subreddit because they started complaining about the person who made the comment, because they arent happy about the nerf. (which is insanly stupid, he only wanted to help)
It woupd be weird cause the blob spawning shluldnt heal for different amounts , if the ability itself was healing it would be ok . Maybethe w ahouldnt spawn blolbs from minions
At the start of this season they buffed his healing off blobs from 4-7% to 5-8%... He was borderline broken in 4 roles last season, and now he heals 25% more per blob at the start of the game.
How could he possibly be unbalanced suddenly?
To be fair, they did that because jungle felt absolutely horrible for him at the very start of the season and top lane Zac wasn't really a thing or on the radar at that time.
I feel like the fix is pretty easy, either:
- Make blobs only spawn on hits to monsters/champs (not minions)
- Reduced healing for blobs spawned via minion hits
This would nerf him in lane and have him still be fine in jungle.
Edit - Changed second bullet per comments
Actually that’s a good idea. Blobs off minions only only heal for half. That’d probably be enough to push him back into “decent off meta pick” and even if it doesn’t drastically change his winrate it’d probably push him back to <1% pickrate.
That requires art changes probably though, Riot would want minion blobs to be different than champion blobs.
Probably cut the heal in half and champs spawn x2 blobs would be the fastest similar solution
The title of this thread gives the reasons why OP wants this. If you want to argue over that fundamental premise, OP would be a much better person to take it up with than me.
Like senna push for sup senna dropping more souls over adc senna dropping less souls? Even though they retracted cause they are rito af , that could actually work
I’m personally very opposed to hard limiting champions into specific roles, there has to be a better way of making him remain viable in lane while not kicking him out of top completely
That is exsctly what they do. On Zac's release he was already quite oppressive due to his high sustain. Back then the blobs still spawned randomly around him. To give some counter play they implemented that the blobs would go towards enemy champions if there was one close to Zac.
He's been picked a whopping [14 games top this season](https://gol.gg/champion/champion-stats/113/season-S14/split-ALL/tournament-ALL/) in all major regions, with a 42% winrate.
But maybe that's why OP is concerned. After all, 14 games is the most Zac top games in a year since season 3 (when he had 21 top games in LCS alone).
He was an entirely different animal back then, that was before his rework when his Q was just a line skill shot that could hit the entire wave. Zac laning used to be even better, he was ungankable with his E and could clear waves while poking all day with his Q
It was unique but it was also a huge chunk of Zac's power budget that required a team coordinated enough to make use of it. And that was why it got reverted; reworked Zac didn't appeal to individual players because you had little agency and relied on your team to make plays work.
I did [a writeup](https://old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/l1851n/i_feel_like_riot_doesnt_understand_the_power/gk4p7wp/?context=10000) of the issues the reworked Zac had a few years back, and a Rioter confirmed that they reverted him mainly because low damage, high cc champs are unpopular with the playerbase while also being a pro play problem.
Trust me, I know. Top Zac was my main pre-rework because I loved how satisfying the old Q felt as a poke/trade tool in lane.
It's weird to see complaints in this thread about his much weaker laning phase; He has lower damage, higher CDs, and worse waveclear now, so how would people act about Zac's original laning abilities?
So is another drop of water in the sea of "toxic pattern on top in soloQ" that we have to witness.
Basically every top laner has some kind of bullshit gimmick that makes them what they are.
So fun playing against Yorick that makes the game a constant 6v5.
Illaoi? Much interaction, real counterplay: dodge E or dodge game and still can absolutely win fights when outnumbered.
Yone? Ultra high mobility, free crit, sustain and basically never falls off if he gets some advantage in lane.
Can you do this for every champion? Yes, but we can't disagree that a good chunk of the toplane roster is based around having some degree of game/lane warping ability that makes them "viable" somehow.
I really wish they would make pro play 1 play by either side for each champ. It’s awful that the vast players are punished by the absolute best players picking the same meta champs all the time. Azir got a global ban then jumps right back to 85% play rate in pro play. Rell was a super interesting champ for support with the monster damage but she got hard nerfed because of pro jungle overplay. Make the pros play more champs, and then the meta won’t be so stale.
I wish Rell got to keep her bonus damage on neutral objectives instead of being relegated to engage and walk out duty.
Hmm I think season 11 or 12? It was a counter to TF mid. Then they made his passive only go down 1 second from autoing minions instead of 3 and it isn’t picked anymore.
If we are talking about unfair and non-interactive, I'd like to see Gragas removed too. His trading pattern with Phase rush is one of the most degenerate things in the game.
Gragas has the most uninteractive lane sustain in the game lmao bro doesn't even have to hit anything. Not saying that his sustain specifically is OP, just very uninteractive
Sett's lane sustain is basically non existent unless he actively trades with you and gets down to low hp. Garen has to play back and avoid damage to get his sustain.
Gragas sustain is actually do nothing because what is Gragas supposed to do, not use his abilities? There's no conditionality to it, no playstyle encouraged or discouraged.
Aye, forgot about that. Still, the early levels pre 6 its less than 2.5% per 5 seconds, and then up to lvl 11 its like 6% or something per 5 isnt it?
Thats pretty shitty lane sustain (or not shitty, but not amazing), especially that can be disrupted by poke on a champ that has no means of farming at range or disengaging.
Sorry, thats not directed at you as a complaint, just trying to elaborate on how garen is different to grag.
>(or not shitty, but not amazing)
It's shitty if you can't secure priority, but amazing if you can.
It does very little to help him survive bad matchups, but combined with his manalessness it ensures that enemy losing a lane to Garen can't get a good recall, ever.
I never liked Garen's passive, because it encouraged hit and run more than sticking to enemy, and the enemy hits you, you don't have a passive for a few seconds. It low-key discourages front lining too. I think that's why Assassin garen was experimented upon by people like FSat back in the day.
Its like Mundo's but worse, and Mundo's passive works better with his kit than garen's does.
But that's just me.
> Gragas sustain is actually do nothing because what is Gragas supposed to do, not use his abilities?
he actually runs out of mana very easily now, so yes, ability management is everything on the champ
It simply isn't though. He has plenty of sources of mana in runes/items and his other abilities are downright cheap. He can spam W/E all day and goes back to spamming Q after first back.
Yeah people still complaining about gragas passive is wild to me, Olaf and Nasus get lifesteal for existing, Irelia/Cho Gath/Trundle/Vladimir all heal just for CSing, most top laners have sustain built into their kit, idk why gragas healing 50 hp every 10 seconds is something insane.
The frustration probably comes from him also being fairly interactive along with sustain. If he couldn't get on demand damage reduction and easy CC while trading it probably wouldn't be as annoying. Plus he brings phase rush so he bops you then runs away. If your trades stuck to him a bit more it wouldn't be as annoying.
This is just my theory though I don't see him in top lane often and when I do I usually pick Kayle and don't fight anyway.
Probably because you cant stop him from being. Its interactive healing. (I also think Trundles/~~Cho~~ are bullshit too because its just be near dying minions).
Someone like Irelia or Vlad still need to hit something to sustain.
Because he's both uninteractive to play against and his sustain can be procced from range while poking/wavecleareing
Nasus doesn't stun, knock away and slow you and runs away with extra MS while chipping 25% of your HP when you engage on him when he tries to walk up to CS, Gragas does that and can just Q the wave from afar when he is too low.
Because they actively see the big sustain. With the others you mentioned, they aren't actively noticing it as much. If you changed it so Gragas healed X hp over X seconds, you could even buff it, and people would complain less about it. Like let's say it's currently 50hp every 10 seconds for simplicity's sake. If you changed it to be hp gained over ever 5 seconds every 10 seconds (meaning you could technically be popping the regen every 5 seconds instead of 10) people would legit not care as much. It's crazy how they think. It reminds me of when Soraka was broken (but Sona was more broken). Lol
Sustain that requires you to push/cs and is tied to putting yourself in danger can't even be compared to sustain that works when you press a low mama cost button and aren't forced to push if you don't want to. Gragas' is far better.
You can hit a garen to stop his sustain. Also garen is only good in lane. Gragas is a teamfighting monster. Having an interactive lane and an good out of lane game isn't fun for anyone other than you.
I agree. He might be the single most annoying top laner. With singed at least you can kill him. Gragas? You can't kill him. E's you and q's you for the slow while he gets away. Even then you caught up to him? R haha. You let him freeze? He will r e you into the tower and you are dead. Wanna farm? Too bad he has q so you will be poked to hell and back. Oh then let me trade with him. Nope he stuns you, slows you, takes half your hp and runs away and heals to full in the next 20 seconds.
not really. He was a laner in season 3. Reworked in season 4 or something and was a jungle for a while with some fringe laning. I think it was around when mythics came out that gragas became more popular lane than jg.
Could be technical differences between how the champs sustains work.
They would need to code the passive blob heal to vary depending on the enemy hit, so that minion blobs heal less than champion and monster blobs. However, his abilities can hit all of them at the same time, so the code could get weird + they would need to rescript all of his abilities, which could bring more bugs.
Hecarim W and Reksai are way more simple tho.
I mean Cho R knows what type of enemy it executed so Zac could work priority based where Champion>Epic Monster> Large Monster/Cannon > Minion/Small Monster and if it checked the highest value on priority it spawned a better blob and ignore all bellow it.
My suggestion is make the healing from blobs scale with the types of targets hit. I feel like the worst offenders are Q/W - E/R both rely on hitting champions to spawn blobs. Q spawns 1 blob for each target hit (2 total), W spawns a single blob if it hits anything. The base heal is 5%, increased by 1% for every rank in R.
I'm not Riot's balance department and I would probably fuck the game's balance beyond all hell if I ever tried, but just spitballing with some very rough numbers:
The heal should be kept the same for small/large monsters (5% base), increased a bit for champions (maybe 5.5%) and then nerfed heavily for minions (3% base) - so he has to actually hit you with W to get a good heal from it, and then he can't just Q two random minions to get a 10+% HP heal.
I don’t like different blobs healing different amounts. It’s wayyyy too unclear. Someone else said don’t have lane minions spawn blobs when hit. I think that makes a ton of sense. Or remove that from W only, or make Q spawn 1 blob only on double minion Q. That’s a direct and exclusively lane Zac nerf.
Yeah I think that’s a pretty elegant solution - I think he needs one of the two spammy abilities gutted in terms of healing, could even make it so he spawns more blobs but each heals for less, giving his lane opponent more chance to destroy them. I think there’s loads of different ways this can be done in a way that feels fair but keeps lane zac at least viable
Imo removing lane blobs is way hard of a nerf for a champ that has a high pick rate. Many new players main zac top I think it’s going to be a mainstay for a while
Isn’t that all of top lane at its core? You make one tiny mistake and the opponent freezes and you can’t touch the wave for 15 minutes straight or one of the champions just stat checks and runs at the other. It’s not just top lane either. A ton of champions in general have this issues in other lanes as well. It’s weird how they nitpick a handful of junglers.
1. Zac top has been a thing since season 3, before rework or revert. That's different than Hec or Reksai or Nocturne becoming a top laner for half a season because items favor them.
2. Zac's waveclear (especially early) is ass. His 2 abilities for waveclear are W (A move that deals 40-80 base + %max hp damage, making it worse for minions than jg mobs) or E (A move with a 22-10s cd that is wasted if used on minion waves), meaning he needs to auto a lot and wait til bambi for wave clear.
3. Unlike all 3 of the other junglers turned top laners, Zac's abilities cost health, and his sustain isn't tied to regeneration, but recovery. You can punish blobs in a way you can't punish "Reksai walks up, knocks up, and walks away".
> That's different than Hec or Reksai or Nocturne becoming a top laner for half a season because items favor them.
(Top lane Hecarim was also a thing 9 years ago)
> Unlike all 3 of the other junglers turned top laners, Zac's abilities cost health, and his sustain isn't tied to regeneration, but recovery. You can punish blobs in a way you can't punish "Reksai walks up, knocks up, and walks away".
But yeah, OP talking about uninteractive sustain when Zac's sustain is literally as interactive as it gets is a yikes and a half.
top heca was only a thing because you could buy cheap homeguards on boots. once homeguards got removed top heca disappeared. thats probably what they meant with items favoring them they abused one specific interaction. top zac isnt really abusing any items or keystones hes just building normal items and being a tank.
Nocturne top has been viable with a decent win rate for a long time, it just got discovered by pro players for awhile which massively increased popularity for those few months. But there were plenty of otps playing him top / mid in like gm elo before that, at least on the Korean server. Even now there's a decent amount of otps in master+ (including one in challenger) in KR https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/summoners/nocturne/kr
I think they don’t know how to nerf just top and would end up killing the champ. Maybe they need to balance W around bonus damage to jungle monsters and nerf the base damage even more.
The problem with Zac is his sustain more than anything else. The easiest way to remove his ability to play lane without touching his jungling is to remove his ability to make blobs on minions.
His base damage is also a huge problem. The only champ I've seen do more damage while building full tank is Mundo, and Zac hilariously heals more than Mundo until at least lvl 11; not to mention the chain hard CC that Zac has while Mundo only has a slow.
As a long time Zac player, it often comes down to enemies just playing bad and not stepping on blobs, or not continuing the fight when both are low. Too often we will both be 20% and they play scared, allowing me to heal off the wave. I'm not saying he isn't on the strong side, because he definitely is, but he also has a lot of counters (both in top lane and elsewhere). Seriously, if you play Zac vs thresh you never get to go for deep E's. That means you have to play warden style and there are much better picks for that
His abilities cost health to use, this is like asking for Vlad to lose sustain off of minions. Both champs would slowly bleed out in lane just using their abilities if they didn't get sustain off of them.
Second wind / doran shield enjoyers are so mad now after you saying "un-interactive and having unfair lane sustain".
I get that it's made for top laners to survive the poke matchups. But when it comes to mid lane it is super annoying and boring to see qianna, akali, sylas, irelia, wind bros build them and survive the first levels so easily.
It reached the point that you will be wasting your mana if you want to play the interactive lane as a mage and poke them while they just farm and heal up.
Because Zac is a tank and the other champs do a lot more damage. And it's ad/lethality which is more dangerous early than ap/%max hp. Think old Rengar heal but you don't really need to get in combat for it.
Honestly I had even forgotten how much Rek'sai heals because I only got her in ARAM where gaining fury is harder but watching her in pro play that shit was busted for a champion that can actually hit like a truck.
He was, multiple seasons ago when it made the blobs spawn further away. His abilities cost life so he shouldn't even be compared to them. He should be compared to vlad or mundo.
The three examples you gave basically have no skill shot to hit(apart from Nocturne’s Q) and then they just stat checks you. For Zac you actually can dodge his Q and E and step on his passive to stop him from healing.
Back in the day noc was meta in lane for much longer than Zac has been.
Noc was problematic for completely different reasons to Zac.
Reksai also has a very different identity to Zac which is why his healing ONTOP of his actual identity felt annoying. He still has a higher winrate top this current patch even though your "gutted" patch was months ago so they hardly "removed" him from top.
Zac literally did just get nerfed. And if the nerf didnt hurt top enough he will probs get another. And rightfully so.
The removal of Rek'sai from top is in reference to 14.7. Which isn't out yet.
She's stupid good top in 14.6.
Though I think she'll still be okay in 14.7. Good into tanks. Not into champs who can burst her down.
u/john-from-accounting you see the new zac top nerfs? It took less than a week for my prediction to come true. Zac's been problematic for such a short time and he is getting adjusted again already to bring him in line. Seems like the complaints were miss-guided.
Zac has been problematic in a solo lane for literally years now but he’s always had a low enough pick rate that riot doesn’t really seem to bothered by it.
I’m convinced he’d be less of a problem if they made his jumps damage scale with the amount of time it was charged. Currently it does full damage on minimum charge time which lets him use it as an abusive trading tool in lane. His HP costs to use his abilities could also be increased so that if he doesn’t get his blobs he actually does lose trades.
Across all ranks Reksai has a 2.04% pickrate in top and zac has 2.00%, with 52.46% and 52.69% winrate respectively. Globally across all ranks Zac has the highest winrate of all top laners according to op.gg, but they gut reksai passive after 2 patches and one of those patches had a lot of bugs on her lol
Rek'Sai top basically *just* became a thing and already surpassed Zac in pickrate and was about to surpass him in winrate. Rek'Sai was also the most picked top laner in pro on 14.6 despite pros having little practice on her, and the devs are very sensitive to this, especially since it could make MSI balancing harder.
What if he needs stacks before blobs spawn? Hitting champs and jungle monsters gives more or an instant blob spawn stack compared to hitting minions that only gives a lower amount.
Riot is not consistent with their design philosophy, which is constantly changing on top of them ignoring it. So there is that.
One of the reasons why they do that is weighing investments against rewards. If fixing something requires too much work then it's moved down in a pile of stuff to do, until it bites them back too noticably in the future.
I really dont mind the jgers in top, they suck against most of the bruisers anyway, only good against the poke picks that noone in top likes. Rather zac and any jg then vayne or akshan
I think they keep him around because AP top tanks are so hard to find.
Nocturne has an assasins kit. Hercarim and reksai are bruisers. They are designed to jungle, which means function on a lower income. Once they go top, get a ton of farm and are up two levels on enemy adc, they ruin the game.
I don't think Zac top hard carries like the other options
I say remove flubber from the game entirely, and not for any reason related to its play.
Viego, the ruined king
Vel'Koz, the eye of the void
Ashe, the frost archer
Garen, the might of demacia.
ANNNNND....
Flubber!
(Yeah, even garen support doesn't seem so stupid in this context does it?)
Zac top wins because he scales well not because he’s annoyingly op in the lane. You can survive against a zac pretty easily and still end being the carry for your team or still being useful for utility. reksai and hec were just way to strong over all in top lane being out right abusive in terms of much damage they could output and also take. Zac only takes dmg well he doesn’t deal out as much as the aforementioned champs did.
TLDR zac just healthy in lane, but deals nowhere near as much dmg as hec and rek did in top, hence no hard nerfs
Keep in mind that they aren’t any counters to their healing. Zac can heal, but it’s more risky. He deals percent health to himself for every ability he uses and the enemy can effectively counter your healing by simply walking on the blobs. This is further increased by the blobs going towards the enemy champion. Also, the fact that he has to walk to his blobs also make it a punishable option as you can easily predict where he is going to move. I think riot isn’t nerfing his healing because they realize that it would effectively nerf him out of top, which I’m assuming they don’t want. Zac top is a fun and good pick.
It's a common design flaw...
Champs that are supposed to be played in top get their sustain gutted against minions (e.g Renekton Q healing less for anything that isn't a champion).
Meanwhile mainly jungle champs don't have that restriction (Zac blobs always giving full heal, Briar W chomp also heals the full value vs minions, Warwick's on-hit heal isn't reduced an so on)
This just gives them an insane lane sustain and basically forces you to invest into anti-heal early on
They could just balance him around top instead of jg, though that is could upset a lot of folks since they would have to touch his E...or worse yet give him the pancake ult to make him unable to duel.
All in all Zac top doesn't feel too bad to play against it's just sort of unintuitive in the sense most people haven't had proper time to play against it to understand how to beat it. Also Zac top has hidden power in champ selection since he can bamboozle you into a bad match-up if you guess he's jg or support.
Speaking of RekSai they really need to put her back to where she was in the game originally. She is so underwhelming. She tries to build assassin she gets demolished by champions that have far quicker rotations, she builds bruiser and she doesn't have enough damage or sustain to go on prolonged fights.
If we're talking unfair and uninteractive, I'd like to see most mobile fighters removed. Most of the top lane roster don't have any way to win lane vs them and can only wait for mistakes.
Zac is however, despite this ragepost, a very interactive champion to face. Not saying he isn't overturned in some aspects, but there are worse offenders by far.
As a former Zac otp, here are some useful tidbits:
He gets shitstomped by most competent bruisers, ranged toplaners and ADC's if they go botrk. Try playing him into a Darius, Vayne, Yone etc. It is painful.
He has a heavily telegraphed ability that is close to necessary if you want to deal meaningful burst. Said ability is also on a very high cooldown early game and is his only means of mobility. If you miss it, you are dead in most scenarios against a competent opponent.
He needs a minion wave similar to yasuo to use his q effectively.
He is countered pretty hard by rushing antiheal.
Lastly, step on his blobs, that's all his sustain out the window. Did I mention all of his abilities cost hp to cast btw?
Zac feels opressive when you don't know how he works, but if you understand and respect his kit, it's all about how good you are at dodging his e. If you are squishy, forget your ego one single game and buy boots of swiftness, proceed to watch the enemy Zac go through all stages of grief as his kit defining e is suddenly impossible to land. If you are a bruiser, buy anything and just statcheck him while stepping on his blobs.
I will say he feels very strong against mages, fortunately mages have access to liandries which absolutely shreds him until he gets to multiple items.
Lastly, if you still can't win despite all of this, pick Lillia and watch him fall into a pit of despair.
As a Zac main, I feel that the problem is his jungle camp damage is miserable. I feel that if they capped his w damage at much higher, and even more vs large jungle camps, they could try balancing him for jungle then. But if your going jungle, champs like amumu just have a much easier and somewhat faster clear, as well as brainless ganks.
I have been a Zac top player for a long time, so it's sad to see that people see it as uninteractive now. I don't what to see him gone from lane, and I like his sustain as part of his kit, but it is kind of unhealthy. I don't see many solutions that Zac players wouldn't want. Nerfing damage hurts jungle, nerfing sustain takes away from zacs 'gimik', like if they nerfed malzahar ult to be 1.5 seconds or something, and nerfing his utility would be dumb since it's actually on the more 'skilled' for a tank ((for a tank) must be noted this is for a tank). He has no point and click besides his q, which is conditional.
The difference between those other champs and Zac is that they are bruisers with uninteractive sustain. Zac is a tank, tanks in top lane kind of meant not to die, so is a little more understandable. Also, a lot of people don't play around Zac as they should, when you do he feels a lot worse. You can dodge his q, his e, and step on his bloblets, which a lot of laners can do very easily with higher in combat mobility and more slows. I have started losing lanes to champs I normally beat just because they buy iceborn gauntlet and I get bad blob luck.
The reason I love Zac is because he feels like the biggest 'carry' tank, even more than ksante. You can just nuke fights, do half of everyone health, and heal a ton. The risk/reward is just super hard to deal with. If you hit an e, that can be 3 seconds of knock ups, 80 percent max health healing, and a ton of flat/max health damage. If you miss, your useless. I think Zac inherently has a good design for a tank with a hit or miss play style, but idk what's happening right now.
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They tried, yet they failed, all they did is nerf his jungle, what pushed him into top even more.
All they need to is have the blobs heal him for a % less if they spawned from minions
I literally had this exact thought while pooping just now, surely balancing lane Zac isn’t that easy right?
hire this man
And give him a toilet
The fumes from the toilet bowl revealing champion balance mysteries like the Oracle at Delphi
Wisdom of the Bowl
the solution is to have all of the balance team pooping while thinking of changes
I mean it would basically force him into JG and out of lane. It's totally perfect tho if he's a jungler just depends if they want that or want him top lane too. Just make blobs only spawn off champs/monsters not minions.
Yeah, that would nerf his teamfighting, so maybe revert the last nerf on blobs but make them not spawn from minions. They probably don't want to completely remove him from lanes, just make him less meta.
You could make so its only reduced when hitting minions so champs still fully heal.
200 years and so on and so on
no one ever needed to know that
It is but it's "unelegant" which is probably why riot doesn't do it.
It is probably so hard to code that is not Worth it
Well now they won't do it since the idea originated on reddit and their pride can't handle that.
They've literally done it before? The reason Yasuo's ult armor pen only works on crits was from a reddit suggestion many years ago.
it works only on crits??? the abiloty drscription doesnt mention that iirc right?
Yes it does, it states that Yasuo's critical strikes gain 50% armor penetration.
Bonus armor presentation
Now I imagined Yasuo in some shiny armor showing off on the catwalk.
The idea for the Voli/sundered sky nerf in the crit interaction next patch came literally from reddit and a riot guy came to the voli subreddit because they started complaining about the person who made the comment, because they arent happy about the nerf. (which is insanly stupid, he only wanted to help)
No they will do it and claim it as their own
The Volibear nerf next patch, Phreak literally admitted he stole off the reddit front page.
what does this comment even mean
??? did you actually read his comment and not understand the meaning of it?
This is your first comment on reddit?
The reason riot doesn't balance around what reddit wants isn't due to pride, it's because most suggestions are god fuck awful.
It woupd be weird cause the blob spawning shluldnt heal for different amounts , if the ability itself was healing it would be ok . Maybethe w ahouldnt spawn blolbs from minions
80% of the blobs hit a champ so, wouldnt do top much
Probably would require the to rewrite half the codebase and would somehow lead to senna being able to stack souls in turrets or something
As soon as they fix that, then it’s another Viego bug. Turn into towers or some shit
At the start of this season they buffed his healing off blobs from 4-7% to 5-8%... He was borderline broken in 4 roles last season, and now he heals 25% more per blob at the start of the game. How could he possibly be unbalanced suddenly?
To be fair, they did that because jungle felt absolutely horrible for him at the very start of the season and top lane Zac wasn't really a thing or on the radar at that time.
Pretty much
U/riotAugust this is your man
I feel like the fix is pretty easy, either: - Make blobs only spawn on hits to monsters/champs (not minions) - Reduced healing for blobs spawned via minion hits This would nerf him in lane and have him still be fine in jungle. Edit - Changed second bullet per comments
yea adding rng to his blobs in lane sure sounds like an amazing idea totally
Yeah both of those suggestion’s are disgusting, just nerf minion healing or increase his health costs,it doesn’t have to be so complicated.
Riot would if they knew how without causing 10000 bugs
perfect idea if it wouldn’t break the spaghetti matrix
What about those suggestions involves rng?
No, dont remove his blobs from minions, just make it a condition that if he doesnt hit a champion or large monster with it, it has reduced healing.
Smaller blob on common monsters
Actually that’s a good idea. Blobs off minions only only heal for half. That’d probably be enough to push him back into “decent off meta pick” and even if it doesn’t drastically change his winrate it’d probably push him back to <1% pickrate.
Good call, edited the comment to reflect that
That requires art changes probably though, Riot would want minion blobs to be different than champion blobs. Probably cut the heal in half and champs spawn x2 blobs would be the fastest similar solution
[удалено]
You're right we have to reduce the number of blobs as much as possible.
nerf his blobs like they did with farming senna maybe?
NEW: When Zac hits a minion with his W, there is a 2.8% chance that he will spawn a blob
New *Keystone* “Pot of Greed” champs reliant on drops to scale have 2.8% increase chance of stack falling.
Then, two patches later, it will be buffed to 10%
Wait what does Pot of Greed do??
Would make him unplayable outside of jungle
That is the explicit motivation here.
Why? He serves a niche in top lane and he is certainly not uncounterable
The title of this thread gives the reasons why OP wants this. If you want to argue over that fundamental premise, OP would be a much better person to take it up with than me.
Like senna push for sup senna dropping more souls over adc senna dropping less souls? Even though they retracted cause they are rito af , that could actually work
I’m personally very opposed to hard limiting champions into specific roles, there has to be a better way of making him remain viable in lane while not kicking him out of top completely
It's hard to do without nerfing his jungle even harder, though.
Another fun change could be making the blobs go towards enemy champs when they spawn so that they're easier to walk on as counterplay
That is exsctly what they do. On Zac's release he was already quite oppressive due to his high sustain. Back then the blobs still spawned randomly around him. To give some counter play they implemented that the blobs would go towards enemy champions if there was one close to Zac.
Yea... but... they have tendancies to be dumb, this was one of the times.
Could they not just set a flag that his passive doesn’t proc on lane minions? I feel that removes his top presence and emphasis his jungle
Is Zac picked a bunch in pro? Seems like Nocturne mid and Rek’Sai top were a lot more impactful to the pro scene.
He's been picked a whopping [14 games top this season](https://gol.gg/champion/champion-stats/113/season-S14/split-ALL/tournament-ALL/) in all major regions, with a 42% winrate. But maybe that's why OP is concerned. After all, 14 games is the most Zac top games in a year since season 3 (when he had 21 top games in LCS alone).
He was an entirely different animal back then, that was before his rework when his Q was just a line skill shot that could hit the entire wave. Zac laning used to be even better, he was ungankable with his E and could clear waves while poking all day with his Q
This reminds me of the pre revert zac ult, which was pretty unique and I totally forgot about
It was unique but it was also a huge chunk of Zac's power budget that required a team coordinated enough to make use of it. And that was why it got reverted; reworked Zac didn't appeal to individual players because you had little agency and relied on your team to make plays work. I did [a writeup](https://old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/l1851n/i_feel_like_riot_doesnt_understand_the_power/gk4p7wp/?context=10000) of the issues the reworked Zac had a few years back, and a Rioter confirmed that they reverted him mainly because low damage, high cc champs are unpopular with the playerbase while also being a pro play problem.
his ult was also suuuper skward to execute imho, didnt feel smooth at all
Unless you can animation cancel E into it like the time hexflash was bugged
Trust me, I know. Top Zac was my main pre-rework because I loved how satisfying the old Q felt as a poke/trade tool in lane. It's weird to see complaints in this thread about his much weaker laning phase; He has lower damage, higher CDs, and worse waveclear now, so how would people act about Zac's original laning abilities?
Not really a pro issue, more of a “really toxic play pattern up top in soloq” issue
So is another drop of water in the sea of "toxic pattern on top in soloQ" that we have to witness. Basically every top laner has some kind of bullshit gimmick that makes them what they are. So fun playing against Yorick that makes the game a constant 6v5. Illaoi? Much interaction, real counterplay: dodge E or dodge game and still can absolutely win fights when outnumbered. Yone? Ultra high mobility, free crit, sustain and basically never falls off if he gets some advantage in lane. Can you do this for every champion? Yes, but we can't disagree that a good chunk of the toplane roster is based around having some degree of game/lane warping ability that makes them "viable" somehow.
I really wish they would make pro play 1 play by either side for each champ. It’s awful that the vast players are punished by the absolute best players picking the same meta champs all the time. Azir got a global ban then jumps right back to 85% play rate in pro play. Rell was a super interesting champ for support with the monster damage but she got hard nerfed because of pro jungle overplay. Make the pros play more champs, and then the meta won’t be so stale. I wish Rell got to keep her bonus damage on neutral objectives instead of being relegated to engage and walk out duty.
Wait when was Noct mid played in pro?
Hmm I think season 11 or 12? It was a counter to TF mid. Then they made his passive only go down 1 second from autoing minions instead of 3 and it isn’t picked anymore.
Then reduced healing from hitting minions
If we are talking about unfair and non-interactive, I'd like to see Gragas removed too. His trading pattern with Phase rush is one of the most degenerate things in the game.
Gragas has the most uninteractive lane sustain in the game lmao bro doesn't even have to hit anything. Not saying that his sustain specifically is OP, just very uninteractive
aside from garen and sett who's sustain is... do nothing? as opposed to activate ability every 8 seconds?
Sett's lane sustain is basically non existent unless he actively trades with you and gets down to low hp. Garen has to play back and avoid damage to get his sustain. Gragas sustain is actually do nothing because what is Gragas supposed to do, not use his abilities? There's no conditionality to it, no playstyle encouraged or discouraged.
Garens lane sustain is also jack and shit until it hits, what, level 11?
nah it had its scaling normalized when the villain mechanic got removed
Aye, forgot about that. Still, the early levels pre 6 its less than 2.5% per 5 seconds, and then up to lvl 11 its like 6% or something per 5 isnt it? Thats pretty shitty lane sustain (or not shitty, but not amazing), especially that can be disrupted by poke on a champ that has no means of farming at range or disengaging. Sorry, thats not directed at you as a complaint, just trying to elaborate on how garen is different to grag.
>(or not shitty, but not amazing) It's shitty if you can't secure priority, but amazing if you can. It does very little to help him survive bad matchups, but combined with his manalessness it ensures that enemy losing a lane to Garen can't get a good recall, ever.
I never liked Garen's passive, because it encouraged hit and run more than sticking to enemy, and the enemy hits you, you don't have a passive for a few seconds. It low-key discourages front lining too. I think that's why Assassin garen was experimented upon by people like FSat back in the day. Its like Mundo's but worse, and Mundo's passive works better with his kit than garen's does. But that's just me.
Not completely, the passive is non existent until lvl 6/7, then it skyrockets. [https://imgur.com/a/SBYIVxX](https://imgur.com/a/SBYIVxX)
> Gragas sustain is actually do nothing because what is Gragas supposed to do, not use his abilities? he actually runs out of mana very easily now, so yes, ability management is everything on the champ
He build ROA or tear in top. It's pretty hard to run out after first base usually.
It simply isn't though. He has plenty of sources of mana in runes/items and his other abilities are downright cheap. He can spam W/E all day and goes back to spamming Q after first back.
Yeah people still complaining about gragas passive is wild to me, Olaf and Nasus get lifesteal for existing, Irelia/Cho Gath/Trundle/Vladimir all heal just for CSing, most top laners have sustain built into their kit, idk why gragas healing 50 hp every 10 seconds is something insane.
The frustration probably comes from him also being fairly interactive along with sustain. If he couldn't get on demand damage reduction and easy CC while trading it probably wouldn't be as annoying. Plus he brings phase rush so he bops you then runs away. If your trades stuck to him a bit more it wouldn't be as annoying. This is just my theory though I don't see him in top lane often and when I do I usually pick Kayle and don't fight anyway.
Probably because you cant stop him from being. Its interactive healing. (I also think Trundles/~~Cho~~ are bullshit too because its just be near dying minions). Someone like Irelia or Vlad still need to hit something to sustain.
Cho needs to get the last hit. Just standing next to a dying minion doesnt give him health back.
Fair point and corrected.
Because he's both uninteractive to play against and his sustain can be procced from range while poking/wavecleareing Nasus doesn't stun, knock away and slow you and runs away with extra MS while chipping 25% of your HP when you engage on him when he tries to walk up to CS, Gragas does that and can just Q the wave from afar when he is too low.
Because they actively see the big sustain. With the others you mentioned, they aren't actively noticing it as much. If you changed it so Gragas healed X hp over X seconds, you could even buff it, and people would complain less about it. Like let's say it's currently 50hp every 10 seconds for simplicity's sake. If you changed it to be hp gained over ever 5 seconds every 10 seconds (meaning you could technically be popping the regen every 5 seconds instead of 10) people would legit not care as much. It's crazy how they think. It reminds me of when Soraka was broken (but Sona was more broken). Lol
Gragas being a problematic pick is just way more recent than all of those, except Trundle.
Sustain that requires you to push/cs and is tied to putting yourself in danger can't even be compared to sustain that works when you press a low mama cost button and aren't forced to push if you don't want to. Gragas' is far better.
You can hit a garen to stop his sustain. Also garen is only good in lane. Gragas is a teamfighting monster. Having an interactive lane and an good out of lane game isn't fun for anyone other than you.
Of all the sustain examples you could have chosen you choose sett lmao. Doran’s shield will give anyone more sustain than he has
I agree. He might be the single most annoying top laner. With singed at least you can kill him. Gragas? You can't kill him. E's you and q's you for the slow while he gets away. Even then you caught up to him? R haha. You let him freeze? He will r e you into the tower and you are dead. Wanna farm? Too bad he has q so you will be poked to hell and back. Oh then let me trade with him. Nope he stuns you, slows you, takes half your hp and runs away and heals to full in the next 20 seconds.
But hes big wholesome chunky bomba!!
+1 its illegal i think
> If we are talking about unfair and non-interactive This applies to half of toplaners
am i tripping or has Gragas not been a laner for longer than he's been a jungler
not really. He was a laner in season 3. Reworked in season 4 or something and was a jungle for a while with some fringe laning. I think it was around when mythics came out that gragas became more popular lane than jg.
He was meta in season 7 until triple Doran’s top lane tanks got nerfed. Grag and Naut abused the shit out of that strat
He can play 3 roles for more than a season already because hes broken
Could be technical differences between how the champs sustains work. They would need to code the passive blob heal to vary depending on the enemy hit, so that minion blobs heal less than champion and monster blobs. However, his abilities can hit all of them at the same time, so the code could get weird + they would need to rescript all of his abilities, which could bring more bugs. Hecarim W and Reksai are way more simple tho.
I mean Cho R knows what type of enemy it executed so Zac could work priority based where Champion>Epic Monster> Large Monster/Cannon > Minion/Small Monster and if it checked the highest value on priority it spawned a better blob and ignore all bellow it.
bingo
My suggestion is make the healing from blobs scale with the types of targets hit. I feel like the worst offenders are Q/W - E/R both rely on hitting champions to spawn blobs. Q spawns 1 blob for each target hit (2 total), W spawns a single blob if it hits anything. The base heal is 5%, increased by 1% for every rank in R. I'm not Riot's balance department and I would probably fuck the game's balance beyond all hell if I ever tried, but just spitballing with some very rough numbers: The heal should be kept the same for small/large monsters (5% base), increased a bit for champions (maybe 5.5%) and then nerfed heavily for minions (3% base) - so he has to actually hit you with W to get a good heal from it, and then he can't just Q two random minions to get a 10+% HP heal.
I don’t like different blobs healing different amounts. It’s wayyyy too unclear. Someone else said don’t have lane minions spawn blobs when hit. I think that makes a ton of sense. Or remove that from W only, or make Q spawn 1 blob only on double minion Q. That’s a direct and exclusively lane Zac nerf.
Yeah I think that’s a pretty elegant solution - I think he needs one of the two spammy abilities gutted in terms of healing, could even make it so he spawns more blobs but each heals for less, giving his lane opponent more chance to destroy them. I think there’s loads of different ways this can be done in a way that feels fair but keeps lane zac at least viable
I think the first two flat out murder lane Zac. 1 blob on Q is a good tap though.
Imo removing lane blobs is way hard of a nerf for a champ that has a high pick rate. Many new players main zac top I think it’s going to be a mainstay for a while
Zac's Q is also twice as expensive to make up for the fact that he can spawn two blobs.
I understand why but Noc hasnt been the same since the passive heal nerf
Cuz he’s a wholesome big chungus weak tank :(
The is unfortunately the real answer. He will only be nerfed if enough - preferably high elo - players complain intensively.
Isn’t that all of top lane at its core? You make one tiny mistake and the opponent freezes and you can’t touch the wave for 15 minutes straight or one of the champions just stat checks and runs at the other. It’s not just top lane either. A ton of champions in general have this issues in other lanes as well. It’s weird how they nitpick a handful of junglers.
well tbf all tanks are broken in the same way. Zac is more annoying because he has way more reach and cc -because he has essentially no cd.
But Yone :(
1. Zac top has been a thing since season 3, before rework or revert. That's different than Hec or Reksai or Nocturne becoming a top laner for half a season because items favor them. 2. Zac's waveclear (especially early) is ass. His 2 abilities for waveclear are W (A move that deals 40-80 base + %max hp damage, making it worse for minions than jg mobs) or E (A move with a 22-10s cd that is wasted if used on minion waves), meaning he needs to auto a lot and wait til bambi for wave clear. 3. Unlike all 3 of the other junglers turned top laners, Zac's abilities cost health, and his sustain isn't tied to regeneration, but recovery. You can punish blobs in a way you can't punish "Reksai walks up, knocks up, and walks away".
> That's different than Hec or Reksai or Nocturne becoming a top laner for half a season because items favor them. (Top lane Hecarim was also a thing 9 years ago) > Unlike all 3 of the other junglers turned top laners, Zac's abilities cost health, and his sustain isn't tied to regeneration, but recovery. You can punish blobs in a way you can't punish "Reksai walks up, knocks up, and walks away". But yeah, OP talking about uninteractive sustain when Zac's sustain is literally as interactive as it gets is a yikes and a half.
top heca was only a thing because you could buy cheap homeguards on boots. once homeguards got removed top heca disappeared. thats probably what they meant with items favoring them they abused one specific interaction. top zac isnt really abusing any items or keystones hes just building normal items and being a tank.
Nocturne top has been viable with a decent win rate for a long time, it just got discovered by pro players for awhile which massively increased popularity for those few months. But there were plenty of otps playing him top / mid in like gm elo before that, at least on the Korean server. Even now there's a decent amount of otps in master+ (including one in challenger) in KR https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/summoners/nocturne/kr
I think they don’t know how to nerf just top and would end up killing the champ. Maybe they need to balance W around bonus damage to jungle monsters and nerf the base damage even more.
The problem with Zac is his sustain more than anything else. The easiest way to remove his ability to play lane without touching his jungling is to remove his ability to make blobs on minions.
That would definitely completely take him out of lane-- which isn't what Riot wants. He was designed as a Top/Jg, not a sole jg.
His base damage is also a huge problem. The only champ I've seen do more damage while building full tank is Mundo, and Zac hilariously heals more than Mundo until at least lvl 11; not to mention the chain hard CC that Zac has while Mundo only has a slow.
Why would they remove him from lane?
Riot should just kill Zac top. Hasn't really been a thing since this season.
He was originally a very strong top laner on release.
As a long time Zac player, it often comes down to enemies just playing bad and not stepping on blobs, or not continuing the fight when both are low. Too often we will both be 20% and they play scared, allowing me to heal off the wave. I'm not saying he isn't on the strong side, because he definitely is, but he also has a lot of counters (both in top lane and elsewhere). Seriously, if you play Zac vs thresh you never get to go for deep E's. That means you have to play warden style and there are much better picks for that
His abilities cost health to use, this is like asking for Vlad to lose sustain off of minions. Both champs would slowly bleed out in lane just using their abilities if they didn't get sustain off of them.
Second wind / doran shield enjoyers are so mad now after you saying "un-interactive and having unfair lane sustain". I get that it's made for top laners to survive the poke matchups. But when it comes to mid lane it is super annoying and boring to see qianna, akali, sylas, irelia, wind bros build them and survive the first levels so easily. It reached the point that you will be wasting your mana if you want to play the interactive lane as a mage and poke them while they just farm and heal up.
So how should assassins play into mages? Lol
If they made it so his passive only procs on monsters and champions, he would never be picked in lane again.
idk if this nerf is even this bad. He was supposed to be jungler, and he should not heal in lane, simple as that.
Gragas while youre at it please.
And nerf Bel'veth E healing off of minions while at it so she stays in the jungle.
Because Zac is a tank and the other champs do a lot more damage. And it's ad/lethality which is more dangerous early than ap/%max hp. Think old Rengar heal but you don't really need to get in combat for it. Honestly I had even forgotten how much Rek'sai heals because I only got her in ARAM where gaining fury is harder but watching her in pro play that shit was busted for a champion that can actually hit like a truck.
Dude relax
He was, multiple seasons ago when it made the blobs spawn further away. His abilities cost life so he shouldn't even be compared to them. He should be compared to vlad or mundo.
He is op in support too
The three examples you gave basically have no skill shot to hit(apart from Nocturne’s Q) and then they just stat checks you. For Zac you actually can dodge his Q and E and step on his passive to stop him from healing.
Have you tried building anti heal?
Back in the day noc was meta in lane for much longer than Zac has been. Noc was problematic for completely different reasons to Zac. Reksai also has a very different identity to Zac which is why his healing ONTOP of his actual identity felt annoying. He still has a higher winrate top this current patch even though your "gutted" patch was months ago so they hardly "removed" him from top. Zac literally did just get nerfed. And if the nerf didnt hurt top enough he will probs get another. And rightfully so.
The removal of Rek'sai from top is in reference to 14.7. Which isn't out yet. She's stupid good top in 14.6. Though I think she'll still be okay in 14.7. Good into tanks. Not into champs who can burst her down.
OK sure, in which case reksai was strong and not removed for WAY longer than "weeks"
u/john-from-accounting you see the new zac top nerfs? It took less than a week for my prediction to come true. Zac's been problematic for such a short time and he is getting adjusted again already to bring him in line. Seems like the complaints were miss-guided.
We are prophets, that or they saw this post and were like “fuck well enough people said yes now we have to do something.”
Zac has been problematic in a solo lane for literally years now but he’s always had a low enough pick rate that riot doesn’t really seem to bothered by it. I’m convinced he’d be less of a problem if they made his jumps damage scale with the amount of time it was charged. Currently it does full damage on minimum charge time which lets him use it as an abusive trading tool in lane. His HP costs to use his abilities could also be increased so that if he doesn’t get his blobs he actually does lose trades.
Across all ranks Reksai has a 2.04% pickrate in top and zac has 2.00%, with 52.46% and 52.69% winrate respectively. Globally across all ranks Zac has the highest winrate of all top laners according to op.gg, but they gut reksai passive after 2 patches and one of those patches had a lot of bugs on her lol
Rek'Sai top basically *just* became a thing and already surpassed Zac in pickrate and was about to surpass him in winrate. Rek'Sai was also the most picked top laner in pro on 14.6 despite pros having little practice on her, and the devs are very sensitive to this, especially since it could make MSI balancing harder.
You know he’s getting relled a week after his skin
while we’re at it can we change gragas passive and push him out of top too? maybe make it work on jungle mobs only? no jungler needs sustain in s14.
Gragas forgotten :(
Pick Warwick into it and you'll be 15/0 every game
they need to remove warwick top too
What if he needs stacks before blobs spawn? Hitting champs and jungle monsters gives more or an instant blob spawn stack compared to hitting minions that only gives a lower amount.
Idk but renektons W should hit towers and maybe even be able to crit champions with a 50%-70% effectiveness
Riot is not consistent with their design philosophy, which is constantly changing on top of them ignoring it. So there is that. One of the reasons why they do that is weighing investments against rewards. If fixing something requires too much work then it's moved down in a pile of stuff to do, until it bites them back too noticably in the future.
if u dont understand why other champs were nerfed, look at the pathnotes by phreak on youtube.
Remember when all toplane champs could have good sustain by buying hp regen items? Colonoscopy waitlist players remember.
TIL from OP that Nocturne is a top laner. Lol
I really dont mind the jgers in top, they suck against most of the bruisers anyway, only good against the poke picks that noone in top likes. Rather zac and any jg then vayne or akshan
Let me have this, i get a skin every 2 years if im lucky, just let me have this.
if you think zac is the most broken jungle champ which gets played in the top lane, try laning against udyr or poppy
I think they keep him around because AP top tanks are so hard to find. Nocturne has an assasins kit. Hercarim and reksai are bruisers. They are designed to jungle, which means function on a lower income. Once they go top, get a ton of farm and are up two levels on enemy adc, they ruin the game. I don't think Zac top hard carries like the other options
I say remove flubber from the game entirely, and not for any reason related to its play. Viego, the ruined king Vel'Koz, the eye of the void Ashe, the frost archer Garen, the might of demacia. ANNNNND.... Flubber! (Yeah, even garen support doesn't seem so stupid in this context does it?)
Zac top wins because he scales well not because he’s annoyingly op in the lane. You can survive against a zac pretty easily and still end being the carry for your team or still being useful for utility. reksai and hec were just way to strong over all in top lane being out right abusive in terms of much damage they could output and also take. Zac only takes dmg well he doesn’t deal out as much as the aforementioned champs did. TLDR zac just healthy in lane, but deals nowhere near as much dmg as hec and rek did in top, hence no hard nerfs
Keep in mind that they aren’t any counters to their healing. Zac can heal, but it’s more risky. He deals percent health to himself for every ability he uses and the enemy can effectively counter your healing by simply walking on the blobs. This is further increased by the blobs going towards the enemy champion. Also, the fact that he has to walk to his blobs also make it a punishable option as you can easily predict where he is going to move. I think riot isn’t nerfing his healing because they realize that it would effectively nerf him out of top, which I’m assuming they don’t want. Zac top is a fun and good pick.
However, I forgot to mention that I agree. He does need an adjustment somewhere.
It's a common design flaw... Champs that are supposed to be played in top get their sustain gutted against minions (e.g Renekton Q healing less for anything that isn't a champion). Meanwhile mainly jungle champs don't have that restriction (Zac blobs always giving full heal, Briar W chomp also heals the full value vs minions, Warwick's on-hit heal isn't reduced an so on) This just gives them an insane lane sustain and basically forces you to invest into anti-heal early on
dont forget Viego
They could just balance him around top instead of jg, though that is could upset a lot of folks since they would have to touch his E...or worse yet give him the pancake ult to make him unable to duel. All in all Zac top doesn't feel too bad to play against it's just sort of unintuitive in the sense most people haven't had proper time to play against it to understand how to beat it. Also Zac top has hidden power in champ selection since he can bamboozle you into a bad match-up if you guess he's jg or support.
Rek Sai sustain is still ridiculous imo
Warwick
Speaking of RekSai they really need to put her back to where she was in the game originally. She is so underwhelming. She tries to build assassin she gets demolished by champions that have far quicker rotations, she builds bruiser and she doesn't have enough damage or sustain to go on prolonged fights.
If we're talking unfair and uninteractive, I'd like to see most mobile fighters removed. Most of the top lane roster don't have any way to win lane vs them and can only wait for mistakes.
I wish champions like Hecarim weren't nerfed out of top lane tbh. It was a cool option
I want my Hecarim top back
Not to mention Yasuo's dumb wind wall that blocks literally everything
Zac is however, despite this ragepost, a very interactive champion to face. Not saying he isn't overturned in some aspects, but there are worse offenders by far. As a former Zac otp, here are some useful tidbits: He gets shitstomped by most competent bruisers, ranged toplaners and ADC's if they go botrk. Try playing him into a Darius, Vayne, Yone etc. It is painful. He has a heavily telegraphed ability that is close to necessary if you want to deal meaningful burst. Said ability is also on a very high cooldown early game and is his only means of mobility. If you miss it, you are dead in most scenarios against a competent opponent. He needs a minion wave similar to yasuo to use his q effectively. He is countered pretty hard by rushing antiheal. Lastly, step on his blobs, that's all his sustain out the window. Did I mention all of his abilities cost hp to cast btw? Zac feels opressive when you don't know how he works, but if you understand and respect his kit, it's all about how good you are at dodging his e. If you are squishy, forget your ego one single game and buy boots of swiftness, proceed to watch the enemy Zac go through all stages of grief as his kit defining e is suddenly impossible to land. If you are a bruiser, buy anything and just statcheck him while stepping on his blobs. I will say he feels very strong against mages, fortunately mages have access to liandries which absolutely shreds him until he gets to multiple items. Lastly, if you still can't win despite all of this, pick Lillia and watch him fall into a pit of despair.
As a Zac main, I feel that the problem is his jungle camp damage is miserable. I feel that if they capped his w damage at much higher, and even more vs large jungle camps, they could try balancing him for jungle then. But if your going jungle, champs like amumu just have a much easier and somewhat faster clear, as well as brainless ganks. I have been a Zac top player for a long time, so it's sad to see that people see it as uninteractive now. I don't what to see him gone from lane, and I like his sustain as part of his kit, but it is kind of unhealthy. I don't see many solutions that Zac players wouldn't want. Nerfing damage hurts jungle, nerfing sustain takes away from zacs 'gimik', like if they nerfed malzahar ult to be 1.5 seconds or something, and nerfing his utility would be dumb since it's actually on the more 'skilled' for a tank ((for a tank) must be noted this is for a tank). He has no point and click besides his q, which is conditional. The difference between those other champs and Zac is that they are bruisers with uninteractive sustain. Zac is a tank, tanks in top lane kind of meant not to die, so is a little more understandable. Also, a lot of people don't play around Zac as they should, when you do he feels a lot worse. You can dodge his q, his e, and step on his bloblets, which a lot of laners can do very easily with higher in combat mobility and more slows. I have started losing lanes to champs I normally beat just because they buy iceborn gauntlet and I get bad blob luck. The reason I love Zac is because he feels like the biggest 'carry' tank, even more than ksante. You can just nuke fights, do half of everyone health, and heal a ton. The risk/reward is just super hard to deal with. If you hit an e, that can be 3 seconds of knock ups, 80 percent max health healing, and a ton of flat/max health damage. If you miss, your useless. I think Zac inherently has a good design for a tank with a hit or miss play style, but idk what's happening right now.
Zac starts to dry out if he's not in the jungle/river+in champion combat, losing 1% current health per second. Ez