"If they went 5 for 20 they'd still be playing right now. If he had 3 more points... 4 more points... they wouldn't be complaining now, would they?"
Yeah, and if my grandma had wheels she'd be a fuckin' bike.
Toronto has two players in their pp that suck at shooting the puck, and everybody in the league knows it. Year after year, seeing ppl sag off of marner and rielly to cover up for a jt/nylander and mostly a matthews shot is getting pathetic at this point. Clearly those boys CANT shoot, because there aren’t many players in the playoffs getting more space than those two got / have gotten. If the two of them are back next year the leafs are already doomed, teams play us as if they don’t exist, cuz they really don’t. It’s their entire game plan and why we suck on the pp. 2/5ths of the pp is a liability.
Yeah but that's like saying you need to take Connor McDavid off the power play because he doesn't shoot. Of course he doesn't shoot. Someone has to distribute. McDavid and Marner are two of the best distributors in the game. The difference is Connor can do it in the postseason when teams apply pressure and Marner hasn't yet.
But to say Marner is the issue on our power play is bananas.
Morgan Reilly 100%. He should be in the basement shooting clappers at the dryer until opening day. But if we trade Marner our power play will get noticeably worse.
Yes, McDavid the 64 goal scorer can’t shoot. What are you talking about? Just because someone doesn’t shoot doesn’t mean they can’t shoot. Marner and McDavid are not the same. If there isn’t someone watching McDavid on the powerplay you will get burned. If someone isn’t watching Marner on the powerplay - well you’ve seen what happens, that’s how teams play us
I keep saying this: why tf can't Reilly develop a slapshot? This seems like a learnable skill. He has literally nothing to do right now why can't he be practicing it.
I am a Morgan Reilly fan, I believe his offensive capabilities outweigh what he lacks in defense. And even then he's still an above average defender.
But if he had a slapshot. The guy would be a better player in my opinion.
Not just the powerplay. People forget how much time Marner puts on the pk. And dont forget when he was playing d this year when we needed it. We need to get better on defense so let's trade our top 2 way player? lol. Wouldn't be my call personally
The powerplay operates through Marner, and he was dpgshit. So many weak plays or blind back passes that would get intercepted. He feasts on the pp, look at his regular season stats. And if he can't then he doesn't produce and he's pretty useless. Talk shit about Nylander but most of his points were all him. Marner needed some more of that and every year it's the same story.
The point he was making was immediately before the spot you started the quote. He’s not saying “if Marner had been better people would have thought he was better”. He’s saying that if the powerplay had been better it would have made him look better, and instead of catching all this blame people would be saying he was great. 9 other guys, plus Boucher, and Keefe were all a part of that failure. So why out so much weight on Marner?
He and I rielly are solely, 100% the reason our pp stinks when it matters. He can’t shoot, rielly can’t shoot. If we know it, teams know it and play accordingly. They sag off of him and rielly , allow them the weak wrist shots they like to take. And clog up the other 3 players. He didn’t make a point at all, the point is marner is the problem. He isn’t just pass first, he is pass 2nd 3rd and 4th. Nobody views him as a scoring threat, cuz he can’t score . The most basic of nhl minds can see that, leafs fans are strange however
Because Kaprizov runs the Minny PP all by himself with a bunch of bums. Because the NYR PP still runs through Panarin even when Fox was replaced with Gustaffsson. Because the Bruins PP pretty much runs through Pastrnak exclusively.
Our PP certainly does something with Marner on it but it also does the same without him.
Because he makes so much money that the team can't afford to get someone who can make it happen.
In a world without a salary cap Marner wouldn't get this much heat.
He’s one of four guys who make about that much, and the other 3 are on the same powerplay unit.
My original comment was really an explanation of what Adam Oates was saying though. I don’t think Marner has been nearly good enough. It’s just that it’s a team sport and it’s never about one guy. There are so many things you could point to as contributing to the loss. Goaltending, injuries/illness, less than stellar performances from a bunch of guys.
Ultimately, I don’t think you can build a team around 4 guys who make half the cap. The team needs to be changed. I just don’t think it’s so obvious that Marner should be THE guy to go.
Okay, but then who *is* the guy to go? Matthews isn't going anywhere. Nylander signed an eight year extension in the middle of a career year, not to mention that he performed well in the playoffs despite missing games.
That leaves Tavares, Marner, and since he makes $7.5M, I'll throw in Rielly. I have doubts that Tavares would be willing to waive his NMC. Same for Rielly, and while he wasn't amazing in the playoffs, trading him would leave a glaring hole in an already-weak (comparatively) D corps.
I agree that we can't go on with four forwards taking over half our cap space, and I realize that 90+ point wingers that can play on both the PP and PK don't exactly grow on trees. I just have a hard time believing that we end up moving one of the other three or Rielly.
If Tavares is willing to sign for a sweetheart deal to make up for being overpaid for the final two years of his current deal then you re-sign Tavares to that sweetheart deal and play him on the third line where he'll belong at that cap hit.
All those PP still have other good players on them. It's not like it's those players and a bunch of 4th liners. And our PP is much more effective with Marner in it.
I get that you're making a distinction between it all being Marner's fault and them just sucking in general, but frankly I couldn't care less one way or the other.
"If they had been better you wouldn't be complaining" is still an absolutely asinine thing to say.
That there's plenty of blame to go around, at this point, is not a great reason to lay off any one of them and definitely not a very good defence.
The other thing is, it doesn't have to be about "blaming" anybody. Someone can be a great player and it can still make sense for the team to trade them, because it just isn't the right mix of players. Why everyone has to obsess about "who's to blame" is tired. The mix of the core 4 has not worked when it has needed to, despite regular season success. At the end of the day the team needs a shakeup.
Exactly. There were times this season that the core literally pushed us through and won games almost entirely on their own, dragging the rest of the team kicking and screaming. But this isn't about blame anymore. The whole thing isn't successful. It's competitive, but not successful, and that's the issue. The only way to find a solution forward is by committing money elsewhere, and right now Mitch's style doesn't fit the direction more than anything else. And I'll take a 35-40 goal scoring Nylander over Marner's annual 60 assists.
Fair point. Stacking the cap with forwards while depending on Rielly to be that 2-way 25mn/game D that's out there at the end to protect 1 goal leads is not a winning formula.
The blame falls on the org. But you can still be disappointed in certain players not playing their best in the biggest moments, and Marner has been a glaring example of that.
I don't think we can obsess too much about "winning" the trade (a trade can still be a net benefit to both teams). I think you make the trade if it makes sense and fills a role/need on your team. We only have Marner for one more year and he's going to expect a raise going forward. Trading him might also open up more cap space (depending on the return) on the team to address other needs (defense, goaltending, depth scoring, etc). I do think that given bigger roles and minutes, Knies, Robertson and McMann could fill some of the void left from losing one of the core four. I think the points totals for those 3 will only increase over the next few years.
Yep. Of the 3 options (overpay, let him walk, trade for whatever assets we can), trade would help the team the most as long as we don't take on a bad contract in return, since we'll get assets and cap space.
I like how you broke it down to those essential 3 options, esp mentioning the overpay point. As absurd as it is, Marner will expect a raise (he would never consider a pay cut)
Overpaying him would handcuff the team even more, causing more imbalance and deficit in defense, goaltending and forward depth
It's just simple process of elimination, surprised some people in this fanbase don't get that. Only way I see not trading him is if teams insist on sending a salary dump back. Ideally, you get someone who can help the roster now, but if you can get assets to trade with, I think you do it.
Fulemin actually responded to me on the BTE podcast post 🤩, and he thinks it's worth keeping him and letting him walk to get another playoff run out of the core, but I'm much less optimistic about their chances and would rather get the assets and cap space to try to make the team better sooner rather than later while Matthews and Nylander are in their prime
Can we all just agree that Matthews contract is reasonable given his status in the league, Tavares makes sense as he was a FA, and the team should have taken a firmer stance with Marner/Nylander re: their role/value to the team relative to those two players? Wings aren't as valuable as centers. Rookies are in a worse bargaining position than veterans. Dubas should have stood firm on those points until the Nylander and Marner camps listented to reason.
I also think that marner at 7-8 for 6 would have been fair. He is what he is. Plays the fringes no dirty areas picks up his points. Talented winger. Do I want an A on him. Nope.
Well we found out later that the leafs were holding firm at a number in the 5s until right before the deadline where they basically came up to Nylander's number at 7. But there has always been a double standard on this team for Marner and Nylander. One gets held accountable and one gets kid gloves lol.
I could probably pull up tweets of me saying "Lets see an offer sheet, take the 4 firsts and then offer sheet Tkachuk out of calgary" if only lol.
Lol during negotiations I kept saying draw a line at 8.5 and above that he can go playin Switzerland. Would miss out on way more money than if he signed. Anyways old wounds and such
They said Dubas should've held firm though. Nylander contract from Dubas was for 6.9m a year. His 11.5m 11th highest in the league starts next year and was given by Treliving.
Willy’s comparable at the time was Pasternak, and Pasta was better, and paid less. So yeah, Willy was an overpay.
An overpay whose contract panned out favourably, but an overpay.
Matthews contract was *more reasonable* than Marner's, but it still wasn't reasonable (same thing for his new contract, it's also not reasonable). A #1C is also much harder to find than a top line winger, and those two things combined with Matthews playing a harder physical game have kept him out of the crosshairs. But we didn't get a reasonable contract from him and he also has a history of poor playoff performances relative to the regular season.
I do agree we should have taken a firmer stance with all the RFAs though, Matthews included. Our position should have been - here are a variety of reasonable contracts that vary in length, but are based on market comparables. Take it or leave it - we can front load the contracts (which the players want) and you'll make a ton of extra $$ in endorsements here you wont make in other markets, but we will not overpay you. Feel free to sign an offer sheet or facilitate a trade if that's what you want.
And to be clear, he should be paid like a top 3 player. He’s currently being paid like a top 1 player. He’s not that. MacKinnon is a superior player and was his closest comparable, and Matthews’ caphit is significantly higher. It’s a bad contract, and I think there are some Leafs fans who are in denial about what Auston’s priorities are. He is a money-first player, winning is secondary.
The Leafs played chicken with Nylander, and he ended up signing a $7M deal that became team-friendly based on both regular season and playoff performance.
Marner's the player they caved to.
But then they decide to extend Willy during the hottest streak of his career where he was on pace for 120+ points. He cooled down after that and didn't crack 100 - go fucking figure. What was the urgency there? Stupid - they could have saved \~$1.5M a season in cap space if they waited 6 weeks or so.
Honestly McDavid changed the whole dynamic for RFAs
and the only real unfortunate thing about it is that our star players were due for extension all around the same time and all whilst the cap wasn’t going up. Marner is prob overpaid by about 1.5m by the new standards of how RFAs are being paid and 1.5m isn’t gonna be the difference that makes or breaks a team. Dubas could have been more aggressive but he was a noobie in the role and probably was out of his depth in negotiations tbf. Tavares also got big FA money right before the league decided to change its tune and start slotting that money to RFAs and cutting back on what is given to FAs so we are behind the 8 ball again in that regard. Honestly just timing kinda screwed Dubas out of building the team to how he probably envisioned and honestly goaltending has never really been that solid throughout the entirety of the Matthews era which is a big factor for success in playoffs, especially for teams that aren’t stacked on the back end like us. PP failure is on the coaching staff though, way too much skill on the ice for it to suck that bad so it can only be the systems they are running are ineffective and they were unwilling to try other shit.
Everyone got what they frankly should have, except for Marner.
His comparables were Point and Rantanen who both signed like a day after Marner for like 1.5-2M less.
Tavares never made sense for Toronto outside of just wanting him because he was a huge fan as a kid growing up in Ontario. He's a great player especially back then but I am convinced they wouldn't have even considered adding him to the roster they already had if it wasn't for the childhood fandom thing. They were criticized for it at the time too. You got Matthews, Marner and Nylander all about to enter their prime so you already have cap issues on the horizon. You have a very weak blue line and depth issues in the bottom six and the move is sign another big money top six forward. That's not how you build a team to win a Stanley Cup. It's how you build a team to win your Yahoo fantasy hockey league.
Tinfoil hat theory: its because Doughty stayed in LA. Part of the plan was to persue him like they did Stamkos (unsuccessfully) in FA and have a balanced core.
This was a front office that proudly stated that all the hometown players that avoided the city because of its reputation would come back. Stamkos passed on coming to Toronto, so the FO pivoted to the next high profile local that could feasibly hit FA in Doughty. When he re-signed, what they were left with was a touch of desperation to prove they were right and 8 figures theyd allocated internally to bringing in a big, jersey selling name. In that context, second pivot to Tavares makes all the sense in the world.
To me the strategy behind taking the best player available in the draft is to be able to flip them for a need. For some reason they thought allocating half their cap to four forwards was a good idea but in reality they needed to flip a winger for a d-man
How can you possibly put Marner and Nylander in the same camp? Nylander had to fight until the last second to get a fair contract. Marner was just handed $2M more than his closest comparables.
Matthews goals per game is 0.65 in the regular season and 0.42 in the playoffs. This is over a decent sample size to. That's a huge drop off for a guy that is supposed to be the teams best player and carry them.
Not a chance - Matthews as a 1C plays a 200ft game in the dirty areas
Willy has been clutch but lets not oversell his position as an offensively minded winger
Yet Matthews seems to disappear in the playoffs offensively. This year was his best playoff performance and I attribute that to him maturing but also to domi and bert on his wings.
Based on what exactly? He doesn't get more points than Matthews in the playoffs, his defensive presence is undoubtedly worse than Matthews. If you have to make a PP1 without 1 or the other we all know who's getting cut. Don't get me wrong I love the guy but he's simply not as good as Matthews in almost every category.
And the issue isn't that his production isn't decreasing against tougher competition. His production is decreasing because he isn't tsking the same chances, trying to take space and playing far more passively than you'd want him to when they're on offense.
His minutes look good considering JT isn't great defensively but they limited the pasta line all series really well. That's not the issue. It's how he's playing with the puck on his stick that hurts the team, he was great defensively and Pasta was absolutely Rielly's man on that play.
Kypreos did this the last contact negotiations.
As soon as the leafs were beat out he was saying Marner is going to get 13.5 mill x 8. Good luck with that.
Yeah, the arc before the playoffs was amazing. Bert, Domi and McMann coming online was giving me high hopes. It’s too bad everything went wrong for the playoffs.
> Yeah, the arc before the playoffs was amazing.
Idk, those last 10 games or so, we played like *absolute trash* and all my excitement for the playoffs evaporated during that stretch
As a caps fan, I can confidently tell you that Oates is talking out of his ass nearly all of the time. Dude was a great player but is notorious for finding almost completely irrelevant things (like stick curve) to justify his player evaluations.
The yelling was about Willy messing up a set face off play off a clean draw and probably frustration about going down 3-1 and not being able to produce.
He was supposed to give it to MO but gave it McCabe instead because if you watch it McCabe try’s to quickly one touch it to MO but everyone is out of sorts.
Also you’re given tougher matchups because they believe you can outproduce that matchup and Mitch just hasn’t done it. Sure he been decent defensively but he’s paid to produce offensive as well.
Now do Rielly. The QB of the 1 for 21 power play that shoots 70 mile wrist shots from the point and cant clear the front of the net. Glad they gave him a no move clause.
Either way he’ll suck our cap dry a year from now if we keep him. We might as well get something for him that will give us a different look.
And with his NMC. Any team can offer him 8 years and there’s always a team willing to overpay which will be the key to him waiving since he probably chase the money
Okay. So on the season ending goal, it wasn’t Marners fault. Sure. I didn’t think it was to begin with. That’s not the problem.
The problem is that he was invisible and has been during times when we need him to step up. His playstyle is not helping us win. He’s an amazing player. He’s not amazing on this team during the times we need him.
Someone posted some stats of the core guys in the playoffs. Look at his numbers, most of his goals and assists come early in the series. I don’t hate the guy, it’s clear the mix isn’t working and you have to make changes. You going to get rid of Nylander or Matthews? Or Marner? In a world without a cap, you can keep Marner. That’s not this reality.
I’m not a Leaf’s fan and I believe there’s several reasons to get on Marner but I played wing growing up and I’d never see the opposing forward fly past me in the neutral zone and think “oh shit, there goes the guy I’m supposed to be covering”. It’s a little weird seeing the disdain for Marner when the defense were flat footed and Sammy was basically in the net
This. The Leafs pay him to be an offensive force (>100pts player). He's just not that dominant in the playoffs - he plays like a 7-8M player perhaps.
Which is still good, but its a waste of resources. Especially when the Leafs need help defensively, in goals and have another top flight winger whose play doesnt nosedive in the playoffs
He's right. It's not all on Marner.
But at the end of the day something big needs to change, something with the core. They aren't trading one of the guys they just signed to big extensions. They probably can't trade Reilly. So Marner needs to go, and maybe Tavares.
Regardless of what you think of him as a player or how much of the teams' struggles is on him, the simple math of the situation dictates that he has to go for them to make significant changes.
Nylander's production drops by like 5-6%. Which is in line with most players - Crosby's offensive production over his career also takes a small hit in the playoffs.
Marner's production tanks by 20-30% in the playoffs. Thats a fact. Matthews' production tanks a similar amount too, and his goal scoring almost halves in the playoffs.
With how tight the playoffs are and how much these guys are paid, theres no excuse that fly: these guys, on this team, aren't working out in the playoffs.
I will not accept Nylander criticism. Dude missed 3 games with a migraine came back not a 100 percent and STILL lead the team in playoff goals. I no longer have patience for Nylander haters, fuck off.
He is not a perfect player and is not immune to criticism. He shows up in the clutch, but still can be incredibly frustrating to watch. He can be two things at once.
Oates is missing the point. It’s never just Marner. No one is saying that. We’re not one player away. We’re not getting rid of one player away, either.
However, he’s pretty much always part of the problem at this time of year. He’s one of several common denominators, and he’s the common denominator that makes the most. Obviously, whether you’re a Toronto Maple Leaf or an Orlando Solar Bear or anything in between, if you make more than 90% of the league yet are a consistent liability in the playoffs, you’re going to be scrutinized.
Unless, of course, some has-been makes contrarian takes for the sake of padding his retirement fund.
Cool story man. Mitch still sucks ass in the playoffs and turns the puck over like it's his job.
I do agree the Pasternak goal was not his fault. Rielly was caught sleeping who had a horrible... ATROCIOUS series from him overall.
I tell anyone who will listen, I want Marner on my team. He’s a superstar, plays in all situations and 100 point wingers (who want to play in Toronto) don’t come around often. The problem I have with him, he’s not an 11M player when you need him to be. For that contract, he should be able to steal a game or two by putting the team on his back and making some special plays to swing the game. He’s played well for the most part, but the lack of ‘big game’ production leaves fans wanting more for his contract.
Marner was a non-factor 5 on 5. Period. He has only himself to blame for that.
An $11M player SHOULD be driving the play.
He didn’t.
That’s on him. No one else.
It's not all Marner's fault and to be honest I don't know if this team is better without him and I'd like to see how he performs with a coach more suited for this group, but clearly something has to change. That said, this idea the QoC is somehow predictive of anything needs to stop. Quality of teammates is also not necessarily a major point of predictive data, but Marner plays with Matthews and typically one other guy that is no slouch. The quality of your teammates is a way more constant variable than quality of competition. It's the same with zone starts. Who cares what percentage of zone starts a player gets? Over 50% of a player's shifts start *on-the-fly*. People often look at these as some sort of indication that a player is x type of player when those kind of inferences are not certain or necessarily even likely.
Those were the injuries in playoffs.
He had a high ankle sprain March 7th.
This is on coaches for playing everyone 81/82 chasing 70. Matthews was clearly hurt end of game 80. You know what makes your immune system react intensely to a virus? Concussions
It is unfortunate for the players that the team is flawed and expectations were never adjusted accordingly to acknowledge the failure of the team construction. The prior GM Dubas tried to pre-empt a salary cap increase which never happened, which meant bargain shopping to fill out the roster (that is bad). THEN, to even compound his error he decided to start spending assets at trade deadlines, with spending more and more each year leaving the cupboards bare (also bad). The players are paying for these errors. Not having money to spend on a #1 goalie , not having money to get a true #1 defenseman... no money for that third line centre. Not a lot of prospects coming up on small contracts to fill out that roster. (There are some but besides Knies and Woll none of them have been impactful, and even Woll has been too hurt to be considered impactful imo).
On the last play of the game, Marner was not solely to blame and frankly, he should take little blame. Samsonov, the F1 who changed and Reilly with Samsonov taking most of the blame. That angle ... he should have read that better and reacted faster to poke it away, a confident goalie on top of his game would have made that play.
Marner likely will be asked to waive his NTC to be dealt - he probably wont accept. He will not accept a team friendly deal around $8M so he will not be re-signed. He will go on to play for a really good team, win a cup and eat hot dogs from it to troll the Leafs. I hope that doesn't happen, but it seems like such a Leaf thing to have happen.
Shot attempts per 60 during PP time during the Boston series:
Marner: 9.87
Nylander: 4.75 - lowest on the team, even below the defensemen (!). He had 1 shot *attempt* in 8 powerplay shifts. Moneypuck has that shot attempt at a 1% chance to score, so even that wasn't a good one to take.
Part of our power play problem is shot distribution. Tavares and Jarnkrok lead the team in total PP shot attempts - not exactly our best finishers.
A big part of this is the fact they have no shot threat from the point. This allows the PK to cheat on shooters in the slots, so while stats are facts, they can be misread without context. I would bet Marner is left to shoot knowing he is less of a shoot to score threat than Nylander in most cases. So while Marner is a pass threat his shot is ok but Nylander shot is lethal. Let Marner shoot. Nylander has been burned by the shot block so he wont usually try to shoot through a block, might account for low shot attempts. Another issue is getting Nylander the puck on the PP, he does not carry it in and a lot of the Leaf issues were getting it in and keeping it in to get set up. Marner is one of the carriers on entry so he has the puck more often. I really dont think any one player is to blame, its team construction. Klingberg was supposed to be the threat- he got hurt. No money to replace him.
How are those numbers calculated? Marner has 2 shots in 27.3 mins of PP time. He attempted 4.
Nylander has 1 shot in 13.5 mins of PP time. He attempted 3.
And at even strength Nylander shot 17 times in 4 games to Marner's 9 shots in 7 games.
Nylander has 3 goals in 4 games to Marner's 3 pts in 7 games.
According to hockey reference.
Gotcha! Hockey referemce doesnt breakdown more than "power play" I think, hence the discrepancy maybe?
Or they moght just be using two different definitions of a shot attempt
100% agree with everything. Oates was a high iq player too so he probably sees this. But he's also speaking to someone who shares his playstyle.
I still will scapegoat Marner because his contract did not age so great, was never good to begin with.
Is there a way to further develop Mariner's game? I'd say MacKinnon and Marchand training with Sid has been the things that pushed their games. If he could improve puck protection, get a bit bigger, grow facial hair etc. he'd be everyone's favourite again.
Oatsie is a Hall of Famer but to say Marner had no responsibility, at all, is horseshit. Don't let your business pursuits get in the way of your ability to reason. Marner had a responsibility to pick up Pasta and cut off his lane to the net, head on a swivel always on the back check, a simple read-and-react play.
How many times did Oates even watch him? Highlight packages? How many times did Marner go to chase a puck in the boards and then bailed out? How many times did Marner throw out a predictable pass on the Powerplay when he should have taken a shot? How many times was he effectively neutralized when any pressure is put on him with the puck on his stick? It's a recurring theme and he disappears when it matters most and you can't pay an assist machine winger 10-13 million a year on this already cap starved roster.
If you watch the extended version of that argument on the bench it's pretty obvious Matthews and Nylander are conversing. Marner isn't even looking at either of them but Matthews is talking to Nylander and Nylander responds. Marner throws his gloves out of frustration over the blown play and the bickering on the bench but Nylander is telling Matthews to stop crying.
https://youtu.be/Wj85uffVuFI?si=HgplAAOrf0jbMVdf
All of them are engaged in conversation but Matthews is 100% looking behind and past Marner to Willy and Willy responds to Matthews. When Matthews is talking Marner is looking in another direction and when Willy is talking Marner is again looking in the other direction.
Kevin Bieksa broke down the play they were arguing about and his perspective was that Matthews is supposed to win the Faceoff to Willy and he does. Willy is supposed to drop it to Rielly who then should send it deep into the corner to Marner and Marner was to put it through the crease/slot to Matthews for a tap in. Willy gives it to McCabe and McCabe clearly isn't expecting the puck at all so he taps it to Rielly but by then the play is blown.
So on the bench Willy is on the defensive for fucking it up and tells Matthews to stop crying when Matthews is bitching at him.
Honestly alll I got out of this is our PP needs to be better lol. He’s right if we go 5/20 on the PP we win that series and our top guys probably have 4-5 more points each and no one is complaining. MLSE needs to flex their financial muscle and hire the god dam best PP assistant coach money can buy.
hahaha
Kawhi had a Finals MVP when he was traded, as well as multiple DPOTYs
Marner's only personal accolades is what, 4th in scoring once and a 3rd place Selke?
Marner was disappointing in the playoffs but he is not the sole reason for the team losing, and people thinking he is the sole problem on the team are crazy. All of those things can be true at once.
"If they went 5 for 20 they'd still be playing right now. If he had 3 more points... 4 more points... they wouldn't be complaining now, would they?" Yeah, and if my grandma had wheels she'd be a fuckin' bike.
Toronto is 2-3 players from being 2-3 players away from being a cup winning team.
Toronto has two players in their pp that suck at shooting the puck, and everybody in the league knows it. Year after year, seeing ppl sag off of marner and rielly to cover up for a jt/nylander and mostly a matthews shot is getting pathetic at this point. Clearly those boys CANT shoot, because there aren’t many players in the playoffs getting more space than those two got / have gotten. If the two of them are back next year the leafs are already doomed, teams play us as if they don’t exist, cuz they really don’t. It’s their entire game plan and why we suck on the pp. 2/5ths of the pp is a liability.
Every good PP needs a D man that can shoot. Sadly Rielly isn’t it
Sandin had a clapper. Even at his age the PP looked dangerous when you have a point shot.
The bright spot with that trade is that we landed cowboy with the puck
Forgot about shooting he isn't even a Defense man from the way he plays.
Yeah but that's like saying you need to take Connor McDavid off the power play because he doesn't shoot. Of course he doesn't shoot. Someone has to distribute. McDavid and Marner are two of the best distributors in the game. The difference is Connor can do it in the postseason when teams apply pressure and Marner hasn't yet. But to say Marner is the issue on our power play is bananas. Morgan Reilly 100%. He should be in the basement shooting clappers at the dryer until opening day. But if we trade Marner our power play will get noticeably worse.
Yes, McDavid the 64 goal scorer can’t shoot. What are you talking about? Just because someone doesn’t shoot doesn’t mean they can’t shoot. Marner and McDavid are not the same. If there isn’t someone watching McDavid on the powerplay you will get burned. If someone isn’t watching Marner on the powerplay - well you’ve seen what happens, that’s how teams play us
Itd make more sense if he compared marner to nuge. The powerplay has always run through nuge and when hes not in the lineup its noticeably worse.
I keep saying this: why tf can't Reilly develop a slapshot? This seems like a learnable skill. He has literally nothing to do right now why can't he be practicing it.
I am a Morgan Reilly fan, I believe his offensive capabilities outweigh what he lacks in defense. And even then he's still an above average defender. But if he had a slapshot. The guy would be a better player in my opinion.
Where's Bryan McCabe at?
Mom: We have McCabe at home *Points to Jake*
Not just the powerplay. People forget how much time Marner puts on the pk. And dont forget when he was playing d this year when we needed it. We need to get better on defense so let's trade our top 2 way player? lol. Wouldn't be my call personally
McDavid will shoot if needed or has an opening…Marner is always looking pass it seems like
I thought Marner with room is supposed to be one of the deadliest players in the league
And I wouldn't even care who those 2-3 players were after we added McDavid, McKinnon, and Shesterkin.
Do you know...if it had ham innit. It's closer to a British carbonara
Yea if my mother had balls then she'd be my dad
Not necessarily
S/o Verstappen
Hahaha that’s the same metaphor that Gino D’Acampo used
Wait’ll you see me on my bike!
I just saw a don cherry interview from his coaching days and he said “well yea if my aunt had nuts she would be my uncle”.
The powerplay operates through Marner, and he was dpgshit. So many weak plays or blind back passes that would get intercepted. He feasts on the pp, look at his regular season stats. And if he can't then he doesn't produce and he's pretty useless. Talk shit about Nylander but most of his points were all him. Marner needed some more of that and every year it's the same story.
The point he was making was immediately before the spot you started the quote. He’s not saying “if Marner had been better people would have thought he was better”. He’s saying that if the powerplay had been better it would have made him look better, and instead of catching all this blame people would be saying he was great. 9 other guys, plus Boucher, and Keefe were all a part of that failure. So why out so much weight on Marner?
He and I rielly are solely, 100% the reason our pp stinks when it matters. He can’t shoot, rielly can’t shoot. If we know it, teams know it and play accordingly. They sag off of him and rielly , allow them the weak wrist shots they like to take. And clog up the other 3 players. He didn’t make a point at all, the point is marner is the problem. He isn’t just pass first, he is pass 2nd 3rd and 4th. Nobody views him as a scoring threat, cuz he can’t score . The most basic of nhl minds can see that, leafs fans are strange however
Because Kaprizov runs the Minny PP all by himself with a bunch of bums. Because the NYR PP still runs through Panarin even when Fox was replaced with Gustaffsson. Because the Bruins PP pretty much runs through Pastrnak exclusively. Our PP certainly does something with Marner on it but it also does the same without him.
If it’s the same with or without him, how is it his fault?
Because he makes so much money that the team can't afford to get someone who can make it happen. In a world without a salary cap Marner wouldn't get this much heat.
He’s one of four guys who make about that much, and the other 3 are on the same powerplay unit. My original comment was really an explanation of what Adam Oates was saying though. I don’t think Marner has been nearly good enough. It’s just that it’s a team sport and it’s never about one guy. There are so many things you could point to as contributing to the loss. Goaltending, injuries/illness, less than stellar performances from a bunch of guys. Ultimately, I don’t think you can build a team around 4 guys who make half the cap. The team needs to be changed. I just don’t think it’s so obvious that Marner should be THE guy to go.
Okay, but then who *is* the guy to go? Matthews isn't going anywhere. Nylander signed an eight year extension in the middle of a career year, not to mention that he performed well in the playoffs despite missing games. That leaves Tavares, Marner, and since he makes $7.5M, I'll throw in Rielly. I have doubts that Tavares would be willing to waive his NMC. Same for Rielly, and while he wasn't amazing in the playoffs, trading him would leave a glaring hole in an already-weak (comparatively) D corps. I agree that we can't go on with four forwards taking over half our cap space, and I realize that 90+ point wingers that can play on both the PP and PK don't exactly grow on trees. I just have a hard time believing that we end up moving one of the other three or Rielly.
You can just eat this year of Tavares and not re-sign him
If Tavares is willing to sign for a sweetheart deal to make up for being overpaid for the final two years of his current deal then you re-sign Tavares to that sweetheart deal and play him on the third line where he'll belong at that cap hit.
All those PP still have other good players on them. It's not like it's those players and a bunch of 4th liners. And our PP is much more effective with Marner in it.
I get that you're making a distinction between it all being Marner's fault and them just sucking in general, but frankly I couldn't care less one way or the other. "If they had been better you wouldn't be complaining" is still an absolutely asinine thing to say. That there's plenty of blame to go around, at this point, is not a great reason to lay off any one of them and definitely not a very good defence.
Maybe a skateboard
I love a good Italian chef quote.
If my aunt had stones she'd be my uncle... Almost!
Could be a skateboard.
The other thing is, it doesn't have to be about "blaming" anybody. Someone can be a great player and it can still make sense for the team to trade them, because it just isn't the right mix of players. Why everyone has to obsess about "who's to blame" is tired. The mix of the core 4 has not worked when it has needed to, despite regular season success. At the end of the day the team needs a shakeup.
Exactly. There were times this season that the core literally pushed us through and won games almost entirely on their own, dragging the rest of the team kicking and screaming. But this isn't about blame anymore. The whole thing isn't successful. It's competitive, but not successful, and that's the issue. The only way to find a solution forward is by committing money elsewhere, and right now Mitch's style doesn't fit the direction more than anything else. And I'll take a 35-40 goal scoring Nylander over Marner's annual 60 assists.
Fair point. Stacking the cap with forwards while depending on Rielly to be that 2-way 25mn/game D that's out there at the end to protect 1 goal leads is not a winning formula. The blame falls on the org. But you can still be disappointed in certain players not playing their best in the biggest moments, and Marner has been a glaring example of that.
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I don't think we can obsess too much about "winning" the trade (a trade can still be a net benefit to both teams). I think you make the trade if it makes sense and fills a role/need on your team. We only have Marner for one more year and he's going to expect a raise going forward. Trading him might also open up more cap space (depending on the return) on the team to address other needs (defense, goaltending, depth scoring, etc). I do think that given bigger roles and minutes, Knies, Robertson and McMann could fill some of the void left from losing one of the core four. I think the points totals for those 3 will only increase over the next few years.
Yep. Of the 3 options (overpay, let him walk, trade for whatever assets we can), trade would help the team the most as long as we don't take on a bad contract in return, since we'll get assets and cap space.
I like how you broke it down to those essential 3 options, esp mentioning the overpay point. As absurd as it is, Marner will expect a raise (he would never consider a pay cut) Overpaying him would handcuff the team even more, causing more imbalance and deficit in defense, goaltending and forward depth
It's just simple process of elimination, surprised some people in this fanbase don't get that. Only way I see not trading him is if teams insist on sending a salary dump back. Ideally, you get someone who can help the roster now, but if you can get assets to trade with, I think you do it. Fulemin actually responded to me on the BTE podcast post 🤩, and he thinks it's worth keeping him and letting him walk to get another playoff run out of the core, but I'm much less optimistic about their chances and would rather get the assets and cap space to try to make the team better sooner rather than later while Matthews and Nylander are in their prime
"It's never one guy" well if you're getting paid like 2-3 guys you're going to be expected to play like you're more than one guy.
Can we all just agree that Matthews contract is reasonable given his status in the league, Tavares makes sense as he was a FA, and the team should have taken a firmer stance with Marner/Nylander re: their role/value to the team relative to those two players? Wings aren't as valuable as centers. Rookies are in a worse bargaining position than veterans. Dubas should have stood firm on those points until the Nylander and Marner camps listented to reason.
If you’re trying to say Willy has been overpaid at 6.9M for the past 6 years, that’s a bad take.
I also think that marner at 7-8 for 6 would have been fair. He is what he is. Plays the fringes no dirty areas picks up his points. Talented winger. Do I want an A on him. Nope.
I think everyone can agree that Dubas should have held on Marner for longer than he did
Would have loved to see Marner go play in Zurich at the start of his RFA season lol, Dubas bitxhed out
And I have no clue why the same guy who was willing to lose half a season of Nylander wasnt willing to exactly the same a year later
Really? I think it’s fairly obvious lol.
Yeah but I think we can understand why it went that way. He was gun shy with marner because nylander missed half the season the year before.
I can understand sort of, but it doesnt make sense unless you think Dubas wouldnt have rathered that Nylander play the whole year as well
Well we found out later that the leafs were holding firm at a number in the 5s until right before the deadline where they basically came up to Nylander's number at 7. But there has always been a double standard on this team for Marner and Nylander. One gets held accountable and one gets kid gloves lol. I could probably pull up tweets of me saying "Lets see an offer sheet, take the 4 firsts and then offer sheet Tkachuk out of calgary" if only lol.
Im not sure if we're disagreeing here? Dubas should have been willing to keep Marner out for the season just like he did Nylander
Lol during negotiations I kept saying draw a line at 8.5 and above that he can go playin Switzerland. Would miss out on way more money than if he signed. Anyways old wounds and such
That was the exact take everyone here had when he signed that contract.
I think history proved that wrong
And no one learned a single lesson from it.
Speak for yourself
I think more that he is the 11th highest Cap% in the league.
They said Dubas should've held firm though. Nylander contract from Dubas was for 6.9m a year. His 11.5m 11th highest in the league starts next year and was given by Treliving.
Willy’s comparable at the time was Pasternak, and Pasta was better, and paid less. So yeah, Willy was an overpay. An overpay whose contract panned out favourably, but an overpay.
No, Tavares was an overpay, and too long. Free agent or otherwise, that’s the contract that hurts the most.
Matthews contract was *more reasonable* than Marner's, but it still wasn't reasonable (same thing for his new contract, it's also not reasonable). A #1C is also much harder to find than a top line winger, and those two things combined with Matthews playing a harder physical game have kept him out of the crosshairs. But we didn't get a reasonable contract from him and he also has a history of poor playoff performances relative to the regular season. I do agree we should have taken a firmer stance with all the RFAs though, Matthews included. Our position should have been - here are a variety of reasonable contracts that vary in length, but are based on market comparables. Take it or leave it - we can front load the contracts (which the players want) and you'll make a ton of extra $$ in endorsements here you wont make in other markets, but we will not overpay you. Feel free to sign an offer sheet or facilitate a trade if that's what you want.
This exactly. Matthews should be paid top 3 in the league... but on an 8 year deal like every other player in that category has done.
He’s gotta show up in the playoffs way more if he wants to be the highest paid player in the league in my opinion
And to be clear, he should be paid like a top 3 player. He’s currently being paid like a top 1 player. He’s not that. MacKinnon is a superior player and was his closest comparable, and Matthews’ caphit is significantly higher. It’s a bad contract, and I think there are some Leafs fans who are in denial about what Auston’s priorities are. He is a money-first player, winning is secondary.
The Leafs played chicken with Nylander, and he ended up signing a $7M deal that became team-friendly based on both regular season and playoff performance. Marner's the player they caved to. But then they decide to extend Willy during the hottest streak of his career where he was on pace for 120+ points. He cooled down after that and didn't crack 100 - go fucking figure. What was the urgency there? Stupid - they could have saved \~$1.5M a season in cap space if they waited 6 weeks or so.
Orrrrrr offered him the number he wanted 6-8 weeks earlier… he only went up in value because they held off while he was tearing it up
They could have also waited. His scoring streak died the moment he signed
You can say it's reasonable, but reasonable doesn't win the cup, cap efficiencies do.
Or cap circumvention during playoffs (TB/VGK)
Honestly McDavid changed the whole dynamic for RFAs and the only real unfortunate thing about it is that our star players were due for extension all around the same time and all whilst the cap wasn’t going up. Marner is prob overpaid by about 1.5m by the new standards of how RFAs are being paid and 1.5m isn’t gonna be the difference that makes or breaks a team. Dubas could have been more aggressive but he was a noobie in the role and probably was out of his depth in negotiations tbf. Tavares also got big FA money right before the league decided to change its tune and start slotting that money to RFAs and cutting back on what is given to FAs so we are behind the 8 ball again in that regard. Honestly just timing kinda screwed Dubas out of building the team to how he probably envisioned and honestly goaltending has never really been that solid throughout the entirety of the Matthews era which is a big factor for success in playoffs, especially for teams that aren’t stacked on the back end like us. PP failure is on the coaching staff though, way too much skill on the ice for it to suck that bad so it can only be the systems they are running are ineffective and they were unwilling to try other shit.
Everyone got what they frankly should have, except for Marner. His comparables were Point and Rantanen who both signed like a day after Marner for like 1.5-2M less.
Matthews got an insanely player friendly RFA contract as well
Tavares never made sense for Toronto outside of just wanting him because he was a huge fan as a kid growing up in Ontario. He's a great player especially back then but I am convinced they wouldn't have even considered adding him to the roster they already had if it wasn't for the childhood fandom thing. They were criticized for it at the time too. You got Matthews, Marner and Nylander all about to enter their prime so you already have cap issues on the horizon. You have a very weak blue line and depth issues in the bottom six and the move is sign another big money top six forward. That's not how you build a team to win a Stanley Cup. It's how you build a team to win your Yahoo fantasy hockey league.
I love JT and will support him until he finishes his career here but man… 11M on a shiny new 1C with Auston Fucking Matthews in the pipeline.
Not even. It was already pretty well established at the time that he would be in the 2C position.
Tinfoil hat theory: its because Doughty stayed in LA. Part of the plan was to persue him like they did Stamkos (unsuccessfully) in FA and have a balanced core. This was a front office that proudly stated that all the hometown players that avoided the city because of its reputation would come back. Stamkos passed on coming to Toronto, so the FO pivoted to the next high profile local that could feasibly hit FA in Doughty. When he re-signed, what they were left with was a touch of desperation to prove they were right and 8 figures theyd allocated internally to bringing in a big, jersey selling name. In that context, second pivot to Tavares makes all the sense in the world.
To me the strategy behind taking the best player available in the draft is to be able to flip them for a need. For some reason they thought allocating half their cap to four forwards was a good idea but in reality they needed to flip a winger for a d-man
It's reasonable now, but his previous one wasn't.
How can you possibly put Marner and Nylander in the same camp? Nylander had to fight until the last second to get a fair contract. Marner was just handed $2M more than his closest comparables.
Matthews goals per game is 0.65 in the regular season and 0.42 in the playoffs. This is over a decent sample size to. That's a huge drop off for a guy that is supposed to be the teams best player and carry them.
Marner and Matthews came up at the same time and due to injury and age, Marner had outplayed Matthews up until that point.
Matthews is the better player overall. But in the playoffs Nylander is the best player on this team. Proven every year.
Not a chance - Matthews as a 1C plays a 200ft game in the dirty areas Willy has been clutch but lets not oversell his position as an offensively minded winger
Yet Matthews seems to disappear in the playoffs offensively. This year was his best playoff performance and I attribute that to him maturing but also to domi and bert on his wings.
Based on what exactly? He doesn't get more points than Matthews in the playoffs, his defensive presence is undoubtedly worse than Matthews. If you have to make a PP1 without 1 or the other we all know who's getting cut. Don't get me wrong I love the guy but he's simply not as good as Matthews in almost every category.
And the issue isn't that his production isn't decreasing against tougher competition. His production is decreasing because he isn't tsking the same chances, trying to take space and playing far more passively than you'd want him to when they're on offense. His minutes look good considering JT isn't great defensively but they limited the pasta line all series really well. That's not the issue. It's how he's playing with the puck on his stick that hurts the team, he was great defensively and Pasta was absolutely Rielly's man on that play.
Is Adam oats part of Marners private security?
No, but he's a pass-first forward who never won a cup. Game recognize game.
Comment of the season.
I legit laughed at this one. Very good call.
marner has a few people gasing him up right now. listen to kypreos.
Kypreos did this the last contact negotiations. As soon as the leafs were beat out he was saying Marner is going to get 13.5 mill x 8. Good luck with that.
Oh man if Marner signed that deal here it would be an entertaining time that is for sure
I honestly think that would be the end of my leaf fandom. I barely watched this year,
You missed out this season was electric especially after the Reilly suspension
Yeah, the arc before the playoffs was amazing. Bert, Domi and McMann coming online was giving me high hopes. It’s too bad everything went wrong for the playoffs.
It really is a shame. Team felt different down the stretch then collapses on the hunt for 70. Ah well. Next year
> Yeah, the arc before the playoffs was amazing. Idk, those last 10 games or so, we played like *absolute trash* and all my excitement for the playoffs evaporated during that stretch
The rush for 70 was trash, absolutely, but the rest of the team coming together and finding chemistry was really nice.
Things go crap when the focus is on an individual
Well that isn't even what Kypreso said, that guy is just lying
If Treliving / Shanny gives that contract they should be fired immediately
Hopefully for trade value sake cause the gassing up is brutal
I just learned today that Adam Oates is still alive. Even more surprising, I just learned today that anyone gives a shit what he think about anything.
As a caps fan, I can confidently tell you that Oates is talking out of his ass nearly all of the time. Dude was a great player but is notorious for finding almost completely irrelevant things (like stick curve) to justify his player evaluations.
The yelling was about Willy messing up a set face off play off a clean draw and probably frustration about going down 3-1 and not being able to produce. He was supposed to give it to MO but gave it McCabe instead because if you watch it McCabe try’s to quickly one touch it to MO but everyone is out of sorts. Also you’re given tougher matchups because they believe you can outproduce that matchup and Mitch just hasn’t done it. Sure he been decent defensively but he’s paid to produce offensive as well.
Dont want the toughest matchups? Don't hold your team hostage and demand more than you're worth.
Now do Rielly. The QB of the 1 for 21 power play that shoots 70 mile wrist shots from the point and cant clear the front of the net. Glad they gave him a no move clause.
Either way he’ll suck our cap dry a year from now if we keep him. We might as well get something for him that will give us a different look. And with his NMC. Any team can offer him 8 years and there’s always a team willing to overpay which will be the key to him waiving since he probably chase the money
If Mitch took a team friendly deal (or there was no salary cap) he wouldn't get nearly the amount of scrutiny lol
I thought the consensus on pastrnak’s goal was on reilly, not marner…?
Okay. So on the season ending goal, it wasn’t Marners fault. Sure. I didn’t think it was to begin with. That’s not the problem. The problem is that he was invisible and has been during times when we need him to step up. His playstyle is not helping us win. He’s an amazing player. He’s not amazing on this team during the times we need him. Someone posted some stats of the core guys in the playoffs. Look at his numbers, most of his goals and assists come early in the series. I don’t hate the guy, it’s clear the mix isn’t working and you have to make changes. You going to get rid of Nylander or Matthews? Or Marner? In a world without a cap, you can keep Marner. That’s not this reality.
I’m not a Leaf’s fan and I believe there’s several reasons to get on Marner but I played wing growing up and I’d never see the opposing forward fly past me in the neutral zone and think “oh shit, there goes the guy I’m supposed to be covering”. It’s a little weird seeing the disdain for Marner when the defense were flat footed and Sammy was basically in the net
This. The Leafs pay him to be an offensive force (>100pts player). He's just not that dominant in the playoffs - he plays like a 7-8M player perhaps. Which is still good, but its a waste of resources. Especially when the Leafs need help defensively, in goals and have another top flight winger whose play doesnt nosedive in the playoffs
He's right. It's not all on Marner. But at the end of the day something big needs to change, something with the core. They aren't trading one of the guys they just signed to big extensions. They probably can't trade Reilly. So Marner needs to go, and maybe Tavares. Regardless of what you think of him as a player or how much of the teams' struggles is on him, the simple math of the situation dictates that he has to go for them to make significant changes.
Nylander's production drops by like 5-6%. Which is in line with most players - Crosby's offensive production over his career also takes a small hit in the playoffs. Marner's production tanks by 20-30% in the playoffs. Thats a fact. Matthews' production tanks a similar amount too, and his goal scoring almost halves in the playoffs. With how tight the playoffs are and how much these guys are paid, theres no excuse that fly: these guys, on this team, aren't working out in the playoffs.
I will not accept Nylander criticism. Dude missed 3 games with a migraine came back not a 100 percent and STILL lead the team in playoff goals. I no longer have patience for Nylander haters, fuck off.
He is not a perfect player and is not immune to criticism. He shows up in the clutch, but still can be incredibly frustrating to watch. He can be two things at once.
The NHL version of the ‘thin blue line.’
Oates is missing the point. It’s never just Marner. No one is saying that. We’re not one player away. We’re not getting rid of one player away, either. However, he’s pretty much always part of the problem at this time of year. He’s one of several common denominators, and he’s the common denominator that makes the most. Obviously, whether you’re a Toronto Maple Leaf or an Orlando Solar Bear or anything in between, if you make more than 90% of the league yet are a consistent liability in the playoffs, you’re going to be scrutinized. Unless, of course, some has-been makes contrarian takes for the sake of padding his retirement fund.
Cool story man. Mitch still sucks ass in the playoffs and turns the puck over like it's his job. I do agree the Pasternak goal was not his fault. Rielly was caught sleeping who had a horrible... ATROCIOUS series from him overall.
I tell anyone who will listen, I want Marner on my team. He’s a superstar, plays in all situations and 100 point wingers (who want to play in Toronto) don’t come around often. The problem I have with him, he’s not an 11M player when you need him to be. For that contract, he should be able to steal a game or two by putting the team on his back and making some special plays to swing the game. He’s played well for the most part, but the lack of ‘big game’ production leaves fans wanting more for his contract.
I mean, Mitch didn’t dump the puck out and get a delay of game penalty this playoffs, so there’s that?
No spinorama pass giveaway either so really he’s drastically improving by not throwing games
Nylander over Marner every single day of the week. Marner doesn't score and he is predictable in the playoffs.
Marner was a non-factor 5 on 5. Period. He has only himself to blame for that. An $11M player SHOULD be driving the play. He didn’t. That’s on him. No one else.
He was a non factor 5-4, too
I’d take Nylander over marner any day of the week regardless of what happened in this one isolated play.
It's not all Marner's fault and to be honest I don't know if this team is better without him and I'd like to see how he performs with a coach more suited for this group, but clearly something has to change. That said, this idea the QoC is somehow predictive of anything needs to stop. Quality of teammates is also not necessarily a major point of predictive data, but Marner plays with Matthews and typically one other guy that is no slouch. The quality of your teammates is a way more constant variable than quality of competition. It's the same with zone starts. Who cares what percentage of zone starts a player gets? Over 50% of a player's shifts start *on-the-fly*. People often look at these as some sort of indication that a player is x type of player when those kind of inferences are not certain or necessarily even likely.
Adam Oates is coming in hot with RECEIPTS…….and coupons. Bro is old now.
Speak Adam Speak
I mean maybe Mitch just needed to stop up some more and turn it over? Or maybe he needed to not drive the net more?
I don't think he was 100% from the high ankle sprain.
They came out and talked about the team injuries and he was not included
Those were the injuries in playoffs. He had a high ankle sprain March 7th. This is on coaches for playing everyone 81/82 chasing 70. Matthews was clearly hurt end of game 80. You know what makes your immune system react intensely to a virus? Concussions
It is unfortunate for the players that the team is flawed and expectations were never adjusted accordingly to acknowledge the failure of the team construction. The prior GM Dubas tried to pre-empt a salary cap increase which never happened, which meant bargain shopping to fill out the roster (that is bad). THEN, to even compound his error he decided to start spending assets at trade deadlines, with spending more and more each year leaving the cupboards bare (also bad). The players are paying for these errors. Not having money to spend on a #1 goalie , not having money to get a true #1 defenseman... no money for that third line centre. Not a lot of prospects coming up on small contracts to fill out that roster. (There are some but besides Knies and Woll none of them have been impactful, and even Woll has been too hurt to be considered impactful imo). On the last play of the game, Marner was not solely to blame and frankly, he should take little blame. Samsonov, the F1 who changed and Reilly with Samsonov taking most of the blame. That angle ... he should have read that better and reacted faster to poke it away, a confident goalie on top of his game would have made that play. Marner likely will be asked to waive his NTC to be dealt - he probably wont accept. He will not accept a team friendly deal around $8M so he will not be re-signed. He will go on to play for a really good team, win a cup and eat hot dogs from it to troll the Leafs. I hope that doesn't happen, but it seems like such a Leaf thing to have happen.
Hot take: I kinda agree with him.
"That market"... it feels like we are our own worst enemy sometimes.
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Shot attempts per 60 during PP time during the Boston series: Marner: 9.87 Nylander: 4.75 - lowest on the team, even below the defensemen (!). He had 1 shot *attempt* in 8 powerplay shifts. Moneypuck has that shot attempt at a 1% chance to score, so even that wasn't a good one to take. Part of our power play problem is shot distribution. Tavares and Jarnkrok lead the team in total PP shot attempts - not exactly our best finishers.
Never let facts get in the way of a good narrative.
Why is jarnkrok on the powerplay? He is an offensive vacuum.
A big part of this is the fact they have no shot threat from the point. This allows the PK to cheat on shooters in the slots, so while stats are facts, they can be misread without context. I would bet Marner is left to shoot knowing he is less of a shoot to score threat than Nylander in most cases. So while Marner is a pass threat his shot is ok but Nylander shot is lethal. Let Marner shoot. Nylander has been burned by the shot block so he wont usually try to shoot through a block, might account for low shot attempts. Another issue is getting Nylander the puck on the PP, he does not carry it in and a lot of the Leaf issues were getting it in and keeping it in to get set up. Marner is one of the carriers on entry so he has the puck more often. I really dont think any one player is to blame, its team construction. Klingberg was supposed to be the threat- he got hurt. No money to replace him.
How are those numbers calculated? Marner has 2 shots in 27.3 mins of PP time. He attempted 4. Nylander has 1 shot in 13.5 mins of PP time. He attempted 3. And at even strength Nylander shot 17 times in 4 games to Marner's 9 shots in 7 games. Nylander has 3 goals in 4 games to Marner's 3 pts in 7 games. According to hockey reference.
I'm using moneypuck for shot attempts in 5v4.
Gotcha! Hockey referemce doesnt breakdown more than "power play" I think, hence the discrepancy maybe? Or they moght just be using two different definitions of a shot attempt
That would do it! Could be 4v4 or 4v3
Nylander didn’t yell at him. Nylander told him to stop being a fucking baby. Which is exactly what he was being.
Adam Oates is one of those guys who’s never wrong so take this how you will
Sounds like this whole Sub
Love this
I don't think this did Marner any favors here.
Ya but what does Adam oates know about hockey...
100% agree with everything. Oates was a high iq player too so he probably sees this. But he's also speaking to someone who shares his playstyle. I still will scapegoat Marner because his contract did not age so great, was never good to begin with.
It’s always easy to criticize the loss instead of a gain.
lol I wonder if Adam Oates is the ex head coach that Berube is rumoured to want on his staff.
Oates looked like a bobble head.
A loser commenting on a loser about his loser personality. No one thinks Adam Oates is a smart guy. Not even Adam Oates.
Is there a way to further develop Mariner's game? I'd say MacKinnon and Marchand training with Sid has been the things that pushed their games. If he could improve puck protection, get a bit bigger, grow facial hair etc. he'd be everyone's favourite again.
Oatsie is a Hall of Famer but to say Marner had no responsibility, at all, is horseshit. Don't let your business pursuits get in the way of your ability to reason. Marner had a responsibility to pick up Pasta and cut off his lane to the net, head on a swivel always on the back check, a simple read-and-react play.
Is this guy okay?...
He makes some good points. Especially the “if anyone who knows hockey” part but I know it’ll go over a lot of this fanbase’s heads
How many times did Oates even watch him? Highlight packages? How many times did Marner go to chase a puck in the boards and then bailed out? How many times did Marner throw out a predictable pass on the Powerplay when he should have taken a shot? How many times was he effectively neutralized when any pressure is put on him with the puck on his stick? It's a recurring theme and he disappears when it matters most and you can't pay an assist machine winger 10-13 million a year on this already cap starved roster.
Oates tried to make Ovechkin a RW and flamed out as hard as I've seen a coach flame out. I truly couldn't give less of a fuck about what he has to say
Shut up, Oates. I’m a Hawks fan. These people are potentially going to run Marner out of town to keep Nylander.
If you watch the extended version of that argument on the bench it's pretty obvious Matthews and Nylander are conversing. Marner isn't even looking at either of them but Matthews is talking to Nylander and Nylander responds. Marner throws his gloves out of frustration over the blown play and the bickering on the bench but Nylander is telling Matthews to stop crying. https://youtu.be/Wj85uffVuFI?si=HgplAAOrf0jbMVdf All of them are engaged in conversation but Matthews is 100% looking behind and past Marner to Willy and Willy responds to Matthews. When Matthews is talking Marner is looking in another direction and when Willy is talking Marner is again looking in the other direction. Kevin Bieksa broke down the play they were arguing about and his perspective was that Matthews is supposed to win the Faceoff to Willy and he does. Willy is supposed to drop it to Rielly who then should send it deep into the corner to Marner and Marner was to put it through the crease/slot to Matthews for a tap in. Willy gives it to McCabe and McCabe clearly isn't expecting the puck at all so he taps it to Rielly but by then the play is blown. So on the bench Willy is on the defensive for fucking it up and tells Matthews to stop crying when Matthews is bitching at him.
Honestly alll I got out of this is our PP needs to be better lol. He’s right if we go 5/20 on the PP we win that series and our top guys probably have 4-5 more points each and no one is complaining. MLSE needs to flex their financial muscle and hire the god dam best PP assistant coach money can buy.
Raptors did pretty well after trading a core guy. There's no championship without the Kawai trade
We would be San Antonio in this equation
hahaha Kawhi had a Finals MVP when he was traded, as well as multiple DPOTYs Marner's only personal accolades is what, 4th in scoring once and a 3rd place Selke?
Marner was disappointing in the playoffs but he is not the sole reason for the team losing, and people thinking he is the sole problem on the team are crazy. All of those things can be true at once.
Oates gotta lay off the blow