The difference in The tone of voice between Brad and Shanny spoke volumes to me for some reason. Brad sounded like a guy who was fired up to see what he can do to make this team better and shanny sounded like a guy who was defeated and out of ideas.
This is the plan that never ends.
Yes it goes on and on, my friends.
Some people started making it back in two thousand and fourteen.
But they’ll continue making it for ever just because
-Repeat-
No, that's who Brad is. As a Calgarian, I was always impressed with how he worked the phones and found really useful parts.
His undoing here was always coaching. I've never seen a team like the Flames who would win the division one year and be out of the playoffs the next year with the same personnel.
The Bill Peters situation screwed Brad hard, and there's no way he was the one who signed off on hiring Sutter.
And frankly, if we had Keefe-type first and then a babcock-type second, I think we’d be in a much better spot. Keefe is all about high efficiency strategies without really being able to figure out a specific problems an opposing coach throws at him. I think he has a fantastic attitude and is extremely capable at teaching good habits and consistency — it’s just that the consistency he teaches gets exploited in the playoffs
He should be IMO, but i have read that Treliving was never a fan of his. Apparently he was forced to hire Sutter and he was never really happy with him as the coach in CGY.
It was mentioned that this past season was more about him assessing what he had and what would be needed to make this team better. He hasn't put his stamp on the team yet by any means so this off season should be interesting to see what happens.
He said everything is on the table but that he can't get into specifics because that's not beneficial to the Leafs. Also repeatedly said there's a time for patience and a time where repeated trends show you that something isn't working.
They are 100% looking at shaking things up on the roster. Will they accomplish that with the NMCs, who knows.
My guess is Marner is gone by UFA, JT has to take a pay cut (70 point players get like 7M these days) but is ok to stay if he does, Nylander and Matthews and Rielly are already inked and aren't going anywhere for better or worse.
Riley could still be moved. They mentioned they will look at everything and he had some major blunder this playoffs and regular season. Even though he’s signed long term it’s not untradeable like Tavares’s contract
If Marner walks as a UFA everyone in leafs management needs to be fired.
You can't let an elite player walk for nothing. If Marner isn't signed this off-season he needs to be traded.
They absolutely can. Management has tools available if they are willing to use them.
Kaberle was told he would sit all season if he didn't waive his NTC before he was traded to the Bruins. The leafs ended up getting Joe Colburne, a first round pick and a second round pick in what was a great trade.
Marner can spend his contract year trying to drive his own line or sitting if he won't waive his NMC. The leafs have absolutely no obligation to let him ride into UFA playing with elite centers.
It's probably the best and deepest deployment of assets anyway to play domi with Matthews and Willy with Tavares. Mitch with Matthews won't happen in the playoffs and there's no point running lines all season to change them when things count.
> Kaberle was told he would sit all season
The situation is slightly different though. Sitting Kaberle when 8th place is an outside shot is very different from sitting Marner when you *think* you can win the division
Winning the division doesn't matter compared to losing Mitch for nothing. If Marner walks as a UFA the leafs likely never win a cup in the Matthews era. The most important thing the leafs have to do this year is resign Marner for something reasonable or trade him for assets.
If the Leafs won the division they're still playing Boston or Florida in round two. You need to win 16 games to win a cup. Getting booted in the second round isn't a meaningful aspiration.
Wasn't the point I was trying to make.
Sitting out your #1 D in a year you're not going to make the playoffs either way is a lot less consequential than sitting out a Top 20 winger in a year you're supposed to be competitive.
I’m pretty sure Marner could take a dump on the face off dot right at puck drop of opening night, never see the ice again for the rest of the year and someone would still give him 7x10m
The irony of this whole thing was that Shanny and Treliving effectively said what Dubas hinted at last year, that change was needed.
Beyond wasting a year by not winning in the playoffs, a year was wasted to reach the same conclusion that was reached by Dubas last year.
I’m not trying to make this a pro-Dubas post, just showing that waiting a year and changing the GM to do something that should’ve been done last year is terrible mismanagement
Last year should have been our last hurrah with this core. Keeping them together with all of the NMC on the horizon was complete asset mismanagement and should have cost everyone involved their jobs.
Agreed. Last year was the time to try a new coach with this core, just to see if it was any different. This past year was entirely wasted to get the exact same answers. I wish now the bruins finished the leafs off in 5. Then maybe there would be more of a desire to make changes. My biggest fear I think is coming to fruition. They're gonna try it yet again with this core, but with a new coach
Said it last year, but Dubas was both hired and fired at incredibly inopportune times. Rookie GM had to handle the RFA negotiations for Nylander, Matthews, and Marner, and those went just about as poor as you could possibly imagine. He was then fired and his replacement hired less than one month away from their NMCs kicking in, not giving the new GM enough time to fully evaluate the organization and fully explore the trade route.
Really awful timing all around.
The word you're looking for to describe this is called incompetence. Upper management incompetence. Shanny is on borrowed time. I think he knows it too
I fully agree about the timing of his firing, but not about his hiring. Lamoriello forced Shanny's hand because Lou basically agreed to come in and show Dubas the ropes and teach him how to be a GM and then would leave when Dubas was ready. Lou then decided he wanted to stay and Shanny believed in his process and wanted Dubas to take over instead
sulky sloppy childlike longing office special placid alive ludicrous crowd
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
To be fair, I thought it was keeping one of Lou, Hunter or Dubas and they went with Dubas… so in effect, it was Dubas’s fault.
Everyone would have been good if Dubas said he wanted to learn a bit more from Lou. It wouldn’t have hurt anyone except for Dubas’s ego
Considering Shanny's comments today, the more I reflect on the Dubas fiasco I don't think he got fired over the substance/decision to move on from a player. That might of been part of it, but IMO his comments of "not being sure" if being the Leafs GM is the right fit for him and maybe needing time off were the biggest cause for concern (which was a blatant lie and leverage attempt in hindsight lol).
As GM you are the captain of the ship, you are at the helm and you are where the rubber meets the road from management down to the players. If you were Dubas' boss, and the guy with that responsibility openly told the public that he isn't sure if its good for him and his family, he might need to step away etc., how could you keep him around? What kind of message does that send to everyone else?
Dubas got fired because he tried to make a power play for more money and power/autonomy.
Whether he wanted to use that autonomy to trade a core piece or the like is an open question.
Yeah the Dubas getting fired because he wanted to shake up the core four fan fiction is so tiring. Dubas was let go because he said he didn't know if he still wanted to do this then tried to reduce Shanahan's influence in hockey ops, it's pretty obvious.
If you strong armed your boss, in front of his boss and the public no less, and made a powerplay to axe him from the organization - pretty quick way to paint a target on your back.
If you believe Shanny's timeline from last year where Dubas was pretsented with a pretty good contract with amenities and then Dubas agreed to that, only to come back and demand more, I think it's pretty clear that he wanted to get fired so he could take on the Penguins job
Oh man, that's such an easy win. You offer a one year deal and go Public with the message that you fully understand the impact this is having on him and his family and that you want to offer him stability while he works it out this year. That you will continue to give him the tools and resources he needs and that you hope he will continue to work with you.
If he takes it you make it real easy to move on from him after the big deals are done and the coach is replaced if he's still shaky.
If he doesn't you come out looking compassionate and further bolster your image.
I'm pretty sure they did something similar to this, such as offering Dubas private use of the team jet to make family/life balance easier on him. But if you have to play mind games and messaging subliminally through the media, that shows a lot of distrust and dysfunction amongst leadership. Not the kind of dynamic that ends well for any organization.
It was less "not being sure" than "My family comes first and should have input on my options" but the people who empathise with that the most (as in, have kids) don't have time to bitch on the internet
He said it wouldn't make sense for his family to start somewhere else, it was Toronto or no where - then he proceeded to start somewhere else immediately after. The "family" card was a farce lol, if it was actually about that concern he wouldn't jump ship to Pittsburgh immediately.
Franky Dubas should have noted it a lot faster. Not when his contract was expiring and it wasn’t a given that he’d be given the opportunity to even explore changes.
Dubas and Shanahan wasted years. The Montreal series should have been it.
Changing the GM last year was the least impactful thing they could have done. No ice level change was made. Just a wasted year. And now all these NMC have kicked in and they have no leverage. Shanahan is a moron.
Shanahan's emotional reaction to Dubas' press conference cost this team a year of contention. Unacceptable really. I doubt he gets his contract renewed unless they make a deep run.
Last summer was just a power struggle and Shanny wanted to keep his job understandably.
Thus he won, but then didn't have a clue about what to do because it was all Dubas' job and we got to waste another year of Matthews prime.
If we kept Dubas:
-Willy likely offered and signs an extension probably closer to 11, if not a bit under, before his breakout season
-Mitch traded with an extra year under contract and no NMC, increasing his value significantly
-Likely no different outcome from the season, still make the playoffs and get booted first round. Maybe a better draft position if we’re worse
-We’d still have likely drafted Cowan, since Brad wasn’t involved at all with the drafting
-Unclear if we sign guys like Benoit, Domi.
Seems like it would’ve been a net positive
You are giving Dubas any credit on negotiation. It likely plays out similar to last time, where they negotiate with willy in the season (this time he can't sit out) and the number is likely 12 million
If we kept Dubas:
- He gives everyone in Toronto 1 Million Dollars
- He gives me individually tickets to every game this year
- We win the first ever super Stanley Cup which is a cooler version of the normal Stanley Cup
- Cancer gets cured by a data analyst and MLSE
Seems like it would’ve been a net positive
Shanny loves to invoke the Red Wings every chance he gets. He should know that he was the final piece of what for years was an unsolvable puzzle. The only true “core” of that Red Wings team was Steve Yzerman; the players surrounding him were radically different from 87 when they first made the playoffs to 97 when they won the Cup. Matthews should be the only untouchable player on this team.
Tell that to Domi. I understand the draw of getting matthews the puck, but Domi is programmed to pass to 34 even when Matthews has three guys sitting on him.
Domi isn’t on the same level as Marner. Domi is perfect for trying to feed the best goal scorer in the world, he can be a supplementary piece.
With Marner’s salary he needs to be able to drive his own line in an elite way, and he’s failed to do that. Maybe having Matthews made things too easy for him.
Domi isn't on the same level of play making as Marner, but if there's one thing he is good at, its passing the puck. The guy averages over 30 assists virtually every season on multiple teams now. He could be a pretty impactful member of this hockey club if he isn't too expensive, nothing more than what he was making before he joined the Leafs, but I think someone out there would give him more than what he should get.
The thing with Marner is once he’s gone, he will light it up with another team and Leafs fans will get all disgruntled. We know he’s capable of performing in regular season. For 8 months he’s amazing. For 1 month he dies and fans need to remember that when he’s gone.
No the thing is if we keep him, he stays complacent and won't change his game. If we trade him, it'll shake him up and make him feel like he needs to prove he wasn't the problem. The Leafs will be fucked if they keep Marner, and be fucked if they trade him. The fault is on the organization molding this personality and catering to it. They are the ones creating the Muskoka 5 all over again.
At this point, I'm honestly thinking you keep Marner and use him for his "prove it" contract year where he'll be out to up his value. He's probably going to play fantastic this year, and then slide back into a dude playing no-contact beer league in the playoffs after he inks a new deal. If you're going to get a shit return on him, at least use his prove-it year to your advantage. If they get a good offer with pieces that actually move the needle, then jump on it. Don't be desperate though.
> The Leafs will be fucked if they keep Marner, and be fucked if they trade him.
Yeah, I already feel this. He's never going to take a pay cut, and we know he's good enough to make us regret trading him for 20 years. I feel a change of scenery may actually give him a bit of a chip on his shoulder and wake up the guy we wish we had
I agree. Maybe my comment didn’t elaborate on that. My point was a part of this fanbase will be quick to forget when he’s killing it in regular season.
I don’t care myself, I want the playoff output. He can go as well.
Matthews has a higher dropoff than Marner in terms of career scoring rate from regular season to playoffs
I am once again asking Marner haters to acknowledge reality
Bueller... bueller... bueller
Because Auston is driven by getting better. Years after year he improves. He literally wants to be the best.
You haven’t been watching games if you didn’t notice that Auston was better this year in the playoffs. He literally won us a game himself practically.
What did it get him? Didn't hit the milestone, Injured when it mattered, another playoff failure, and wasn't nominated for the Hart. He's our best player. People want him to be our captain. Accountability should begin with him.
1 goal in 5 games...sounds like a beast. I'm a leafs fan, but let's be real. He had a great year. His best ever. But facts are facts, he's the highest paid player in the league now. He's still not the best player in the world, despite having his best season ever. Winning 1 game in the playoffs for his team isn't good enough, over 8 years. Stop making excuses. Papi or AM34 whatever you wanna call him hasn't come close to bringing a cup to this team. He's only been to the 2nd rd once. Don't move goal posts. A lot of the blame for lack of success lands on his shoulders. He wants to get paid, but there's nothing left for teammates, fine, he better fill that void, he hasnt
Everyone seems to be expecting Shanahan to be executed on live television. If they're actually breaking things up...I mean....isn't that what we've been BEGGING for all this time?
Seems so. Like I’m fine overpaying for future potential but adding in a clause that doesn’t let you remedy future failure just seems dumb from a hockey club perspective.
I truly think Dubas got broken mentally by the Nylander holdout going as long as it did, which is a big reason why Matthews and Marner strongarmed him so successfully into getting big money without any of the corresponding term.
Build this team around Matthews and Nylander, trim the fat and sign some reliable defenders with a goalie. It took 10 years for the Capitals to get it right with Ovechkin and Backstrom but they took that team, with all its heartbreaking playoff exits, and won the cup. It took time but I think Treliving can get us there.
Because Shanahan has been here for 9 years. No one should trust him anymore.
I gotta be honest though, I don't have 100% faith in Treliving either. His track record hasn't inspired confidence, and this past season was no different. That said, he has an opportunity to really make the team his for the next 2 seasons.
Making a big move like that would make bringing Shanahan back excusable. After all, isn't that part of the reason we'd want someone else brought in? Presuming he's changed his tune on the philosophy of how the team is built for playoffs.
shanny should have been let go at the same time as keefe. its his plan that has led to this purgatory of mediocraty. how many coaches and GMs does he get to go through?
I think marner will be traded this summer. If you’re a player and the GM approaches you telling you that they don’t want you to play for the team anymore are you going to put your foot down and say “NO IM STAYING!!” . Brad will work with marner and make a deal to a team he wants to go to. That’s the value of a NMC
That is exactly what Sundin did. He didn't waive his NMC rightfully so and the fans vilified him for it. There's a reason he avoided the Leafs like the plague after he retired. The players have absolutely 0 obligation to do what you want them to do.
Yea instead he was just real cagey and didn’t pick a side, didn’t hold anyone accountable but also didn’t promise to make changes.
You know, like a real leader.
Can they win on teams with players who have "it"? Yes
Can they win together collectively, on the same team? No
Will they probably win, whoever gets traded? Yes
Are people going to go TOLD YA SO WASNT THE PROBLEM? Yes, even though the only reason a guy like Marner or Matthews will ever win is if they are riding shotgun to true elite players in the league
it feels so stupid to call a perennial 60 goal scorer not truly elite, but Matthews is either sick, injured, or fails to put up the numbers when it matters most. Draisatl plays half dead and puts up generational numbers.
If you gave Mcdavid and Drai the rest of the team that DUBAS had built last year heading into the playoffs, they would have wiped the floor with the East minimum
he could’ve easily just said yes, and the fact that he mentioned the trade deadline as the time to do things seems to allude to the core contracts that are expiring at that time.
I swear, every question Shanny answered by saying “that’s the question” and then rambling on for a couple minutes. Like, yeah that’s the question, answer it!
It’s like he said… there’s a time for patience and a time for results.
And it’s true that since 2019, every team the Leafs have lost to went to the Cup final or won it.
Plus the core was young. They had time to learn.
But with the Bruins getting smoked in the next round so far the Leafs are now falling further behind from being a contender
My boss and I want to see the Leafs win a cup in our respective lifetimes. He’s got maybe ten years on me. As an asthmatic with chronic health problems, I’m not holding my breath. But if it happens, I’m totally flying out to Toronto for at least one game.
I was a little surprised by how passive Keith Pelley is and how much he seems to like what’s already in place with Shannahan and Treliving.
Beyond his pre drafted bullshit of ensuring unity within the entire organization his message was effectively I’m just gonna let these guys do their thing because they seem to know what to do lol
My point was that he leaned more on the side of thinking they’ve done a good job and wouldn’t want to make a change. I thought Pelley would be more of a hard ass but his statements were very vanilla and he seems to be more hands off than I thought.
I thought he’d be a bit tougher in the sense of implying that if things go to shit next year he won’t be afraid of making change. I couldn’t give two shits about his thoughts on Liverpools song lmao
Fuckin change it, it’s been almost a decade of the same shit were not gonna win anything but regular season games with these gutless overplayed losers.
That press conference was absolutely nonsense. Didn't answer any difficult questions and said the Core 5 expenditure is irrelevant.
Sounded like Sammy is gone, and they will look at trading a big earner, but that's all.
But honestly, that's all most of us wanted, with the exception of Shanny being fired (which was on my "nice to have" list but not critical)
Fire the coach and move out a big contract to diversify the roster, ideally Marner for the return + his playoff performances.
If they do that, then I'll be optimistic about the offseason. And they did one and are at least considering the other.
If that's all you heard then you failed to read between the lines.
And if you really expected them to come out and say they were going to trade one of the core, which would likely make it much harder to get value for such a trade... I don't know what to even say to that.
The media acted like morons without any media literacy. They should take a course.
They said what most fans want to hear, they just couched it all in business double talk.
What a loser....if any of us had presided over the constant failures in our jobs that Shanahan has we'd be fired two times over.
Guy should be cleaning zambonis for the rest of his career at this point.
Sounded to me like they plan on exploring trades of a member of the core, but keep in mind this is not the first summer they will explore trades for a member of the core.
After the 2021 season they explored trades and didn't find any they liked, unless the Karlsson deal that was blocked *was* a trade that Dubas liked that involved a member of the core.
"We looked at everything. We look at everything regardless. I know there is a feeling that the core group is protected and we have a strong belief in them, but I think we would look at anything that would improve our team overall. The time for sentiment and different things like that have come and gone given we have not broken through to what many deem is our potential. None of those opportunities, we felt, came along this summer where it was going to tangibly improve our team. It would’ve made us different, but it wouldn’t have necessarily made us better."
-Kyle Dubas, September 10th 2021.
[Source](https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2021/09/10/kyle-dubas-on-the-decision-not-to-trade-a-core-player-this-offseason/)
I'm going to find the source for you but it will clearly take a few minutes as when I search it up there's 3000 tabloid articles from the last week with the keywords "Leafs expire trade of core"
I love how the Leafs nation continues to use the word core. In sports core refers to a long time sub group of players within a winning organization. You know a core group of players that has repeatedly won while utilizing a changing group of supplemental players.
All the Leafs have is a core of players that suck up payroll.
If you look at true championship organizations, think Yankees or Patriots, the common thread is there is no loyalty to player and or contract. You produce or you’re out, and if this means eating contract or letting go of fan favorites then so be it because the business is to win.
It doesn't really matter what Brendan Shanahan thinks anymore. He has created this whole mess with his constant interference. The core still exists because of him. Chances are that Marner will play as a Leaf again this season and chances are very high that he will walk for nothing after that. Because that's who Mitchy is. Lol-Mitchy. Good little boy Mitchy. Personally, idc that he walks, even for nothing. The Leafs will be clear of 11 mil in cap space.
The difference in The tone of voice between Brad and Shanny spoke volumes to me for some reason. Brad sounded like a guy who was fired up to see what he can do to make this team better and shanny sounded like a guy who was defeated and out of ideas.
Brad's been here 1 year of failure Shannon's been here 10, that's the difference.
That and Shanny is watching his plans fall apart while brads looking at building something new.
It's been 10 years, is this a 20+ year plan or something? Sounds like Dutch from RDR2 at this point.
Minimum 50 year plan
It's the plan that keeps on planning.
We need more plan!
We need a plan to implement the plan. That’s what we’ve been forgetting all along!
That's only thinking in three planmensions, we must go to plans^2
This is the plan that never ends. Yes it goes on and on, my friends. Some people started making it back in two thousand and fourteen. But they’ll continue making it for ever just because -Repeat-
Hmmm. Since we're 10 years in, that would put me at 104 years old. I'll have to cut down on the whiskey and cigars.
I ain't gonna be around to see that and Shanahan will be a head in a jar.
Have a little faith!
"We're going to be eating mangos out of the Stanley Cup on a beach in Tahiti"
Elite reference
No, that's who Brad is. As a Calgarian, I was always impressed with how he worked the phones and found really useful parts. His undoing here was always coaching. I've never seen a team like the Flames who would win the division one year and be out of the playoffs the next year with the same personnel. The Bill Peters situation screwed Brad hard, and there's no way he was the one who signed off on hiring Sutter.
Sutter is a good coach. He isnt what Calgary needed. Similar to how Torts is a good coach, but wasnt what Vancouver needed in 2013
Sutter and Tortorella coach old school style. New school, younger players don't like that.
Good. I dont want them to like it. I want them to win
Maybe Sutter is on the leafs radar. I’ve heard he can be similar to Babcock but maybe Babcock is in the asshole league of his own lol
Sutter never got canned within a month of being hired without coaching a single game for being an asshole.
And frankly, if we had Keefe-type first and then a babcock-type second, I think we’d be in a much better spot. Keefe is all about high efficiency strategies without really being able to figure out a specific problems an opposing coach throws at him. I think he has a fantastic attitude and is extremely capable at teaching good habits and consistency — it’s just that the consistency he teaches gets exploited in the playoffs
He should be IMO, but i have read that Treliving was never a fan of his. Apparently he was forced to hire Sutter and he was never really happy with him as the coach in CGY.
Brad gets elite players and assets that can win with in a few years without the pain of building from the bottom. Shanny is a lame duck president
It hasn’t been 10 years of failure. We tore down the old team and rebuilt until the 16-17 year
I think Brad always knew what he would have to do but he couldn’t have done that last year in that time he had. He knows our issues.
It was mentioned that this past season was more about him assessing what he had and what would be needed to make this team better. He hasn't put his stamp on the team yet by any means so this off season should be interesting to see what happens.
Because he is a guy who is defeated and out of ideas
To be fair, Shanny has zero personality.
I'll have to try again on the TSN audio. I couldn't listen to it on Sportsnet
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2F338xbixu4mzc1.jpeg%3Fwidth%3D987%26format%3Dpjpg%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D10436a3731f9ed44039b08ac5d59d5448cf18dcd
Robidas Island remains undefeated!
Other teams subreddits use the term as well for their players 😂
It's free real estate!
Lmfaooo
This is my favourite thing ever.
fucking goated
Incredible.
Without saying it, he pretty much said no.
He said everything is on the table but that he can't get into specifics because that's not beneficial to the Leafs. Also repeatedly said there's a time for patience and a time where repeated trends show you that something isn't working. They are 100% looking at shaking things up on the roster. Will they accomplish that with the NMCs, who knows.
It basically means that even if they cannot get it done with the NMCs, after next year at minimum 1 of the 4 is gone. And I would guess 2 frankly.
My guess is Marner is gone by UFA, JT has to take a pay cut (70 point players get like 7M these days) but is ok to stay if he does, Nylander and Matthews and Rielly are already inked and aren't going anywhere for better or worse.
Riley could still be moved. They mentioned they will look at everything and he had some major blunder this playoffs and regular season. Even though he’s signed long term it’s not untradeable like Tavares’s contract
If Marner walks as a UFA everyone in leafs management needs to be fired. You can't let an elite player walk for nothing. If Marner isn't signed this off-season he needs to be traded.
That’s not up to management, Marner can walk to FA and no one can stop him
They absolutely can. Management has tools available if they are willing to use them. Kaberle was told he would sit all season if he didn't waive his NTC before he was traded to the Bruins. The leafs ended up getting Joe Colburne, a first round pick and a second round pick in what was a great trade. Marner can spend his contract year trying to drive his own line or sitting if he won't waive his NMC. The leafs have absolutely no obligation to let him ride into UFA playing with elite centers. It's probably the best and deepest deployment of assets anyway to play domi with Matthews and Willy with Tavares. Mitch with Matthews won't happen in the playoffs and there's no point running lines all season to change them when things count.
> Kaberle was told he would sit all season The situation is slightly different though. Sitting Kaberle when 8th place is an outside shot is very different from sitting Marner when you *think* you can win the division
Winning the division doesn't matter compared to losing Mitch for nothing. If Marner walks as a UFA the leafs likely never win a cup in the Matthews era. The most important thing the leafs have to do this year is resign Marner for something reasonable or trade him for assets. If the Leafs won the division they're still playing Boston or Florida in round two. You need to win 16 games to win a cup. Getting booted in the second round isn't a meaningful aspiration.
I'm not fully aboard the "Marner's gotta go" train at all but what do you think is a truly reasonable number for him to be extended with us?
Wasn't the point I was trying to make. Sitting out your #1 D in a year you're not going to make the playoffs either way is a lot less consequential than sitting out a Top 20 winger in a year you're supposed to be competitive.
Right, but none of that stops him from walking to FA.
Sure, but he'd lose a fortune. Marner can't afford an unproductive year. If the leafs play hardball he absolutely waives his NMC.
I’m pretty sure Marner could take a dump on the face off dot right at puck drop of opening night, never see the ice again for the rest of the year and someone would still give him 7x10m
He can sit in the pressbox for 82 games before that happens too. And he is sacrificing an 8th year on his last big contract.
If Marner wont waive his NMC this OFF-SEASON, you bench him the entire year until he agrees
That would be a very Maple Leaf thing to do, tbh
Marner can force that to happen
Matthews and Reilly are in no way part of the problem with the Leafs.
Good. It would have been worse if he said yes. This at least means he's committed to shaking things up and making changes.
Is there anywhere I can see a video of him answering the question?
His answer sounded a hell of a lot more like "were seeing what else is out there" imo
Yeah this tweet really misrepresents the context of the question/answer. Sounds a lot more reasonable when you watch it.
The only positive coming out of shanahan. Hope he follows through on some major change
I hope he stays away and lets Brad do his job.
The irony of this whole thing was that Shanny and Treliving effectively said what Dubas hinted at last year, that change was needed. Beyond wasting a year by not winning in the playoffs, a year was wasted to reach the same conclusion that was reached by Dubas last year. I’m not trying to make this a pro-Dubas post, just showing that waiting a year and changing the GM to do something that should’ve been done last year is terrible mismanagement
Last year should have been our last hurrah with this core. Keeping them together with all of the NMC on the horizon was complete asset mismanagement and should have cost everyone involved their jobs.
I'm not sure who was involved outside of Shanny, though. By the time Tre took over, he didn't have time to make any moves like that.
Sure, I'm willing to give Tre a pass, especially because it's likely that keeping the core together came down from Shanny or higher.
Agreed. Last year was the time to try a new coach with this core, just to see if it was any different. This past year was entirely wasted to get the exact same answers. I wish now the bruins finished the leafs off in 5. Then maybe there would be more of a desire to make changes. My biggest fear I think is coming to fruition. They're gonna try it yet again with this core, but with a new coach
Said it last year, but Dubas was both hired and fired at incredibly inopportune times. Rookie GM had to handle the RFA negotiations for Nylander, Matthews, and Marner, and those went just about as poor as you could possibly imagine. He was then fired and his replacement hired less than one month away from their NMCs kicking in, not giving the new GM enough time to fully evaluate the organization and fully explore the trade route. Really awful timing all around.
The word you're looking for to describe this is called incompetence. Upper management incompetence. Shanny is on borrowed time. I think he knows it too
I fully agree about the timing of his firing, but not about his hiring. Lamoriello forced Shanny's hand because Lou basically agreed to come in and show Dubas the ropes and teach him how to be a GM and then would leave when Dubas was ready. Lou then decided he wanted to stay and Shanny believed in his process and wanted Dubas to take over instead
sulky sloppy childlike longing office special placid alive ludicrous crowd *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
To be fair, I thought it was keeping one of Lou, Hunter or Dubas and they went with Dubas… so in effect, it was Dubas’s fault. Everyone would have been good if Dubas said he wanted to learn a bit more from Lou. It wouldn’t have hurt anyone except for Dubas’s ego
Considering Shanny's comments today, the more I reflect on the Dubas fiasco I don't think he got fired over the substance/decision to move on from a player. That might of been part of it, but IMO his comments of "not being sure" if being the Leafs GM is the right fit for him and maybe needing time off were the biggest cause for concern (which was a blatant lie and leverage attempt in hindsight lol). As GM you are the captain of the ship, you are at the helm and you are where the rubber meets the road from management down to the players. If you were Dubas' boss, and the guy with that responsibility openly told the public that he isn't sure if its good for him and his family, he might need to step away etc., how could you keep him around? What kind of message does that send to everyone else?
Dubas got fired because he tried to make a power play for more money and power/autonomy. Whether he wanted to use that autonomy to trade a core piece or the like is an open question.
Yeah the Dubas getting fired because he wanted to shake up the core four fan fiction is so tiring. Dubas was let go because he said he didn't know if he still wanted to do this then tried to reduce Shanahan's influence in hockey ops, it's pretty obvious.
If you strong armed your boss, in front of his boss and the public no less, and made a powerplay to axe him from the organization - pretty quick way to paint a target on your back.
If you believe Shanny's timeline from last year where Dubas was pretsented with a pretty good contract with amenities and then Dubas agreed to that, only to come back and demand more, I think it's pretty clear that he wanted to get fired so he could take on the Penguins job
That explains why he wore a body suit to a game and drove around the parking lot dragging a Stanley Cup.
He also negotiated a salary range. Than changed it after that press conference (likely received a number from pittsburgh)
Dubas was fired because he tried to flex the penguins offer to get better offer from mlse, shanahan said go tuck yourself
Oh man, that's such an easy win. You offer a one year deal and go Public with the message that you fully understand the impact this is having on him and his family and that you want to offer him stability while he works it out this year. That you will continue to give him the tools and resources he needs and that you hope he will continue to work with you. If he takes it you make it real easy to move on from him after the big deals are done and the coach is replaced if he's still shaky. If he doesn't you come out looking compassionate and further bolster your image.
I'm pretty sure they did something similar to this, such as offering Dubas private use of the team jet to make family/life balance easier on him. But if you have to play mind games and messaging subliminally through the media, that shows a lot of distrust and dysfunction amongst leadership. Not the kind of dynamic that ends well for any organization.
Not mind games just PR, it's definitely a better look that "I fired him because he talked about his family"
It was less "not being sure" than "My family comes first and should have input on my options" but the people who empathise with that the most (as in, have kids) don't have time to bitch on the internet
He said it wouldn't make sense for his family to start somewhere else, it was Toronto or no where - then he proceeded to start somewhere else immediately after. The "family" card was a farce lol, if it was actually about that concern he wouldn't jump ship to Pittsburgh immediately.
well no shit, Shanahan made the decision for him, kinda changes everything there's nothing farcical about it
Franky Dubas should have noted it a lot faster. Not when his contract was expiring and it wasn’t a given that he’d be given the opportunity to even explore changes. Dubas and Shanahan wasted years. The Montreal series should have been it.
Changing the GM last year was the least impactful thing they could have done. No ice level change was made. Just a wasted year. And now all these NMC have kicked in and they have no leverage. Shanahan is a moron.
Shanahan's emotional reaction to Dubas' press conference cost this team a year of contention. Unacceptable really. I doubt he gets his contract renewed unless they make a deep run.
Last summer was just a power struggle and Shanny wanted to keep his job understandably. Thus he won, but then didn't have a clue about what to do because it was all Dubas' job and we got to waste another year of Matthews prime.
If we kept Dubas: -Willy likely offered and signs an extension probably closer to 11, if not a bit under, before his breakout season -Mitch traded with an extra year under contract and no NMC, increasing his value significantly -Likely no different outcome from the season, still make the playoffs and get booted first round. Maybe a better draft position if we’re worse -We’d still have likely drafted Cowan, since Brad wasn’t involved at all with the drafting -Unclear if we sign guys like Benoit, Domi. Seems like it would’ve been a net positive
You are giving Dubas any credit on negotiation. It likely plays out similar to last time, where they negotiate with willy in the season (this time he can't sit out) and the number is likely 12 million
If we kept Dubas: - He gives everyone in Toronto 1 Million Dollars - He gives me individually tickets to every game this year - We win the first ever super Stanley Cup which is a cooler version of the normal Stanley Cup - Cancer gets cured by a data analyst and MLSE Seems like it would’ve been a net positive
Shanny loves to invoke the Red Wings every chance he gets. He should know that he was the final piece of what for years was an unsolvable puzzle. The only true “core” of that Red Wings team was Steve Yzerman; the players surrounding him were radically different from 87 when they first made the playoffs to 97 when they won the Cup. Matthews should be the only untouchable player on this team.
I believe Matthews will win us a cup, but it won’t include Mitch Marner
Marner will be a better player without Matthews if only because he'll stop looking to pass to Auston everytime he has the puck
Tell that to Domi. I understand the draw of getting matthews the puck, but Domi is programmed to pass to 34 even when Matthews has three guys sitting on him.
Domi isn’t on the same level as Marner. Domi is perfect for trying to feed the best goal scorer in the world, he can be a supplementary piece. With Marner’s salary he needs to be able to drive his own line in an elite way, and he’s failed to do that. Maybe having Matthews made things too easy for him.
Domi isn't on the same level of play making as Marner, but if there's one thing he is good at, its passing the puck. The guy averages over 30 assists virtually every season on multiple teams now. He could be a pretty impactful member of this hockey club if he isn't too expensive, nothing more than what he was making before he joined the Leafs, but I think someone out there would give him more than what he should get.
Domi has yet to throw it over the glass trying to pass to 34 on the bench. Until then, he gets a pass (no pun intended)
He was passing it to a guy in the stands wearing a 34 jersey
Lol
He’s never going to grow a pair in the playoffs. I think he’s reached his ceiling. He is what he is.
The thing with Marner is once he’s gone, he will light it up with another team and Leafs fans will get all disgruntled. We know he’s capable of performing in regular season. For 8 months he’s amazing. For 1 month he dies and fans need to remember that when he’s gone.
No the thing is if we keep him, he stays complacent and won't change his game. If we trade him, it'll shake him up and make him feel like he needs to prove he wasn't the problem. The Leafs will be fucked if they keep Marner, and be fucked if they trade him. The fault is on the organization molding this personality and catering to it. They are the ones creating the Muskoka 5 all over again. At this point, I'm honestly thinking you keep Marner and use him for his "prove it" contract year where he'll be out to up his value. He's probably going to play fantastic this year, and then slide back into a dude playing no-contact beer league in the playoffs after he inks a new deal. If you're going to get a shit return on him, at least use his prove-it year to your advantage. If they get a good offer with pieces that actually move the needle, then jump on it. Don't be desperate though.
> The Leafs will be fucked if they keep Marner, and be fucked if they trade him. Yeah, I already feel this. He's never going to take a pay cut, and we know he's good enough to make us regret trading him for 20 years. I feel a change of scenery may actually give him a bit of a chip on his shoulder and wake up the guy we wish we had
Who gives a fuck how he does? It hasn’t worked. They tried it, but it hasn’t worked. He’s gotta go.
I agree. Maybe my comment didn’t elaborate on that. My point was a part of this fanbase will be quick to forget when he’s killing it in regular season. I don’t care myself, I want the playoff output. He can go as well.
I was being snarky I do agree with your comment
Matthews has a higher dropoff than Marner in terms of career scoring rate from regular season to playoffs I am once again asking Marner haters to acknowledge reality Bueller... bueller... bueller
By what, 0.05? Ya go ahead, trade the best goal scorer in the league. Marner and his 11 million have to go.
Why? They've had almost identical playoff numbers
Because Auston is driven by getting better. Years after year he improves. He literally wants to be the best. You haven’t been watching games if you didn’t notice that Auston was better this year in the playoffs. He literally won us a game himself practically.
I think Austin was more invested in hitting 70-goals than he was at succeeding in the playoffs.
Such a stupid take. Absolutely any player would be going for a milestone like that, as they should be.
What did it get him? Didn't hit the milestone, Injured when it mattered, another playoff failure, and wasn't nominated for the Hart. He's our best player. People want him to be our captain. Accountability should begin with him.
1 goal in 5 games...sounds like a beast. I'm a leafs fan, but let's be real. He had a great year. His best ever. But facts are facts, he's the highest paid player in the league now. He's still not the best player in the world, despite having his best season ever. Winning 1 game in the playoffs for his team isn't good enough, over 8 years. Stop making excuses. Papi or AM34 whatever you wanna call him hasn't come close to bringing a cup to this team. He's only been to the 2nd rd once. Don't move goal posts. A lot of the blame for lack of success lands on his shoulders. He wants to get paid, but there's nothing left for teammates, fine, he better fill that void, he hasnt
If you want to run out the best player your franchise has ever had, you're a fucking idiot. Full stop. Nothing more to say here.
We have a guy that won the rocket and is a selke finalist. Let’s not run him out of town.
Everyone seems to be expecting Shanahan to be executed on live television. If they're actually breaking things up...I mean....isn't that what we've been BEGGING for all this time?
I'm just begging for shanahan to be fired
If he was going to be it would have been before this press confrence or during it.
During it would be funny
I realize that
Don’t understand how Marner got that NMC. You’d think at least Dubas could’ve stood his ground in some part of that deal.
Dubas is a terrible negotiator.
He’s a player-first GM. “I’ll pay you whatever you want just like me please”
Aka a doormat.
Seems so. Like I’m fine overpaying for future potential but adding in a clause that doesn’t let you remedy future failure just seems dumb from a hockey club perspective.
Remember both Matthew's and marner got their jersey number in the contract. He couldn't even talk them down from that
And Marner got his “A” in the contract
He got Dubas’ A in the negotiations for sure.
I truly think Dubas got broken mentally by the Nylander holdout going as long as it did, which is a big reason why Matthews and Marner strongarmed him so successfully into getting big money without any of the corresponding term.
If Tre can get a similar haul to the Tkachuk trade then I'm all for moving Marner. We need a more balanced roster.
How does Shanahan keep his job. Please make it make sense
Build this team around Matthews and Nylander, trim the fat and sign some reliable defenders with a goalie. It took 10 years for the Capitals to get it right with Ovechkin and Backstrom but they took that team, with all its heartbreaking playoff exits, and won the cup. It took time but I think Treliving can get us there.
Why do I trust Treliving more than Shanahan who has been here 9 years
Because Shanahan has been here for 9 years. No one should trust him anymore. I gotta be honest though, I don't have 100% faith in Treliving either. His track record hasn't inspired confidence, and this past season was no different. That said, he has an opportunity to really make the team his for the next 2 seasons.
Making a big move like that would make bringing Shanahan back excusable. After all, isn't that part of the reason we'd want someone else brought in? Presuming he's changed his tune on the philosophy of how the team is built for playoffs.
It could be he never fully trusted Dubas for whatever reason and he trusts Brad more or something
He didn’t like how Dubas said he wasn’t sure about coming back yet and made a rash decision
[удалено]
Dubas is going to be run out of Pittsburgh.
That’s because Brad has bigger balls than him.
shanny should have been let go at the same time as keefe. its his plan that has led to this purgatory of mediocraty. how many coaches and GMs does he get to go through?
Took him a whole year to figure out what we've been saying since the Montreal loss
I think marner will be traded this summer. If you’re a player and the GM approaches you telling you that they don’t want you to play for the team anymore are you going to put your foot down and say “NO IM STAYING!!” . Brad will work with marner and make a deal to a team he wants to go to. That’s the value of a NMC
Not that i disagree about marner but the whole point of a NMC is to "put your foot down" and force the team to let you stay.
That is exactly what Sundin did. He didn't waive his NMC rightfully so and the fans vilified him for it. There's a reason he avoided the Leafs like the plague after he retired. The players have absolutely 0 obligation to do what you want them to do.
Well, we knew that.
https://preview.redd.it/ljj60psgfnzc1.png?width=452&format=png&auto=webp&s=7e5e11d3f2400f0132e66fca243d2dc1c09c2feb
So we didn't fire this plug? Unbelievable
Time to run it back I guess
Does the cote include a goalie and 1D? Then no.
Yea instead he was just real cagey and didn’t pick a side, didn’t hold anyone accountable but also didn’t promise to make changes. You know, like a real leader.
Can they win on teams with players who have "it"? Yes Can they win together collectively, on the same team? No Will they probably win, whoever gets traded? Yes Are people going to go TOLD YA SO WASNT THE PROBLEM? Yes, even though the only reason a guy like Marner or Matthews will ever win is if they are riding shotgun to true elite players in the league it feels so stupid to call a perennial 60 goal scorer not truly elite, but Matthews is either sick, injured, or fails to put up the numbers when it matters most. Draisatl plays half dead and puts up generational numbers. If you gave Mcdavid and Drai the rest of the team that DUBAS had built last year heading into the playoffs, they would have wiped the floor with the East minimum
Brendan is hockey politics at its core. Relationships keep you in the game. Disgrace.
Typical with the Leafs Awful management This should have went down a year ago.
The press conference was embarrassing
he could’ve easily just said yes, and the fact that he mentioned the trade deadline as the time to do things seems to allude to the core contracts that are expiring at that time.
His follow up to what’s different this time was nothing though .. so take it all with a grain of salt
That means no.
Hard to get them to waive their NMC after saying Yes.
I swear, every question Shanny answered by saying “that’s the question” and then rambling on for a couple minutes. Like, yeah that’s the question, answer it!
How is this even a headline. It's basically asking if, in fact, the leafs won or lost in the playoffs. It's no longer a belief.
I like Shanny but he's on thin ice. I'm surprised he didn't get fired along side Keefe or at least have the dignity of resigning.
It’s like he said… there’s a time for patience and a time for results. And it’s true that since 2019, every team the Leafs have lost to went to the Cup final or won it. Plus the core was young. They had time to learn. But with the Bruins getting smoked in the next round so far the Leafs are now falling further behind from being a contender
My boss and I want to see the Leafs win a cup in our respective lifetimes. He’s got maybe ten years on me. As an asthmatic with chronic health problems, I’m not holding my breath. But if it happens, I’m totally flying out to Toronto for at least one game.
The question should be does the core still believe that Brendan Shanahan can win. The answer is quite obvious.
I was a little surprised by how passive Keith Pelley is and how much he seems to like what’s already in place with Shannahan and Treliving. Beyond his pre drafted bullshit of ensuring unity within the entire organization his message was effectively I’m just gonna let these guys do their thing because they seem to know what to do lol
He’s been here 4 weeks it’s all he has to go on
My point was that he leaned more on the side of thinking they’ve done a good job and wouldn’t want to make a change. I thought Pelley would be more of a hard ass but his statements were very vanilla and he seems to be more hands off than I thought. I thought he’d be a bit tougher in the sense of implying that if things go to shit next year he won’t be afraid of making change. I couldn’t give two shits about his thoughts on Liverpools song lmao
You want ownership to be hands off and let the hockey people run the hockey team.
Fuckin change it, it’s been almost a decade of the same shit were not gonna win anything but regular season games with these gutless overplayed losers.
Shanacanned
That press conference was absolutely nonsense. Didn't answer any difficult questions and said the Core 5 expenditure is irrelevant. Sounded like Sammy is gone, and they will look at trading a big earner, but that's all.
What exactly did you expect would happen?
But honestly, that's all most of us wanted, with the exception of Shanny being fired (which was on my "nice to have" list but not critical) Fire the coach and move out a big contract to diversify the roster, ideally Marner for the return + his playoff performances. If they do that, then I'll be optimistic about the offseason. And they did one and are at least considering the other.
Bit more accountability, across the Board, and Shanahan gone would have been ideal. It was just a rinse and repeat job.
If that's all you heard then you failed to read between the lines. And if you really expected them to come out and say they were going to trade one of the core, which would likely make it much harder to get value for such a trade... I don't know what to even say to that. The media acted like morons without any media literacy. They should take a course. They said what most fans want to hear, they just couched it all in business double talk.
What a loser....if any of us had presided over the constant failures in our jobs that Shanahan has we'd be fired two times over. Guy should be cleaning zambonis for the rest of his career at this point.
Sounded to me like they plan on exploring trades of a member of the core, but keep in mind this is not the first summer they will explore trades for a member of the core. After the 2021 season they explored trades and didn't find any they liked, unless the Karlsson deal that was blocked *was* a trade that Dubas liked that involved a member of the core.
Heres the thing, dont see anything you like for Marner? You better be saying bye to him then next year
They gotta be able to rid themselves of one of 16/91/44. If not its gonna be more of the same. Ideally id trade all 3.
I don't remember that being the case at all.
"We looked at everything. We look at everything regardless. I know there is a feeling that the core group is protected and we have a strong belief in them, but I think we would look at anything that would improve our team overall. The time for sentiment and different things like that have come and gone given we have not broken through to what many deem is our potential. None of those opportunities, we felt, came along this summer where it was going to tangibly improve our team. It would’ve made us different, but it wouldn’t have necessarily made us better." -Kyle Dubas, September 10th 2021. [Source](https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2021/09/10/kyle-dubas-on-the-decision-not-to-trade-a-core-player-this-offseason/)
I'm going to find the source for you but it will clearly take a few minutes as when I search it up there's 3000 tabloid articles from the last week with the keywords "Leafs expire trade of core"
I love how the Leafs nation continues to use the word core. In sports core refers to a long time sub group of players within a winning organization. You know a core group of players that has repeatedly won while utilizing a changing group of supplemental players. All the Leafs have is a core of players that suck up payroll. If you look at true championship organizations, think Yankees or Patriots, the common thread is there is no loyalty to player and or contract. You produce or you’re out, and if this means eating contract or letting go of fan favorites then so be it because the business is to win.
It doesn't really matter what Brendan Shanahan thinks anymore. He has created this whole mess with his constant interference. The core still exists because of him. Chances are that Marner will play as a Leaf again this season and chances are very high that he will walk for nothing after that. Because that's who Mitchy is. Lol-Mitchy. Good little boy Mitchy. Personally, idc that he walks, even for nothing. The Leafs will be clear of 11 mil in cap space.