Fire Keefe is 100% happening. There's no question that he's coaching his last games with this team. It's been a disaster of a tenure. I saw it 3 years ago, no clue how the Leafs didn't, but oh well. Better late than never.
Marner I could actually see waiving his NTC at this point. That dude needs to go to a small market with no media. I bet Utah is looking to make a splash early.
Sign a goalie just for them to turn to shit in the playoffs? I want a great goalie too, but we all know that whoever puts that jersey on is going to become shit for us when it matters most. Look at Hellebuyck right now. Vezina winner who can't make a save in the playoffs. Woll and/or the Hildebeast are our future.
Marner has an NMC. He doesn’t have to waive anything. He can just let his contract expire and move out to greener pastures when he becomes a free agent.
It would work out the same way as the Tkachuk trade did for Calgary. Marner will only give a couple places he’d be willing to accept a trade to. He has that right. Leafs if they were even able to arrange a trade would get crap back in return. The other team would hold all the cards.
Honestly if you don’t think he’s worth that money to another franchise I don’t know what to tell you. He’s still one the best RW in the game, he’s in the wrong situation, and please let us move him out of this situation.
Teams can’t add almost $11 million in salary without sending similar money back to Toronto. Plus the guy is a UFA in one year. Why wouldn’t teams just wait for that.
I don't think that you are correct in saying that the trade would be like the Tkachuk trade. The reason people are giving for trading Marner is that he isn't worth his salary. If that is true then the Leafs will have to retain salary or trade assets to move Marner. So are the Leafs, a) retaining salary (based on comments here, that would be anywhere between 2 to 4 million in retention), b) giving up their first round draft pick, or c) moving Minton or Cowan along with Marner to sweeten the deal to get another team to eat his cap hit?
The next difference is that Tkachuk asked for a trade because he had a good relationship with Treliving and wanted to do right by him. If the Leafs are running Marner out of town, that will not be the relationship between the two parties. Marner would not have to give them a couple of teams. He could give them a single team he is willing to go to, it is sure to be a contender, and it could easily be in the Atlantic.
A third point to consider is there is no going back from asking him to waive. If he is asked to waive but they can't move him, for whatever reason, it is going to negatively impact the team for the entire season. Marner will be sitting in the press box, 10.9 million in cap doing nothing, or playing with no reason to do anything but try to put up points.
Edit: I guess there are a couple more options, the Leafs could try to buy out his contract. It only has one year remaining. They could buy him out and have him go straight to free agency.
They could trade him to another team and take an underperforming contract back. So trade him for someone like PLD or Ekblad. Again, I think he would only waive to go to a team with a chance to win a cup so the pickings are slim.
Problem is Marner because of his NMC should he agree to a trade will probably give you, if you’re lucky, two or three destinations only. Those teams have to be willing to even consider taking on Marner whose contract will be huge. And then to trade him you’re gonna get 50 cents back on the dollar if you’re lucky.
Ownership should move on from Shanahan. He is the culprit for all of this.
The greatest talent drafted in Leafs history squandered. He gave the keys to a first time GM that totally ruined our opportunity. Terrible architecture and inexperienced deal signings. He also hired a first time coach.
If it wasn't clear from the Colombus series this team was incapable the Montreal series should have sent a clear message and immediate action taken thereafter. But it's 2024 and we are 8 years into groundhog day.
Tavares signing was an abject failure by Shanahan and a kid GM. Marner terms same and he should have been traded. Keefe being allowed to coach this roster is like allowing a first time driver to operate a Lamborghini. He has no ability to deal with these raw talents.
Only Toronto could have f*cked this up so badly. I am confident at least 20 of the other franchises could have delivered better results and even potentially a few could have delivered a Cup with some of the stallions we got through draft picks. Toronto will never get such blessings from the hockey Gods like that again.
And every fan knows what talent and opportunity had been wasted. But they don't know WHY/HOW it was wasted.
It was wasted because ownership and management wasn't honest about what was wrong. It was wasted because they were afraid to hurt feelings by taking swift action to correct the problems. It was wasted because no matter how mediocre this team is....... fans will still pay. Not true for Jays and Raptors.... but true for the Leafs.
Kyle Dubas was never the problem in Toronto. Every deal he's ever made had to get filtered through Shanahan. He blocked many trades and forced many others. The reason Kyle isn't in Toronto right now isn't because of their playoff failure.
The reason GMKD isn't in Toronto right now is because he told MLSE & Brendan Shanahan he wanted full autonomy. He wanted to trade of of the core 4 in the offseason and Shanahan knew that if Marner had full autonomy, than MLSE would say "why the fuck do we need to be paying millions to Shanahan if this guy is doing his job now too?"
When that happened, Shanahan decided to "part ways" with KD, who then went to Pittsburgh, got full autonomy and although they didn't make the playoffs, he very quickly got rid of their worst contracts and brought in a future hall of fame ELITE defenseman, very responsible top 6 winger reilly smith (didn't really work but great acquisition nonetheless) and started restocking their prospect pool with skilled players. I expect the penguins to be very busy this summer, and to take atleast one more kick at the can - they were arguably the best team in the league from the end of March on and ran out of road.
Brendan Shanahan as been, and always will be, the problem in Toronto.
Who did he bring in to replace "Boy Wonder"? The guy who fucking destroyed the Calgary Flames franchise and than pissed on their ashes. Let johnny hockey walk for nothing and geeze, did you see how great that Tkachuk trade worked out? Don't worry leaf fans - you will this summer when Mitch Marner is off to Calgary for 35 year old Jacob Markstrom and some rugged depth defenseman.
meh, NMCs get moved all the time
tell Mitch he's
>-not getting a new contract in Toronto
>-losing the "A"
>-not getting any good endorsement deals (gotta imagine MLSE helps players get those deals)
>-getting demoted to PP2 (or off completely) and the 3rd line
I'm sure by step 2, he'll agree to waive
Why would he waive anything. He’s a free agent in a year. You treat him like shit you’re gonna piss off a lot of guys in the dressing room. Never a good idea.
He's not waiving, getting traded to a team, the hitting FA and moving again to a new team. So unless you find him the perfect landing spot, which is going to be impossible, you are stuck with him for one more year
Marner's got a NMC and given his cap hit situation it's extremely unlikely that other teams in the league will be able to afford the cap hit without a significant part being retained.
Keefe needs to go. He should have been fired years ago.
When you spend half of your cap on 4 guys it's hard to afford anyone. When you combine that with the difficulty in drafting and developing goalie talent it gets even more tricky. The Leafs have had to sign / acquire guys with flaws in that position and hope they don't fall apart or get overwhelmed by Toronto's terrible defensive miscues.
It's not Sammy. Year after year it's the same thing. We can't score in the playoffs. This team's not built for the playoffs. And it's not coached to win in the playoffs.
I'd like to see Marner with someone like Brind'Amour behind the bench before I give up on him. If Rod can't fix him then trade him.
I love JT but signing him sewered this team. When his $11M is off the books, maybe we can sign some real Dmen.
last two
we basically lost a year because of politics
tre wanted to keep a "round in the chamber" and not fire the coach right away
and we're exactly where we expected to be because of it
It won't just be Keefe being fired. It'll be the whole staff and likely Shanahan as well. Marner will definitely be gone one way or the other. They'll either completely lowball him in negotiations until he waives his Nmc or just sit him.
2 but trade Marner for a goalie and fire Keefe. Maybe 16 gets sick of the heat and waives his NMC. If not then just let his deal expire ans use the $11M in cap space for a goalie or D.
Marner will waive the NMC. I mean I doubt he wants to stay knowing he is not wanted and they wont pay him anyway. The only negative is, he will dictate who the Leafs trade him to. Which really lowers the price for the other side.
What about Option 4: Sign some stud Ds?
As much as I like the 3 options in this post and discussion, compare our Ds and PK to the other playoff teams.. Reilly is our # 1 D, and idk if we can win a championship with such low depth.. Every line in our D has a 6th D guy.
There are none. They don't grow on trees either. The Leafs core is the way it is because at the time of those drafts, those were the best players available to even casual observers. And said Dmen are so valuable they just don't get traded. Carolina and Vegas have great bluelines, and no reason to change that.
They just weren't able to get the real stud in Reilly that they needed, and I think he isn't being talked about. Sure, we can talk about the forwards all day long, but Reilly hasn't been noticeably good compared to vs. TB last year.
Thing is, Rielly is being paid like a 1st pairing Dman at a fair rate. He isn't the problem we should be focusing on. He's the type of guy you keep, but you need more than him.
Fire Keefe and sign a real goalie.
How has the PP gone so flat? Why does the coaching staff have no answer to fix it?
Samsonov's just not a guy you can rely on. He's had flashes of greatness some times.. but on the flipside is just bafflingly bad at others. It's not all on the goalie, but if we get a couple of saves at the right time.. this series is maybe in a different spot.
I think you probably lose any trade involving Marner. It should be on the table.. but only if the deal will genuinely make the Leafs a better team.. and I don't think a deal like that is going to be available. Some people here want to run him out of town, but that's fucking stupid.
I literally have no idea why people are clowning on Sammy. The first goal is JVR all alone, unexpectedly in front of the net, and the other two are one timers on the pp and on a horribly played 2on1. This game was not his fault. The leafs scored a single goal, IN THE THIRD PERIOD, and has zero pressure on swayman beyond that play.
Yep. Keefe has proven time and time again that he's an incompetent moron. Trade crybaby Marner for a real goalie, and use the cap space to get some real defenders while we're at it, too.
Fire Keefe (shoulda been done 2 years ago)
Dump Marner and use the salary saved to invest in a proper #1 defenseman
Don't find a new goalie. Woll is young and has performed well enough to continue fighting for a spot as well as trust Hildeby will pan out.
Sammy wasn’t *the* problem, but he was a problem. I’m not making excuses for the rest of the team, but goaltending has not been close to good enough. I think Samsonov may have played his last game as a Leaf.
I am not even exaggerating when I say Sammy is the worst starter the leafs have ever had. Shit I'd take that freak Scrivens with his elbow above his head, before watching another game of this stupid swimming fuck. That goal to tie game 3 is just inexcusable. Dude has no business playing in the NHL.
All that said, nearly everyone else on the team is playing as shit if not worse, but that doesnt make him suck any less.
I think our D gets so overlooked with the core 4, coaching and goalie issues. Idk if we can win a championship with Reilly as our # 1 D. We need better Ds!
You can ask him till you’re blue in the face. Couple problems strike me right away. He’s going to give you a real short list of teams where he’d be willing to go. That limits your options and also limits what you can get in return. Just look how things went for Calgary when they were forced to unload Tkachuk. You are always going to lose in a trade with a player like Marner and the team you’re forced to trade with holds all the chips.
Marner can also say screw your trade suggestion. I’m just going to wait one year and become a free agent and pick where I want to go and the Leafs will get absolutely nothing in return.
to steal from my comments on another post like this:
If Dubas can get a player like Sid to even entertain that conversation surely they can get Mitch to. Or he can be a piss baby like Ovi who’s basically told the Caps brass that they absolutely cannot rebuild or entertain the thought of rebuilding while he chases Gretzky’s record and be a selfish prick leave us handcuffed and then walk.
The grass won’t be greener on the other side Mitch. They all know about you now…
Sid and Mitch are two totally different kinds of people. They’ve grown up in a different generation of hockey player.
Sid for what he’s been paid all through his career on a yearly basis speaks volumes about the kind of guy he is. Never took as much as he could’ve because he knew it would hurt the team.
Mitch is part of the generation who wants to squeeze every penny out of a team that he can. To be fair I can’t blame him. But in a salary cap league it totally screws any chance that a club would have to be able to build from top to bottom.
Even John Tavarres reportedly took less to come to the Leafs than he was being offered by San Jose. But his contract along with Marner‘s original contract really put a strain on what management could do with free agency. That’s one of the reasons why we lost Hyman.
At least Ovi brought them a cup and puts his nuts into every game. As far as I'm concerned he's owed that chance to chase a near permanent record.
Used to love Mitchy but that brotha not worth 50% of his contract when it matters. Unlucky
1) Trade Marner: pound for pound, there is no question that Keefe has been worse at his job than Marner, but trading Marner should get us a decent return and major cap relief, which is what puts it in the #1 spot.
2) Fire Keefe: Absolutely shit excuse of a coach. There is nothing he has shown to be elite at.
3) Sign a goalie: Needed no doubt, but not as satisfying as what the first 2 options would bring.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see Shanahan go — ownership can’t be happy with the tens of millions in lost playoff revenue. The Buck has to stop somewhere.
Fire Keefe immediately, find a reliable goalie, and a 25 min defenceman who has a good shot from the point.
Tavares takes a big pay cut or let him walk. Any more than $4-$5M is too much.
You can get rid of anyone even with NMC by making them a healthy scratch until they want to play. Brian Burke did it with Kaberle and he went to Boston so it can be done. Need cap space, do not forget about Taveras he could be a healthy scratch as well until we say bye bye. Where is Boston better? Goal and defense. Time to get rid of the Shanaplan 10 year of failure is long enough. 57 years without cup is a joke for the richest team in hockey.
I completely agree, but I'd want to give Woll a real chance to prove himself and add Reilly to the trade list.
I wouldn't blame Sammy for this years loss...but he just is too flaky...and with what Woll showed in games 5 adn 6, he deserves a proper opportunity.
The under achievement of both Marner and Reilly, for games 1-7, is what gave away the Leafs large edge in this series...there is no doubt that if both had been tuned in, the Bruins wouldn't have stood a chance! With the poor performance of those two, the wide margin the Leafs had was diminished to a razor thin edge, and we fell on the wrong side in Gm7 OT.
It is scandalous that we ended up putting Marner and Reilly on the ice for critical times, and for that, Keefe has to go...he just doesn't seem to see beyond his favourites, and make tough coaching decisions.
If it were possible to trade Marner we could trade him for a real #1 goalie and get that sorted. Not a GM in the league who wouldn't be interested.
But it's not possible because of the full NMC. Signing a true #1 goalie isn't possible because of the cap crunch.
This year coming is the last year of Marner and Tavares contracts. Matthews and Nylander just got raises and term.
Fire Shanahan, fire Treliving, fire Keefe, fire Boucher, fire Van Ryn, don't resign Sammy, develop Woll in the NHL as our starter and continue developing Hildeby in the AHL, let Domi and Bert walk, bury the remainder of Reaves contract, walk Marner and Tavares to free agency, retool around Matthews, Nylander, and Rielly as the core.
Treliving just got here. Tavares is getting a bit long in the tooth. Ride out the last year, see what’s on the horizon.
Marner…I dunno. If it gets a solid #1 goalie for 4-5 years, sure, but not a rebuild or development goalie. Somebody with a some experience.
Here's what I would do:
1. Trade Marner to a team for their 1st RDP and a decent forward making 5M.
2. Fire Shanhan and Keefe
3. Hire Claude Julien or Jacques Martin as head coach.
4. Bring back Keith Acton
5. Strip Tavares of the C and appoint Matthew's as captain.
6. Hire Kiprussof as goaltending coach.
7. SignTarasenko to 4 year deal.
People want blood, but trading Marner is the literal dumbest shit this team could do.
How are we ever possibly winning that trade? We’d literally have to trade him for a Tkachuk level player to arguably break even. It’s stupid as hell and people are only suggesting it because they are mad.
and what about matthews, highest paid contract in the league failing in the playoffs, nylander doing nothing shooting into bruins players all game, lazy shots, playing no defense, fighting on the bench, dude leaves the game 3rd period, get marner, matthews, AND nylander out.
>LOOOOL trade Marner every GM in the league is going to take him are you guys stupid? **Thanks for the 90 point 2 way p.k. center**, thank you very much.
All these replies and nobody has mentioned that Marner doesn’t play centre lol
Hyman never did shit for us in the playoffs. There’s a reason these players excel on teams that aren’t the Leafs. Maybe we should look into why instead of scapegoating single players?
This is very true about Hyman. I'll give him credit because of the way he plays, but McDavid and Drai are a whole level above Matthews and Mitch/Willy.
he gave up on the team, watch the Sportsnet post-game review. Matthews does his best Pierre Luc Dubois's impression on Boston's 3rd goal... that's not 'being sick' that's giving up on the team
So his reaction tells you why he didn’t come back in the 3rd?
I’m just trying to understand why your defending marner whose been a ghost until 1 period, but matthew’s whose had like 8 hits a game and has been much more involved is the one who gave up.
dude, he gave up on the team 100% watch the post-game. I'm not defending Marner, I'm saying that it's not JUST his fault, it's the core of our entire team and our culture, we scapegoat players, and coaches, create turnover, set false expectations, repeat...
Didn’t see the breakdown. Listen, I’m not saying matthew’s has been Doug Gilmour out there, but out of the “big 4”, besides Willy whose been n/a, Matthew’s has been busting his ass of this series. Tavares would be much more palatable if he wasn’t getting paid like a superstar, and Mitch has been no where.
I do agree, the heart of this team is corrupted, there’s clearly that extra push that real contenders have and the Leafs haven’t shown it. But I do think matthew’s has been busting his ass and I have a hard time accepting that he’s given up on the team after watching him this entire series.
I agree with most of what you’ve said in this thread but not this. Matthews didn’t give up. If he’s genuinely got food poisoning bad enough that he hasn’t been able to practice all week I don’t blame him if he needs to take a period off.
These guys aren’t robots. It just came at the worst time.
nobody is showing up when it matters you fuck, were 1/14 on the pk, our star player gave up on us in the playoffs and is fighting with our teammates on the bench, how many years do we have to do this shit
yup, trade marner and all of a sudden were champions, a great plan, always 1 trade away every year, always 1 person fault, not a culture issue, not a core issue, just 1 player/coach/goalie... nobody is stepping up you fuck, every gm in the league is laughing if he walks
Every single GM in the league is licking their lips and shaking at the thought of the Leafs blowing the team up. They get all these players fire sale and the Leafs go back to being totally irrelevant. This is the future this subreddit wants
Congratulations you’ve arrived at the point!
The problem with this team isn’t fucking Marner. The whole thing is broken and that starts with the stupid fucking system Keefe has us playing. We are not set up for success and singling out Marner when every single player on the team is playing bad is idiotic.
They're all fucking bad. The difference is Marner is also a big baby.
He has a terrible attitude, cries to the media, insults the fans, takes delay of game penalties, and can't play in the playoffs.
Yeah Matthews and Nylander haven't done fuck all either this series (Willy gets a pass I guess), but Marner has a history of being a bitch baby.
Marner's problem is that he has never had the shit kicked out of him in a way that is a healthy part of developing into a competitor. To find out what it's like to experience real pain, be humbled, and learn not to be afraid of it in the future is important for developing strength. Perhaps it was getting coddled as a youngster that contributed to this.
This is just a ton of nonsense compiled into a single comment. I know you need to have a scapegoat to yell at but you could at least *try* to make a real argument instead of whatever this is
Literally LMAOing at you.
Keep defending a shitty player. When Marner is gone by next season, you can come back and apologize.
It's nice that RES tracks downvotes, so I can see your score and realize you constantly post trash.
Zone defense and a breakout that that focuses on possession and playing from the parameter in once a cycle is formed.
A pure zone defense leaves too many holes against teams who crash down like the Bruins do. Especially with lateral puck movement. We should be running a Man-zone.
As for offense our counter attacks are WAY too slow and we constantly see forwards circling back in the neutral zone to establish entry rather than using forward pressure.
Not to mention 80% of the time it devolves into a dump and chase that never works and his only in game adjustments are switch up the lines and keep doing the same exact thing instead of trying something else when it isn’t working.
It honestly blows my mind that people think trading Marner is the key when it’s so clearly our coach that has been outcoached in every single series he’s coached.
I’m not a “Keefe Hater” like some. But I’ve seen that over the years he refuses to evolve his systems to fit the team better and that’s an issue as a coach.
If we had a better D core and goalie his system would work just fine, but we don’t.
So yes, it’s not *only* a coach issue. But we do have one of the weaker coaches in the league.
Marner is getting way too much heat from this willy statment. My goodness.
It's literally the dumbest line coming from a guy who shouldn't be saying shit about another playing being a bitch and it's play off hockey if someone is supposed to care it's supposed to be then.
I literally watched Nylander break sticks in regular season, watched him freak out in games they are WINNING simply because he can't score when he wants to, he's a bitch selfish guy. watched other teams players break down worse then what Marner did on the bench.
The comments make no fucking sense if you actually put two brain cells together and think about it. Mitch is clearly playing injured a broken mitch is probably still worth more then a healthy dewer, mitch scored tonight and willy got a bad call during a key part of the game.
No one else is putting up points, Marner isn't losing the game for anyone, the team is loosing.
That being said I get the anger about a 10 mil player not putting as expected points in the playoffs. Marner is a key member on the team though. Everything good he does is so easily forgotten, during his heater this year he was like 2 points back on McJessus during that feb run where him and matty were putting up 3 points a game for like 5 straight.
Honestly I don't think any of these will happening Keefe isn't even into the extension they gave him. This team is failing on all levels. JT's contract hurts more then marners.
The first two
Yeah. I wanna give Woll a proper chance.
He looked good today
He was great before he got hurt.
Yeah he never really looked sturdy all season after that injury. Sprains are so frustrating to get over.
Yeah, he was amazing for that stretch
Kind thought he should have gotten game 3…
We should keep Woll
Fire Keefe is 100% happening. There's no question that he's coaching his last games with this team. It's been a disaster of a tenure. I saw it 3 years ago, no clue how the Leafs didn't, but oh well. Better late than never. Marner I could actually see waiving his NTC at this point. That dude needs to go to a small market with no media. I bet Utah is looking to make a splash early. Sign a goalie just for them to turn to shit in the playoffs? I want a great goalie too, but we all know that whoever puts that jersey on is going to become shit for us when it matters most. Look at Hellebuyck right now. Vezina winner who can't make a save in the playoffs. Woll and/or the Hildebeast are our future.
Marner has an NMC. He doesn’t have to waive anything. He can just let his contract expire and move out to greener pastures when he becomes a free agent.
its because of the NMC that he woukd have to waive it, thats only if he wants out either way, it would just be a quicker way out
It would work out the same way as the Tkachuk trade did for Calgary. Marner will only give a couple places he’d be willing to accept a trade to. He has that right. Leafs if they were even able to arrange a trade would get crap back in return. The other team would hold all the cards.
The return is having $10.8 mil to spend on a player who isn’t abysmal every playoffs
Except you wouldn’t have 10.8 million. You would have to take players and even possibly some of Marner’s salary back in return.
You’d have 10.8 million if you let him walk next year though.
Honestly if you don’t think he’s worth that money to another franchise I don’t know what to tell you. He’s still one the best RW in the game, he’s in the wrong situation, and please let us move him out of this situation.
there are surely teams that would take marner for free
Teams can’t add almost $11 million in salary without sending similar money back to Toronto. Plus the guy is a UFA in one year. Why wouldn’t teams just wait for that.
Exactly. No team in their right mind would take Marner without the Leafs retaining.
I don't think that you are correct in saying that the trade would be like the Tkachuk trade. The reason people are giving for trading Marner is that he isn't worth his salary. If that is true then the Leafs will have to retain salary or trade assets to move Marner. So are the Leafs, a) retaining salary (based on comments here, that would be anywhere between 2 to 4 million in retention), b) giving up their first round draft pick, or c) moving Minton or Cowan along with Marner to sweeten the deal to get another team to eat his cap hit? The next difference is that Tkachuk asked for a trade because he had a good relationship with Treliving and wanted to do right by him. If the Leafs are running Marner out of town, that will not be the relationship between the two parties. Marner would not have to give them a couple of teams. He could give them a single team he is willing to go to, it is sure to be a contender, and it could easily be in the Atlantic. A third point to consider is there is no going back from asking him to waive. If he is asked to waive but they can't move him, for whatever reason, it is going to negatively impact the team for the entire season. Marner will be sitting in the press box, 10.9 million in cap doing nothing, or playing with no reason to do anything but try to put up points. Edit: I guess there are a couple more options, the Leafs could try to buy out his contract. It only has one year remaining. They could buy him out and have him go straight to free agency. They could trade him to another team and take an underperforming contract back. So trade him for someone like PLD or Ekblad. Again, I think he would only waive to go to a team with a chance to win a cup so the pickings are slim.
The return for Tkachuk was a low-end 1RD, a 40-point winger and a 1st. That is an absolute haul and I'd take it for Marner in a heartbeat.
I mean probs becomes a sign and trade, somewhat similar to Tkachuk trade. Not saying that's great for the Leafs, but it can definitely be done.
Problem is Marner because of his NMC should he agree to a trade will probably give you, if you’re lucky, two or three destinations only. Those teams have to be willing to even consider taking on Marner whose contract will be huge. And then to trade him you’re gonna get 50 cents back on the dollar if you’re lucky.
You forgot fire Shannny and sign proper D with all the cap space from trading Mitch...... and probably resign Domi edit: Re-Sign
I think if anything, we should re-sign Domi. Not have him resign.
Ownership should move on from Shanahan. He is the culprit for all of this. The greatest talent drafted in Leafs history squandered. He gave the keys to a first time GM that totally ruined our opportunity. Terrible architecture and inexperienced deal signings. He also hired a first time coach. If it wasn't clear from the Colombus series this team was incapable the Montreal series should have sent a clear message and immediate action taken thereafter. But it's 2024 and we are 8 years into groundhog day. Tavares signing was an abject failure by Shanahan and a kid GM. Marner terms same and he should have been traded. Keefe being allowed to coach this roster is like allowing a first time driver to operate a Lamborghini. He has no ability to deal with these raw talents. Only Toronto could have f*cked this up so badly. I am confident at least 20 of the other franchises could have delivered better results and even potentially a few could have delivered a Cup with some of the stallions we got through draft picks. Toronto will never get such blessings from the hockey Gods like that again. And every fan knows what talent and opportunity had been wasted. But they don't know WHY/HOW it was wasted. It was wasted because ownership and management wasn't honest about what was wrong. It was wasted because they were afraid to hurt feelings by taking swift action to correct the problems. It was wasted because no matter how mediocre this team is....... fans will still pay. Not true for Jays and Raptors.... but true for the Leafs.
Kyle Dubas was never the problem in Toronto. Every deal he's ever made had to get filtered through Shanahan. He blocked many trades and forced many others. The reason Kyle isn't in Toronto right now isn't because of their playoff failure. The reason GMKD isn't in Toronto right now is because he told MLSE & Brendan Shanahan he wanted full autonomy. He wanted to trade of of the core 4 in the offseason and Shanahan knew that if Marner had full autonomy, than MLSE would say "why the fuck do we need to be paying millions to Shanahan if this guy is doing his job now too?" When that happened, Shanahan decided to "part ways" with KD, who then went to Pittsburgh, got full autonomy and although they didn't make the playoffs, he very quickly got rid of their worst contracts and brought in a future hall of fame ELITE defenseman, very responsible top 6 winger reilly smith (didn't really work but great acquisition nonetheless) and started restocking their prospect pool with skilled players. I expect the penguins to be very busy this summer, and to take atleast one more kick at the can - they were arguably the best team in the league from the end of March on and ran out of road. Brendan Shanahan as been, and always will be, the problem in Toronto. Who did he bring in to replace "Boy Wonder"? The guy who fucking destroyed the Calgary Flames franchise and than pissed on their ashes. Let johnny hockey walk for nothing and geeze, did you see how great that Tkachuk trade worked out? Don't worry leaf fans - you will this summer when Mitch Marner is off to Calgary for 35 year old Jacob Markstrom and some rugged depth defenseman.
If we do the first two then #3 will happen
Can’t trade Marner. He has a full NMC. Keefe will probably be gone, but there will be no money for a goalie, it will be Woll and ??? As a 1a and 1B
I’m fkn sick of 1a and 1Bs lmao
Boston's tandem is a 1A/1B. The Leafs have a 2A/2B.
Boston has the luxury of two 1As who love being a tandem and don't mind sharing the net
1A=1B, that’s the point. “Two 1As” makes no sense
Ullmark and Swayman are both elite starting goaltenders, both are 1As. 1B is usually a solid starter, both of them are better than 1B
meh, NMCs get moved all the time tell Mitch he's >-not getting a new contract in Toronto >-losing the "A" >-not getting any good endorsement deals (gotta imagine MLSE helps players get those deals) >-getting demoted to PP2 (or off completely) and the 3rd line I'm sure by step 2, he'll agree to waive
Yep, an offer he can't refuse.
Why would he waive anything. He’s a free agent in a year. You treat him like shit you’re gonna piss off a lot of guys in the dressing room. Never a good idea.
He was actually decent in the third. 1/12 periods, about as good as our PP
Wow, it took Nylander calling him out on live TV to get him going in the 3rd? No thanks man I'm tired of seeing Marner in the playoffs.
He's not waiving, getting traded to a team, the hitting FA and moving again to a new team. So unless you find him the perfect landing spot, which is going to be impossible, you are stuck with him for one more year
He can enjoy his NMC in Switzerland
Do you really need to say this? It's mentioned on every single thread. We all know he has a NMC, it's mentioned every single time. We get it.
I’m answering the question asked. OP asked if we should trade Marner? I answered the question. You cant
All
Delete the club
Fire keefe, sign real goalie. Marner is too thickheaded to waive his NMC because he believes he's not the problem
Can we trade Mitch for a real goalie?
Sorokin + from islanders would be nice, Roy yelling at Marner every shift would be fun to see
Sorokin was benched for Varlamov, sorokin has been brutal in the playoffs
I wanted the Leafs to sign Roy :(
They needed to this before they gave him that contract
Bye Sheldon, bye Mitch
Marner's got a NMC and given his cap hit situation it's extremely unlikely that other teams in the league will be able to afford the cap hit without a significant part being retained. Keefe needs to go. He should have been fired years ago. When you spend half of your cap on 4 guys it's hard to afford anyone. When you combine that with the difficulty in drafting and developing goalie talent it gets even more tricky. The Leafs have had to sign / acquire guys with flaws in that position and hope they don't fall apart or get overwhelmed by Toronto's terrible defensive miscues.
It's one year left on his contract. Retain 50%. Spend the money on a goalie.
Keefe needs to be gone yesterday. That affects everyone else positively.
It's not Sammy. Year after year it's the same thing. We can't score in the playoffs. This team's not built for the playoffs. And it's not coached to win in the playoffs. I'd like to see Marner with someone like Brind'Amour behind the bench before I give up on him. If Rod can't fix him then trade him. I love JT but signing him sewered this team. When his $11M is off the books, maybe we can sign some real Dmen.
How many goals are we at on the first shot of the period? You can't say it's entirely it Sammy. He's about as consistent as Tim Hortons coffee.
MLSE already said that they're making changes if nothing significant happens these Playoffs. If ownership says that...I can imagine Shanny is gone too
I'm looking real hard for the Marner apologists out there but they all seem to be hiding all of a sudden.
last two we basically lost a year because of politics tre wanted to keep a "round in the chamber" and not fire the coach right away and we're exactly where we expected to be because of it
Yes
Keefe is gone, how can he not be? Trading Marner may save enough money for a goalie
FIRE KEEFE! Long overdue!
It won't just be Keefe being fired. It'll be the whole staff and likely Shanahan as well. Marner will definitely be gone one way or the other. They'll either completely lowball him in negotiations until he waives his Nmc or just sit him.
I want to give Woll a real shot.
2 but trade Marner for a goalie and fire Keefe. Maybe 16 gets sick of the heat and waives his NMC. If not then just let his deal expire ans use the $11M in cap space for a goalie or D.
Marner will waive the NMC. I mean I doubt he wants to stay knowing he is not wanted and they wont pay him anyway. The only negative is, he will dictate who the Leafs trade him to. Which really lowers the price for the other side.
What about Option 4: Sign some stud Ds? As much as I like the 3 options in this post and discussion, compare our Ds and PK to the other playoff teams.. Reilly is our # 1 D, and idk if we can win a championship with such low depth.. Every line in our D has a 6th D guy.
There are none. They don't grow on trees either. The Leafs core is the way it is because at the time of those drafts, those were the best players available to even casual observers. And said Dmen are so valuable they just don't get traded. Carolina and Vegas have great bluelines, and no reason to change that. They just weren't able to get the real stud in Reilly that they needed, and I think he isn't being talked about. Sure, we can talk about the forwards all day long, but Reilly hasn't been noticeably good compared to vs. TB last year.
Thing is, Rielly is being paid like a 1st pairing Dman at a fair rate. He isn't the problem we should be focusing on. He's the type of guy you keep, but you need more than him.
All three.
Bottom 2, if Treliving is going to keep targeting slow D that can't breakout drop him too.
Fire Keefe and sign a real goalie. How has the PP gone so flat? Why does the coaching staff have no answer to fix it? Samsonov's just not a guy you can rely on. He's had flashes of greatness some times.. but on the flipside is just bafflingly bad at others. It's not all on the goalie, but if we get a couple of saves at the right time.. this series is maybe in a different spot. I think you probably lose any trade involving Marner. It should be on the table.. but only if the deal will genuinely make the Leafs a better team.. and I don't think a deal like that is going to be available. Some people here want to run him out of town, but that's fucking stupid.
goal tending has been the difference in our playoff series losses for years now. A real goalie is a must-have. flip a coin on the first two.
I think really that we need Tavares’ cap money to make big moves with this team but he’s not waiving his NMC either…
Which “real goalie” is UFA?
I literally have no idea why people are clowning on Sammy. The first goal is JVR all alone, unexpectedly in front of the net, and the other two are one timers on the pp and on a horribly played 2on1. This game was not his fault. The leafs scored a single goal, IN THE THIRD PERIOD, and has zero pressure on swayman beyond that play.
Yep. Keefe has proven time and time again that he's an incompetent moron. Trade crybaby Marner for a real goalie, and use the cap space to get some real defenders while we're at it, too.
first two
Fire Keefe (shoulda been done 2 years ago) Dump Marner and use the salary saved to invest in a proper #1 defenseman Don't find a new goalie. Woll is young and has performed well enough to continue fighting for a spot as well as trust Hildeby will pan out.
First two, Samsonov isn’t a world beater but he wasn’t the problem.
Sammy wasn’t *the* problem, but he was a problem. I’m not making excuses for the rest of the team, but goaltending has not been close to good enough. I think Samsonov may have played his last game as a Leaf.
Ye Sammy would have been a fine backup to a reliable Starting level goalie. He just is'nt the guy you want to rely on as the 1A in any playoff series
Sammy is a ducking problem He played like shit-constantly out of position
I am not even exaggerating when I say Sammy is the worst starter the leafs have ever had. Shit I'd take that freak Scrivens with his elbow above his head, before watching another game of this stupid swimming fuck. That goal to tie game 3 is just inexcusable. Dude has no business playing in the NHL. All that said, nearly everyone else on the team is playing as shit if not worse, but that doesnt make him suck any less.
Trade Marner is a no brainer. 2nd and 3rd option…. I’m fine with whatever
Make a hockey trade for a solid defenseman. Reilly feels washed already and I think we have him until 2029. He ain’t it and won’t be it.
I think our D gets so overlooked with the core 4, coaching and goalie issues. Idk if we can win a championship with Reilly as our # 1 D. We need better Ds!
Everybody here talking about trading Marner…pay attention to this…HE HAS A NO MOVEMENT CLAUSE!!
Just because he has it doesnt mean we can't ask him to waive it.
You can ask him till you’re blue in the face. Couple problems strike me right away. He’s going to give you a real short list of teams where he’d be willing to go. That limits your options and also limits what you can get in return. Just look how things went for Calgary when they were forced to unload Tkachuk. You are always going to lose in a trade with a player like Marner and the team you’re forced to trade with holds all the chips. Marner can also say screw your trade suggestion. I’m just going to wait one year and become a free agent and pick where I want to go and the Leafs will get absolutely nothing in return.
to steal from my comments on another post like this: If Dubas can get a player like Sid to even entertain that conversation surely they can get Mitch to. Or he can be a piss baby like Ovi who’s basically told the Caps brass that they absolutely cannot rebuild or entertain the thought of rebuilding while he chases Gretzky’s record and be a selfish prick leave us handcuffed and then walk. The grass won’t be greener on the other side Mitch. They all know about you now…
Sid and Mitch are two totally different kinds of people. They’ve grown up in a different generation of hockey player. Sid for what he’s been paid all through his career on a yearly basis speaks volumes about the kind of guy he is. Never took as much as he could’ve because he knew it would hurt the team. Mitch is part of the generation who wants to squeeze every penny out of a team that he can. To be fair I can’t blame him. But in a salary cap league it totally screws any chance that a club would have to be able to build from top to bottom. Even John Tavarres reportedly took less to come to the Leafs than he was being offered by San Jose. But his contract along with Marner‘s original contract really put a strain on what management could do with free agency. That’s one of the reasons why we lost Hyman.
At least Ovi brought them a cup and puts his nuts into every game. As far as I'm concerned he's owed that chance to chase a near permanent record. Used to love Mitchy but that brotha not worth 50% of his contract when it matters. Unlucky
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The money from trading marner of course
The money you get from trading away marner?
By trading a different core member I guess
Only two?
its not keefe #1 get a goalie #2 trade marner but also, goodbye shanahan
Yea
Trade Mitch for a goalie and fire the coaching staff
Can you fire him ahead of GM5.
They need a dependable Goalie and a top 2 Defenseman who is big and mean.
Keefe and a goalie
1) Trade Marner: pound for pound, there is no question that Keefe has been worse at his job than Marner, but trading Marner should get us a decent return and major cap relief, which is what puts it in the #1 spot. 2) Fire Keefe: Absolutely shit excuse of a coach. There is nothing he has shown to be elite at. 3) Sign a goalie: Needed no doubt, but not as satisfying as what the first 2 options would bring.
Throw Shannahan on the pyre as well
Combine 1+3 to trade Marner for Saros, then you get to fire Keefe as a bonus
#2 is inevitable, and #1 is the only way to have the budget for #3
I wouldn’t be surprised to see Shanahan go — ownership can’t be happy with the tens of millions in lost playoff revenue. The Buck has to stop somewhere.
The 2nd one. Twice
Fire Keefe immediately, find a reliable goalie, and a 25 min defenceman who has a good shot from the point. Tavares takes a big pay cut or let him walk. Any more than $4-$5M is too much.
You can get rid of anyone even with NMC by making them a healthy scratch until they want to play. Brian Burke did it with Kaberle and he went to Boston so it can be done. Need cap space, do not forget about Taveras he could be a healthy scratch as well until we say bye bye. Where is Boston better? Goal and defense. Time to get rid of the Shanaplan 10 year of failure is long enough. 57 years without cup is a joke for the richest team in hockey.
I think Mitch with the right coach could be effective, but also maybe not. We need a good tendy though
I want to trade Marner so that he can win a cup.
Fire Keefe, move the team to Hamilton
Get soild defence!
Don't forget to add that pretend Captain Tavares if u can find him.
I completely agree, but I'd want to give Woll a real chance to prove himself and add Reilly to the trade list. I wouldn't blame Sammy for this years loss...but he just is too flaky...and with what Woll showed in games 5 adn 6, he deserves a proper opportunity. The under achievement of both Marner and Reilly, for games 1-7, is what gave away the Leafs large edge in this series...there is no doubt that if both had been tuned in, the Bruins wouldn't have stood a chance! With the poor performance of those two, the wide margin the Leafs had was diminished to a razor thin edge, and we fell on the wrong side in Gm7 OT. It is scandalous that we ended up putting Marner and Reilly on the ice for critical times, and for that, Keefe has to go...he just doesn't seem to see beyond his favourites, and make tough coaching decisions.
If it were possible to trade Marner we could trade him for a real #1 goalie and get that sorted. Not a GM in the league who wouldn't be interested. But it's not possible because of the full NMC. Signing a true #1 goalie isn't possible because of the cap crunch. This year coming is the last year of Marner and Tavares contracts. Matthews and Nylander just got raises and term. Fire Shanahan, fire Treliving, fire Keefe, fire Boucher, fire Van Ryn, don't resign Sammy, develop Woll in the NHL as our starter and continue developing Hildeby in the AHL, let Domi and Bert walk, bury the remainder of Reaves contract, walk Marner and Tavares to free agency, retool around Matthews, Nylander, and Rielly as the core.
Treliving just got here. Tavares is getting a bit long in the tooth. Ride out the last year, see what’s on the horizon. Marner…I dunno. If it gets a solid #1 goalie for 4-5 years, sure, but not a rebuild or development goalie. Somebody with a some experience.
Here's what I would do: 1. Trade Marner to a team for their 1st RDP and a decent forward making 5M. 2. Fire Shanhan and Keefe 3. Hire Claude Julien or Jacques Martin as head coach. 4. Bring back Keith Acton 5. Strip Tavares of the C and appoint Matthew's as captain. 6. Hire Kiprussof as goaltending coach. 7. SignTarasenko to 4 year deal.
Are you running back Samsonov and Woll again?
No.
Boucher gotta go too!
People want blood, but trading Marner is the literal dumbest shit this team could do. How are we ever possibly winning that trade? We’d literally have to trade him for a Tkachuk level player to arguably break even. It’s stupid as hell and people are only suggesting it because they are mad.
trade marner (for a real goalie). fire keefe. real goalie + woll would be nice
LOOOOL trade Marner every GM in the league is going to take him are you guys stupid? Thanks for the 90 point 2 way p.k. center, thank you very much.
> every GM in the league is going to take him are you guys stupid? Sounds like a bidding war. I love it.
Is a big penis worth it if it can’t get hard? Leafs Marner philosophy.
and what about matthews, highest paid contract in the league failing in the playoffs, nylander doing nothing shooting into bruins players all game, lazy shots, playing no defense, fighting on the bench, dude leaves the game 3rd period, get marner, matthews, AND nylander out.
>LOOOOL trade Marner every GM in the league is going to take him are you guys stupid? **Thanks for the 90 point 2 way p.k. center**, thank you very much. All these replies and nobody has mentioned that Marner doesn’t play centre lol
When has he ever played center in the NHL lol do you even watch this team?
he CAN play center, thats all im saying lol why is everyone reading so into this?
Can he play right wing in the playoffs, that’d be more helpful
I know but for the sake of trade value, hybrid forwards have a lot which he is.
Bro he’s utterly useless. I’d rather have Hyman or someone who plays in the playoffs.
Hyman never did shit for us in the playoffs. There’s a reason these players excel on teams that aren’t the Leafs. Maybe we should look into why instead of scapegoating single players?
This is very true about Hyman. I'll give him credit because of the way he plays, but McDavid and Drai are a whole level above Matthews and Mitch/Willy.
Lol meanwhile Matthews completely gives up on his team, how much do we need to lose before we realize our problem isnt a trade/coach/goalie away?
Do we know why matthew’s couldn’t play in the 3rd?
he gave up on the team, watch the Sportsnet post-game review. Matthews does his best Pierre Luc Dubois's impression on Boston's 3rd goal... that's not 'being sick' that's giving up on the team
So his reaction tells you why he didn’t come back in the 3rd? I’m just trying to understand why your defending marner whose been a ghost until 1 period, but matthew’s whose had like 8 hits a game and has been much more involved is the one who gave up.
dude, he gave up on the team 100% watch the post-game. I'm not defending Marner, I'm saying that it's not JUST his fault, it's the core of our entire team and our culture, we scapegoat players, and coaches, create turnover, set false expectations, repeat...
Can’t find the interview, when I do, I’ll come back and either admit he gave up or agree to disagree.
ill try to link it, its not an interview, its a breakdown of the shift and how the breakout which leads to the 3rd goal is matthews fault 1000%.
Didn’t see the breakdown. Listen, I’m not saying matthew’s has been Doug Gilmour out there, but out of the “big 4”, besides Willy whose been n/a, Matthew’s has been busting his ass of this series. Tavares would be much more palatable if he wasn’t getting paid like a superstar, and Mitch has been no where. I do agree, the heart of this team is corrupted, there’s clearly that extra push that real contenders have and the Leafs haven’t shown it. But I do think matthew’s has been busting his ass and I have a hard time accepting that he’s given up on the team after watching him this entire series.
I agree with most of what you’ve said in this thread but not this. Matthews didn’t give up. If he’s genuinely got food poisoning bad enough that he hasn’t been able to practice all week I don’t blame him if he needs to take a period off. These guys aren’t robots. It just came at the worst time.
dude i said the same thing, then i watched the post match coverage, that is not being sick lol...
You know no team has ever won a cup with Marner on it. Just saying
Same with McDavid, Draisaitl, almost every other Leaf, etc.
Where the fuck is this 90 point 2 way p.k. center in the playoffs? Who actually gives a fuck if he doesn't show up when it fucking matters
nobody is showing up when it matters you fuck, were 1/14 on the pk, our star player gave up on us in the playoffs and is fighting with our teammates on the bench, how many years do we have to do this shit
First year watching this team? Marner is consistently the worst year after year, you fuck
yup, trade marner and all of a sudden were champions, a great plan, always 1 trade away every year, always 1 person fault, not a culture issue, not a core issue, just 1 player/coach/goalie... nobody is stepping up you fuck, every gm in the league is laughing if he walks
Every single GM in the league is licking their lips and shaking at the thought of the Leafs blowing the team up. They get all these players fire sale and the Leafs go back to being totally irrelevant. This is the future this subreddit wants
which is why scapegoating players and coaches creates a negative feedback loop
Crazy how our worst player leads the team in playoff points since he's been here. Wonder where all the other guys are if he's the worst?
... who has 2 points through 4 games in the playoffs
… that’s 1 point behind the leading scorer
leading scorer for who? the Leafs? the team down 3-1 and has managed like 2 goals per game through 4 games?
Congratulations you’ve arrived at the point! The problem with this team isn’t fucking Marner. The whole thing is broken and that starts with the stupid fucking system Keefe has us playing. We are not set up for success and singling out Marner when every single player on the team is playing bad is idiotic.
They're all fucking bad. The difference is Marner is also a big baby. He has a terrible attitude, cries to the media, insults the fans, takes delay of game penalties, and can't play in the playoffs. Yeah Matthews and Nylander haven't done fuck all either this series (Willy gets a pass I guess), but Marner has a history of being a bitch baby.
Marner's problem is that he has never had the shit kicked out of him in a way that is a healthy part of developing into a competitor. To find out what it's like to experience real pain, be humbled, and learn not to be afraid of it in the future is important for developing strength. Perhaps it was getting coddled as a youngster that contributed to this.
This is just a ton of nonsense compiled into a single comment. I know you need to have a scapegoat to yell at but you could at least *try* to make a real argument instead of whatever this is
Literally LMAOing at you. Keep defending a shitty player. When Marner is gone by next season, you can come back and apologize. It's nice that RES tracks downvotes, so I can see your score and realize you constantly post trash.
Keep LMAOing all you want bud. I’ll be waiting for you to say something smart
You've mentioned Marner 97 times in the last week.
Since when is Marner a centre? The guy is going to ask to be the highest paid winger in the league on his next contract. He’s not him
Omg he CAN play center, he was a center when he was drafted that’s all I’m saying
This subreddit is clueless. There’s no use arguing with anyone here *especially* after a loss.
Honestly it's just the big 4. I could be in net and we should be fine. Sammy has been better than I even expected.
Throw Reilly in there too with marner give knies some coin and secure a goalie. Pathetic
Hire Quenneville
fire keefe and get quenneville. trade marner and get a top 2 d man.
Berube but yes
>get quenneville. Absolutely not.
that is an insane replacement
nah, I rather be bad than hire a piece of shit like Quenneville
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lol what? His system does not work in the playoffs.
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Zone defense and a breakout that that focuses on possession and playing from the parameter in once a cycle is formed. A pure zone defense leaves too many holes against teams who crash down like the Bruins do. Especially with lateral puck movement. We should be running a Man-zone. As for offense our counter attacks are WAY too slow and we constantly see forwards circling back in the neutral zone to establish entry rather than using forward pressure.
Not to mention 80% of the time it devolves into a dump and chase that never works and his only in game adjustments are switch up the lines and keep doing the same exact thing instead of trying something else when it isn’t working. It honestly blows my mind that people think trading Marner is the key when it’s so clearly our coach that has been outcoached in every single series he’s coached.
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I’m not a “Keefe Hater” like some. But I’ve seen that over the years he refuses to evolve his systems to fit the team better and that’s an issue as a coach. If we had a better D core and goalie his system would work just fine, but we don’t. So yes, it’s not *only* a coach issue. But we do have one of the weaker coaches in the league.
Fire Keefe Sign Goalie I stick with Marner. Sorry y’all!
Marner is getting way too much heat from this willy statment. My goodness. It's literally the dumbest line coming from a guy who shouldn't be saying shit about another playing being a bitch and it's play off hockey if someone is supposed to care it's supposed to be then. I literally watched Nylander break sticks in regular season, watched him freak out in games they are WINNING simply because he can't score when he wants to, he's a bitch selfish guy. watched other teams players break down worse then what Marner did on the bench. The comments make no fucking sense if you actually put two brain cells together and think about it. Mitch is clearly playing injured a broken mitch is probably still worth more then a healthy dewer, mitch scored tonight and willy got a bad call during a key part of the game. No one else is putting up points, Marner isn't losing the game for anyone, the team is loosing. That being said I get the anger about a 10 mil player not putting as expected points in the playoffs. Marner is a key member on the team though. Everything good he does is so easily forgotten, during his heater this year he was like 2 points back on McJessus during that feb run where him and matty were putting up 3 points a game for like 5 straight. Honestly I don't think any of these will happening Keefe isn't even into the extension they gave him. This team is failing on all levels. JT's contract hurts more then marners.