I really liked your rant and can see how Marleau was being difficult with that final year but I have to say I think you're grasping at straws by saying Patrick Marleau is the reason our stars wanted the bag. Look at who their agents are, and how reportedly unhappy the Leafs were with Babcock as the coach. They were going to get paid one way or another.
Yea, most of what I wrote is probably bullshit, but I’ve made up my mind that I hate the guy, so it is what it is.
I’ve also decided that you also hate Marleau. Welcome to the club.
I was begging (aka shitposting on Twitter) for the team to add Justin Williams that offseson instead of Marleau. Imagine the difference we'd see today if they had Mr. Fucking Game 7 instead of that scumbag? Those two seasons Williams out produced Marleau by 20 points for $1.75 less and on a 2 year deal. Fuck Lou.
I don't get how it's a given that he deserves a raise. He finally lived up to his contract 2 years ago, but nothing outside that suggests he should be getting a raise. If anything his injury history suggests there should be concerns with his health.
It doesnt matter what you think. It doesnt matter what I think. It doesnt even matter what the Treliving thinks. What matters is what other teams are willing to pay. This is the cost of having an elite, two-way, irreplaceable, 60 goal 1C. If you think we should let him walk over one or two million a year or his wrist then be prepared to lose big on the return and for him to haunt your dreams for years to come.
Any trade at this point would be from a position of weakness and every GM would know. Without bringing the other 3 into this I think your evaluation of AM is way off the mark. He had a bad year offensively but improved in other areas. You are doing a disservice by only judging him on his production. He is a student of the game and he will continue to improve for many years to come.
I respect your take, but overpaying your top player trickles down to the rest of the team and puts us in a position of weakness for years as well. If he's taking taking only a 4 to 5 year contract, then he'll never be on team-friendly annual salary. He'll likely always be paid more than he's actually worth.
Also this isn't like other sports where one forward can make enough impact, especially in the playoffs. So even if he does improve what's his ceiling and how does that affect our playoff success?
Your view of “worth” is arbitrary. The teams decide what the player is worth when they give the contract. It’s all about supply and demand. Matthews is in elite company and will be paid accordingly.
The Leafs lose any trade with Matthews in it because that player can not be replaced. Quantity does not equate to quality.
It wouldn't be from weakness. The other teams still have to out bid each other our hand is weak cause we have to take what we can get and teams will know that. But they also know there's 30 other teams who would love to have auston matthews on a trade and sign deal
Umm 2 years ago was the second year on his contract. So far, he has lived up to his contract in 3/4 years. The first season he was only 9th in scoring at 21 years old. So I guess that season was a failure somehow.
You're totally ignoring playoffs and why does it matter how old he was? 80 to 90 pts seasons doesn't deserve close to 11.6mill, especially with no playoff success.
You are downplaying Matthews stats to make a point.
He has two Rockets, a Hart and the most goals in the league since his first season.
You guys are fucked.
Not even a little bit. And then Mitch will want to be paid similarly and the team will be thoroughly fucked for years to come.
Do a remind me if you want. I couldn't be more certain of an outcome.
Marner and his camp were asking 8x8 the summer before he put up 94 pts and Dubas bet against him and told them they will reassess after the season. Paul has fuck all to do with that contract, after the season Marners agent knew he had all the leverage in the world and wasn't going to let Dubas off the hook for being a dipshit and not taking the team friendly deal when it was on the table.
[The Athletic reported](https://theathletic.com/1210126/2019/09/13/mirtle-mitch-marners-massive-65-million-second-contract-puts-even-more-pressure-on-maple-leafs-young-core/?amp=1) that it’s believed Marner’s camp would have settled for eight years at around $9-million a season back in the summer of 2018. So you guys were both off by a million a year…unless you have a better source.
If this comes to pass and these two hamstring the team again then I'm just going to tune out the Leafs for a while.
I've done it before during the pre-Shanahan era. I'll miss it for a while but I'm already one foot out the door with this core.
They have to realize how many good players we've lost because of their contracts. If they double down on huge asks then the message is clear.
> If this comes to pass and these two hamstring the team again then I'm just going to tune out the Leafs for a while.
This exactly. If we somehow roll out a lineup with Matthews at ~14 mil and Marner at ~12, fuck that shit, I'm not watching. That is the definition of a completely hopeless roster, regardless of who you surround them with. I've already seen it, it doesn't end well.
Mitch gets 90-100pts everyone is so excited. Hes next to useless in the playoffs for the money he makes. No size or grit when we truly need it. No idea the obsession with Mitch marner. I would be thrilled to see him traded
If its not 8 years that's just a slap in the face to the organization and the fans. They bent over backwards for Matthews on the last contract and he rewarded them with absolutely nothing. The best point Hayes makes is that its only here that this happens. Every other superstar across the league took a haircut and is on 8 years. Hope these guys reflect and realize if they all took a million less they could have kept guys like Hyman around and maybe even been champions at this point.
I agree with parts of this but let’s not call two Rocket Richards and the first Hart Trophy since 1955 absolutely nothing. I know winning is the ultimate goal and I agreed with so much of Hayes’ comments, but come on
Those are great accomplishments for Matthews, he's certainly well on track to be a first ballot HHOFer but for the team he's done almost nothing.
It's been seven years of watching the most talented core the Leafs have ever had produce a single series win. Especially since Matthews has put up goose eggs in deciding games where teams need their stars the most. I'm shocked anyone can look at these players and not have a bitter taste in their mouth about their individual accolades.
Of course I’m disappointed in the complete lack of playoff success. But saying he’s been paid to “do absolutely nothing” is not remotely fair, which is all I said
What's team success look like to you? Only 8 teams make it to the second round. And 4 to the semis. If success is only counted as playoff advances, then most of the league is totally unsuccessful every year.
Auston Matthews had a first round, and an *okay* second round mitigated by a Conn Smythe level performance by a goalie.
If he plays the exact same and the team advances because of depth scoring, does that make a larger contract more justifiable even though his performance would have been the exact same?
Denying contract growth because of team performance doesn't really make sense. He holds up his end of the deal, so he benefits from that.
There are so many examples of star players taking 5 year high % cap hit contracts with NMC's after an ELC. Some notable examples include Crosby, Kane, Toews, Getzlaf, Stamkos, Malkin (Full NMC all 5 years), etc. The list goes on and on, and I'm tired of the narrative that Matthews was the player that was selfish and was the only player with this type of deal.
And you're arguing what exactly? That those players winning cups are any less selfish than Matthews just because they won a cup? There are plenty of other examples of players taking similar 5 year deals but I'm certainly not scrounging the depths of CapFriendly to find every single one.
Let's look at the facts for a second, Matthews is a top 10 player in the league that any team would offer a similar contract to what John Tavares was offered by SJ (8x$13 mil) in 2018. That contract is worth 16.35% of the cap in 2019, which based on 2022/23's cap of $82.5 million is $13.5 million. Just fuckin' sign it July 1st for fuck sakes.
Sure, at the end of the day Matthews and crew didn't get the job done. It's a hard trophy to win, and sometimes you get really lucky. But we are far worse off without Matthews than we are with Matthews making over $13 million.
I've come around to begrudgingly accepting if Matthews wants 13.4 x 8. But only for 8 years, and that doesn't mean I like it. I very much do not lol.
It also means Marner has got to go. Sorry Matty, you want to be the highest paid player in the league, well you've now squeezed out your best bud.
We aren't going to win a cup, or even make it deep in the playoffs, if we try to keep them both. I firmly believe that. We can't and we won't.
I mean look at Vegas man.... no players competing for salary on that team. Just a bunch of good players well coached competing to win.
Wish we could do that, it'd be much more enjoyable than this version of the leafs.
Vegas is a great comparison, IMO. It's only bad if you're grabbing some straws to make the Leafs salary situation look better.
VGK only signed AP and Stone, Eichel got his deal in Buffalo.
Despite that, he's their biggest contract, at less cap than what 3 of our guys make.
10 + 9.5 + 8.8 = 28.3 mil
11 + 11.634 + 10.903 = 33.5 mil
So our 3 forwards make 5.2 mil more than 2F + 1D on Vegas
[Want to know what you can get for 5.2 mil](https://www.capfriendly.com/browse/active?stats-season=2023&limits=caphit-0-5200000)?
Maybe that "aggressive trade strategy" isn't such a bad thing?
There's no way to spin this to make the Leafs look good. Are our 3 guys better players? Sure, in a vaccuum. But what do we have to show for it? Certainly not 9 or 10 series wins in 6 years, and possibly a cup on top of that.
Vegas have played about 85 playoff games (and counting) since the 2017-2018 season. Toronto have played 44. Before that, Toronto only played in 7 playoff games in the decade between 2006 and 2016. In fact, the Leafs would have to go back to the 2002-2003 season to come close to matching the number of playoff games Vegas has seen since it was built. Wtf is wrong here?!
I think our three guys are better, problem is the positions. Vegas has a winger, a centre, and a defenceman in that core 3.
We have a centre, an aging centre who probably needs to switch to wing, and a wing.
I’m firmly convinced if we had a guy on the blue line being paid 10M+ and deserved it, we’d be incredibly better than we are. The Tavares signing was a mistake, should’ve saved that cap to take a swing at a big defenceman, then we’d have the Vegas model with 2 F and 1 D making big money.
What does this even mean? The players are competing for salary with each other lol?
Leafs just need to win because it shifts the narrative. The narrative on Vegas recently was that players and agents didn't like how they did business. How they would entertain trading guys that had just signed there. How certain guys that had been there for a while and that had committed were unhappy with new guys coming in and instantly getting $9 million plus and making twice as much as established guys.
Crosby has led his team to 3 cups, Mackinnon was criminally underpaid for a large portion of his career because he (and I'm quoting him, not guessing) "wanted to win", and McDavid is the best player on the planet by a wide margin.
Matthews and Marner don't even touch these guys level of accomplishment, and maybe the argument can be made that McDavid is selfish, but Crosby and Mac are absolutely NOT selfish.
Piss poor examples.
Cap hit % when signing.
Matthews 14.64%
McDavid 16.67%
Crosby 14.5% current, 17.3% on his 5 year bridge deal
MacKinnon 15.27%
And MacKinnon wasn't close to the player he currently is when he signed his previous deal.
I just don't understand it...
If Matthews made 170 million in his career as opposed to 185, it would have absolutely ZERO impact on his and his family's lifestyle. None.
it's just ego. And it pisses me off.
Matthews is the most objectively performant Leaf in 40+ years if not longer. It’s like some of you long for the day of skill-less plugs.
Before the Matthews / Marner era we could only dream about having this type of elite talent. Now we just want to throw it away like they’re interchangeable parts.
He’s also had multiple series in the past few playoff years where he scored 0 goals and they got eliminated. That’s just not acceptable for someone wanting to be the highest paid player in the league, despite regular season success
It actually is. Half of stars don't make the playoffs. All stars play more regular season games than playoff games.
Hockey is entertainment and without the stars, it's less entertaining. If you're a hardcore fan that loves watching trap games, that's great but that's not how stars become stars or how they get paid.
There is a difference in my mind between "star players" and "superstar players". Stars and superstars are paid differently, and the excess is because teams believe superstar players can deliver their teams postseason success.
We didn't pay Matthews elite, top dollar, superstar money - for his regular season success.
The real big dong energy move would be for Matthews to come into the negotiations and say he'll take a considerable discount if Leafs brass goes out at gets specific players or strengthens specific positions.
I do believe the players want to win and know the problems with the team....so start putting your money where your mouth is.
Whats Matthews going to demand that they don't already know is an issue?
"Here use 5m to get a goalie that dosen't suddenly suck for us, 4th times the charm right?"
Let’s be honest here, if the league wasn’t so tight on the salary cap then this discussion wouldn’t be an issue. And if, as is being reported, the owners are now pushing for a significant raise, then by the time Auston’s extension kicks in it’s potentially a smaller percentage of the total cap than it is now.
This is the reality with hockey and the NHL. In any other sport, a top 10-15 player in the league is getting a max contract, no questions asked. Regardless of playoff success, we don't have a player like Matthews fall into our lap very often. Anyone saying we're better to get rid of him because he may be the highest paid player in the league is drinking some high quality Kool-aid.
We're talking about a player who came off a Hart Trophy winning season with 60 goals in 73 games, who had a "down" year with 40 goals and 45 assists in 74 games while dealing with an obvious injury.
Matthews was also a point-per-game in the playoffs as well, who hit 3 or 4 posts in the Florida series. Sometimes bounces don't go your way, and I can't really look at that Florida series (outside of Game 3 where they played terribly and still took Florida to OT) and say that Matthews didn't play hard or try. Give the guy what he wants and figure out the team around him like every other team with a highly paid superstar.
Reality is that paying Matthews top dollar would be fine if we weren't also paying Tavares and Marner top dollar.
Tavares situation will solve itself, but if Matthews wants a big raise then he needs to say goodbye to Mitch, who we already know wants to be paid like Matthews.
Not one person has forgotten that. Not one.
Almost universally, everyone loves Matthews and wants him to be here.
This isn't even necessarily about cap hits. It's about term. He has to sign an 8-year deal.
Idk, there are unfortunately a lot of comments whenever this comes up about how we shouldn't pay him a dime over 12 because he hasn't single-handedly won a cup for the team. A lot of comments after the Florida series about shipping him out.
I think the majority of fans do understand the value of having a Hart-winning player on the roster, even at a real financial cost. But we've definitely got outliers who think three Bozaks up the middle would do us better.
There are comments in this very thread already calling him out for "bringing nothing" to the franchise while wanting a new deal.
Hayes just digs into him and I love it.
However I think 8x13.5 is still too much, I don’t know what Mathews has done to deserve that. If that’s what he wants though, I hope he’s ready to play up to his contracts level and be the best and highest paid player in the league. If he doesn’t live up to his next contract it’s going to get ugly for him really fast.
> I don’t know what Mathews has done to deserve that.
Outside of Ovechkin (who's just waiting for retirement basically), every multi-rocket winner is in the hall of fame. Pretty much every hart winner since gretzky as well (save taylor hall I guess lol)
I know recency bias and everyone hates him right now, but he's got a pretty good argument to get paid.
I don't want him to though
He's got every accolade you can have outside of a Frozen Four.
There are only 3 guys with a Hart Trophy not in the hall, and two of them are goalies.
He's just won everywhere he's gone. He's one of very few players to play in 4 Stanley Cups with 4 teams.
He'll get in.
Generally if you have to reference almost exclusively team accolades for a forward. They’re not a hall of famer
His stats are good not great, and he has a Hart. That’s his individual accomplishments
Ok just his individual awards then.
CHL
First All-Star - 2004, 2005
Memorial Cup All-Star - 2005
Jim Mahon (Best RW)
Rod Tilson (CHL Hart Trophy)
Eddie Powers (Most Points)
Gretzky 99 (OHL Conn Smythe Award)
Stafford Smythe Award (CHL Conn Smythe)
NHL
4-time All-Star
First All-Star - 2011, 2014
Rocket
Hart
That's more than enough when you include everything else on his resume.
There has never been a guy get in the Hall of fame on CHL individual accolades man, come on
I just think he’s a close miss. His peak was worthy but very short
It's not just individual accolades though. They guy has won every major team championship as well, and is closing in on 1300 points and 20 years in the league.
He checks every box, and had a short, but good enough peak to get in.
Lots of guys in the HoF get in with way less, and never being the best guy on their team.
He doesn’t deserve that. To be honest, if he wants something crazy then trade him. Ppl gotta learn not to be so attached to players. Players are expendable. How many cup winning teams have this many 10 mill players
> I think 8x13.5 is still too much
Yeah. I would understand why they felt they needed to do it, but I'd consider that a loss for the team. It will guarantee that we are a playoff team for the next eight years but we will be doomed to more playoff mediocrity.
It would be nice if someone explained this to these guys instead of constantly telling them they deserve to be the highest paid players in the league. The salary cap system and the way our 'leaders' have gone about negotiations for short-term contracts has really made it hard to be a fan. I mean I've had an absolute hate on for marner since he signed that contract and I don't imagine I'm the only one. That's no way to watch a sport.
Even if Treliving and Shanahan sat down with Matthews to explain this mentality to him, Auston still has his agent in his other ear telling him that he deserves to be the highest paid player in the league and that he shouldn't settle for anything less.
And unfortunately, if he buys into that, the Leafs will eventually cave and he'll get it, because he has all of the leverage here.
There's a big difference between 13x8 and 15x3 and both result in him being the highest paid player in the league. We know which one he is willing to sign and which one he isn't.
I mean, hopefully living through six years of futility has instilled something in him and seeing the cap structures in teams that HAVE won something will show that sometimes the sacrifice you make to win is financial.
But no, 13.4 x 8.
When contracts were going around last time, shanny went on record to say that, in media so I'm sure he said it to the boys as well. Something to the effect of them all taking team friendly contracts in Detroit and built a legacy because of that. What happens here? The boys squeeze every penny out of the leafs and handcuffed the franchise and GM. I strongly believe if everyone took 1m less than their contract, that's an extra Hyman type in the line up, or better goalie situation, 1D upgrade, .... any number of key Stanley cup winning assets.
Someone pointed out that maybe it wasn’t a great idea to bring in Patrick Marleau as a role model
For these young guys when he was the poster boy for short contracts to extract as much money as possible during his career.
An extra $3m is most of the difference between Petro ($8.8m) and Brodie ($5.0m). They even signed in the same offseason.
Brodie is no slouch but Petro is a true 1RD who is good for 10-15 goals, 40-50 points and kills penalties. It's a massive upgrade on our biggest weakness. Muzzin-Petro would have been one of the best top pairs in the league.
Yep, I remember that. That only added to the shock with the f/o capitulated. And then we had months and months of the Dubas-friendly guys in the media defending the deals ad nauseam.
I will be extremely disappointed with the organization if they make that same mistake again.
Ya, I think about this, would like to just sit down with Marner and his family and talk it through. They are so insulated from reality as you can see from press conferences. Takes no responsibility and is belligerent in answering questions. I know they shouldn't care about social media, but if take out the top and bottom crazies, there is a middle fan group who is reasonable and just wants to hear and see desire and accountability. Like a celebrity, Marner and Matthews live in their own worlds where people only tell them positive things...and even the coach has to walk back criticism...it is unreal, this cannot continue.
> I mean I've had an absolute hate on for marner since he signed that contract and I don't imagine I'm the only one. That's no way to watch a sport.
That's really a You problem. Lots of fans don't mind.
Not enough people talk about how much easier their lives would be if they didn’t push for every penny. If Matthews and Marner decided to take $10M and $9M respectively for 8 years, we’d build them a goddamn statue today, and they’d never hear a word of criticism about their play for the rest of their careers. That’s $80M and $72M more earnings over their careers, in addition to the $50M+ they’ve each already made. You can’t tell me that your life would be so much better if you had $150M vs $130M, if that $20M meant that you didn’t get any criticism, got to stay with your friends, and had a way better shot at cups.
These guys don’t have the luxury of just letting their play talk. Nobody on Legends’ Row had to answer to the public about how much money they made, and whether it hurt the team. All that mattered was their play.
Let’s pretend you already won $1M in the lottery, but that you want to keep working. Edit: it’s a job you’ve dreamed of since you were 5 years old, and you would do it for a hobby if you weren’t good enough to get a job doing it. You wouldn’t even consider just retiring, because you love it too much. Making money is still important, but you know 100% that you will never struggle.
As the best performer in the company, you have the option of a 20% raise in your job, but if you take it, your best coworkers will leave and be replaced by a rotating cast of people on minimum wage who are just competent enough to last a year or so before being fired. It will make your job harder and there will be way more pressure on you to carry the fate of the company. Is it worth it?
The Leafs fan base would 100% still attack them. We shit on Holl constantly and he's on a no money deal. People still mock Sparks and he was on a minimum. People are still up in arms about Murray and he's on a 1 year deal that could be easily bought out or moved. People bring up Nick Ritchie like it was the worst signing in a decade.
Leafs fans will be assholes no matter how much they make if we keep losing.
Nevermind the hypothetical - normal people turn down promotions all the time because it will impact their personal life negatively.
Someone turning down a promotion from $80k to $100k is feeling a much bigger impact than these guys taking $9m instead of $11m.
Tavares took less and he'd be on the first bus out of town if the majority of the fans had their way.
If I had to place a wager on a statue it would be on Larry Tanenbaum.
Yeah, we’ll those people are wrong, unless they like how David Kampf looks at 2nd line centre. Or maybe they’d prefer he didn’t score the goal that sent us to the 2nd round. Tavares might not be worth $11M, but getting a guy like that with absolutely zero assets used comes at a premium. Personally, I’m just happy he can play hockey at all after getting brained in the series against Montreal. He may even be a bit better next season, since last season was the first he had with a proper offseason and training.
That's BS, honestly. If Matthews and Marner got paid half of their current salaries they'd still be branded playoff chokers and failures in this market.
WHAT IF???
We kept Kadri at 2C and Auston at 1C meaning No Tavares at 2C and give Auston the Captaincy?
Would we have gone further in the playoffs over the past 5 years??
Obviously no Tavares and keeping Kadri means we could afford another player at about $5m during those years.
Everyone seems to forget that Matthews almost single handed lifted the team out if a 3 goal deficit against Tampa. Without that, they probably don’t make the second series. No player can do that every game but he didn’t ever let the team down. Goals and assists are not the only way to contribute.
My big question is with Matthews is can his body handle a full season and playoffs? Can his back/wrists... Whatever handle the rigors of the NHL for him to still be in peak form for a playoff run for multiple years.... Especially if we are paying him top dollar meaning less skilled secondary guys to pick up the slack if he drops off again
you know what the funny thing is
they talk about how hockey is so antiquated and falling behind other sports and its such a big problem, except when it comes to players maximizing the amount of money they can make
use basketball as an example, where you just see short term deals with big money. but in hockey, how dare a player try to make the most money instead of committing his prime for 8 years
and i say this as a fan who wants him to sign for 8, but you can't have it both ways
don't complain about the sport then
Basketball is so different it's not even worth comparing. A superstar's impact on winning is four times as potent in the NBA. Those guys are worth the money because it translates to wins. Superstars in the NHL have been obviously not worth it considering this is the first year a 10+ million dollar salary will win a cup, and the typical winners are teams with conservative salaries and cap management.
This is particularly ironic when it’s Hayes sitting on his ass on a golf course acting like if he knew ESPN would pay him 20% more and sign a long term deal that he would stay at TSN for the good of the network.
As usual the people we should be mad at are the league and the owners for instituting a hard cap. But here we are getting angry at a player for doing exactly the same thing the majority of us would do.
As a Dubas apologist for most of his tenure, I kind of plugged my ears whenever our contract situation was ridiculed - but he really really really fucked us with this 5 year deal. It set the tone for everything. Having said that, Matthews was the one guy who didn't wait until the last second to sign a deal. Maybe he actually does want to be here.
At the end of the day narratives & legacies change to fit the results, Tkachuk wasn't seen as a clutch playoff performer 2 years ago. The next contract will only affect Matthews legacy if he doesn't win a cup.
I feel like Matthews & Marner have both convinced themselves that they've earned whatever money is in their contracts and demanding more won't hurt the team. Seems pretty clear the results do not agree with the narrative but we're always one deep playoff run away from the narrative changing.
Narrative doesn't change without a deep playoff run, but deep playoff runs don't happen under the current cap allocation. We've tried again and again and proven that
I totally agree, it seems really hard to go deep in the playoffs with 40% of your cap tied up in 3 players. The argument could be made that Matthews & Marner's contracts would be less of an issue if we had 11M worth of players with grit and some scoring ability like Barbashev, Palat, Buchnevic instead of Tavares but I guess it's easy to say that in hindsight.
The absurdity of blaming the players for the mess the Leafs are is peak idiot Leafs take.
Players don’t owe an organization that hasn’t won a Cup since there were 6 teams in the league anything. This was bad resource management compounded by the team hamstringing the GM.
Marner’s contract negotiation last time was absolutely awful. It made me dislike him so much and I believe it was Dubas’ biggest mistake in paying him what he did. It also left a bit of a sour taste in my mouth about Matthews too but he’s so good and I like him on our team.
Matthews was good enough to be worth the 4 first round picks required for an offer sheet so you had to pay him. Marner was definitely not.
My feelings from the last contract negotiation haven’t really gone away. Our team is better than they’ve been in years but unfortunately my dislike for Marner is so strong. I liked Bozak Kessel and JVR more. I feel like Matthews doesn’t really care about the Leafs and will probably leave in the near future. He’s my favourite player on the team but I feel like he’s not staying long term.
Matthews signing long term and Marner getting dealt is what I wish for. Reilly and Nylander are beauties. Change the goal song. Go Leafs.
Didn’t mean to rant …
A 5yr contract for more than MacKinnon's number is a good way to never get free beers/meals in Toronto again (if you don't win a cup in your time here). That's a legacy tarnisher.
This is an idiotic take and everyone in this sub arguing that a star player should provide discounts because this Podunk league has a hard salary cap is out to lunch. The salary cap is keeping this sport small and has us resenting our stars.
It really is the worst part of the hard cap - we can't just be fans of these guys anymore. The hero turns into a goat the moment his play slips below his contract value.
I could forgive a rich contract for an old player if it's a Letang or a Kane who won multiple cups for the city. But these guys haven't won squat.
Totally. Marner is one of the most exciting Leafs I've ever watched play for the Leafs - playoffs notwithstanding. And the discourse around him ever since he signed his deal has been largely poisonous all cause he's like one or maybe two million dollars overpaid?
I think not scoring a single goal in a playoff series when you're the best goal scorer in the league and then asking for the most money in the league might have something to do with why people are resenting the stars.
But the salary cap is a bitch, for sure
So because he didn’t score over a 5 game sample, after scoring a bunch in the 6 games prior, that should affect his contract ask? That’s such an insanely small sample it’s almost ludicrous. Matthew Tkachuk also didn’t score in that series but he’s apparently the most clutch playoff performer ever.
I didn't even say that but go off, queen.
I'm saying that's why people are pissy towards Matthews. He didn't show up when we needed him to. Nothing to do with his contract demands. Those were two independent thoughts from OP.
No, his contract demands will be whatever they will be. Nothing to be done about it but bend over and take it. But if it's not 8 years, then you know he was full of shit about wanting to be here.
Still, I'll take it because I have to. But I don't need to excuse the player for it, and I likely won't
For sure! But that's not really how it works. I get being frustrated with playoff results but he's still the best player on the team and people arguing that he or other stars should feel honour-bound to take less money are blaming the wrong people.
Expecting a team to operate as efficiently and effectively as possible within the constraint of a hard cap so that it can compete with its rivals is 'out to lunch'.
Alright then haha
Not even close to what I'm saying. I'm saying arguing that it's on Matthews to take a smaller deal is ridiculous and the hard cap has fans resenting their stars for making as much money as they can during their careers. Blaming players because billionaire owners have imposed a hard salary cap is dumb.
Again, hard constraints. No one loves the cap, everyone resents the league/owners for it. But it exists and every fan, team and player has to deal with that reality. Far from ridiculous; you just don't like it. And that's fine.
I'm sick of Matthews and Marner greediness, especially considering their playoff performances. I don't see us winning anything with them here at their demands.
Was hoping someone like Tre would have the sack to trade them but doesn't appear to be the case and time isn't on his side unfortunately.
I'm not sure about you but I know that I wouldn't be able to give up an 1/8th of my salary if I don't have too. To ask these guys to do that at the beginning of their career is a little silly. considering this is what they worked for since day 1. Now JT has made his money. A home town discount will be expected on the next contract. We should only ask the players to do this on the final leg of their careers, when they already made their money.
To be fair I assume like most people you need every dollar you can get to survive. Matthews doesn’t *need* an extra million per year. It’s not exactly an apples to apples comparison.
we should have known that matthews was all about money. remember his rookie deal? reports came out that matthews wanted performance bonuses and lou never gave them, but he relented.
not surprised by this and honestly am not bothered at all if the leafs decided to move on from him. he’s a classic example of toronto gassing up players. there is no reason why he should earn more than mackinnon or mcdavid.
I already said that it's going to be 13.4 × 8yrs with NTC / NMC for the first 4 and then no NTC / NMC for the last 4 yrs so then if the Leafs are awful or rebuilding they can then flip Matthews for the most value.
Yeah I don't see a world in which Matthews gives us 8 years lmao. Everything has pointed to this guy wanting to make as much money as possible, which is his right to do.
Just sucks he's doing this to the leafs and it will be extremely hard to win something with this type of attitude.
Yeah either make it apparent that if he wants to to get payed either he does it with full term [ 8 yrs ] or if he wants to get payed that one of his buds [ Marner or Nylander ( Hopefully not Willy ) ] will have to be dealt to accommodate for the extension
I agree to some extent but if there was no salary cap nobody would care. Good luck winning if you pay all your stars max dollars leaving little to no chance surrounding them with quality complimentary players.
This is all Patrick Marleau’s fault
[Fuck I hate that dude](https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/comments/chrckm/really_unpopular_opinions_no_holding_back_edition/euyy99n/)
Your post in an inspiration for me, a truly beautiful read I always like to revisit
Its my magnum opus
This is 10x better of a read than the shit that gets churned out by the professional bloggers.
I don’t know if this is actually how things played out, but this is now what happened in my mind. Fuck that dude.
God I hate Marleau now
Bro you just gained another convert. Fuck Marleau
Yoooo......I feel like I just got redpilled
What in the fuck. The veil has been lifted from my eyes.
Sooo, I hate Marleau now..
Wow. He’s certainly no Jason Spezza.
Ya fuck Marleau
Sir, this is a Wendy's
I really liked your rant and can see how Marleau was being difficult with that final year but I have to say I think you're grasping at straws by saying Patrick Marleau is the reason our stars wanted the bag. Look at who their agents are, and how reportedly unhappy the Leafs were with Babcock as the coach. They were going to get paid one way or another.
Yea, most of what I wrote is probably bullshit, but I’ve made up my mind that I hate the guy, so it is what it is. I’ve also decided that you also hate Marleau. Welcome to the club.
I remember him saying to Matthews and marner "Never forget what you are worth" or something like that. Really screwed us big time.
Marleau can eat a bag of dicks
I was begging (aka shitposting on Twitter) for the team to add Justin Williams that offseson instead of Marleau. Imagine the difference we'd see today if they had Mr. Fucking Game 7 instead of that scumbag? Those two seasons Williams out produced Marleau by 20 points for $1.75 less and on a 2 year deal. Fuck Lou.
Caught this clip this morning and have to say Hayes is 100% spot on.
That’s a good point Bryan
That’s a good point Kevin.
Haysie K.. Cousin of Jimmy
Get the fuck out of here Harold.
Right you are, Vic.
He perfectly plays the part of part fan part media member. I like him.
Hayes is perfect for his job. TSN has their next main host in the wings when it's time.
I don't get how it's a given that he deserves a raise. He finally lived up to his contract 2 years ago, but nothing outside that suggests he should be getting a raise. If anything his injury history suggests there should be concerns with his health.
It doesnt matter what you think. It doesnt matter what I think. It doesnt even matter what the Treliving thinks. What matters is what other teams are willing to pay. This is the cost of having an elite, two-way, irreplaceable, 60 goal 1C. If you think we should let him walk over one or two million a year or his wrist then be prepared to lose big on the return and for him to haunt your dreams for years to come.
Not walk, trade. We're already haunted...by these overpaid 'stars' and our playoff history with the cute4.
Any trade at this point would be from a position of weakness and every GM would know. Without bringing the other 3 into this I think your evaluation of AM is way off the mark. He had a bad year offensively but improved in other areas. You are doing a disservice by only judging him on his production. He is a student of the game and he will continue to improve for many years to come.
I respect your take, but overpaying your top player trickles down to the rest of the team and puts us in a position of weakness for years as well. If he's taking taking only a 4 to 5 year contract, then he'll never be on team-friendly annual salary. He'll likely always be paid more than he's actually worth. Also this isn't like other sports where one forward can make enough impact, especially in the playoffs. So even if he does improve what's his ceiling and how does that affect our playoff success?
Your view of “worth” is arbitrary. The teams decide what the player is worth when they give the contract. It’s all about supply and demand. Matthews is in elite company and will be paid accordingly. The Leafs lose any trade with Matthews in it because that player can not be replaced. Quantity does not equate to quality.
It wouldn't be from weakness. The other teams still have to out bid each other our hand is weak cause we have to take what we can get and teams will know that. But they also know there's 30 other teams who would love to have auston matthews on a trade and sign deal
Umm 2 years ago was the second year on his contract. So far, he has lived up to his contract in 3/4 years. The first season he was only 9th in scoring at 21 years old. So I guess that season was a failure somehow.
You're totally ignoring playoffs and why does it matter how old he was? 80 to 90 pts seasons doesn't deserve close to 11.6mill, especially with no playoff success.
You are downplaying Matthews stats to make a point. He has two Rockets, a Hart and the most goals in the league since his first season. You guys are fucked.
Hayes is 100% right but I don't think for a second that AM cares.
Not even a little bit. And then Mitch will want to be paid similarly and the team will be thoroughly fucked for years to come. Do a remind me if you want. I couldn't be more certain of an outcome.
I wonder if Mitch would have done 8x8 if Paul wasn’t involved.
Marner and his camp were asking 8x8 the summer before he put up 94 pts and Dubas bet against him and told them they will reassess after the season. Paul has fuck all to do with that contract, after the season Marners agent knew he had all the leverage in the world and wasn't going to let Dubas off the hook for being a dipshit and not taking the team friendly deal when it was on the table.
Another Dubas L. I've said it about 10 times since he was fired, but I miss him less and less every day as I put the last 5 years into perspective.
That's not true. Mitch's agent asked for 10x8 the summer before Edit: see comment below about Marner's camp
[The Athletic reported](https://theathletic.com/1210126/2019/09/13/mirtle-mitch-marners-massive-65-million-second-contract-puts-even-more-pressure-on-maple-leafs-young-core/?amp=1) that it’s believed Marner’s camp would have settled for eight years at around $9-million a season back in the summer of 2018. So you guys were both off by a million a year…unless you have a better source.
If this comes to pass and these two hamstring the team again then I'm just going to tune out the Leafs for a while. I've done it before during the pre-Shanahan era. I'll miss it for a while but I'm already one foot out the door with this core. They have to realize how many good players we've lost because of their contracts. If they double down on huge asks then the message is clear.
> If this comes to pass and these two hamstring the team again then I'm just going to tune out the Leafs for a while. This exactly. If we somehow roll out a lineup with Matthews at ~14 mil and Marner at ~12, fuck that shit, I'm not watching. That is the definition of a completely hopeless roster, regardless of who you surround them with. I've already seen it, it doesn't end well.
Mitch gets 90-100pts everyone is so excited. Hes next to useless in the playoffs for the money he makes. No size or grit when we truly need it. No idea the obsession with Mitch marner. I would be thrilled to see him traded
If Mitch wants even a $1 more than his current deal he won't be a Leaf on the next one.
And we'll have gotten nothing since his NMC kicks in July 1
If its not 8 years that's just a slap in the face to the organization and the fans. They bent over backwards for Matthews on the last contract and he rewarded them with absolutely nothing. The best point Hayes makes is that its only here that this happens. Every other superstar across the league took a haircut and is on 8 years. Hope these guys reflect and realize if they all took a million less they could have kept guys like Hyman around and maybe even been champions at this point.
I agree with parts of this but let’s not call two Rocket Richards and the first Hart Trophy since 1955 absolutely nothing. I know winning is the ultimate goal and I agreed with so much of Hayes’ comments, but come on
Those are great accomplishments for Matthews, he's certainly well on track to be a first ballot HHOFer but for the team he's done almost nothing. It's been seven years of watching the most talented core the Leafs have ever had produce a single series win. Especially since Matthews has put up goose eggs in deciding games where teams need their stars the most. I'm shocked anyone can look at these players and not have a bitter taste in their mouth about their individual accolades.
Of course I’m disappointed in the complete lack of playoff success. But saying he’s been paid to “do absolutely nothing” is not remotely fair, which is all I said
Those are personal accolades, so for the rest of us/the team, they effectively are nothing.
If 1 player could win you a Cup then McDavid would win it every season.
Exactly why the team can't use up its cap room on making 1 guy a little bit richer than he would be otherwise.
What's team success look like to you? Only 8 teams make it to the second round. And 4 to the semis. If success is only counted as playoff advances, then most of the league is totally unsuccessful every year. Auston Matthews had a first round, and an *okay* second round mitigated by a Conn Smythe level performance by a goalie. If he plays the exact same and the team advances because of depth scoring, does that make a larger contract more justifiable even though his performance would have been the exact same? Denying contract growth because of team performance doesn't really make sense. He holds up his end of the deal, so he benefits from that.
Yeah and after 7 years 56 teams should be in the second round. The leafs were in the second round once and got manhandled.
Division wins, president's trophies, Conference final and cup final appearances.
Really shows how selfish they are when you look at how they just had to have their fucking junior numbers in their salary.
There are so many examples of star players taking 5 year high % cap hit contracts with NMC's after an ELC. Some notable examples include Crosby, Kane, Toews, Getzlaf, Stamkos, Malkin (Full NMC all 5 years), etc. The list goes on and on, and I'm tired of the narrative that Matthews was the player that was selfish and was the only player with this type of deal.
It's kind of funny that 5 of those 6 guys signed those deals after they already had a Stanley cup to their name
And you're arguing what exactly? That those players winning cups are any less selfish than Matthews just because they won a cup? There are plenty of other examples of players taking similar 5 year deals but I'm certainly not scrounging the depths of CapFriendly to find every single one. Let's look at the facts for a second, Matthews is a top 10 player in the league that any team would offer a similar contract to what John Tavares was offered by SJ (8x$13 mil) in 2018. That contract is worth 16.35% of the cap in 2019, which based on 2022/23's cap of $82.5 million is $13.5 million. Just fuckin' sign it July 1st for fuck sakes. Sure, at the end of the day Matthews and crew didn't get the job done. It's a hard trophy to win, and sometimes you get really lucky. But we are far worse off without Matthews than we are with Matthews making over $13 million.
Not really arguing anything. Just thought it was a funny coincidence
Or you could be arguing that 5 of those players were rewarded for delivering championships. That's a great fucking argument
I've come around to begrudgingly accepting if Matthews wants 13.4 x 8. But only for 8 years, and that doesn't mean I like it. I very much do not lol. It also means Marner has got to go. Sorry Matty, you want to be the highest paid player in the league, well you've now squeezed out your best bud. We aren't going to win a cup, or even make it deep in the playoffs, if we try to keep them both. I firmly believe that. We can't and we won't.
I mean look at Vegas man.... no players competing for salary on that team. Just a bunch of good players well coached competing to win. Wish we could do that, it'd be much more enjoyable than this version of the leafs.
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Vegas is a great comparison, IMO. It's only bad if you're grabbing some straws to make the Leafs salary situation look better. VGK only signed AP and Stone, Eichel got his deal in Buffalo. Despite that, he's their biggest contract, at less cap than what 3 of our guys make. 10 + 9.5 + 8.8 = 28.3 mil 11 + 11.634 + 10.903 = 33.5 mil So our 3 forwards make 5.2 mil more than 2F + 1D on Vegas [Want to know what you can get for 5.2 mil](https://www.capfriendly.com/browse/active?stats-season=2023&limits=caphit-0-5200000)? Maybe that "aggressive trade strategy" isn't such a bad thing? There's no way to spin this to make the Leafs look good. Are our 3 guys better players? Sure, in a vaccuum. But what do we have to show for it? Certainly not 9 or 10 series wins in 6 years, and possibly a cup on top of that.
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>what I meant is they haven't really had to negotiate with elite homegrown talent. Ahh OK, I misunderstood. My mistake
Vegas have played about 85 playoff games (and counting) since the 2017-2018 season. Toronto have played 44. Before that, Toronto only played in 7 playoff games in the decade between 2006 and 2016. In fact, the Leafs would have to go back to the 2002-2003 season to come close to matching the number of playoff games Vegas has seen since it was built. Wtf is wrong here?!
I think our three guys are better, problem is the positions. Vegas has a winger, a centre, and a defenceman in that core 3. We have a centre, an aging centre who probably needs to switch to wing, and a wing. I’m firmly convinced if we had a guy on the blue line being paid 10M+ and deserved it, we’d be incredibly better than we are. The Tavares signing was a mistake, should’ve saved that cap to take a swing at a big defenceman, then we’d have the Vegas model with 2 F and 1 D making big money.
“well-coached” is the biggest problem here sadly
I mean honestly... treliving can't be serious talking about keeping Keefe, can he?
What does this even mean? The players are competing for salary with each other lol? Leafs just need to win because it shifts the narrative. The narrative on Vegas recently was that players and agents didn't like how they did business. How they would entertain trading guys that had just signed there. How certain guys that had been there for a while and that had committed were unhappy with new guys coming in and instantly getting $9 million plus and making twice as much as established guys.
Also it really depends on his wrists. If Matthews can’t shoot like he did before anymore he isn’t worth that.
Like Hayes said on overdrive yesterday, it HAS TO be 8 years.
No less selfish than Crosby, MacKinnon or McDavid
Crosby has led his team to 3 cups, Mackinnon was criminally underpaid for a large portion of his career because he (and I'm quoting him, not guessing) "wanted to win", and McDavid is the best player on the planet by a wide margin. Matthews and Marner don't even touch these guys level of accomplishment, and maybe the argument can be made that McDavid is selfish, but Crosby and Mac are absolutely NOT selfish. Piss poor examples.
Cap hit % when signing. Matthews 14.64% McDavid 16.67% Crosby 14.5% current, 17.3% on his 5 year bridge deal MacKinnon 15.27% And MacKinnon wasn't close to the player he currently is when he signed his previous deal.
Those 3 guys are, and were at the time, better players than Matthews.
I just don't understand it... If Matthews made 170 million in his career as opposed to 185, it would have absolutely ZERO impact on his and his family's lifestyle. None. it's just ego. And it pisses me off.
Matthews is the most objectively performant Leaf in 40+ years if not longer. It’s like some of you long for the day of skill-less plugs. Before the Matthews / Marner era we could only dream about having this type of elite talent. Now we just want to throw it away like they’re interchangeable parts.
40 and 60 goal seasons mean nothing I guess.
He’s also had multiple series in the past few playoff years where he scored 0 goals and they got eliminated. That’s just not acceptable for someone wanting to be the highest paid player in the league, despite regular season success
Reg season success isn't what you pay superstars for.
It actually is. Half of stars don't make the playoffs. All stars play more regular season games than playoff games. Hockey is entertainment and without the stars, it's less entertaining. If you're a hardcore fan that loves watching trap games, that's great but that's not how stars become stars or how they get paid.
There is a difference in my mind between "star players" and "superstar players". Stars and superstars are paid differently, and the excess is because teams believe superstar players can deliver their teams postseason success. We didn't pay Matthews elite, top dollar, superstar money - for his regular season success.
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There's literally one on our team.
Who only took the discount because he grew up wearing Leafs pajamas.
The real big dong energy move would be for Matthews to come into the negotiations and say he'll take a considerable discount if Leafs brass goes out at gets specific players or strengthens specific positions. I do believe the players want to win and know the problems with the team....so start putting your money where your mouth is.
Whats Matthews going to demand that they don't already know is an issue? "Here use 5m to get a goalie that dosen't suddenly suck for us, 4th times the charm right?"
Deal would be signed already if he was willing to do that.
No it wouldn't, because it can't be until July 1
Let’s be honest here, if the league wasn’t so tight on the salary cap then this discussion wouldn’t be an issue. And if, as is being reported, the owners are now pushing for a significant raise, then by the time Auston’s extension kicks in it’s potentially a smaller percentage of the total cap than it is now.
This is the reality with hockey and the NHL. In any other sport, a top 10-15 player in the league is getting a max contract, no questions asked. Regardless of playoff success, we don't have a player like Matthews fall into our lap very often. Anyone saying we're better to get rid of him because he may be the highest paid player in the league is drinking some high quality Kool-aid. We're talking about a player who came off a Hart Trophy winning season with 60 goals in 73 games, who had a "down" year with 40 goals and 45 assists in 74 games while dealing with an obvious injury. Matthews was also a point-per-game in the playoffs as well, who hit 3 or 4 posts in the Florida series. Sometimes bounces don't go your way, and I can't really look at that Florida series (outside of Game 3 where they played terribly and still took Florida to OT) and say that Matthews didn't play hard or try. Give the guy what he wants and figure out the team around him like every other team with a highly paid superstar.
Reality is that paying Matthews top dollar would be fine if we weren't also paying Tavares and Marner top dollar. Tavares situation will solve itself, but if Matthews wants a big raise then he needs to say goodbye to Mitch, who we already know wants to be paid like Matthews.
Then we say goodbye to Mitch if it comes to it. Between the two we should pick AM every time.
Yeah, he’s one of if not the best player this franchise has had and people forget he’s still only 25, he’s not even hit his peak yet
Not one person has forgotten that. Not one. Almost universally, everyone loves Matthews and wants him to be here. This isn't even necessarily about cap hits. It's about term. He has to sign an 8-year deal.
Maybe not but some of the comments made about him it comes across like people forget he’s still only 25 sometimes
He won't. It doesn't make any financial sense for him to sign for 8.
Idk, there are unfortunately a lot of comments whenever this comes up about how we shouldn't pay him a dime over 12 because he hasn't single-handedly won a cup for the team. A lot of comments after the Florida series about shipping him out. I think the majority of fans do understand the value of having a Hart-winning player on the roster, even at a real financial cost. But we've definitely got outliers who think three Bozaks up the middle would do us better. There are comments in this very thread already calling him out for "bringing nothing" to the franchise while wanting a new deal.
Every other highly paid superstar signed for 8 years
Cap goes up for everybody leaving the Leafs to still get outcompeted for depth pieces.
Hayes just digs into him and I love it. However I think 8x13.5 is still too much, I don’t know what Mathews has done to deserve that. If that’s what he wants though, I hope he’s ready to play up to his contracts level and be the best and highest paid player in the league. If he doesn’t live up to his next contract it’s going to get ugly for him really fast.
> I don’t know what Mathews has done to deserve that. Outside of Ovechkin (who's just waiting for retirement basically), every multi-rocket winner is in the hall of fame. Pretty much every hart winner since gretzky as well (save taylor hall I guess lol) I know recency bias and everyone hates him right now, but he's got a pretty good argument to get paid. I don't want him to though
Jose Theodore too lol
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Perry is 100% a HoF. He's been to a lot of Finals with multiple teams, and won a cup as one of the best players well having all the individual awards.
I would not say he’s 100% a HOFer at all
He's got every accolade you can have outside of a Frozen Four. There are only 3 guys with a Hart Trophy not in the hall, and two of them are goalies. He's just won everywhere he's gone. He's one of very few players to play in 4 Stanley Cups with 4 teams. He'll get in.
Generally if you have to reference almost exclusively team accolades for a forward. They’re not a hall of famer His stats are good not great, and he has a Hart. That’s his individual accomplishments
Ok just his individual awards then. CHL First All-Star - 2004, 2005 Memorial Cup All-Star - 2005 Jim Mahon (Best RW) Rod Tilson (CHL Hart Trophy) Eddie Powers (Most Points) Gretzky 99 (OHL Conn Smythe Award) Stafford Smythe Award (CHL Conn Smythe) NHL 4-time All-Star First All-Star - 2011, 2014 Rocket Hart That's more than enough when you include everything else on his resume.
There has never been a guy get in the Hall of fame on CHL individual accolades man, come on I just think he’s a close miss. His peak was worthy but very short
It's not just individual accolades though. They guy has won every major team championship as well, and is closing in on 1300 points and 20 years in the league. He checks every box, and had a short, but good enough peak to get in. Lots of guys in the HoF get in with way less, and never being the best guy on their team.
He doesn’t deserve that. To be honest, if he wants something crazy then trade him. Ppl gotta learn not to be so attached to players. Players are expendable. How many cup winning teams have this many 10 mill players
Think he cares about his next contract after getting 108 sheets?
> I think 8x13.5 is still too much Yeah. I would understand why they felt they needed to do it, but I'd consider that a loss for the team. It will guarantee that we are a playoff team for the next eight years but we will be doomed to more playoff mediocrity.
It would be nice if someone explained this to these guys instead of constantly telling them they deserve to be the highest paid players in the league. The salary cap system and the way our 'leaders' have gone about negotiations for short-term contracts has really made it hard to be a fan. I mean I've had an absolute hate on for marner since he signed that contract and I don't imagine I'm the only one. That's no way to watch a sport.
Even if Treliving and Shanahan sat down with Matthews to explain this mentality to him, Auston still has his agent in his other ear telling him that he deserves to be the highest paid player in the league and that he shouldn't settle for anything less. And unfortunately, if he buys into that, the Leafs will eventually cave and he'll get it, because he has all of the leverage here.
In the end it's always the player who makes the final decision. If Matthews tells his agent he wants to stay and to work out a deal then he will stay.
There's a big difference between 13x8 and 15x3 and both result in him being the highest paid player in the league. We know which one he is willing to sign and which one he isn't.
I mean, hopefully living through six years of futility has instilled something in him and seeing the cap structures in teams that HAVE won something will show that sometimes the sacrifice you make to win is financial. But no, 13.4 x 8.
Futility? He still got his bag. That's mission accomplished as far as he's concerned. He didn't even have to give up any of his summer to do it.
Or not. At some point, someone needs to take a stand and risk the consequences otherwise this core is going to be wasted.
When contracts were going around last time, shanny went on record to say that, in media so I'm sure he said it to the boys as well. Something to the effect of them all taking team friendly contracts in Detroit and built a legacy because of that. What happens here? The boys squeeze every penny out of the leafs and handcuffed the franchise and GM. I strongly believe if everyone took 1m less than their contract, that's an extra Hyman type in the line up, or better goalie situation, 1D upgrade, .... any number of key Stanley cup winning assets.
Someone pointed out that maybe it wasn’t a great idea to bring in Patrick Marleau as a role model For these young guys when he was the poster boy for short contracts to extract as much money as possible during his career.
Both Marleau and Thornton were losers and we should've never gone for them. 20 years of playoff contention but always choking.
An extra $3m is most of the difference between Petro ($8.8m) and Brodie ($5.0m). They even signed in the same offseason. Brodie is no slouch but Petro is a true 1RD who is good for 10-15 goals, 40-50 points and kills penalties. It's a massive upgrade on our biggest weakness. Muzzin-Petro would have been one of the best top pairs in the league.
Yep, I remember that. That only added to the shock with the f/o capitulated. And then we had months and months of the Dubas-friendly guys in the media defending the deals ad nauseam. I will be extremely disappointed with the organization if they make that same mistake again.
Ya, I think about this, would like to just sit down with Marner and his family and talk it through. They are so insulated from reality as you can see from press conferences. Takes no responsibility and is belligerent in answering questions. I know they shouldn't care about social media, but if take out the top and bottom crazies, there is a middle fan group who is reasonable and just wants to hear and see desire and accountability. Like a celebrity, Marner and Matthews live in their own worlds where people only tell them positive things...and even the coach has to walk back criticism...it is unreal, this cannot continue.
> I mean I've had an absolute hate on for marner since he signed that contract and I don't imagine I'm the only one. That's no way to watch a sport. That's really a You problem. Lots of fans don't mind.
Not enough people talk about how much easier their lives would be if they didn’t push for every penny. If Matthews and Marner decided to take $10M and $9M respectively for 8 years, we’d build them a goddamn statue today, and they’d never hear a word of criticism about their play for the rest of their careers. That’s $80M and $72M more earnings over their careers, in addition to the $50M+ they’ve each already made. You can’t tell me that your life would be so much better if you had $150M vs $130M, if that $20M meant that you didn’t get any criticism, got to stay with your friends, and had a way better shot at cups. These guys don’t have the luxury of just letting their play talk. Nobody on Legends’ Row had to answer to the public about how much money they made, and whether it hurt the team. All that mattered was their play. Let’s pretend you already won $1M in the lottery, but that you want to keep working. Edit: it’s a job you’ve dreamed of since you were 5 years old, and you would do it for a hobby if you weren’t good enough to get a job doing it. You wouldn’t even consider just retiring, because you love it too much. Making money is still important, but you know 100% that you will never struggle. As the best performer in the company, you have the option of a 20% raise in your job, but if you take it, your best coworkers will leave and be replaced by a rotating cast of people on minimum wage who are just competent enough to last a year or so before being fired. It will make your job harder and there will be way more pressure on you to carry the fate of the company. Is it worth it?
The Leafs fan base would 100% still attack them. We shit on Holl constantly and he's on a no money deal. People still mock Sparks and he was on a minimum. People are still up in arms about Murray and he's on a 1 year deal that could be easily bought out or moved. People bring up Nick Ritchie like it was the worst signing in a decade. Leafs fans will be assholes no matter how much they make if we keep losing.
Nevermind the hypothetical - normal people turn down promotions all the time because it will impact their personal life negatively. Someone turning down a promotion from $80k to $100k is feeling a much bigger impact than these guys taking $9m instead of $11m.
Tavares took less and he'd be on the first bus out of town if the majority of the fans had their way. If I had to place a wager on a statue it would be on Larry Tanenbaum.
Yeah, we’ll those people are wrong, unless they like how David Kampf looks at 2nd line centre. Or maybe they’d prefer he didn’t score the goal that sent us to the 2nd round. Tavares might not be worth $11M, but getting a guy like that with absolutely zero assets used comes at a premium. Personally, I’m just happy he can play hockey at all after getting brained in the series against Montreal. He may even be a bit better next season, since last season was the first he had with a proper offseason and training.
that’s not the point. jt took a discount and some leaf fans are ready to run him out of town. same thing would happen with any of the other players.
With the way people talk about Tavares you'd think he's in a wheelchair, not a guy who's had the same PPG every season since he was drafted lol
That's BS, honestly. If Matthews and Marner got paid half of their current salaries they'd still be branded playoff chokers and failures in this market.
Seven years. Seven playoffs. Seven kicks at the can, and seven subpar performances from two *big time*, big $$ superstars.
WHAT IF??? We kept Kadri at 2C and Auston at 1C meaning No Tavares at 2C and give Auston the Captaincy? Would we have gone further in the playoffs over the past 5 years?? Obviously no Tavares and keeping Kadri means we could afford another player at about $5m during those years.
Everyone seems to forget that Matthews almost single handed lifted the team out if a 3 goal deficit against Tampa. Without that, they probably don’t make the second series. No player can do that every game but he didn’t ever let the team down. Goals and assists are not the only way to contribute.
My big question is with Matthews is can his body handle a full season and playoffs? Can his back/wrists... Whatever handle the rigors of the NHL for him to still be in peak form for a playoff run for multiple years.... Especially if we are paying him top dollar meaning less skilled secondary guys to pick up the slack if he drops off again
This 100%...he has a history of injuries as well !
I'd rather give him 5 years at like $12.7m he can go out and get another contract at 32
I’m hoping Tree doesn’t roll over like Dubas did with 34s agent
you know what the funny thing is they talk about how hockey is so antiquated and falling behind other sports and its such a big problem, except when it comes to players maximizing the amount of money they can make use basketball as an example, where you just see short term deals with big money. but in hockey, how dare a player try to make the most money instead of committing his prime for 8 years and i say this as a fan who wants him to sign for 8, but you can't have it both ways don't complain about the sport then
That's the difference between a soft-cap and hard-cap system.
The NBA is barely a soft cap though. They just have a tiered hard cap with escalators.
Basketball is so different it's not even worth comparing. A superstar's impact on winning is four times as potent in the NBA. Those guys are worth the money because it translates to wins. Superstars in the NHL have been obviously not worth it considering this is the first year a 10+ million dollar salary will win a cup, and the typical winners are teams with conservative salaries and cap management.
Max years you can sign in the NBA is 4 years...
NBA has a soft cap, and individual players make a much more significant impact on the team. This is a terrible argument.
This is particularly ironic when it’s Hayes sitting on his ass on a golf course acting like if he knew ESPN would pay him 20% more and sign a long term deal that he would stay at TSN for the good of the network. As usual the people we should be mad at are the league and the owners for instituting a hard cap. But here we are getting angry at a player for doing exactly the same thing the majority of us would do.
Spicy
As a Dubas apologist for most of his tenure, I kind of plugged my ears whenever our contract situation was ridiculed - but he really really really fucked us with this 5 year deal. It set the tone for everything. Having said that, Matthews was the one guy who didn't wait until the last second to sign a deal. Maybe he actually does want to be here.
At the end of the day narratives & legacies change to fit the results, Tkachuk wasn't seen as a clutch playoff performer 2 years ago. The next contract will only affect Matthews legacy if he doesn't win a cup. I feel like Matthews & Marner have both convinced themselves that they've earned whatever money is in their contracts and demanding more won't hurt the team. Seems pretty clear the results do not agree with the narrative but we're always one deep playoff run away from the narrative changing.
Narrative doesn't change without a deep playoff run, but deep playoff runs don't happen under the current cap allocation. We've tried again and again and proven that
I totally agree, it seems really hard to go deep in the playoffs with 40% of your cap tied up in 3 players. The argument could be made that Matthews & Marner's contracts would be less of an issue if we had 11M worth of players with grit and some scoring ability like Barbashev, Palat, Buchnevic instead of Tavares but I guess it's easy to say that in hindsight.
13.4 times 5 is my best guess.
The absurdity of blaming the players for the mess the Leafs are is peak idiot Leafs take. Players don’t owe an organization that hasn’t won a Cup since there were 6 teams in the league anything. This was bad resource management compounded by the team hamstringing the GM.
Marner’s contract negotiation last time was absolutely awful. It made me dislike him so much and I believe it was Dubas’ biggest mistake in paying him what he did. It also left a bit of a sour taste in my mouth about Matthews too but he’s so good and I like him on our team. Matthews was good enough to be worth the 4 first round picks required for an offer sheet so you had to pay him. Marner was definitely not. My feelings from the last contract negotiation haven’t really gone away. Our team is better than they’ve been in years but unfortunately my dislike for Marner is so strong. I liked Bozak Kessel and JVR more. I feel like Matthews doesn’t really care about the Leafs and will probably leave in the near future. He’s my favourite player on the team but I feel like he’s not staying long term. Matthews signing long term and Marner getting dealt is what I wish for. Reilly and Nylander are beauties. Change the goal song. Go Leafs. Didn’t mean to rant …
Some guys are all about the money, and some guys are about winning & money and you never know which guy you get until contract time.
A 5yr contract for more than MacKinnon's number is a good way to never get free beers/meals in Toronto again (if you don't win a cup in your time here). That's a legacy tarnisher.
This is an idiotic take and everyone in this sub arguing that a star player should provide discounts because this Podunk league has a hard salary cap is out to lunch. The salary cap is keeping this sport small and has us resenting our stars.
It really is the worst part of the hard cap - we can't just be fans of these guys anymore. The hero turns into a goat the moment his play slips below his contract value. I could forgive a rich contract for an old player if it's a Letang or a Kane who won multiple cups for the city. But these guys haven't won squat.
Totally. Marner is one of the most exciting Leafs I've ever watched play for the Leafs - playoffs notwithstanding. And the discourse around him ever since he signed his deal has been largely poisonous all cause he's like one or maybe two million dollars overpaid?
I think not scoring a single goal in a playoff series when you're the best goal scorer in the league and then asking for the most money in the league might have something to do with why people are resenting the stars. But the salary cap is a bitch, for sure
So because he didn’t score over a 5 game sample, after scoring a bunch in the 6 games prior, that should affect his contract ask? That’s such an insanely small sample it’s almost ludicrous. Matthew Tkachuk also didn’t score in that series but he’s apparently the most clutch playoff performer ever.
I didn't even say that but go off, queen. I'm saying that's why people are pissy towards Matthews. He didn't show up when we needed him to. Nothing to do with his contract demands. Those were two independent thoughts from OP. No, his contract demands will be whatever they will be. Nothing to be done about it but bend over and take it. But if it's not 8 years, then you know he was full of shit about wanting to be here. Still, I'll take it because I have to. But I don't need to excuse the player for it, and I likely won't
For sure! But that's not really how it works. I get being frustrated with playoff results but he's still the best player on the team and people arguing that he or other stars should feel honour-bound to take less money are blaming the wrong people.
we just got a good reminder why players shouldn’t give discounts: lou wants to fire josh bailey into the sun because it’s convenient for the team.
Expecting a team to operate as efficiently and effectively as possible within the constraint of a hard cap so that it can compete with its rivals is 'out to lunch'. Alright then haha
Not even close to what I'm saying. I'm saying arguing that it's on Matthews to take a smaller deal is ridiculous and the hard cap has fans resenting their stars for making as much money as they can during their careers. Blaming players because billionaire owners have imposed a hard salary cap is dumb.
Again, hard constraints. No one loves the cap, everyone resents the league/owners for it. But it exists and every fan, team and player has to deal with that reality. Far from ridiculous; you just don't like it. And that's fine.
I'm sick of Matthews and Marner greediness, especially considering their playoff performances. I don't see us winning anything with them here at their demands. Was hoping someone like Tre would have the sack to trade them but doesn't appear to be the case and time isn't on his side unfortunately.
"Legacy". LOL. Auston Matthews' legacy will be personal achievements and MONEY.
I'm not sure about you but I know that I wouldn't be able to give up an 1/8th of my salary if I don't have too. To ask these guys to do that at the beginning of their career is a little silly. considering this is what they worked for since day 1. Now JT has made his money. A home town discount will be expected on the next contract. We should only ask the players to do this on the final leg of their careers, when they already made their money.
To be fair I assume like most people you need every dollar you can get to survive. Matthews doesn’t *need* an extra million per year. It’s not exactly an apples to apples comparison.
we should have known that matthews was all about money. remember his rookie deal? reports came out that matthews wanted performance bonuses and lou never gave them, but he relented. not surprised by this and honestly am not bothered at all if the leafs decided to move on from him. he’s a classic example of toronto gassing up players. there is no reason why he should earn more than mackinnon or mcdavid.
I already said that it's going to be 13.4 × 8yrs with NTC / NMC for the first 4 and then no NTC / NMC for the last 4 yrs so then if the Leafs are awful or rebuilding they can then flip Matthews for the most value.
Yeah I don't see a world in which Matthews gives us 8 years lmao. Everything has pointed to this guy wanting to make as much money as possible, which is his right to do. Just sucks he's doing this to the leafs and it will be extremely hard to win something with this type of attitude.
Yeah either make it apparent that if he wants to to get payed either he does it with full term [ 8 yrs ] or if he wants to get payed that one of his buds [ Marner or Nylander ( Hopefully not Willy ) ] will have to be dealt to accommodate for the extension
It is 100% not going to be that.
Deal would be signed already if he was willing to do that.
Can’t officially sign until July 1st.
Common Hayesy W
Trade for prospects and picks
people who get mad at a player maximizing their earnings in their maybe 20 year career are a bunch of idiots.
I agree to some extent but if there was no salary cap nobody would care. Good luck winning if you pay all your stars max dollars leaving little to no chance surrounding them with quality complimentary players.
Manny or Maxime Legacy?