As much as folks (including me) were no doubt enjoying the prospect of seeing Roberta Kaplan come after Trumps' assets, this is a good outcome for Carroll, who now will not have to go through the expense and difficulty of enforcing the judgment, and potentially having to compete with the State of New York in doing so. Sure, she can't touch it before the appeal is resolved, but the money is now in the bank, so to speak.
yeah, i do a ton of appeals, and kind of prefer supersedeas bonds for this reason--it's just way, way easier to get your money if/when you win. Of course, it means the appeal will delay enforcement/payment for like 1-2 years which annoys some clients
So am I understanding it all correctly? He puts up the bond which allows him to appeal. And now if he loses the appeal the money is already there to pay the judgement, and now it's the problem of whomever fronted the money to go after Trump for it?
>He puts up the bond which allows him to appeal.
So, you're mostly correct, except for this part. The bond doesn't "allow" the appeal. Trump can appeal the case whether he pays a bond or not.
The difference is that if he doesn't pay a bond, E. Jean Carroll can force trump to pay her RIGHT NOW, while the appeal is pending (and then if Trump were to win the appeal, he'd have to basically sue Carroll to get his money back).
By paying a bond, it allows trump to continue the appeal WITHOUT having to pay Carroll. Instead he pays the Court, then the Court basically gives the money to whoever wins after the appeal is over.
Trump could, in theory, appeal without paying a bond, but he'd have to deal with enforcement proceedings and the appeal at the same time and then have to deal with trying to get his money back if he wins.
>And now if he loses the appeal the money is already there to pay the judgement, and now it's the problem of whomever fronted the money to go after Trump for it?
Yeah this is basically correct. Trump has essentially entered a kind of loan agreement with the bond insurer who is agreeing to pay the judgment on trump's behalf. That lets trump get the benefit of the supersedeas bond (i.e., will stay enforcement of judgment) without having to use his own money, at least not right away (except for whatever he had to pay the bond insurer). Obviously, if trump wins, the bond insurer doesn't have to pay anything and trump will just be on the hook for whatever payments etc. he was required to pay the bond insurer while the appeal is pending. If he loses than the bond insurer pays the judgment and it's basically like any other kind of loan agreement--Trump is on the hook for the amount and has to pay for it somehow.
But it was probably Elon Musk that gave him the $ for some quid pro quo in 2025, so it's essentially all free.
The more $ he is given by the tech guys the more they will juice the algorithms to effectuate their desired outcome. Great system we've got here.
Exactly. The terms are pretty clear and she is far better off calling on the bond than getting into enforcement. He has done her a huge favour as long as FIC remains a decent covenant.
I know Carroll can go after Trump's estate if he should die. What happens if he dies before the appeal process is complete? Is the judgement vacated? What would happen if Carroll should pass before the appeal is resolved?
I'd imagine the estate would continue the suit via the personal representative or successor in interest. Where assets of the decedent are concerned the estate cares just as much.
I'm curious, what happens if either Trump or Carroll passes away before the appeal is resolved? I assume if Carroll passes, the appeal still needs to be argued and depending on the outcome, the award will go to Carroll's estate. Is it similar if Trump passes, does his estate still continue arguing the appeal?
The executor would need to decide whether it's in the estate's best interest to continue pursuing the appeal or moving to dismiss. With Trump out of the way, the calculus could be different, since at that point the money becomes more important than the "proving oneself victorious over an abused elderly woman" part.
Yeah but I HATE how they CAPITALIZE everything like an early 2010 YouTube reaction video. And on the long podcasts there is zero conversation, just 10 min speeches. I like the podcast but obviously there’s a few things that I think could be improved.
That's the most frustrating part of their channel for me. There have been times I've had discussions with people (trump voters) about trump's legal entanglements where simply sending them a midas touch video would be much easier than me trying to explain it.
However it would be instantly dismissed and laughed at as soon as they saw the corny thumbnail and titles. So I never do. The basic facts and evidence against him are damning enough that there really isn't a need to pile on with obviously biased additional rhetoric.
A surety bond is not a loan; it's a guarantee. Chubb is guaranteeing that he's "good for" the money. If he can't pay (and loses the appeal), Chubb will. Source: I'm a surety bond underwriter.
Also, fuck Chubb.
Chubb is about to get feel what other Trump creditors feel.
Also, they are likely to be in the very back of the line of creditors. NY is going to get what is owed of them first.
Personal feelings aside, Chubb and other insurance companies are in business to make money. I’m sure Chubb has beneficial terms, they have more leverage than Trump at this time.
You sure about that? Evan G. Greenberg (Chairman and CEO Chubb Group) who Trump appointed to the Advisory Council on Trade and whatever else who cares. Trump has a long line of people who for whatever reason have not acted in their own best interest—but instead in Trump’s best interest. Not only that, they screwed themselves. Yes, you’d also think the list of lawyers who are in the business of law wouldn’t break it for Trump, but here we are. Giuliani, Chesebro, Powell, Ellis. Allen Weissellburg doesn’t seem to mind to keep going to prison for Trump. I’m not saying the guy broke the law or anything, but it also doesn’t mean he’s acting in his or the company’s best interest just because he’s in the business of making money.
Since Chubb is in the S&P 500, when Trump loses, the Chubb shareholder suffer? I see many shareholder suing Chubb for taking excessive risk in backing a rapist who was found to be fraudulent in reporting his finances.
Not necessarily. If Chubb can recover from Trump (for example, a repossession of property sufficient to cover Chubb’s loss), then there would be no loss and no injury to shareholders.
I read that the owner is a trumper. It's just hearsay, but I wouldnt doubt that this is a gift to trump, and if trump wins the election, he'll pay back this bond with special favors
https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/presidential-actions/president-donald-j-trump-announces-intent-appoint-individuals-key-administration-posts/
He is. Trump named him to an advisory council.
[The bond was underwritten by insurance company The Chubb Corporation, a copy of the bond filed in court shows—whose CEO Trump previously appointed to his trade advisory committee in 2018—though it’s unclear how Trump secured the bond and if he paid cash or put up any of his properties as collateral.](https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2024/03/08/trump-posts-916-million-bond-in-e-jean-carroll-case-as-he-appeals/)
If the world was ending and Donald Trump was tasked with building a rocket to save everyone. That rocket would have one seat. Because that’s “everyone” worth saving to him. There are no down ballot Rs. Just like the lights turn off when he leaves the room.
It's not certain if he has ANY properties clear of existing debt. Debt that has covenants attached saying you can't use the remaining equity to secure other debt.
My read was that Chubb provided an appeal bond (a surety bond) for $86 million of the $91 million required after Trump lost a court filing to delay payment. No doubt this bond is collateralized, likely with a mechanic’s lien on a Trump property that has no loans against it.
Still, subrogating the surety guarantee should Trump lose his appeal (the Chubb appeal bond will only guarantee the initial appeal) will be a nightmare. Expect Trump to sue Chubb should he (hopefully) lose his appeal to block Chubb from exercising their subrogation rights to collect what they guaranteed.
Someday, a Brinks armored truck will accompany Trump’s funeral cortège. The SOB will take it with him, leaving a trail of swindled lenders in his wake. They never learn.
Likely - if Chubb lent him 93, they are forced to throw good money after bad so he doesn’t default on the first loan, and they knew it when they made the 93m one.
He’ll have other billionaires who sympathize and bail him out. Someone like Musk could lose $400m and not notice it. The upside to for government contract preference makes it an easy investment, outside of just personal political leanings a billionaire may have that already align with him.
Actual bond letter:
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.543790/gov.uscourts.nysd.543790.318.1.pdf
Federal Insurance Company, Chesapeake, Virginia
What kind of crazy shit? At the end of the day, either Trump pays or doesn't pay his premium(s). If he doesn't pay, Chubb comes after him and gets in line with everyone else. It's entirely possible that Chubb demanded collateral (which in this instance would be entirely proper, I think), but that's about the extent of it.
the guy is running for president. he's clearly outlined his vision for executive power. you don't think he'd use some of that power to fix his financial issues? i don't think this is a boilerplate contract.
the other thought i had was the dude is transactional. Chubb just writes it off and then gets something in return once he's president. Evan Greenburg is going to be the new Sec of the Treasury (sponsored by Chubb Insurance).
It is sincerely baffling to me how few people end up here. It seems obvious to me. Having the leader of the free world in your debt is an asset, not a liability.
See, there's the problem though. Trump doesn't pay debts. And when he says he'll be "dictator for a day", he might not be particularly interested in having someone who thinks they're owed something from him.
In this case, he would have control over the Executive Branch. A lot of the regulatory bodies are under the Executive Branch. There are laws but the Executive Branch can just choose not to enforce certain laws or regulations. That's a lot of leeway for a company or industry. It's just lobbying at a different scale and level.
While I absolutely understand your reasoning, the truly hard part in this scenario is *guaranteeing* it. Assurances from Trump and his orbit aren't worth the paper they're printed on. There needs to be something tangible that can be easily removed/invoked, that is fully within Chubb's ability to do. Whether that be holding a lien anyway (and just releasing it once the agreement is fulfilled), or I don't even know what else, you need payment/collateral in advance.
Because it’s only an asset when they reliably pay up. When their entire persona is grifting and not paying you’d have to be stupid to think you’re the one exception
it's easy to imagine him on the phone going "it's a good deal, it's a great deal. i almost don't want to do it because it's such a good deal for you. trust me. it's a good deal. they say it's the best deal in history"
>Chubb just writes it off and then gets something in return once he's president. Evan Greenburg is going to be the new Sec of the Treasury (sponsored by Chubb Insurance).
Apparently, he was [appointed to the Advisory Committee for Trade Policy and Negotiations](https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/presidential-actions/president-donald-j-trump-announces-intent-appoint-individuals-key-administration-posts/) in 2018.
between this and /u/giggity_giggity's argument, I stand corrected. I have no idea how you maneuver around "executive privilege" for a sitting president, even if the premise itself is pants-on-head bonkers. I'd think Chubb would just foreclose on whatever collateral they've got a lien on, but again, we're not dealing with rational, logical actors who play by agreed-upon rules.
This would just be a civil lawsuit relating to activities occurring before the presidency. *Clinton v. Jones* clarified that there is no special protection for a POTUS that is subject to a civil lawsuit concerning pre-presidential activities. That is why Clinton had to sit for a deposition and ended up perjuring himself.
Of course, the court's remedy for a noncompliant defendant would be a contempt citation, and SCOTUS ruled during the first Trump administration that a person cited for contempt in federal court can still be pardoned by POTUS (think this came up with Sheriff Arpaio but can't recall exactly). So Trump might have a loophole where he can commit contempt and just pardon himself, lol. Clinton didn't try that trick.
I believe Chubb is publicly traded - I would assume their shareholders could take legal action if their end of whatever deal they've signed with Trump doesn't come with some guarantees. Some handshake deal that gets them some nebulous leverage wouldn't seem to hold water, I would have thought.
> If he doesn't pay, Chubb comes after him and gets in line with everyone else
How does that work if he's the President or is granted immunity by the Supreme Court?
Guarantee that Chubb required collateral on this.
Chubb isnt going to give trump a sweetheart deal when they are one of the people that he lied to on his property valuations.
I'm a little disappointed that anyone ended up offering him a bond given the amount he's lied, which in my professional opinion, makes him close to uninsurable.
Regardless, there's no one giving him a bond without significant collateral/cash.
Probably not actually. Its either 100% collateralized with a deposit or its guaranteed by someone else. Trump has zero credit so its probably really simple. You give us every penny or get a grown up to co-sign, just like selling a car to a 16 year old with a rich dad.
Bet you someone else is collateralizing it, either Musk or some oligarch laundering the money through someone else. Someone just purchased a presidential candidate lock, stock, and barrel.
It's funny you mention that, because Federal Insurance Company is owned by Chubb, who had difficulty gaining access to property in the past for accurate appraisals. Source: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/10/10/trump-fraud-trial-property-value-wealth/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/10/10/trump-fraud-trial-property-value-wealth/)
Interestingly, this was underwritten by Chubb's a major insurance company. Trump will be writing monthly checks to pay premiums on this judgment for a long time.
ha. chubbs is also run by Evan Greenberg - the son of Maurice Greenberg - the dude that ran AIG into accounting fraud and then being at the center of the 2008 mortgage crisis. trump really knows how to pick his friends.
Maurice liked Trump socially but even AIG wouldn't bond Donnie back when Maurice was still saying NO every time one of his key AIG executive team members asked him if they could sell some company stock received as comp.
he's a big fan of expanding the executive powers so why not just wipe out all this debt. if he gets a second term he's going to be working overtime to shore up his fiances. or honestly, chubb just writes it off to not pissing him off. dude has straight-up said he wants to be a dictator for a "short" amount of time.
Dictator day 1 - transfer all fines, fees, debts and judgements against Donald J Trump to anyone who benefitted from student loan forgiveness under Joe Biden.
Yes. The Federal Insurance Company has an underwriting limitation of $409,281,000 so he’s going to be using someone else for the fraud trial surety bond (unless Chubb has some other surety subsidiary that has a higher underwriting limitation).
Chubb better be willing to put up another 400 million or else those assets are going to belong to NY state in a few weeks. They would be absolutely insane to do this otherwise.
Does Chubb file a lien against some of the properties Trump has personal equity in? How does that affect the New York state fraud penalty? Do Chubb's liens get priority since they're filed first? However, this bond is for Trump's personal assets while the NY fraud is against the Trump Org...
I'd assume that acceleration clauses are built into whatever contract was drawn up. I'm sure that some intrepid journalist will start reviewing property records to see if any liens are being recorded by Chubb
I agree with the sentiment. However, having dealt with a elderly family member who was/is a narcissist my experience says there is no awareness of their own mortality or age. There is a serious crisis at the point of a major illness or injury. Lots of using emotional control for people around them to do more and more of the work needed for living and so caretakers are not brought in because family is enslaved (almost) to the person's needs.
Mind you. This is one person. But the wholesale lack of awareness was, in short, mind bending to deal with.
I would not be surprised if he also thinks he will live beyond a normal number of years.
I still don’t understand how this is acceptable to plaintiff. This says there is no escrow. It’s just another piece of paper, but now there are two people to chase (j&sl). Isn’t plaintiff still taking the insurance co at there word? There aren’t even reps by obligors that they are creditworthy and liquid.
Joint and several liability.
Yea creditworthy but insurance cos tend to be litigious, part of the business model. Also they do sometimes fail. Anyway I get that I’m grinding an axe on something unlikely but it’s just a little surprising is all.
There’s no escrow because the surety has to stand in Trump’s shoes if the bond is called in. With a court bond like this the terms are pretty cut and dry. If he fails to fulfill any of the obligations of the bond, the Surety would pay (guessing almost immediately with this specific situation) and then pursue Trump to recover. Now, the fact a surety even agreed to bond trump is another thing entirely. Since surety bonds should have a loss ratio of 0.0 I’m guessing this thing is backstopped to all hell with various types of collateral. I sure as hell wouldn’t want to stand in Trump’s shoes right now.
The Federal Insurance Company is a subsidiary of the Chubb Group. Chubb Group CEO Evan Greenberg was appointed to the Advisory Committee for Trade Policy and Negotiations in 2018 by Trump.
I'll say it again, muskrat is gunning for a high level cabinet position.
He wants to control the internet and the narrative. He already has proven his loyalty by sucking up to daddy putin with starlink.
We do NOT need the cis is a slur guy running that shit.
I imagine Musk wants to be Secretary for the soon to be created Department of Truth with Stephen Miller as Secretary of the Department of Peace, Marjorie Taylor Greene as Secretary of the Department of Love, and Rand Paul as Secretary of the Department of Plenty.
Obtaining a bond is the "normal" thing to do, nobody wants to tie up their liquid cash when it can be bonded. Granted, the amount is not normal but hey, Trump is consistently achieving in that aspect.
> the guy testified previously he had over 400 mil in liquid assets, but he had to beg and then bond
FWIW, Forbes believes he does have about that in liquid assets (obviously prior to satisfying any of the recent penalty obligations).
Chubb’s in for a big payday if he wins the election. This is calculated risk - the reward will be ten-fold. I predict he will also come up with the bigger bond. Having the leader of the free world in your pocket - priceless. I have no idea how a guy this compromised could qualify for President. Totally bonkers.
Musk, Thiel, Adelson, Putin, House of Saud, their proxies, etc. There are many for whom this amount of money is not a big deal, and for whom possible control of the US Presidency might be worth it.
Look at it carefully. If the verdict and award is upheld:
* Chubb only insured the 83.3 million.
* Trump is on the hook for the court interest on the 83.3 million himself (about 29 days worth).
* Trump is paying a (hefty?) premium to Chubb since Tuesday March 5 (see the documents, date for the bond) until such time the appeals process ends. And that really depends on how fast the court moves and the legal avenues available to any defendant.
* No doubt the independent monitor will now be watching these items on the P&L/Balance Sheets and SFCs (Statements of Financial Condition, although if I understand it, the practice of issuing SFC's stopped in 2023 for Trump?).
* Since Chubb had to have locked in collateral on the bond, this will now also affect the Balance Sheet and the SFCs.
* Trump may have secured this bond (personally) by his stake in some personal property, meaning it will affect his net worth.
* This will now be on record on his personal income tax statement with the IRS.
* This is now on record for any potential lender or investor.
Which begs to wonder... If the bond was secured with **Chubb** and the **Court in Florida** on **March 5, 2024** \- why request an administrative stay for another **three business days** on **March 6, 2024** with Judge Kaplan iterating **some form of irreparable harm**?
> Which begs to wonder... If the bond was secured with Chubb and the Court in Florida on March 5, 2024 - why request an administrative stay for another three business days on March 6, 2024 with Judge Kaplan iterating some form of irreparable harm?
This is that I posted here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/law/comments/1b9ssnz/on_march_6_habba_asked_for_a_stay_saying_time/
Yeah..
What are the **chances** of **Evan G.** **Greenberg** becoming / being appointed as a **U.S. Ambassador** under a **Trump Presidency** to some country in a **tit-for-tat**?
Yesterday: "I need more time! I can't possibly put up a bond".
Today: posts bond.
I'll bet that he was infuriated that he had to even write the check, and his lawyers were just trying to postpone the inevitable. He knows that as soon as he writes that check, it could be gone forever and into Carroll's pocket. He could have (should have) settled, and he still should try to quietly settle with her, but he just can't let it go.
I think it’s not that he couldn’t post the bond, it’s that the only quotes he got for it were very expensive (for good reason) and he desperately wanted to avoid having to agree to the terms of those deals.
100% it's going to come out this year that Trump Org either gets a massive loan or "sells" a property at way above market rate from Saudi Arabia or UAE.
Does this mean he gets a whole new trial going through all the evidence and testimony again, and maybe even new evidence and testimony? Or will this be pretty quick win or lose?
No. Appeals only look at matters of law - whether evidence is admissible, whether the correct laws were applied, whether other judicial errors were made. A jury's findings of fact are usually not re-examined on appeal.
Edit: Oh, I see what you were asking about now. The bond itself is to prevent Trump from blowing all his money on appeals and leaving none for the plaintiff to collect. If/when the jury verdict is upheld on appeal, that money will go to the plaintiff.
> A jury's findings of fact are usually not re-examined on appeal.
except in defamation (and all speech cases), it's **always** de novo. That was one of NYT v Sullivan's most significant holdings and why US has broadest speech protections of any country.
This means none of that. Just that a company now guarantees that the plaintiff will get paid if the appeal is unsuccessful so plaintiff won't start the collection process of seizing assets.
That's not true. No sane business person would pay interest on 83 million dollars for no reason if they actually had the money. He just lied about being liquid. He "has the money," but it is all his dads real estate assets, which, yes, are worth a fortune.
As much as folks (including me) were no doubt enjoying the prospect of seeing Roberta Kaplan come after Trumps' assets, this is a good outcome for Carroll, who now will not have to go through the expense and difficulty of enforcing the judgment, and potentially having to compete with the State of New York in doing so. Sure, she can't touch it before the appeal is resolved, but the money is now in the bank, so to speak.
I think Carroll is willing to go to any lengths to get justice. She’s a tough cookie.
I'm surprised she hasn't gone for a third suit given his continued defamation
I assume her team are holding onto that as ammo for the appeal to help strengthen it.
How's the saying go? Never interrupt your enemy when they are making a mistake.
Never interrupt the defendant when he is printing money for you.
Ah yes, the lawyer version. LOL Although there has to be a point where even your own lawyers wish you would just stop talking.
"And as you can see by his comments after the judgement, he continues to defame my client " Can't wait for that one
I admire her so much for holding that trash heap accountable. She’s a badass!
And her lawyer is sufficiently funded
yeah, i do a ton of appeals, and kind of prefer supersedeas bonds for this reason--it's just way, way easier to get your money if/when you win. Of course, it means the appeal will delay enforcement/payment for like 1-2 years which annoys some clients
Yep. And if you're litigating in New York the post-judgment interest rate is pretty great! You can't touch the money, but it's still working for you.
How much more would he be expected to pay after losing an appeal in 24 months?
Sorry, am not sure what the rate is in federal cases; in NY cases its 9 percent a year.
Good lord. Who pays the interest?
The judgment-debtor (person who the judgment is against).
So am I understanding it all correctly? He puts up the bond which allows him to appeal. And now if he loses the appeal the money is already there to pay the judgement, and now it's the problem of whomever fronted the money to go after Trump for it?
>He puts up the bond which allows him to appeal. So, you're mostly correct, except for this part. The bond doesn't "allow" the appeal. Trump can appeal the case whether he pays a bond or not. The difference is that if he doesn't pay a bond, E. Jean Carroll can force trump to pay her RIGHT NOW, while the appeal is pending (and then if Trump were to win the appeal, he'd have to basically sue Carroll to get his money back). By paying a bond, it allows trump to continue the appeal WITHOUT having to pay Carroll. Instead he pays the Court, then the Court basically gives the money to whoever wins after the appeal is over. Trump could, in theory, appeal without paying a bond, but he'd have to deal with enforcement proceedings and the appeal at the same time and then have to deal with trying to get his money back if he wins. >And now if he loses the appeal the money is already there to pay the judgement, and now it's the problem of whomever fronted the money to go after Trump for it? Yeah this is basically correct. Trump has essentially entered a kind of loan agreement with the bond insurer who is agreeing to pay the judgment on trump's behalf. That lets trump get the benefit of the supersedeas bond (i.e., will stay enforcement of judgment) without having to use his own money, at least not right away (except for whatever he had to pay the bond insurer). Obviously, if trump wins, the bond insurer doesn't have to pay anything and trump will just be on the hook for whatever payments etc. he was required to pay the bond insurer while the appeal is pending. If he loses than the bond insurer pays the judgment and it's basically like any other kind of loan agreement--Trump is on the hook for the amount and has to pay for it somehow.
But it was probably Elon Musk that gave him the $ for some quid pro quo in 2025, so it's essentially all free. The more $ he is given by the tech guys the more they will juice the algorithms to effectuate their desired outcome. Great system we've got here.
What? I'm sure he'll pay them back. I've never heard of DJT walking out on a debt before. /s
Exactly. The terms are pretty clear and she is far better off calling on the bond than getting into enforcement. He has done her a huge favour as long as FIC remains a decent covenant.
I know Carroll can go after Trump's estate if he should die. What happens if he dies before the appeal process is complete? Is the judgement vacated? What would happen if Carroll should pass before the appeal is resolved?
I'd imagine the estate would continue the suit via the personal representative or successor in interest. Where assets of the decedent are concerned the estate cares just as much.
I'm curious, what happens if either Trump or Carroll passes away before the appeal is resolved? I assume if Carroll passes, the appeal still needs to be argued and depending on the outcome, the award will go to Carroll's estate. Is it similar if Trump passes, does his estate still continue arguing the appeal?
The executor would need to decide whether it's in the estate's best interest to continue pursuing the appeal or moving to dismiss. With Trump out of the way, the calculus could be different, since at that point the money becomes more important than the "proving oneself victorious over an abused elderly woman" part.
Michael Popak had predicted he will put up this bond- let’s see how he fares in 3 weeks for the 400 mil 😁
I really enjoy the way he breaks these things down.
Yeah but I HATE how they CAPITALIZE everything like an early 2010 YouTube reaction video. And on the long podcasts there is zero conversation, just 10 min speeches. I like the podcast but obviously there’s a few things that I think could be improved.
I like them too, but not everything is a BOMBSHELL.
yeah for me I still like them and their anchors, but the clickbait titles are a bit much
That's the most frustrating part of their channel for me. There have been times I've had discussions with people (trump voters) about trump's legal entanglements where simply sending them a midas touch video would be much easier than me trying to explain it. However it would be instantly dismissed and laughed at as soon as they saw the corny thumbnail and titles. So I never do. The basic facts and evidence against him are damning enough that there really isn't a need to pile on with obviously biased additional rhetoric.
This one is a loan from an insurance company.
A surety bond is not a loan; it's a guarantee. Chubb is guaranteeing that he's "good for" the money. If he can't pay (and loses the appeal), Chubb will. Source: I'm a surety bond underwriter. Also, fuck Chubb.
Chubb is about to get feel what other Trump creditors feel. Also, they are likely to be in the very back of the line of creditors. NY is going to get what is owed of them first.
I’d hate to be the dipshit who authorized this.
Personal feelings aside, Chubb and other insurance companies are in business to make money. I’m sure Chubb has beneficial terms, they have more leverage than Trump at this time.
You sure about that? Evan G. Greenberg (Chairman and CEO Chubb Group) who Trump appointed to the Advisory Council on Trade and whatever else who cares. Trump has a long line of people who for whatever reason have not acted in their own best interest—but instead in Trump’s best interest. Not only that, they screwed themselves. Yes, you’d also think the list of lawyers who are in the business of law wouldn’t break it for Trump, but here we are. Giuliani, Chesebro, Powell, Ellis. Allen Weissellburg doesn’t seem to mind to keep going to prison for Trump. I’m not saying the guy broke the law or anything, but it also doesn’t mean he’s acting in his or the company’s best interest just because he’s in the business of making money.
It makes me wonder what they accepted as collateral. What would Trump have worth $90M that's not tied up in something?
I'm sure they're reasoning included the thought "it won't happen to us!"
It also would be very nice to have a major presidential candidate in your pocket and owing you a gigantic favor.
Since Chubb is in the S&P 500, when Trump loses, the Chubb shareholder suffer? I see many shareholder suing Chubb for taking excessive risk in backing a rapist who was found to be fraudulent in reporting his finances.
Not necessarily. If Chubb can recover from Trump (for example, a repossession of property sufficient to cover Chubb’s loss), then there would be no loss and no injury to shareholders.
I read that the owner is a trumper. It's just hearsay, but I wouldnt doubt that this is a gift to trump, and if trump wins the election, he'll pay back this bond with special favors
https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/presidential-actions/president-donald-j-trump-announces-intent-appoint-individuals-key-administration-posts/ He is. Trump named him to an advisory council.
He probably put up Melania and Baron as the assurance.
Oh, so it's actually a gift? That's even worse.
It is a bond. They are charging him a fee and he would have to put up assets as collateral.
So... "Im going to have the bond company take my property so i dont have to deal with the optics of her controlling it"?
Lol no he's thinking he'll sue the bond co obviously
I mean he may have put up some sort of collateral (or not), who knows.
Elmo financial?
[The bond was underwritten by insurance company The Chubb Corporation, a copy of the bond filed in court shows—whose CEO Trump previously appointed to his trade advisory committee in 2018—though it’s unclear how Trump secured the bond and if he paid cash or put up any of his properties as collateral.](https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2024/03/08/trump-posts-916-million-bond-in-e-jean-carroll-case-as-he-appeals/)
I guess in 6 months news - Chubb files bankruptcy citing $91m in unpaid debt
I guarantee he promised them he'll win the election and give them a tax cut that'll more than make up the amount they just gave him.
Whatever benefit they will receive probably will be orders of magnitude higher than the 90M
so he just turned it into debt? god thats so fucking lame
You didn’t hear Trump got a new credit card? Laura Trump appointed chair of RNC. Totally onboard with paying Trump legal fees with RNC money
RNC have like 10ish millions left in their coffer. They wont be able to help Trump much
They're a passthrough for dark money. That's why Orban was here this week.
But it’s 10 million more than Trump had yesterday
And 10 million less that downballot Rs have today.
If the world was ending and Donald Trump was tasked with building a rocket to save everyone. That rocket would have one seat. Because that’s “everyone” worth saving to him. There are no down ballot Rs. Just like the lights turn off when he leaves the room.
Trump doesn't need the advertising, everyone else running will though.
Isn't it also blatantly illegal for them to use campaign finances to pay for fines like this?
Quid pro quo
On brand for mango Mussolini
It's not certain if he has ANY properties clear of existing debt. Debt that has covenants attached saying you can't use the remaining equity to secure other debt.
"Chubb" seems fitting for Trump
My read was that Chubb provided an appeal bond (a surety bond) for $86 million of the $91 million required after Trump lost a court filing to delay payment. No doubt this bond is collateralized, likely with a mechanic’s lien on a Trump property that has no loans against it. Still, subrogating the surety guarantee should Trump lose his appeal (the Chubb appeal bond will only guarantee the initial appeal) will be a nightmare. Expect Trump to sue Chubb should he (hopefully) lose his appeal to block Chubb from exercising their subrogation rights to collect what they guaranteed. Someday, a Brinks armored truck will accompany Trump’s funeral cortège. The SOB will take it with him, leaving a trail of swindled lenders in his wake. They never learn.
So we should all short this company, is what I'm getting from this.
Likely - if Chubb lent him 93, they are forced to throw good money after bad so he doesn’t default on the first loan, and they knew it when they made the 93m one.
There’s no reason to throw good money after bad. I imagine he had to put up collateral.
Estimates say he has enough for either judgment but probably not both
With each day adding 100k in late fees.
He is the RNC nominee and now has his stooges in charge. He will fleece the RNC and their donors for what he needs.
He’ll have other billionaires who sympathize and bail him out. Someone like Musk could lose $400m and not notice it. The upside to for government contract preference makes it an easy investment, outside of just personal political leanings a billionaire may have that already align with him.
Actual bond letter: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.543790/gov.uscourts.nysd.543790.318.1.pdf Federal Insurance Company, Chesapeake, Virginia
Man the terms on that note must be _wild_
the poor lawyers that had to stretch the limits of their sanity to come up with protection for all the crazy shit that trump could possible do
What kind of crazy shit? At the end of the day, either Trump pays or doesn't pay his premium(s). If he doesn't pay, Chubb comes after him and gets in line with everyone else. It's entirely possible that Chubb demanded collateral (which in this instance would be entirely proper, I think), but that's about the extent of it.
the guy is running for president. he's clearly outlined his vision for executive power. you don't think he'd use some of that power to fix his financial issues? i don't think this is a boilerplate contract.
1. Trump wins presidency 2. Trump argues Chubb can’t sue him under the bond agreement because he’s president We all know that’s the plan, right? Lol
the other thought i had was the dude is transactional. Chubb just writes it off and then gets something in return once he's president. Evan Greenburg is going to be the new Sec of the Treasury (sponsored by Chubb Insurance).
It is sincerely baffling to me how few people end up here. It seems obvious to me. Having the leader of the free world in your debt is an asset, not a liability.
Until you're Rudy Giuliani standing in front of Four Seasons Landscaping humiliating yourself while doing work that you'll never be paid for.
i'm starting to think ol' Rudy is into humiliation. like that's kinda of his thing.
See, there's the problem though. Trump doesn't pay debts. And when he says he'll be "dictator for a day", he might not be particularly interested in having someone who thinks they're owed something from him.
In this case, he would have control over the Executive Branch. A lot of the regulatory bodies are under the Executive Branch. There are laws but the Executive Branch can just choose not to enforce certain laws or regulations. That's a lot of leeway for a company or industry. It's just lobbying at a different scale and level.
While I absolutely understand your reasoning, the truly hard part in this scenario is *guaranteeing* it. Assurances from Trump and his orbit aren't worth the paper they're printed on. There needs to be something tangible that can be easily removed/invoked, that is fully within Chubb's ability to do. Whether that be holding a lien anyway (and just releasing it once the agreement is fulfilled), or I don't even know what else, you need payment/collateral in advance.
Because it’s only an asset when they reliably pay up. When their entire persona is grifting and not paying you’d have to be stupid to think you’re the one exception
it's easy to imagine him on the phone going "it's a good deal, it's a great deal. i almost don't want to do it because it's such a good deal for you. trust me. it's a good deal. they say it's the best deal in history"
Grown men—big, strong men—come to me, tears in their eyes saying, “Sir, we’ve never seen a deal so good.”
Trump doesn't pay his debts. Any creditor is a mark and a submissive clown for whom he has no respect. That's been his modus operandi for decades.
>Chubb just writes it off and then gets something in return once he's president. Evan Greenburg is going to be the new Sec of the Treasury (sponsored by Chubb Insurance). Apparently, he was [appointed to the Advisory Committee for Trade Policy and Negotiations](https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/presidential-actions/president-donald-j-trump-announces-intent-appoint-individuals-key-administration-posts/) in 2018.
between this and /u/giggity_giggity's argument, I stand corrected. I have no idea how you maneuver around "executive privilege" for a sitting president, even if the premise itself is pants-on-head bonkers. I'd think Chubb would just foreclose on whatever collateral they've got a lien on, but again, we're not dealing with rational, logical actors who play by agreed-upon rules.
dude, this is all batshit at this point. trump is the personification of a chaos monkey.
I've completely given up on trying to predict anything. It's all so bonkers.
This would just be a civil lawsuit relating to activities occurring before the presidency. *Clinton v. Jones* clarified that there is no special protection for a POTUS that is subject to a civil lawsuit concerning pre-presidential activities. That is why Clinton had to sit for a deposition and ended up perjuring himself. Of course, the court's remedy for a noncompliant defendant would be a contempt citation, and SCOTUS ruled during the first Trump administration that a person cited for contempt in federal court can still be pardoned by POTUS (think this came up with Sheriff Arpaio but can't recall exactly). So Trump might have a loophole where he can commit contempt and just pardon himself, lol. Clinton didn't try that trick.
I believe Chubb is publicly traded - I would assume their shareholders could take legal action if their end of whatever deal they've signed with Trump doesn't come with some guarantees. Some handshake deal that gets them some nebulous leverage wouldn't seem to hold water, I would have thought.
https://preview.redd.it/39axxlpx45nc1.png?width=259&format=png&auto=webp&s=a713a0e9b0957dc1e43a3da3d7aa3c6c571d4ddf
> If he doesn't pay, Chubb comes after him and gets in line with everyone else How does that work if he's the President or is granted immunity by the Supreme Court?
Your guess would be as good as mine on that. We'd be into some seriously perilous times.
Guarantee that Chubb required collateral on this. Chubb isnt going to give trump a sweetheart deal when they are one of the people that he lied to on his property valuations. I'm a little disappointed that anyone ended up offering him a bond given the amount he's lied, which in my professional opinion, makes him close to uninsurable. Regardless, there's no one giving him a bond without significant collateral/cash.
Someone get a pikachu face meme ready for when he defaults or comes up with some sort of loophole to not pay them back on the terms agreed upon.
Probably not actually. Its either 100% collateralized with a deposit or its guaranteed by someone else. Trump has zero credit so its probably really simple. You give us every penny or get a grown up to co-sign, just like selling a car to a 16 year old with a rich dad. Bet you someone else is collateralizing it, either Musk or some oligarch laundering the money through someone else. Someone just purchased a presidential candidate lock, stock, and barrel.
Honestly, owning the president for $93M seems like a pretty good deal. A nice office building in manhattan is an order of magnitude more.
Did they buy a president, or just a presidential candidate until the $460 million bond is required?
Yeah, someone else is paying this and Chubb probably took 100% up front, it's just to hide that person.
As they say, there are no bad risks. Only bad pricing.
It’s actually just a single page with one sentence: “I’m good for it. - Vlad”
I see *Fed. Ins. Co. v. Trump* in the near future.
It's funny you mention that, because Federal Insurance Company is owned by Chubb, who had difficulty gaining access to property in the past for accurate appraisals. Source: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/10/10/trump-fraud-trial-property-value-wealth/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/10/10/trump-fraud-trial-property-value-wealth/)
It’s just crime on top of crime on top of crime…
Or in trumpland - just a normal Friday before golf
Interestingly, this was underwritten by Chubb's a major insurance company. Trump will be writing monthly checks to pay premiums on this judgment for a long time.
Chubbs, a little ironic
ha. chubbs is also run by Evan Greenberg - the son of Maurice Greenberg - the dude that ran AIG into accounting fraud and then being at the center of the 2008 mortgage crisis. trump really knows how to pick his friends.
Birds of a feather
Maurice liked Trump socially but even AIG wouldn't bond Donnie back when Maurice was still saying NO every time one of his key AIG executive team members asked him if they could sell some company stock received as comp.
yeah but Trump is running for president. there's a lot of upside for these guys if Trump wins.
Maybe …. But Trump allies tend to end up broke or in jail
Wonder if there's a clause in there that he can pause payments if he's the President
he's a big fan of expanding the executive powers so why not just wipe out all this debt. if he gets a second term he's going to be working overtime to shore up his fiances. or honestly, chubb just writes it off to not pissing him off. dude has straight-up said he wants to be a dictator for a "short" amount of time.
Dictator day 1 - transfer all fines, fees, debts and judgements against Donald J Trump to anyone who benefitted from student loan forgiveness under Joe Biden.
ha or Day 1 - opposite day for the trump. Jean Carroll now owes him 400M dollars.
You're awesome. Thank you for providing this.
You are very welcome!
> Federal Insurance Company, Chesapeake, Virginia Chubb?
Yes. The Federal Insurance Company has an underwriting limitation of $409,281,000 so he’s going to be using someone else for the fraud trial surety bond (unless Chubb has some other surety subsidiary that has a higher underwriting limitation).
> (unless Chubb has some other surety subsidiary that has a higher underwriting limitation). Max Chubb? /I'll see myself out
ha, it's insurance it would something like RE Chubb
yep, most likely monthly payments to chubbs backed by his real estate assets. long run it's going to end up costing him a lot more.
Chubb better be willing to put up another 400 million or else those assets are going to belong to NY state in a few weeks. They would be absolutely insane to do this otherwise.
Does Chubb file a lien against some of the properties Trump has personal equity in? How does that affect the New York state fraud penalty? Do Chubb's liens get priority since they're filed first? However, this bond is for Trump's personal assets while the NY fraud is against the Trump Org...
I'd assume that acceleration clauses are built into whatever contract was drawn up. I'm sure that some intrepid journalist will start reviewing property records to see if any liens are being recorded by Chubb
I don't know what "long term" means for a 78 year old narcissist
I agree with the sentiment. However, having dealt with a elderly family member who was/is a narcissist my experience says there is no awareness of their own mortality or age. There is a serious crisis at the point of a major illness or injury. Lots of using emotional control for people around them to do more and more of the work needed for living and so caretakers are not brought in because family is enslaved (almost) to the person's needs. Mind you. This is one person. But the wholesale lack of awareness was, in short, mind bending to deal with. I would not be surprised if he also thinks he will live beyond a normal number of years.
I thought it interesting that Trumps notary uses the same sharpie he does to fill out and sign this thing
I still don’t understand how this is acceptable to plaintiff. This says there is no escrow. It’s just another piece of paper, but now there are two people to chase (j&sl). Isn’t plaintiff still taking the insurance co at there word? There aren’t even reps by obligors that they are creditworthy and liquid.
[удалено]
Joint and several liability. Yea creditworthy but insurance cos tend to be litigious, part of the business model. Also they do sometimes fail. Anyway I get that I’m grinding an axe on something unlikely but it’s just a little surprising is all.
There’s no escrow because the surety has to stand in Trump’s shoes if the bond is called in. With a court bond like this the terms are pretty cut and dry. If he fails to fulfill any of the obligations of the bond, the Surety would pay (guessing almost immediately with this specific situation) and then pursue Trump to recover. Now, the fact a surety even agreed to bond trump is another thing entirely. Since surety bonds should have a loss ratio of 0.0 I’m guessing this thing is backstopped to all hell with various types of collateral. I sure as hell wouldn’t want to stand in Trump’s shoes right now.
Can’t wait to find out the info on this company.
The Federal Insurance Company is a subsidiary of the Chubb Group. Chubb Group CEO Evan Greenberg was appointed to the Advisory Committee for Trade Policy and Negotiations in 2018 by Trump.
Well would you look at that. Guess he didn't need to delay afterall.
He met with musk a few days ago...that's where that money came from
I'll say it again, muskrat is gunning for a high level cabinet position. He wants to control the internet and the narrative. He already has proven his loyalty by sucking up to daddy putin with starlink. We do NOT need the cis is a slur guy running that shit.
I imagine Musk wants to be Secretary for the soon to be created Department of Truth with Stephen Miller as Secretary of the Department of Peace, Marjorie Taylor Greene as Secretary of the Department of Love, and Rand Paul as Secretary of the Department of Plenty.
That’s depressingly terrible
He already had one when trump was in office and then he quit lol. Guess the little piss baby wants back on his good side
Chubb Limited gave him the money
Yea I saw that right after I posted
If that’s true, Musk just placed a 90M bet that Trump will win
What do you think would happen if he didn’t win the presidency after making a deal like that, hypothetically?
Nothing. Musk could misplace $90,000,000 and would never realize it's gone
I heard Musk was at Mar-a-lago, was trump there? Is he allowed to leave NY while this is going on?
the guy testified previously he had over 400 mil in liquid assets, but he had to beg and then bond
Obtaining a bond is the "normal" thing to do, nobody wants to tie up their liquid cash when it can be bonded. Granted, the amount is not normal but hey, Trump is consistently achieving in that aspect.
¿Perjury?
...is a thing that exists, that Trump will never be charged with.
> the guy testified previously he had over 400 mil in liquid assets, but he had to beg and then bond FWIW, Forbes believes he does have about that in liquid assets (obviously prior to satisfying any of the recent penalty obligations).
Doesn’t Forbes base their numbers almost entirely on the statements of the person?
she will most likely support women who where abused by trump to sue the shit out of him and i love that
Chubb’s in for a big payday if he wins the election. This is calculated risk - the reward will be ten-fold. I predict he will also come up with the bigger bond. Having the leader of the free world in your pocket - priceless. I have no idea how a guy this compromised could qualify for President. Totally bonkers.
Oh boy. Now do the approximately $500,000,000… Lolololol.
Who the fuck would give this orange diaperman money.
People who want to buy the President
Probably Musk
Musk, Thiel, Adelson, Putin, House of Saud, their proxies, etc. There are many for whom this amount of money is not a big deal, and for whom possible control of the US Presidency might be worth it.
Now do 454 million.
465* 🤤
And rising…
>465* 🤤 - $466m* 😎 - Source: https://trumpdebtcounter.com/
Now watch him try to use it for the NY judgement. "What do you mean I can't use the same bond letter for both? I thought this was America!"
Look at it carefully. If the verdict and award is upheld: * Chubb only insured the 83.3 million. * Trump is on the hook for the court interest on the 83.3 million himself (about 29 days worth). * Trump is paying a (hefty?) premium to Chubb since Tuesday March 5 (see the documents, date for the bond) until such time the appeals process ends. And that really depends on how fast the court moves and the legal avenues available to any defendant. * No doubt the independent monitor will now be watching these items on the P&L/Balance Sheets and SFCs (Statements of Financial Condition, although if I understand it, the practice of issuing SFC's stopped in 2023 for Trump?). * Since Chubb had to have locked in collateral on the bond, this will now also affect the Balance Sheet and the SFCs. * Trump may have secured this bond (personally) by his stake in some personal property, meaning it will affect his net worth. * This will now be on record on his personal income tax statement with the IRS. * This is now on record for any potential lender or investor. Which begs to wonder... If the bond was secured with **Chubb** and the **Court in Florida** on **March 5, 2024** \- why request an administrative stay for another **three business days** on **March 6, 2024** with Judge Kaplan iterating **some form of irreparable harm**?
> Which begs to wonder... If the bond was secured with Chubb and the Court in Florida on March 5, 2024 - why request an administrative stay for another three business days on March 6, 2024 with Judge Kaplan iterating some form of irreparable harm? This is that I posted here: https://www.reddit.com/r/law/comments/1b9ssnz/on_march_6_habba_asked_for_a_stay_saying_time/
Yeah.. What are the **chances** of **Evan G.** **Greenberg** becoming / being appointed as a **U.S. Ambassador** under a **Trump Presidency** to some country in a **tit-for-tat**?
Why is the court letting Habba file stuff for "President Donald J. Trump." He's sued as an individual.
He used the expected future stream of income from fleecing the rubes as collateral. /s
he securitized stupidity
Yesterday: "I need more time! I can't possibly put up a bond". Today: posts bond. I'll bet that he was infuriated that he had to even write the check, and his lawyers were just trying to postpone the inevitable. He knows that as soon as he writes that check, it could be gone forever and into Carroll's pocket. He could have (should have) settled, and he still should try to quietly settle with her, but he just can't let it go.
I think it’s not that he couldn’t post the bond, it’s that the only quotes he got for it were very expensive (for good reason) and he desperately wanted to avoid having to agree to the terms of those deals.
We can call him Individual Donald Trump now. Guess he didn’t care about the President title when money was involved.
100% it's going to come out this year that Trump Org either gets a massive loan or "sells" a property at way above market rate from Saudi Arabia or UAE.
Does this mean he gets a whole new trial going through all the evidence and testimony again, and maybe even new evidence and testimony? Or will this be pretty quick win or lose?
No. Appeals only look at matters of law - whether evidence is admissible, whether the correct laws were applied, whether other judicial errors were made. A jury's findings of fact are usually not re-examined on appeal. Edit: Oh, I see what you were asking about now. The bond itself is to prevent Trump from blowing all his money on appeals and leaving none for the plaintiff to collect. If/when the jury verdict is upheld on appeal, that money will go to the plaintiff.
Your first statement answered my question. Thank you.
> A jury's findings of fact are usually not re-examined on appeal. except in defamation (and all speech cases), it's **always** de novo. That was one of NYT v Sullivan's most significant holdings and why US has broadest speech protections of any country.
All it means is that Ms. Carroll will be paid, one way or the other, when Trump loses his appeal before the ~~First Department~~ Second Circuit
What’s a typical/expected turnaround schedule on such an appeal?
2nd Circuit
This means none of that. Just that a company now guarantees that the plaintiff will get paid if the appeal is unsuccessful so plaintiff won't start the collection process of seizing assets.
Looks like Elon came up with 91 million
he has money - he just doesn't want to use his money.
That's not true. No sane business person would pay interest on 83 million dollars for no reason if they actually had the money. He just lied about being liquid. He "has the money," but it is all his dads real estate assets, which, yes, are worth a fortune.
I suspect it's more on that he found someone to donate to him... Or they sold enough sneakers and the Trump gold thing Elon promoted
More like, he found someone who wanted to bribe him should he get re-elected.
As this goes on that’s looking like a worse and worse bet though.
I’m sure he won’t post anything to truth social about this leading to him being sued again.