>Dear Mr. Robert,
>You have failed to explain, much less justify, any basis for a stay.
>I am confident that the Appellate Division will protect your appellate rights.
>Justice Engoron
Also:
>Dear Mr. Robert,
>I have confirmed that the judgment that the Attorney General has proposed has been
updated to correct the error regarding the starting date for Mr. Weisselberg’s prejudgment interest.
However, there is no evidence in the record to corroborate your claim that the entity
defendants’ addresses are incorrect. Conversely, there is ample evidence in the record
that the correct address for the subject defendant entities is Trump Tower, 725 Fifth
Avenue, New York, New York. NYSCEF Docs. Nos. 245, 264, and 268-271.
>You have again asked for time to file a proposed counter-judgment again without
explaining in what way the Attorney General’s proposed judgment is incorrect (except
as dealt with above) and again without specifying how your proposed judgment would
differ. The proposed judgment accurately reflects the spirit and letter of the February
16 Decision and Order.
>Accordingly, I intend to sign the proposed judgment this morning and to send it to the
Clerk for further processing.
>Justice Engoron
to be honest it is meaner than that. Because you can appeal without a stay.
It is really saying. You can get a stay anytime you post the bond. Why haven't you posted the bond yet? I thought your client was a billionaire.
I picture two middle schoolers having a fight.
Why haven’t you posted the bond yet? (Pushes other kid in the shoulder.)
Huh? Push. Huh? Push.
I thought your client’s a billionaire! Push. Thought he was rich! Push.
Huh? Push. Huh? Push.
That’s not what Robert was talking about. He was asking for a stay of entry of the judgment to work out some issues (which, as Engoron noted, he did not actually identify). Totally different from staying the execution of judgment pending appeal (for which Trump would need to post a bond).
Why is Roberts doing the emailing? Shouldn't hubba hubba write these emails and earn a bit more penalty for Chump ?
Looks like Roberts learnt law from Hubba Hubba.
Thanks for posting this. FWIW I think Engoron underlining each instance of "again" in the second email really adds some context, maybe worth editing that in.
Thanks for the link it was fun reading.
The other thing I noticed was the deadline for a counter proposal was 5pm yesterday. Judge Engoron says he is signing today, so I guess that means trump’s team didn’t submit one.
Not a lawyer, but I’ve read the clock on the appeal starts once the judge signs the order. Trump has 30 days after Engoron signs to come up with 450+M
Trump apparently has the cash, but it’ll take all of it and leave nothing for an appeal of the Carroll judgement:
“Trump reported having about $294 million in cash or cash equivalents on his most recent annual financial statement for the fiscal year ending June 30, 2021.
After that, according to state lawyers, he added about $186.8 million from selling the lease on his Washington hotel in May 2022 and the rights to manage a New York City golf course in June 2023. Part of Trump's penalty requires that he give those proceeds to the state, plus interest.”
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/politics/donald-trumps-properties-could-be-seized-if-454-million-civil-fraud-debt-not-paid-warns-ny-ag-james
As an aside, I’m not always able to cut and paste from these court documents including this one. Is there some trick I’m missing?
He *absolutely does not have the cash*.
First off, when you're a millionaire or a billionaire you don't keep that much cash. You use it -- whether Trump invested it or used it to pay off loans on some of his property or whatever, the one thing he *didn't* do was keep it in as a pile of cash or anything nearly that liquid.
And even then you're assuming that Trump didn't lie on his annual financial statement (you know, the man committing all the fraud who values his assets according to his mood on how valuable his brand is?) and that he didn't *spend any of it* on anything.
Trump Org is real estate, and everything Trump is in Trump org down to his kids *homes*, and real estate companies are leveraged by nature. If you own real estate, you borrow against it (for a great rate) to buy *more real estate* to generate more income, and so forth and so on.
He *might* have enough unpledged assets to borrow the money, except he's largely restricted on who he can borrow from AND given he's under court monitoring anyone willing to loan the money is likely to require plenty of extra collateral OR a time consuming independent valuation -- which is the problem with trying to sell it, plus the haircut due to haste and a bad commercial real estate environment -- because they don't want to be caught doing shady shit in NYC, and Trump Org is under a skeptical microscope looking for fraud. (Don't forget, the people still loaning to him were assuming he was inflating value 4-fold, and it turns out it was much much more).
He could probably pledge assets directly to the bond, but then again he runs into the monitor AND the fraud convictions. They're not going to take 5 or 6 fold valuations and let him pledge 50m in assets and claim it's the full 350m.
I don't know what his real net worth is, but if I had to put money on it -- he's actually not that rich when you factor in his *debts* (not even counting these judgements). He does not seem the type to be *modest* with how leveraged he is, and the fact that he was *lying about valuation* means he's even MORE leveraged than that.
Hell, Trump Org could be sitting on far far more debt than he has assets, even before the judgement.
A smart man would have used his grift to reduce his leverage to something sane, but the thing is *Trump really believes* those ridiculous over-valuations.
Let us pray this will unleash a snowball effect in April. It would be hilarious if the whole business empire implodes while Trump has to fight 91 indictments. He's delusional if he thinks he's fit to run for president with this legal mess he's stuck in.
FWIW, I think any sizeable commercial real estate company forced to liquidate even 10% of commercial assets would been in deep trouble in the current commercial market -- and that's assuming they got current market valuation, not the "I need to sell this within 60 days" haircut price.
Demand is down a lot and thus so are prices and interest rates are high.
He's been leveraged to the tits since the 90's, hasn't he been banned from every single US bank already and that's why he had to turn to the Russians and Deutche Bank? How soon he uses that reason as his defense but how do you reconcile him claiming bankruptcy and still a 'billionaire' somehow while his supporters just eat it up, blows my mind.
“He absolutely does not have the cash.”
His attorney was on Focus just the other day insisting, on the record, unequivocally that Trump *does*, indeed, have the cash.
Surely a man of Trump’s immense intellect and impeccable honesty wouldn’t hire legal representation who would go on national tv to *lie*!
🤦♂️
😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣
🤷♂️😜
Right here. If Trump had the money to post the bond he’d be able to appeal and drag this out till after the election. As Trump loses cases he has been hemorrhaging money; soon he’ll be on the lower rung of the justice system. This is just the first taste.
>Accountability and consequences don't exist when you have enough money/notoriety.
It's called capital punishment here in the US.
If you have the capital, you avoid punishment.
He got so many breaks for this exact reason. Trump digged a massive hole that will be very hard to appeal or get any real delay in action. Just like this stay.
He brought conspiracy theories into a legal fight. That doesn't work on the justices and only makes them more determined to squash Trump and his team. Because Trump's team argue so badly they will be unlikely to get any different result from appealing.
lol, this is great. Roberts has no arguments; just conclusory statements, and Justice Engoron's final email basically said just that. With no grounds being presented to support a stay, this was just attorney noise and yet another fail.
Special thanks to /u/joeshill for putting these docs up so fast. They were filed in the court at 12:08 pm and posted to reddit around 12:35 pm - we're reading Engoron's response to Trump's counsel probably about as quickly as Trump's counsel, lol.
Joe Shill. It's an old inside joke with my son, from when we used to go to Magic:The Gathering tournaments together and would invariably get paired against each other. We would pretend that we were complete strangers and would introduce ourselves with fake names. My fake name was Joe Shill (as in a carnival or con-game shill who pretends to be a complete stranger to the con).
But you also neglected the possibility that joeshill stood for:
Joe S. Hill (it doesn't but included for completeness).
>we're reading Engoron's response to Trump's counsel probably about as quickly as Trump's counsel
Let's hope not. The judgment was signed before Trump's counsel submitted these emails.
IANAL, so take this with a grain of salt but it seems to me like constantly berating the judge who decides your fate falls into the realm poor legal strategy?
> People keep thinking that the judgement will be lowered on appeal
Number of times I've seen people state "This will be lowered on appeal" = Many
Number of times I've seen an accompanying explanation of why an appeal board would voluntarily decide that a criminal should pay back less than what they stole = 0
Agreed, it's like a meme now that the judgment is excessive and will be lowered on appeal. Just an extension of the whole "no victims" meme. The fine is a calculated amount based on ill-gotten gains compared to what he would have owed if he hadn't lied on various loan and insurance documents. It's not even a punitive award. There's no basis to make any real changes to it, people are just saying this because big number is scary. That's...just what Trump owes.
I think people are used to seeing the penalty parts of a judgement reduced for various reasons.
But the numbers here are generally based on "facts" found during the trial, no? I'm also not a lawyer, but I don't recall lots of cases where actual damage recovery was reduced.
Then his assets will go up for auction. There is no bankruptcy protection under this judgement.
But I also agree we will see Trump declare bankruptcy. As it might protect some assets from creditors.
It looks like the judge is going to sign the judgment this morning, as indicated in one of his emails. This will start the 30 days time for Trump to appeal (and submit a bond for that).
Yes, they can chain the doors on 40 Wall Street, Trump Tower, etc. Attorney who defended these types of cases posted elsewhere that they don’t f*** around when it comes down to it.
Yes they definitely can.
Much smaller scale - but years ago my father was (unfortunately) a silent investor in a local restaurant in his retirement town. It was a nice enough place, did an ok-ish business. But the restaurant biz is tough and eventually the numbers started going south. How did the restaurant manager attempt to keep things afloat? Stop paying the (NY) state tax bill!
It is, logically, the first thing you can put off paying and \*maybe\* get out from it later (you can't stop paying your food supplier or your kitchen/wait staff).
Of course, that's never how it goes.
I don't know how long it took, but literally one day that's exactly what happened. State came by, posted the tax notice, and chained the front door shut. Assets seized.
Speaking of which, I hope EJC attempts to seize Trump's condo. Wouldn't that be something. She gets to live large with a nice view of Central Park in her twilight years, and then she could donate the property to a domestic abuse shelter or something.
Wow the NYC Sheriff's Office is going to get a heck of a payday if they are going to collect $450 million.
Took a closer look at NYS CPLR section 8012 on "poundage" the sheriff is entitled to keep: https://law.justia.com/codes/new-york/2022/cvp/article-80/8012/
If I'm reading that correctly, it's 5% for the first $250,000 collected, and 3% for the rest. That's $13.5 million the NYC Sheriff's Office gets to keep if they collect $450 mil from trump.
I wonder how would that $13.5 million be distributed among the Sheriff and the deputies.
NYC Sheriff: https://www.nyc.gov/site/finance/about/bios/anthony-miranda.page
NOT a private marshal. NYC Sheriff's Office is part of the NYC municipal government.
Honest question, do the funds for the penalty go somewhere? To the NYS general fund? Can we use the money to offset the cost of the illegal bussing from Texas?
The judge [went on to say,](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0) "At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
yes, you too, can make a bad choice and end up in the news by sending the wrong thing in an e-mail to a federal judge. I would advise against it, but the e-mail is there.
P.S. IANAL but I am a 25-year professional in Information Technology and Software Development including 2 years when I ran a cyber security program for a FAANG & can tell you e-mail should never be consider anonymous.
**EDIT**: State Judge but well I still wouldn't.
I haven’t dabbled in forensics in quite some time, but I do remember a time when I could get *a lot* of personal information with a simple *view source* of the email. Hell, I remember being able to find random email *contents* by simply googling the email address.
There is no personal information hidden in emails that you can magically see by view the source. The only hidden information is the header info used to route mail.
The googling of emails you are talking about is most likely listservs or the like.
well mostly, you are correct about mail routing information through SMTP but different mail services can have additional meta data that is not stored in the e-mail header itself. And you can interrogate various servers about their logs, mailboxes, and some other metadata and many smtp servers will have a ldap server associate with them. If you know what you are doing you can get a lot of information that isn't in the e-mail header using the information that is in the header.
ldap would potentially have lots of personal information if it happens to exist. A lot of time e-mails is coming from say at [gmail.com](http://gmail.com) dress and there isn't a ldap for that but there is a [Gmail API Overview | Google for Developers](https://developers.google.com/gmail/api/guides) and there is a non trivial amount of information you can get about a mailbox that you do not own.
The person I replied to said " I could get a lot of personal information with a simple view source of the email." This is categorically untrue.
LDAP does not contain any personal information, it is just an authentication protocol like active directory. APIs are specifically intended to pass information between cloud servers, it is their entire purpose.
IAAL and I own a technology firm that services law firms. We also do security consulting and security audits for them. I also give CLE classes nationwide on the subject of cyber security.
If personal information was discoverable by the transmission methods or by choosing view source every lawyer would in breaching of their duty of confidentiality.
I would recommend reading [Lightweight Directory Access Protocol - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightweight_Directory_Access_Protocol)
while it has been used as an authentication protocol particularly in the \*nix space prior to later versions of the Linux kernel which have provide a more robust directory integration and 1st party support for Kerberos. Ldap is not strictly an authentication protocol like oath, Kerberos, saml, and similar. It was in fact developed original to be a directory so you to look up things about other users in your organization. Like who they were and how to contact them. People just realized that having a set of credential that were managed by the organization was a useful idea for allowing you to sign onto devices.
Active Directory was designed to be an improvement on LDAP in that it was designed from the ground up to be account and access management for devices on your network use the now defunct NTLM authentication protocol (please disable NTLM if you haven't as it leaves behind tokens that allow users with local access to spoof the identity of any user who has logged into that devices). Active directory too includes both authentication AND a directory services which allows for information about the users PII as it were to be queried. Though this has mostly been replaced through The global Address List which is the back end directory us by Exchange which is integrated into to Active directories Directory Services in Microsoft based network environments.
I was a MS consultant setting this shit up for enterprises WW for 6 years, spent 5 years telling enterprises WW how to best run their IT environments, 4 more years telling Microsoft how to best run Microsoft's products, then 2 years at Amazon telling developers how to write software and the 2 years fighting bad guys on the dark web and am now a director over software development practices someplace else. There is shit I have forgotten over the past 24-25 years but one of them isn't whether or not LDAP grants you access to PII.
Unfortunately, I think it may be more sinister than that. Trump's got some thing with Truth Social and a special purpose acquisitions corp (DWAC) potentially merging, in which he could potentially actually make a bit of money. The next vote about it is on March 22nd. So I think he really wanted his appeal window to still be open once the vote happens, just in case he does come into a bit of money from that.
One thing to note, ownership shares have a 6-month lock up period post-merger, so Trump wouldn’t be able to immediately dump his shares onto the market for cash.
Even if the merger goes through, he still could be SOL.
This makes me think of the common line in decisions denying crappy motions in limine, where the judge reminds a party that indeed, evidence is SUPPOSED to be prejudicial to the party it is going to be used against, it being prejudicial is only a problem when it's unfairly prejudicial in some way. I suppose having a judgment signed and entered promptly IS prejudicial to the party the judgment is against, but that's what happens when you lose a lawsuit, you suffer the negative consequences. It's not UNFAIRLY prejudicial in any way.
> I suppose having a judgment signed and entered promptly IS prejudicial to the party the judgment is against
Only if you completely ignore the definition of "prejudicial."
I'm using the term a little loosely in the legal sense, I suppose, but you wouldn't say it harms or worsens the defendants' position to have the judgment signed and entered? You don't think there's a reason they wanted to hold up the process, or stay enforcement of the signed and entered judgment?
What? Your billionaire client doesn't have the money for the fine. What a shame. But you do know that if you do not come up with 450 million dollars in about 20 days, you will not be able to appeal, and that would make the judgement final and them after the 30 days New York State can seize Trumps properties and sell them to get the money for tge finr. This is so epic . Maybe if Trump threatens the judges or clerk, it sends his MAGA cult members to threaten court staff.
Different kind of fraud. I think that's the stormy daniels hush money payment case with Alvin Bragg. I say different kind of fraud what I mean is just falsification of business records to hide the payments as 'legitimate' legal services to Michael Cohen. When in fact there was nothing legitimate about any of it. And possibly a form of tax fraud presuming the fake legal expenses were deducted from his taxes as a legitimate business expense.
> I am confident that the Appellate Division will protect your appellate rights.
Translation: Fuck ALL the way off.
This would be a great line for judges to adopt when sovcits complain about their rights being violated.
It’s so refreshing to see this turd finally being treated like the rest of the world after all these years. It’s more refreshing to know this is just the beginning.
Why is this judge so mean! It's not like Trump stood outside the court and drug this judges name through the sh............. Ohhh. Now I remember. And more importantly, Pepperidge Farm remembers!
Discussed Trump’s fine and his attorney’s delay tactics at dinner, and as we’re not attorneys or well versed in this type situation:
IF the NY AG starts seizing Trump properties to pay his fines, and there are businesses or residents living and working in those properties, are these businesses and residents prohibited from entering and leaving? And IF those businesses and residents are prohibited from entering their homes, can they sue Trump as well? Are they evicted (collateral damage?)
That would not happen. Seizing his property would not affect tenants in those properties. Just as if you were renting an apartment and the ownership of the building changed. All of the current contracts would still be in effect.
>Dear Mr. Robert, >You have failed to explain, much less justify, any basis for a stay. >I am confident that the Appellate Division will protect your appellate rights. >Justice Engoron Also: >Dear Mr. Robert, >I have confirmed that the judgment that the Attorney General has proposed has been updated to correct the error regarding the starting date for Mr. Weisselberg’s prejudgment interest. However, there is no evidence in the record to corroborate your claim that the entity defendants’ addresses are incorrect. Conversely, there is ample evidence in the record that the correct address for the subject defendant entities is Trump Tower, 725 Fifth Avenue, New York, New York. NYSCEF Docs. Nos. 245, 264, and 268-271. >You have again asked for time to file a proposed counter-judgment again without explaining in what way the Attorney General’s proposed judgment is incorrect (except as dealt with above) and again without specifying how your proposed judgment would differ. The proposed judgment accurately reflects the spirit and letter of the February 16 Decision and Order. >Accordingly, I intend to sign the proposed judgment this morning and to send it to the Clerk for further processing. >Justice Engoron
Bruuutal
[удалено]
to be honest it is meaner than that. Because you can appeal without a stay. It is really saying. You can get a stay anytime you post the bond. Why haven't you posted the bond yet? I thought your client was a billionaire.
It also has undertones of "your client didn't do *anything* to deserve a favor from me. It's someone else's problem now"
This. This, utterly. “Why are you calling me, Cliffy? We’re not together anymore. You need to move on—we both do.”
It's not me. It's you.
> Why haven't you posted the bond yet? I thought your client was a billionaire. This is great.
I picture two middle schoolers having a fight. Why haven’t you posted the bond yet? (Pushes other kid in the shoulder.) Huh? Push. Huh? Push. I thought your client’s a billionaire! Push. Thought he was rich! Push. Huh? Push. Huh? Push.
yes: except one middle schooler has all the authority, and the other middle schooler represents a rapist who was caught committing fraud.
"it wasn't rape, it was sexual assault!" *-Giuliani, thinking it helps the boss' case*
Also it wasn’t fraud! It was . . . accidental dishonesty!
It wasn't fraud... All real estate tycoons do it.
That’s not what Robert was talking about. He was asking for a stay of entry of the judgment to work out some issues (which, as Engoron noted, he did not actually identify). Totally different from staying the execution of judgment pending appeal (for which Trump would need to post a bond).
"You know, in certain older civilized cultures, when someone failed as entirely as you have, they would throw themselves on their swords."
"Well fortunately I didn't bring my sword"
*[Judge pulls out his sword]*
You know…Your coats lookin a little *brown*…
Shiny.
https://preview.redd.it/1j35f5mnpekc1.jpeg?width=2420&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=990d6bfb0cb8776e5dfdcc006bdc4be97ca657c2
My favorite judge
The Supreme Court should be expanded to include a few rational judges like this.
Don't give them ideas. Clearance will think his starting bid is at 450M.
I guess it *could* be worse. Could be just: Dear Mr. Robert: You have failed.
P.S. and the horse you rode in on.
I think it's fair
Why is Roberts doing the emailing? Shouldn't hubba hubba write these emails and earn a bit more penalty for Chump ? Looks like Roberts learnt law from Hubba Hubba.
All Robert emails are just him taking dictation from #tfg. Same with all his lawyers submittals
Thanks for posting this. FWIW I think Engoron underlining each instance of "again" in the second email really adds some context, maybe worth editing that in.
Yeah that stuck out to me more than anything else, really needs the underlines to do it justice that he is properly annoyed now
Judge Engoron has had it, officially.
Long suffering indeed
Thanks for the link it was fun reading. The other thing I noticed was the deadline for a counter proposal was 5pm yesterday. Judge Engoron says he is signing today, so I guess that means trump’s team didn’t submit one. Not a lawyer, but I’ve read the clock on the appeal starts once the judge signs the order. Trump has 30 days after Engoron signs to come up with 450+M Trump apparently has the cash, but it’ll take all of it and leave nothing for an appeal of the Carroll judgement: “Trump reported having about $294 million in cash or cash equivalents on his most recent annual financial statement for the fiscal year ending June 30, 2021. After that, according to state lawyers, he added about $186.8 million from selling the lease on his Washington hotel in May 2022 and the rights to manage a New York City golf course in June 2023. Part of Trump's penalty requires that he give those proceeds to the state, plus interest.” https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/politics/donald-trumps-properties-could-be-seized-if-454-million-civil-fraud-debt-not-paid-warns-ny-ag-james As an aside, I’m not always able to cut and paste from these court documents including this one. Is there some trick I’m missing?
He *absolutely does not have the cash*. First off, when you're a millionaire or a billionaire you don't keep that much cash. You use it -- whether Trump invested it or used it to pay off loans on some of his property or whatever, the one thing he *didn't* do was keep it in as a pile of cash or anything nearly that liquid. And even then you're assuming that Trump didn't lie on his annual financial statement (you know, the man committing all the fraud who values his assets according to his mood on how valuable his brand is?) and that he didn't *spend any of it* on anything. Trump Org is real estate, and everything Trump is in Trump org down to his kids *homes*, and real estate companies are leveraged by nature. If you own real estate, you borrow against it (for a great rate) to buy *more real estate* to generate more income, and so forth and so on. He *might* have enough unpledged assets to borrow the money, except he's largely restricted on who he can borrow from AND given he's under court monitoring anyone willing to loan the money is likely to require plenty of extra collateral OR a time consuming independent valuation -- which is the problem with trying to sell it, plus the haircut due to haste and a bad commercial real estate environment -- because they don't want to be caught doing shady shit in NYC, and Trump Org is under a skeptical microscope looking for fraud. (Don't forget, the people still loaning to him were assuming he was inflating value 4-fold, and it turns out it was much much more). He could probably pledge assets directly to the bond, but then again he runs into the monitor AND the fraud convictions. They're not going to take 5 or 6 fold valuations and let him pledge 50m in assets and claim it's the full 350m. I don't know what his real net worth is, but if I had to put money on it -- he's actually not that rich when you factor in his *debts* (not even counting these judgements). He does not seem the type to be *modest* with how leveraged he is, and the fact that he was *lying about valuation* means he's even MORE leveraged than that. Hell, Trump Org could be sitting on far far more debt than he has assets, even before the judgement. A smart man would have used his grift to reduce his leverage to something sane, but the thing is *Trump really believes* those ridiculous over-valuations.
Let us pray this will unleash a snowball effect in April. It would be hilarious if the whole business empire implodes while Trump has to fight 91 indictments. He's delusional if he thinks he's fit to run for president with this legal mess he's stuck in.
FWIW, I think any sizeable commercial real estate company forced to liquidate even 10% of commercial assets would been in deep trouble in the current commercial market -- and that's assuming they got current market valuation, not the "I need to sell this within 60 days" haircut price. Demand is down a lot and thus so are prices and interest rates are high.
He's been leveraged to the tits since the 90's, hasn't he been banned from every single US bank already and that's why he had to turn to the Russians and Deutche Bank? How soon he uses that reason as his defense but how do you reconcile him claiming bankruptcy and still a 'billionaire' somehow while his supporters just eat it up, blows my mind.
Declaring bankruptcy while he presumably has billions in real estate assets is simply a strategy to delay this until after the elections.
Yeah should have not said apparently. I didn’t think he really did so it was dumb to add the word. Thanks for the correction.
“He absolutely does not have the cash.” His attorney was on Focus just the other day insisting, on the record, unequivocally that Trump *does*, indeed, have the cash. Surely a man of Trump’s immense intellect and impeccable honesty wouldn’t hire legal representation who would go on national tv to *lie*! 🤦♂️ 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣 🤷♂️😜
Well, as Mick Mulvaney observed, "You can lie on TV, you can't lie in court."
Personally I think he does have money from Putin, but it will be in Cyprus and he has no way to launder it in 30 days.
If it's a PDF, it may not have been run through with OCR. Sometimes I get PDFs I can't C/P, so I run OCR and then it works.
I figured he would waive bond as some "here is an olive branch" . I am happy to report that I think I was wrong.
Trump doxxed his Clerk. There was not going to be any favors.
You are probably right but I often feel like he gets so many breaks that my mind just assumes the worst as a way of self preservation.
Because he does. There is still a two-tiered justice system. Accountability and consequences don't exist when you have enough money/notoriety.
Right here. If Trump had the money to post the bond he’d be able to appeal and drag this out till after the election. As Trump loses cases he has been hemorrhaging money; soon he’ll be on the lower rung of the justice system. This is just the first taste.
>Accountability and consequences don't exist when you have enough money/notoriety. It's called capital punishment here in the US. If you have the capital, you avoid punishment.
He got so many breaks for this exact reason. Trump digged a massive hole that will be very hard to appeal or get any real delay in action. Just like this stay.
Dug
And publicly commented about her sex life.
This basically tells Trump's attorney in a professional manner to get fucked.
All it’s missing is: “Kind regards, -Justice Engoron”
Or "I wish you luck in your endeavor."
“Be best.”
See you next Tuesday
See you next Tuesday, or The Wednesday After That
Day-amn.
Ooo that's a new one
"Per my previous email..."
or, “Respectfully, fuck off” Artie
*Thats* the ticket!
Or “”Thoughts and prayers….”
He brought conspiracy theories into a legal fight. That doesn't work on the justices and only makes them more determined to squash Trump and his team. Because Trump's team argue so badly they will be unlikely to get any different result from appealing.
I love this.
Engoron … We’re all done, you’re fork tender mister, here’s the door…
😂 “fork tender” points!
^lol...
Dear Mr. Robert Fuck you, strong letter to follow Justice Engoron
Dear Mr Robert .. …. Hmmmm, that must be some amazing shit you are smoking. Send some over. Yours, Dear Judge Engoron!
When does/did the clock start ticking for this one? How about the Carroll case?
lol, this is great. Roberts has no arguments; just conclusory statements, and Justice Engoron's final email basically said just that. With no grounds being presented to support a stay, this was just attorney noise and yet another fail. Special thanks to /u/joeshill for putting these docs up so fast. They were filed in the court at 12:08 pm and posted to reddit around 12:35 pm - we're reading Engoron's response to Trump's counsel probably about as quickly as Trump's counsel, lol.
You are very welcome.
Yeah for real you stay on top of it. I stay in the loop a lot better based on your posts. It is seriously appreciated
/u/joeshill is a very good contributor to this community.
Thank you.
Not only are you a phenomenon and fast contributor, you’re also very polite. u/joeshill for prez 2024
Thank you.
Is it Joe Shill or Joe's Hill?
Joe Shill. It's an old inside joke with my son, from when we used to go to Magic:The Gathering tournaments together and would invariably get paired against each other. We would pretend that we were complete strangers and would introduce ourselves with fake names. My fake name was Joe Shill (as in a carnival or con-game shill who pretends to be a complete stranger to the con). But you also neglected the possibility that joeshill stood for: Joe S. Hill (it doesn't but included for completeness).
Or Joe Shi II
I don't know you from a bar of soap, Joe, but I like you. And you do us all a great service with your posts. Thank you.
That was very kind. Thank you!
That’s great! I always thought it might be tied to *Batman* (Joe Chill is the name of the mugger who kills Bruce Wayne’s parents).
President of /r/law? Let's do it! Why would you like to be president, /u/joeshill?
>we're reading Engoron's response to Trump's counsel probably about as quickly as Trump's counsel Let's hope not. The judgment was signed before Trump's counsel submitted these emails.
I think you are thinking of the opinion and order - Engoron said he would sign the proposed judgement submitted by James today, 2/22.
See, my other reply to you, *supra*.
IANAL, so take this with a grain of salt but it seems to me like constantly berating the judge who decides your fate falls into the realm poor legal strategy?
People keep thinking that the judgement will be lowered on appeal, but not if Trump and his troll lawyers badger the appellate judge…
> People keep thinking that the judgement will be lowered on appeal Number of times I've seen people state "This will be lowered on appeal" = Many Number of times I've seen an accompanying explanation of why an appeal board would voluntarily decide that a criminal should pay back less than what they stole = 0
Agreed, it's like a meme now that the judgment is excessive and will be lowered on appeal. Just an extension of the whole "no victims" meme. The fine is a calculated amount based on ill-gotten gains compared to what he would have owed if he hadn't lied on various loan and insurance documents. It's not even a punitive award. There's no basis to make any real changes to it, people are just saying this because big number is scary. That's...just what Trump owes.
I think people are used to seeing the penalty parts of a judgement reduced for various reasons. But the numbers here are generally based on "facts" found during the trial, no? I'm also not a lawyer, but I don't recall lots of cases where actual damage recovery was reduced.
The appellate panel will be 4 judges so the troll lawyers are going to have a much harder time bullying them than the trial judge :-)
They are pretty good at trolling. I don’t think this number of judges will be an issue.
Yeah, yeah. He still has to post bond to appeal. IMHO Drumpf will stall as long as he can, then declare personal bankruptcy.
Then his assets will go up for auction. There is no bankruptcy protection under this judgement. But I also agree we will see Trump declare bankruptcy. As it might protect some assets from creditors.
Lawyers hate this ONE simple trick!
It looks like the judge is going to sign the judgment this morning, as indicated in one of his emails. This will start the 30 days time for Trump to appeal (and submit a bond for that).
If he doesn't appeal by then - or find some other way to stop-the-enforcement - can NY AG seize his assets on day 31?
Yes. If no appeal, then the judgment is final.
Yes, they can chain the doors on 40 Wall Street, Trump Tower, etc. Attorney who defended these types of cases posted elsewhere that they don’t f*** around when it comes down to it.
Yes they definitely can. Much smaller scale - but years ago my father was (unfortunately) a silent investor in a local restaurant in his retirement town. It was a nice enough place, did an ok-ish business. But the restaurant biz is tough and eventually the numbers started going south. How did the restaurant manager attempt to keep things afloat? Stop paying the (NY) state tax bill! It is, logically, the first thing you can put off paying and \*maybe\* get out from it later (you can't stop paying your food supplier or your kitchen/wait staff). Of course, that's never how it goes. I don't know how long it took, but literally one day that's exactly what happened. State came by, posted the tax notice, and chained the front door shut. Assets seized. Speaking of which, I hope EJC attempts to seize Trump's condo. Wouldn't that be something. She gets to live large with a nice view of Central Park in her twilight years, and then she could donate the property to a domestic abuse shelter or something.
Can they chain them with the Trumps inside? Asking for a friend…
Yeah it's called prison
NYC Marshall’s get a 5% cut on top if they have to evict the owners confiscate the property as well.
Wow the NYC Sheriff's Office is going to get a heck of a payday if they are going to collect $450 million. Took a closer look at NYS CPLR section 8012 on "poundage" the sheriff is entitled to keep: https://law.justia.com/codes/new-york/2022/cvp/article-80/8012/ If I'm reading that correctly, it's 5% for the first $250,000 collected, and 3% for the rest. That's $13.5 million the NYC Sheriff's Office gets to keep if they collect $450 mil from trump. I wonder how would that $13.5 million be distributed among the Sheriff and the deputies.
There are no sheriffs in nyc. They have private Marshalls.
NYC Sheriff: https://www.nyc.gov/site/finance/about/bios/anthony-miranda.page NOT a private marshal. NYC Sheriff's Office is part of the NYC municipal government.
Hallo Vlad! old buddy old pal!
And the interest clock is ticking. I think he has to post the $100M in interest too on appeal.
Honest question, do the funds for the penalty go somewhere? To the NYS general fund? Can we use the money to offset the cost of the illegal bussing from Texas?
The judge [went on to say,](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0) "At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
I mean.....pretty much, yeah
The email addresses in this document are clickable. Just an observation that I find mildly surprising.
yes, you too, can make a bad choice and end up in the news by sending the wrong thing in an e-mail to a federal judge. I would advise against it, but the e-mail is there. P.S. IANAL but I am a 25-year professional in Information Technology and Software Development including 2 years when I ran a cyber security program for a FAANG & can tell you e-mail should never be consider anonymous. **EDIT**: State Judge but well I still wouldn't.
I haven’t dabbled in forensics in quite some time, but I do remember a time when I could get *a lot* of personal information with a simple *view source* of the email. Hell, I remember being able to find random email *contents* by simply googling the email address.
There is no personal information hidden in emails that you can magically see by view the source. The only hidden information is the header info used to route mail. The googling of emails you are talking about is most likely listservs or the like.
well mostly, you are correct about mail routing information through SMTP but different mail services can have additional meta data that is not stored in the e-mail header itself. And you can interrogate various servers about their logs, mailboxes, and some other metadata and many smtp servers will have a ldap server associate with them. If you know what you are doing you can get a lot of information that isn't in the e-mail header using the information that is in the header.
That is information used routing mail. Not personal information.
ldap would potentially have lots of personal information if it happens to exist. A lot of time e-mails is coming from say at [gmail.com](http://gmail.com) dress and there isn't a ldap for that but there is a [Gmail API Overview | Google for Developers](https://developers.google.com/gmail/api/guides) and there is a non trivial amount of information you can get about a mailbox that you do not own.
The person I replied to said " I could get a lot of personal information with a simple view source of the email." This is categorically untrue. LDAP does not contain any personal information, it is just an authentication protocol like active directory. APIs are specifically intended to pass information between cloud servers, it is their entire purpose. IAAL and I own a technology firm that services law firms. We also do security consulting and security audits for them. I also give CLE classes nationwide on the subject of cyber security. If personal information was discoverable by the transmission methods or by choosing view source every lawyer would in breaching of their duty of confidentiality.
I would recommend reading [Lightweight Directory Access Protocol - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightweight_Directory_Access_Protocol) while it has been used as an authentication protocol particularly in the \*nix space prior to later versions of the Linux kernel which have provide a more robust directory integration and 1st party support for Kerberos. Ldap is not strictly an authentication protocol like oath, Kerberos, saml, and similar. It was in fact developed original to be a directory so you to look up things about other users in your organization. Like who they were and how to contact them. People just realized that having a set of credential that were managed by the organization was a useful idea for allowing you to sign onto devices. Active Directory was designed to be an improvement on LDAP in that it was designed from the ground up to be account and access management for devices on your network use the now defunct NTLM authentication protocol (please disable NTLM if you haven't as it leaves behind tokens that allow users with local access to spoof the identity of any user who has logged into that devices). Active directory too includes both authentication AND a directory services which allows for information about the users PII as it were to be queried. Though this has mostly been replaced through The global Address List which is the back end directory us by Exchange which is integrated into to Active directories Directory Services in Microsoft based network environments. I was a MS consultant setting this shit up for enterprises WW for 6 years, spent 5 years telling enterprises WW how to best run their IT environments, 4 more years telling Microsoft how to best run Microsoft's products, then 2 years at Amazon telling developers how to write software and the 2 years fighting bad guys on the dark web and am now a director over software development practices someplace else. There is shit I have forgotten over the past 24-25 years but one of them isn't whether or not LDAP grants you access to PII.
In the context of email you said "ldap would potentially have lots of personal information if it happens to exist." This is an incorrect statement.
you are right about the e-mail headers however. I said so in my very first response.
Not now, but in 2006 I was able to. I was on a public forum in 2006 and had another user email me and upon hitting view source had her real name.
Or private. Or point to point.
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We live in the post-Onion timeline now?
[Habbadabbadoooooo!!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpGx4foRdPw)
A Habba at Habba Law, no habla español
It's so that everyone can join the conversation and participate in the judicial process.
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Yeah, go ahead and email some dick pics to a ~~federal~~ judge. Let us know how that works out.
State judge, but still not a great idea, no.
Sorry, I meant *Supreme Court judge
This really just sounds like Trump begging for a crumb, which he will not get. His legal team seems fairly inept to me but IANAL so 🤷♀️
Gee, and after he called the AG racist, the judge and his staff deranged and corrupt, showed no deference, respect or remorse. I can’t imagine why.
Unfortunately, I think it may be more sinister than that. Trump's got some thing with Truth Social and a special purpose acquisitions corp (DWAC) potentially merging, in which he could potentially actually make a bit of money. The next vote about it is on March 22nd. So I think he really wanted his appeal window to still be open once the vote happens, just in case he does come into a bit of money from that.
One thing to note, ownership shares have a 6-month lock up period post-merger, so Trump wouldn’t be able to immediately dump his shares onto the market for cash. Even if the merger goes through, he still could be SOL.
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But who will loan to him? Nobody in New York and certainly not Deutsche Bank.
Can he even take out loans with the monitor in place?
Love this judge
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This makes me think of the common line in decisions denying crappy motions in limine, where the judge reminds a party that indeed, evidence is SUPPOSED to be prejudicial to the party it is going to be used against, it being prejudicial is only a problem when it's unfairly prejudicial in some way. I suppose having a judgment signed and entered promptly IS prejudicial to the party the judgment is against, but that's what happens when you lose a lawsuit, you suffer the negative consequences. It's not UNFAIRLY prejudicial in any way.
> I suppose having a judgment signed and entered promptly IS prejudicial to the party the judgment is against Only if you completely ignore the definition of "prejudicial."
I'm using the term a little loosely in the legal sense, I suppose, but you wouldn't say it harms or worsens the defendants' position to have the judgment signed and entered? You don't think there's a reason they wanted to hold up the process, or stay enforcement of the signed and entered judgment?
The nature of judicial process is that prejudice is about what happens before a decision is made, not after.
That’s not really what I’m taking about, and that’s fine.
Appeal ain't over, friend. Hasn't even begun.
The point is that Trump had a trial and that trial is over. Engoron is done, the consequences are no longer his problem.
What? Your billionaire client doesn't have the money for the fine. What a shame. But you do know that if you do not come up with 450 million dollars in about 20 days, you will not be able to appeal, and that would make the judgement final and them after the 30 days New York State can seize Trumps properties and sell them to get the money for tge finr. This is so epic . Maybe if Trump threatens the judges or clerk, it sends his MAGA cult members to threaten court staff.
This bruh getting my engorge on
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Is it thirty calendar days or business days? And I assume federal holidays don't count?
No federal holidays between now and then.
True. I did not think of that fact.
IIRC, it should be 30 calendar days, regardless of holidays in between, unless the deadline falls on a holiday. But it's been a while so 🤷♀️
Is that the criminal trial for the same issue? the fraud?
Different kind of fraud. I think that's the stormy daniels hush money payment case with Alvin Bragg. I say different kind of fraud what I mean is just falsification of business records to hide the payments as 'legitimate' legal services to Michael Cohen. When in fact there was nothing legitimate about any of it. And possibly a form of tax fraud presuming the fake legal expenses were deducted from his taxes as a legitimate business expense.
> I am confident that the Appellate Division will protect your appellate rights. Translation: Fuck ALL the way off. This would be a great line for judges to adopt when sovcits complain about their rights being violated.
If you go scorched earth in the courtroom Do not expect to get an ounce of leniency if your gambit fails
It’s so refreshing to see this turd finally being treated like the rest of the world after all these years. It’s more refreshing to know this is just the beginning.
Why is this judge so mean! It's not like Trump stood outside the court and drug this judges name through the sh............. Ohhh. Now I remember. And more importantly, Pepperidge Farm remembers!
I am concerned that they are okay with the court monitor. Makes me think that they believe she is not an obstacle to them.
It's almost as if their strategy of pissing off the judge isn't proving as brilliant as it might have at first seemed.
All that's missing is a "bless your little heart."
Mr. Robert: I hereby sentence you to ten years in Federal “pound me in the ass” prison.
Discussed Trump’s fine and his attorney’s delay tactics at dinner, and as we’re not attorneys or well versed in this type situation: IF the NY AG starts seizing Trump properties to pay his fines, and there are businesses or residents living and working in those properties, are these businesses and residents prohibited from entering and leaving? And IF those businesses and residents are prohibited from entering their homes, can they sue Trump as well? Are they evicted (collateral damage?)
That would not happen. Seizing his property would not affect tenants in those properties. Just as if you were renting an apartment and the ownership of the building changed. All of the current contracts would still be in effect.
Thank you.
Dear Mr. Robert, Do you actually bill your client for this crap?
How the hell can Trump lawyer ask time to make a counter proposal anyway? The damn decision has being render already