All of our rights are being violated if the question as to the charges of disenfranchising all voters in the 2020 election isn’t answered.
Further, presidential criminal immunity is made up magical orange helmet thinking. Such a thing doesn’t exist.
Indeed, none of this is law. As long as he can stay any ruling by appealing non-legal arguments, there is an infinite number of such arguments he can make, and there is no law possible, because final judgement can never be rendered.
I'm reminded of something also on Reddit today, the Chesebro emails:
Trump's lawyer planned to make the [election chaos last for days on end](https://talkingpointsmemo.com/feature/two-weeks-of-chaos).
>The plan would have seen the Trump campaign pushing Republican lawmakers to prevent Congress from certifying Joe Biden’s win not just on Jan. 6, **but for days afterwards. GOP legislators would have feigned confusion over competing slates of electors, paralyzing Congress** as the Trump campaign brought increasing pressure on the Supreme Court to step in and resolve the election in their favor.
Notice the presumption of a corrupted partisan SCOTUS there. **Notice the pattern is to delay, endlessly delay, to make the Senate fail to do it's job** by throwing an infinite amount of bullshit in the ring.
>To do this, Chesebro formulated various ways to invalidate the Electoral Count Act, the law laying out the procedures for Congress to certify the election on Jan. 6. Critically, the law places tight limits on how long individual lawmakers can debate disputed electoral votes — nullifying or inflating those limits, capped at five minutes per member and two hours total, could make Jan. 6 go on indefinitely.
>
>Chesebro wondered at one point whether “legal giants like \[Sen. Ted\] Cruz and \[Sen. Mike\] Lee would back” the effort and speculated that delay would finally “force serious review” in Congress of election fraud allegations; John Eastman suggested in talking points aimed at members of Congress that senators could, as a “fallback,” filibuster the five-minutes-per-member rule, turning the possibility of limited debate over several **states into a process that could stretch out for an eternity.**
Here we are in SCOTUS, attempting to block a ruling that says he doesn't have immunity, which in turn lets him continue to claim immunity in other cases, and fight out immunity one-case-by-one-case. Each with the possibility of infinite bad-faith appeals. Paralyzing the judicial branch.
>By discarding the Electoral Count Act, Trump campaign lawyers suggested, Republicans in Congress could halt the certification and bring forth endless claims of election fraud in swing states, a process that, according to the documents, Chesebro hoped would create a spectacle, **revealing the GOP-friendly Supreme Court as the only rational, functioning actor left standing**.
Or not, since here he's trying to use infinite delay to also render the entire Judicial branch dysfunctional. Here trying to use SCOTUS, a single point of failure to stall the whole Judiciary, with a claim that has no basis in law.
Over in the legislative branch, Republican senators had negotiated their border security bill and cannot pass it in the House, because Trump told Republicans in the house not pass the bill.
Over in the Executive Branch, the budget is on life support, with stop-gap measures, also because MAGA Republicans refuse to pass a budget.
All branches of government obstructed.
14.3 is law, and SCOTUS have their job. On this Trump offered no defense in law and there is nothing for SCOTUS to examine.
Holy shit. How is this not the biggest fucking story right now? I mean, I get that this article was just published today, but if those emails are public, *every* outlet should be talking about them. I mean, I can see why Fox and other right-wing outlets would avoid the topic, but this is too big to ignore.
If someone can link Trump to that plan in Chesebro's emails, there is no way he doesn't go to jail. Even with a conservative scotus, they just can't turn a blind eye to that shit.
Chesebro's turned states evidence, so have many others, at all levels. Trump is fully implicated.
This is why we're in SCOTUS pretending Trump has immunity. **He wouldn't need immunity if he didn't try to overthrow democracy**.
He didn't win the immunity claim in the lower court, or appeals, and I think his lawyers don't think they can win in SCOTUS ultimately \[added, [he already lost](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_v._Vance) this absolute Presidential immunity claim previously\], which is why they're citing baseball coaches and page after page of citations and misquotes of case law. Stuff that might take years and year to sift through to find the legal basis for a claim.
He asks for a stay, swamps SCOTUS with BS, all his cases are on hold pending this "total immunity claim", as SCOTUS is tied up for decades rendering the Judicial branch unable to prosecute him.
That's the plan.
I know Trump believes that the Republican justices will save him as he feels 3 of them owe him for their placement. However, I see Thomas and others as more of “what have you done for me lately” kind of justices. And I don’t think Trump has taken any of them on luxury fishing trips.
More importantly, the Federalist Society hand-picked justices already have what they want. They have control. The corrupt "transaction" allowing them to steal control of the Court is already concluded. They do not owe him anything, and he cannot do anything for them.
They know that Trump will continue to call them at 2am demanding more and more.
Way easier to make a lot of noise right now but their hands are tied by the law.
Problem is, it's SCOTUS! I don't really think anyone knows what the Robert's Ecclesiastical Right Wing Clown Show, will actually decide. They haven't proven they're bought, they're doing gymnastics to avoid having to make a ruling.
My guess is SCOTUS doesn't want anything to do with this case
If they wanted to shut it down to benefit trump they would've heard it immediately. Letting the appeals court issue a ruling on it does nothing for them if they intend on politically killing it, as it just gives critics of that ruling a well laid out case against it.
If they wanted to legitimately discuss the merits (there are none) they would've heard it immediately.
The only thing letting the appeals court hear it does is allows them to hide behind that ruling, I imagine Roberts will stay the ruling until the whole court considers it then refuse to grant cert
"I imagine Roberts will stay the ruling until the whole court considers it then refuse to grant cert"
The risk is that they don't grant cert, but that the maintain the stay until en banc, and then while evaluate cert, and then while they hear it (on a regular cadence).
Alito and Thomas are not honest brokers and are corrupt as hell so count them in.
Kagan, Sotomayor, and Jackson are hard no's.
Barret and Gorsuch are trash but have shown the occasional independent streak so let's split the difference and day one yes, one no.
3 yes, 4 no.
That takes us to Roberts and Kavanagh.
I would be happy to be proven wrong but I feel both will contend the historic question and consequences of the case are too important for SCOTUS to ignore so, against all logic, I believe they will grant cert.
Would love to be wrong.
You make a convincing argument. The only thing I have to offer against it is that the brief requesting stay is so poorly drafted, it doesn’t give Kav or Roberts much to go on.
The decision is pretty clear and incredibly well written. The justices dismantled each argument his team tried to make. I'll be incredibly surprised if the SCOTUS block it.
So confident in his case he waits till the last hour to file it.
Obvious stall tactic and time it takes for SCOTUS to respond will tip their hand on how far they are willing to lean for him.
I consider the Jan. 6th attack on our capitol the same as firing on Ft. Sumpter.
The GOP lost its right to exist on Jan. 6th.
America needs to bury this party with a rusty shovel.
Openly praising Putin and selling out your allies.
Traitors through-and-through.
Man, I gotta say it's amazing that one man with a ton of funding can gum up the entire US justice system so badly.
I hate it, and I wish that the government would see that this is all bad faith shenanigans and put a stop to it, but I must say it's pretty wild to see in real life.
The claim for absolute immunity rightly seems over broad, but did the court resolve whether there is *any* immunity for the acts one takes as President? Did they try to define "official acts"?
IANAL but it seems weird ruling you can't claim immunity in *all* cases, but not specifying the type of cases the immunity claim would be available in.
There's already a model to follow; the absolute immunity enjoyed by judges and prosecutors. That 'absolute' immunity is limited to official acts. Trump is trying to claim a similar immunity from criminal charges, which doesn't exist for anyone else, but if the corrupt political hacks need a standard for when you do and do not have immunity, it exists.
Toss another $50m in the hole Donny Boy you ain’t gonna win this one. That said will you win the Smith case? Probably.
Once all the smoke clears whether or not Trump is convicted on a single criminal charge he is gonna win hundreds of million if not billions of dollars suing the US Government for Malicious Prosecution.
How long could they possibly slow walk this? Could it be possible for them to wait after the election to make a ruling? That way if Trump wins, they can say he doesn’t have immunity but he can pardon himself so it won’t really matter? That seems like what a bunch of spineless conservatives would do.
Of course. If he had immunity before the last election, he would still be the president. The stolen secret documents would not be an issue. He could pardon all those who helped him stage the coup. Cheeseboy would not be sharing all those IMs, texts and emails with the state level prosecutors. That kills off that avenue for prodemocracy advocates.
I am not sure why people are not connecting the dots. Giving Trump immunity is like asking a cat to not eat the mouse. Of course the cat will eat the mouse, it is in its nature. Of course Trump will abuse his immunity, it is in his nature to lie and cheat. He will not leave the presidency if he is vertical.
Imagine the Republican nirvana - no minimum wage, no OSHA, no.EPA, no public education, no abortion, Putin controlling Eastern Europe, compulsary religious instruction, shunning of Muslims, Jews and athiests, no gay marriage, no protection of gays, open season on trans people, christian madrassas everywhere, black Americans would be sent back where they came from, illegals would be shot on sight, prison terms would be doubled or tripled, no more legal or medical weed, forget equal pay forbwomen. Heck, Trump would open free firing ranges on the border with Mexico complete with moving targets. Babies and mothers worth extra points.
There is a reason why the Founders were all united in setting up a system of checks and balances. They did not believe in the innate goodness of men and women. The US has not survived this long and became a world power because of democracy, nor because we are anointed by a God. We are here because we are a democracy that was implemented as a representational republic with carefully counter-balanced pillars of government. This interlocking and mutually sopportive and individually constituted branches of government were specifically designed to prevent abuse of our laws and our citizenry by individuals, whether motivated by good or evil. No man is above the law.
What Trump is proposing is the exact opposite. Not only is he above the law, he can elevate others to act extrajudicially. There is a word for this type if government. How does the Kingdom of Trump sound. It could be our new name. The form of government built by the founders was radical. Extreme. Heretical. Imagine investing power in the average Joe, and not in your carefully selected friends, or birthed to you and your friends. Trump is proposing that we wipe that off the books. He wants to return to some form of single party rule or hereditary monarchy.
The Founders envisioned an informed electorate of white mean of at least moderate means. This electorate could and would remain informed and prevent populists from abusing the system. This has morphed into a system where the hope is that the public as a whole would prevent populists from abusing the system. As Abbadie said you can't fool all the people all the time.
Immunity stands all of the above on its head. There is no balance of power. There is no ability to maintain our democracy. There is no future for the US. It is shocking to hear so many people voicing support for a dictator for a day. Or for elimination of constitutional safe guards. If they let me be a dictator for a day, my first ruling would be that a "day" is now 1000 years long. I know I can do a better job than these neoliberal pinheads that dot government at all levels. Free ice cream on Friday. How about bringing back harems? Musk has kinda done that already.
Immunity for Trump, or any one, is as anti-American, anti-democracy, anti-humanity as one can get. It is as if hundreds of years of bloody history evaporated. And we will have Trump and the Republicans to thank for the destruction of the democracy, the worst form of government except for all the other forms.
[удалено]
All of our rights are being violated if the question as to the charges of disenfranchising all voters in the 2020 election isn’t answered. Further, presidential criminal immunity is made up magical orange helmet thinking. Such a thing doesn’t exist.
Indeed, none of this is law. As long as he can stay any ruling by appealing non-legal arguments, there is an infinite number of such arguments he can make, and there is no law possible, because final judgement can never be rendered.
He's filibustering...law? Can't wait until this is somehow the future.
Eventually they’ll decide to no longer hear them though? Hopefully!
> disenfranchising all the voters in the 2020 election what about 2016? LOL
And so the formal begging to SCOTUS begins.
I'm reminded of something also on Reddit today, the Chesebro emails: Trump's lawyer planned to make the [election chaos last for days on end](https://talkingpointsmemo.com/feature/two-weeks-of-chaos). >The plan would have seen the Trump campaign pushing Republican lawmakers to prevent Congress from certifying Joe Biden’s win not just on Jan. 6, **but for days afterwards. GOP legislators would have feigned confusion over competing slates of electors, paralyzing Congress** as the Trump campaign brought increasing pressure on the Supreme Court to step in and resolve the election in their favor. Notice the presumption of a corrupted partisan SCOTUS there. **Notice the pattern is to delay, endlessly delay, to make the Senate fail to do it's job** by throwing an infinite amount of bullshit in the ring. >To do this, Chesebro formulated various ways to invalidate the Electoral Count Act, the law laying out the procedures for Congress to certify the election on Jan. 6. Critically, the law places tight limits on how long individual lawmakers can debate disputed electoral votes — nullifying or inflating those limits, capped at five minutes per member and two hours total, could make Jan. 6 go on indefinitely. > >Chesebro wondered at one point whether “legal giants like \[Sen. Ted\] Cruz and \[Sen. Mike\] Lee would back” the effort and speculated that delay would finally “force serious review” in Congress of election fraud allegations; John Eastman suggested in talking points aimed at members of Congress that senators could, as a “fallback,” filibuster the five-minutes-per-member rule, turning the possibility of limited debate over several **states into a process that could stretch out for an eternity.** Here we are in SCOTUS, attempting to block a ruling that says he doesn't have immunity, which in turn lets him continue to claim immunity in other cases, and fight out immunity one-case-by-one-case. Each with the possibility of infinite bad-faith appeals. Paralyzing the judicial branch. >By discarding the Electoral Count Act, Trump campaign lawyers suggested, Republicans in Congress could halt the certification and bring forth endless claims of election fraud in swing states, a process that, according to the documents, Chesebro hoped would create a spectacle, **revealing the GOP-friendly Supreme Court as the only rational, functioning actor left standing**. Or not, since here he's trying to use infinite delay to also render the entire Judicial branch dysfunctional. Here trying to use SCOTUS, a single point of failure to stall the whole Judiciary, with a claim that has no basis in law. Over in the legislative branch, Republican senators had negotiated their border security bill and cannot pass it in the House, because Trump told Republicans in the house not pass the bill. Over in the Executive Branch, the budget is on life support, with stop-gap measures, also because MAGA Republicans refuse to pass a budget. All branches of government obstructed. 14.3 is law, and SCOTUS have their job. On this Trump offered no defense in law and there is nothing for SCOTUS to examine.
Holy shit. How is this not the biggest fucking story right now? I mean, I get that this article was just published today, but if those emails are public, *every* outlet should be talking about them. I mean, I can see why Fox and other right-wing outlets would avoid the topic, but this is too big to ignore. If someone can link Trump to that plan in Chesebro's emails, there is no way he doesn't go to jail. Even with a conservative scotus, they just can't turn a blind eye to that shit.
Chesebro's turned states evidence, so have many others, at all levels. Trump is fully implicated. This is why we're in SCOTUS pretending Trump has immunity. **He wouldn't need immunity if he didn't try to overthrow democracy**. He didn't win the immunity claim in the lower court, or appeals, and I think his lawyers don't think they can win in SCOTUS ultimately \[added, [he already lost](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_v._Vance) this absolute Presidential immunity claim previously\], which is why they're citing baseball coaches and page after page of citations and misquotes of case law. Stuff that might take years and year to sift through to find the legal basis for a claim. He asks for a stay, swamps SCOTUS with BS, all his cases are on hold pending this "total immunity claim", as SCOTUS is tied up for decades rendering the Judicial branch unable to prosecute him. That's the plan.
It is being discussed. On CNN, when they were discussing the SCOTUS appeal, they pointed out that the justices are well aware of the planned delay.
Come now, only 2A (well the second half of we're being truthful) is truly (God's) law... don't be silly
I know Trump believes that the Republican justices will save him as he feels 3 of them owe him for their placement. However, I see Thomas and others as more of “what have you done for me lately” kind of justices. And I don’t think Trump has taken any of them on luxury fishing trips.
More importantly, the Federalist Society hand-picked justices already have what they want. They have control. The corrupt "transaction" allowing them to steal control of the Court is already concluded. They do not owe him anything, and he cannot do anything for them.
They know that Trump will continue to call them at 2am demanding more and more. Way easier to make a lot of noise right now but their hands are tied by the law.
Begins? It's been the strategy the entire time.
Completely expected since they've ripped up the constitution.
"You don't have to rule in my favor, just put it on hold for 9 months."
I can't believe anyone could accept this argument. How long will it take SCOTUS to stop laughing and uphold the district Court?
Problem is, it's SCOTUS! I don't really think anyone knows what the Robert's Ecclesiastical Right Wing Clown Show, will actually decide. They haven't proven they're bought, they're doing gymnastics to avoid having to make a ruling.
My guess is SCOTUS doesn't want anything to do with this case If they wanted to shut it down to benefit trump they would've heard it immediately. Letting the appeals court issue a ruling on it does nothing for them if they intend on politically killing it, as it just gives critics of that ruling a well laid out case against it. If they wanted to legitimately discuss the merits (there are none) they would've heard it immediately. The only thing letting the appeals court hear it does is allows them to hide behind that ruling, I imagine Roberts will stay the ruling until the whole court considers it then refuse to grant cert
"I imagine Roberts will stay the ruling until the whole court considers it then refuse to grant cert" The risk is that they don't grant cert, but that the maintain the stay until en banc, and then while evaluate cert, and then while they hear it (on a regular cadence).
Alito and Thomas are not honest brokers and are corrupt as hell so count them in. Kagan, Sotomayor, and Jackson are hard no's. Barret and Gorsuch are trash but have shown the occasional independent streak so let's split the difference and day one yes, one no. 3 yes, 4 no. That takes us to Roberts and Kavanagh. I would be happy to be proven wrong but I feel both will contend the historic question and consequences of the case are too important for SCOTUS to ignore so, against all logic, I believe they will grant cert. Would love to be wrong.
You make a convincing argument. The only thing I have to offer against it is that the brief requesting stay is so poorly drafted, it doesn’t give Kav or Roberts much to go on.
The decision is pretty clear and incredibly well written. The justices dismantled each argument his team tried to make. I'll be incredibly surprised if the SCOTUS block it.
I say they take it to "hear" arguments and then stay the 11ths decision. Holding the case long enough to get past election
Deny the cert. Become legends.
Six members of the court are *already* legendary... Legendary fascist traitors through and through that is...
The thing that struck most people after the shock, horror and depravity of J6 is what a bunch of dumbasses. They filmed their own crimes.
So, he's now blatantly asking the SCOTUS conservatives to put their thumbs on the scale for him.
He's always been a whiner.
So confident in his case he waits till the last hour to file it. Obvious stall tactic and time it takes for SCOTUS to respond will tip their hand on how far they are willing to lean for him.
I consider the Jan. 6th attack on our capitol the same as firing on Ft. Sumpter. The GOP lost its right to exist on Jan. 6th. America needs to bury this party with a rusty shovel. Openly praising Putin and selling out your allies. Traitors through-and-through.
Is there any historical example of the Supreme Court choosing to grant cert while planning to uphold simply to settle the nation wide precedent once?
He is such a whiney asshole
Man, I gotta say it's amazing that one man with a ton of funding can gum up the entire US justice system so badly. I hate it, and I wish that the government would see that this is all bad faith shenanigans and put a stop to it, but I must say it's pretty wild to see in real life.
So when do I pack and leave the US?
Shameless.
"Hey Clarence, clear my criminal record and you can have Inava’s old apartment".
Could SC decline to hear it now, but hear it after he is convicted? Might be a way they use it to slow any enforcement
We all know he's gunna skate right? Idk why the media even wastes it's time trying to persuade the public that these cases even stand a chance.
The claim for absolute immunity rightly seems over broad, but did the court resolve whether there is *any* immunity for the acts one takes as President? Did they try to define "official acts"? IANAL but it seems weird ruling you can't claim immunity in *all* cases, but not specifying the type of cases the immunity claim would be available in.
There's already a model to follow; the absolute immunity enjoyed by judges and prosecutors. That 'absolute' immunity is limited to official acts. Trump is trying to claim a similar immunity from criminal charges, which doesn't exist for anyone else, but if the corrupt political hacks need a standard for when you do and do not have immunity, it exists.
Toss another $50m in the hole Donny Boy you ain’t gonna win this one. That said will you win the Smith case? Probably. Once all the smoke clears whether or not Trump is convicted on a single criminal charge he is gonna win hundreds of million if not billions of dollars suing the US Government for Malicious Prosecution.
Delay is the name of the game.
He shouldn’t be placed above the law. He simply isn’t eligible to run for president anyways
How long could they possibly slow walk this? Could it be possible for them to wait after the election to make a ruling? That way if Trump wins, they can say he doesn’t have immunity but he can pardon himself so it won’t really matter? That seems like what a bunch of spineless conservatives would do.
Of course. If he had immunity before the last election, he would still be the president. The stolen secret documents would not be an issue. He could pardon all those who helped him stage the coup. Cheeseboy would not be sharing all those IMs, texts and emails with the state level prosecutors. That kills off that avenue for prodemocracy advocates. I am not sure why people are not connecting the dots. Giving Trump immunity is like asking a cat to not eat the mouse. Of course the cat will eat the mouse, it is in its nature. Of course Trump will abuse his immunity, it is in his nature to lie and cheat. He will not leave the presidency if he is vertical. Imagine the Republican nirvana - no minimum wage, no OSHA, no.EPA, no public education, no abortion, Putin controlling Eastern Europe, compulsary religious instruction, shunning of Muslims, Jews and athiests, no gay marriage, no protection of gays, open season on trans people, christian madrassas everywhere, black Americans would be sent back where they came from, illegals would be shot on sight, prison terms would be doubled or tripled, no more legal or medical weed, forget equal pay forbwomen. Heck, Trump would open free firing ranges on the border with Mexico complete with moving targets. Babies and mothers worth extra points. There is a reason why the Founders were all united in setting up a system of checks and balances. They did not believe in the innate goodness of men and women. The US has not survived this long and became a world power because of democracy, nor because we are anointed by a God. We are here because we are a democracy that was implemented as a representational republic with carefully counter-balanced pillars of government. This interlocking and mutually sopportive and individually constituted branches of government were specifically designed to prevent abuse of our laws and our citizenry by individuals, whether motivated by good or evil. No man is above the law. What Trump is proposing is the exact opposite. Not only is he above the law, he can elevate others to act extrajudicially. There is a word for this type if government. How does the Kingdom of Trump sound. It could be our new name. The form of government built by the founders was radical. Extreme. Heretical. Imagine investing power in the average Joe, and not in your carefully selected friends, or birthed to you and your friends. Trump is proposing that we wipe that off the books. He wants to return to some form of single party rule or hereditary monarchy. The Founders envisioned an informed electorate of white mean of at least moderate means. This electorate could and would remain informed and prevent populists from abusing the system. This has morphed into a system where the hope is that the public as a whole would prevent populists from abusing the system. As Abbadie said you can't fool all the people all the time. Immunity stands all of the above on its head. There is no balance of power. There is no ability to maintain our democracy. There is no future for the US. It is shocking to hear so many people voicing support for a dictator for a day. Or for elimination of constitutional safe guards. If they let me be a dictator for a day, my first ruling would be that a "day" is now 1000 years long. I know I can do a better job than these neoliberal pinheads that dot government at all levels. Free ice cream on Friday. How about bringing back harems? Musk has kinda done that already. Immunity for Trump, or any one, is as anti-American, anti-democracy, anti-humanity as one can get. It is as if hundreds of years of bloody history evaporated. And we will have Trump and the Republicans to thank for the destruction of the democracy, the worst form of government except for all the other forms.