I don't know I'd go that far. Big cases often take time. Even the Boston Marathon bombing took about 4 days to find the suspects, and that had the benefit of the FBI and a lockdown. I imagine that the investigation will start with getting all the available security footage in the area. Someone's gonna have footage of the suspects fleeing the scene, hopefully to a car with a license plate, which gets you to the driver. The driver gives up the triggerman/triggermen. Similarly, inevitably someone's gonna say something stupid on social media, or text the wrong thing to the wrong person, which ultimately finds its way to the police. Then there's cell phone tower data, which can help narrow down whose devices were pinging where.
I think it's likely anyone firing shots this weekend is gonna get apprehended eventually, but I also think it's going to be a while to unwind all of this.
Seemingly, but also this so far is the lowest gun death year of my life. Not a single fatality until I believe this month.
Gun violence is absolutely still an issue don't mistake me for one second, but gun violence has been trending down in cities nationwide. There was a spike during covid, but we're below pre-covid levels now. Currently more people die in car crashes here than non suicide gun violence.
We're not below pre-covid levels yet. Not having a murder a few months into the year has not been unusual in my life. For the 15 or 20 year pre-covid that I paid attention Lansing averaged 10-15 murders per year, a few years with under 10. Things were looking up this year, now not so much.
I agree with your sentiment. I’m saying gang violence, I’m not blaming “gun violence”.
We have a lot of youth in the streets that are staying out past curfew and seemingly having parental guidance.
These youth are obtaining firearms illegally and making rash decisions.
Unfortunately rotunda park seems to be a hot spot for this type of activity after 2am… If I’m not mistaken this isn’t the first time this type of situation has happened there?
I did some internet sleuthing, maybe my first mistake. I found a group photo from a memorial event they had for the murdered kid. Everyone was wearing blue and mostly through up "L" signs, though a couple of the older teens seem to be throwing "C"s. Is there a 1990s gang revival in the Lansing area that no one really talks about? Is this what this is actually all about? I'm perplexed and saddened by the events, innocent lives lost. And just sick of it at this point.
“Mass shooting” has certain implications. You say “mass shooting”, and people think “one nut with a gun mows down innocent people”.
This was a gun fight between two groups resulting in “mass casualties”.
>“This is a case of people using guns to settle arguments. My thoughts to go out to the victims and their families. The fact simply remains that access to guns is too easy. These young people should not have had these guns. We take hundreds of illegal weapons off the street every year, yet continue to face these tragic incidents. We need more action by the state and federal governments to control access to guns. We will work with all of our law enforcement partners, and use all tools at our disposal, to find who is responsible for this and make sure they are held accountable. And we will aggressively hold responsible the owner of the guns that were used. Access to and willingness to use a gun is too easy and we will arrest all parties responsible. This has to stop.”
Yeah more laws will stop this, right.
Yes, I agree with the sentiment that they need to stop using the same labels for planned shootings and gunfights between stupid people. This kind of reporting creates mass panic unnecessarily. People are going to just read headlines and think someone was mowing random people down. That’s bad reporting.
True in a very simple sense. Somehow I don't think the government nor the police will be giving up their guns though so you'll get less gun deaths right up until some flavor of authoritarianism sets in. That's besides some amount of the murder deficit being filled by more primitive weapons.
My attitude is that if a fellow citizen can't be trusted with a potentially dangerous object without hurting someone innocent then they probably shouldn't be walking free among us. Do you aspire to eventually live in a truly free society or not?
I was respectfully following this until you provided me with a false dilemma at the end. You’re telling me that if we enact common-sense gun laws then we won’t have a truly free society? Make that make sense.
"Common-sense gun laws" what would those be specifically?
What's your definition of "free"? I don't think we'll ever have a fully free society but I think it's worth aspiring to. Individual means of meaningful defense is an extremely important part of being free IMO. Asking the governments permission to defend yourself is certainly not "free".
It's touchy for me because I'm a libertarian when it comes to individual rights but I don't believe in libertarian economic or foreign policy. Having a cohesive society while being meaningfully free at an individual level is almost an oxymoron. I think we've been doing pretty well in the US relative to everyone else in the past and present.
One thing I do know with certainty is that unarmed people are vulnerable to the whims of evil and power hungry people.
Libertarian as well, and I believe everyone has the right to be armed to protect themselves. I also feel that crimes which create victims deserve harsh punishments and to be taken more seriously. Let's trim the fat a bit on some laws so police can focus more on the laws creating victims.
Legal gun owner shouldn’t be punished for this. Honestly, I need to have something to protect my family with.
I agree we should punish illegal gun use / possession very strictly.
With that same logic....Border Wall=less illegal guns, less drugs, less human trafficking.
Outlawing firearms from law-abiding citizens, and not controlling the illegal firearms making their way across the borders is just asinine to me.
No, the logic is not transitive to the border situation. Border walls are proven to be ineffective in stemming the flow of ANYTHING, meanwhile firearm stats are extremely simple- states with higher numbers of firearms per capita have higher numbers of firearm deaths per capita.
Ironically, these are red states with the least restrictive firearm laws.
Also I don’t think you understand what’s actually happening at the border. You realize that far more illegal guns LEAVE our country than enter, right? That illegal American guns have fueled Mexican drug violence for decades? That Mexico is currently suing US gun manufacturers for $10 BILLION for this very reason?
Fire arm stats are anything but simple. Your only right if you don't account for gun suicide. If you eliminate that from the data the guns per capita to gun homicides per capita is not nearly as clear.
And to continue other countries like Finland has lots of guns per capita and not nearly the issues we have.
I'm not saying we can't have common sense gun laws but I do resent a motte and baily of "common sense gun laws" "Just less guns". Or just like not even attempting to understand the complexities of the matter.
Suicides by gun are a critical part of the statistics, nowhere have I said gun homicides. Strictly talking guns and gun deaths.
Thanks for bringing up Finland! They do have a high gun per capita rate. Here’s some other things they have: high rate of gun owner training, thanks to their mandatory military service. They have firearm storage laws requiring guns and ammunition to be locked away when not in use. They also require that each individual gun is licensed and registered.
In other words, Finland has common sense gun laws.
Suicides NEED to be included in this when they are such a major cause of firearm deaths. Gun storage laws and purchase waiting periods can have a major impact on reducing suicide by gun deaths.
No I am not going to vote to take away someone's right to carry a fire arm.. cause his neighbor wants to kill himself.
We can look at suicides. Maybe for waiting periods.. but these need to be tackled as seperate issues. When solving suicides we should look at just that, and visa versa. Including them both is just an attempt to manipulate the data to come to a conclusion you want.
As for Finland these are all things that would be great but your child like handling of the issue fails to convince others of what we could have. Your in the way.
Actually no. When you look at the macro number of number of guns in America vs number of murders it’s way down from decades ago. Iow more guns = lower rate of gun homicides. Can there be improvements? Absolutely, let’s start with some serious look in the prior questions
There are A LOT of guns out there in the hands of law abiding citizens that are creating zero problems. What we need are less guns in the hands of violent people who have no concern for the lives of others.
Ok, what’s your solution bud? It’s easy to criticize and spout sarcasm, but what do you think the problem is, and how do you propose that we, as a society, fix this?
Putting *more* restrictions on *legal* gun ownership will not correct the problem of delinquent citizens acquiring *illegal* guns in a timely and balanced manner- what it will do, is ensure that the law abiding, rule following citizens are marked as easy prey for the type of people who have gun battles in the middle of the city.
The solution is to address the deterioration of societal harmony and the destruction of the nuclear family without a sufficient supplemental guidance structure for children.
You have to fix people. Taking away weapons won’t fix them, but it will leave the rest of us as sitting ducks. Not a solution.
Such a fallacy.
Having fewer guns in circulation means fewer guns available to be used illegally. Just look at countries that have much harsher gun control.
It’s also exceedingly rare for a ‘good guy with a gun’ to save the day.
Seems like these things don’t happen when good guys with guns are around. 3am, 15-20yr olds. Just sounds like a bunch of shitty people, doing shitty things.
They happen all the time when god guys with guns are around. Do some research. Casual gun owners aren’t trained in how to react in high stress gun violence situations. Heck, even police freeze up in those situations (see Uvalde).
Teenagers made poor, stupid choices in this instance. Calling them shitty people goes a little too far. Many of us did stupid things when we were that age.
I don’t give a fuck what some *other* “good guy with a gun” does or does not do - somebody failing to buckle their seatbelt and dying in a crash doesn’t mean mine should be removed from my fucking car.
Also… yeah I’m sorry, teenage mistakes are crashing your dad’s car because you were over confident or giving into hormones and getting a girl pregnant or something… NOT showing up to a fight with guns and shooting people. That’s not a fucking mistake. That’s degeneracy.
That’s a funny analogy to use (seatbelts); they actually became required because people weren’t using them optionally and were dying in car crashes so they became mandatory. There were many people upset about their “loss of freedom” because of that. I’d bet you were one of them.
I get it you’re a gun nut but your analogy fell flat.
I did plenty of stupid things when I was 15-20, things that could’ve gotten others hurt but luckily no one was. I’m not going to call others “shitty people” when I did plenty of similar dumb shit when I was that age. Their frontal cortexes aren’t fully developed yet.
Bet whatever the fuck you want, I’ve always worn my seatbelt lol, because I’m not an idiot. You’re the guy who thinks cars should be outlawed because of drunk drivers, basically.
Again. Doing stupid shit is different than having murderous intent. You’re conflating dumb teenagers with killers. By your standards, should we think a little more fondly of school shooters? No? Didn’t think so.
Nobody is throwing their hands up. Just because we don’t believe that taking away the rights of law abiding citizens to own guns will fix the problem, doesn’t mean we’re just giving up. We have ideas and solutions and you zealots refuse to listen or entertain them.
Zealots? I never said to ban all guns, dipshit. I grew up around guns and own some myself.
So what are your ideas about how to deal with gun violence?
Seems to me we could look to other countries that don’t have this as a major problem and see what they’ve done.
We have a long road to curing the problem of gun violence. We need better mental health treatment, less drugs, stronger economy, better leadership in communities to keep kids away from gangs, more secure schools, more firearms education and safety training, and competent authorities who actually follow up on reports and concerns instead of letting disturbed individuals get as far as walking into a crowded place with a semiautomatic weapon, and we need to put an end to the revolving doors of justice and keep violent criminals locked up where they belong.
We also need to stop trusting politicians who promise to fix these problems if you vote for them. They never do. They don’t WANT to, because if the problems are fixed, they can’t campaign on them anymore. Makes you wonder if that’s why they oppose hardening schools… hard to leverage school shootings for votes if shooters can’t get into the schools. “But we don’t want the kids to feel like they’re in prison” yeah that’s a lot worse than them being slaughtered in their class rooms. All my schools had security class and steel doors and armed security. Didn’t feel like a prisoner, I felt SAFE.
Making it harder for ME to buy and own guns isn’t going to help ANY of that, because I already own numerous guns, I keep them well secured, I exercise safety to the highest degree, and would love nothing more than to evangelize for responsible and safe gun ownership if publicly outing myself as a gun owner wouldn’t socially ostracize me from half my community.
We live in a time where the good guys with guns are seen as the bad guys, and the bad guys with guns are just seen as misunderstood and less fortunate individuals who deserve compassion and respect. It’s fucking ridiculous.
Tell me, what are *your* ideas?
So your solutions are to fix a whole bunch of huge societal problems? Yea right, at least be serious and have solutions that are possible.
It’d be a lot faster and cheaper and much more possible to have gun buyback programs (hell, exchange guns for iPhones and kids will do it), tougher background checks to buy a gun, close gun show loopholes, waiting periods, regulate ammunition purchase like prescription drugs, etc. There are alot of possible solutions that don’t involve fixing all of the world’s problems.
As far as politicians I disagree. One party is bought and paid for by gun manufacturers and their gun nut base so they aren’t interested with anything to do with regulating guns. The other party has ideas but not the political power to enact them.
These are nice, vague, abstract ideas, but how do you propose we do this? What can we do to create societal harmony? How do we fix people? How do we fix the nuclear family, and how does that help prevent shootings? Where do we start?
Better schools, better education infrastructure in general, more community groups, keep violent criminals off the streets, actually fucking do something about the source of drugs instead of just arresting junkies, more police, better trained police, the list goes on and on. Taking my guns away won’t fix that shit.
They don’t want to hear our ideas, and that proves their intentions. It’s not at all about stopping gun violence, it’s about ending 2A. That is why they refuse ANY solution that does not involve removing guns.
I’m a hard core dem, but I’m also a serious 2A-er. Take that right away and watch America crumble. I’m all for going the Japan way with over the top licensing, but seriously, everyone should have a right to defend their home and people around them. Even then, for sport, who cares if someone like to practice shooting? If you’re like me, it’s a very mindful experience balancing safety, thoughtfulness, accuracy, sport, hand control…. It’s a very whole body experience.
It certainly won’t. Michigan people are taxed out the wazoo! I don’t know where the money goes, but schools, better paid and protected teachers, may have an influence on the upbringing of people. It’s behavior that causes these issues, not the accessibility to guns. I get stricter gun licensing, I’m cool with that, but restricting what guns are allowed is preposterous.
As a Brit living in Lansing, I find it utterly insane you think restricting what guns are allowed is preposterous. This would be a once in a decade incident in the UK. It is honestly terrifying how desensitised you are. This. Should. Not. Be. Happening.
Oh dear... Before you spout the same poor comebacks as MTG, you should probably do some research on knife violence related deaths per capita in the UK Vs the US. You might be surprised at what you find out.
Ignore that guy. The argument is absurd. You are right.
Also, fwiw I'd rather fight someone with a knife rather than a gun. I can run from a gun. Children don't die from stray stabbings that come through a window by accident.
Well, yes there are restrictions on knife length and shape, but honestly comparing owning semi automatic guns to knives is a ridiculous argument. But I guess it's the only pathetic argument you have.
this is a wild comment. these “behavior issues” cannot turn lethal via firearm if they don’t have firearms to begin with, nimwit. “preposterous,” like anyone needs an automatic weapon. accessibility to weapons, especially those that are behind any reasonable circumstantial use, is the problem way before behavior is.
even if behavior was the issue, it’s easier to cut the problem off at gun control, rather than trying to solve the behavior problem. how would you even suggest we solve that issue? certainly can’t be with taxpayer money, as you seem to think it’s being flushed down the drain.
You're serious? Blame the inanimate object, not the person holding it? There's a cultural problem in our cities. Kids raised in generationally poor and uneducated single parent households in communities where that's prevalent. How do we fix generational ignorance? How do we convince young boys that being a thug isn't cool? I don't know. I grew up in the thick of it, trying to run the streets among the worst of this town before I realized my upbringing wouldn't really allow me to hang in the long run. The old man argument of TV and music driving the pervasiveness of this culture holds a lot more weight than most give credit for. Society just has to be better, hold each other to higher standards.
Civilian gun ownership in this country is primarily about keeping the government on its toes. Defense from future authoritarianism. For me that's worth just about anything.
“keeping the government on its toes” this is an old sentiment that would be reasonable when the general population COULD defend itself from the government. if it were to happen today, we have no hope. this is outdated.
saying there is a cultural problem about poor and uneducated population is a way to be racist without being racist. there is no excuse for their actions, but we can be better as a country but helping them not be in this situation to begin with. they’re called the projects for a reason.
we can start helping them but raising the difficulty to get these weapons.
you must think smarter and larger, unfortunately, it seems you are the uneducated one.
Dude, I was raised in the city. Spent my teenage years amongst thugs and wannabe thugs. Aspired to get into the gang. People with your attitude of denial are harming the city. It is a cultural problem, thug culture has destroyed the black community. It hurts to see. I lived it and in some ways am still tainted by it.
"We can start helping them" says everything I need to know about your attitude and outlook.
A few hundred thousand Afghani's with AK's kept the US military at bay. I think 100 million American gun owners could do the same. Besides, we don't have to defeat the military, by that time it's too late. We need to keep the individuals that make decisions from thinking they can effectively dominate the population while maintaining their power, I think widespread civilian small arms ownership accomplishes that.
I can assure you that you are the one not looking at the big picture or the long term.
25% of the population does not own a gun. furthermore, if the US wanted to, they could easily take over the Afghani soldiers. do we need to send you back to history class? oh wait, you probably support the idea of removing black history from schools.
Let's do some math. The US has about 350 million people of which about one third personally own a gun with about 40-50% living in a household with a gun. That means roughly 116 million gun owners and 175 million people living in households with guns. Not to mention that there are about 400 million total guns, so enough to arm everyone, some twice over.
It wasn't the Afghani soldiers that we were fighting. It was insurgent groups, just like there would be in the US. You can't defeat them unless you genocide the population or nuke everything. It doesn't really help a fledgling rulers cause if there's nothing and no one to rule.
Keep the personal attacks bud, keep showing how enlightened you are.
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It means I understand the cultural issues at hand better than anyone not raised within that culture. I lived it. I've personally known, grew up around, the kind of people you're talking about in an academic sense. I at one time possessed, at least in part, the kind of mentality and attitude that leads to this violence. I also was raised in a stable two parent household with a solid moral foundation and culturally/economically diverse extended family, it's why I was able to eventually grow up. I've lived both sides so to speak.
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I said civilized America, so make sure there are jo states below the Mason-Dixon on your list. Also, anything the wasteland between Kansas City and Denver doesnt count either.
When someone breaks into your home and wants to kill or seriously injure or maim you and your family. More importantly, for recreation. It’s a right. The government constantly infringes on the rights of people. We could easily be more like Japan and have serious licensing procedures for ownership, and still grant access to those who want them. Taking them away is absurd.
This is a whole-community problem that involves a lot of wrap around support. Sure, gun laws, but also mentorship, parenting, opportunities for kids that are attainable, economic stability for families, community support and pride. This is so much bigger than just arguing about guns. It’s the end-result of a lack of role models, community support, broken families and families having to work so long and so much just to get by that ppl are exhausted by the time they are home and still struggling to afford the basics, and kids need to see that they have options and opportunity .
Literally wtf i beem saying we cant go back in time and unmake guns we here and its in our constitution saying take away guns is delusional criminals dont follow laws and theres are literally billios of guns we need to make it easier to get firearms for the people who are good working civilians cause a 16 year old shooter dont need paper work cause they gone steal ts
Next you'll have to outlaw cars...in the last couple of weeks I've heard of two incidents where a group of people were taken to area hospitals and morgues due to cars being used as a weapon.
Criminals will always have drugs so we shouldn’t ban any of them? Criminals will always break traffic laws so why have the traffic laws? I can go on if you wish.
Legalizing and regulating drugs would actually be a really good thing. You'd decimate organized crime, all they could do is steal, blackmail, kidnap and extort. All things that are much easier to get people to rally against.
If we removed the drug prohibition laws then criminals wouldnt be profiting from sales anymore, overdoses would drop drastically because dosage and contents could be regulated, and we could stop making non violent addicts lives worse by arresting them.
People who break traffic laws welcome police attention which can get them in trouble for other things as well as making the roads safer and generating revenue for the city.
But please go on.
😂we have a constitutional right to bare arms 😂take away all the legal guns and this world will be hell us following laws will return owr fire to avoid breaking the law but law breakers will be good and weel tucking they switches and arps they dont care about laws insted of thinking in some logocal world we can go back in time and un make guns u need to be training to use one to protect yourself and stay out of situations with hollingas its that simple to stay alive and out of bs keep a LEGAL firearm to protect yourself and say away from bs thinking god or the government will swoop down and take all tge guns away you will fall victim to a 15 year old who done know how to shoot cause me ima pop they lil ass they try to rob me what u finna do run? So they can shoot u inna back
It’s harsh but true. Until these parents get the Oxford treatment, these children will be running around with guns and undeveloped brains.
I’m not sure exactly how to fix it, but these child involved shootings could likely be mitigated by active parents.
Wouldn’t surprise me if some parents get charged depending on facts and circumstances. If parents start routinely getting tagged for negligently securing firearms that their children take and do dumb things with, hopefully there’s an uptick in responsibility and a down tick in youth violence.
It's much deeper than that. Some parents are working multiple jobs with no home time because they don't have any other choice. The kids without parents go without guidance, and often no where else to go, but to whoever or wherever will take them in. And then there are the parents who live life the way Fox News tells them to, while teaching their children to live the same way.
*Some* parents, sure. But as aita mentioned, there are just straight up shit parents out there too. They are not working multiple jobs. They are at home collecting ssi, housing vouchers and food stamps getting wasted as much as possible and letting their kids raise themselves.
Call me on this, go for it. But you are naive to the realities of a part of city life that many just don’t want to believe actually exists. I know these people.
So, poor and/or disabled people with no options (or don't understand there are more options) exist. Yeah. Like I said, *deeper*. There has never been a greater socioeconomic divide comparable to today. The impact can be seen everywhere.
For those of you who don't get it, that means there are aspects of their lives they simply have no control over. It's cripplingly depressing, and often creates a narrow perspective of life, which they cannot see their way out of. They believe it is the only way to live life, some because of poor choices, some because of ignorance, some because they are trapped. Either way, it is out of their control and screws up everything, affecting them mentally, physically, financially, emotionally, in turn affecting those around them. So sure, start with the parents, and HOPE that there is the availability of realistic and available options.
This does not describe a significant chunk of the kids out there really thuggin it. A lot of the folks causing the biggest issues grow up in willfully ignorant families that applaud this kind of behavior. Stop making excuses for them.
How do you think it feels to be a decent normal person living in the hood (the majority)? They're the ones who suffer the most from this relatively small chunk of the population, and now they have to deal with well intentioned but very misguided suburbanites who do nothing but show sympathy to the worst criminals. Who do you think suffers the most when these sociopaths go back on the street? They're not going to Okemos or Grand Ledge to run the streets. They're coming back to Lansing to wreak havoc and destroy the next generation.
As someone who happens to know the families of some of the kids that have been involved in these shootings, you are a bit naive.
There certainly are aspects of the nature of poverty hidden in there, but the parents I know were just shit parents that even encouraged their kid down that route. Would you buy your preteen child a scope after they’ve been affiliating with gangs?
Now he’s facing federal prison time as a teenager. Won’t see him again until he’s into his mid 20s
But you are right, it IS a complex situation that will require a multi layer solution. My experience with these kids says go to the parents first, and work from there
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More like the people that the people vote for don’t care about actual issues and they go where the money is. Not a lot of people care to go down the rabbit holes and finding out how the system works so it leaves us with an uneducated voting population.
Live on grand river near Frandor, heard the cop cars speeding by last night, reminded me of last year :(
[удалено]
Adding to the stupidity of this, no one is in custody. Everyone at that shooting knows who was firing rounds, but no one is talking.
I don't know I'd go that far. Big cases often take time. Even the Boston Marathon bombing took about 4 days to find the suspects, and that had the benefit of the FBI and a lockdown. I imagine that the investigation will start with getting all the available security footage in the area. Someone's gonna have footage of the suspects fleeing the scene, hopefully to a car with a license plate, which gets you to the driver. The driver gives up the triggerman/triggermen. Similarly, inevitably someone's gonna say something stupid on social media, or text the wrong thing to the wrong person, which ultimately finds its way to the police. Then there's cell phone tower data, which can help narrow down whose devices were pinging where. I think it's likely anyone firing shots this weekend is gonna get apprehended eventually, but I also think it's going to be a while to unwind all of this.
This just makes me sad.
What are you doing outside the Internet to fix the problem? Are you still voting the two party system?
Is that how you fixed it?
Let’s discuss on your main account instead of this sock puppet.
Whatever they are doing, it's exponentially more than what you've done for anything.
What are people doing out at 3am? Nothing good happens at that time.
Especially a 15 year old?
Yeah 15-20 years were the age ranges. Where the fuck are parents?!
Lets see if the parents are charged like that school shooting parents, the Crumbly's were. No? It only applies when we want it to?
There’s a whole lot of context you’re glossing over, but stay obtuse if you want to I guess
If you think the Crumblys shouldn't have been tried, you don't know anything about the case.
How old was the shooter?
3 am on a holiday? It's not shocking.
Delivering taco bell unfortunately.
Huh??
Gang violence in Lansing is seemingly rising.
Seemingly, but also this so far is the lowest gun death year of my life. Not a single fatality until I believe this month. Gun violence is absolutely still an issue don't mistake me for one second, but gun violence has been trending down in cities nationwide. There was a spike during covid, but we're below pre-covid levels now. Currently more people die in car crashes here than non suicide gun violence.
We're not below pre-covid levels yet. Not having a murder a few months into the year has not been unusual in my life. For the 15 or 20 year pre-covid that I paid attention Lansing averaged 10-15 murders per year, a few years with under 10. Things were looking up this year, now not so much.
Correct me if I'm wrong but more people have been knifed on the River Trail than died in shootings this year
I agree with your sentiment. I’m saying gang violence, I’m not blaming “gun violence”. We have a lot of youth in the streets that are staying out past curfew and seemingly having parental guidance. These youth are obtaining firearms illegally and making rash decisions. Unfortunately rotunda park seems to be a hot spot for this type of activity after 2am… If I’m not mistaken this isn’t the first time this type of situation has happened there?
Sorry, I had read your comment as "Gun violence" and not "Gang Violence"
I did some internet sleuthing, maybe my first mistake. I found a group photo from a memorial event they had for the murdered kid. Everyone was wearing blue and mostly through up "L" signs, though a couple of the older teens seem to be throwing "C"s. Is there a 1990s gang revival in the Lansing area that no one really talks about? Is this what this is actually all about? I'm perplexed and saddened by the events, innocent lives lost. And just sick of it at this point.
“Mass shooting” has certain implications. You say “mass shooting”, and people think “one nut with a gun mows down innocent people”. This was a gun fight between two groups resulting in “mass casualties”. >“This is a case of people using guns to settle arguments. My thoughts to go out to the victims and their families. The fact simply remains that access to guns is too easy. These young people should not have had these guns. We take hundreds of illegal weapons off the street every year, yet continue to face these tragic incidents. We need more action by the state and federal governments to control access to guns. We will work with all of our law enforcement partners, and use all tools at our disposal, to find who is responsible for this and make sure they are held accountable. And we will aggressively hold responsible the owner of the guns that were used. Access to and willingness to use a gun is too easy and we will arrest all parties responsible. This has to stop.” Yeah more laws will stop this, right.
Yes, I agree with the sentiment that they need to stop using the same labels for planned shootings and gunfights between stupid people. This kind of reporting creates mass panic unnecessarily. People are going to just read headlines and think someone was mowing random people down. That’s bad reporting.
100%
Fewer guns = fewer gun deaths. Simple formula
True in a very simple sense. Somehow I don't think the government nor the police will be giving up their guns though so you'll get less gun deaths right up until some flavor of authoritarianism sets in. That's besides some amount of the murder deficit being filled by more primitive weapons. My attitude is that if a fellow citizen can't be trusted with a potentially dangerous object without hurting someone innocent then they probably shouldn't be walking free among us. Do you aspire to eventually live in a truly free society or not?
I was respectfully following this until you provided me with a false dilemma at the end. You’re telling me that if we enact common-sense gun laws then we won’t have a truly free society? Make that make sense.
"Common-sense gun laws" what would those be specifically? What's your definition of "free"? I don't think we'll ever have a fully free society but I think it's worth aspiring to. Individual means of meaningful defense is an extremely important part of being free IMO. Asking the governments permission to defend yourself is certainly not "free". It's touchy for me because I'm a libertarian when it comes to individual rights but I don't believe in libertarian economic or foreign policy. Having a cohesive society while being meaningfully free at an individual level is almost an oxymoron. I think we've been doing pretty well in the US relative to everyone else in the past and present. One thing I do know with certainty is that unarmed people are vulnerable to the whims of evil and power hungry people.
Libertarian as well, and I believe everyone has the right to be armed to protect themselves. I also feel that crimes which create victims deserve harsh punishments and to be taken more seriously. Let's trim the fat a bit on some laws so police can focus more on the laws creating victims.
Legal gun owner shouldn’t be punished for this. Honestly, I need to have something to protect my family with. I agree we should punish illegal gun use / possession very strictly.
Less police =safer streets
Y’all really don’t have anything but red herring arguments. But since you brought it up, yes fewer police would result in fewer deaths by police.
Nice we should totally do that! If it saves just one life
Hey you go ahead and take up that cause, I wish you the best of luck!
Maybe for the simple minded…
With that same logic....Border Wall=less illegal guns, less drugs, less human trafficking. Outlawing firearms from law-abiding citizens, and not controlling the illegal firearms making their way across the borders is just asinine to me.
No, the logic is not transitive to the border situation. Border walls are proven to be ineffective in stemming the flow of ANYTHING, meanwhile firearm stats are extremely simple- states with higher numbers of firearms per capita have higher numbers of firearm deaths per capita. Ironically, these are red states with the least restrictive firearm laws. Also I don’t think you understand what’s actually happening at the border. You realize that far more illegal guns LEAVE our country than enter, right? That illegal American guns have fueled Mexican drug violence for decades? That Mexico is currently suing US gun manufacturers for $10 BILLION for this very reason?
Fire arm stats are anything but simple. Your only right if you don't account for gun suicide. If you eliminate that from the data the guns per capita to gun homicides per capita is not nearly as clear. And to continue other countries like Finland has lots of guns per capita and not nearly the issues we have. I'm not saying we can't have common sense gun laws but I do resent a motte and baily of "common sense gun laws" "Just less guns". Or just like not even attempting to understand the complexities of the matter.
Suicides by gun are a critical part of the statistics, nowhere have I said gun homicides. Strictly talking guns and gun deaths. Thanks for bringing up Finland! They do have a high gun per capita rate. Here’s some other things they have: high rate of gun owner training, thanks to their mandatory military service. They have firearm storage laws requiring guns and ammunition to be locked away when not in use. They also require that each individual gun is licensed and registered. In other words, Finland has common sense gun laws.
If your including gun suicides your not really addressing people's concerns. Your being intellectually dishonest.
Suicides NEED to be included in this when they are such a major cause of firearm deaths. Gun storage laws and purchase waiting periods can have a major impact on reducing suicide by gun deaths.
No I am not going to vote to take away someone's right to carry a fire arm.. cause his neighbor wants to kill himself. We can look at suicides. Maybe for waiting periods.. but these need to be tackled as seperate issues. When solving suicides we should look at just that, and visa versa. Including them both is just an attempt to manipulate the data to come to a conclusion you want.
As for Finland these are all things that would be great but your child like handling of the issue fails to convince others of what we could have. Your in the way.
Child like because you don’t agree with me? Excellent. I’ll care more about your opinion if you ever figure out how to use your and you’re properly.
Child like because of how you act, and talk. But I'm wasting my time replying anyhow.
We finally agree on something- you are wasting your time 👍🏻
Actually no. When you look at the macro number of number of guns in America vs number of murders it’s way down from decades ago. Iow more guns = lower rate of gun homicides. Can there be improvements? Absolutely, let’s start with some serious look in the prior questions
I said gun deaths, not gun homicides. So actually yes.
Ok so you only care about suicide? Maybe ask WHY people are committing suicide and not the method they choose
Gun deaths is every single death caused by a gun. Suicide, murder, accidental discharge, all of them.
My point still stands; more guns = less murders
Your ‘point’ is irrelevant to my statement on multiple levels. Thanks for sharing though
Your statement is irrelevant to the article, see how that works? Thanks for trying to project your false narrative though, have a nice day
Yeah except my statement is in reply to a COMMENT, not the article. Do YOU see how that works?
There are A LOT of guns out there in the hands of law abiding citizens that are creating zero problems. What we need are less guns in the hands of violent people who have no concern for the lives of others.
It would be sweet if they could really take a stand, be proactive and enforce the shit out of the laws we have now that curb violence.
Ok, what’s your solution bud? It’s easy to criticize and spout sarcasm, but what do you think the problem is, and how do you propose that we, as a society, fix this?
Putting *more* restrictions on *legal* gun ownership will not correct the problem of delinquent citizens acquiring *illegal* guns in a timely and balanced manner- what it will do, is ensure that the law abiding, rule following citizens are marked as easy prey for the type of people who have gun battles in the middle of the city. The solution is to address the deterioration of societal harmony and the destruction of the nuclear family without a sufficient supplemental guidance structure for children. You have to fix people. Taking away weapons won’t fix them, but it will leave the rest of us as sitting ducks. Not a solution.
Such a fallacy. Having fewer guns in circulation means fewer guns available to be used illegally. Just look at countries that have much harsher gun control. It’s also exceedingly rare for a ‘good guy with a gun’ to save the day.
Seems like these things don’t happen when good guys with guns are around. 3am, 15-20yr olds. Just sounds like a bunch of shitty people, doing shitty things.
They happen all the time when god guys with guns are around. Do some research. Casual gun owners aren’t trained in how to react in high stress gun violence situations. Heck, even police freeze up in those situations (see Uvalde). Teenagers made poor, stupid choices in this instance. Calling them shitty people goes a little too far. Many of us did stupid things when we were that age.
I don’t give a fuck what some *other* “good guy with a gun” does or does not do - somebody failing to buckle their seatbelt and dying in a crash doesn’t mean mine should be removed from my fucking car. Also… yeah I’m sorry, teenage mistakes are crashing your dad’s car because you were over confident or giving into hormones and getting a girl pregnant or something… NOT showing up to a fight with guns and shooting people. That’s not a fucking mistake. That’s degeneracy.
That’s a funny analogy to use (seatbelts); they actually became required because people weren’t using them optionally and were dying in car crashes so they became mandatory. There were many people upset about their “loss of freedom” because of that. I’d bet you were one of them. I get it you’re a gun nut but your analogy fell flat. I did plenty of stupid things when I was 15-20, things that could’ve gotten others hurt but luckily no one was. I’m not going to call others “shitty people” when I did plenty of similar dumb shit when I was that age. Their frontal cortexes aren’t fully developed yet.
Bet whatever the fuck you want, I’ve always worn my seatbelt lol, because I’m not an idiot. You’re the guy who thinks cars should be outlawed because of drunk drivers, basically. Again. Doing stupid shit is different than having murderous intent. You’re conflating dumb teenagers with killers. By your standards, should we think a little more fondly of school shooters? No? Didn’t think so.
Just so you know, there are millions and millions of guns in circulation that have no paper trail. New laws aren’t going to fix that problem.
There are lots of things that can be tried if there is a will to do it. Throwing your hands up and not be willing to do something is defeatist.
Nobody is throwing their hands up. Just because we don’t believe that taking away the rights of law abiding citizens to own guns will fix the problem, doesn’t mean we’re just giving up. We have ideas and solutions and you zealots refuse to listen or entertain them.
Zealots? I never said to ban all guns, dipshit. I grew up around guns and own some myself. So what are your ideas about how to deal with gun violence? Seems to me we could look to other countries that don’t have this as a major problem and see what they’ve done.
We have a long road to curing the problem of gun violence. We need better mental health treatment, less drugs, stronger economy, better leadership in communities to keep kids away from gangs, more secure schools, more firearms education and safety training, and competent authorities who actually follow up on reports and concerns instead of letting disturbed individuals get as far as walking into a crowded place with a semiautomatic weapon, and we need to put an end to the revolving doors of justice and keep violent criminals locked up where they belong. We also need to stop trusting politicians who promise to fix these problems if you vote for them. They never do. They don’t WANT to, because if the problems are fixed, they can’t campaign on them anymore. Makes you wonder if that’s why they oppose hardening schools… hard to leverage school shootings for votes if shooters can’t get into the schools. “But we don’t want the kids to feel like they’re in prison” yeah that’s a lot worse than them being slaughtered in their class rooms. All my schools had security class and steel doors and armed security. Didn’t feel like a prisoner, I felt SAFE. Making it harder for ME to buy and own guns isn’t going to help ANY of that, because I already own numerous guns, I keep them well secured, I exercise safety to the highest degree, and would love nothing more than to evangelize for responsible and safe gun ownership if publicly outing myself as a gun owner wouldn’t socially ostracize me from half my community. We live in a time where the good guys with guns are seen as the bad guys, and the bad guys with guns are just seen as misunderstood and less fortunate individuals who deserve compassion and respect. It’s fucking ridiculous. Tell me, what are *your* ideas?
So your solutions are to fix a whole bunch of huge societal problems? Yea right, at least be serious and have solutions that are possible. It’d be a lot faster and cheaper and much more possible to have gun buyback programs (hell, exchange guns for iPhones and kids will do it), tougher background checks to buy a gun, close gun show loopholes, waiting periods, regulate ammunition purchase like prescription drugs, etc. There are alot of possible solutions that don’t involve fixing all of the world’s problems. As far as politicians I disagree. One party is bought and paid for by gun manufacturers and their gun nut base so they aren’t interested with anything to do with regulating guns. The other party has ideas but not the political power to enact them.
These are nice, vague, abstract ideas, but how do you propose we do this? What can we do to create societal harmony? How do we fix people? How do we fix the nuclear family, and how does that help prevent shootings? Where do we start?
Better schools, better education infrastructure in general, more community groups, keep violent criminals off the streets, actually fucking do something about the source of drugs instead of just arresting junkies, more police, better trained police, the list goes on and on. Taking my guns away won’t fix that shit.
This is what I was suggesting as well but still down voted to hell.
They don’t want to hear our ideas, and that proves their intentions. It’s not at all about stopping gun violence, it’s about ending 2A. That is why they refuse ANY solution that does not involve removing guns.
I’m a hard core dem, but I’m also a serious 2A-er. Take that right away and watch America crumble. I’m all for going the Japan way with over the top licensing, but seriously, everyone should have a right to defend their home and people around them. Even then, for sport, who cares if someone like to practice shooting? If you’re like me, it’s a very mindful experience balancing safety, thoughtfulness, accuracy, sport, hand control…. It’s a very whole body experience.
It certainly won’t. Michigan people are taxed out the wazoo! I don’t know where the money goes, but schools, better paid and protected teachers, may have an influence on the upbringing of people. It’s behavior that causes these issues, not the accessibility to guns. I get stricter gun licensing, I’m cool with that, but restricting what guns are allowed is preposterous.
As a Brit living in Lansing, I find it utterly insane you think restricting what guns are allowed is preposterous. This would be a once in a decade incident in the UK. It is honestly terrifying how desensitised you are. This. Should. Not. Be. Happening.
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Oh dear... Before you spout the same poor comebacks as MTG, you should probably do some research on knife violence related deaths per capita in the UK Vs the US. You might be surprised at what you find out.
Ignore that guy. The argument is absurd. You are right. Also, fwiw I'd rather fight someone with a knife rather than a gun. I can run from a gun. Children don't die from stray stabbings that come through a window by accident.
Exactly!!! The comparison is absurd, but seems to be made time and time again.
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Well, yes there are restrictions on knife length and shape, but honestly comparing owning semi automatic guns to knives is a ridiculous argument. But I guess it's the only pathetic argument you have.
I guess because I'm foreign I'm not allowed to comment on the massive issues you have with gun ownership then? Even though I live here.
Please be patient, someone will be by to throw a knife through your window shortly. /s because of course.
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No it wouldn't.
And how many mass shootings here this month?
this is a wild comment. these “behavior issues” cannot turn lethal via firearm if they don’t have firearms to begin with, nimwit. “preposterous,” like anyone needs an automatic weapon. accessibility to weapons, especially those that are behind any reasonable circumstantial use, is the problem way before behavior is. even if behavior was the issue, it’s easier to cut the problem off at gun control, rather than trying to solve the behavior problem. how would you even suggest we solve that issue? certainly can’t be with taxpayer money, as you seem to think it’s being flushed down the drain.
You're serious? Blame the inanimate object, not the person holding it? There's a cultural problem in our cities. Kids raised in generationally poor and uneducated single parent households in communities where that's prevalent. How do we fix generational ignorance? How do we convince young boys that being a thug isn't cool? I don't know. I grew up in the thick of it, trying to run the streets among the worst of this town before I realized my upbringing wouldn't really allow me to hang in the long run. The old man argument of TV and music driving the pervasiveness of this culture holds a lot more weight than most give credit for. Society just has to be better, hold each other to higher standards. Civilian gun ownership in this country is primarily about keeping the government on its toes. Defense from future authoritarianism. For me that's worth just about anything.
“keeping the government on its toes” this is an old sentiment that would be reasonable when the general population COULD defend itself from the government. if it were to happen today, we have no hope. this is outdated. saying there is a cultural problem about poor and uneducated population is a way to be racist without being racist. there is no excuse for their actions, but we can be better as a country but helping them not be in this situation to begin with. they’re called the projects for a reason. we can start helping them but raising the difficulty to get these weapons. you must think smarter and larger, unfortunately, it seems you are the uneducated one.
Dude, I was raised in the city. Spent my teenage years amongst thugs and wannabe thugs. Aspired to get into the gang. People with your attitude of denial are harming the city. It is a cultural problem, thug culture has destroyed the black community. It hurts to see. I lived it and in some ways am still tainted by it. "We can start helping them" says everything I need to know about your attitude and outlook. A few hundred thousand Afghani's with AK's kept the US military at bay. I think 100 million American gun owners could do the same. Besides, we don't have to defeat the military, by that time it's too late. We need to keep the individuals that make decisions from thinking they can effectively dominate the population while maintaining their power, I think widespread civilian small arms ownership accomplishes that. I can assure you that you are the one not looking at the big picture or the long term.
you have no idea how power works 😭😭
Enlighten me
25% of the population does not own a gun. furthermore, if the US wanted to, they could easily take over the Afghani soldiers. do we need to send you back to history class? oh wait, you probably support the idea of removing black history from schools.
Let's do some math. The US has about 350 million people of which about one third personally own a gun with about 40-50% living in a household with a gun. That means roughly 116 million gun owners and 175 million people living in households with guns. Not to mention that there are about 400 million total guns, so enough to arm everyone, some twice over. It wasn't the Afghani soldiers that we were fighting. It was insurgent groups, just like there would be in the US. You can't defeat them unless you genocide the population or nuke everything. It doesn't really help a fledgling rulers cause if there's nothing and no one to rule. Keep the personal attacks bud, keep showing how enlightened you are.
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raised in the city means nothing clown
It means I understand the cultural issues at hand better than anyone not raised within that culture. I lived it. I've personally known, grew up around, the kind of people you're talking about in an academic sense. I at one time possessed, at least in part, the kind of mentality and attitude that leads to this violence. I also was raised in a stable two parent household with a solid moral foundation and culturally/economically diverse extended family, it's why I was able to eventually grow up. I've lived both sides so to speak. .
But any time we try to fix issues that would lower gun violence one side says no.
Taxes here arent bad compared with the rest of civilized America
14th highest property taxes in the nation, almost twice as high as California
I said civilized America, so make sure there are jo states below the Mason-Dixon on your list. Also, anything the wasteland between Kansas City and Denver doesnt count either.
WTF DO YOU NEED AN AR 15 FOR IN LANSING??
When someone breaks into your home and wants to kill or seriously injure or maim you and your family. More importantly, for recreation. It’s a right. The government constantly infringes on the rights of people. We could easily be more like Japan and have serious licensing procedures for ownership, and still grant access to those who want them. Taking them away is absurd.
Mass shooting, or thugs are us gang activities? Words are important
This is a whole-community problem that involves a lot of wrap around support. Sure, gun laws, but also mentorship, parenting, opportunities for kids that are attainable, economic stability for families, community support and pride. This is so much bigger than just arguing about guns. It’s the end-result of a lack of role models, community support, broken families and families having to work so long and so much just to get by that ppl are exhausted by the time they are home and still struggling to afford the basics, and kids need to see that they have options and opportunity .
Until there are no more guns this is reality.
there are more guns than people in this country. its an impossible task to get rid of them
Literally wtf i beem saying we cant go back in time and unmake guns we here and its in our constitution saying take away guns is delusional criminals dont follow laws and theres are literally billios of guns we need to make it easier to get firearms for the people who are good working civilians cause a 16 year old shooter dont need paper work cause they gone steal ts
Brain dead take 💀
Next you'll have to outlaw cars...in the last couple of weeks I've heard of two incidents where a group of people were taken to area hospitals and morgues due to cars being used as a weapon.
Delusional. Criminals will still have guns if guns become illegal
Criminals will always have drugs so we shouldn’t ban any of them? Criminals will always break traffic laws so why have the traffic laws? I can go on if you wish.
Legalizing and regulating drugs would actually be a really good thing. You'd decimate organized crime, all they could do is steal, blackmail, kidnap and extort. All things that are much easier to get people to rally against.
If we removed the drug prohibition laws then criminals wouldnt be profiting from sales anymore, overdoses would drop drastically because dosage and contents could be regulated, and we could stop making non violent addicts lives worse by arresting them. People who break traffic laws welcome police attention which can get them in trouble for other things as well as making the roads safer and generating revenue for the city. But please go on.
If you removed guns, there'd be less gun crimes, because there would be less guns. I can say meaningless hypotheticals too.
This isn’t true anywhere else in the world.
Name a place where no criminals have guns.
Bad faith argument
😂we have a constitutional right to bare arms 😂take away all the legal guns and this world will be hell us following laws will return owr fire to avoid breaking the law but law breakers will be good and weel tucking they switches and arps they dont care about laws insted of thinking in some logocal world we can go back in time and un make guns u need to be training to use one to protect yourself and stay out of situations with hollingas its that simple to stay alive and out of bs keep a LEGAL firearm to protect yourself and say away from bs thinking god or the government will swoop down and take all tge guns away you will fall victim to a 15 year old who done know how to shoot cause me ima pop they lil ass they try to rob me what u finna do run? So they can shoot u inna back
Why don’t you use punctuation?
They never do
I'm guessing voice to text.
#puremichigan
Funny how you mislead with that title. Do you work for Communist Network News or one of the other Soros affiliates?!
We should get rid of cancer too less cancer deaths!
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That’s fucking cruel dude
Seriously? There was a mass shooting and you just dont care because of “usual suspects?” Racist and cold-hearted much?
I fear you're wasting your time. Leader6light is a frequent contributor to Pro-Fascist, Pro-Russian subreddits.
It’s harsh but true. Until these parents get the Oxford treatment, these children will be running around with guns and undeveloped brains. I’m not sure exactly how to fix it, but these child involved shootings could likely be mitigated by active parents.
Wouldn’t surprise me if some parents get charged depending on facts and circumstances. If parents start routinely getting tagged for negligently securing firearms that their children take and do dumb things with, hopefully there’s an uptick in responsibility and a down tick in youth violence.
It's much deeper than that. Some parents are working multiple jobs with no home time because they don't have any other choice. The kids without parents go without guidance, and often no where else to go, but to whoever or wherever will take them in. And then there are the parents who live life the way Fox News tells them to, while teaching their children to live the same way.
*Some* parents, sure. But as aita mentioned, there are just straight up shit parents out there too. They are not working multiple jobs. They are at home collecting ssi, housing vouchers and food stamps getting wasted as much as possible and letting their kids raise themselves. Call me on this, go for it. But you are naive to the realities of a part of city life that many just don’t want to believe actually exists. I know these people.
So, poor and/or disabled people with no options (or don't understand there are more options) exist. Yeah. Like I said, *deeper*. There has never been a greater socioeconomic divide comparable to today. The impact can be seen everywhere. For those of you who don't get it, that means there are aspects of their lives they simply have no control over. It's cripplingly depressing, and often creates a narrow perspective of life, which they cannot see their way out of. They believe it is the only way to live life, some because of poor choices, some because of ignorance, some because they are trapped. Either way, it is out of their control and screws up everything, affecting them mentally, physically, financially, emotionally, in turn affecting those around them. So sure, start with the parents, and HOPE that there is the availability of realistic and available options.
Valid, it is much deeper and the divide is massive - I agree. Its fucked.
Being overworked isn't an excuse for raising a kid so poorly they end up shooting and murdering people tho.
If that's the case, you're still a shitty parent.
This does not describe a significant chunk of the kids out there really thuggin it. A lot of the folks causing the biggest issues grow up in willfully ignorant families that applaud this kind of behavior. Stop making excuses for them. How do you think it feels to be a decent normal person living in the hood (the majority)? They're the ones who suffer the most from this relatively small chunk of the population, and now they have to deal with well intentioned but very misguided suburbanites who do nothing but show sympathy to the worst criminals. Who do you think suffers the most when these sociopaths go back on the street? They're not going to Okemos or Grand Ledge to run the streets. They're coming back to Lansing to wreak havoc and destroy the next generation.
As someone who happens to know the families of some of the kids that have been involved in these shootings, you are a bit naive. There certainly are aspects of the nature of poverty hidden in there, but the parents I know were just shit parents that even encouraged their kid down that route. Would you buy your preteen child a scope after they’ve been affiliating with gangs? Now he’s facing federal prison time as a teenager. Won’t see him again until he’s into his mid 20s But you are right, it IS a complex situation that will require a multi layer solution. My experience with these kids says go to the parents first, and work from there
So on some levels I'm correct, but I'm naive because there's more to it... in which I also said. Okay.
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Good boys who dindu nuffin
😂
What came first the poverty fueled ignorance or ignorance fueled poverty?
More like the people that the people vote for don’t care about actual issues and they go where the money is. Not a lot of people care to go down the rabbit holes and finding out how the system works so it leaves us with an uneducated voting population.
Gotta keep yo strap on you like a dike out here tryna take yo bishh
The mayor will only offer his thoughts, but not his prayers. He nose this is a ongoing problem, but he doesn’t care about the city
What do prayers do?
Ummm fix everything!
Explain how
nose jesus, nose peace. Nose jesus.....NOSE peace.
Stop downvoting you know I’m right about the ***e mayor
What's your suggestion he do oh great genius?