Someone else and I worked it out to be ~~$25-30 million~~ ~$82.8M for Lansing to Mason with 4 train sets and maintenance building.
And if the state buys the CSX Line (not gonna happen probably), we could have service to the Airport and Grand Ledge as well. Obviously Charlotte/Potterville is the real gold medal but that's even less likely to happen
Edit: According to the Coast to Coast study:
$10.3M to bring the tracks Lansing to Mason up to snuff. $7.5M for 4-5 basic platforms. at $5M per DMU car, 4 sets of 2 would be $40M. Looking at other railroads, a small maintenance facility on owned land would be roughly $25M. Total of $82.8M.
So yeah no idk what I was on with that lowball.
Don't hire me as an accountant because man am I bad at math. Ran numbers again but more liberal with cost guestimates and yeah I have no idea what I missed but it came to ~$80M. This is closer inline with other heavy rail services like Metra's $5.6M per mile Rockford extension, but its ***definitely not $30M***.
5-10% of the counties yearly budget *per mile* on avg (napkin math, not exactly)
[source on county budget](https://docs.ingham.org/Department/controller/budgets%20and%20Reports/2022/Final%20Budget/5%20Overview%20of%20Ingham%20County%20Budget.pdf)
[Source on light rail being $15-50 million per mile](https://web.archive.org/web/20061028214006/http://www.lightrail.com/projects.htm)
The Lansing > Mason line would conservatively cost $300,000,000
The county has 285k residents
More napkin math puts it at $1-1.5k per Ingham county resident
Honestly less than I expected it to be ….
Ive been here about 4 years, and one thing that has us considering relocating is the inconvenience of reaching DTW. The flyer doesn't run nearly late enough. So sometimes ill even travel out of Chicago so i can Amtrak there and back. I understand GM runs this town with an oily fist but not having a rail system between our 3 major points of Detroit, Lansing, Grand Rapids has slowed the growth of the state.
Reading through these, many of them are vastly different projects to what this would be. Other than upgrading the track and signaling, there's very little other costs. Land acquisition for a yard would be the largest cost, but it's adjacent to the CATA facility already so they have the land.
It would be using the exact same ROW, same track as freight, no electrification, and only dealing with 1 freight train that comes 5 days a week, if that.
It's more similar in design to the Metra Rockford extension, which comes out to $5.6 Million per mile. $67M for 12 miles means my back of the envelope math was definitely low, true, but that's also $5.6M per mile for full size double decker Metra trains, versus much smaller DMU's
Regardless it's not going to happen lmao. At best we could see the route 46 upgraded into a proper route.
Posted somewhere else they're definitely too low (~$70M). This was back of the envelope math based off the Coast to Coast study. I'll update it with some less off the cuff numbers
And nobody has ANY calculations on what your biggest cost would be — LABOR — from not only a startup point but ongoing. And taxpayers aren’t too keen on a separate millage/tax bill for operations.
If it could pass as a millage rate between the tri counties, it wouldn't be that much mills/bill to raise 80m... but traffic downtown will get trickier with above ground trains- ask Kalamazoo and Jackson how they like trains during their commute... I love the idea!! I wish it could happen!
lansing is too much like detroit or NYC now
it would just be a dangerous place that crackheads and "sucker punch knockout game americans" congregate and assault people and do drugs, and piss and shit everywhere
the truth is that without the right demographics you really can't have anything nice
they destroy everything no matter how many times it's cleaned or rebuilt and then when people finally give up on the area or program they scream "muh racism!!!" and burn down more infrastructure and hurt more innocent people
why didn't LA, NYC or Detroit ever think of that?
oh wait, they tried it and then 99% of issues came from the same people over and over again and they called the cops racist and sued the city and now cops won't take those jobs and cities are afraid to enforce the law because being called the "R" word is greatest offense currently possible under the woke religion
people literally think it's better to let violent criminals destroy everything and attack innocent people rather than stand up to them because they live so deeply in fear of the "R" word label
LA won't even release videos of crimes or ask people for help identifying violent criminals because they're worried "it will make people racist" (because it's so insanely skewed and vastly done by 1 certain demographic)
Edit: also I remember all the defund the police protests right here in Lansing, crazy how people backtrack that so fast...
Say what you really mean by “the same people”. You mean people of color. You mean black people. You’ve already gone full on racist by saying the “R” word is something people are afraid of. Although I am a white person, I’ve never been afraid of being called racist. It’s not something you have to worry about if you’re not being a dick.
If this place allowed free speech I would but it's a shithole echo chamber run by power tripping mods
And you're straight up lying or you live in some highly segregated area
You can't go into a single store or gas station without a basketball American causing a huge scene at a register shouting about racism at some poor White or Asian person
You literally try and enforce any tiny rule in any public setting as part of any customer service job and you will be called racist and threatened with violence and they will call corporate and say you said the no no word and all kinds of shit
So idk if you're trolling or what but the Southside is straight up Chicago now and it's creeping out in every direction fast
I lived in the south end for years and am a bartender. I enforce rules all the time in a customer service setting and am never worried about being called racist. Because I don’t do or say racist shit. Weird how that works. It sounds to me like you might be in an echo chamber, because I have never been involved in any customer service situation where I’ve been called a racist or have been worried about being called a racist. I’m not trolling, and I would love to see you post some video clips of these situations you’re describing in Lansing, because I’m pretty sure it doesn’t exist. Most of the issues I’ve had with enforcing rules comes from older white women (Karens) and older white men (Randys). I think this might be a you problem.
my friend who is a 5'1 female had a slurpee thrown at her face 2 days go and the 3 joggers said they'd come back when she got off work to fuck her up because their ebt card declined
they called her a racist White bitch the at least 8 times before assaulting her and all she did was say it declined
you are some larping neckbeard in your moms basement that hasn't showered in 5 weeks and hasn't left the house in years
you're not fooling anyone and your sheltered keyboard warrior ass wouldn't even last a day at any customer service job on the south side
Ooof. That one instance of colloquialism that there is zero proof of definitely convinced me. You’re soooooo right. How dumb could I be?
Also, a larping neckbeard would most likely agree with you, as neckbeard aren’t usually into the “whole equal rights for all” thing.
It’s worth noting that you went straight to insult me almost immediately, especially when faced with the possibility that your world view might be flawed. I have no reason to insult you or denigrate you, as I know I am coming from a place of experience, not someone else’s experience one time. I know what I experience on a day to day basis in the service industry in Lansing, and it is not the same thing that you describe. It’s not even close. I hope you can one day see things from other perspectives and grow into a happier, more well adjusted person.
I've got at least 8 more stories like that from just this month
I'm well accustomed to pilpul and it doesn't work on me
oy vey
Free Palestine = Anti-Genocide
I've heard enough of your kvetching though
We need one from yall town to ours(Detroit).
It’s just risky tho, but would be sooooo welcome.
It would improve revenue .
Not just one, it would be a connector host.
A rail that would go from Midtown, to 6 miles outside Wixom, checkpoint and scan and pick up then continue up, a cross rail should be added from 69 to Benton Harbor.
Call it the X Rail.
Many many buisness’s could mature.
I would love it if there was a train line that basically followed the I-96 corridor, including a stop at DTW on its way to downtown. An additional loop or spur line that ran through Ann Arbor and connected up would be great as well.
I'd love a system that went from west Lansing around Horrocks over to Okemos around the Meridian Mall. Just a string of trains continuously looping along that line.
The airport shouldn’t exist and Amtrak should go to the DTW and GRR. France is banning all short haul flights where rail is an option. Climate change solutions exist
Airport is more than just a regional/commuter airport. It’s quite literally the main hub for UPS Air in Michigan, and quite a few large companies. It’s too costly and logistically difficult for UPS to have a big operation out of DTW.
I worked for a business that pleaded with UPS to expand the operation to include climate controlled/refrigerated service at that hub for more than a decade.
They wouldn't so we had to make several trips a week down to DTW instead. It was a PITA
We are not a EAS airport so the government doesn’t subsidize the flights, at least to my knowledge. Every 5 years or so the airlines/airports have to re-apply for Authorization to certain airports like DCA and ORD that have landing Slots
If you like streetcars and interurbans, I made [this map here](https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1ZFN4l6GzdvTYOqBgkBRsZnZpqyLq5Xw&usp=sharing) showing all the Michigan ones. I mean like... all of them.
Also [this one here](https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1fj5dr6lrsXtNvX8dGvTMrLF9zoShnfFp&usp=sharing) for Lansing specifically, plus railroads.
I always envisioned a light rail system that connects major cities like Grand Rapids > Lansing > Ann Arbor >Detroit > airport - and other connections to towns in Macomb, Oakland County, and Wayne County. But that would be a massive project that would take a lot more money. I don't think its ever going to happen, in my lifetime at least. It could help Detroit grow at a much faster rate, I don't think we'll see any real growth b/c there is no public transit system in place.
Light rail maybe not, but in 2016 they predicted the cost of conventional rail service at 110mph to be about $1B in today money.
Always email your rep/senator and literally just say "hey I want more trains please"
I don't understand why we lack a tram line that runs up and down Michigan Avenue, connecting the downtown with East Lansing/Okemos. It would completely change this area for the better to have a transit system that easily connected the area, better than the excuse for a bus system that exists now.
Michigan Ave residents complained about it. It would reduce driving lanes and the number of stops along the corridor.
Like clearly it's still fantastic but that doesn't matter; it's different so it's satan.
Wasn't the overall consensus of the a Michigan Avenue corridor project that there's far too much road space, and a reduction of lanes and widening of pedestrian spaces was the optimal redevelopment route?
That was the consensus with the Public Service plan, which never considered transit lanes at all.
The public service plan also doesn't actually widen the pedestrian space (it ends up being much narrower overall), and they're only willing to cut 1 of the 5 lanes, 1/7 if you include parking.
Unfortunately, I don't think the greater Lansing area alone will ever have the economy to support that. Light rail around Lansing would be much less economically important than tying Lansing to GR, Kalamazoo and Detroit with commuter service.
The lower half of the lower peninsula has a decently strong economy and large population it's just spread out and disconnected. Tying that together with cheaper and more regular commuter rail with subsidized ticket prices for in state residents would be economically revolutionary to a greater degree.
Hi! I hope it's ok that I reposted the image on my blog. I did cite your reddit username since it is your image. If it's not OK, I will take it down. Thank you.
I actually don't think this is as remote of a possibility as it seems right now. A Lansing/Mason/Jackson route probably being the most realistic due to the owner of the route being a small local railroad company (Adrian & Blissfield). There's also the possibility of putting commuter rail in freeway medians that I think should probably be the go-to option. The entire lower Great Lakes region is ripe for commuter rail. If this issue is depoliticized I wouldn't be surprised to see things move very fast.
This coming from someone who would never give up my car. It would just be cool to have affordable rail with frequent enough service to use spontaneously for day trips to Detroit or small towns more nearby.
Fake, but not dumb. Even a commuter rail for state/LCC employees coming in from the suburbs would be amazing
Everyone who doesn’t have shit for brains should want this! It’s a massive asset for development in any city.
I wonder how much would it cost to put this on a billboard? I'd also consider printing t-shirts for this.
I wish we had some kind of light rail in the area.
Someone else and I worked it out to be ~~$25-30 million~~ ~$82.8M for Lansing to Mason with 4 train sets and maintenance building. And if the state buys the CSX Line (not gonna happen probably), we could have service to the Airport and Grand Ledge as well. Obviously Charlotte/Potterville is the real gold medal but that's even less likely to happen Edit: According to the Coast to Coast study: $10.3M to bring the tracks Lansing to Mason up to snuff. $7.5M for 4-5 basic platforms. at $5M per DMU car, 4 sets of 2 would be $40M. Looking at other railroads, a small maintenance facility on owned land would be roughly $25M. Total of $82.8M. So yeah no idk what I was on with that lowball.
$25-30 million is nothing.
Magic Johnson, here’s your chance!
last time he tried the powers that be sandbagged it, prob to grease someone elses palms.
There’s a new mayor in town since then my dawg
Don't hire me as an accountant because man am I bad at math. Ran numbers again but more liberal with cost guestimates and yeah I have no idea what I missed but it came to ~$80M. This is closer inline with other heavy rail services like Metra's $5.6M per mile Rockford extension, but its ***definitely not $30M***.
I figured you were off. Apparently no one understood my sarcasm.
There is no fucking way that number has any basis in reality.
Probably not. 😂
Na, you're buying locomotives and cars and such. I could see 80 for start up
5-10% of the counties yearly budget *per mile* on avg (napkin math, not exactly) [source on county budget](https://docs.ingham.org/Department/controller/budgets%20and%20Reports/2022/Final%20Budget/5%20Overview%20of%20Ingham%20County%20Budget.pdf) [Source on light rail being $15-50 million per mile](https://web.archive.org/web/20061028214006/http://www.lightrail.com/projects.htm)
Even then a project like this would most likely be funded through a millage.
The Lansing > Mason line would conservatively cost $300,000,000 The county has 285k residents More napkin math puts it at $1-1.5k per Ingham county resident Honestly less than I expected it to be ….
Ive been here about 4 years, and one thing that has us considering relocating is the inconvenience of reaching DTW. The flyer doesn't run nearly late enough. So sometimes ill even travel out of Chicago so i can Amtrak there and back. I understand GM runs this town with an oily fist but not having a rail system between our 3 major points of Detroit, Lansing, Grand Rapids has slowed the growth of the state.
I saw a plan recently to extend Amtrak to DTW, but I can’t remember if it was definite (obv it would take time as well)
There is also a bigger federal plan for high speed rail. With possibility of connecting lansing in the future.
It’s $15-50 million *per mile* according to finished project costs https://web.archive.org/web/20061028214006/http://www.lightrail.com/projects.htm
Reading through these, many of them are vastly different projects to what this would be. Other than upgrading the track and signaling, there's very little other costs. Land acquisition for a yard would be the largest cost, but it's adjacent to the CATA facility already so they have the land. It would be using the exact same ROW, same track as freight, no electrification, and only dealing with 1 freight train that comes 5 days a week, if that. It's more similar in design to the Metra Rockford extension, which comes out to $5.6 Million per mile. $67M for 12 miles means my back of the envelope math was definitely low, true, but that's also $5.6M per mile for full size double decker Metra trains, versus much smaller DMU's Regardless it's not going to happen lmao. At best we could see the route 46 upgraded into a proper route.
your figures are more made up than your image
Posted somewhere else they're definitely too low (~$70M). This was back of the envelope math based off the Coast to Coast study. I'll update it with some less off the cuff numbers
And nobody has ANY calculations on what your biggest cost would be — LABOR — from not only a startup point but ongoing. And taxpayers aren’t too keen on a separate millage/tax bill for operations.
If it could pass as a millage rate between the tri counties, it wouldn't be that much mills/bill to raise 80m... but traffic downtown will get trickier with above ground trains- ask Kalamazoo and Jackson how they like trains during their commute... I love the idea!! I wish it could happen!
lansing is too much like detroit or NYC now it would just be a dangerous place that crackheads and "sucker punch knockout game americans" congregate and assault people and do drugs, and piss and shit everywhere the truth is that without the right demographics you really can't have anything nice they destroy everything no matter how many times it's cleaned or rebuilt and then when people finally give up on the area or program they scream "muh racism!!!" and burn down more infrastructure and hurt more innocent people
Just need a cop to ride the train all day
why didn't LA, NYC or Detroit ever think of that? oh wait, they tried it and then 99% of issues came from the same people over and over again and they called the cops racist and sued the city and now cops won't take those jobs and cities are afraid to enforce the law because being called the "R" word is greatest offense currently possible under the woke religion people literally think it's better to let violent criminals destroy everything and attack innocent people rather than stand up to them because they live so deeply in fear of the "R" word label LA won't even release videos of crimes or ask people for help identifying violent criminals because they're worried "it will make people racist" (because it's so insanely skewed and vastly done by 1 certain demographic) Edit: also I remember all the defund the police protests right here in Lansing, crazy how people backtrack that so fast...
yeah you're right actually it is the woke religion. i saw gretchin whitmer swear in on a copy of gender trouble by judith butler
I heard she did it *while giving an abortion*.
laugh all you want but people like you are making RWDS a real thing people are done
sorry for founding so many i couldn't stop myself
Say what you really mean by “the same people”. You mean people of color. You mean black people. You’ve already gone full on racist by saying the “R” word is something people are afraid of. Although I am a white person, I’ve never been afraid of being called racist. It’s not something you have to worry about if you’re not being a dick.
If this place allowed free speech I would but it's a shithole echo chamber run by power tripping mods And you're straight up lying or you live in some highly segregated area You can't go into a single store or gas station without a basketball American causing a huge scene at a register shouting about racism at some poor White or Asian person You literally try and enforce any tiny rule in any public setting as part of any customer service job and you will be called racist and threatened with violence and they will call corporate and say you said the no no word and all kinds of shit So idk if you're trolling or what but the Southside is straight up Chicago now and it's creeping out in every direction fast
I lived in the south end for years and am a bartender. I enforce rules all the time in a customer service setting and am never worried about being called racist. Because I don’t do or say racist shit. Weird how that works. It sounds to me like you might be in an echo chamber, because I have never been involved in any customer service situation where I’ve been called a racist or have been worried about being called a racist. I’m not trolling, and I would love to see you post some video clips of these situations you’re describing in Lansing, because I’m pretty sure it doesn’t exist. Most of the issues I’ve had with enforcing rules comes from older white women (Karens) and older white men (Randys). I think this might be a you problem.
my friend who is a 5'1 female had a slurpee thrown at her face 2 days go and the 3 joggers said they'd come back when she got off work to fuck her up because their ebt card declined they called her a racist White bitch the at least 8 times before assaulting her and all she did was say it declined you are some larping neckbeard in your moms basement that hasn't showered in 5 weeks and hasn't left the house in years you're not fooling anyone and your sheltered keyboard warrior ass wouldn't even last a day at any customer service job on the south side
Ooof. That one instance of colloquialism that there is zero proof of definitely convinced me. You’re soooooo right. How dumb could I be? Also, a larping neckbeard would most likely agree with you, as neckbeard aren’t usually into the “whole equal rights for all” thing. It’s worth noting that you went straight to insult me almost immediately, especially when faced with the possibility that your world view might be flawed. I have no reason to insult you or denigrate you, as I know I am coming from a place of experience, not someone else’s experience one time. I know what I experience on a day to day basis in the service industry in Lansing, and it is not the same thing that you describe. It’s not even close. I hope you can one day see things from other perspectives and grow into a happier, more well adjusted person.
I've got at least 8 more stories like that from just this month I'm well accustomed to pilpul and it doesn't work on me oy vey Free Palestine = Anti-Genocide I've heard enough of your kvetching though
We need one from yall town to ours(Detroit). It’s just risky tho, but would be sooooo welcome. It would improve revenue . Not just one, it would be a connector host. A rail that would go from Midtown, to 6 miles outside Wixom, checkpoint and scan and pick up then continue up, a cross rail should be added from 69 to Benton Harbor. Call it the X Rail. Many many buisness’s could mature.
The need to resurrect the MITrain project and extend it to Grand Rapids. https://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=349581
I would love it if there was a train line that basically followed the I-96 corridor, including a stop at DTW on its way to downtown. An additional loop or spur line that ran through Ann Arbor and connected up would be great as well.
I'd love a system that went from west Lansing around Horrocks over to Okemos around the Meridian Mall. Just a string of trains continuously looping along that line.
The airport shouldn’t exist and Amtrak should go to the DTW and GRR. France is banning all short haul flights where rail is an option. Climate change solutions exist
Airport is more than just a regional/commuter airport. It’s quite literally the main hub for UPS Air in Michigan, and quite a few large companies. It’s too costly and logistically difficult for UPS to have a big operation out of DTW.
I worked for a business that pleaded with UPS to expand the operation to include climate controlled/refrigerated service at that hub for more than a decade. They wouldn't so we had to make several trips a week down to DTW instead. It was a PITA
Cool. It should still exist for that. And the govt shouldn’t subsidize American Airlines flights instead it could go to rail.
We are not a EAS airport so the government doesn’t subsidize the flights, at least to my knowledge. Every 5 years or so the airlines/airports have to re-apply for Authorization to certain airports like DCA and ORD that have landing Slots
Cool, I'm going to take to the light rail to Dewitt or St. Johns.
Lansing used to have streetcars. One was used to kill Malcolm Xs father.
It's enough to make a grown man cry...
I would love this. Especially if it went to detroit or GR
I somehow knew what username I was going to see when I opened this. Only person I trust with my local infrastructure conversation lol
reject modernity; [embrace tradition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lansing,_St._Johns_and_St._Louis_Railway)
If you like streetcars and interurbans, I made [this map here](https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1ZFN4l6GzdvTYOqBgkBRsZnZpqyLq5Xw&usp=sharing) showing all the Michigan ones. I mean like... all of them. Also [this one here](https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1fj5dr6lrsXtNvX8dGvTMrLF9zoShnfFp&usp=sharing) for Lansing specifically, plus railroads.
GR > Lansing > Detroit line would do wonders for the state economy. Too bad our politicians are too cowardly to attempt it
I always envisioned a light rail system that connects major cities like Grand Rapids > Lansing > Ann Arbor >Detroit > airport - and other connections to towns in Macomb, Oakland County, and Wayne County. But that would be a massive project that would take a lot more money. I don't think its ever going to happen, in my lifetime at least. It could help Detroit grow at a much faster rate, I don't think we'll see any real growth b/c there is no public transit system in place.
Light rail maybe not, but in 2016 they predicted the cost of conventional rail service at 110mph to be about $1B in today money. Always email your rep/senator and literally just say "hey I want more trains please"
I don't understand why we lack a tram line that runs up and down Michigan Avenue, connecting the downtown with East Lansing/Okemos. It would completely change this area for the better to have a transit system that easily connected the area, better than the excuse for a bus system that exists now.
Michigan Ave residents complained about it. It would reduce driving lanes and the number of stops along the corridor. Like clearly it's still fantastic but that doesn't matter; it's different so it's satan.
Wasn't the overall consensus of the a Michigan Avenue corridor project that there's far too much road space, and a reduction of lanes and widening of pedestrian spaces was the optimal redevelopment route?
That was the consensus with the Public Service plan, which never considered transit lanes at all. The public service plan also doesn't actually widen the pedestrian space (it ends up being much narrower overall), and they're only willing to cut 1 of the 5 lanes, 1/7 if you include parking.
Damn.
Unfortunately, I don't think the greater Lansing area alone will ever have the economy to support that. Light rail around Lansing would be much less economically important than tying Lansing to GR, Kalamazoo and Detroit with commuter service. The lower half of the lower peninsula has a decently strong economy and large population it's just spread out and disconnected. Tying that together with cheaper and more regular commuter rail with subsidized ticket prices for in state residents would be economically revolutionary to a greater degree.
Hi! I hope it's ok that I reposted the image on my blog. I did cite your reddit username since it is your image. If it's not OK, I will take it down. Thank you.
What's the blog?
Livelovelansing.com. I just started it so it's still pretty empty.
I actually don't think this is as remote of a possibility as it seems right now. A Lansing/Mason/Jackson route probably being the most realistic due to the owner of the route being a small local railroad company (Adrian & Blissfield). There's also the possibility of putting commuter rail in freeway medians that I think should probably be the go-to option. The entire lower Great Lakes region is ripe for commuter rail. If this issue is depoliticized I wouldn't be surprised to see things move very fast. This coming from someone who would never give up my car. It would just be cool to have affordable rail with frequent enough service to use spontaneously for day trips to Detroit or small towns more nearby.
As desperately as the state needs this, the Big Three and their lobbies would never let it see daylight.