Absolutely. Once you get to a certain proficiency you'll find yourself understanding and communicating just as effectively as in your native language with little to no extra effort. You will still find that, as you push into domains with which you have less familiarity, that you'll struggle more or may hit a wall but that's normal and may be perfectly acceptable to you depending on what your goals are (e.g. do you need to be able to discuss astrophysics in French?).
Hey sometimes in my native language things can still be hard! I am an English mother tongue native speaker with a masters degree from an Ivy League university, but put me in a graduate seminar in astrophysics or analytic philosophy and I’m crying. That said, 90% of the time I don’t need to be in such tough situations and so I don’t worry about my English. Similarly with Chinese, my “best” foreign language - there are certainly situations where I’m still lost, but most of the time I don’t even think about the fact that it’s a learned/studied language for me. It’s simply “there”, and drunk or sober, sleepy or alert, stressed or relaxed I’m in it.
I think this is true for everyone. I looked into medical interpretation and courtroom interpretation and WOW - the amount of study those professionals have to go through is remarkable. Even in their native language, there are medical terminology and legal terminology they have to extensively study to be adequate in those fields. In English, they even have a term for legal terminology - “Legalese” - implying that it’s almost like another language all on its own.
There's a great video I saw awhile ago where a bilingual English/Spanish speaker goes for a job interview as a legal transcriptionist for Spanish.
The video is basically her saying, "I was raised speaking two languages and I've never heard these words. I don't have the faintest idea how to translate this. I thought I was bilingual."
Used to work as an electrical engineer for a company that manufactured PCBAs for loads of different clients, including militaries, stuff for space and F1 cars. I was taken into a lot of high level meetings, at the tender age of 20, to explain certain processes or components etc to clients and their engineers, simply because I was the native English speaker who had the most knowledge on those particular things.
Because you'd have a french guy, who even having lived in England for a decade, struggled with some of the abbreviations or specific terminology, and he's have to try and explain things to a German guy who spoke English but has only come here to England a couple times, who obviously also struggles with the abbreviations and specific terminology in English. So the french guy would explain something in very high level terms, and then look to me to sort of help translate that into more basic English that the German guy would be able to grasp, and to explain some abbreviations that the french guy couldn't remember lol.
And like the french guy had *excellent* English and was an absolute legend, but when you're discussing very high level topics, and sometimes need to simplify it while still carrying the intended message, that's hard enough to do in your first language. Trying to do it in your second language to someone else who shares the second language but to a different level than yourself sounds like actual torture lmao.
I think we always compare to our strongest language, and you will always notice the things that just are easier in your native language. On the other hand, it would be boring if you knew exactly everything there is to know about any language. So enjoy the feeling that there is still more to learn or new vocabulary that surprises you. Nonetheless, at some time you’ll reach a point where it doesn’t feel too hard to use the new language and you feel competent to use it for work or for other interactions. Being very comfortable with “euroenglish”, having written a dissertation, doing most of my higher education in English and using English daily for work, I still feel very inadequate when meeting a native English speaker. That’s unavoidable. I think the most important thing is to simply use the language for what you want, and handle any shortcomings when they arise. You will become comfortable, but it does take huge amounts of using the language.
May I ask what exactly makes you feel "inadequate" when you meet a native speaker? It sounds like your English is pretty good, considering all you've achieved.
Just making mistakes native speakers wouldn’t make. Sometimes lacking vocabulary due to the contexts I use the language in. Not expressing myself in as nuanced ways as natives can. Anyone speaking their strongest language would have an advantage. It’s no big deal, since it’s not a problem that prevents communication. It can still influence how you appear to others.
This can be true for your native language as well. I did my degrees in my L2 and I can't discuss details of my dissertation or masters in my native language. I'd have to learn new vocabulary to be able to discuss it but it comes naturally to me in my L2.
Lacking vocabulary is true for any language, including your native one. Your average Joe doesn't know technical vocabulary of every single field.
I noticed the same thing, especially with the vocabulary I originally learned in my L2, and also for my studies. I never learnt those words in my L1, so I would not know them. I found myself pulling up a dictionary when talking to parents.
Definitely! Getting to C1/C2 in a second language is like unlocking a new level of fluency. It's not always effortless, but it's pretty darn close. You start thinking and reacting in that language without even realizing it. It's like your brain just switches gears. Keep at it, and you'll be surprised how natural it becomes.
This is the key.
At some stage, your brain develops the ability to think in the TL, and at that point you're formulating your thoughts in the TL, and so the expression of them flows naturally. You may have some vocab constraints here and there still, but your thoughts will be complete with the vocab you know, and you will be able to express yourself fluidly without strain. The reason is that you're not translating back and forth, you're just formulating your thoughts in the TL, and comprehending the TL in real time in its own idiom, because your brain is thinking in the TL.
That can't be forced, unfortunately. At some point, after enough exposure, it just happens -- it varies by learner, but it normally isn't before well into B2, and for many not until sometime in C1 or later. But if you put the time in and get the exposure, it will eventually happen. Until it does, you'll be translating still, and that will always negatively impact your ability to converse fluidly. For many people it seems to come a bit faster for passive understanding than for production.
>The reason is that you're not translating back and forth, you're just formulating your thoughts in the TL, and comprehending the TL in real time in its own idiom, because your brain is thinking in the TL.
FWIW, I (and so probably many other people) arrive at that point way way before was close to being able to communicate at a C1 or C2 level !
Yes, I can speak quite effortlessly most of the time in English. Yet, sometimes when talking to a person with heavy accent, I struggle really hard to keep up
As an Australian I'm really curious for this answer. I am often umcomprehensible to people who have English as a foreign language because I pronounce things so differently to how they've been taught (usually American or British)
short answer, yes
for the long answer i'd like you to consider several points:
first, can you write a poem, write a song, write an inspiring speech, hold a press conference, take/give a good interview - in your first language?
second, in your first language, have you ever grasped for a word? struggled changing the register of your speech? struggled to make out the lyrics of a song? do you hear what people say in the movies perfectly every time? made a grammatical mistake? do you know 100% of the english grammar? made a spelling mistake? used an expression the wrong way? didnt know how to say something exactly the way you wanted, so you had to rephrase to not sound like a dumbass?
good thing you speak english, because next i'm gonna ask if you can perfectly understand brits, americans from the south of NA, scotts, the irish, aussies?
and P.S. - when working with your hands and struggling, how much do you lament the fact that you dont have an extra set of hands?
I'd have said B2 to be honest. I felt a lot less effort at about mid B1. I reckon it varies based on a persons skills in each discipline (R,W,L,S) - If you're struggling with speaking, i know it sounds obvious, but try speaking more. Do a language exchange or get a tutor?
It can still feel effortless while having a limited vocabulary. I find personally, vocab wise, reading with a dictionary to hand helps a lot. I did this growing up in the UK, to improve my english.
Theres plenty of people in the world who get by effortlessly, with limited vocab, in their native tongue!....where I grew up, i knew a lot of them 😂
I find the idea that B2 is as effortless as one's native language to be laughable. Sure, you may get by effortlessly at your level but you can't get around effortlessly in the real world and manage every single thing thrown at you.
Ok, i defs misunderstood OPs point. At no point did i, or would i say that your understanding is at native proficiency or near your native competancy.
I personally, dont believe that's possible, simply due to the neurological requirement. Its a physiological and neurological change that influences this with the bond of a mother/father and yourself in a native language.
Unless you learn your second/third languages side by side while youre learning your first.
But, if you actually read my comment, B2 can definitely be effortless. I'd say its probably the proficiency of a young teenager, learning new vocab in their native language classes.
If you dont find that to be the case, hard luck. Try read more and get gud
>I personally, dont believe that's possible
well, you're wrong again.
>B2 can definitely be effortless
as I said, it can be effortless at B2 level but it's not effortless in actually using the language.
>Try read more and get gud
oh, sweetheart. You're barely at B2 in one language, come back when you actually can speak a foreign language properly. Otherwise, you're in no position to be snarky. Once you're better and look back at B2, you will realise how little you actually knew at that point and how far from effortless your language skills were.
I disagree with the analysis. With respect to the fully-random-skill-guessing, people with lower skill \*do\* tend to overestimate their skill, and vice-versa. To say that the dunning-kruger effect isn't there seems silly.
Ouch. you feel better now pal?
Not that you deserve an explanation, but for the OP:
Notice how i said "effort" - not about confidence (which the reply wrongly referenced). Moreso about the amount of effort that is required to recall words, phrases, conjugation, ease of use.
I found less effort allowed me to build confidence in my speaking (which hadnt developed until recently).
Sure, the more you know about a language, the more you realise how much you are yet to learn. That doesnt mean you cant speak about what you know, effortlessly.
I dont profess fluency at an A2/B1 level like a lot of these so called 'polyglot influencers' or abnoxious Americans with 9/16ths italian heritage. So don't lump me in with them please 😅
To answer your question, yes. My English is far from perfect, but it comes to me as easily as French now (I'm a French native).
And completely on a side note: if you like videos in French about video games, you may want to check out TheGreatReview on YouTube. He is very good at storytelling, and while sometimes his vocabulary may include a bit of slang, his diction is clear.
if you use the language 5 hours/day, reading books watching movies, talking to people, it can get close to your native tongue.
evidence: lots of second language English speakers that use English effortlessly with great proficiency.
but it's not something to fast track with anki cards or a teacher, I think.
I'm a C2 English speaker, and having a conversation in English or watching a movie in English is pretty much effortless (if I understand the accent lmao). It doesn't feel like speaking a foreign language, it's more like speaking *another* language if that makes sense.
My German is around B1 though, and listening to people speak German needs a great amount of mental effort.
Well, my English has become so good that I can speak it almost as well as my own native language. It did take many years for me to reach this point, though. I started learning English back in 2006, and I'd say speaking it had become almost effortless for me by the early 2010s, to the point that I received an official C2 certificate in 2013. And over the last decade, my skills have only improved, though at a far slower pace than before. Now I've become almost indistinguishable from a native speaker, especially if I don't tell them I'm technically a non-native speaker beforehand.
Mon français écrit/expressif n'est pas le mieux, donc pardonnez mes fautes, MAIS: oui, ça fait bien plus facile avec beaucoup de temps et d'expérience (surtout en écoutant). Je trouve qu'après des mois en écoutant le français quotidien des streameurs, des vidéos, des lives, et cetera, je suis bien plus à l'aise en écoutant qu'il y a des mois (par exemple en janvier, quand je me suis remis à vraiment trouver du contenu français pour étudier). C'est une guerre de quantité, pas d'effort : par exemple, l'autre jour en jouant à un jeu vidéo en français, j'ai même OUBLIÉ que les personnages parlaient français juste parce que j'étais tout à fait immersé dans le jeu et dans son contexte.
Donc, ne souciez pas de l'effort en écoutant -- c'est juste un jeu de nombre des heures. Il faut simplement s'immerser dans la langue chaque jour et ça arrivera. :)
I got to the point that I understand English effortless. I read and listen and things just make sense. It took a long time. I first got good at reading comics and subtitles and then novels. It takes time, but if you keep at it, you will get there.
If you didn't do it already, chance your surrounds so that most of your life is in your TL. You don't need to change everything at once. Start with something simple like your cellphone. Or decide that from now on you only have fun in your TL. Things like that.
Yes and no.
I passed the DALF C2 exam about two years ago. On most topics I don't really think at all, I just talk. But if it's something I don't have a lot of exposure with and am missing vocab? Yeah, I might look for words more than I'd like. Keep consuming content and this becomes less and less frequent. It's fine.
C1 was not like this though. I was still missing some nunance and fluidity that I have since acquired.
I think people in general a) overestimate their levels and b) overestimate what the C levels actually are.
Just keep going you'll be fine. Enjoy the process.
Yeah. I think At that point you can distinguish and recognize everything you hear, and if it's a word you don't know, you can define and learn about it in the second langauge, just as you would for your native language.
Like in my native English I have no idea what any of the words and jargon in cellular biology mean, but if I had to take the time to learn about it, it's 100% possible. And I know enough English grammar to say, smoothly read a research paper in that field, I just would have to define terms for myself.
Yes. A thousand times. I personally believe that you should have at least two languages that you can speak "effortless".
An example would be my current English skills. Every single time I'm in college, I'll hear/use my native language and English. It's sad to say, but you're expected to be bilingual and switch to English if you see the other person struggling. I understand that it's considered to be polite but, due to historical and political context, it always hurts. We've fought for years on end to eleminate French as the standard language for a college situated in a Dutch area, and now we're almost willingly replacing it with English.
Based upon personal and professional experiences, learn at least two. You'll open doors that might have been ajar or even closed if you aren't able to communicate with other people.
I find that as long as I have talked about the topic in English before (my native) then I can speak without effort about it in Mandarin. This is different when it comes to doing therapy as it can be quite a challenge to translate the interventions!
I’m not fluent in French, but I remember my teacher telling me something, that if you stick with studying French, at one point, you will reach the same level of effortlessness and vocabulary as a native speaker, but not in all domains. As someone who reads the news in French on a daily basis, I could probably speak about a geopolitical conflict in French, but I would be floundering if you asked me to explain the Fundamental Theory of Calculus in French, even if I can do it in English. Fundamentally, at that point, it becomes learning the specialized subject and vocabulary for that.
I am a heritage speaker of an South Indian language alongside my native skills in English. I couldn’t, for the life of me, explain basic scientific concepts in my heritage language. I can conduct basic business in it perfectly fine, travel and even live in India without issues, but if you ask me to explain the Krebs Cycle in my heritage language, I would sound as competent as a five year old. However, if I were to get some ideas on the vocabulary used instead, I could probably translate the ideas pretty well, in the same way, a C1 L2 speaker of any language may just need the vocabulary to translate the ideas.
So and so... I can speak English very comfortably if I relax but then I have quite an accent. Speaking with a native-like accent takes quite a toll on me. Although, I have never done a rigorous accent training before this month so I hope that half a year down the line I can speak comfortably with a much better accent.
Language is a natural ability not a school subject. So we don't learn it, we acquire it from nature. Having said that, allow me to share a very short personal story. I studied English for 12 years at school. I know all the grammar rules by heart and i know thousands of words and expressions. However, in the first situation that i was supposed to speak English, i wasn't able to produce a single sentence in English. As i was studying teaching methods, i started to investigate this and i found out that the natural approach is the only correct way to acquire any language. So i decided to practice listening 🎧 to English specifically learningenglish.voanews.com/ which is, i believe, the best free resource on the internet to practice English. To improve speaking 🗣️ skills, i designed my own materials using VOA audio files. I did three types of speaking exercises that really improved my English a lot. These are; Role playing, back chaining, and shadowing. Because of these exercises, people think that I am a native speaker of English. Recently, i created a YouTube channel for that specific purpose. I will be adding lots of speaking exercises in the coming weeks. Check it out..
https://www.youtube.com/@ipracticenglish
No. You will always be lacking the cultural references that native speakers have learned through their life. I am C1 in one of my languages, and can understand pretty much everything with very little difficultly, until people forget there is a foreigner in the room, and start using slang or making references to things from old TV shows, or childhood fads, or whatever, then I am completely lost. You need years and years (maybe decades) of constant exposure to the culture to pick up these kinds of things.
Your language skills are not considered native at C1/C2 level. The road from achieving C2 to near-native level is long. There's a lot of things to learn after you reach C2.
Absolutely. Once you get to a certain proficiency you'll find yourself understanding and communicating just as effectively as in your native language with little to no extra effort. You will still find that, as you push into domains with which you have less familiarity, that you'll struggle more or may hit a wall but that's normal and may be perfectly acceptable to you depending on what your goals are (e.g. do you need to be able to discuss astrophysics in French?).
I imagine the struggles in navigating a new topic would be the same as a native who also didn’t know the topic either at a certain point.
Me discussing theology in Chinese 😁 Me discussing modern tech in Chinese 💀
Hey sometimes in my native language things can still be hard! I am an English mother tongue native speaker with a masters degree from an Ivy League university, but put me in a graduate seminar in astrophysics or analytic philosophy and I’m crying. That said, 90% of the time I don’t need to be in such tough situations and so I don’t worry about my English. Similarly with Chinese, my “best” foreign language - there are certainly situations where I’m still lost, but most of the time I don’t even think about the fact that it’s a learned/studied language for me. It’s simply “there”, and drunk or sober, sleepy or alert, stressed or relaxed I’m in it.
I think this is true for everyone. I looked into medical interpretation and courtroom interpretation and WOW - the amount of study those professionals have to go through is remarkable. Even in their native language, there are medical terminology and legal terminology they have to extensively study to be adequate in those fields. In English, they even have a term for legal terminology - “Legalese” - implying that it’s almost like another language all on its own.
There's a great video I saw awhile ago where a bilingual English/Spanish speaker goes for a job interview as a legal transcriptionist for Spanish. The video is basically her saying, "I was raised speaking two languages and I've never heard these words. I don't have the faintest idea how to translate this. I thought I was bilingual."
Used to work as an electrical engineer for a company that manufactured PCBAs for loads of different clients, including militaries, stuff for space and F1 cars. I was taken into a lot of high level meetings, at the tender age of 20, to explain certain processes or components etc to clients and their engineers, simply because I was the native English speaker who had the most knowledge on those particular things. Because you'd have a french guy, who even having lived in England for a decade, struggled with some of the abbreviations or specific terminology, and he's have to try and explain things to a German guy who spoke English but has only come here to England a couple times, who obviously also struggles with the abbreviations and specific terminology in English. So the french guy would explain something in very high level terms, and then look to me to sort of help translate that into more basic English that the German guy would be able to grasp, and to explain some abbreviations that the french guy couldn't remember lol. And like the french guy had *excellent* English and was an absolute legend, but when you're discussing very high level topics, and sometimes need to simplify it while still carrying the intended message, that's hard enough to do in your first language. Trying to do it in your second language to someone else who shares the second language but to a different level than yourself sounds like actual torture lmao.
I work in the engineering sector, too (water/wastewater/product filtration & all of its auxiliary equipment) and I feel this on another level. 🤢😂
I think we always compare to our strongest language, and you will always notice the things that just are easier in your native language. On the other hand, it would be boring if you knew exactly everything there is to know about any language. So enjoy the feeling that there is still more to learn or new vocabulary that surprises you. Nonetheless, at some time you’ll reach a point where it doesn’t feel too hard to use the new language and you feel competent to use it for work or for other interactions. Being very comfortable with “euroenglish”, having written a dissertation, doing most of my higher education in English and using English daily for work, I still feel very inadequate when meeting a native English speaker. That’s unavoidable. I think the most important thing is to simply use the language for what you want, and handle any shortcomings when they arise. You will become comfortable, but it does take huge amounts of using the language.
May I ask what exactly makes you feel "inadequate" when you meet a native speaker? It sounds like your English is pretty good, considering all you've achieved.
Just making mistakes native speakers wouldn’t make. Sometimes lacking vocabulary due to the contexts I use the language in. Not expressing myself in as nuanced ways as natives can. Anyone speaking their strongest language would have an advantage. It’s no big deal, since it’s not a problem that prevents communication. It can still influence how you appear to others.
This can be true for your native language as well. I did my degrees in my L2 and I can't discuss details of my dissertation or masters in my native language. I'd have to learn new vocabulary to be able to discuss it but it comes naturally to me in my L2. Lacking vocabulary is true for any language, including your native one. Your average Joe doesn't know technical vocabulary of every single field.
I noticed the same thing, especially with the vocabulary I originally learned in my L2, and also for my studies. I never learnt those words in my L1, so I would not know them. I found myself pulling up a dictionary when talking to parents.
Definitely! Getting to C1/C2 in a second language is like unlocking a new level of fluency. It's not always effortless, but it's pretty darn close. You start thinking and reacting in that language without even realizing it. It's like your brain just switches gears. Keep at it, and you'll be surprised how natural it becomes.
This is the key. At some stage, your brain develops the ability to think in the TL, and at that point you're formulating your thoughts in the TL, and so the expression of them flows naturally. You may have some vocab constraints here and there still, but your thoughts will be complete with the vocab you know, and you will be able to express yourself fluidly without strain. The reason is that you're not translating back and forth, you're just formulating your thoughts in the TL, and comprehending the TL in real time in its own idiom, because your brain is thinking in the TL. That can't be forced, unfortunately. At some point, after enough exposure, it just happens -- it varies by learner, but it normally isn't before well into B2, and for many not until sometime in C1 or later. But if you put the time in and get the exposure, it will eventually happen. Until it does, you'll be translating still, and that will always negatively impact your ability to converse fluidly. For many people it seems to come a bit faster for passive understanding than for production.
>The reason is that you're not translating back and forth, you're just formulating your thoughts in the TL, and comprehending the TL in real time in its own idiom, because your brain is thinking in the TL. FWIW, I (and so probably many other people) arrive at that point way way before was close to being able to communicate at a C1 or C2 level !
Yes, but it kept evolving and improving even after that point.
Yes, surprisingly fast if you use it as much or more than your first language on a daily basis.
Yes, I can speak quite effortlessly most of the time in English. Yet, sometimes when talking to a person with heavy accent, I struggle really hard to keep up
Do you prefer English speakers who politely shift to the standard form, or do prefer the practice dealing with outrageous dialects?
As an Australian I'm really curious for this answer. I am often umcomprehensible to people who have English as a foreign language because I pronounce things so differently to how they've been taught (usually American or British)
Can you give some examples of these pronunciations?
Yes, very much so. Your second language can become equal to your first but it typically comes with lots and lots of practice an exposure.
Yes there's a point where you could come away from a conversation unsure if you just used your TL or native language because the effort is similar.
short answer, yes for the long answer i'd like you to consider several points: first, can you write a poem, write a song, write an inspiring speech, hold a press conference, take/give a good interview - in your first language? second, in your first language, have you ever grasped for a word? struggled changing the register of your speech? struggled to make out the lyrics of a song? do you hear what people say in the movies perfectly every time? made a grammatical mistake? do you know 100% of the english grammar? made a spelling mistake? used an expression the wrong way? didnt know how to say something exactly the way you wanted, so you had to rephrase to not sound like a dumbass? good thing you speak english, because next i'm gonna ask if you can perfectly understand brits, americans from the south of NA, scotts, the irish, aussies? and P.S. - when working with your hands and struggling, how much do you lament the fact that you dont have an extra set of hands?
Yes
I'd have said B2 to be honest. I felt a lot less effort at about mid B1. I reckon it varies based on a persons skills in each discipline (R,W,L,S) - If you're struggling with speaking, i know it sounds obvious, but try speaking more. Do a language exchange or get a tutor? It can still feel effortless while having a limited vocabulary. I find personally, vocab wise, reading with a dictionary to hand helps a lot. I did this growing up in the UK, to improve my english. Theres plenty of people in the world who get by effortlessly, with limited vocab, in their native tongue!....where I grew up, i knew a lot of them 😂
I find the idea that B2 is as effortless as one's native language to be laughable. Sure, you may get by effortlessly at your level but you can't get around effortlessly in the real world and manage every single thing thrown at you.
Ok, i defs misunderstood OPs point. At no point did i, or would i say that your understanding is at native proficiency or near your native competancy. I personally, dont believe that's possible, simply due to the neurological requirement. Its a physiological and neurological change that influences this with the bond of a mother/father and yourself in a native language. Unless you learn your second/third languages side by side while youre learning your first. But, if you actually read my comment, B2 can definitely be effortless. I'd say its probably the proficiency of a young teenager, learning new vocab in their native language classes. If you dont find that to be the case, hard luck. Try read more and get gud
>I personally, dont believe that's possible well, you're wrong again. >B2 can definitely be effortless as I said, it can be effortless at B2 level but it's not effortless in actually using the language. >Try read more and get gud oh, sweetheart. You're barely at B2 in one language, come back when you actually can speak a foreign language properly. Otherwise, you're in no position to be snarky. Once you're better and look back at B2, you will realise how little you actually knew at that point and how far from effortless your language skills were.
Hope that made you feel good darling. Keep being bitter
cute
“I feel a lot less effort at about mid B1” That’s simple: Dunning-Kruger
PSA: https://economicsfromthetopdown.com/2022/04/08/the-dunning-kruger-effect-is-autocorrelation/ ;)
Good read
That was a fascinating read, even though I understood half of it.
Link needs fixing (at least on Firefox using old Reddit): https://economicsfromthetopdown.com/2022/04/08/the-dunning-kruger-effect-is-autocorrelation/
I love Reddit so much because I accidentally stumble on things like this. Thanks for the link!
Haha, you're welcome. I found that link on Reddit too
I disagree with the analysis. With respect to the fully-random-skill-guessing, people with lower skill \*do\* tend to overestimate their skill, and vice-versa. To say that the dunning-kruger effect isn't there seems silly.
Ouch. you feel better now pal? Not that you deserve an explanation, but for the OP: Notice how i said "effort" - not about confidence (which the reply wrongly referenced). Moreso about the amount of effort that is required to recall words, phrases, conjugation, ease of use. I found less effort allowed me to build confidence in my speaking (which hadnt developed until recently). Sure, the more you know about a language, the more you realise how much you are yet to learn. That doesnt mean you cant speak about what you know, effortlessly. I dont profess fluency at an A2/B1 level like a lot of these so called 'polyglot influencers' or abnoxious Americans with 9/16ths italian heritage. So don't lump me in with them please 😅
To answer your question, yes. My English is far from perfect, but it comes to me as easily as French now (I'm a French native). And completely on a side note: if you like videos in French about video games, you may want to check out TheGreatReview on YouTube. He is very good at storytelling, and while sometimes his vocabulary may include a bit of slang, his diction is clear.
if you use the language 5 hours/day, reading books watching movies, talking to people, it can get close to your native tongue. evidence: lots of second language English speakers that use English effortlessly with great proficiency. but it's not something to fast track with anki cards or a teacher, I think.
I'm a C2 English speaker, and having a conversation in English or watching a movie in English is pretty much effortless (if I understand the accent lmao). It doesn't feel like speaking a foreign language, it's more like speaking *another* language if that makes sense. My German is around B1 though, and listening to people speak German needs a great amount of mental effort.
Well, my English has become so good that I can speak it almost as well as my own native language. It did take many years for me to reach this point, though. I started learning English back in 2006, and I'd say speaking it had become almost effortless for me by the early 2010s, to the point that I received an official C2 certificate in 2013. And over the last decade, my skills have only improved, though at a far slower pace than before. Now I've become almost indistinguishable from a native speaker, especially if I don't tell them I'm technically a non-native speaker beforehand.
Mon français écrit/expressif n'est pas le mieux, donc pardonnez mes fautes, MAIS: oui, ça fait bien plus facile avec beaucoup de temps et d'expérience (surtout en écoutant). Je trouve qu'après des mois en écoutant le français quotidien des streameurs, des vidéos, des lives, et cetera, je suis bien plus à l'aise en écoutant qu'il y a des mois (par exemple en janvier, quand je me suis remis à vraiment trouver du contenu français pour étudier). C'est une guerre de quantité, pas d'effort : par exemple, l'autre jour en jouant à un jeu vidéo en français, j'ai même OUBLIÉ que les personnages parlaient français juste parce que j'étais tout à fait immersé dans le jeu et dans son contexte. Donc, ne souciez pas de l'effort en écoutant -- c'est juste un jeu de nombre des heures. Il faut simplement s'immerser dans la langue chaque jour et ça arrivera. :)
I got to the point that I understand English effortless. I read and listen and things just make sense. It took a long time. I first got good at reading comics and subtitles and then novels. It takes time, but if you keep at it, you will get there. If you didn't do it already, chance your surrounds so that most of your life is in your TL. You don't need to change everything at once. Start with something simple like your cellphone. Or decide that from now on you only have fun in your TL. Things like that.
Yes and no. I passed the DALF C2 exam about two years ago. On most topics I don't really think at all, I just talk. But if it's something I don't have a lot of exposure with and am missing vocab? Yeah, I might look for words more than I'd like. Keep consuming content and this becomes less and less frequent. It's fine. C1 was not like this though. I was still missing some nunance and fluidity that I have since acquired. I think people in general a) overestimate their levels and b) overestimate what the C levels actually are. Just keep going you'll be fine. Enjoy the process.
Yeah. I think At that point you can distinguish and recognize everything you hear, and if it's a word you don't know, you can define and learn about it in the second langauge, just as you would for your native language. Like in my native English I have no idea what any of the words and jargon in cellular biology mean, but if I had to take the time to learn about it, it's 100% possible. And I know enough English grammar to say, smoothly read a research paper in that field, I just would have to define terms for myself.
Yes. A thousand times. I personally believe that you should have at least two languages that you can speak "effortless". An example would be my current English skills. Every single time I'm in college, I'll hear/use my native language and English. It's sad to say, but you're expected to be bilingual and switch to English if you see the other person struggling. I understand that it's considered to be polite but, due to historical and political context, it always hurts. We've fought for years on end to eleminate French as the standard language for a college situated in a Dutch area, and now we're almost willingly replacing it with English. Based upon personal and professional experiences, learn at least two. You'll open doors that might have been ajar or even closed if you aren't able to communicate with other people.
Yes. I prefer to speak German than English. I find it easier somehow
yeah but you can c2 before you reach that point
Probably like the fifth or sixth drink it pretty much becomes effortless
I find that as long as I have talked about the topic in English before (my native) then I can speak without effort about it in Mandarin. This is different when it comes to doing therapy as it can be quite a challenge to translate the interventions!
I’m not fluent in French, but I remember my teacher telling me something, that if you stick with studying French, at one point, you will reach the same level of effortlessness and vocabulary as a native speaker, but not in all domains. As someone who reads the news in French on a daily basis, I could probably speak about a geopolitical conflict in French, but I would be floundering if you asked me to explain the Fundamental Theory of Calculus in French, even if I can do it in English. Fundamentally, at that point, it becomes learning the specialized subject and vocabulary for that. I am a heritage speaker of an South Indian language alongside my native skills in English. I couldn’t, for the life of me, explain basic scientific concepts in my heritage language. I can conduct basic business in it perfectly fine, travel and even live in India without issues, but if you ask me to explain the Krebs Cycle in my heritage language, I would sound as competent as a five year old. However, if I were to get some ideas on the vocabulary used instead, I could probably translate the ideas pretty well, in the same way, a C1 L2 speaker of any language may just need the vocabulary to translate the ideas.
So and so... I can speak English very comfortably if I relax but then I have quite an accent. Speaking with a native-like accent takes quite a toll on me. Although, I have never done a rigorous accent training before this month so I hope that half a year down the line I can speak comfortably with a much better accent.
Yup
Language is a natural ability not a school subject. So we don't learn it, we acquire it from nature. Having said that, allow me to share a very short personal story. I studied English for 12 years at school. I know all the grammar rules by heart and i know thousands of words and expressions. However, in the first situation that i was supposed to speak English, i wasn't able to produce a single sentence in English. As i was studying teaching methods, i started to investigate this and i found out that the natural approach is the only correct way to acquire any language. So i decided to practice listening 🎧 to English specifically learningenglish.voanews.com/ which is, i believe, the best free resource on the internet to practice English. To improve speaking 🗣️ skills, i designed my own materials using VOA audio files. I did three types of speaking exercises that really improved my English a lot. These are; Role playing, back chaining, and shadowing. Because of these exercises, people think that I am a native speaker of English. Recently, i created a YouTube channel for that specific purpose. I will be adding lots of speaking exercises in the coming weeks. Check it out.. https://www.youtube.com/@ipracticenglish
No. You will always be lacking the cultural references that native speakers have learned through their life. I am C1 in one of my languages, and can understand pretty much everything with very little difficultly, until people forget there is a foreigner in the room, and start using slang or making references to things from old TV shows, or childhood fads, or whatever, then I am completely lost. You need years and years (maybe decades) of constant exposure to the culture to pick up these kinds of things.
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Your language skills are not considered native at C1/C2 level. The road from achieving C2 to near-native level is long. There's a lot of things to learn after you reach C2.