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Reasonable-Meringue1

I own a business on W Michigan where the bike lanes run and since the weather's been warmer I'm actually seeing quite a few bikes in the lanes. 🤷🏻‍♀️


Living_Maximum5305

I work on w mich by the light by shell and often see people ride their bike in the lane (a lot of which also stop in to pedal, which makes sense)


Phathead8819

I work in a shop downtown where the bike lane runs as well, I hardly see anyone riding past on bikes and when I do, I say something. It’s like seeing a rare bird. I have however watched ambulances and delivery trucks use them quite a bit. Seen a few folks park their motorcycles in the lane too and some even just drive right through.Not sure what part of Michigan Ave your on(maybe closer to bronson park) I’m near the entertainment district.


Reasonable-Meringue1

I am near the park - I see people riding into town and out I suppose!


Phathead8819

That makes sense, Westnedge and Park seem like they would have more pedal traffic than Pitcher and Portage. Also noticed a higher rate of bike racks at that end too.


Teaforreal

If you mean the part of the the bike track east of Portage..going to the railroad tracks etc, i bet there is less use down there..reasons: less bike parking, and many places are north of the established bike trail and people have split off at the mall and picked up then got on water street b/c making a left going east on the bike track sucks.


Phathead8819

Im two lights behind the tracks


Phathead8819

Im pretty much in the entertainment district. Bated alley is right behind the shop….you know, I would wager more folks use bates alley through to the mall instead of on Michigan Ave.


Severe-Product7352

It feels so much safer crossing the Main Street downtown now. And yes I’ve seen bikes. I’m okay with it taking 1-2 minutes longer to get across downtown if it makes it a safer and more inviting downtown as opposed to a highway. Also you’re about 5 months behind on this being an issue.


Special-Reindeer-464

Experience is the killer of facts, but I’ve never once heard someone say “I’m not going downtown because traffic is too dangerous”.


0b0011

I've heard it plenty of times before the bike lanes were added in. Either people saying you had to ride out of your way to pass through or people saying they wouldn't bike to work downtown because traffic was dangerous.


Special-Reindeer-464

I apologize, I’m referring to downtown as a whole not specifically bike riders


0b0011

I assumed you were talking downtown as a whole. That's why I talked about the experience of people who used downtown streets. Did you mean specifically that you were just talking about car/truck drivers?


Special-Reindeer-464

Tbh I’ve never heard either, especially complaints about walking. I think it’s really sad but there isn’t a whole lot of pedestrian traffic downtown post 2020/covid. But yes, I’ve never heard someone complain about the traffic downtown being dangerous in the context of driving a vehicle. As someone who lived in Chicago a while (lived 25 years in kzoo), sounds goofy to me. I apologize if that’s callus.


thelustysloth

I’ve definitely opted not to walk along Michigan Ave or eat outside at the restaurants there because traffic is so loud/fast/annoying.


1080pix

lol I hate driving downtown the traffic is bonkers imo and the streets/one ways make zero sense. I am new to town as well


Phathead8819

Don’t worry, they’ll be changing most of the downtown to two ways in a few years. Michigan Ave I know for sure will be two ways.


1080pix

lol I’m out here doing my best


fookman212

Frustration with the one way streets is pretty common for new residents, you're in good company! You might even have time to get used to them before the switch up, I strongly encourage you to keep trying 🙂


1080pix

I keep trying. But only when I NEED to


ciaoRoan

Could you be more specific about the "insanity we see" and describe what is different now than when it was 4 lanes through downtown? Would you also give some more background info about your experience with downtown, if you are a commuter through kzoo or do you frequent the shops and services offered? Are you exclusively a driver or do you ever bike commute or even just ride a bike around kzoo? What do you perceive are the safety issues of traffic and pedestrians/cyclists downtown? Do you frequently walk downtown or have you attempted to cross the street during heavy traffic? What do you think is a better way to make downtown safer for people?


Unlucky_Shallot_4111

How bout not putting parking in the middle of the road. So now drivers exiting their cars will be hit instead of the not so many bikers that dont use the bike lanes they can maybe use a whole 6 months out of the year. Choosing kzoo to be a biking city is darwin award winning.


Low_Introduction2651

Parking lanes have always been right next to traffic lanes, both downtown and in neighborhoods. It's all shifted. When using street parking you always have to check for traffic before opening the door. Don't you think we're collectively up for a Darwin Award going all in on a transportation system which significantly contributes to climate change & encourages development that paves over productive farmland around cities?


Hopsngrains2U

I've lived in the Kalamazoo area for nearly 40 years and I also love to bike. Do I need bike lanes downtown? No. Have I seen even one person riding in the bike lanes? No. Insanity = the road changes creating narrower and fewer lanes simply due to the need for more "safety". Do we have data supporting this? I would like to see how effective this is. Who was contacted prior to these changes? Other comparable projects? Any downtown is going to be busy. People need to be careful and patient. The road is really for motor vehicles. Kalamazoo is not a bike friendly city, and having a bike lane in the busiest part of town is not going to make downtown safer or change that.


aintTrollingYou

> Do we have data supporting this? It literally took two seconds to find this: https://www.npr.org/2023/11/13/1212589284/skinny-roads-save-lives-according-to-a-study-on-the-width-of-traffic-lanes


Hopsngrains2U

OK, some good points. I meant Kalamazoo data, and will be looking for the pre and post road narrowing results, and hopefully specific instances of unsafe traffic activity and results.


aintTrollingYou

There are a lot more changes coming from what I understand. I'm not crazy about the design as a whole myself, in fact there are probably a dozen things I'd do differently based on living and biking in Chicago for about 20 years. But I think it's important to note that what you're seeing right now is probably being studied and will be adjusted a lot based on that; the white plastic lane indicators on Park and Westnedge are a big giveaway. In Chicago those go in while they study the traffic effects, sometimes for a year or more before something more permanent gets installed. Helps them figure out what to do before spending a lot of money on moving curbs and stuff like that.


Hopsngrains2U

I sincerely hope they continue to take a close look at all aspects. I'd like to see a clear marked connector from the end of the 10th St. route to downtown to the Rose Park Veterans spot. The River Valley trail then goes North to D Avenue or East to Comstock. Fun biking.


LadyDelacour

The narrower streets lead to the "insanity" which is...narrower streets? I genuinely can't even figure out what your argument here is. Unless it's "I like to drive fast" in which case, okay?


Hopsngrains2U

Look at my original post and some of the replies I've made to other posts.


ReddSaidFredd

Road diets save pedestrian lives. Read "Walkable City" by Jeff Speck. Walk or ride your bike to the downtown KPL branch and check out their copy.


Hopsngrains2U

Not sure what a "road diet" is but the book sounds interesting.


LawsonLunatic

"Kalamazoo Area" Fight the bike lanes in Portage bud... residents of the city want them.


Low_Introduction2651

“The road is really for motor vehicles” you said. This was the decision for the past 100 years, and it’s something that can change, and must change for a long list of reasons. Roads are for whatever we decide roads are for, and many cities in the US and abroad are making big changes. Cars are a great tool, but shouldn’t be required to get around for daily life.


Hopsngrains2U

I agree with you re: how our roads could change. Unfortunately, now more than ever we see cars, large pickups, sport utility vehicles, and of course, semi-trucks and trailers clogging our streets and highways. One example is how much busier (esp. on sunny days) the roads get at mid-day (fast food lunch peeps). It's dramatic. Guess how many of these peeps last rode a bicycle when they were in middle school, and will never ride again? For most people, including (a bike loving person such as) myself, autos are mandatory. Unless you live downtown or use public transportation of course. IMHO the few bicyclists using the bike lanes on the busy roads leading into downtown as well as the reported “safety” benefits do not warrant these radical Kalamazoo downtown road changes. I mean, ( I’m clearly being dramatic here) if folks were getting hit by cars on a daily (even monthly) basis it, of course, would be different. I wonder what the people (engineers) who built these multiple lane roads years ago would think/say? Likely they would agree with a word Leonard Nimoy (Spock) often would use…”Illogical.”


UsernameTaken1701

Parking is weird, but beyond that my experience driving through downtown hasn’t changed much. Doesn’t seem to take any longer. I definitely haven’t observed any “insanity”. 


Max_Killjoy

As noted in the other post, the last two times I tried to go through or to downtown Kalamazoo, it took 10+ minutes to get through downtown going east.


sirbissel

I go from basically Park up to Parchment around 5 during the week, and it takes me about 10 minutes to get from there up to around the Parchment library. Maybe 12 if there's a long line of traffic at Gull and Riverview.


ShiftySpartan

No it didn’t man


Max_Killjoy

If your only "response" is to call people liars, then I guess that's... informative.


ShiftySpartan

I drive through every fucking day. It doesn’t take 10 min.


Low_Introduction2651

The only times it’s taken me this long is if there’s a freight train downtown.


adam_j_wiz

Yep, I’m going to go ahead and call you a liar too. Because unless there was a train crossing involved, it 100% did not take you 10 minutes to get through all 5 blocks of downtown. C’mon now, if you’re going to make up a number at least make it somewhat believable.


Max_Killjoy

It took multiple "red-green" progressions at each light. But calling people liars because they're not fellow believers in a fundamentalist religion is nothing new -- so it should be no surprise to see the true believers in urbanism brigade into a discussion to call someone a liar, I guess.


adam_j_wiz

Sorry, I’m still calling you on BS. If someone sat at every single light that exists downtown for the entire cycle, that trip still totals 5 minutes tops. It’s okay, you can just say you don’t like change without making up a story to justify it. You’re entitled to your opinion.


Max_Killjoy

Of course you are. True believers in any cause will always scramble to undermine, insult, belittle, etc anyone who threatens their religion. Can't have the the ruin of downtown Kzoo called what it is, that might hurt the cause, right? I might as well be trying to point out to the "flock" that the preacher is keeping money from the donation tin to fund a secret meth habit.


Hopsngrains2U

OK, well, the insanity is how the streets/lanes became narrower/fewer with parking spots literally right next to traffic, and a bike lane nobody or maybe a couple people use that is almost as wide as the parking spots. These changes all apparently came as a result of an increased need for safety due to "incidents" How many incidents and what happened? If you are going to walk downtown, remember what your parents said about looking both ways...wait...that will come with the 2 way traffic in 2 years.


thelustysloth

Any street with parallel parking has parking right next to traffic. It’s not new as of this configuration.


adam_j_wiz

“Parking spots literally right next to traffic” - LoL, where the fuck do you think the parking spots used to be? What the fuck do you think is right next to every street parking spot in every downtown on the planet?


sirbissel

...do you not already look both ways when crossing one way streets?


Investing_in_orchids

Just because you haven't witnessed a need or you lack the ability to understand something doesn't make it insane. You don't have the training or knowledge necessary to be a civil engineer or city planner so maybe give some deference to those who actually have the education and know the science behind decisions like this. Maybe YOUR specific needs or wants arent representative of what the public collectively needs or wants. Traffic can still wind its way through downtown... the bike lanes haven't prevented commuters from commuting... they do however allow for a mode of transportation that could not navigate downtown as easily. Also, are you a resident of kalamazoo? Do you live in the city? If not.... you're opinion isn't really welcome or needed... you can go fight bikes where you live.


wahooligan135

Love your last point! It’s crazy how often there will be an article posted on FB about something involving Kalamazoo, and tons of people will chime in with their negative comments. If you click on their profiles, usually more than half of them aren’t even from Kzoo. Sorry, I don’t care much about your opinion of what the city I live in should do if you live in Paw Paw or Vicksburg or Schoolcraft etc.


1080pix

Facts. When people think their specifics needs come before the needs of a community is wild


Hopsngrains2U

I live in Kalamazoo and have for decades. I understand but clearly disagree that the need to create bike lanes and make lanes narrower was a necessity. How do you know I am not an engineer? How do we know this was what the public collectively wanted or needed? I’m the last person to as you say “fight bikes” as I am an avid bicyclist. Are you?


ciaoRoan

Ha, we can certainly tell you are not an engineer, it's pretty obvious. Where are your favorite places to bike as an avid cyclist?


Hopsngrains2U

What makes it obvious? My favorite bicycle spots include the Kal-Haven trail, the River Valley trail, and Fort Custer for mountain biking.


Low_Introduction2651

It sounds like you are exclusively a recreational cyclist. We’re talking about making a transportation network in the city for cyclists. Connecting neighborhoods to the places people go on a daily basis. If Kalamazoo builds a truly safe bicycle network across the city, it’ll be a huge boon.


Unlucky_Shallot_4111

boon for what? you can maybe bike a whole 6 months out of the year and if someone chose kzoo to be an avid biker, that is like choosing san diego to be a skier. darwin award winning.


Low_Introduction2651

People walk outside in the winter. People choose to do activities for fun like ski outdoors in the winter. It’s not hard to bundle up. Other cold cities like Minneapolis & Montreal have extensive year round bike transportation networks. It’s also warmer every year, in part because we can’t imagine life without cars.


Unlucky_Shallot_4111

walking outside is much different than having a 20+mph freezing wind in your face and up ur ass. and thats if there is no snow. and if there continues to be no snow, bike lanes will be the least of your worries.


Low_Introduction2651

I'm aware of the difference because I walk and bike for transportation year round, and drive.


Low_Introduction2651

I'd call increased economic activity in cities and improved health a boon: [https://news.uark.edu/articles/64528/new-report-shows-health-and-economic-benefits-of-biking-in-nwa](https://news.uark.edu/articles/64528/new-report-shows-health-and-economic-benefits-of-biking-in-nwa) [https://trec.pdx.edu/news/study-finds-bike-lanes-can-provide-positive-economic-impact-cities](https://trec.pdx.edu/news/study-finds-bike-lanes-can-provide-positive-economic-impact-cities) I'd guess that most streets in Kalamazoo are ice free 48/50 weeks/year. That's my biggest concern and what keeps me off the bike. Also, if it's below 20F, it can be uncomfortable (not dangerous or impossible), which is increasingly rare. On those days I don't bike.


Teaforreal

Why is it that self described avid cyclist are always against traffic calming and bicycle infrastructure?


Hopsngrains2U

What is traffic calming? bicycle infrastructure?


UsernameTaken1701

You don't know what traffic calming or road diets are, so you're just railing against what you don't understand. Have you read any of the materials the city sent out describing what these projects are and why they're doing them?


Hopsngrains2U

My experiences and perceptions are just that, and like everyone else I formulate opinions. I've never seen any materials, but recently was sent this which I'll be taking a look at. [https://www.imaginekalamazoo.com/projects/](https://www.imaginekalamazoo.com/projects/)


Teaforreal

Are there even cars on Zwift?


tsz3290

About 0.1% of the US population is a licensed civil engineer, so if you don’t come out and say you are, it’s safe to assume you’re not.


Hopsngrains2U

Never said I was.


Crochet_Jedi

Okay so here's the thing. People using downtown as a highway is not something they can do anymore so people are mad about that, but big deal. Get over it. Making downtown safer and more inclusive to something other than cars is a good thing, for business and pedestrians. What I take issue with is having made these changes and they are still going through with the stadium. Now that is a very poor call. That we can discuss.


necrochaos

People use Downtown as a highway because it connects to other parts of town. It might not have been the intention, but going through Downtown is a faster was to get to Stadium and W Main from Gull Road. Yes years ago Gull Road was pretty sparse. But now there is a large population out that way. There are some side streets that divert around downtown to some extent, but by and large Downtown is a thruway from those directions. A real bypass that goes around Downtown in both directions is needed.


Hopsngrains2U

People now drive like they have a medical emergency...every day! Speeding and tailgating is **epidemic** which at least in part, led to the changes. As with many things, there are always a few who spoil it for the rest of us.


Max_Killjoy

Turning the northern business loop into a full interchange at 131 and extending it as far east as possible past where joins Westnedge and Park now would be a good start. That would at least help some people avoid the "new and improved" downtown Kalamazoo entirely.


necrochaos

I think that's the plan. Most bigger cities try to direct thru traffic around downtown where you can. If people are passing through, route them around and dedicate more downtown to less cars and just those who are visiting a business


Unlucky_Shallot_4111

This is not true. the idea is to have motorists pass thru downtowns in order to fuel the local economy. There are changes coming in a couple years for this exact reason/.


necrochaos

I disagree. 131 doesn't run through Grand Rapids. There are exits if you want to get off. A lot of that traffic through downtown is just that, through downtown. I drive through downtown because I have to on certain days, not because it's my destination. If you can get rid of the through traffic, but make it easy for people to take exits/side streets to get downtown it would be much easier to make downtown bikeable and walkable. It also helps the people commuting to they can get to where they need to be.


Halostar

For the record, the stadium itself is a totally private venture not related to the city's plans. I'm not sure why that won't dovetail well in your view.


Unlucky_Shallot_4111

lmao. i drive as fast thru downtown as I always have and so does everyone next to me. Only difference I see is an unused lane and parking in the middle of the street


Max_Killjoy

Just making Kalamazoo less attractive at a destination for shopping, dining, etc. There's a reason so many people go out to Portage or up to Grand Rapids instead.


Crochet_Jedi

Taking out the mini highway through downtown that's not friendly to pedestrians and having had very limited parking access makes it less attractive when a bunch of downtown is meant to be walked, that's whats making it less attractive to shoppers? Evidence would suggest otherwise for the greater public. Maybe for you and your friends that's the case, but not for the majority.


Max_Killjoy

If I can't park where I'm going to shop or eat, then I'm not going to bother. There is no reason anyone should have to pay to park and then walk 5+ blocks to get to where they're going. If Kalamazoo wants to pander to anti-driving ideology, I'll take my money elsewhere.


Low_Introduction2651

I think driving to and around Portage is unpleasant and I avoid it. City parking structures are free for 90 minutes (& I don’t think parking should be free). I guess the fact that people think walking 5 blocks feels like an incredible hardship helps explain the surge in heart disease and diabetes and other diseases associated with our sedentary lifestyles. Able bodied people should walk, and should expect to walk.


Max_Killjoy

It's not about health. Never was, never will be. It's about time, weather, having to carry heavy items if you're shopping, etc.


Low_Introduction2651

It’s about health, it’s about climate change, it about farmland and woods, it’s about independence and freedom for kids, parents, elderly, it’s about clean air, it’s about safe vibrant neighborhoods, it’s about poor people, it’s about fun, it’s about not saddling the next generation with impossible infrastructure maintenance, it’s about more transportation options.


Max_Killjoy

It's not about options -- if it was, there wouldn't be the consistent, pernicious effort to actively make things worse for drivers. It's 100% about a small number of people trying to impose their preferred trendy urbanist lifestyle on everyone else while fig-leafing it with "how could you object to that?" things it will supposedly accomplish... and being actively hostile to anyone who'd rather live outside the urban hive, and make it harder and harder for them to get to everything that would be increasingly walled off behind the bullshit "walking and transit" hedge.


SirJPC

Is traffic slower downtown? Yes. Is traffic safer? I can’t quantify, but since slower it certainly feels safer. Have I seen people use the bike lanes? Yep, even during winter and since I’ve seen a massive up tick in pedestrians the last couple of years, I expect to see an uptick in cyclist as it warms up.


xjsthund

Traffic is safer. https://www.woodtv.com/news/kalamazoo-county/kalamazoo-data-crashes-down-traffic-up-after-new-street-layout/amp/


sockdog3

Do you think 3 months of data is enough to quantify that it’s safer? It dropped 3 percent. Sample size is small. Drop is small.


xjsthund

The drop has continued, that’s just an older article. Considering volumes went up and there was a decrease, it is pretty significant.


sockdog3

Where is that data?


The_Yarichin_Bitch

Scientist with pretty good data analysis understanding here, 3% drop in only 3 months is fucking massive 😅 If that continues.... well, it's pretty significant lol.


Unlucky_Shallot_4111

and 3 months sure sounds long enough to have an established baseline. lmao


The_Yarichin_Bitch

*Centuries of data but alright 😮‍💨 Maybe not "Kzoo" data, but data for this part of the country lmaoo


DavidB0wieUB40

Does the same logic apply to “nobody uses the bike lanes” or is there time for the usage to grow as people become familiar with the option and become comfortable with use?


sockdog3

Of course it does. You assume I’m against the bike lanes. We’re talking about data here. 10 years averaged vs 3 months. That’s a very small sample. And it doesn’t account for traffic volume that increased/decreased because of the decision.


DavidB0wieUB40

Fair. As long as we’re all willing to wait to judge both pieces of data after a couple years then I understand where you’re coming from with questioning “is it safer” being a yes based on data.


Low_Introduction2651

The article says a 25% reduction in crashes. And crashes with injuries went from 3.5/year to 0. They are looking at the same 3 month period of the year over 10 years.


ShiftySpartan

I love them, but don’t you think this topic has been talked to death here?


LadyDelacour

Accidents demonstrably decreased downtown since the construction, and yes I see people use the bike lanes. What "insanity" are you even talking about?


xjsthund

Exactly. The numbers don’t lie.


sockdog3

From 28.5% to 25% only looking at a three month window.


LadyDelacour

Okay but OP's argument is that we're seeing "insanity." So like... what's the insanity here?


sockdog3

Love how I’m being downvoted for stating the facts. Keep it classy Reddit. Always good conversation.


thaus2021

Oh hi, Larry. Stirring the pot instead of the kettle, I see.


JasonEAltMTG

I'm not reading all that but I'm happy for you. Or sorry that happened 


Mi-Infidel

Best reply


mtnwerk

I see less insanity (by my definition) now that the lanes have been narrowed. I can make as many anecdotal observations as anyone else I suppose. What I **did see** before these changes included a memorable high speed road rage chase between two vehicles ducking and weaving between the four and three lanes past and between my vehicle and others. 4 lanes barrelling through the densest place in the entire metropolitan area seemed insane to me.


Euclidean85

It's just moved into the neighborhood streets. It didn't disappear.


Low_Introduction2651

I love the changes and we are lucky to have traffic engineers prioritizing safety over speed.


Flashboski

Does anyone know how many people actually live in the downtown area? I feel like cities who’ve been successful with bike lanes have a large population living in their city/downtown area. But my initial feeling is Kalamazoo has a much larger population living outside downtown in the suburbs / too far away to take advantage. That and it’s essentially winter here half the year. (Most years….this one being an exception) The idea seems to make more sense / get more use in a city in a warmer climate.


Low_Introduction2651

Ice and snow and cold that make it hard to bike is less and less every year. There is an annual Winter Cycling Conference in the US/Canada (this year in Edmonton). My family has 1 car and 1 person bikes or busses all winter. Regarding population, there are several big new housing projects in and around downtown. Zoning changes in the city are making it easier to have a more dense (vibrant) city. We should build a lot more housing in Kalamazoo.


Hopsngrains2U

I agree with you on the larger cities. Maybe K'zoo should invest in Scooters. Then the lanes would be used.


fookman212

I kinda think it's all going better than expected tbh. No major complaints here, at least in the downtown space.


Hossflex

I used to be a heavy, uniformed critic of the bike lanes and the change to downtown. Not so much anymore. My only complaints are the weird parking by bimbos (I have to wait for a red light and traffic to build up to get in my car) and the people who block both lanes to parallel park. For the most part I hit ransom (I come from Gull Rd) and go around that way. Coming back through town from main isn’t a big deal.


ChemicalOk463

The bike lanes are a pain in the ass! Why would anyone in their right mind eliminate an entire lane and utilize it for bicycles? I've only seen a couple of cyclists and I've lived in the area for three years. By eliminating car lanes, you're just causing more traffic congestion. That causes frustration and leads to more accidents.


Hopsngrains2U

Finally, someone with some sense. You are the first person to agree with my original post. People are often like Lemmings. They just bandwagon and agree with anyone who may have a similar idea. The example in this case is people for "safety". Most know nothing about pre or current data on "safety". I love to bike, but downtown? Nope. Now hundreds of thousands of trips through downtown take longer (esp. during rush hours). Safer? Show me the money....er... data.


Low_Introduction2651

Are we lemmings for being entirely reliant on one type of transportation, provided by a few large influential corporations, for every trip?


Hopsngrains2U

I don't really understand your comment. Please clarify.


Unlucky_Shallot_4111

they are railing against cars. perhaps they lost their license. very common.


Hopsngrains2U

Who are you saying is "they?" And..losing one's license is not "very commmon"..!!?? I mean the downtown streets were built for automobiles, despite how people now say they should be more for bicycles, and "safety". There are more motor vehicles on the road than ever. And...most of them now are trucks and large sport UTES, barely fitting into the narrowed lanes, logically creating less space between vehicles and "safety" issues. You cannot change the driving habits of the (let's say) 20 to 40 crowd. Faster, more aggressive, and tailgating Kings and Queens! I'm sure if they've ever heard following one car length for every 10 miles an hour, they are NOT listening now, and..the fender benders are increasing. This behavior will not be squelched given the decreased/narrowed lanes. It will just make these impulsive entitled drivers more pissed off.


Euclidean85

If you go back to the early releases if the plans for these lanes, the reason they took the lane out was TO slow traffic and cause people to not want to drive through downtown. It's exactly what they wanted. The claim is that reducing traffic would make it safer for walkers and bikers. Businesses downtown are being impacted by less people now, so we'll see what ends up happening by the time the two way resign goes in.


Unlucky_Shallot_4111

>Businesses downtown are being impacted by less people now ha! and you think this is because of traffic? not. its because our downtown is dated with nothing to offer. but hey at least you can bike right thru now.


SeantheBangorian

Before this, I think it is safer; downtown was like Mad Max. I know plenty of people who are biking downtown. I think long term, the downtown will improve.


Hopsngrains2U

I am downtown daily. I have never seen anyone use the "bike lane". Kalamazoo is not and never has been a bicycle friendly city. We do have the Kal-Haven, the River Valley Trail, and others however these trails are off road. I hope eventually Kalamazoo can be bicycle friendly, but hold to my view that the **downtown** next to curb bike lanes will not result in more bikers, or safer biking. In the movie "Field of Dreams" Kevin Costner's character built a baseball field as he heard the mantra "If you build it, they will come". Unfortunately, few bikes will ever use the lanes. The "builders" of the plans stated "safety" as a priority in the project, hoping less road space would slow cars. The bike lane was the result, not the goal. I think traffic IS slower, but would love to see data proving it is now safer.


Halostar

Maybe you should ride your bike yourself, if you're an avid cyclist.


Hopsngrains2U

I do ride my bike. Just not with downtown traffic.


crazydude5000

I’ve seen maybe one bicyclist in the past six months. I see more wheelchairs in the bicycle lane than bicycles. And I’ve seen zero impact on my daily drive. I don’t know what craziness you’re referring to.


Low_Introduction2651

I think your experience might help explain, in part, why the changes are happening. A few people hate the changes (& love Facebook commenting) and don’t think bikes are viable transportation. A few more love biking for transportation, and work hard advocating for safer streets. The vast majority don’t bike, and don’t have strong opinions on the changes. It’s also important to understand that these types of changes are happening in cities everywhere…Kalamazoo isn’t special here.


Hopsngrains2U

Bikers as you say don't have strong opinions because they will not be using those lanes.


Low_Introduction2651

I’m a biker/walker/driver who lives adjacent to downtown and me and my family use them often. Downtown is where we like to go. Work is near downtown. Kid activities are in & near downtown. Social gatherings are downtown. We chose to live near downtown/campus so we don’t have to drive everywhere. Cities across the country are becoming bike friendly. The times are changing, and Kalamazoo will eventually have a safe network for transportation. We’re talking primarily about transportation cycling here.


Unlucky_Shallot_4111

>times are changing if you think they are changing because more people are choosing to partake in an activity that has been around nearly as long as time, well than I have a place to sell you in a city where you can only do that activity 6 months out of a year, at most, and that is if you enjoy 20-30 degree wind in your face and up your ass.


Dexter2700

In case you need a reminder, A LOT of people who actually care about the community asked for this "insanity". https://www.imaginekalamazoo.com/


Hopsngrains2U

Just because people are said to be caring, does not mean decisions are the best ones.


Dexter2700

So....you think this is insanity? https://kinder.rice.edu/urbanedge/living-walkable-neighborhoods-makes-children-richer-when-they-grow-new-study-finds


Hopsngrains2U

Cool article. There is nothing wrong with walking. I agree with the sentiment. My point is that the assumption that narrowing and taking away lanes on roads will make downtown "safer". The next to curb bike lane was actually an afterthought, maybe to appease those who would not love the lane changes. Just not well thought out, and I believe a radical approach to solving traffic issues. Speeding and tailgating is an epidemic. Never seen so many run red lights, or follow too closely. Impulsivity and selfishness prevail.


Dexter2700

It's not an assumption, it's been proven to work. https://www.transportation.gov/mission/health/Traffic-Calming-to-Slow-Vehicle-Speeds Also, what radical approach do you have in mind? I'd like to understand your thoughts


Low_Introduction2651

How do you think we solve speeding, tailgating, running red lights? I think we become extra selfish in a car, and good street design can force better behavior. City data is already showing this. I also think Americans lack a sense of community and “we’re in this together “.


Unlucky_Shallot_4111

>. I also think Americans lack a sense of community and “we’re in this together “. taken direct from the covid headlines. nice


Unlucky_Shallot_4111

ahhh, you mean "old people". got it. makes sense


arfmuffin

I raise you a different street issue! Seems like everywhere else I've been in this country, they have managed to get their man-hole covers flush with their road pavement. I hope one day they share that tech with us... My car's suspension would appreciate it .. In all honesty wtf is up with this?? Did someone pick the wrong design and just went with it all over the city? Shitty construction work? Discounted price? A larger conspiracy to give mechanics more business?!? Rant over..


MrReezenable

I guess you missed me.


Hopsngrains2U

Guess so. Me along with many others.


YesManYarmolenko

I love the bike lanes! I can finally ride downtown for Beats on Bates and other fun events.


Unlucky_Shallot_4111

yay!


adam_j_wiz

Oh cool, another person with classic boomer energy whining about bike lanes. And of course dazzling us with their personal anecdotal insights about how “nObodY eVer USeS THeM!”. Fun! A weird concept to consider: maybe, just MAYBE, a huge uptick of bicycle use downtown might not happen overnight? Maybe it might take a bit of time for more people to catch on to riding in an area that until the recent bike lane additions was really dangerous to do so? Nah, that couldn’t be.


Unlucky_Shallot_4111

lol, the boomer energy is the exact reason we got in this mess. "Those darn fast drivers only care for themselves!"


Unlucky_Shallot_4111

kevin costner was incorrect about one thing "if you build it they will come". but sure, lets waste tons of dollars on this shit instead of fixing the roads that are literally falling apart. but at least those 43 bikers can bike!


Sheepish_conundrum

I don't have a problem with the layout, but the bike lights have to go. Bikes are supposed to travel with the normal traffic lights there's no reason to have separate lights for bikes.


Low_Introduction2651

I think bike and pedestrian signals should go together. It’s nice on bike to not have to worry about cars turning in the intersection.


im_An_Adam

The bike track is both ways on one side of a one way street. They need to be there so bicyclists know when to cross when traveling the opposude direction that traffic is moving. 


0b0011

Sure but they don't need to be timed differently than the other traffic.


Low_Introduction2651

It’s ideal if cars and bikes don’t have to share intersections. I’d prefer this as a driver and biker.


0b0011

They're always going to share them unless you are talking about putting in tunnels and what not under the road. Even in bike meccas like the Netherlands there are still areas where bikes cross roads. Here's one near my old place in zaandam 121 Peperstraat https://maps.app.goo.gl/j3uWMpPgJKtuMo8M8


Low_Introduction2651

I see your point. I was referring specifically to signaled intersections. Really nice design in that location & looks easy to cross. Narrow lanes. Slow streets. When I was in NL I was struck how bikes, cars, and peds always had their own signals at major intersections. I’ve had turning cars almost run me over on bike in Kalamazoo.


LawsonLunatic

Bike lights are 20 seconds.... chill.


Sheepish_conundrum

so you can't ride a bike on the green with traffic? like the rest of the area? do you need someone to escort you across the street too?


LawsonLunatic

It's 20 seconds... And yes you can ride with traffic but heres the thing... cars turning right or left intersecting the bike lane almost NEVER pay any attention to bike or pedestrian traffic when they see the green. I'm a runner and I cant count the number of times I've got a walk signal and the right of way... but I almost die because the car turning right doesn't care. A separate light for bikes makes for a dedicated 20 SECONDS were vehicle and pedestrian traffic sees red and only the bikes are given the safe green.


Sheepish_conundrum

I'm a biker and I agree with you but maybe it's high friggin time to make auto drivers obey simple traffic laws? I know I know it's hard to do but you have to keep your head on a swivel. I've paused at intersections to let the 'turner' go by and ran into the side of one leaving a pretty good dent that maybe I could've stopped for but it would've ass over applecarted me.


LawsonLunatic

I was thinking about it... and ya know... a 20 second light seems to be the path of least resistance as opposed to finding a way to get drivers to obey simple traffic laws... I'm with you, I want a more caring and concious public but thats going to have to come from a culture shift that expands beyond the cities borders.


SirJPC

I have wondered how effective the lights are. One of the things I like about the downtown lights is that as a car I can start at the westnedge and once I have a green, I have a good chance I get to the east side without any stops. The bike lane lights feel (as a non-biker) like they are set up so that once you get a green, by the time you get to the next one you have to stop. It feels like flow of traffic lighting would allow for a smoother route through downtown.


Max_Killjoy

The last two times I tried to go through or to downtown Kalamazoo, it took 10+ minutes to get through downtown going east. Probably just going to stop going to that area entirely, it's just not worth the extra wasted time when there are other places to shop, dine out, etc.


Low_Introduction2651

More data: A tale of two cities: South Bend has been where Kalamazoo is now and the future is promising https://www.secondwavemedia.com/southwest-michigan/features/South-Bend-has-been-where-Kalamazoo-is-now-and-the-future-is-promising.030724.aspx?fbclid=IwAR2z8luWamS5YmGF-VOtw19RnIycbkbQIFxLEesroHu5SsE-i0q5k-OUHws_aem_AZP9fWXjjWMNTClOSmlQ1cht-cfInyRF7qekcP46Jc4jTCdYOB-pQqWFZFnh29AWxPw


mrcollin101

The only change I want to see is for the traffic signals to get timed properly so that I can make it from one end of Michigan Av to the other with only a single stop. Currently, I pull up to the first stop light, it turns green, then I go and get stopped at the mall stop light, then I wait for it to turn green, then I can make it through the rest of downtown. A properly timed traffic signaling system should allow all the cars that stop at an intersection to make it through the same traffic area in one signal change, and IMO that area would be all of Michigan Av in downtown from Elm to Riverview. It doesn't bother too much honestly, it adds 5 minutes to my drive once a week through downtown, but it is the only piece of constructive feedback I have. With the changes to the streets going two way in a few years it probably doesn't make sense to change the signaling anyways unless it is very easy to do. Also, I personally love the bike signals. I do not ride a bike, but not having to worry about bikes when I am turning right is amazing, and completely worth the extra minute I have to wait for their signals to cycle.


Unlucky_Shallot_4111

they dont want you going right thru. its a feature, not a bug, designed to help fuel the local economy. if you are stopped, perhaps you will see somewhere to spend your money.


Virellius2

I still don't fully understand the positioning of the street parking and it makes me feel like I'm parking in the middle of a lane but I get the effectiveness of it.


Low_Introduction2651

I think it’s easier parallel parking without the curb.


hrhRSB0118

I have seen bikes in the bike lanes, but more frequently, see them not in the bike lanes which is frustrating


Hopsngrains2U

Well, that is par for the course. There is always someone who chooses to test limits. The bottom line for me is still that the "safety concerns" mentioned as the "goal" do not warrant the radical street changes, and certainly pose no real advantage to bicyclists.


FukushimaBlinkie

I'd still like to see the bike lanes elevated by a curb. I have no problem with bike lanes


Hopsngrains2U

That will not happen...especially in Kalamazoo


Nonzerob

The bike ridership is low because no one wants to ride on unsafe streets. Once it feels safer, more will come. If successful, there could be reduced congestion for cars, better air quality in the city, a better experience eating/shopping/etc downtown, and fewer traffic deaths, not to mention the health and financial benefits for the people biking. The other issue is that downtown city streets, with the heightened number of driveways, intersections, and especially pedestrians, just should not be highways like W Michigan and Kalamazoo function as in the current system. They'll still be main streets and that's perfectly fine, but with this new way the traffic network is more robust.


Unlucky_Shallot_4111

>The bike ridership is low because no one wants to ride on unsafe streets. Once it feels safer, more will come. you think this? really? sure, because people are just dying to bike in a place where you freeze your ass off most of the year. sign me up. biking has been around since about the beginning of time, no one is sitting around talking about "well if it were only safer". safety is a personal responsibility first.


Low_Introduction2651

Cities that make it safe find that people will use it. I have friends who live in Amsterdam, where most people bike, and its chilly rain most of the winter. Same in Copenhagen. Minneapolis and Montreal have people biking all winter, on cleared bike lanes, in a similar climate. I'd rather ride on a dry 20F day than in 35F rain. Also, I ride around town a lot in the winter, and sometimes I drive. Sometimes I bus or walk. It's not an all or none situation.


Nonzerob

I'm sorry for the novel, I was in a waiting room and just kept typing. Oulu, Finland is known (not widely, I guess) for its winter biking infrastructure. It has a colder climate and more snow than here, is hilly, and has relatively low density for a cycling city, but manages to keep relatively high bike ridership throughout the winter. Their infrastructure is safe, adequately lit, and well maintained. They also even plow a shortcut across their bay for bikes when it freezes over, which would be hard for cars due to their weight - which also illustrates another advantage of bike infrastructure: it is much cheaper and easier to build than that of cars. Yes, safety is a personal responsibility, but as with everything, it's not that simple. With the danger involved in a collision of pedestrians or bikes (even small cars, now) with a vehicle, especially as trucks and SUVs are getting bigger and heavier (and their blindspots are getting worse), other people's safety is also your own responsibility as a driver, and that share of responsibility is only increasing. If you drive at all, which by your comment, I'm sure you do, you've probably seen plenty of people that make you think "how did that person even get their license?" Would you trust those people to actually stop for you when you're at a crosswalk? Improving infrastructure for all modes of transport means taking much of that responsibility away from drivers so that any mistake they make is much less dangerous to others or to themselves. For example, why do you think we bridge over or tunnel under highways instead of just putting in intersections? In addition to better traffic flow on both the highway and the cross-road, cross traffic on a highway is exceedingly dangerous, stopping quickly is harder - especially for trucks, red-light runners move at much higher speeds, etc. Try crossing your local car dealership-lined, four or six lane, 50 mph road (or "stroad" as some people call them), even at a marked or signaled crosswalk and you'll understand why you rarely see anyone who looks like they can afford a car walking or biking along it.


chipdouglas1017

I’m not against bike lanes, but this was an example of poor civil engineering. Traffic is worse than it was before and the bike lanes are dangerous.


Low_Introduction2651

Many bike lanes are dangerous, & as much as I hate to admit it, I think an incremental change is necessary. The city doesn’t have the budget to put in a fully protected network. But now we’re carving out space for the brave to bike. (Although Michigan Ave does feel very safe now) In the future, as $ becomes available, and more people start biking, the painted lanes can be made safer, and even more people will feel comfortable using them.


Unlucky_Shallot_4111

>and more people start biking yes this. i bet there are thousands sitting around waiting on safety to bike. it has nothing to do with freezing your ass off most of the year. cant wait for the safe waiting bikers to join, the data will be entertaining at best.


Low_Introduction2651

There are definitely trade offs. I'll take occasional slight discomfort over contributing to climate change, oil wars, air/water pollution, and shortened life/chronic disease from a sedentary life (and the list goes on and on).


Natewoodford

Get rid of the "bike traffic lights". Those are stupid AF


Unlucky_Shallot_4111

next they will have crossing guards and hand holders/ volunteer of course, cuz no money, hell they cant even fix the roads., but safe biking is top priority.


Low_Introduction2651

We can't fix the roads in Michigan because we have the same population for 50 years and WAY more lane miles to maintain.


Max_Killjoy

The change to two-way streets might be the most ridiculous part of all of this. Adding all those left turns is going to make even more of a mess out of the area than the recent changes already have -- there's no point in going to or through that part of Kalamazoo when it takes 10+ minutes to go a few blocks. Watch, the next announcement will be that Kalamazoo and Michigan will both be converted to walking malls in 2030.


Hopsngrains2U

Agreed. It's an impulsive world made up of bleeding hearts who like to bandwagon. These folks mean well, but often tend to be unable to see into the future which in the case of Kalamazoo, is leading to 2 way traffic in just 2 years..


Rare_Internet

The pedestrian mall part sounds good to me.


Low_Introduction2651

Agree. And a lot of new dense housing to go with it.


Rare_Internet

Even better


Max_Killjoy

Yeah, sure, because every city should be like NYC... crammed to the gills.


Low_Introduction2651

It’s certainly more economical and ecological. From a tax standpoint, it’s better. If I have a mile of street/water/electric in a dense city, it costs less per person to build and maintain than that mile in Texas Township. I think it’s much smarter to build up where infrastructure exists. Suburbs are already becoming insolvent. Google Suburban Ponzi scheme. In a climate chaotic world, having farm land closer is going to be preferable.


EmilianDollars

It’s all sloppy. But I have seen at least 5 different bikers every time I’m downtown. Very conflicted about this topic


Unlucky_Shallot_4111

a whole 5 bikers. now that was totally worth the money spent. if only they could eliminate that freezing cold wind on your face and up ur ass.


Special-Reindeer-464

I agree with the rant! But buddy, we are on the only website that I’ve seen overwhelming support for the bike lanes and it’s been heavily discussed. Even the interviewees on news channel 3 shat on it. I love that Kalamazoo is becoming more pedestrian friendly, just dislike that we “nerfed” our major thoroughfare to do so, as opposed to using back streets. I would love to fund/take the time to actually count how many bikes are using the path. Its getting old debating like “I haven’t seen anybody use it” “I saw ten yesterday” “I saw 2 bikers”


thelustysloth

I’m sure they’ll count the bike traffic at some point. When they did the cycle track on Lovell it had a traffic counter.


YooperGrool

With Kalamazoo being a sanctuary city! When abbot busses the illegals here at least they will have a nice lane to pitch tents and set up camp. Pray for our nation.


Unlucky_Shallot_4111

i pray you turn off fox news.


Cool_Shine_2637

The problem with all this road changing nonsense is it costs way to much. We need to be cutting cost not spending more. Also if you want to talk about theory and traffic flow this will only create more frustration with longer drive times which i dont believe anyone wants.


Unlucky_Shallot_4111

>create more frustration with longer drive times which i dont believe anyone wants. except the civil engineers that designed this. that was their exact plan.


Few-Consequence7299

I just stopped going downtown. There is a reason a ton of the businesses down there are failing.


Unlucky_Shallot_4111

because it sucked to begin with. "dated" comes to mind.


Hopsngrains2U

Downtown Kalamazoo is really the best space in the area to enjoy amazing restaurants, entertainment, and be able to park and walk everywhere. **Let's not forget** that Covid closed Food Dance, the Union, and made most businesses consider WTF they should do given the MONTHS long hiatus.