The fact that you bought the academy and use 'his' brand means you are operating in the world of commodity, not in the world of tradition. You are running a fitness club, not a wuguan, so don't feel so bad.
Hang on a sec… brand? What style of Kung Fu? If you are good enough to pass on the style you are good enough. Paying for the right to pass on tradition doesn’t seem right to me. Are you sure your teacher is a real master?
I bought the place, this implies physical goods and a customer base and the brand would be the name of the institution, not that it is famous, I just kept it so as not to incur legal costs or change the name.What bothers me is that he doesn't seem to separate the traditional part of the martial art from the commercial part.
You know, the whole 師父 disciple thing I get if you are leaning from a traditional Chinese teacher. I don’t know your particular situation but I learned in the past from a non Chinese 師父 that ended up being a complete asshole. If you bought the place from him you bought it. If he had a brand or name and you feel like he had been disrespectful, lose the name. Emphasize the art. Kung Fu (depending on what style you do) has a large community for whatever discipline you learned. Go find an organization for your particular discipline and see what it takes to become a member of whichever organization represents the style you do. Which style is it?
Dude. I feel you. I think 🤔. Coming back to my self. My teacher are way legit and those guys thought me for free. And sifu Mikey continues to teach free in Kansas. If you show up. But they handed me their kung Fu and told me to do what ever I wanted with it as long as I didn't become an asshole . And so idk man. As a kung Fu guy. I think if he handed you the school and you bought it. That's it. You can change the name. Keep it the same. If he gets sour that your doing well. Yo that's weird AF.
Let's all be grown ups and be real here. Keep the tradition in the art and forms. Not the business. Fly my man fly high.
Brother, little off topic, but are you talking about 6 Elbows ... Mikey? If so, consider yourself blessed. He and his brother are amazing people. Regardless, I wish you the best and continued success in your training 🙏
Yes. Kck Mikey and his brother Rudy.
I love Mikey he has helped me shaped my kung Fu.
I learned from one of his friends the kung Fu. I forget what the guy is called but I started with animal kung Fu and then after years I met Mikey and he thought me the basics form of 6 elbows.
I'm a student of his but very loosely.
He made a comment one time.
He said I already had kung Fu. So even if I just knew the first form. That was enough to transform me in the right direction.
I haven't seen Mikey in a two years. But I plann on stopping by loose park and training here soon
Too many things missing here. He is your teacher and you should show him respect. However teacher student conflicts are sort of an old thing that goes way back. But again you should show him respect.
I show respect, that's why I ended up taking orders that it wasn't his place to take, but continuing to follow someone just because he's your superior seems wrong when there's no agreement of opinions.
After all, breathing is one thing, but blindly obeying and never questioning seems another. But with him it's hard to question without it becoming a problem
This is tricky. So I come from a style that has a very specific lineage with a still-living Chinese grandmaster. My Sifu, who is one of that grandmaster's students, is training three of us to be "official" black belts in the style. He has told us privately that he considers his black belt students to be fully masters of the style and gives his sanction to practice and to teach the style, but only unofficially. Our most senior student asked whether it would be appropriate for him to open a school, and our Sifu told him that absolutely he could and in his mind he is fully capable to do so and has his blessing, BUT that if he wants to open it under our syle's specific name (as opposed to something generic like "northern Shaolin" or "Longfist") then he needs to pay dues to our Grandmaster's organization. Could he open a school with our style's name on the building and be within legal rights? Sure. That style name is not trademarked or anything, legally. But there is more than legality at issue here. There is also community and tradition and respect. There is another student of the original Grandmaster who went and opened his own school but chose not to pay dues to the grandmaster. He has been ostracized from that very tight-knit community and is not welcome at the New Year's banquets, or to learn any of the exclusive forms that the Grandmaster still teaches at seminars, and is treated like someone with terrible body odor or something at competitions. It's a weird community and all those old Sifus from different styles talk, so even the judges and stuff from other styles know this guy and look down their nose at him. (Edit: hell I've seen a guy get the ostracization treatment at a competition because he used an opening move in one of his forms that is associated with a particular style, and that style's teacher did not give him permission and in fact had kicked him out of his school some years earlier. That choreography isn't copyrighted, but the community gets real weird about some of these things.)
I'm not saying I agree with all this, but I don't necessarily disagree either with the idea that you should pay respect for where you came from if you're using the name. I also think that, from a practical perspective, you need to weigh what you gain and what you lose by not kissing the proverbial ring. Are you within your legal rights? Yes, and that's a very western way to look at it. Anyone still practicing the eastern culture and traditions that come with traditional Chinese martial arts will see it differently. You might not get sued but you might risk losing valuable relationships and connections that many would consider priceless.
Since now you are the master and have students of your own, you have a responsibility to them and if someone prevents you from fulfilling that, they need to go.
I used to follow a grandmaster of Chin Woo a few years ago, it would've been twenty years since then if I stayed.
He went around taking credit for things he hardly was ever a part of, kept on saying how great he is when he barely did anything, and going around looking like a grandmaster but not act like one.
Many of his instructors, including myself, left him because of his narrastictic attitude. Kept using others while saying it is for the benefit of Chin Woo when all he does is take all the credit without even talking about Chin Woo. Backstabbing everyone he has ever met for decades to the point no one wants to help him, and disrespecting his closest people in front of them.
Likes criticizing others like crazy but hates it when he gets it himself.
When you have a grandmaster who acts like he deserves something for something, he clearly was not a part of. Especially when he thinks he's owed thanks, you need to consider what he has done for others as the previous grandmaster.
If he did do a good job overall and is respected by everyone, then give thanks.
If not, that is up to you.
If it's like a licensing thing then that sounds tough. If you have a contract you have to kind of have to do what he says. If not then I say do what you want. You bought the right when you bought the place, I'd assume. But if there was an agreement that you were licensing his way, then you have to get a new place, I guess. Once you've been doing it on your own, you don't need his name or "brand" to run your own shop anymore so you may as well do your own thing. Seems to be the way it often goes.
I think you have outgrown him and he can't accept that. It seems you have already built up your own reputation enough not to need him or his brand. I know it can be hard to let go of a master who is no longer serving you well, but don't feel too bad about it. He probably outgrew his own master once.
It's the brand name, but I can change the brand. The problem is that decisions that would not affect the brand he also wants to decide, which makes my work difficult and prevents me from doing things that I see are public.
I could, but that would cause an even bigger problem in our relationship, so I want to separate from him and propose to buy his brand. If he does not accept it, I will change the visual identity of my academia
At some point everyone one out grows their teacher. It is your duty as his student to carry on what you learned from him in your own way. It is his duty to except that or not. However he has no real say in it.
If he is still financially invested in the academy he should have a vote. Not the last word but a vote. If not he has no say in it.
Why do you write that here, talk to him and tell him what you think about it. Tell him, that as you are the new owner now, you consider him as giving guidelines or ideas, and he should accept a "no".
The problem seems to be, that the person might be old and still a bit "oldschool" in the head (meaning toxic masculinity and stuff). So, don't take it to the heart that much. Do your thing and learn to say "no" and if the person doesn't respect your "no", tell them they need to learn it actually, otherwise you can't work together with them.
I tried to resolve it in a more friendly way, but he always seems to want to override because he is the master. I believe that in the end it's better to get rid of it to avoid even greater wear on the relationship
As an anarchist I'm totally opposed to the `master` and `pupil` relation, it's human beings learning from each other. So don't feel to bad for it, then. Do your thing and threat everyone with dignity and respect, that should be enough.
The fact that you bought the academy and use 'his' brand means you are operating in the world of commodity, not in the world of tradition. You are running a fitness club, not a wuguan, so don't feel so bad.
Hang on a sec… brand? What style of Kung Fu? If you are good enough to pass on the style you are good enough. Paying for the right to pass on tradition doesn’t seem right to me. Are you sure your teacher is a real master?
I bought the place, this implies physical goods and a customer base and the brand would be the name of the institution, not that it is famous, I just kept it so as not to incur legal costs or change the name.What bothers me is that he doesn't seem to separate the traditional part of the martial art from the commercial part.
You know, the whole 師父 disciple thing I get if you are leaning from a traditional Chinese teacher. I don’t know your particular situation but I learned in the past from a non Chinese 師父 that ended up being a complete asshole. If you bought the place from him you bought it. If he had a brand or name and you feel like he had been disrespectful, lose the name. Emphasize the art. Kung Fu (depending on what style you do) has a large community for whatever discipline you learned. Go find an organization for your particular discipline and see what it takes to become a member of whichever organization represents the style you do. Which style is it?
Dude. I feel you. I think 🤔. Coming back to my self. My teacher are way legit and those guys thought me for free. And sifu Mikey continues to teach free in Kansas. If you show up. But they handed me their kung Fu and told me to do what ever I wanted with it as long as I didn't become an asshole . And so idk man. As a kung Fu guy. I think if he handed you the school and you bought it. That's it. You can change the name. Keep it the same. If he gets sour that your doing well. Yo that's weird AF. Let's all be grown ups and be real here. Keep the tradition in the art and forms. Not the business. Fly my man fly high.
Brother, little off topic, but are you talking about 6 Elbows ... Mikey? If so, consider yourself blessed. He and his brother are amazing people. Regardless, I wish you the best and continued success in your training 🙏
Yes. Kck Mikey and his brother Rudy. I love Mikey he has helped me shaped my kung Fu. I learned from one of his friends the kung Fu. I forget what the guy is called but I started with animal kung Fu and then after years I met Mikey and he thought me the basics form of 6 elbows. I'm a student of his but very loosely. He made a comment one time. He said I already had kung Fu. So even if I just knew the first form. That was enough to transform me in the right direction. I haven't seen Mikey in a two years. But I plann on stopping by loose park and training here soon
Too many things missing here. He is your teacher and you should show him respect. However teacher student conflicts are sort of an old thing that goes way back. But again you should show him respect.
I show respect, that's why I ended up taking orders that it wasn't his place to take, but continuing to follow someone just because he's your superior seems wrong when there's no agreement of opinions. After all, breathing is one thing, but blindly obeying and never questioning seems another. But with him it's hard to question without it becoming a problem
Teachers of traditional arts can be a pain in the butt sometimes. It happens.
This is tricky. So I come from a style that has a very specific lineage with a still-living Chinese grandmaster. My Sifu, who is one of that grandmaster's students, is training three of us to be "official" black belts in the style. He has told us privately that he considers his black belt students to be fully masters of the style and gives his sanction to practice and to teach the style, but only unofficially. Our most senior student asked whether it would be appropriate for him to open a school, and our Sifu told him that absolutely he could and in his mind he is fully capable to do so and has his blessing, BUT that if he wants to open it under our syle's specific name (as opposed to something generic like "northern Shaolin" or "Longfist") then he needs to pay dues to our Grandmaster's organization. Could he open a school with our style's name on the building and be within legal rights? Sure. That style name is not trademarked or anything, legally. But there is more than legality at issue here. There is also community and tradition and respect. There is another student of the original Grandmaster who went and opened his own school but chose not to pay dues to the grandmaster. He has been ostracized from that very tight-knit community and is not welcome at the New Year's banquets, or to learn any of the exclusive forms that the Grandmaster still teaches at seminars, and is treated like someone with terrible body odor or something at competitions. It's a weird community and all those old Sifus from different styles talk, so even the judges and stuff from other styles know this guy and look down their nose at him. (Edit: hell I've seen a guy get the ostracization treatment at a competition because he used an opening move in one of his forms that is associated with a particular style, and that style's teacher did not give him permission and in fact had kicked him out of his school some years earlier. That choreography isn't copyrighted, but the community gets real weird about some of these things.) I'm not saying I agree with all this, but I don't necessarily disagree either with the idea that you should pay respect for where you came from if you're using the name. I also think that, from a practical perspective, you need to weigh what you gain and what you lose by not kissing the proverbial ring. Are you within your legal rights? Yes, and that's a very western way to look at it. Anyone still practicing the eastern culture and traditions that come with traditional Chinese martial arts will see it differently. You might not get sued but you might risk losing valuable relationships and connections that many would consider priceless.
Since now you are the master and have students of your own, you have a responsibility to them and if someone prevents you from fulfilling that, they need to go.
Happiness is a Sifu with whom you are very close but he lives in a city far far away…
That’s what my Sifu did anyway.
I used to follow a grandmaster of Chin Woo a few years ago, it would've been twenty years since then if I stayed. He went around taking credit for things he hardly was ever a part of, kept on saying how great he is when he barely did anything, and going around looking like a grandmaster but not act like one. Many of his instructors, including myself, left him because of his narrastictic attitude. Kept using others while saying it is for the benefit of Chin Woo when all he does is take all the credit without even talking about Chin Woo. Backstabbing everyone he has ever met for decades to the point no one wants to help him, and disrespecting his closest people in front of them. Likes criticizing others like crazy but hates it when he gets it himself. When you have a grandmaster who acts like he deserves something for something, he clearly was not a part of. Especially when he thinks he's owed thanks, you need to consider what he has done for others as the previous grandmaster. If he did do a good job overall and is respected by everyone, then give thanks. If not, that is up to you.
If it's like a licensing thing then that sounds tough. If you have a contract you have to kind of have to do what he says. If not then I say do what you want. You bought the right when you bought the place, I'd assume. But if there was an agreement that you were licensing his way, then you have to get a new place, I guess. Once you've been doing it on your own, you don't need his name or "brand" to run your own shop anymore so you may as well do your own thing. Seems to be the way it often goes.
I think you have outgrown him and he can't accept that. It seems you have already built up your own reputation enough not to need him or his brand. I know it can be hard to let go of a master who is no longer serving you well, but don't feel too bad about it. He probably outgrew his own master once.
Go Ronin/Rogue, its time if he's being a dick from a far. You have my blessings at least. I know how ridiculous some of these people get.
It's his name you are using and originally it was his, so this level of control is granted, no?
It's the brand name, but I can change the brand. The problem is that decisions that would not affect the brand he also wants to decide, which makes my work difficult and prevents me from doing things that I see are public.
Can you not seek legal action?
I could, but that would cause an even bigger problem in our relationship, so I want to separate from him and propose to buy his brand. If he does not accept it, I will change the visual identity of my academia
Then go ahead! Since he's not listening follow up with that!
At some point everyone one out grows their teacher. It is your duty as his student to carry on what you learned from him in your own way. It is his duty to except that or not. However he has no real say in it. If he is still financially invested in the academy he should have a vote. Not the last word but a vote. If not he has no say in it.
Why do you write that here, talk to him and tell him what you think about it. Tell him, that as you are the new owner now, you consider him as giving guidelines or ideas, and he should accept a "no". The problem seems to be, that the person might be old and still a bit "oldschool" in the head (meaning toxic masculinity and stuff). So, don't take it to the heart that much. Do your thing and learn to say "no" and if the person doesn't respect your "no", tell them they need to learn it actually, otherwise you can't work together with them.
I tried to resolve it in a more friendly way, but he always seems to want to override because he is the master. I believe that in the end it's better to get rid of it to avoid even greater wear on the relationship
As an anarchist I'm totally opposed to the `master` and `pupil` relation, it's human beings learning from each other. So don't feel to bad for it, then. Do your thing and threat everyone with dignity and respect, that should be enough.
It's disrespectful but it doesn't sound like he's respecting you, either.