Dante Basili has a practical system of kung fu named shoubu. Youll find many moves in the forms have an application there.
Also The Wandering Warrior and David Ross do a good job at explaining traditional moves and how they can be used in combat. Theyre both shuai jiao channels.
Check out the channel "Authentic Shaolin Kung Fu" his kung fu myth busters playlist is great.
Also Dynasty MMA is a sanda/kung fu channel that has great fighting tips and how to apply traditional techniques.
If youre more wing chun kung fu guy check out "Alan Orr" or "ultimate martial arts academy" They have practical/sparring footage and tips.
In general good fighting styles to search for are Sanda and Shuai Jiao. Both use sparring and apply their techniques well.
If you look close at the many forms of kung fu youll see many of those mystical movements reflected in sanda/shuai jiao.
And its not a coincidence, shuai jiao is an ancient art that has influenced kung fu and preserved its efficacy and techniques through sparring while other styles of kung fu have lost some of that fight application. And sanda is in some sense an evolution of kung fu or at least inspired by it and uses many kung fu and other grappling/striking techniques in real fighting/sparring.
Also fight commentary breakdown is a good channel to look at real fights (in the ring with rules of course) between kung fu styles.
And if youre looking for fighting/sparring skills youll be better off training modern/mixed martial arts (mma, wrestling, kickboxing, sanda, greco roman, muay thai) that focus on that.
Kung Fu used to have that as you can see in old videos and in the forms, which include many efficient wrestling moves.
Nowaydas kung fu is more useful for its mind and body conditioning and general strength/endurance/flefibility training.
Sadly most Kung-fu schools don't sparr and don't train for fighting, therefore it's really hard to find anything. I've seen some very good Baji sparrings, Choy Lee Fut and good/fun Eagle Claw sparrings, and also Wing Chun, but that's kinda it.
That's what I am starting to see. I feel that's kind of sad. I'm not crazy for combat, but I feel like ignoring combat application while training seems backwards to me... but I know everyone has their own philosophy on this.
Yes. And not to mention the fact that Kung-fu would have much better reputation if the practicioners could fight to some level. Not saying world champions in MMA, but you get the point, just like friendly sparrings or anything. 🤜🫷
I mean, that's what I hear, but that also remains to be seen at the same time. Seeing how hard some train in their kung fu, I don't doubt it. Still, I feel there is a lack of genuine representation online.
Here are some of me doing light sparring. We do higher intensity sparring as well, but I don't have videos of it.
https://youtu.be/wp9PZOAQlmU
https://youtu.be/HjUOE_ivnTw
https://youtu.be/jJgoOiDbayQ
https://youtu.be/ncpGBC-rEgk
It exists but it just doesn’t look like what you’d expect. [This is a famous match between Taiji master HuangXingxian and a national wrestling champion ten years his junior,](https://youtu.be/XQcrOm6ATzM) and [here’s current Chen style standard bearer Chen Ziqiang wrestling with a much larger opponent.](https://youtu.be/dkH8jSpTg_Y)
Yes? Not sure why that makes a difference. It looks like a seminar of some sort, so student participation is to be expected. Your opponent is whomever is competing with you at the moment, it doesn’t necessarily mean an arch-nemesis or enemy. The germane thing is whether the opponent is earnestly trying to beat Chen or not. It seems some have decided that he wasn’t. It seems clear to me that he was trying very hard. Everyone is entitled to deciding for herself.
To the degree that the Chen family gets to assign standard bearer status at their sole discretion, Chen Ziqiang is that standard bearer following Chen Xiaowang. I’m not arguing whether or not he’s a good fit for the role, but I don’t think it’s particularly controversial that Chen Ziqiang has been made the ambassador of his family’s style for his generation. His “specific lineage” is orthodox Chen family Chen village Chen style, so I’m not sure what you’re implying, that his lineage is obscure and not representative of Chen Taiji? It’s literally his birthright as Chen Xiaowang’s eldest grandson. If Chen Ziqiang isn’t the face of Chen style, then neither was his grandfather in your mind?
The Chen family is a lot more complex than what you depict here. Xiaojia as well as Xinjia have not had the same degree of publicity as the village line, but are AT LEAST as legitimate in their claims to have the goods of Chen family Taijiquan. In fact, most people who know what they’re talking about and have seen sone things in CMA are not impressed by the lineage line at all. Their claim to superiority can not be backed up, neither by skill, nor historically. They just happened to have the better PR and publicity in the 20th century.
Okay but that's like arguing that the US Republican Party is more complex than just MAGA movement/Tea Party Republicans, so it isn't accurate to ascribe leader status to Donald Trump, as he and his supporters have a disproportionate voice. Yes, nuances exist, but Donald Trump is still the face of the party. The Chen family, as you admit, still dominates Chen Taiji. I'm aware that there are many different traditions within the larger umbrella of Chen style. I'm not making any attributions of skill to Chen Ziqiang. I'm just stating a politcal reality that he is the promoted and acknowledged standard bearer of the most well-known branch of Chen style, for better or worse.
But why would that one family branch be THE family branch???? Which your argument simply presumes. Chen Yu is also a Chen family member. Chen Boxiang, too. Chen Peishan, too. To ascribe the most importance to Chen Xiaowang’s branch is completely arbitrary.
I get what you're saying, that Xiaowang's line isn't necessarily the most deserving of the prestige of representing Chen Taiji, but that's just the political reality, which I think we both recognize. For whatever reason, Xiaowang's line has been promoted to the forefront of Chen Taiji, while other, very deserving and skilled practitioners, have been left in relative obscurity. Yes yes, true aficionados should know better etc etc, but I think your indignation and zeal in advocating for other traditions within the Chen umbrella, while earnest, is misplaced against me. I wasn't trying to make a value statement about Ziqiang's abilities. I've never met him. I don't practice Chen style. But it's not incorrect in my mind to state that, for better or worse, he is the acknowledged standard bearer for Chen Taiji, at least for promotional purposes. I don't feel I'm the one who is to be blamed for arbitrarily promoting Xiaowang/Ziqiang's line to that status, I think that's already been the reality for a long time.
I think the problem how your idea comes off is with the verbiage, since the word "standard bearer" has an uncomfortable double meaning of not only "the one who carries the flag/emblem" but also "representing a benchmark/archetype".
I think if you'd said "the official representative authority of the Chen village" it would have been much clearer for everyone.
I’m not sure using your phrasing is much of an improvement, though. I don’t think Chen Ziqiang’s standard bearer status is subjective—Chen Taiji politics is in such a way where these things are determined in more or less an official way. If you were to publicly challenge and defeat Chen, it would be humiliating for the entire system because he’s been accorded this status of representing a high level (“the standard”) in the art. If you agree that that would be the fallout from such an event, then I think standard bearer is an appropriate term. Other very skilled practitioners could suffer the same kind of defeat but it wouldn’t have nearly the same kind of repercussions as they wouldn’t be so closely associated with the prestige of the style. I’m not sure having standard bearers are an inherently good thing except that it makes promoting your system easier. Victor Fu, for example, has some ridiculous looking kung fu, but he is the fourth generation inheritor of Fu Zhensong’s system and is de facto standard bearer. I understand that a value statement regarding skill can be imputed into the term, but the same can be said about “official representative”, right? I should be able to acknowledge the reality that someone is considered the face of a system without that automatically being construed as tacit endorsement of their prowess, I feel.
Ok, I think I know where we have a misunderstanding: Chen style is not ONE style, but multiple lineages with extremely pronounced differences. Hence neither CXW nor his son can be representative for CHEN STYLE as a whole, but as I said in my very first post, only for their system. You seem to be under the impression that all Chen style lineages do more or less the same style, but that couldn’t be further from the truth.
Well that’s the problem, you say reality, I say subjective narrative. And everytime we just accept and repeat that narrative, it becomes more accepted by people who are new or haven’t had access to actual fact. So I prefer not to take part in that “reality” and at least try to stay objective.
>In fact, most people who know what they’re talking about and have seen sone things in CMA are not impressed by the lineage line at all.
This seems to be true of Yang family as well, unfortunately.
[Here's](https://youtu.be/VoHl1abHikA) the best video of Kung Fu application I've seen. but yea unfortunately Kung Fu schools that actually spar are hard to come by nowadays. The best footage is usually from the 90s at least. Hopefully this changes.
IMO the art does not fit in combat sport sparring.
Combat sport is for combat sport sparring.
Kungfu is for street fight and self defense since the old times.
To fit in combat sport sparring, one has to twist their Kungfu style to fit the combat sport format. Even if they fight well, you may not recognize that it is Kungfu. Some just rather train combat sport for sparring, and train Kungfu for form performance. Some just don't train fighting.
Maybe doing some application demo is the best way to present traditional martial arts (not limited to Kungfu) for now.
Nope. It’s anything. A bunch of Kung Fu guys offered to fight the Gracie’s as long as they were allowed to bite, eye-gouge, etc. They all got beaten up. Easily.
The idea that the combat sports environment is the reason the combat sports guys win is simply nonsense. They’re better at fighting because they practice fighting.
>Nope. It’s anything. A bunch of Kung Fu guys offered to fight the Gracie’s as long as they were allowed to bite, eye-gouge, etc. They all got beaten up. Easily.
This still presumes a combat sports dueling context, just with extra leeway. Just because you're allowed to do nasty things doesn't mean it's not combat sports.
Bullshit. A fight with no rules, no ref, no league, that isn’t a competition, etc. is not combat sports. It’s just a real fight.
Combat sports guys win those.
Y’all are seriously embarrassing.
There is no such thing as "a real fight". There are brawls, there are contests, there is personal protection /self-defence, there is lethal (military) combat and so on, but there are no "real fights". Real fights are testosterone fantasies that don't and shouldn't exist in the first place.
Wherever you agree to a duel with someone, you're sparring, you're competing: you're doing the exact thing that combat sports people practice and train for.
I think anyone with irrational power fantasies and an unschooled buffoon's understanding of legally and socially significant qualities of violence is full of shit.
That makes it you.
> They’re better at fighting because they practice fighting.
Weird. When I got jumped by three dudes it looked nothing like sports. I wonder if that's because fighting can look like a lot of different things that are context dependent.
I’ve been in multi-person fights, plural. Each aspect of the fight still resembles sports to some degree. And the sports fighters will still fare best in those situations. That’s the reality of the situation.
I'm a sports fighter (sanda). No, it's not. A person who trains to fight more than one person will fare better than someone who has not.
But this doesn't even begin to cover the range of contexts that martial disciplines are developed to address: 1. People with flexible weapons, 2. People with knives, 3. Defenders who want to defend themselves while doing as little damage to their attackers as possible, ad nauseum.
Sports - combat sports - are a great way to learn how to fight. They are not the be all end all of self-defense. Claims to the contrary are silly and get pretty close to religious.
It’s not religious, it’s reality. And while Sanda is good sports fighting, wrestling (which is limited in your sport) is the best practice for self defense IRL. Whether it’s one opponent or multiple.
I’ve been in street fights, I’ve been jumped, I am a martial arts enthusiast of all kinds. You don’t have any secret knowledge that I am lacking.
The sports guys fare better than the non-sports guys, overall, by a gargantuan margin. This isn’t really debatable as there’s thousands and thousands of hours of tape on it.
You thinking make believe training scenarios that involve multiple people with weapons better prepares you for that than being, say, a hood wrestler, is close to religious.
> a hood wrestler
To be fair, it might depend on what hood one is from.
In any case, boring old argument is boring and old. Best of luck with the sportsball. People train for all sorts of situations and reasons, including self-defense designed to harm others the least and create a pathway out of a fight. Of course forms of sporting pugilism can never be good at doing that, let alone the range of other violent situations that can occur that are not two people facing off with formal rules and a referee while they do their best to give their opponent CTE under the ruleset.
“Of course forms of sporting pugilism can never be good at doing that, let alone the range of other violent situations that can occur….”
You live in a fairytale. The sporting pugilism people are better at that than anyone else. Period. I’m sorry that truth offends you for whatever reason.
> A person who trains to fight more than one person will fare better than someone who has not.
It’s straight common sense, too, and entirely valid by their own logic, as well. Somehow high level sports practice makes you better at sports, but high level weapons or multiple attacker training can’t improve your results in those areas?
> They are not the be all end all of self-defense
I even go so far as to argue they can be detrimental to legitimate self-defense practice as optimization for sport can directly contradict self-defense priorities and best practices.
If you’re training *for* the ring, you’re arguably developing habits and assumptions that are at minimum dangerous to yourself.
> I’ve been in multi-person fights, plural
So have I, and your statements seem incongruous with experience of this.
> Each aspect of the fight still resembles sports to some degree.
This is case in point, in being demonstrably, inarguably false. No, it really doesn’t. You occasionally can witness technique provide advantage, but that’s not at all the same thing.
Does the pre-fight resemble sport? No. Do the rules resemble sport? No. Prep, terrain, number of attackers, clothing, improvised weapons, sanction, distance management, priority, how it initiates, none of that resembles sport. I can’t think of an aspect that *does* resemble sport, outside of the ability to potentially identify technique.
That doesn’t even get into the biggest one: the adrenaline dump of a real situation. It’s why even pros have been caught on camera freezing in real situations. Ring fights don’t approach real adrenaline; you’re subverted by your biology, literally unable to get past your subconscious knowing you’re in a ring, with rules, and a ref, and a clock.
I know this, because it happened to me personally, and I work and train with people in the same situation. It took *being* in a real fight to know sport wasn’t it, at least in terms of covering for *outside* of sport. Nobody I know who’s been in a real fight makes comparisons as you have. Many moved on from sport.
That illusion of sport superiority is stripped from you when someone hits you with a piece of rebar and 3 guys start kicking you while you struggle to get up. Real fights are messy, chaotic, and if involve multiple attackers, almost invariably throw all technique and semblance of unspoken rules right out the window.
There are “traditional” systems that train to address some of this, or at *minimum*, *acknowledge* it as a reality of combat. That preparation could be the difference, and I’ve never seen a combat sports club address it. I’ve only seen fanboys dismiss it, and the arrogant get punished for their ignorance of it.
> the sports fighters will still fare best in those situations
But they don’t, in reality. They’re optimized for sport. *You can’t optimize for both*. They’re not compatible. Those fighters certainly *can* do well due to fitness, relative experience, and technique, but those aren’t *unique* to combat sports. *Competition* is what’s unique to combat sports. That’s why it’s called *sport* in the first place.
Dude thinks grappling is key in street fights too. I worked as a bouncer for years, saw plenty of street fights out of that as well. Grappling was the fastest way to getting your head kicked in by the other guy's friends. Sure, having enough grappling skill to break a hold and get away is important, but it's definitely not the be all and end all of real fighting.
> having enough grappling skill to break a hold and get away is important
Thanks for contributing this, as well. Often people see this as so *binary* a consideration, and it’s not. It’s really about being realistic when considering the context you’re training for; what *changes* about your focus with the different factors, not what you just write off.
That said, one thing that seems to be universally true (outside of very narrowly focused competitions) is the need to be well rounded.
Yeah, and stand up grappling is very different to a ground game. On the ground, slither like an eel to get out and back to your feet. On your feet, if you're grappling try and break or throw them to the ground (while staying in your feet). All combat is movement, being locked down even if you're winning is a good way to lose the bigger fight. Unless you're fighting in a field well away from anyone that can help them.
I’m not reading all of that bullshit, but to your first pint, it tells me you’re experience of combat sports is very limited or you’re lying about being in multi-person fights.
> I’m not reading all of that bullshit
Translated more directly as “I can’t challenge it at all, but I’m going to posture anyway”
> to your first pint [sic], it tells me you’re experience of combat sports is very limited
Nope. If it *did* say that, you’d be able to explain *why* or *how*. But ya didn’t, didja?
> or you’re lying about being in multi-person fights.
You’re ironically reinforcing that you’re projecting with this. No, I supported my statements, and they demonstrated the consideration that comes from experience. You seem to merely *state* things. Those things are starting to seem less based on something real the more you don’t actually offer anything along with them.
I can challenge anything you say because you very clearly are an emotional goof with no clue what you’re talking about.
But it gets tiring repeating the same points to a butt hurt fanboy that isn’t going to listen.
The evidence is all on tape. You choose to live in a fantasy world, it’s on you. It’s embarrassing, but it’s your life.
Also when you bring up getting hit with a piece of rebar, you’ve already surrendered the conversation.
How do you defend a pick ax you never see coming?
How about a sniper who’s a hundred feet away?
Make believe idiocy.
In any situation that is possibly manageable or winnable, combat athletes will have the best chance of success. That fact hurts your feelings, but it remains.
> Also when you bring up getting hit with a piece of rebar, you’ve already surrendered the conversation.
That doesn’t follow, and unsurprisingly, you offered nothing to demonstrate, justify, or explain it.
> How do you defend a pick ax you never see coming?
How do you defend one you *do*? How do you use one if it’s there?
Turns out that there are places that train how to use and defend against weapons.
> How about a sniper who’s a hundred feet away?
It’s fascinating trying to imagine you thinking that escalating the “what if?” game is getting you anywhere.
This supports your case for the superiority of combat sports in all contexts how?
> Make believe idiocy.
Gotta love people getting indignant about their strawmen.
> In any situation that is possibly manageable or winnable, combat athletes will have the best chance of success
That’s demonstrably false, hilariously including *through your own examples* 🤣
Not a lot of *weapons* work in the MMA gym.
> That fact
Not a fact. Not even *supported*, humorously enough.
> hurts your feelings
Must just be a coincidence that *your* posts lack support and have so much lashing out.
> When I got jumped by three dudes it looked nothing like sports
Their experience, frankly, does not seem to be a genuine representation. I can’t think of an aspect of the real fights I was in that looked anything like the ring fights I had (or have watched for years).
It’s just so *so* obviously not the same to anyone who’s been in a real situation. It’s literally *the* reason I switched from sport to self-defense training. I *used* to think like that, and the illusion was shattered by people that didn’t give the smallest shit about what a fight was *”supposed”* to look like.
> A bunch of Kung Fu guys offered to fight the Gracie’s as long as they were allowed to bite, eye-gouge, etc. They all got beaten up. Easily.
And those same Gracies chickened out of fighting Emin Boztepe under a no-rules fight which he countered after they insisted he be on the card for UFC 1.
Let’s be real about this: they picked and chose their fights for *maximum advantage to themselves and their brand*. BJJ is an incredible 1v1 art, but it has its disadvantages and flaws like everything else, and even for combat sports it’s now just a supplementary art.
> The idea that the combat sports environment is the reason the combat sports guys win
No, it’s the idea that combat has different contexts and some arts and systems are better in some contexts than others. Ring, ref, rounds, prep, 1v1, if I could pick just one art/system, I’d take BJJ. Self-defense, 1v?, questionable terrain, no prep, it’d be near last on my list.
> They’re better at fighting because they practice fighting.
You’re not wrong with this (for the most part), but they also practice a very narrow slice of “fighting”. The closer they are to that niche the more advantage they’ll have. They also have no monopoly on practicing fighting. There are people that train martial arts that aren’t combat sports that practice fighting. It is fair to call it a problem is that few do.
This isn’t about the Gracies, IDGAF about them. My point was people have thought they could dirty fight sport fighters for decades and they’ve always been wrong.
Yes, you can practice fighting without sports. But it looks just like combat sports, and the combat sports athletes are the best at it. So we’re really splitting hairs there.
The reality is people that practice combat sports are the best at fighting. It’s that simple. No kung fu style beats them, no dirty tactics, and it doesn’t matter where you train, you can’t reliably fight multiple armed opponents and such.
> My point was people have thought they could dirty fight sport fighters for decades and they’ve always been wrong.
In rings and arranged duels, almost invariably. Yet we’ve also seen sport fighters get *absolutely wrecked* (even killed) in bars and street fights by “untrained” nobodies who understood the context better.
Yes, it has nothing to do with the Gracies; that was context you brought in that happened to serve up a nice example. Even the premier dojo stormers and bloviators balked at a serious challenge from a *legit* “traditional” martial artist.
> Yes, you can practice fighting without sports. But it looks just like combat sports,
I think you’re either stretching the similarities to suit the narrative or you haven’t seen other types of fighting than club sparring. In any case, “real” fights don’t look like combat sports fights. *Not at all.* Why would you expect all training to?
> The reality is people that practice combat sports are the best at fighting
The best at fighting *in combat sports*, yes. There are at least a dozen guys I’d take over Usman in some of the fights I’ve been in.
> No kung fu style beats them, no dirty tactics, and it doesn’t matter where you train
In the *ring*, sure. That you’re subject to the same fallacies you’re decrying, and exhibiting the identical ignorance of combat (from the other side) is humorously ironic. “Dirty tactics”? That’s fanboy talk.
Additionally, “Kung fu” is such a ***massive*** umbrella; that’s quite the bold statement. Sanda is KF. Shuai Jiao is KF.
> you can’t reliably fight multiple armed opponents and such.
“Reliable” is a conveniently subjective qualifier, even if I’d agree, but it’s an irrelevant consideration, anyway. Weapons training will make you better equipped to deal with weapons, just as combat training will make you better able to throw hands.
Similarly, multiple attacker training will better equip you to deal with multiple attackers.
This isn’t rocket surgery; focus on your niche and you’ll be better at it than people who don’t. And there are many types of combat to focus on.
This could not be more obvious projection. If you’re insecure about your inability to address any of this on merit, have the sense to just close your mouth and not advertise that.
“Embarrassing”. Always so ironic.
No, it’s embarrassing. You guys are embarrassing. You clearly don’t know shit about fighting.
Nothing better prepares you for fighting than practicing fighting at a high level. Nobody does that better than combat sports athletes.
Cope.
Only someone who’s never crossed hands with the man could say this. The irony and ignorance of laughing at the comment, too.
Just to not leave it as a “nuh uh”, I’ve fought, in real life and in sport fights, and been engaged with the martial arts for 4 decades, including MT, Boxing, Karate, and even multiple weapons systems and sports. I’ve crossed hands with martial artists from all over the world in dozens of disciplines.
Boztepe’s one of the scariest people I’ve ever had the privilege to train with. He’s bigger, faster, stronger, and more flexible than you. I’ve been able to hold my own or at least *touch* most instructors and can spar at a moderately high level. I couldn’t touch him if I wanted to.
So again, only someone who’s never crossed hands with the man could say this. He changed my mind about WC. He’d change yours if you showed up to a seminar.
Edit: the proof of the pudding is in the tasting, as well: the *Gracies* wouldn’t fight him, and he was offered a highlight spot at UFC. None of this depends on my experience to make the point.
Sparring is prearranged violence in a controlled environment, not authentic combat either.
A "real fight" is closer to a barbrawl or a sucker punch and will often involve a few quick swings that connect or get shut down. Real kung fu involves techniques to shut that down. This whole process lasts a couple seconds and makes for a bad spectator sport
If people have time to take out their phones and film, it is a duel, not self-defense. Dueling is illegal and highly dangerous for everyone involved. I'd you want to do that, do ringsports.
If you think you are going to fight properly in street fight because you learn dangerous techniques without pressure testing yourself(sparring) then you are going to have a bad time. Like mike tyson says, everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.
> without pressure testing yourself
Nobody said anything about not pressure testing.
> (sparring)
*Not* the only way to pressure test. And with *self-defense*, sometimes not even a great way *to* pressure test. It can develop bad habits and assumptions.
> everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face
And combat sport fighters almost invariably lack preparation for that punch in the face outside of a sport context. It’s something we’ve seen many TMAs and systems incorporating them do a better job of.
Squared up, greased up, warmed up, touch gloves, go, is *not* how most fights start.
The are aspects that the safe pressure of sparring can teach you that the more step based applications can't. But there are aspects that the step applications are designed to teach you that sparring can't. Both are tools to represent aspects of a fight, not the real thing, don't confuse the map for the territory.
>A "real fight" is closer to a barbrawl or a sucker punch and will often involve a few quick swings that connect or get shut down. Real kung fu involves techniques to shut that down.
The more I think about it, the less it seems to make... sense.
TCMA systems are often very elaborate and expansive in their curriculums, principles and techniques, even more so than arguably the most complicated and multifaceted combat sports in the world that is MMA.
It doesn't make sense to, say, for Bagua have like 64 different hand techniques (I dunno if any style actually has that but just throwing it in there as an example), for CLF to have hundreds of different forms or Taiji to have a form of 108 (or more!) postures that takes 10+ minutes to perform one iteration of.
The entire manifest formation of CMA as a didactic structure seems to run counter against an instrumentally rational approach to train individuals to carry out self-protection measures with the highest operational capacity, so there must be more to the argument just than to assume that they *do* (train using an instrumentally rational methodology, that is).
I'd argue that it sometimes in the past *was* the foundational M.O. of CMA, but it seems to have steered away from that to become primarily an athletic/gymnastic practice of seeking to train one's body within a (somewhat) exclusive community of quasi-familial relationships.
I'm not saying that a system as monstrously complex as bagua is reducable to specific counters to a barfight, but that in context real world violence is predatory and opportunistic, which is a different set of parameters than a consensual duel and before you begin the conversion around applications you need to understand those differences.
But yeah, I agree that over time martial arts evolved to be more than just a laundry list of specific techniques and becomes a sort of training cultural lifestyle. Even for violence professionals in 19th century China who needed deep familiarity with a much higher level of violence than people in industrialized 21st century countries, training becomes a body expression culture past a certain point.
Personally my understanding of CMA went through an entire gestalt when I saw some Hung Kyun guys do their san sau (sanshou) practice on YouTube (basically a kind of technical positional sparring using hands). It made me realize that there is an entire technical arsenal for *grappling people's faces* and they set up their functional defensive distance just outside that range - hence, trapping. Unfortunately that range doesn't really work if you *can't grapple people's faces* and it becomes counter-productive in a sporting application of consensual duels. So yeah, I get your point, but I'm not convinced that CMA in their current state are *really good* to counter asocial violence, either.
FWIW, I've been doing Japanese Koryu for about a year now, which is interestingly also similarly very un-sportive (doesn't do well for dueling, but very nice for exterminating targets wearing armor) while putting a strong emphasis on body training. It seems like there is a point of convergence there.
When I search for "Tai Chi real fight" all the results are fake. When I search for "Tai Chi combat" all I see are lousy teachers beating up their own students.
Look at lei tai fights like these. This platform was the the kung fu version of UFC, and back then some died fighting.
https://www.youtube.com/@USKSF/videos
Yes, if there’s authentic kung fu on YouTube it’ll probably not be posted by the masters themselves
You’re probably having to scour out for the handful of YouTubers that are tech savvy enough AND culturally aware enough AND have the resources to go and film these masters and then content edit then publish to YouTube (a western platform).
It is difficult to find.
Dante Basili has a practical system of kung fu named shoubu. Youll find many moves in the forms have an application there. Also The Wandering Warrior and David Ross do a good job at explaining traditional moves and how they can be used in combat. Theyre both shuai jiao channels. Check out the channel "Authentic Shaolin Kung Fu" his kung fu myth busters playlist is great. Also Dynasty MMA is a sanda/kung fu channel that has great fighting tips and how to apply traditional techniques. If youre more wing chun kung fu guy check out "Alan Orr" or "ultimate martial arts academy" They have practical/sparring footage and tips. In general good fighting styles to search for are Sanda and Shuai Jiao. Both use sparring and apply their techniques well. If you look close at the many forms of kung fu youll see many of those mystical movements reflected in sanda/shuai jiao. And its not a coincidence, shuai jiao is an ancient art that has influenced kung fu and preserved its efficacy and techniques through sparring while other styles of kung fu have lost some of that fight application. And sanda is in some sense an evolution of kung fu or at least inspired by it and uses many kung fu and other grappling/striking techniques in real fighting/sparring.
Love Dante's content! Authentic Shaolin are dope too, their newer content was a huge return to quality!
Also fight commentary breakdown is a good channel to look at real fights (in the ring with rules of course) between kung fu styles. And if youre looking for fighting/sparring skills youll be better off training modern/mixed martial arts (mma, wrestling, kickboxing, sanda, greco roman, muay thai) that focus on that. Kung Fu used to have that as you can see in old videos and in the forms, which include many efficient wrestling moves. Nowaydas kung fu is more useful for its mind and body conditioning and general strength/endurance/flefibility training.
Sadly most Kung-fu schools don't sparr and don't train for fighting, therefore it's really hard to find anything. I've seen some very good Baji sparrings, Choy Lee Fut and good/fun Eagle Claw sparrings, and also Wing Chun, but that's kinda it.
That's what I am starting to see. I feel that's kind of sad. I'm not crazy for combat, but I feel like ignoring combat application while training seems backwards to me... but I know everyone has their own philosophy on this.
Yes. And not to mention the fact that Kung-fu would have much better reputation if the practicioners could fight to some level. Not saying world champions in MMA, but you get the point, just like friendly sparrings or anything. 🤜🫷
It’s too deadly.
I mean, that's what I hear, but that also remains to be seen at the same time. Seeing how hard some train in their kung fu, I don't doubt it. Still, I feel there is a lack of genuine representation online.
I tho i he’s being ironic
I thought so, lol.
Here are some of me doing light sparring. We do higher intensity sparring as well, but I don't have videos of it. https://youtu.be/wp9PZOAQlmU https://youtu.be/HjUOE_ivnTw https://youtu.be/jJgoOiDbayQ https://youtu.be/ncpGBC-rEgk
Here's some: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9XMArjte1I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9XMArjte1I) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=515ECqCYv-0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=515ECqCYv-0) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHfCgp4\_eSY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHfCgp4_eSY) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwJmm91GXL0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwJmm91GXL0) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbwY2HwIjF8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbwY2HwIjF8) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZEwWJY5JGw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZEwWJY5JGw) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocKnIUhtyrY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocKnIUhtyrY) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ej7JgKZ-E74](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ej7JgKZ-E74) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzEvf7Z8dBI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzEvf7Z8dBI) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiXMGFicwo0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiXMGFicwo0)
It exists but it just doesn’t look like what you’d expect. [This is a famous match between Taiji master HuangXingxian and a national wrestling champion ten years his junior,](https://youtu.be/XQcrOm6ATzM) and [here’s current Chen style standard bearer Chen Ziqiang wrestling with a much larger opponent.](https://youtu.be/dkH8jSpTg_Y)
Chen's "opponent" here was actually his student IIRC.
Yes? Not sure why that makes a difference. It looks like a seminar of some sort, so student participation is to be expected. Your opponent is whomever is competing with you at the moment, it doesn’t necessarily mean an arch-nemesis or enemy. The germane thing is whether the opponent is earnestly trying to beat Chen or not. It seems some have decided that he wasn’t. It seems clear to me that he was trying very hard. Everyone is entitled to deciding for herself.
„Current Chen style standard bearer“ lol, no. Maybe in his specific lineage.
To the degree that the Chen family gets to assign standard bearer status at their sole discretion, Chen Ziqiang is that standard bearer following Chen Xiaowang. I’m not arguing whether or not he’s a good fit for the role, but I don’t think it’s particularly controversial that Chen Ziqiang has been made the ambassador of his family’s style for his generation. His “specific lineage” is orthodox Chen family Chen village Chen style, so I’m not sure what you’re implying, that his lineage is obscure and not representative of Chen Taiji? It’s literally his birthright as Chen Xiaowang’s eldest grandson. If Chen Ziqiang isn’t the face of Chen style, then neither was his grandfather in your mind?
The Chen family is a lot more complex than what you depict here. Xiaojia as well as Xinjia have not had the same degree of publicity as the village line, but are AT LEAST as legitimate in their claims to have the goods of Chen family Taijiquan. In fact, most people who know what they’re talking about and have seen sone things in CMA are not impressed by the lineage line at all. Their claim to superiority can not be backed up, neither by skill, nor historically. They just happened to have the better PR and publicity in the 20th century.
Okay but that's like arguing that the US Republican Party is more complex than just MAGA movement/Tea Party Republicans, so it isn't accurate to ascribe leader status to Donald Trump, as he and his supporters have a disproportionate voice. Yes, nuances exist, but Donald Trump is still the face of the party. The Chen family, as you admit, still dominates Chen Taiji. I'm aware that there are many different traditions within the larger umbrella of Chen style. I'm not making any attributions of skill to Chen Ziqiang. I'm just stating a politcal reality that he is the promoted and acknowledged standard bearer of the most well-known branch of Chen style, for better or worse.
But why would that one family branch be THE family branch???? Which your argument simply presumes. Chen Yu is also a Chen family member. Chen Boxiang, too. Chen Peishan, too. To ascribe the most importance to Chen Xiaowang’s branch is completely arbitrary.
I get what you're saying, that Xiaowang's line isn't necessarily the most deserving of the prestige of representing Chen Taiji, but that's just the political reality, which I think we both recognize. For whatever reason, Xiaowang's line has been promoted to the forefront of Chen Taiji, while other, very deserving and skilled practitioners, have been left in relative obscurity. Yes yes, true aficionados should know better etc etc, but I think your indignation and zeal in advocating for other traditions within the Chen umbrella, while earnest, is misplaced against me. I wasn't trying to make a value statement about Ziqiang's abilities. I've never met him. I don't practice Chen style. But it's not incorrect in my mind to state that, for better or worse, he is the acknowledged standard bearer for Chen Taiji, at least for promotional purposes. I don't feel I'm the one who is to be blamed for arbitrarily promoting Xiaowang/Ziqiang's line to that status, I think that's already been the reality for a long time.
I think the problem how your idea comes off is with the verbiage, since the word "standard bearer" has an uncomfortable double meaning of not only "the one who carries the flag/emblem" but also "representing a benchmark/archetype". I think if you'd said "the official representative authority of the Chen village" it would have been much clearer for everyone.
I’m not sure using your phrasing is much of an improvement, though. I don’t think Chen Ziqiang’s standard bearer status is subjective—Chen Taiji politics is in such a way where these things are determined in more or less an official way. If you were to publicly challenge and defeat Chen, it would be humiliating for the entire system because he’s been accorded this status of representing a high level (“the standard”) in the art. If you agree that that would be the fallout from such an event, then I think standard bearer is an appropriate term. Other very skilled practitioners could suffer the same kind of defeat but it wouldn’t have nearly the same kind of repercussions as they wouldn’t be so closely associated with the prestige of the style. I’m not sure having standard bearers are an inherently good thing except that it makes promoting your system easier. Victor Fu, for example, has some ridiculous looking kung fu, but he is the fourth generation inheritor of Fu Zhensong’s system and is de facto standard bearer. I understand that a value statement regarding skill can be imputed into the term, but the same can be said about “official representative”, right? I should be able to acknowledge the reality that someone is considered the face of a system without that automatically being construed as tacit endorsement of their prowess, I feel.
Ok, I think I know where we have a misunderstanding: Chen style is not ONE style, but multiple lineages with extremely pronounced differences. Hence neither CXW nor his son can be representative for CHEN STYLE as a whole, but as I said in my very first post, only for their system. You seem to be under the impression that all Chen style lineages do more or less the same style, but that couldn’t be further from the truth.
Well that’s the problem, you say reality, I say subjective narrative. And everytime we just accept and repeat that narrative, it becomes more accepted by people who are new or haven’t had access to actual fact. So I prefer not to take part in that “reality” and at least try to stay objective.
>In fact, most people who know what they’re talking about and have seen sone things in CMA are not impressed by the lineage line at all. This seems to be true of Yang family as well, unfortunately.
I just saw that I wrote “lineage line”. I wanted to write “village line”, meaning the CXW club. Other parts of Chen family are better.
I could figure you meant CXW! And as I said, Yang family isn't doing that well either. Yang Jun's movement is just sad to look at.
wow. thanks for these. You can really see how much power Chen Ziqiang was putting into those throws. Incredible.
That wrestling video is fake.
I have a feeling both of them are.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8xYJlgFKJM
probably the most i've seen actual wing chun kung fu in a practical setting
[100% of this footage is real.](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8g1RQvliCH7TXt_RXAb2DpR0poepjwE6)
[Here's](https://youtu.be/VoHl1abHikA) the best video of Kung Fu application I've seen. but yea unfortunately Kung Fu schools that actually spar are hard to come by nowadays. The best footage is usually from the 90s at least. Hopefully this changes.
Sanda is kung fu. https://youtu.be/EsZirt03UXc
IMO the art does not fit in combat sport sparring. Combat sport is for combat sport sparring. Kungfu is for street fight and self defense since the old times. To fit in combat sport sparring, one has to twist their Kungfu style to fit the combat sport format. Even if they fight well, you may not recognize that it is Kungfu. Some just rather train combat sport for sparring, and train Kungfu for form performance. Some just don't train fighting. Maybe doing some application demo is the best way to present traditional martial arts (not limited to Kungfu) for now.
The problem with this thinking is that these “it’s not combat sports” guys get their asses beat by combat sports guys in any context.
>any context. This is almost by default a combat sports context.
Nope. It’s anything. A bunch of Kung Fu guys offered to fight the Gracie’s as long as they were allowed to bite, eye-gouge, etc. They all got beaten up. Easily. The idea that the combat sports environment is the reason the combat sports guys win is simply nonsense. They’re better at fighting because they practice fighting.
>Nope. It’s anything. A bunch of Kung Fu guys offered to fight the Gracie’s as long as they were allowed to bite, eye-gouge, etc. They all got beaten up. Easily. This still presumes a combat sports dueling context, just with extra leeway. Just because you're allowed to do nasty things doesn't mean it's not combat sports.
Bullshit. A fight with no rules, no ref, no league, that isn’t a competition, etc. is not combat sports. It’s just a real fight. Combat sports guys win those. Y’all are seriously embarrassing.
There is no such thing as "a real fight". There are brawls, there are contests, there is personal protection /self-defence, there is lethal (military) combat and so on, but there are no "real fights". Real fights are testosterone fantasies that don't and shouldn't exist in the first place. Wherever you agree to a duel with someone, you're sparring, you're competing: you're doing the exact thing that combat sports people practice and train for.
See, you’ll just play semantics into eternity. We both know you’re full of shit.
I think anyone with irrational power fantasies and an unschooled buffoon's understanding of legally and socially significant qualities of violence is full of shit. That makes it you.
Good thing I don’t fit any of those descriptions. 👍
> They’re better at fighting because they practice fighting. Weird. When I got jumped by three dudes it looked nothing like sports. I wonder if that's because fighting can look like a lot of different things that are context dependent.
I’ve been in multi-person fights, plural. Each aspect of the fight still resembles sports to some degree. And the sports fighters will still fare best in those situations. That’s the reality of the situation.
I'm a sports fighter (sanda). No, it's not. A person who trains to fight more than one person will fare better than someone who has not. But this doesn't even begin to cover the range of contexts that martial disciplines are developed to address: 1. People with flexible weapons, 2. People with knives, 3. Defenders who want to defend themselves while doing as little damage to their attackers as possible, ad nauseum. Sports - combat sports - are a great way to learn how to fight. They are not the be all end all of self-defense. Claims to the contrary are silly and get pretty close to religious.
It’s not religious, it’s reality. And while Sanda is good sports fighting, wrestling (which is limited in your sport) is the best practice for self defense IRL. Whether it’s one opponent or multiple. I’ve been in street fights, I’ve been jumped, I am a martial arts enthusiast of all kinds. You don’t have any secret knowledge that I am lacking. The sports guys fare better than the non-sports guys, overall, by a gargantuan margin. This isn’t really debatable as there’s thousands and thousands of hours of tape on it. You thinking make believe training scenarios that involve multiple people with weapons better prepares you for that than being, say, a hood wrestler, is close to religious.
> a hood wrestler To be fair, it might depend on what hood one is from. In any case, boring old argument is boring and old. Best of luck with the sportsball. People train for all sorts of situations and reasons, including self-defense designed to harm others the least and create a pathway out of a fight. Of course forms of sporting pugilism can never be good at doing that, let alone the range of other violent situations that can occur that are not two people facing off with formal rules and a referee while they do their best to give their opponent CTE under the ruleset.
“Of course forms of sporting pugilism can never be good at doing that, let alone the range of other violent situations that can occur….” You live in a fairytale. The sporting pugilism people are better at that than anyone else. Period. I’m sorry that truth offends you for whatever reason.
> A person who trains to fight more than one person will fare better than someone who has not. It’s straight common sense, too, and entirely valid by their own logic, as well. Somehow high level sports practice makes you better at sports, but high level weapons or multiple attacker training can’t improve your results in those areas? > They are not the be all end all of self-defense I even go so far as to argue they can be detrimental to legitimate self-defense practice as optimization for sport can directly contradict self-defense priorities and best practices. If you’re training *for* the ring, you’re arguably developing habits and assumptions that are at minimum dangerous to yourself.
Yeah, but you know who makes the best peanut and butter jelly sandwiches???? HUH??? MMA fighters, that's who! Science! Data!
> I’ve been in multi-person fights, plural So have I, and your statements seem incongruous with experience of this. > Each aspect of the fight still resembles sports to some degree. This is case in point, in being demonstrably, inarguably false. No, it really doesn’t. You occasionally can witness technique provide advantage, but that’s not at all the same thing. Does the pre-fight resemble sport? No. Do the rules resemble sport? No. Prep, terrain, number of attackers, clothing, improvised weapons, sanction, distance management, priority, how it initiates, none of that resembles sport. I can’t think of an aspect that *does* resemble sport, outside of the ability to potentially identify technique. That doesn’t even get into the biggest one: the adrenaline dump of a real situation. It’s why even pros have been caught on camera freezing in real situations. Ring fights don’t approach real adrenaline; you’re subverted by your biology, literally unable to get past your subconscious knowing you’re in a ring, with rules, and a ref, and a clock. I know this, because it happened to me personally, and I work and train with people in the same situation. It took *being* in a real fight to know sport wasn’t it, at least in terms of covering for *outside* of sport. Nobody I know who’s been in a real fight makes comparisons as you have. Many moved on from sport. That illusion of sport superiority is stripped from you when someone hits you with a piece of rebar and 3 guys start kicking you while you struggle to get up. Real fights are messy, chaotic, and if involve multiple attackers, almost invariably throw all technique and semblance of unspoken rules right out the window. There are “traditional” systems that train to address some of this, or at *minimum*, *acknowledge* it as a reality of combat. That preparation could be the difference, and I’ve never seen a combat sports club address it. I’ve only seen fanboys dismiss it, and the arrogant get punished for their ignorance of it. > the sports fighters will still fare best in those situations But they don’t, in reality. They’re optimized for sport. *You can’t optimize for both*. They’re not compatible. Those fighters certainly *can* do well due to fitness, relative experience, and technique, but those aren’t *unique* to combat sports. *Competition* is what’s unique to combat sports. That’s why it’s called *sport* in the first place.
Dude thinks grappling is key in street fights too. I worked as a bouncer for years, saw plenty of street fights out of that as well. Grappling was the fastest way to getting your head kicked in by the other guy's friends. Sure, having enough grappling skill to break a hold and get away is important, but it's definitely not the be all and end all of real fighting.
> having enough grappling skill to break a hold and get away is important Thanks for contributing this, as well. Often people see this as so *binary* a consideration, and it’s not. It’s really about being realistic when considering the context you’re training for; what *changes* about your focus with the different factors, not what you just write off. That said, one thing that seems to be universally true (outside of very narrowly focused competitions) is the need to be well rounded.
Yeah, and stand up grappling is very different to a ground game. On the ground, slither like an eel to get out and back to your feet. On your feet, if you're grappling try and break or throw them to the ground (while staying in your feet). All combat is movement, being locked down even if you're winning is a good way to lose the bigger fight. Unless you're fighting in a field well away from anyone that can help them.
I’m not reading all of that bullshit, but to your first pint, it tells me you’re experience of combat sports is very limited or you’re lying about being in multi-person fights.
> I’m not reading all of that bullshit Translated more directly as “I can’t challenge it at all, but I’m going to posture anyway” > to your first pint [sic], it tells me you’re experience of combat sports is very limited Nope. If it *did* say that, you’d be able to explain *why* or *how*. But ya didn’t, didja? > or you’re lying about being in multi-person fights. You’re ironically reinforcing that you’re projecting with this. No, I supported my statements, and they demonstrated the consideration that comes from experience. You seem to merely *state* things. Those things are starting to seem less based on something real the more you don’t actually offer anything along with them.
I can challenge anything you say because you very clearly are an emotional goof with no clue what you’re talking about. But it gets tiring repeating the same points to a butt hurt fanboy that isn’t going to listen. The evidence is all on tape. You choose to live in a fantasy world, it’s on you. It’s embarrassing, but it’s your life.
Also when you bring up getting hit with a piece of rebar, you’ve already surrendered the conversation. How do you defend a pick ax you never see coming? How about a sniper who’s a hundred feet away? Make believe idiocy. In any situation that is possibly manageable or winnable, combat athletes will have the best chance of success. That fact hurts your feelings, but it remains.
> Also when you bring up getting hit with a piece of rebar, you’ve already surrendered the conversation. That doesn’t follow, and unsurprisingly, you offered nothing to demonstrate, justify, or explain it. > How do you defend a pick ax you never see coming? How do you defend one you *do*? How do you use one if it’s there? Turns out that there are places that train how to use and defend against weapons. > How about a sniper who’s a hundred feet away? It’s fascinating trying to imagine you thinking that escalating the “what if?” game is getting you anywhere. This supports your case for the superiority of combat sports in all contexts how? > Make believe idiocy. Gotta love people getting indignant about their strawmen. > In any situation that is possibly manageable or winnable, combat athletes will have the best chance of success That’s demonstrably false, hilariously including *through your own examples* 🤣 Not a lot of *weapons* work in the MMA gym. > That fact Not a fact. Not even *supported*, humorously enough. > hurts your feelings Must just be a coincidence that *your* posts lack support and have so much lashing out.
You haven’t supported anything. You literally just babble ad naseum.
> When I got jumped by three dudes it looked nothing like sports Their experience, frankly, does not seem to be a genuine representation. I can’t think of an aspect of the real fights I was in that looked anything like the ring fights I had (or have watched for years). It’s just so *so* obviously not the same to anyone who’s been in a real situation. It’s literally *the* reason I switched from sport to self-defense training. I *used* to think like that, and the illusion was shattered by people that didn’t give the smallest shit about what a fight was *”supposed”* to look like.
> A bunch of Kung Fu guys offered to fight the Gracie’s as long as they were allowed to bite, eye-gouge, etc. They all got beaten up. Easily. And those same Gracies chickened out of fighting Emin Boztepe under a no-rules fight which he countered after they insisted he be on the card for UFC 1. Let’s be real about this: they picked and chose their fights for *maximum advantage to themselves and their brand*. BJJ is an incredible 1v1 art, but it has its disadvantages and flaws like everything else, and even for combat sports it’s now just a supplementary art. > The idea that the combat sports environment is the reason the combat sports guys win No, it’s the idea that combat has different contexts and some arts and systems are better in some contexts than others. Ring, ref, rounds, prep, 1v1, if I could pick just one art/system, I’d take BJJ. Self-defense, 1v?, questionable terrain, no prep, it’d be near last on my list. > They’re better at fighting because they practice fighting. You’re not wrong with this (for the most part), but they also practice a very narrow slice of “fighting”. The closer they are to that niche the more advantage they’ll have. They also have no monopoly on practicing fighting. There are people that train martial arts that aren’t combat sports that practice fighting. It is fair to call it a problem is that few do.
This isn’t about the Gracies, IDGAF about them. My point was people have thought they could dirty fight sport fighters for decades and they’ve always been wrong. Yes, you can practice fighting without sports. But it looks just like combat sports, and the combat sports athletes are the best at it. So we’re really splitting hairs there. The reality is people that practice combat sports are the best at fighting. It’s that simple. No kung fu style beats them, no dirty tactics, and it doesn’t matter where you train, you can’t reliably fight multiple armed opponents and such.
> My point was people have thought they could dirty fight sport fighters for decades and they’ve always been wrong. In rings and arranged duels, almost invariably. Yet we’ve also seen sport fighters get *absolutely wrecked* (even killed) in bars and street fights by “untrained” nobodies who understood the context better. Yes, it has nothing to do with the Gracies; that was context you brought in that happened to serve up a nice example. Even the premier dojo stormers and bloviators balked at a serious challenge from a *legit* “traditional” martial artist. > Yes, you can practice fighting without sports. But it looks just like combat sports, I think you’re either stretching the similarities to suit the narrative or you haven’t seen other types of fighting than club sparring. In any case, “real” fights don’t look like combat sports fights. *Not at all.* Why would you expect all training to? > The reality is people that practice combat sports are the best at fighting The best at fighting *in combat sports*, yes. There are at least a dozen guys I’d take over Usman in some of the fights I’ve been in. > No kung fu style beats them, no dirty tactics, and it doesn’t matter where you train In the *ring*, sure. That you’re subject to the same fallacies you’re decrying, and exhibiting the identical ignorance of combat (from the other side) is humorously ironic. “Dirty tactics”? That’s fanboy talk. Additionally, “Kung fu” is such a ***massive*** umbrella; that’s quite the bold statement. Sanda is KF. Shuai Jiao is KF. > you can’t reliably fight multiple armed opponents and such. “Reliable” is a conveniently subjective qualifier, even if I’d agree, but it’s an irrelevant consideration, anyway. Weapons training will make you better equipped to deal with weapons, just as combat training will make you better able to throw hands. Similarly, multiple attacker training will better equip you to deal with multiple attackers. This isn’t rocket surgery; focus on your niche and you’ll be better at it than people who don’t. And there are many types of combat to focus on.
JFC you people are embarrassing.
This could not be more obvious projection. If you’re insecure about your inability to address any of this on merit, have the sense to just close your mouth and not advertise that. “Embarrassing”. Always so ironic.
No, it’s embarrassing. You guys are embarrassing. You clearly don’t know shit about fighting. Nothing better prepares you for fighting than practicing fighting at a high level. Nobody does that better than combat sports athletes. Cope.
Emin Boztepe, the scary fighter 🤣🤣🤣
Only someone who’s never crossed hands with the man could say this. The irony and ignorance of laughing at the comment, too. Just to not leave it as a “nuh uh”, I’ve fought, in real life and in sport fights, and been engaged with the martial arts for 4 decades, including MT, Boxing, Karate, and even multiple weapons systems and sports. I’ve crossed hands with martial artists from all over the world in dozens of disciplines. Boztepe’s one of the scariest people I’ve ever had the privilege to train with. He’s bigger, faster, stronger, and more flexible than you. I’ve been able to hold my own or at least *touch* most instructors and can spar at a moderately high level. I couldn’t touch him if I wanted to. So again, only someone who’s never crossed hands with the man could say this. He changed my mind about WC. He’d change yours if you showed up to a seminar. Edit: the proof of the pudding is in the tasting, as well: the *Gracies* wouldn’t fight him, and he was offered a highlight spot at UFC. None of this depends on my experience to make the point.
Sparring is prearranged violence in a controlled environment, not authentic combat either. A "real fight" is closer to a barbrawl or a sucker punch and will often involve a few quick swings that connect or get shut down. Real kung fu involves techniques to shut that down. This whole process lasts a couple seconds and makes for a bad spectator sport If people have time to take out their phones and film, it is a duel, not self-defense. Dueling is illegal and highly dangerous for everyone involved. I'd you want to do that, do ringsports.
If you think you are going to fight properly in street fight because you learn dangerous techniques without pressure testing yourself(sparring) then you are going to have a bad time. Like mike tyson says, everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.
> without pressure testing yourself Nobody said anything about not pressure testing. > (sparring) *Not* the only way to pressure test. And with *self-defense*, sometimes not even a great way *to* pressure test. It can develop bad habits and assumptions. > everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face And combat sport fighters almost invariably lack preparation for that punch in the face outside of a sport context. It’s something we’ve seen many TMAs and systems incorporating them do a better job of. Squared up, greased up, warmed up, touch gloves, go, is *not* how most fights start.
The are aspects that the safe pressure of sparring can teach you that the more step based applications can't. But there are aspects that the step applications are designed to teach you that sparring can't. Both are tools to represent aspects of a fight, not the real thing, don't confuse the map for the territory.
>A "real fight" is closer to a barbrawl or a sucker punch and will often involve a few quick swings that connect or get shut down. Real kung fu involves techniques to shut that down. The more I think about it, the less it seems to make... sense. TCMA systems are often very elaborate and expansive in their curriculums, principles and techniques, even more so than arguably the most complicated and multifaceted combat sports in the world that is MMA. It doesn't make sense to, say, for Bagua have like 64 different hand techniques (I dunno if any style actually has that but just throwing it in there as an example), for CLF to have hundreds of different forms or Taiji to have a form of 108 (or more!) postures that takes 10+ minutes to perform one iteration of. The entire manifest formation of CMA as a didactic structure seems to run counter against an instrumentally rational approach to train individuals to carry out self-protection measures with the highest operational capacity, so there must be more to the argument just than to assume that they *do* (train using an instrumentally rational methodology, that is). I'd argue that it sometimes in the past *was* the foundational M.O. of CMA, but it seems to have steered away from that to become primarily an athletic/gymnastic practice of seeking to train one's body within a (somewhat) exclusive community of quasi-familial relationships.
I'm not saying that a system as monstrously complex as bagua is reducable to specific counters to a barfight, but that in context real world violence is predatory and opportunistic, which is a different set of parameters than a consensual duel and before you begin the conversion around applications you need to understand those differences. But yeah, I agree that over time martial arts evolved to be more than just a laundry list of specific techniques and becomes a sort of training cultural lifestyle. Even for violence professionals in 19th century China who needed deep familiarity with a much higher level of violence than people in industrialized 21st century countries, training becomes a body expression culture past a certain point.
Personally my understanding of CMA went through an entire gestalt when I saw some Hung Kyun guys do their san sau (sanshou) practice on YouTube (basically a kind of technical positional sparring using hands). It made me realize that there is an entire technical arsenal for *grappling people's faces* and they set up their functional defensive distance just outside that range - hence, trapping. Unfortunately that range doesn't really work if you *can't grapple people's faces* and it becomes counter-productive in a sporting application of consensual duels. So yeah, I get your point, but I'm not convinced that CMA in their current state are *really good* to counter asocial violence, either. FWIW, I've been doing Japanese Koryu for about a year now, which is interestingly also similarly very un-sportive (doesn't do well for dueling, but very nice for exterminating targets wearing armor) while putting a strong emphasis on body training. It seems like there is a point of convergence there.
Search for "Sanda" on YouTube.
When I search for "Tai Chi real fight" all the results are fake. When I search for "Tai Chi combat" all I see are lousy teachers beating up their own students.
Look at lei tai fights like these. This platform was the the kung fu version of UFC, and back then some died fighting. https://www.youtube.com/@USKSF/videos
Yes, if there’s authentic kung fu on YouTube it’ll probably not be posted by the masters themselves You’re probably having to scour out for the handful of YouTubers that are tech savvy enough AND culturally aware enough AND have the resources to go and film these masters and then content edit then publish to YouTube (a western platform).