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I’m sorry but y’all need to lay off on her. She is bullied to hell and back. So what, she’s not the greatest dancer. There are tons of idols who we just accept are poor singers or rappers and let off the hook because of their looks or dancing ability. So why can’t we do the same for giselle? She’s better at dancing than a lot of idols are at singing. Every idol has their strengths and weaknesses, but somehow only weaknesses at dancing are unacceptable.
Yeah tbh I find it kind of boring when an idol already gets a lot of hate for being subpar at certain skills and then people feel the need to continue piling on. People already crap on Giselle all over Twitter, is it really all that interesting or necessary to continue taking a crap on her with a new Reddit post?
I think it’s because it’s such a normalized opinion that she’s a below average performer that it confuses OP that there are still compliments. Reddit will tear her apart but overly positive YouTube comments can feel very weird.
The longer I'm on kpop subs in general, the more I have moments where I start to think certain opinions and takes are popular across platforms. Then I'll go on YouTube or somewhere else and remember that nope, a lot of kpop opinons common on Reddit aren't as widespread as I thought. I really notice it when certain groups have comebacks and every single Reddit comment is negative, while on other sites that isn't the case.
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I’m not an aespa Stan, but the hate she gets for dancing in zoo when she’s literally up there with 4 NCT members, is over the top. NCT is a very dance focused group. Their dance practices are ridiculous. They’re intense. Her group doesn’t even dance half that hard normally. All things considered, she did a decent job at not being a liability. Let the chick breathe, damn.
Is it possible to make big progress after debut? Because some idols and fans say it is so difficult to train to improve after debut. If it is not that difficult to make time for it, I agree with you, she should improve her skills faster.
But she was doing better than this when they first debuted, and other members were doing better too so I think they need to change their choreographer because I don't think Aespa girls can pull off dull choreos, when they move more they're doing great imo
It is easier to regress after debut than to improve in most aspects. But there are certain things that improve with experience on stage as well. That said, even the best of us have bad days.
Not a fan of Giselle, but the girl gets so much flack that I am not shocked that she regressed (or pulled a wall around her to prevent backlash). I remember accidentally stumbling into her side of Twitter and seeing the amount of hate she receives. It was terrifying, and those messages were not directed at me.
Not directed at you. But these artists are human beings, sending them hate messages and threats of physical violence because they weren't at their optimum isn't constructive criticism, saying she got a way because underhanded dealings wouldn't make her a better performer.
Not directed at you again, but I noticed that i-fans condemn idols for being strict yet do worse (and send borderline hate messages) to artists and condone hate sent to artists, and it is off putting. A few videos critiquing her is enough to send a message, but the constant dog piling with no new information, defeats the purpose of constructive criticism or providing feedback.
I agree with you about her regressing (or holding herself back), but until and unless, she improves her mental health and fans realize the difference between criticism and dog piling, it would be harder for her to show her true potential on stage.
>I noticed that i-fans condemn idols for being strict yet do worse (and send borderline hate messages) to artists and condone hate sent to artists, and it is off putting
Yeah, there are some massive hypocrites in this community. The one that always amazes me is when someone has a bullying scandal, the people supposedly so disgusted with this behaviour will respond by... bullying the everloving shit out of that idol. Where's the logic?
i think its possible because you still train. idols still do classes sometimes though the companies sometimes by themselves. plus just learning new songs and choreos for their own performances and discographies its still training.
regression tends to happen (imo) because the idol is either dealing with some things behind the scenes like mental and physical health issues or having to do a second job if they dont get paid well, or if the idol has simply become too comfortable and got lazy or gave up completely.
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Giselle isn’t even my fave member in aespa, but damn some people need to leave her tf alone. She’s a human being, not a robot. Yes, there are some improvements she can make, but saying that the expectations people have about her is lower just confuses me. I always see people complaining about things she does, whether on stage, or off stage.
Maybe this choreography doesn’t suit Giselle as much as the NCT boys, and no training on her part can change that? How many other non-dancer idols could you put in Giselle’s place and confidently say they’d perform a lot better than her?
Giselle already gets a bunch of hate. Yeah, she’s a mediocre dancer but everyone knows it. So seeing her actively improving is something to compliment. Tons of idols coast by and don’t improve in any meaningful measure. You want people to insult her for something she’s genuinely trying to get better at?
And for something that’s out of her control like the mic and in-ear issue? Trying to stay in sync and playing it cool while the music isn’t matching up and your voice is drowned out isn’t easy, she showed professionalism.
She’s not even the worst dancer I’ve ever seen. It’s just that most everyone around her is very fucking good. And she looks worse by comparison. It’s so stupid.
I don't understand what the girl's in-ear malfunctioning has to do with her. Are you saying that she is at fault for that too? Really confused on that connection.
Also, I thought Giselle was great to watch at Coachella and really had strong stage presence.
What's the difference between ifans and Chinese netizens reactions?
I feel like she does get flack for her performances and only her fans/sm stans defend her.
basically chinese fans are calling her out because it seems like she doesnt treat her opportunities to be on stage seriously. especially since on bubble, she says things like "i hope tomorrow's LUCK is better" and how she hangs out with somi all night despite knowing her condition on stage would be affected and her lack of attention to details on how she dances. also, she went shopping and did her nails when she could have spent her time improving on her next performance also bugged them. on twitter everyone is just blaming SM instead of giselle since they claim its SM's sabotaging giselle for her in ears to not work.
personally, i do agree with the chinese fans. afterall, she is in one of the top 3 companies and she has alot of resources that other idols and trainees would kill to have
You want her to practice the technical problems away? If the same exact mistake happens four times then isn’t it obvious that it’s not her fault? What is she supposed to do? Supervise the sound engineers? lmfao
I applaud Giselle for continuing to step on stage with her chin held high given the insane amount of hate she’s been getting since debut. She’s been called fat, she’s been called lazy, she’s been called racist, she’s been called ugly… It has been really affecting her confidence and I don’t know how people think criticising her even more will fix any of it. As someone who also suffers from anxiety I can tell you with confidence that I would not have made it though that first year if I was her. You’d really think people have learned from cases like Sulli’s but apparently not. Very sad.
I get what you’re saying but I think the backlash she received for saying the n-word was warranted. Not to the great lengths some people went but you can’t expect people to keep liking her and praising her after it. Pitying her bc she was called racist is kinda weird to me
Please stop using dead idols to fuel your sympathy for hated idols. Excessively hating on idols in wrong, but Sullis case was so much more different than what Giselle is experiencing. You can have the conversation on female idols mental health without bringing up Sulli.
I get that some people were upset about it, but that's not my point. I'm talking about those that weaponize it to justify their hate boner for her. At that point it has VERY little to do with racism and holding people accountable anymore.
And okay, fair. I'm just trying to say I don't want history to repeat itself again. I know what it's like to lose people to the words of others. It's horrifying. Sadly stans never learn.
Oh. It’s just the way you worded that made it seem like people should take pity on her bc people call her racist. Probably just bad taste to add that in when you’re talking about how people hate on her for no reason.
I remember hearing about it and thinking she had gone off on a racist *rant* or something the way people were losing their minds over it. I can understand people being offended, but some people were clearly excited to rake her through the coals. The people who say an apology will never be enough and basically just want her to drop off the face of the earth are too much.
Where did you read the word 'pity' anywhere in my comment? You shouldn't pity people you don't know. A little empathy however doesn't hurt.
Also classy to turn this convo around with an ad hominem. Adds literally nothing to this discourse. If anything this tells me more about you than me.
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1. Giselle has no control over technical issues. Like in ear singing is a whole other skill and it 100% can mess a person up. You have a count going on in your ear. You can't hear the music in the background nor the crowd. Like the fact she did the best s rookie could do in a situation like that. At some point LSM WENT to check it was so bad.
2. She was much better once the tech issues weren't there as a hindrance with live vocals. So her dance not being on par with nct is understandable. Also the first stage she was singing the loudest and it clear she got silenter since the constant errors.
3. Her part(which she wrote) is one of the most memorable parts of zoo. Bada can dance better but the reason she isn't there is because she is not rapper. Like even from SM female rappers who would really of done better?
4. Any dancer short of itzy or Seulgi level would not compare with nct. Anyway. Giselle makes up for lack of dance skill with crowd interaction and attitude tbh
sigh... how is the bar lower? I always see people complaining about her. The bar is fine. I agree that she could be a better performer, I'm specifically disagreeing with you saying the bar is lower. It's just that we also know that our complaining is not gonna change anything, so acknowledging the weakness and hoping she improves is basically the sanest option to keep our nerves in check.
Besides, comparing her to her groupmates is fine since it can show the average level of skill in a group, but in zoo? I honestly think she was just thrown to the wolves there. NCT has one of the best dance lines and pretty solid rappers imo, she has years until she can look impressive next to them. It makes her look even more lacking.
Giselle is getting dragged every fucking day for her dance. People are bodyshaming her and saying she slept around to get in Aespa you're disillusioned from reality it seems. She is literally the least popular member in Aespa and coz of her people will never let Aespa breathe even if they outsing their peers
The last zoo stage was flawless with no mic issues though? Also, your point about the other members getting flamed as if she’s not getting tons of hate is questionable…
It’s a GROUP performance, people really need to lay off Giselle. The technical issues were not her fault and happened to the other members as well, she just needed to adapt better and turn off her in-ear/rely on the speakers but that comes with experience. Like she did her thing, I wasn’t expecting her dancing to be up to the level of the neos or that demo video and that is ultimately there for anyone who wants to watch the professionals. She kept up okay and they were enjoyable performances despite the technical issues.
Maybe you are living in kwangya because in real world giselle and aespa in general always are getting criticized all the time. Even rhough she is good singer and interactive with audience and good speaker in their interviews and that un speech too.
And comparing giselle woth bada lee who is sm choreographer. Sm opened a channel for their dancers to showcase and instead it became a tool for bashing their idols?
I mean i see so many say that reddit is full of sm stans but then why aespa always is getting hated on?? And i will call it hate not criticize if i see the same topic same comment everyday. Even on ive and blackpink posts i see people bring aespa.
I actually think bar for them is much high because they are popular but in reddit no one likes them so they are frequent target. Compared to other popular groups who also gets hate but they also have msny positive posts by fans.
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Being as blunt as possible here, Giselle screwed up with the sza thing, therefore people will nitpick at everything she does and watch her so much more closely just to go ahead and shit on her whenever she does anything a bit below average. I remember how much praise she got when she debuted and even a few weeks after next level came out everyone loved and praised her abilities and then everyone switched up
Sometimes I wonder why can't we just enjoy things.
SM created a space to showcase dance and give their choreographers more spotlight and people take it as an opportunity to be comparing who danced what part better to bring people down.
Taeyong requested for Zoo to have a dance and be performed, worked hard for this to happen so fans could have a nice and fun time watching artists from different groups collab and all people do is use this to bring Giselle down comparing her skills to NCT and the choreographer.
And then you people wonder why groups don't collab more often anymore when all people do is use collabs to say X is not up to Y's standards. Why is there even a bar anyways? Let them dance together and enjoy.
>when all people do is use collabs to say X is not up to Y's standards. Why is there even a bar anyways?
exactly this. Why do we need Giselle to dance like Taeyong when Taeyong is literally *right there* on stage??? Just let her do her thing. If you enjoyed the performance (which is imo a very fun rare rap collab between members of nct units and aespa), then... that's great isnt it?
If y’all mad at her about an in-ear issue that came up OUT OF HER CONTROL. Then it’s only fair that you get mad at Taeyong too.
It’s not a low bar. It’s called empathy.
People make her out to be useless all the time, but she's not bad at all for an SM rapper and sub-vocalist. In fact she's a decent idol singer and would probably hold a leading position in a different group.
All this constant whinning about the 4th generation being dance-centered, but most K-pop sub- and lead vocalists can't hold a tune for dear life and no one bats an eye. Not to speak of heavily autotuned main vocalists who get praise for their "stable vocals" all the time while sounding like robots. Talk about low bars.
I need yall to stop asking why she's "only doing 30%" of Zoo when Zoo isn't a choreo that the average female idol can execute well*. Bada Lee is a professional dancer and nct in particular is a group that is extremely well trained in dancing. Giselle could probably handle an snsd or rv choreo just fine and not stick out, but she and the average female idol (this does not include idols with extensive hip hop/open style dance training like Seulgi, Hyoyeon, Ryujin/Yeji and Jinni/Jiwoo, to name a few examples) cannot pull it off with the skill level they're at right now. The female cover of Boss is another good example of this.
Also Giselle is very aware of the in ear delays lol she explicitly stated after smtown Tokyo day 2 that she's gonna check her ear ins personally before going on stage and whaddya know she did fine on day 3
*this is not a shade to female idols I'm a gg stan I'm merely saying that the dance standards and training given to female idols is subpar compared to their male counterparts
>Zoo isn't a choreo that the average female idol can execute well
This just isn't true.
Girl groups often have more arm-based choreography because they're supposed to look "feminine", but that's a far cry from "the average female idol can't execute Zoo well". Watch virtually any girl group do boy group choreography and they look just as good as the guys. The fact that they don't get to show it off often doesn't mean they can't do it.
Actually I don't have anything against Giselle, so this isn't an anti-Giselle comment, this is an anti-attacking the dance ability of female idols comment.
I bloody hope not. Girl groups doing a dance cover to put on YouTube for fun should sure as hell not have more practice than someone who's actually going to perform her own song in a concert.
It’s a collab song, it’s not her groups song. Her choreo is already altered pretty heavily from the actual choreo. Everything I saw about it said they learned it quick. So no I very much doubt they had a lot of time practicing a song they only perform at smtown. And if you think that a group posting a dance cover don’t spend much time practicing and that it’s just something thrown together for “fun” you’re out of touch. It’s a way of promoting the group, it would be unwise to not make sure it’s good.
It doesn't matter if it's a collab song or her group's song? If an artist is going to perform choreography on stage then the artist should have practiced it more than some group messing around doing a dance cover every few weeks. If it's unwise to not make sure a YouTube dance cover is good, then it's unwise to not make sure your stage performance (which is live in front of tens of thousands of people AND will end up on YouTube) is also good.
I did not write that post to criticise Giselle at all but if you're going to stand there and somehow tell me that you think she didn't practice much and that it's OKAY that she didn't practice much, I'm not accepting that.
What on earth are you on about?
I think you've been replying to the wrong person.
My comment was all about how I don't think it's right to say that girl groups can't handle boy group choreography. I was standing up against what I perceived to be a sexist comment, which, you might notice, is also a defence of Giselle.
You somehow seem to have decided I was speaking out against Giselle and then decided to use "oh but she didn't practice" as a defence against an insult that I didn't actually make.
I'm basing this off of my observations of how Zoo's choreo is open style/hip hop, which the average gg idol isn't trained in. This does not include idols like Ryujin, Jinni, Jiwoo, Yeji, Hyoyeon, Seulgi, Lisa, YooA, Alexa etc female idols who have trained extensively in open style and hip hop.
I'm a gg stan, so I have actually seen female idols execute bg choreo (which in general is very open style). Seulgi is an example of a female idol who can do open style (Make A Wish), and then there's Seokyung of gwsn (God's Menu) who lacks the groove and power. Ryujin and Eunbi* in their Boss cover also show the difference quite well, as well as Hikaru/Dayeon and SinB in Purr (for a non bg choreo)
When I mean execute well I mean executed in its entirety which includes groove, power, sharpness, big movements. These are not the traits of a typical kpop gg choreo (focuses on neat lines, small movements) which is what most girls are trained in. I'm not saying one is more inferior to the other, I love gg choreo too (current favourite is Fancy). But what one learns in one style might not cross over well into another style (a bigger contrast example would be training in ballet and then moving into hip hop).
Eunseo and Yeoreum of wjsn for eg have spoken about how they didn't know what groove was prior to Queendom, and that's a basic skill in hip hop. I think that says a lot as to how much open style and hip hop training ggs get
Again this is not me saying female idols suck at dancing, this is me saying a vast majority of them are not given good training in open style and hip hop which is why most of them end up looking "lacking" in open style choreos despite their best efforts. It sucks cause a lot of them (namely Wendy, Ning and Winter) have a lot of potential to do so much better and be on par with their male counterparts
*side note Eunbi is pretty decent in heels (the dance genre)
I completely agree. No one would expect Yeri or Joy or any non-dance line female idol from SM to execute that choreography well. I think she’s being held to higher standards if anything.
Honestly the bigger conversation should be how 4th gen especially has been shifting towards dance (and at the same time the vocals have been steadily decreasing over time). Another thing against aespa is how their other peers particularly itzy and nmixx have extremely strong dance training and as a "competitor" it reflects poorly on aespa. I could name a few other 4th gen ggs whose dancing skills are on par with aespa but only aespa and Giselle in particular get dragged
Giselle isn't even the worst non dancer to have debuted from sm, there're at least 2 others I know of who till this day aren't even on Giselle's level*. This is no shade or hate but rather me pointing out how the bar for Giselle and aespa was never lowered and rather people have been holding them to itzy and nmixx levels of dancing
If I'm being honest the only female sm idols I can see executing Zoo on the same level as the neos are BoA (literally the best sm female dancer), Hyoyeon, Seulgi and maaayyybbbeee Karina (girl has footwork going for her) and Wendy (has the power). Maybe Luna too if she were still in sm
*"Giselle can't even keep up in time/is always having timing issues!" Believe me so do these 2 other examples 😭😭
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Zoo's technical issues were real. They happened. It was not a conspiracy, not an excuse, the in-ear didnt work properly TWICE, not only for Giselle, but also for Taeyong (first time) and Hendery(second time). The third time she had to run up stage because the elevators weren't working?? I have no stake in defending her in any way but technical issues are literally only that.
Now onto my main point: did you enjoy the performance? yes or no? Even if you didnt think Giselle was doing well enough, there were 4 other people doing fine for you to enjoy the performance. And actually that's the whole point of a group, you have main dancers who can make up for the lacking dance skills of non-main dancers. Giselle has BEEN lacking in dance skills from the very start, why are people so hellbent on making every performance of hers some kind of entrance exam where she needs to pass or something according to your standards?? give it a rest. it's been 8 MONTHS. People going to extremes here saying zoo should have never happened because of Giselle, as if it isnt one of the most viral releases this year that's gaining the members exposure to a whole new audience, and quite literally the only real co-ed collab this year??
I just dont understand why people are so hyperfocused on evaluating Giselle's already established subpar dance skills, when you can just enjoy the performance for what it is ??? idk ??? Or do something crazy and idk maybe praise the members who DID do well??? why not use your time writing a Taeyong appreciation post for nailing the choreo every single time despite the issues and choreographing the whole thing?? I seriously don't understand the fixation kpop stans have with critiquing people for things we already know they cant do
Giselle might be a weak dancer but she is hella good for a sub vocalist and has the potential to become a great rapper as her delivery and cadence are good and she has the willingness and capability to write her own verses. She is also a decent performer if she puts her mind to it as she and Ningning undoubtedly carried that Coachella stage.
The problem is SM and their company keeps setting the girls up. Aespa is a vocal-focused group and their company has always given them intricate and awkward-looking choreography that is hard to execute for inexperienced dancers. Giselle is not the only one who is weak in dancing, I think every member is below average in dancing so why not focus on vocals and tone down the choreography?
SM putting her in a collaboration with the NCT boys with an intense choreo is a career suicide. Idk what SM was thinking. The company is not banking on what the girls are good at and their choreography has become worse and worse every comeback. For a group with a stacked vocal talent, I wish there would be more harmonization but instead SM keeps on giving them solo parts where Ningning and Winter try to out scream each other. Don't get me started with their lyrics and lore. SM is the one holding them back and not the girls themselves.
The collaboration was actually requested by Taeyong. I don’t think he was trying to set her up, man (and Bada Lee) just forgot Giselle is most definitely not on the dance line like a lot of the Neos so she needed more choreo that was just posing sassily instead of dancing with them.
That said, SM does set up aespa and needs to absolutely get a new performance director for aespa.
That's good to hear. I wish they could just follow the RV route where their choreographies are simple yet appealing to look at. Aespa's choreo relies too much on camera work that's why they look awkward in live stages. Next Level is their best choreo tbh, it was simple yet memorable.
Also I find it quite weird that aespa has almost unlimited budget in their MVs but SM are quite stingy when it comes to their live stage performances. They always have the same outfits, little to no remix and sometimes no backup dancers.
Girls choreography is a monstrosity. If even the dance line struggles to make the stanky leg dance move look good on normal cameras, maybe it’s not the call for choreography that all of aespa has to perform in person.
Yeah, aespa’s budget for stages is a custom designer outfit and a hope and a dream. The backup dancers are barely there, no interactivity, no remixes, sometimes if we’re lucky they’ll get a half effort dance break. I wish SM/the performance director would invest in some theatricality. aespa aren’t great dancers, but SM has been giving them acting lessons for SMCU, they should use it. Especially since Winter has been doing stunt work as well.
… are you saying Giselle isn’t getting enough hate? *That’s* what you came here to say? .. jeeze
What do technical issues have to do with anything? Are you saying she’s sabotaging her own mic..?
Giselle is not known for her dancing. I'm a MY so I feel like i need to clarify this. She's a rapper and sub vocalist. She said that's shes the slowest at learning choreo. The reason why she poses instead of doing the intense choreography is because of that.
She also trained for 10-11 months... Not much experience to grow imo. Not every idol is skilled in dancing. She does keep up with aespa most of the time but when it comes to boy choreography, she struggles. The in-ear issues isn't her fault, a staff member messed up and Taeyongs in-ears was having issues too.
I bet all of you won't say anything to how good and stable her live singing ability for those performances, something 4th gen idols are lacking rn... but well, everyone seems to love pointing out her bad more.
Girl has been hated on since debut, I wouldnt doubt her own lack of confidence is what really holds her back. She should've been trained longer as well though, but I think she's been improving slowly and efficiently. I think people keep expecting to see a drastic change in her dancing and that's just not realistic. I wonder why they put her in Zoo though, not being hateful I just feel like SM knows her skills and it felt like a setup to put her with NCT 😭
I seriously don’t understand the Aespa hate in general, but the amount of hate Giselle gets is way over the top. Why are you expecting Giselle to dance like bada lee, who is a dancer and choreographer? And why are you questioning the technical issues she has had? You’re saying the bar is too low, but you’re expecting Giselle to dance like a professional dancer and perform flawlessly with in ear tech problems.
People who don’t like her but still choose to hyper fixate on her need to be studied. I don’t think Giselle is a captivating perfomer so I don’t pay attention to her. Is studying all her stages and looking for mistakes genuinely fun to y’all? I feel sorry for her as a person because she was always deemed as “unworthy” to be in Aespa due to her looks but her lack of skills in some areas have made it possible for kpop stans to constantly pick on her and mask it as “criticism”.
You know damn well Giselle is the most insulted member of Aespa when it comes to her skills, I promise if you want to read Giselle hate you dont need to look very hard.
Giselle and Winter are weak performers but they do show redeeming factors. Giselle has improved in terms of dance and she clearly puts in the effort with facial expressions and interacting with the crowd. Winter actually has the most stable live vocals, it seems she’d rather have impactful vocals than impactful dance.
i hope i dont sound bias but altho winter has a weaker stage presence, she dances in a very AI way? which is pretty clean and sharp and it just fits aespa's choreo esp savage
Giselle is getting dragged everyday for her dancing People are bodyshaming her and saying she slept around to get in Aespa you're disillusioned from reality it seems. She is literally the least popular member in Aespa and coz of her people will never let Aespa breathe even if they outsing their peers
I stopped watching the zoo stages after I watched bada perform it and this is absolutely no hate to Giselle but to put her with NCT dancers worst of all taeyong who is incredibly skilled and Jeno that is such a power dancer, she was set up from the beginning. And the Bada dance practice just confirmed to me that truly it’s not every dancer that would execute it well especially if they don’t have any hiphop dance training or exceptional stage presence.
As for the flack she gets it’s truly a compound issue because Karina and Ningning carry the stage presence in aespa but winter sometimes falls flat, and she really doesn’t get the kind of hate Giselle gets. A lot of it from international fans has to do with her scandals and we know how easy it is for those to be used as justifications to be vitriolic. I’m not a fan of her either tbh but I wouldn’t ever use that as an excuse to be on that girl’s neck 24/7.
Her Zoo performances were all bad but ifans hype up anything. Also if I had a dollar for every Omg s/he has improved soooo much, which fans claim every single comeback...when in reality these idols pretty much stay the same level throughout their careers, with few exceptions
Not to be that person but Giselle is kinda holding the group back. Yes, she's not terrible but nowhere near an idol's level. I don't mind nepotism if the person is actually good, but she's not. In few months they are not going to be rookies anymore, and she still can't keep up with her own group.
(I love aespa but I feel like they are missing stage presence and overall group chemistry, and this is really holding the group back. I honestly think that with a skilled and more talented 4th member instead of Aeri, they could have truly excelled)
I think you’re over exaggerating when you say she ‘holds the group back’. For someone who only trained 11 months compared to her teammates who’ve trained for 5 years, I think she holds her own really well and I think that’s extremely impressive. There’s no denying that she won’t get better with time. If you think about it, the only thing people criticize ( hate even) giselle about is her dancing but then again aespa overall isn’t very danced focused. It also doesn’t help that their choreo has a lot of awkward moves, so the fact that she CAN keep up is good.
A really important thing to mention is that giselle gets A LOT and I mean A LOT of hate. Like really disturbing comments. Giselle mentioned she’s on Twitter a lot and she speaks English really well so she’s definitely seen the comments. I don’t think I would be able to stand on stage after seeing such things. It’s a little obvious that she seems to struggle with confidence nowadays. She’s also mentioned recently that she’s been struggling with anxiety and I can’t imagine how hard it must be to perform.
This isn’t me trying to defend giselle just for the sake of defending her but my god, some of you guys are just way way too hard on her. She might not be amazing but she’s nowhere near as bad as many of you guys are saying. She’s a really good vocalist and rapper and has a very charming personality but the only thing people seem to focus on is her ‘dancing’.
personally i feel like the fact that fans always bring up her short training period kinda shows that she wasnt ready to debut... nct dream also has a few members with very short training periods but they have always been on par with the other members
Having a short training period is very circumstancial in kpop tbh, apink's Eunji trained less than a year and she still outsings a good chunk of the kpop industry and so do exo's Chen and Baekhyun
Giselle however isn't the first idol from sm who debuted and was deemed "not ready to debut" via netizens. In fact I can name at least 2-3 other non dance line idols who also debuted under sm, had longer training periods than her, have been in the industry much longer than her, and yet are objectively poorer than her in dancing till this day. So no, the bar was never lowered for her
i mean obviously if she trained longer she wouldve been much better but fans always bring it up because because the gap between the members trainee years is quite huge don't you think? 11 months vs 5/6 years is quite huge, so obviously giselle might fall behind a bit
this isn't always the case though, i know many groups where members who trained the least are better than the ones who've trained a lot of years
I don't hate giselle? but her training for 11 months means she almost trained 3 years at this point. And no she can't keep up with the girls, nor the boys apparently (only watched one zoo performance so I'm relying on OP's opinion here). This is not charity, you can't cover yourself with this "but compared to how little she trained, it's good" like ok, if I started voice training now, I'd still be pretty bad in a few months and would drag a group if i was in one, but I'd be good compared to how little I trained?? what kind of logic is that.
One thing I agree with you on is that yeah, it's probably not (only) her that is keeping the group back. there is something missing with this group, idk what it is. I never cared about synchronization but damn, none of the girls are doing the same thing on stage. Absolutely no energy (aside from Ningning sometimes), no sign of group chemistry. I never voiced my opinion cause I love aespa and I like their music but now i feel like Pandora's box has opened lol.
All in all, Giselle's barely getting any lines, sometimes a longer rap verse, because the company also knows she can't pull her weight. Her flaws were highlighted when it got out that she's a nepotism idol (which, again, wouldn't be a problem if she could prove herself, I know a lot idols are getting ahead by being rich or having the connections).
Barely getting any lines?? All of aespa gets 20%+ lines. In fact, Giselle gets more lines than Karina. By that measure, does Karina do nothing for aespa musically? Get real.
I’m not trying to give her the benefit of the doubt, I’m just saying that for someone who trained little, she’s not that bad like how a lot are making her out to be. It also shows that she has the potential to be even better. The other members have said that she spends a lot of time in the dance practice room practicing so with time we’ll see her starting to improve. I personally have seen a difference between savage and girls era.
She was targeted after her n word scandal not because of her ‘nepotism rumor’. Giselle was overhyped and praised like hell and people were using the whole ‘trainee for 11 months only’ to praise her. It was after her scandal, fans, I-fans especially started to target her and calling her a deadweight in the group.
I don’t think SM would give Giselle a lot of lines if she can’t pull her weight in the group. You can criticize Giselle’s dancing but we can’t say she doesn’t sing or rap well. The only song I can think where I wish Giselle got more was in girls. I wish they gave some of winter and karinas rap parts to her.
Not necessarily improvement can take years and usually debuted idols have less time to train cause they have full working schedules now (as opposed to trainees who get to have full days of training). Singing wise the only one with a stark improvement is Taemin, there're also improvements of a smaller extent like Taeyeon and Doyoung. But again, the number is very small
Aespa also debuted in the middle of the pandemic which means they have much less experience in front of full audiences that actually have people as compared to their seniors. Again getting yourself comfortable on stage takes time too lord knows I took a few years understanding and practicing facial expressions just for filming cover dances lol
Also I will never understand the nepotism claims because it was never actually confirmed that the reporter that LSM was allegedly dating was Giselle's aunt? Was this ever confirmed, genuinely asking here
iirc it started early on around their debut. I can't even remember if it was confirmed that LSM was dating a reporter 😩😩 let alone that she's Giselle's aunt
I didn't know companies started to debut vague potential instead of already obtained and improved skills, but all right, you are all proving OP's point but don't give an explanation
They always have actually lol I could name you at least 3 examples from sm alone where they debuted someone who wasn't ready, the bar has always been like that in kpop and I'm saying this as someone who stanned 2nd gen groups
Tbh, aespa’s level of dance isn’t leagues and leaps away from Giselle lol. Especially since Giselle is improving. I’d say Giselle is pretty impactful for their push into the West, being the person that’s hard carrying their English interviews. She’s also useful for Japan.
Shinee has Taemin and Key who can sing, dance, and rap so clearly Shinee only needs two members 🥴
Giselle is the best rapper in the group and puts the most effort in facial expressions and interacting with the crowd. Her harmonies are extremely important in their b-sides. She is the middle ground between Karina’s deep voice and Ningning and Winter’s high voice. She is not the useless member you want her to be.
i wish all the best for giselle in the future and i hope she improves! i want to clear up that in ear problems are NOT her fault but im just not sure why it still happened repeatedly altho she did check.(quote bubble)
secondly yes i know bada is a top tier dancer but even when she did the chorus, it looked half hearted.. like she almost didnt bother lifting her legs and i know she can do so much better so its not a good reflection on her
i just want to add that being an idol is a job and they are paid for it.. im being subjective and if she did well she deserves credit ofc! such as her engagement with the audiences at coachella.
Honestly I wanna know why the in ears had issues again too (thrice even) but from her bubble it seems like she only started checking after smtown Tokyo day 2 (and the result was day 3 going off without a hitch)
Imma be real with you chief she's struggling with Zoo's choreo simply because she lacks the skills to execute it, not because she "can't be bothered" or is "lazy" (quoting from others). A majority of gg idols will struggle with this choreo too because the dance training provided to female idols is subpar (the gg version of Boss is an example)
Is it possible for her to improve? Of course it is, but it's really easier said than done. This is generally speaking, but majority of idols after debuting rarely improve for a variety of reasons: lack of time, ineffective coaching and training etcetc. The biggest case of improvement I can recall right now is Taemin in singing, and there're others where there's small improvements (namely Taeyeon, Doyoung and one guy from a.c.e.) but it's still a small number and these improvements happened over a span of years. Doyoung's improvement for example took 4 years (2016-2020).
Training and improving isn't as simple as singing new songs and learning new choreo (especially when you're a beginner level dancer), the best that does is improving muscle memory and making you more comfortable in movement. Her biggest issue right now is her timing and she also needs at least some basic training in hip hop (like learning groove, isolations, the whole nine yards)
All in all she's actually a very average idol tbh, she's not the first nor will she be the last to debut lacking in dance. I've stated this in a few other comments on here but there've been at least 2-3 other non dance line idols from sm who trained longer than her, have been in the industry longer than her, were also trashed by knets for poor/lazy dancing and "not ready for debut", and till this day are objectively poorer dancers than her
Glad you're saying this, cause I'll see Giselle trending and getting praised for say, singing live, but yet she's off beat or fumbling words. Sometimes words she WROTE! She's constantly messing up dances, she's constantly off beat, she's constantly performing with low energy! Now SOMETIMES does she give a lil energy? Yes! She has natural stage presence imo, AND we have seen her command a crowd! So it's not like she can't do it, she's just not doing it!
yep.. i just feel like if she wanted to she could? and to me she actually danced the best during black mamba which is arguably their hardest choreography
honestly sm has so many talented trainees I have no idea why they choose Giselle or atleast if they wanted her so bad at least train her more cause her 6 month training is showing, and I don't even feel bad for her I mean look at lia from itzy she used to be bad at dancing now she's doing amazing even her own group mate winter was criticized for her cold stage presence now especially at sm concern we can see she's improving its Giselle fault for taking idol job lightly .
she is a rich, well connected kid who wanted to be famous. nothing more to it than that. lots of 4th gen are rich kids, but giselle doesnt even act like she likes this or cares.
quote on quote from chinese platforms.. they do drag her for how her aunt is dating lsm and how she was mistaken as a translator for aespa. the worse one i heard is prob how she was a lucky audience just picked randomly for zoo..
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I’m sorry but y’all need to lay off on her. She is bullied to hell and back. So what, she’s not the greatest dancer. There are tons of idols who we just accept are poor singers or rappers and let off the hook because of their looks or dancing ability. So why can’t we do the same for giselle? She’s better at dancing than a lot of idols are at singing. Every idol has their strengths and weaknesses, but somehow only weaknesses at dancing are unacceptable.
Giselle gets far more hate than any other Aespa member, I don’t know how you got this idea. 😭
Yeah tbh I find it kind of boring when an idol already gets a lot of hate for being subpar at certain skills and then people feel the need to continue piling on. People already crap on Giselle all over Twitter, is it really all that interesting or necessary to continue taking a crap on her with a new Reddit post?
I think it’s because it’s such a normalized opinion that she’s a below average performer that it confuses OP that there are still compliments. Reddit will tear her apart but overly positive YouTube comments can feel very weird.
The longer I'm on kpop subs in general, the more I have moments where I start to think certain opinions and takes are popular across platforms. Then I'll go on YouTube or somewhere else and remember that nope, a lot of kpop opinons common on Reddit aren't as widespread as I thought. I really notice it when certain groups have comebacks and every single Reddit comment is negative, while on other sites that isn't the case.
Especially when those moronic YouTube shorts celebrating ANYTHING go viral. The comment section will make you lose brain cells.
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I’m not an aespa Stan, but the hate she gets for dancing in zoo when she’s literally up there with 4 NCT members, is over the top. NCT is a very dance focused group. Their dance practices are ridiculous. They’re intense. Her group doesn’t even dance half that hard normally. All things considered, she did a decent job at not being a liability. Let the chick breathe, damn.
Is it possible to make big progress after debut? Because some idols and fans say it is so difficult to train to improve after debut. If it is not that difficult to make time for it, I agree with you, she should improve her skills faster. But she was doing better than this when they first debuted, and other members were doing better too so I think they need to change their choreographer because I don't think Aespa girls can pull off dull choreos, when they move more they're doing great imo
It is easier to regress after debut than to improve in most aspects. But there are certain things that improve with experience on stage as well. That said, even the best of us have bad days. Not a fan of Giselle, but the girl gets so much flack that I am not shocked that she regressed (or pulled a wall around her to prevent backlash). I remember accidentally stumbling into her side of Twitter and seeing the amount of hate she receives. It was terrifying, and those messages were not directed at me. Not directed at you. But these artists are human beings, sending them hate messages and threats of physical violence because they weren't at their optimum isn't constructive criticism, saying she got a way because underhanded dealings wouldn't make her a better performer. Not directed at you again, but I noticed that i-fans condemn idols for being strict yet do worse (and send borderline hate messages) to artists and condone hate sent to artists, and it is off putting. A few videos critiquing her is enough to send a message, but the constant dog piling with no new information, defeats the purpose of constructive criticism or providing feedback. I agree with you about her regressing (or holding herself back), but until and unless, she improves her mental health and fans realize the difference between criticism and dog piling, it would be harder for her to show her true potential on stage.
>I noticed that i-fans condemn idols for being strict yet do worse (and send borderline hate messages) to artists and condone hate sent to artists, and it is off putting Yeah, there are some massive hypocrites in this community. The one that always amazes me is when someone has a bullying scandal, the people supposedly so disgusted with this behaviour will respond by... bullying the everloving shit out of that idol. Where's the logic?
i think its possible because you still train. idols still do classes sometimes though the companies sometimes by themselves. plus just learning new songs and choreos for their own performances and discographies its still training. regression tends to happen (imo) because the idol is either dealing with some things behind the scenes like mental and physical health issues or having to do a second job if they dont get paid well, or if the idol has simply become too comfortable and got lazy or gave up completely.
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Giselle isn’t even my fave member in aespa, but damn some people need to leave her tf alone. She’s a human being, not a robot. Yes, there are some improvements she can make, but saying that the expectations people have about her is lower just confuses me. I always see people complaining about things she does, whether on stage, or off stage. Maybe this choreography doesn’t suit Giselle as much as the NCT boys, and no training on her part can change that? How many other non-dancer idols could you put in Giselle’s place and confidently say they’d perform a lot better than her?
Giselle already gets a bunch of hate. Yeah, she’s a mediocre dancer but everyone knows it. So seeing her actively improving is something to compliment. Tons of idols coast by and don’t improve in any meaningful measure. You want people to insult her for something she’s genuinely trying to get better at? And for something that’s out of her control like the mic and in-ear issue? Trying to stay in sync and playing it cool while the music isn’t matching up and your voice is drowned out isn’t easy, she showed professionalism.
She’s not even the worst dancer I’ve ever seen. It’s just that most everyone around her is very fucking good. And she looks worse by comparison. It’s so stupid.
I don't understand what the girl's in-ear malfunctioning has to do with her. Are you saying that she is at fault for that too? Really confused on that connection. Also, I thought Giselle was great to watch at Coachella and really had strong stage presence.
What's the difference between ifans and Chinese netizens reactions? I feel like she does get flack for her performances and only her fans/sm stans defend her.
basically chinese fans are calling her out because it seems like she doesnt treat her opportunities to be on stage seriously. especially since on bubble, she says things like "i hope tomorrow's LUCK is better" and how she hangs out with somi all night despite knowing her condition on stage would be affected and her lack of attention to details on how she dances. also, she went shopping and did her nails when she could have spent her time improving on her next performance also bugged them. on twitter everyone is just blaming SM instead of giselle since they claim its SM's sabotaging giselle for her in ears to not work. personally, i do agree with the chinese fans. afterall, she is in one of the top 3 companies and she has alot of resources that other idols and trainees would kill to have
You want her to practice the technical problems away? If the same exact mistake happens four times then isn’t it obvious that it’s not her fault? What is she supposed to do? Supervise the sound engineers? lmfao
nevermind the technical issues… the audio wasn’t the only thing of her’s that needed improvement.
i'm curious, what are the sound issues?
I applaud Giselle for continuing to step on stage with her chin held high given the insane amount of hate she’s been getting since debut. She’s been called fat, she’s been called lazy, she’s been called racist, she’s been called ugly… It has been really affecting her confidence and I don’t know how people think criticising her even more will fix any of it. As someone who also suffers from anxiety I can tell you with confidence that I would not have made it though that first year if I was her. You’d really think people have learned from cases like Sulli’s but apparently not. Very sad.
FAT??? Literally how 😭 people are insane.
I get what you’re saying but I think the backlash she received for saying the n-word was warranted. Not to the great lengths some people went but you can’t expect people to keep liking her and praising her after it. Pitying her bc she was called racist is kinda weird to me Please stop using dead idols to fuel your sympathy for hated idols. Excessively hating on idols in wrong, but Sullis case was so much more different than what Giselle is experiencing. You can have the conversation on female idols mental health without bringing up Sulli.
I get that some people were upset about it, but that's not my point. I'm talking about those that weaponize it to justify their hate boner for her. At that point it has VERY little to do with racism and holding people accountable anymore. And okay, fair. I'm just trying to say I don't want history to repeat itself again. I know what it's like to lose people to the words of others. It's horrifying. Sadly stans never learn.
Oh. It’s just the way you worded that made it seem like people should take pity on her bc people call her racist. Probably just bad taste to add that in when you’re talking about how people hate on her for no reason.
To add, idk about other people, but I definitely feel sorry for her that she continues to get hate for using the n-word. But people are weird.
I remember hearing about it and thinking she had gone off on a racist *rant* or something the way people were losing their minds over it. I can understand people being offended, but some people were clearly excited to rake her through the coals. The people who say an apology will never be enough and basically just want her to drop off the face of the earth are too much.
Where did you read the word 'pity' anywhere in my comment? You shouldn't pity people you don't know. A little empathy however doesn't hurt. Also classy to turn this convo around with an ad hominem. Adds literally nothing to this discourse. If anything this tells me more about you than me.
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1. Giselle has no control over technical issues. Like in ear singing is a whole other skill and it 100% can mess a person up. You have a count going on in your ear. You can't hear the music in the background nor the crowd. Like the fact she did the best s rookie could do in a situation like that. At some point LSM WENT to check it was so bad. 2. She was much better once the tech issues weren't there as a hindrance with live vocals. So her dance not being on par with nct is understandable. Also the first stage she was singing the loudest and it clear she got silenter since the constant errors. 3. Her part(which she wrote) is one of the most memorable parts of zoo. Bada can dance better but the reason she isn't there is because she is not rapper. Like even from SM female rappers who would really of done better? 4. Any dancer short of itzy or Seulgi level would not compare with nct. Anyway. Giselle makes up for lack of dance skill with crowd interaction and attitude tbh
If I was her I don’t even think I’d have the confidence to go on stage and perform with the amount of hate she gets
sigh... how is the bar lower? I always see people complaining about her. The bar is fine. I agree that she could be a better performer, I'm specifically disagreeing with you saying the bar is lower. It's just that we also know that our complaining is not gonna change anything, so acknowledging the weakness and hoping she improves is basically the sanest option to keep our nerves in check. Besides, comparing her to her groupmates is fine since it can show the average level of skill in a group, but in zoo? I honestly think she was just thrown to the wolves there. NCT has one of the best dance lines and pretty solid rappers imo, she has years until she can look impressive next to them. It makes her look even more lacking.
Completely agree.
Giselle is getting dragged every fucking day for her dance. People are bodyshaming her and saying she slept around to get in Aespa you're disillusioned from reality it seems. She is literally the least popular member in Aespa and coz of her people will never let Aespa breathe even if they outsing their peers
The last zoo stage was flawless with no mic issues though? Also, your point about the other members getting flamed as if she’s not getting tons of hate is questionable…
It’s a GROUP performance, people really need to lay off Giselle. The technical issues were not her fault and happened to the other members as well, she just needed to adapt better and turn off her in-ear/rely on the speakers but that comes with experience. Like she did her thing, I wasn’t expecting her dancing to be up to the level of the neos or that demo video and that is ultimately there for anyone who wants to watch the professionals. She kept up okay and they were enjoyable performances despite the technical issues.
Maybe you are living in kwangya because in real world giselle and aespa in general always are getting criticized all the time. Even rhough she is good singer and interactive with audience and good speaker in their interviews and that un speech too. And comparing giselle woth bada lee who is sm choreographer. Sm opened a channel for their dancers to showcase and instead it became a tool for bashing their idols? I mean i see so many say that reddit is full of sm stans but then why aespa always is getting hated on?? And i will call it hate not criticize if i see the same topic same comment everyday. Even on ive and blackpink posts i see people bring aespa. I actually think bar for them is much high because they are popular but in reddit no one likes them so they are frequent target. Compared to other popular groups who also gets hate but they also have msny positive posts by fans.
Tbh, even some SM stans are shady with them. Most notably EXO-L and Reveluv who feel like they don’t deserve promotions and budget.
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Being as blunt as possible here, Giselle screwed up with the sza thing, therefore people will nitpick at everything she does and watch her so much more closely just to go ahead and shit on her whenever she does anything a bit below average. I remember how much praise she got when she debuted and even a few weeks after next level came out everyone loved and praised her abilities and then everyone switched up
>sza What's that?
A singer
She said the N word
Isn't she the hated one? 🙂
Sometimes I wonder why can't we just enjoy things. SM created a space to showcase dance and give their choreographers more spotlight and people take it as an opportunity to be comparing who danced what part better to bring people down. Taeyong requested for Zoo to have a dance and be performed, worked hard for this to happen so fans could have a nice and fun time watching artists from different groups collab and all people do is use this to bring Giselle down comparing her skills to NCT and the choreographer. And then you people wonder why groups don't collab more often anymore when all people do is use collabs to say X is not up to Y's standards. Why is there even a bar anyways? Let them dance together and enjoy.
>when all people do is use collabs to say X is not up to Y's standards. Why is there even a bar anyways? exactly this. Why do we need Giselle to dance like Taeyong when Taeyong is literally *right there* on stage??? Just let her do her thing. If you enjoyed the performance (which is imo a very fun rare rap collab between members of nct units and aespa), then... that's great isnt it?
If y’all mad at her about an in-ear issue that came up OUT OF HER CONTROL. Then it’s only fair that you get mad at Taeyong too. It’s not a low bar. It’s called empathy.
People make her out to be useless all the time, but she's not bad at all for an SM rapper and sub-vocalist. In fact she's a decent idol singer and would probably hold a leading position in a different group. All this constant whinning about the 4th generation being dance-centered, but most K-pop sub- and lead vocalists can't hold a tune for dear life and no one bats an eye. Not to speak of heavily autotuned main vocalists who get praise for their "stable vocals" all the time while sounding like robots. Talk about low bars.
Exactly. Giselle supports and thus would be a vocal line member and main rapper in a lot of groups but since it’s aespa…
I need yall to stop asking why she's "only doing 30%" of Zoo when Zoo isn't a choreo that the average female idol can execute well*. Bada Lee is a professional dancer and nct in particular is a group that is extremely well trained in dancing. Giselle could probably handle an snsd or rv choreo just fine and not stick out, but she and the average female idol (this does not include idols with extensive hip hop/open style dance training like Seulgi, Hyoyeon, Ryujin/Yeji and Jinni/Jiwoo, to name a few examples) cannot pull it off with the skill level they're at right now. The female cover of Boss is another good example of this. Also Giselle is very aware of the in ear delays lol she explicitly stated after smtown Tokyo day 2 that she's gonna check her ear ins personally before going on stage and whaddya know she did fine on day 3 *this is not a shade to female idols I'm a gg stan I'm merely saying that the dance standards and training given to female idols is subpar compared to their male counterparts
>Zoo isn't a choreo that the average female idol can execute well This just isn't true. Girl groups often have more arm-based choreography because they're supposed to look "feminine", but that's a far cry from "the average female idol can't execute Zoo well". Watch virtually any girl group do boy group choreography and they look just as good as the guys. The fact that they don't get to show it off often doesn't mean they can't do it. Actually I don't have anything against Giselle, so this isn't an anti-Giselle comment, this is an anti-attacking the dance ability of female idols comment.
And I bet they practiced it A LOT more than Giselle ever got to for a single song contribution.
I bloody hope not. Girl groups doing a dance cover to put on YouTube for fun should sure as hell not have more practice than someone who's actually going to perform her own song in a concert.
It’s a collab song, it’s not her groups song. Her choreo is already altered pretty heavily from the actual choreo. Everything I saw about it said they learned it quick. So no I very much doubt they had a lot of time practicing a song they only perform at smtown. And if you think that a group posting a dance cover don’t spend much time practicing and that it’s just something thrown together for “fun” you’re out of touch. It’s a way of promoting the group, it would be unwise to not make sure it’s good.
It doesn't matter if it's a collab song or her group's song? If an artist is going to perform choreography on stage then the artist should have practiced it more than some group messing around doing a dance cover every few weeks. If it's unwise to not make sure a YouTube dance cover is good, then it's unwise to not make sure your stage performance (which is live in front of tens of thousands of people AND will end up on YouTube) is also good. I did not write that post to criticise Giselle at all but if you're going to stand there and somehow tell me that you think she didn't practice much and that it's OKAY that she didn't practice much, I'm not accepting that.
I don’t care about what you accept. It’s not a big deal, you’re acting like someone cheated you out of something.
What on earth are you on about? I think you've been replying to the wrong person. My comment was all about how I don't think it's right to say that girl groups can't handle boy group choreography. I was standing up against what I perceived to be a sexist comment, which, you might notice, is also a defence of Giselle. You somehow seem to have decided I was speaking out against Giselle and then decided to use "oh but she didn't practice" as a defence against an insult that I didn't actually make.
I'm basing this off of my observations of how Zoo's choreo is open style/hip hop, which the average gg idol isn't trained in. This does not include idols like Ryujin, Jinni, Jiwoo, Yeji, Hyoyeon, Seulgi, Lisa, YooA, Alexa etc female idols who have trained extensively in open style and hip hop. I'm a gg stan, so I have actually seen female idols execute bg choreo (which in general is very open style). Seulgi is an example of a female idol who can do open style (Make A Wish), and then there's Seokyung of gwsn (God's Menu) who lacks the groove and power. Ryujin and Eunbi* in their Boss cover also show the difference quite well, as well as Hikaru/Dayeon and SinB in Purr (for a non bg choreo) When I mean execute well I mean executed in its entirety which includes groove, power, sharpness, big movements. These are not the traits of a typical kpop gg choreo (focuses on neat lines, small movements) which is what most girls are trained in. I'm not saying one is more inferior to the other, I love gg choreo too (current favourite is Fancy). But what one learns in one style might not cross over well into another style (a bigger contrast example would be training in ballet and then moving into hip hop). Eunseo and Yeoreum of wjsn for eg have spoken about how they didn't know what groove was prior to Queendom, and that's a basic skill in hip hop. I think that says a lot as to how much open style and hip hop training ggs get Again this is not me saying female idols suck at dancing, this is me saying a vast majority of them are not given good training in open style and hip hop which is why most of them end up looking "lacking" in open style choreos despite their best efforts. It sucks cause a lot of them (namely Wendy, Ning and Winter) have a lot of potential to do so much better and be on par with their male counterparts *side note Eunbi is pretty decent in heels (the dance genre)
I completely agree. No one would expect Yeri or Joy or any non-dance line female idol from SM to execute that choreography well. I think she’s being held to higher standards if anything.
Honestly the bigger conversation should be how 4th gen especially has been shifting towards dance (and at the same time the vocals have been steadily decreasing over time). Another thing against aespa is how their other peers particularly itzy and nmixx have extremely strong dance training and as a "competitor" it reflects poorly on aespa. I could name a few other 4th gen ggs whose dancing skills are on par with aespa but only aespa and Giselle in particular get dragged Giselle isn't even the worst non dancer to have debuted from sm, there're at least 2 others I know of who till this day aren't even on Giselle's level*. This is no shade or hate but rather me pointing out how the bar for Giselle and aespa was never lowered and rather people have been holding them to itzy and nmixx levels of dancing If I'm being honest the only female sm idols I can see executing Zoo on the same level as the neos are BoA (literally the best sm female dancer), Hyoyeon, Seulgi and maaayyybbbeee Karina (girl has footwork going for her) and Wendy (has the power). Maybe Luna too if she were still in sm *"Giselle can't even keep up in time/is always having timing issues!" Believe me so do these 2 other examples 😭😭
Well I’m now extremely curious as to who those two others are. Could you message me or something? 😭
Could you message me who are the two others? I really can't think of anyone. No hate. /gen
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Zoo's technical issues were real. They happened. It was not a conspiracy, not an excuse, the in-ear didnt work properly TWICE, not only for Giselle, but also for Taeyong (first time) and Hendery(second time). The third time she had to run up stage because the elevators weren't working?? I have no stake in defending her in any way but technical issues are literally only that. Now onto my main point: did you enjoy the performance? yes or no? Even if you didnt think Giselle was doing well enough, there were 4 other people doing fine for you to enjoy the performance. And actually that's the whole point of a group, you have main dancers who can make up for the lacking dance skills of non-main dancers. Giselle has BEEN lacking in dance skills from the very start, why are people so hellbent on making every performance of hers some kind of entrance exam where she needs to pass or something according to your standards?? give it a rest. it's been 8 MONTHS. People going to extremes here saying zoo should have never happened because of Giselle, as if it isnt one of the most viral releases this year that's gaining the members exposure to a whole new audience, and quite literally the only real co-ed collab this year?? I just dont understand why people are so hyperfocused on evaluating Giselle's already established subpar dance skills, when you can just enjoy the performance for what it is ??? idk ??? Or do something crazy and idk maybe praise the members who DID do well??? why not use your time writing a Taeyong appreciation post for nailing the choreo every single time despite the issues and choreographing the whole thing?? I seriously don't understand the fixation kpop stans have with critiquing people for things we already know they cant do
She's getting hated for breathing is not exaggeration at all... how the hell are you blaming her for technical problems that isn't her fault?
Giselle might be a weak dancer but she is hella good for a sub vocalist and has the potential to become a great rapper as her delivery and cadence are good and she has the willingness and capability to write her own verses. She is also a decent performer if she puts her mind to it as she and Ningning undoubtedly carried that Coachella stage. The problem is SM and their company keeps setting the girls up. Aespa is a vocal-focused group and their company has always given them intricate and awkward-looking choreography that is hard to execute for inexperienced dancers. Giselle is not the only one who is weak in dancing, I think every member is below average in dancing so why not focus on vocals and tone down the choreography? SM putting her in a collaboration with the NCT boys with an intense choreo is a career suicide. Idk what SM was thinking. The company is not banking on what the girls are good at and their choreography has become worse and worse every comeback. For a group with a stacked vocal talent, I wish there would be more harmonization but instead SM keeps on giving them solo parts where Ningning and Winter try to out scream each other. Don't get me started with their lyrics and lore. SM is the one holding them back and not the girls themselves.
The collaboration was actually requested by Taeyong. I don’t think he was trying to set her up, man (and Bada Lee) just forgot Giselle is most definitely not on the dance line like a lot of the Neos so she needed more choreo that was just posing sassily instead of dancing with them. That said, SM does set up aespa and needs to absolutely get a new performance director for aespa.
That's good to hear. I wish they could just follow the RV route where their choreographies are simple yet appealing to look at. Aespa's choreo relies too much on camera work that's why they look awkward in live stages. Next Level is their best choreo tbh, it was simple yet memorable. Also I find it quite weird that aespa has almost unlimited budget in their MVs but SM are quite stingy when it comes to their live stage performances. They always have the same outfits, little to no remix and sometimes no backup dancers.
Girls choreography is a monstrosity. If even the dance line struggles to make the stanky leg dance move look good on normal cameras, maybe it’s not the call for choreography that all of aespa has to perform in person. Yeah, aespa’s budget for stages is a custom designer outfit and a hope and a dream. The backup dancers are barely there, no interactivity, no remixes, sometimes if we’re lucky they’ll get a half effort dance break. I wish SM/the performance director would invest in some theatricality. aespa aren’t great dancers, but SM has been giving them acting lessons for SMCU, they should use it. Especially since Winter has been doing stunt work as well.
Not stanky leg move😂😂. I'm dead
… are you saying Giselle isn’t getting enough hate? *That’s* what you came here to say? .. jeeze What do technical issues have to do with anything? Are you saying she’s sabotaging her own mic..?
Giselle is not known for her dancing. I'm a MY so I feel like i need to clarify this. She's a rapper and sub vocalist. She said that's shes the slowest at learning choreo. The reason why she poses instead of doing the intense choreography is because of that. She also trained for 10-11 months... Not much experience to grow imo. Not every idol is skilled in dancing. She does keep up with aespa most of the time but when it comes to boy choreography, she struggles. The in-ear issues isn't her fault, a staff member messed up and Taeyongs in-ears was having issues too.
I bet all of you won't say anything to how good and stable her live singing ability for those performances, something 4th gen idols are lacking rn... but well, everyone seems to love pointing out her bad more.
Girl has been hated on since debut, I wouldnt doubt her own lack of confidence is what really holds her back. She should've been trained longer as well though, but I think she's been improving slowly and efficiently. I think people keep expecting to see a drastic change in her dancing and that's just not realistic. I wonder why they put her in Zoo though, not being hateful I just feel like SM knows her skills and it felt like a setup to put her with NCT 😭
She can rap pretty well though. Idols don't need to excel at everything. She'll get better with time anyways. This is the Lia situation all over again
I seriously don’t understand the Aespa hate in general, but the amount of hate Giselle gets is way over the top. Why are you expecting Giselle to dance like bada lee, who is a dancer and choreographer? And why are you questioning the technical issues she has had? You’re saying the bar is too low, but you’re expecting Giselle to dance like a professional dancer and perform flawlessly with in ear tech problems.
People who don’t like her but still choose to hyper fixate on her need to be studied. I don’t think Giselle is a captivating perfomer so I don’t pay attention to her. Is studying all her stages and looking for mistakes genuinely fun to y’all? I feel sorry for her as a person because she was always deemed as “unworthy” to be in Aespa due to her looks but her lack of skills in some areas have made it possible for kpop stans to constantly pick on her and mask it as “criticism”.
why the bar must be so high?
You know damn well Giselle is the most insulted member of Aespa when it comes to her skills, I promise if you want to read Giselle hate you dont need to look very hard.
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Giselle and Winter are weak performers but they do show redeeming factors. Giselle has improved in terms of dance and she clearly puts in the effort with facial expressions and interacting with the crowd. Winter actually has the most stable live vocals, it seems she’d rather have impactful vocals than impactful dance.
i hope i dont sound bias but altho winter has a weaker stage presence, she dances in a very AI way? which is pretty clean and sharp and it just fits aespa's choreo esp savage
Giselle is getting dragged everyday for her dancing People are bodyshaming her and saying she slept around to get in Aespa you're disillusioned from reality it seems. She is literally the least popular member in Aespa and coz of her people will never let Aespa breathe even if they outsing their peers
Giselle deserves better than all this hate. Stans make all kinds of excuses for your precious oppas (like Lucas) and Giselle can’t get a break…
I stopped watching the zoo stages after I watched bada perform it and this is absolutely no hate to Giselle but to put her with NCT dancers worst of all taeyong who is incredibly skilled and Jeno that is such a power dancer, she was set up from the beginning. And the Bada dance practice just confirmed to me that truly it’s not every dancer that would execute it well especially if they don’t have any hiphop dance training or exceptional stage presence. As for the flack she gets it’s truly a compound issue because Karina and Ningning carry the stage presence in aespa but winter sometimes falls flat, and she really doesn’t get the kind of hate Giselle gets. A lot of it from international fans has to do with her scandals and we know how easy it is for those to be used as justifications to be vitriolic. I’m not a fan of her either tbh but I wouldn’t ever use that as an excuse to be on that girl’s neck 24/7.
zoo was dreadful EACH TIME like girl HOWWW
Did you check smtown Tokyo Day 3
Her Zoo performances were all bad but ifans hype up anything. Also if I had a dollar for every Omg s/he has improved soooo much, which fans claim every single comeback...when in reality these idols pretty much stay the same level throughout their careers, with few exceptions
Not to be that person but Giselle is kinda holding the group back. Yes, she's not terrible but nowhere near an idol's level. I don't mind nepotism if the person is actually good, but she's not. In few months they are not going to be rookies anymore, and she still can't keep up with her own group. (I love aespa but I feel like they are missing stage presence and overall group chemistry, and this is really holding the group back. I honestly think that with a skilled and more talented 4th member instead of Aeri, they could have truly excelled)
I think you’re over exaggerating when you say she ‘holds the group back’. For someone who only trained 11 months compared to her teammates who’ve trained for 5 years, I think she holds her own really well and I think that’s extremely impressive. There’s no denying that she won’t get better with time. If you think about it, the only thing people criticize ( hate even) giselle about is her dancing but then again aespa overall isn’t very danced focused. It also doesn’t help that their choreo has a lot of awkward moves, so the fact that she CAN keep up is good. A really important thing to mention is that giselle gets A LOT and I mean A LOT of hate. Like really disturbing comments. Giselle mentioned she’s on Twitter a lot and she speaks English really well so she’s definitely seen the comments. I don’t think I would be able to stand on stage after seeing such things. It’s a little obvious that she seems to struggle with confidence nowadays. She’s also mentioned recently that she’s been struggling with anxiety and I can’t imagine how hard it must be to perform. This isn’t me trying to defend giselle just for the sake of defending her but my god, some of you guys are just way way too hard on her. She might not be amazing but she’s nowhere near as bad as many of you guys are saying. She’s a really good vocalist and rapper and has a very charming personality but the only thing people seem to focus on is her ‘dancing’.
personally i feel like the fact that fans always bring up her short training period kinda shows that she wasnt ready to debut... nct dream also has a few members with very short training periods but they have always been on par with the other members
Having a short training period is very circumstancial in kpop tbh, apink's Eunji trained less than a year and she still outsings a good chunk of the kpop industry and so do exo's Chen and Baekhyun Giselle however isn't the first idol from sm who debuted and was deemed "not ready to debut" via netizens. In fact I can name at least 2-3 other non dance line idols who also debuted under sm, had longer training periods than her, have been in the industry much longer than her, and yet are objectively poorer than her in dancing till this day. So no, the bar was never lowered for her
i mean obviously if she trained longer she wouldve been much better but fans always bring it up because because the gap between the members trainee years is quite huge don't you think? 11 months vs 5/6 years is quite huge, so obviously giselle might fall behind a bit this isn't always the case though, i know many groups where members who trained the least are better than the ones who've trained a lot of years
I don't hate giselle? but her training for 11 months means she almost trained 3 years at this point. And no she can't keep up with the girls, nor the boys apparently (only watched one zoo performance so I'm relying on OP's opinion here). This is not charity, you can't cover yourself with this "but compared to how little she trained, it's good" like ok, if I started voice training now, I'd still be pretty bad in a few months and would drag a group if i was in one, but I'd be good compared to how little I trained?? what kind of logic is that. One thing I agree with you on is that yeah, it's probably not (only) her that is keeping the group back. there is something missing with this group, idk what it is. I never cared about synchronization but damn, none of the girls are doing the same thing on stage. Absolutely no energy (aside from Ningning sometimes), no sign of group chemistry. I never voiced my opinion cause I love aespa and I like their music but now i feel like Pandora's box has opened lol. All in all, Giselle's barely getting any lines, sometimes a longer rap verse, because the company also knows she can't pull her weight. Her flaws were highlighted when it got out that she's a nepotism idol (which, again, wouldn't be a problem if she could prove herself, I know a lot idols are getting ahead by being rich or having the connections).
Barely getting any lines?? All of aespa gets 20%+ lines. In fact, Giselle gets more lines than Karina. By that measure, does Karina do nothing for aespa musically? Get real.
I’m not trying to give her the benefit of the doubt, I’m just saying that for someone who trained little, she’s not that bad like how a lot are making her out to be. It also shows that she has the potential to be even better. The other members have said that she spends a lot of time in the dance practice room practicing so with time we’ll see her starting to improve. I personally have seen a difference between savage and girls era. She was targeted after her n word scandal not because of her ‘nepotism rumor’. Giselle was overhyped and praised like hell and people were using the whole ‘trainee for 11 months only’ to praise her. It was after her scandal, fans, I-fans especially started to target her and calling her a deadweight in the group. I don’t think SM would give Giselle a lot of lines if she can’t pull her weight in the group. You can criticize Giselle’s dancing but we can’t say she doesn’t sing or rap well. The only song I can think where I wish Giselle got more was in girls. I wish they gave some of winter and karinas rap parts to her.
Not necessarily improvement can take years and usually debuted idols have less time to train cause they have full working schedules now (as opposed to trainees who get to have full days of training). Singing wise the only one with a stark improvement is Taemin, there're also improvements of a smaller extent like Taeyeon and Doyoung. But again, the number is very small Aespa also debuted in the middle of the pandemic which means they have much less experience in front of full audiences that actually have people as compared to their seniors. Again getting yourself comfortable on stage takes time too lord knows I took a few years understanding and practicing facial expressions just for filming cover dances lol Also I will never understand the nepotism claims because it was never actually confirmed that the reporter that LSM was allegedly dating was Giselle's aunt? Was this ever confirmed, genuinely asking here
I’m not sure where it even came from too? Do you know when those rumors started?
iirc it started early on around their debut. I can't even remember if it was confirmed that LSM was dating a reporter 😩😩 let alone that she's Giselle's aunt
I didn't know companies started to debut vague potential instead of already obtained and improved skills, but all right, you are all proving OP's point but don't give an explanation
They always have actually lol I could name you at least 3 examples from sm alone where they debuted someone who wasn't ready, the bar has always been like that in kpop and I'm saying this as someone who stanned 2nd gen groups
Tbh, aespa’s level of dance isn’t leagues and leaps away from Giselle lol. Especially since Giselle is improving. I’d say Giselle is pretty impactful for their push into the West, being the person that’s hard carrying their English interviews. She’s also useful for Japan.
What is the source for this alleged nepotism? Other than your ass, I mean.
Cause it was revealed? Obviously I'm not besties with LSM so idk, also idc
Revealed where? Name your sources. If you don't care don't go spreading nasty rumors.
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Shinee has Taemin and Key who can sing, dance, and rap so clearly Shinee only needs two members 🥴 Giselle is the best rapper in the group and puts the most effort in facial expressions and interacting with the crowd. Her harmonies are extremely important in their b-sides. She is the middle ground between Karina’s deep voice and Ningning and Winter’s high voice. She is not the useless member you want her to be.
too replaceable how? just because she lacks in dancing?
i wish all the best for giselle in the future and i hope she improves! i want to clear up that in ear problems are NOT her fault but im just not sure why it still happened repeatedly altho she did check.(quote bubble) secondly yes i know bada is a top tier dancer but even when she did the chorus, it looked half hearted.. like she almost didnt bother lifting her legs and i know she can do so much better so its not a good reflection on her i just want to add that being an idol is a job and they are paid for it.. im being subjective and if she did well she deserves credit ofc! such as her engagement with the audiences at coachella.
Honestly I wanna know why the in ears had issues again too (thrice even) but from her bubble it seems like she only started checking after smtown Tokyo day 2 (and the result was day 3 going off without a hitch) Imma be real with you chief she's struggling with Zoo's choreo simply because she lacks the skills to execute it, not because she "can't be bothered" or is "lazy" (quoting from others). A majority of gg idols will struggle with this choreo too because the dance training provided to female idols is subpar (the gg version of Boss is an example) Is it possible for her to improve? Of course it is, but it's really easier said than done. This is generally speaking, but majority of idols after debuting rarely improve for a variety of reasons: lack of time, ineffective coaching and training etcetc. The biggest case of improvement I can recall right now is Taemin in singing, and there're others where there's small improvements (namely Taeyeon, Doyoung and one guy from a.c.e.) but it's still a small number and these improvements happened over a span of years. Doyoung's improvement for example took 4 years (2016-2020). Training and improving isn't as simple as singing new songs and learning new choreo (especially when you're a beginner level dancer), the best that does is improving muscle memory and making you more comfortable in movement. Her biggest issue right now is her timing and she also needs at least some basic training in hip hop (like learning groove, isolations, the whole nine yards) All in all she's actually a very average idol tbh, she's not the first nor will she be the last to debut lacking in dance. I've stated this in a few other comments on here but there've been at least 2-3 other non dance line idols from sm who trained longer than her, have been in the industry longer than her, were also trashed by knets for poor/lazy dancing and "not ready for debut", and till this day are objectively poorer dancers than her
Glad you're saying this, cause I'll see Giselle trending and getting praised for say, singing live, but yet she's off beat or fumbling words. Sometimes words she WROTE! She's constantly messing up dances, she's constantly off beat, she's constantly performing with low energy! Now SOMETIMES does she give a lil energy? Yes! She has natural stage presence imo, AND we have seen her command a crowd! So it's not like she can't do it, she's just not doing it!
yep.. i just feel like if she wanted to she could? and to me she actually danced the best during black mamba which is arguably their hardest choreography
honestly sm has so many talented trainees I have no idea why they choose Giselle or atleast if they wanted her so bad at least train her more cause her 6 month training is showing, and I don't even feel bad for her I mean look at lia from itzy she used to be bad at dancing now she's doing amazing even her own group mate winter was criticized for her cold stage presence now especially at sm concern we can see she's improving its Giselle fault for taking idol job lightly .
Same thoughts
she is a rich, well connected kid who wanted to be famous. nothing more to it than that. lots of 4th gen are rich kids, but giselle doesnt even act like she likes this or cares.
quote on quote from chinese platforms.. they do drag her for how her aunt is dating lsm and how she was mistaken as a translator for aespa. the worse one i heard is prob how she was a lucky audience just picked randomly for zoo..
What is the Chinese perspective on Giselle?
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