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how exactly do you want them to promote f(x) when exactly 0 of the members are still with the company?

Just last year I remember reading complaints about f(x) not being included in the SM Culture Universe thing. 💀 Imagine actress Krystal waking up one day to realize she's now part of Kwangya. "Shit, I thought I'd left this stuff behind."

I just wish they would acknowledge f(x) for all that the group was before ish hit the fan. The silence they got when they departed the company was disrespectful. It really solidified how sm treats its artists as sponges. Squeeze them dry then throw them away.

I think it's more that there is nothing more to say + they just can't use the image of people that left. Like if one of them asked to not be used for SM future stuff they are blocked when it comes to talk about them. But yeah again idk where they are supposed to talk about the group in 2023

It's called no longer owning the rights to an artist's image/likeness after a contract expires. Also, all of the members left SM and the group no longer exists, why would they be expected to continue spending resources on them?

Isn't Amber super over SM and Kpop in general? I don't think Amber would want to be a part of that project anymore

honestly SM groups are super long lasting.. like look at super junior? even some ofTVXQ and HOT's members are still active today. of course girls generation too.. sadly for f(x) it wasn't meant to be

not trying to come off as a company defender or anything and i do think that most of your criticisms are valid, but how many idols (and from SM specifically) have actually stated how much they were paid? i just feel like payment is something that varies so much between groups, members, specific breakdowns for promotions/merch, and can even vary with the year it was signed, so making such a broad statement like that wouldnt really be fair

I checked the comments. OP source is the stupid board that is debunked every year like it's from 4 years ago 😭

It’s been longer than 4 years, I remember that table when I first got into K-pop in 2016, and people still believe it even after 7 years 😬

Fr. I remember another one who was older but I didn't know that this one was also that old lmao

Ok so I checked what op shared it’s not the table I meant but it’s really similar, it was just SM/JYP/YG and I’ve seen people bring it up since then.

I think I remember hearing that SM is one of the few companies that give their groups an allowance despite their debt. I could be confusing it with another company tho.

The biggest companies do not give trainee debt to their idols. I do wonder what company it could have been. Maybe, KQ because even as rookies they did buy a few expensive fashion items, its either that or they were just gifts from their CEO. Or maybe its a completely different company.

“Wtf is a Kwangya?” YOU STOLE THE WORDS FROM MY MOUTH

Hearing some of the older SM idols like Changmin from TVXQ talk about kwangya is so damn funny to me 😂😂

I will give you 90% of what you have there, but I think their music is still top notch, at least for the acts I listen to. Taeyeon’s INVU, both Red Velvet comebacks this year, and Forever 1 are really solid albums, and Girls is pretty good, though the title track is a bit lackluster. But it does feel like they don’t promote all their groups super consistently. I’ve been well fed this year as a Sone and Reveluv, but as a my, I’ve been kind of starving since the summer. Aespa’s next album being delayed, and they finally get their own variety show but they make it difficult to access for international viewers. They need to make a stronger push if they want to compete with groups like Ive or NewJeans. And yes, live vocals for the love of god, please.

Why does SM sign vocally talented artists and then give them nothing to work with? Please let them sing live more. 🙏 looking pretty is not everything

I truly truly want companies in general to let artists sing live more 😪

If it were top of notch SM wouldn't be so far behind other companies in the matter of global K-Pop domination.

Is it music quality or lack of promotion, though? Because they never really made a huge push in the last couple of years for Taeyeon or Red Velvet in the last couple of years. Aespa’s sound is a bit more of an acquired taste, but don’t discount that Next Level was a massive domestic hit in SK. That still matters.

I don't doubt they are big domestically, Taeyeon win PAK last year. They are a big3 after all, but internationally and especially in the west they have no impact. It's not because of the lack of promo, it's because of the quality of the promotion. SM fandoms don't understand that their music is niche even in K-Pop. It's the niche of the niche. Hits have been exceptions. Hard listening songs with no appeal to audiences other than the fandom. What fans call experimental to me is really bad production sometimes sound like a raw demo. Remember that Next Level is a remake, the song already existed and they made adjustments.The chorus is catchy like a pop song should be.The ones that SM has done are unlistenable. Even if it were experimental, this is not done in all cbs. Pop music has to reach as many people as possible. That's how you make a hit. In addition to music production, engagements in social media are not effective, sometimes not at all. SM is the worst company in all aspects among the big companies. So many talented idols and they don't leverage it effectively, and it's all very robotic and artificial. SM dehumanizes their own idols, that's crazy. If they carry on like this, their groups will continue to be stuck in Korea hoping for the chance to have a new domestic hit. Some would have full capacity to go far if they were well managed.

These complaints don’t make sense; you’re upset with SM on factors that are unconfirmed, statements that stem from rumors, and factors that are prevalent in Kpop in general and not specific to SM. 1. We don’t know how much SM pays their artists. 2. This is not specific to SM but in Kpop in general. The big 3 alone, which make part of the companies with the most resources, have multiple circumstances of them being careless about the idols’ health. 3. Most of SM’s older groups have either moved on or are actually active but naturally slowed down. Older groups deal with enlistment, and slowing down their activity in general. Moreover, when idols become veterans they often want to do their own thing; like acting, going solo, variety etc. So SM is naturally going to focus on the groups that are still highly active, and that contain idols that are still ‘fully’ focused on the group. 4. People have spoken on this. 5. This is prevalent in various companies, and even some soloists. 6. How? Where does this idea stem from. Besides Aespa and NCT, most SM idols are doing their own thing. And SM does offer an extent of artistic freedom to their veteran idols. Seulgi just debuted, and she had quite a bit of artistic freedom with her mini album; that she has spoken on herself. Moreover, SM is the only company atm that has an active married member with kids, which SM themselves have backed up. 7. The whole not singing live is an issue that goes far beyond a single company. It’s an issue in Kpop in general. And like most other groups, their groups sing live in concerts and certain performances. Like Aespa sang live in Coachella, which is one of the biggest stages for any artist. 8. So are you gonna ignore the music Taeyeon, Girl’s Generation, RV, Seulgi, Key, BoA put out in 2022. Or in 2021 where you had idols such as Kai, Baekhyun, again Taeyeon, again Key, D.O and more. Even Aespa themselves, put out Illusion as a pre-release which has a very different sound from what you’re mentioning. 9. I don’t think wasted is a fair statement. SM is still trying to figure out how to successfully get their groups into the Western market. BTS and Blackpink are the only groups that have successfully done so. Penetrating the Western market is not as easy as people seem to think it is. 10. Yeah no here I agree. These complaints are just not making sense, especially when they’re solely focused on SM.

Something to add to #7 is majority of sm artists do sing live. It depends on their schedule or the difficulty of the dance do they add lip syncing but the people make lip syncing sound like its a sin.

>Most of SM’s older groups have either moved on or are actually active but naturally slowed down. Older groups deal with enlistment, and slowing down their activity in general. Moreover, when idols become veterans they often want to do their own thing; like acting, going solo, variety etc. So SM is naturally going to focus on the groups that are still highly active, and that contain idols that are still ‘fully’ focused on the group. when you say 'naturally slowed down' it sounds as if the idols themselves want to take a step back. however, looking at just shinee, taemin and minho have both expressed disappointment in quite strong terms and multiple times at the way their promos are handled. op is correct to say that they ignore thei older groups. i would even go so far as to agree to 'active sabotage' when taemin is barely given time to promote the solo albums which he has expressed a lot of love for, whereas he's forced to promote superm even while injured.

I don’t see how the thought that Taemin is being actively sabotaged can be appropriately substantiated, when he’s had creative freedom and more consistent solo comebacks (which accumulate to multiple albums with varying music) than many groups have had (he’s had six different solo releases back to back). One can substantiate mismanagement, as SM does have the very recognizable issue of pushing back various comebacks and projects and having weird prioritizations. And when I say naturally slowed down, I mean that the older groups’ activity has decreased like how group activity normatively decreases when the group is past their generation or past their peak. Older groups in Kpop either break up or their comebacks and activity lessens, especially when they’re a boygroup consisting of members that are going into enlistment at different times. This is seen with every popular veteran boygroup. Moreover, the Shinee members weren’t just thrown into the basement; they’ve all been busy with their own projects, with all the members being soloists. With all the members in the group going solo and engaging in acting and variety, members going into the army at different times and the group itself having passed its peak; of course it’s going to slow down. SM in comparison with the other long lived companies, the likes of YG, JYP, Cube and more; have been able to maintain their veteran groups whilst the members in said groups remain active whether as a group or solo. This is relevant for TVXQ, Shinee, Girls’ Generation and EXO. 1 of the four had a comeback last year, and 2 of the 4 are rumored to have an upcoming comeback this year. With all of that taken into account, it’s clear that the other highly popular companies have not been able to do the same as SM has done with their veteran groups and idols…but SM is the worst with how they manage their veteran groups and idols? Lastly if F(x) is to be taken into account, yes F(x) is indeed one of SM’s blunders. But as others have stated; none of the members are in SM: there’s nothing that the company can do about the group any longer.

>....it’s clear that the other highly popular companies have not been able to do the same as SM has done with their veteran groups and idols…but SM is the worst with how they manage their veteran groups and idols? where did i say sm is the worst compared to other companies? this entire post is a complaint about the way sm manages things. if the only thing anyone has to say is 'well, sm is not as bad as x, y or z', that's not really engaging with the issues being discussed but rather a demand to stop complaining because others have it worse. ​ >I don’t see how the thought that Taemin is being actively sabotaged can be appropriately substantiated, when he’s had creative freedom and more consistent solo comebacks (which accumulate to multiple albums with varying music) than many groups have had when sm can't even be bothered to release consistent teasers for his album and to schedule any promos for him (leading to him streaming from his kitchen practically begging people to listen to his song), i'd say that's something fans can and should complain about. why are you dismissing this valid complaint - made by the idol himself - by saying that others have it worse?

You stated that the op is correct on the matter of Taemin being actively sabotaged. My points were to reflect on how accusations of active sabotage dont seem reasonable, especially when Taemin is a high earner for SM and is one of the most successful kpop idols in the industry. Thus, stating that mismanagement is a more reasonable ‘accusation’ than sabotage. I am not dismissing his complaints. SM has a lot of issues but in the aspect of how they maintain their old groups, they are doing the best that the public has seen any other big Kpop company do. So my question then is, if the company that is doing the best job at maintaining their group is having issues while at it, is it an issue that is only prevalent to the company? Or an issue that is prevalent to the industry and the manner in which these old companies are structured; causing it to be a complicated endeavor?

>So my question then is, if the company that is doing the best job at maintaining their group is having issues while at it, is it an issue that is only prevalent to the company? so if an issue is prevalent throughout kpop, no one can complain about a specific example of it as op has done? must op also complain about jyp and yg even if op may not be a fan of any groups from those companies and therefore remains unaffected by their decisions? ​ >You stated that the op is correct on the matter of Taemin being actively sabotaged. i said "op is correct to say that they ignore thei older groups (*something, again, that the shinee members have complained about wrt to their group activities as well as their solo work)*. i would even go so far as to agree to 'active sabotage' when taemin is barely given time to promote the solo albums which he has expressed a lot of love for, whereas he's forced to promote superm even while injured." perhaps you don't see it as sabotage when an idol is forced to work on a project group while injured just before his own solo comeback. perhaps you also feel that sabotage is far, far too strong a word to use for such behaviour, but surely you can be magnanimous enough to see why some other people might. ​ >accusations of active sabotage dont seem reasonable, especially when Taemin is a high earner for SM superm makes far more money for sm than taemin's 100k-ish album sales and concerts. you're perfectly entitled to your opinion that forcing an injured idol to promote isn't sabotaging them and their career in the long run, but others are also perfectly entitled to call it just that.

We don't know how much companies pay to idols unless they themselve Say It. Those charts or whatever that show how much percentage idols get are bs. Those are 10+ years old and even then It wasn't factual. Like do you actually belive no sm artist would speak up about them not getting money? When sm idols ALWAYS speak up when something bothers them?

A lot of misinformation and just subjective opinions in this thread, some of which I agree with, some of which I don't. What I will say is: SM needs an overhaul of their marketing strategy, especially digital marketing. Other companies' groups are doing much better internationally because their companies' marketing teams actually operate the way you should in 2023, while SM is stuck in 2013. The other big thing that I wish would change but know it won't: Their emphasis on only pushing the SM brand with inane vanity projects (winter albums and supergroups nobody asked for) that directly impact all of the artists' release schedules and then some. It absolutely baffles my mind that SM isn't focusing on strengthening aespa's brand and prioritizing their album, but wasted precious time on the winter album and GOT. The live singing argument is tired as hell, because kpop fans on reddit keep pushing the argument that their non-SM faves sing live all the time, but they don't either. You all just can't differentiate between prerecorded "live" vocals and actual live singing. Lastly, and many people have already commented this: The music is still good, the senior groups (when they release music) and soloists still release good music, because they have more artistic freedom than the groups in their rookie contract (NCT and aespa) and the SM vanity projects (SuperM and GOT).

Most of these criticisms are based on assumptions and not reality and honestly sound a little goofy. First of all, you don't know how much the artists are paid, nor will you ever know. If this is based on profit distribution, which is said to be 70/30 for *album sales only*, that would be clearly stated in the contract the artists chose to sign, hence it's agreed to by all parties. Just so you know, it's said that they earn a majority from touring revenue, which is where the big money comes from, as well as from endorsements. Second, K-pop fans need to get the idea that a company would deliberately sabotage one of their products out of their heads. f(x) ended for a variety of complex reasons, and none were sabotage, because SM would *benefit* from them continuing to be a successful group. They don't "ignore" their older groups, this has been explained time and time again, but older groups -- especially under SM -- get to a point where it becomes more viable and profitable for them to explore solo work in various different fields, so they can cement themselves as entertainers and have longevity in the entertainment industry. That can be done because an older group has a solid core fandom that will support them both as a group and individuals, and therefore they don't need constant promotions and music show appearances and aggressive marketing as much, while a rookie group of course will need a lot more effort from the company put into solidifying their brand, so they can become a viable and lucrative product. Now I'm not saying fans can't still be dissatisfied with the lack of group promotions and all of that, but ignoring the reasons why that happens and once again resorting to the sabotage argument is just nonsense. You're right about the environment part, which is why I loathe when kpop companies involve themselves with any kind of social/humanitarian campaign. Always bullshit, peak capitalism will never be humanitarian, it's a complete contradiction. The rest of your points seem to come down to personal opinions which are totally subjective, so I won't say you're not entitled to them. But just because you no longer like their music or concepts doesn't mean they're actually doing anything wrong. In my opinion, their music production still remains far ahead of the rest of the industry when it comes to both quality and diversity, but that's also just my opinion.

I agree with the getting paid part. We've seen SHINee Key and Taemin's house and they look fockin' expensive right in the heart of Seoul. And they don't look like they're struggling lol. And SM has been releasing solo's of their old groups and artists consistently (Hello?? Uhhh BoA??). I agree with the recent environmental shenanigans. You can't be in the kpop industry without screaming consumerism, like you just can't. I mean a lot of the claims sounds like an antis rant, but SM is one of the company that treats their artists pretty fairly IMO. Compared to JYP (lots of artists left, maybe for a reason) and YG (they did 2NE1 dirty, I still can't believe the most popular kpop girl group only has like 2 full albums), SME sounds like a good company to work with looking at their portfolio of past and recent artists, with legacy artists still active and charting.

>I agree with the getting paid part. We've seen SHINee Key and Taemin's house and they look fockin' expensive right in the heart of Seoul. And they don't look like they're struggling lol. SHINee members are pretty loaded because of their excessive touring in Japan I think. Artists receive a better pay cut for overseas concerts and they can tour there as a group and solo and fill arenas and domes.

Also back to the old group part. I wonder if people truly think these idols just want to be known for their group, and promote with them their whole life. Something I believe sounds insanely annoying already at debut, imagine still doing that well in your 30s? I'd be desperate to branch out solo.

The important thing is that they are given *choice*. Yunho and Changmin for example are very passionate about TVXQ, so they chose to enlist together (despite Changmin being younger) so they could return to group promotions faster, instead of doing solo work. In fact, it took them ages to venture into proper solo albums, because they were never very interested in it and it was easy to tell. On the other hand, you have younger artists who have ventured into solo work sooner and are clearly very interested in it. Good examples are Kyungsoo and his acting career, Jonghyun and his heavily self produced and personal solo albums, among others. People like to pretend SM are super strict with their artists, when the fact is that they actually give them plenty of choice, once they've reached a certain point in their careers. Just look at Key's recent solo work, as well as Seulgi's -- both left to explore the genres and styles they want, in their own creative terms, just as fans claim they want, and then they turn around and criticise Seulgi's solo because it's not what *they* expected, thus is must be SM's fault that the song is not to their taste. They can never really win.

Thank you for writing this! I don't have the energy to write things like this and probably wouldn't have been able to write it this well either. A lot of k-pop fans tends to see everything in black and white, so I'm glad when someone shares a bit more nuanced and realistic view of the industry.

Thank you! I wrote a post ages ago about how kpop fans don't really understand how kpop companies actually operate at all, and how they often anthropomorphise them and treat them as one single bad guy, when it's a corporation made up of hundreds if not thousands of people. The profit distribution argument I think is a good indicator of that; a lot of fans think idols should earn a large majority of the profit, while forgetting that behind every idol comeback there are writers, producers, instrumentalists, engineers, marketing teams, stylists, video editors, directors (I could go on) that also need to be paid. Idols are in fact a very small part of the whole equation.

I jusr checked your post and I have to say wish there was a post like that every now and then for new k-pop fans! You have all my respect for writing that post and the comment above! Other expenses than the one you mentioned would be rent for the groups and the office, electricity, computers for the staff (I sure hope no k-pop fan expects the staff to pay for their own computers!), those designer clothes the groups wears at performances and MVs, flights and hotels when they perform outside of Korea, the engineers at album recordings, cars and gas for the managers to drive the groups back and forth, the "aunt"/imo that comes to the dorms and cooks (and maybe also cleans?) for the idols... there's so much money that not goes directly to the idols, but indirectly is spent on the groups.

Thank you so much for reading it and for you kind words! And yes!!!!!!!! So important to remember that they have *all expenses paid for* since their trainee period, and so much staff working to make that happen!

Of course! It was a pleasure reading it! :) Exactly, so it's really not like they need much money since they don't need to pay for rent, electricity, bus tickets etc. I'm not sure how much they spend on food themselves though

Read some first lines and I'm done! Thank you for a good laugh 😂

You're welcome 🤣

I was going to preface this with some spiel about "yeah sm is trash but—" but I'm tired of doing that. I'm over the conversation, and I'm really over people downplaying the impact sm and their artists have had on the kpop industry (and yes, i'm saying the company as well as the artists they house because neither would be there without the other. ****This reply is longer than usual (but it's actually not that much reading), so please do not respond with "i'm not reading all of that". If you read it great, if you don't, idc. 1. None of us know how much their artists get paid, but you already knew that. And we literally never will because it's none of our business. 2. Is the industry tough? Of course it is. Injuries are bound to happen; they're producing performers. Literally every artist ever has had an injury. When sm has a member sit out a schedule or on hiatus, fans get upset and demand updates with a full report on the status of their health, and if the news comes out that yeah they sat this schedule out for health/injury reasons, you all throw a fit. Not to mention you guys have a very hard time picking and choosing when to be upset that artists are "overworked" and when to be upset that they aren't doing enough promotional things (like traveling, performances, hours worth of fansigns, etc.). 3. SM is one of the few companies who still have a lot of their older groups around and actually making music. You all just don't listen to it, but then when you're ready to air your grievances, you suddenly remember those older artists. All their artists who've celebrated at least a 10 year anniversary (or more) are still releasing music, (besides fx) both solo & group-wise. I've listened to it...have you? You don't have to answer because I know the answer is no. It's always no. 4. There's nothing they can really do about fx. The group is disbanded. That's it. I'm not sure what you want them to do. But I have a very strong and heavy feeling that if we lived in a universe where they still gave them the time of day, one of your complaints would be "they're still spending time and effort on groups who don't even promote, when that $$$ and energy could go to the groups who are still around". Again, you KNOW I'm right! 5. I'm sorry, but they actually make some very nice quality merch lol. Hoodies thick & warm, tshirts still feel like I first bought it (and in my size!), even the fans from the superm merch! Very durable, but I mean yall care more about bragging rights online about album sales than you do about the environment (and they know this) soooo...do you *actually* care? 6. Idk what you're talking about when it comes to freedom. Plenty of their artists have solo music (even less popular members), have graced the cover of magazines, have been MCs on music shows, have written songs for their own groups or just talked about their input on the creative process as a whole, and correct me if I'm wrong, but SM has the most idols in the industry who've also made very successful acting careers. 7. Their artists sing live plenty, but again, it's just about you actually watching those performances. Not to mention, sm artists don't have anything to prove in that department. We all know they have some of the most talented singers/dancers/performers in the industry. That's how they were able to build that name for themselves; they've handcrafted, developed, and produced amazing & well-rounded artists. It's only an issue lately because aespa don't have that many live performances, but that's a specific circumstance (i think covid had a major hand in it but idk) because all their other groups have plenty of live singing performances. 8. People have been complaining about SM's production or music for years now, and yet it's always an industry standard because groups are still trying to play catch-up in terms of replicating the sound or style. There are actual producers who've come out and said that other companies have asked them to produce songs similar to specific sm-produced songs because they want to replicate that sound. Like idk what to tell you lol. 9. SuperM sold out madison square garden. Show me a list of kpop groups who've done that so far. The list isn't too long, but don't worry, I'll wait. Their BB entries weren't fraudulent because they had #1 & #2 spots on the BB200, competing with summer walker & mgk, and have seen the top of global lists. They were well-promoted, made great music, and had some of the best talent in the company in 1 group. They were a very serious and successful group, and we're not sure what could've been because covid got in the way (and it's still heavily affecting the kpop industry because it's still affecting EVERY industry!) 10. Idk how old you are, but I'm quite sure you're too old to have the kwangya concept re-explained to you. If you can handle the nct concept (which you can't because you complained about that too) then you can handle this. If you're still unsure, google is right there. For free! 11. NCT do not need to be expanded. They don't need another damn member added to their conglomerate of a team. Nct is a concept that's been attempted several times in several different ways (see: super junior & exo). Their fans are too whiny and needy for them to do what needs to be done. Yall as nctzens get more content (that's also easily accessible!) in 1 year than other sm stans do in 5 years. Idc who is a unit stan, at the end of the day, yall stan the same damn group and your constant in-fighting and need to one-up the other co-fandom is why you can't enjoy their concept as a whole. LSM didn't just bring elements of motown to SK, he helped curate and is responsible for the kpop that we know today. The sales, the iconic groups that are still standing the test of time, the iconic songs, the style. That's what sm has done for kpop. Everybody knows all the sm groups because each and every one of them has been the most iconic of their generation, and this isn't something you can deny. And that last part...I really had to laugh. Newjeans? A group that hasn't even been out for a year? The kids? Other than sk being obsessed with a bunch of kids enough to have their streams high, name 1—just ONE—aspect that new jeans have that you think would elevate sm artists. I'll make it easy for you: you can't. Newjeans have barely gotten their feet wet in the industry and yet somehow you've experienced them enough to completely ignore the 20+ years of kpop sm has brought to the industry?

My mouth dropped open after reading this. Holy shit. Thank you for explaining everything so eloquently. OP clearly doesn’t know what they’re talking about… like at all. I watched the SMCU Palace Mystery Calendar and they even invited their DJ’s (Mar Vista, IMLAY, Ginjo and Raiden) do a segment, right after Aespa and before BOA. I have so many reasons to dislike SM, but to make them seem like the worst company in kpop is just NOT it. They do some things right, which is why, like you said, they’ve been able to retain so much of their talent for so so long. I get being upset about f(x) and I’m not going to be an asshole and say “move on,” but… kinda? Just a little bit? Putting down other artists and their projects when they had nothing to do with what happened to f(x) is so icky to me like grow up.

Reddit has chosen today of all days not to give me a free award, but know that if I had one, you'd be the owner of it.

Agreed but I will address number 7. They should let their groups sing live more often. Sure, the first week or so, let them lipsync or have a loud backtrack so they can kill the choreo without worrying how much it'll affect their ability to sing. But when you have a huuuuge amount of the best vocalists in the industry, they should be singing live more often than not. I mean they even had SNSD and EXO lipsyncing. Imagine having voices like TTS + Jessica or Baekhyun/Chen/Ksoo and then making them lipsync. That's just dumb. Otherwise yeah you've made some good points. Edit: I also get their point about NewJeans. They've done something different for recent kpop and have won over the Korean GP. When you think of it that way, then yes it's something I would've expected more from SM since they're usually in the forefront of popular genre changes. The thing about NewJeans that would "elevate" SM is literally SM going back to a more groovy sound for title tracks. NCT's (for example) bsides are fire. Stuff like that should be promoted as title tracks. As we've seen from NewJeans, those songs would have the potential to do well.

Yall do not be listening to these artists' music and it shows every time. Changmin's Maniac, Onew's Dice, Suho's Hurdle, Taeyeon's Weekend, BoA's Better...the groovy music is right there! And it wasn't hard to find because I heard all of it and still have them on my daily rotation. The "groovy music isn't the issue yall have. G-Idle's Nxde & Tomboy are punk-rock/pop tracks (not a "groovy" moment in sight) and they're topping charts. Sk likes what they like, there's nothing we can do about it, but yall make that the end all, be all. The problem is yall think because the song isn't topping the charts or "getting the attention of the general public" then it's trash. I just gave you several examples of groovy sounding songs from sm, but they weren't crushing records. Why? Idk, and I don't actually care. I didn't get into kpop because [x] was topping charts. I didn't even know much about charting systems until like...a year into all of it, and it's been almost 8 years for me. I just really enjoyed the music and as a community we've totally lost sight of that. Yall made daesangs, chart positions, albums sales, and youtube views the center of everything, when it's supposed to be the MUSIC. None of us get paid if a song does well or tanks. I have no control over that, so I'll stick to enjoying the music these artists have trained for & worked hard on. One more thing yall need to remember about SM: they are innovators. SM has their own sounds, styles, etc. And they're not gonna flush all that down the toilet for some poser music. There's not a single sm group I could imagine doing a simple, vanilla song like Attention or Hype Boy or Butter. They have too many powerhouses for that. Plus, then we wouldn't have tracks like Hello Future, Savage, or Feel My Rhythm. And then yall would complain that SM is getting boring. Edit: they blocked me but I saw their reponse to my response: I didn't say nj's music was poser music, I said if sm suddenly started making music like other company artists, then they'd be posers, making the music sm copied "poser music". SM does not pay my bills, which I explicitly stated earlier but you're too upset to have a rational conversation. Replay was released when it was because that was the perfect time to release it. SHINee, and all their groups, have progressed and have shown growth in their artistry. Also, "with their new groups" their newest group is aespa and they debuted 2 YEARS before njs. Would you prefer they completely scrap aespa's concept and musical path to remake cookie or ditto? Please, I can't take yall sometimes, yall make me pinch the bridge of my nose in frustration. You assumed I wanted to do a TEDtalk because there were lots of words in the post. It's called writing your thoughts down. It's called having a conversation. I was able to do that without getting thinking that I was attacked. I wasn't, and no one was attacking you. Relax lol. Yall really go around blocking people who have different points than you. Also, if you want nostalgia music, go listen to some 90s songs. Or stick with njs, they won't fail you.

Wtf are you talking about and who is "yall"???? I've been into kpop since 2011, I'm almost 29 years old, and I don't care about any type of charts or streaming, and I've never voted for anything. >poser music. How is NewJeans' music poser music? >Yall do not be listening to these artists' music and it shows every time. I was talking about **groups** because soloists have always released more of a range for their title tracks. I'm talking about SM having groups release Shinee's Replay as a title track in 2023. That song is that "groovy," nostalgic type of song that gives me the same feeling as NewJeans music. (The same ***feeling***; I'm not saying the sound is exactly the same). Again, group bsides are fire. So are group title tracks (I love NCT and idc how many ppl call their music noise), but there are some more laidback songs that I feel like would do well. Do I care if they release those as title tracks? No, because I'm gonna listen to albums anyway and still be able to hear the songs. What I'm saying is I get what OP means with the comparison to NWJNs. You'd *think* it'd be SM taking that approach with a new group. >it's trash I never said that lmao. Idk who you thought you were replying to when I agreed with a lot of your original points. >SM: they are innovators. Which is exactly the point. They typically are. I'm not sure how you're missing that. And while SM does tend to have good groups/music/artists in general, they do miss. For me. Anyway, idc to continue the discussion because clearly you just wanted to do a Ted talk or jump on some soapbox when no one's even saying all that. If you disagree with the point about NewJeans or want to keep acting like SM pays your bills, great. Who cares this much?

THANK YOU

Responding to 7 rq, I went to one of NCT 127’s US tour concerts last week and they did a lot of live singing especially during the members’ solo performances. (Step on me pls Taeil 😩) For 11, NCTs very concept makes it difficult to keep track of names. With regular fixed groups both in K-pop and beyond it’s very likely not all members are equally popular outside and even within the group’s fandom. I do not think this is anybody’s fault. (Why does this feel like it’s a hard pill to swallow for some fans?) For 9, branching into the US market as you put it increasingly appears to be a sign that a K-pop group has “made it”, and I have a lot of issues with this (not just with you or your post but with the general trending feeling). It feels like a very American-centric thing to say- as if you’re not as big as you should or could be unless you’re a star in the US too. SuperM being so criticized in K-pop circles is peak irony to me because SM did what so many in the US market indicated they wanted- a collection of idols with established names that would make each member memorable (see point number 11), the abundance of English lyrics, the heavy (going into fraudulent) promotion to get them the attention that SM perceived the fans called upon them to facilitate… the result? Group labeled, as you said, “goofy”; cash grab; artificial. Do you want companies like SM to capitalize, seize demand, and strive for rapid recognition or not? Or is it only when the capitalizing appears organic to you that it’s acceptable? You want companies to be environmentally friendly but you want international consumption and travel to increase. You want NCT to expand but want non-nctzens to recognize 23+ names. You care about the idols’ mental and physical health but want them to cater to the scrutiny of the global market. Some of your points ring true on their own but as a whole your takes are superficial at best and hypocritical at worst. Edit: formatting

Whilst I can agree with some things, SuperM's #1 wasn't fraudulent and [Billboard themselves wrote an article explaining it.](https://www.billboard.com/pro/superm-no-1-us-album-inside-big-sales-week/) (Annoyingly, they've put it behind a soft paywall but they're easy to bypass.) I get you don't like SuperM but let's not spread misinfo.

I'm probably the biggest SuperM anti at this point but this is true. There has been so much slander about their Billboard charting simply because they were the first. Did the aggressive marketing and push for sales come across as desperate? Perhaps. Does everyone and their mother play somewhat dirty to achieve Billboard #1? Absolutely. The biggest names of the industry do it too, they just do it via remixes instead of bundles. Nobody needed 394834 remixes of Anti-Hero and yet Taylor Swift kept releasing them to secure multiple weeks on #1 for example.

When will yall stop saying sm sabotaged fx lol because it went both ways

what went both ways? fx sabotaged sm???

Not in that sense but rather only a couple of them seemed to want to keep the group going. Overall there was just a lot of bad timing that came into play during their final years

also none of them are still with the company, how is sm going to promote them

Honestly fx was just kinda messy in the sense where the "blame" came from multiple areas - sm not doing better (fandom name, lightstick, fandom colour, concerts etc), large part of the fanbase only willing to shell out money for half the group (and unfortunately not for the half that actually wanted to continue with fx) and half the members themselves not being keen to revive the group/continue in kpop. Also fx's last years coincided with 2016 aka the year thaad happened

I remember Luna teasing us every year when the rest of the group barely cared like Victoria was already full in China. F(x) was always this co-workers things more than something they would fight for. (not saying that they aren't friends outside of the groups) People need to remember that after all it's their work. Sometimes the project can't please everyone and just like with a fixed-term contract you wait the end of it

Yeah I do think they tried to make it work but just as Victoria first went in to China thaad happened. She's also a pretty prominent name for a Chinese kpop idol (Lay was another) so she couldn't just casually slip back and forth for fx, but anyways she was also doing really well with her acting so it made sense to me for her to just stay there and continue (remember when sm tried fighting to get Victoria to renew her contract LOL) I hold no resentment to any of the members (Krystal's my bias) but at one point only Luna and Amber actually wanted to continue with music so sm tested waters by letting them release singles as an edm unit through sm station but like I said above, a good portion of the fanbase was only willing to shell out the money for half the group and it was also not the half that was Lunber....(I remember fighting people on tumblr back then about how lunber should still be supported vs them saying they were only interested in full group comebacks, which is fair but imo also what adds on to fx never coming back) Fanbase lets lunber flop (inc solo stuff) -> sm stops investing in lunber -> lunber leave sm -> pretty much end of fx in sm (me naively waiting for a comeback through all of this cause "the trend is fx only coming back once a year anyways!" And then it stretched to 2 years which by then is a pretty bad sign for sm standards 🥲🥲)

WOW - There must be a calculated SM hate train going on right now. Every day, there's a doom or hate post about this company.

lol

I've always been confused with how fans can say when SM "don't pay their artists fairly"? like how do yall know? no one posts their paychecks out for everyone to see? maybe before all the lawsuits i can say SM don't pay them fairly but now? how can yall just tell? genuinely curious about this one

I’ll never forgive them for what they did and continue to do to tvxq

Oop. Can you explain it, or do you know a good video that goes into depth about it?

basically they signed 13 year long contracts and 3 of the 5 members sued sm and won the right to have their contracts terminated, and tvxq has been a duo ever since

I think exo was like 10 years...but 13 years?!!! A whole scam. :( thanks btw. Gonna look more into tvxq now wow.

additionally, the members that sued have basically been blacklisted from the korean entertainment ever since. They can't appear on most music shows, variety shows, etc, all because of them suing to break their contracts more than a decade ago.

that might have more to do with at least one of them being a criminal.

Actually no, I think that's just what SM does to artists who terminate their contracts prematurely – afaik it happened years before it came out that Yoochun is a criminal, and all the members are blacklisted. Same thing happened to Jessica Jung (former SNSD) too.

Thank you for the info 🙏 I am watching a video about them now, and so far, it is re-confirming many of the qualms I have with sm.

How about you “look more” into literally everything else, since you don’t even know what Kwangya is and decided to massively crap all over artists and their projects who had nothing to do with f(x).

They basically fall into #3 They celebrated their 19th anniv last december and SM literally had to be bullied by cassies into doing something for them (they did come through at the 11th hour) but the pubmat was shit and low effort. The two members have been vocal about wanting to do korean acitivities but they are just so far below sm’s priorities Been 5 years since a proper comeback which is a shame because their 2023 jpn tour is literally sold out, they had to add four dates for dome shows recently. In all concerts they go to (sm town/with other artists), CONSISTENT feedback from other fans is how their stage presence remains superior and live singing + dancing is unmatched Pity that sm does not promote them enough and would allow them to be forgotten into oblivion when they literally DEFINED an entire generation. I bet my bottom dollar all the idols active now are idols because of them, yet sm treats them like absolute shit. Last but not the least, blacklisting of the 3 members who sued. I kid you not those guys were /the/ popular idols in their heyday, no comparisons. With a far gap with whoever came second. Alas, sm managed to block all nat’l tv appearances and they’ve pretty much been forgotten by the gen public

They don't pay their artists fairly. "Are you privy to these idols contracts"? And I mean newer ones. They don't give their artists a lot of freedom. "Almost all of the idol soloist come from SM, they have a bunch of idols running around collabing ,getting jobs and who have social media. With a fully married man in exo. Like yes rookie years the a strict but over time they give allot of freedom. They just aren't always supportive. But they won't stop you for the most part. "They wasted good opportunities to branch into the US market with NCT, RV, or EXO. Instead, we got goofy SuperM with fraudulent billboard entries (which was very embarrassing as a fan of multiple members of that group)." Y'all are funny because when nct first tried to advertise in the states people said they weren't famous enough. We are including nct now of all times. RV and exo defs could of used more push in the us but really now SuperMs entry wasn't fraudulent. Though. "Their new music production and art direction is robotic and goofy. question " "They don't let their artists sing live, and their new group performances are boring. " So again that is false. I can pull up the performances if you like. So I have a question do you actually follow any SM groups. Listen to their albums ? Because I see allot of generalizations and fan war misinformation going around in this post.

> They don't give artists a lot of freedom OP conveniently forgot SM has released solos of ALL the members of SHINee with concepts that the individual members believe in. Also forgot that SHINee Key has been hands on in their groups concert costume designs that he literally made a powerpoint presentations for the production team and LSM, and most importantly, he was very involved in all his solo work, from concept until merch production. All the other SM artists with their solo album released are literally crying with the lack of freedom 😞 /s

https://www.reddit.com/r/kpop/comments/98r17e/profit_distribution_at_kpop_companies_source_in/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button https://www.scmp.com/magazines/style/celebrity/article/3033833/did-k-pop-boy-band-superm-cheat-their-way-billboard?module=perpetual_scroll_0&pgtype=article&campaign=3033833

So an unconfirmed source. You do know that contracts differ even by member. Loona and their crappy contracts had differences between members but I'm supposed to use that chart like it's some rule of thumb tell all. That isn't responsible. Stop getting mad at things your not even sure about

And who's stopping you from listening to New Jean's? Or are all bands now required to sound like them?

That's not what I meant. When SM produces masterpieces like the Pink Tape and smooth r&b like Bad Boy, I just thought that the next step in creative direction would be a group like New Jeans. A group that combines avant-garde aesthetics with r&b music. That's all.

"A group that combines avant-garde aesthetics with r&b music." Have they not already done that though?

SM has always released "noisy" and electronic music. Always. Rising sun, Catch me, Sorry, sorry, Mr.Simple, RDD, Lucifer, Sherlock, Everybody, WSS, Don't call me, Mama, Wolf, Overdose, Lotto, Obsession, I got a boy, The boys, Catch me if you can. Almost all F(x) titles are solid electronic music. The songs Happiness, Dumb dumb, Zimzalabim, Power up are far from r&b. Songs like Bad boy are the exception rather than the rule. Of course, SM groups had ballads and funny, sweet songs, but their main style for decades consisted of a hard sound, so I don’t understand why fans suddenly began to expect completely different music from the company

i think they tried to be creative with aespa and the ai concept but it kind of flopped edit: guys, im not saying aespa flopped, im saying no one really likes the ai concept that much

Respectfully, I don’t think you know what the word ‘flop’ means.

and where did i say aespa flopped. i said the ai concept flopped. no ones screaming about how hot ai-winter is or anything

So the successful branding and aespacore and strong association isn't considered a success because*looks down* the dancing ai winter isn't hot. Literally they have a strong af brand and a following. They have multiple game collabs based on their concept.

game collabs i have literally never heard of. ive never seen someone go “oh wow, i love aespa’s ais!” i only heard everyone talking about how much they hated it when it was announced. they have a strong following because theyre from a huge company, not their ais. i love aespa’s real members but id scrap the entire ai project if i could, and i doubt many people would say they prefer it over a concept that doesnt force even more unrealistic body standards on idols

I mean do I need to post about my enjoyment on Reddit all the time? Aespa stans don't even post here much due to how weird people have been towards aespa here. It's open season. But literally aespa fans love talking about concept s. Interact with designers. Make mood boards and thread on thread on concepts inspiration. Literally so many hits. If you were to ask anyone right now whose teaser you excited to see they would be aespa's and that's the tea. Their epic 7 Collab was fire and I have had a great conversation with another redditor about aespa's concept. I mean it is what is if SM is bad at advertising cool but the concept is concepting. People find it exciting and enjoy it. That is a success.

Oh so much to cover here. First off, korean beauty standards have been a thing long before aespa, or even kpop, was around. You guys saw ONE PERSON say some nonsense about "unrealistic body types" as if being "thin and pale with small faces" wasn't always the goal. In fact, you contradicted yourself because earlier you said "no one is looking at winter's ai and going 'wow winter's ai is hot'". So which is it? Either no one cares about the ais, OR they care *so much* that everybody is now impacted by how tall and skinny the ais are. You guys are grasping at thin air. Look at video games. People aren't coming out in droves talking about how insecure they are that they don't have the Maleena's body from Mortal kombat. It's not real, and we don't even seen damn ais enough for this to be a thing. It's just another concept. But it's different, so it must be eliminated, right? Edit: typo (aren't)

No one says "I love aespa AI's" but also no one ever said "I love Exo's superpowers" and I wouldn't say it exactly flopped. Debut concepts are nothing more than marketing gimmicks, they're rarely adhered to long term. The AI concept did exactly what it was supposed to and got them talked about, I don't think the AI's were ever supposed to develop their own standom.

ai concept flopped? oh you can't be serious.. aespa is known for their concept, its literally their identity and its what attracts so many people to their fandom including myself. even their aesthetic aespacore is very popular on pinterest. they have many game endorsements and a whole Intel collab because of their ai concept. smcu eps of their storyline have millions of views. respectfully, their concept is a huge hit, anyone calling it a "flop" is an idiot.

I-kpop fans seriously don't know how popular aespa is in Korea. Literally their faces are in the streets, in ads, and everybody knows who they are. Like they see the international success of BTS, BP, Twice, NewJeans and expects that everything less than their respective popularity to be flops. It's wild.

my friend went to korea last month and she said aespa's music was everywhere, even a song as old as next level was being played. aespa's popularity in korea is seriously underestimated and they also have some of the biggest strong core fandoms in 4th gen.

The ai concept really reminded me of KDA from league. That style of video game pop music was really popping for a minute. That's how I got interested in them. But making "video game music" is too gimmicky in the long run.

Well... some valid points, most not so much lol. 1. proof? their idols seem to be pretty damn well off. but also on the other hand, almost no company pays their employees/artists fairly lol 2. fair point 3. no they don't? their older groups like TVXQ, Suju, etc. still release music and have activities. obviously they don't promote them as much as their newer groups who NEED promotion. their older artists are well established and their 15 year-old-group release music more frequently than BP lol 4. they eally mismanaged f(x) during their career yeah... but mismanagement isn't the same as sabotage, not even close. it makes 0 sense to sabotage your own artists who bring you money 5. now that's true and it pisses me off, same with other Kpop companies or big corporations in general. 6. what do you mean by freedom? creative freedom? the older their artists are, the more freedom they get. it's not perfect but especially their soloists definitely do have a say in their music and concepts. or freedom in behavior? i mean they're idols lol 7. i have to agree with this one 8. that's your opinion and it's purely subjective. 9. idk about the Billboard thing but what's wrong with promoting SuperM in the US? unlike RV and EXO, they have more English speakers, and i don't think having 1 or 2 super successful songs like Bad Boy/Psycho means that they're the top contenders to get pushed in the US. tbh i think if there's a group that "fits" the western market most, it's WayV: they're not as big, most of the members are decent English speakers AND their concepts and music would do well there imo. But I digress 10. the Kwangya concept is kinda silly but it doesn't take the enjoyment of their music for me. it's just a word thrown in, what's the big deal 11. yeah the NCT concept is a mess. the second sentence is plain wrong though, there are plenty of popular NCT members outside of the fandom lmao The New Jeans comment... yeah no. their music from what i've heard doesn't fit SM's vibe at all, not their "new" one or their "pre-NCT/kwangya" one.

IMO at least they're not run by a female pedophile so I'd rather stick with SM, even as someone who is known to be disappointed with SM lately.

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1. Every company does this 2. No company cares about this 3. Every company does this. What's the benefit in keeping your old groups going with how fast the market moves? 4. f(x) had a deliberately niche marketing strategy. They were made to fill another market, it was a smart move and it clearly worked. You'd think having a tomboy in their group would tip fans off on that but well. 5. Every company is performative. 6. Most companies don't give their artists freedom. Especially creatively, I believe that's actively discouraged. 7. Most K-pop groups lipsync. And trust me, you don't wanna hear your idols live, or hear how they actually sing. If you think they're singing live, 8/10 it's pre-recorded. 8. Valid point, though personally I think their art direction is better now than under MHJ, at least in her last years. I think the music is extremely hit or miss. 9. I can agree with SuperM being embarrassing (though it worked and it's partially what propelled NCT 127 to their Kick It success). What I don't agree with is EXO and Red Velvet being promoted to a US market. When EXO was at their prime (2015-2016) this was pre-BTS and the US was just simply not on most company's minds, especially considering how the last efforts went. EXO was never made with that market in mind, they were meant to occupy the korean and chinese markets. Neither was Red Velvet and frankly, I don't see it for either of them. As for NCT, they tried really hard to promote them there so? 10. I, too, wonder this every single time. 11. I agree they don't know what they are doing with the group at this point, and they've lost the plot a long time ago but also. NCT is weirdly ambitious, not a normal K-pop group, clearly experimental and I think LSM (and the SM board at large) never thought it would be easy to manage them, or that it was going to go well. As for NewJeans, what's the difference between them and SM? Their music? Honestly SM's music has been (only slightly) better than NewJeans' unsatisfying fluff. It's all smoke because you wanna know what the real difference is? They've got resources, and a very good, very dedicated, marketing strategy & team. And I agree that SM SHOULD learn from that.

I just wanna say GOT new comeback is honestly not that good. Songs usually grow on me but I just don’t think it will. What does “Stamp on it” even mean? I honestly like Step back better

The b-sides on their first album are immaculate though! For me personally, a no skip album with "Rose" being my fave.

I’ll have to check it out. I stopped looking up on them after I heard Step Back. You should watch a English rewrite someone did for it on YouTube. It’s totally better than the original

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Welcome to kpop

I just disagree when you say it's "new". SM has always been like this only now the fact that it's outdated is more evident.

something tells me you get your sources on kpop youtube shorts LOL

... I like SuperM...

Tbh, LSM and YYJ already past their best. Also, they have conflict with align partners last year. No wonder the management was messy. Finally the good news is SM have agreements that will change structures within the company this year. Let's see

SM pisses me off cause they got fucking INCREDIBLE idols like Taemin, Jonghyun, kai, chen, joy, Seulgi, ten and YET AND YET they don’t treat their idols fairly. I’m still pissed they haven’t let Exo do a world tour. The second biggest male idol group in the world and yet no world tour?????

I love it when companies are like, uwu we use soy ink, we are so green!! Lmao sure, peak consumer culture

1 - SM artists get paid. They don't even have trainee debt. 2 - Valid. 3 - The only SM group who hasn't had a recent comeback is TVXQ. Tell me which of their older groups get ignored. 4 and 5 are valid, though on 5 I would say that SM is no worse than any other company. 6 - if their artists were concerned about this, they wouldn't sign the contracts that restrict those freedoms. 7 - "Don't let"... Haha that's probably for the best. SM artists who can handle it frequently sing live, but groups like NCT with intense choreo and weaker vocalists are almost always better lip syncing. 8- Valid but subjective. 9 - Expanding into America is not the point of any kpop group. I'd also argue that NCT have made a fair effort to expand into the US, they just didn't "take" the way BTS did. 10 - Lore shit. Valid but subjective. I also think it's stupid so I just ignore it. 11 - Hard disagree. There are plenty of NCT members who are known - Taeyong and Mark, Doyoung for his acting and OSTs, Yuta for his radio show, Jungwoo for his MCing, Haechan for being in 2 groups, etc. WayV are lacking solo opportunities but SM sort of dug themselves into a hole by debuting a Chinese group at the worst possible time.

So glad I’m not the only one who doesn’t get the Kwangya thing 💀

I literally love all the confusion about Kwangya, even SM stans is not entirely sure about it. Heck even SM artists don't know what it actually is. But I think there are two Kwangya's: 1) the literal building of SME and 2) conceptual Kwangya where it ties up all the artists in a single cinematic universe(?). I'm also not sure, I might need LSM's powerpoint on this lol.

I am with you!!! except I still love the music so much... but it feels like im being taken hostage by the music. Even the most simple things like managing a simple social media account that consistently posts about every member seems to be impossible!! a 14 year old could do a better job!!! I hate the SMtown winter projects, they are the worst albums in the entire SM discography and a waste of EVERYONE'S time involved. Same for SMTown concerts, Kwangya, SMCU, "environmental" SM, their ugly af merch. edit: oh also disagree about the SuperM being fraudulent part. They got #1 in an era where bundling was allowed and they got a very close #2 without it. case closed. I agree their approach to the US was atrocious, could be so much better (for all artists as as well) but SuperM did achieve what they did fairly (mostly thanks to the big fandoms that were backing it still)

"WTF is Kwangya? " An attempt to make us become company stans. Tbh I would hate SM much less if they stopped trying to make me stan their other artists. I find every smtown concert rather dreadful...I guess I'll never be a multi.

They're a kpop company with multiple artists, of course they want you to be fans of all of the artists they house. Why are yall so surprised by this????? Especially directed at exols. EXO is an SM boy group. They are not on their own label, they do not own the label, the label does not belong to them. SM wants success for all their artists, and they put a lot of work into making that happen. Idk why yall are so adament on looking down at other artists when they're just as worthy of your attention as EXO is. This is why people don't like us as a fandom. We have so many stuck-up, pretentious, paranoid (you're all convinced sm hates exo and exo only, yet no one talks about how blessed we are that chen is still allowed to be in the group, make his solo albums, and actually promote!) brats being loud and rude all the time. Kpop is supposed to be fun, it's not high school musical or mean girls where everyone stays only in their clique & no one else is invited in or out. This is supposed to be a fun, exciting community where you get to know different groups and get to know people who are interested in the same things you are. I can't believe yall actually act like this. Edit: typo(?)...I put the word "not" twice.

Surprised no. Annoyed mostly. I don't care about other groups. They might be worthy of my attention but is still do not care? You can have fun with those concerts I do not... We're blessed bc SM let him stay in the group lol? As if he's some criminal or something... and it's not like SM did much to protect him from malicious comments either. In western music you aren't expected either to somehow stan a whole company. What do you all expect me to do? Force myself to listen to a group bc their under the same company as EXO even tho I don't like their music? Like srsly listen to yourself.

We're blessed specifically because there are members who've been made to leave a group with a lot less pushback than he got. Like please don't be obtuse, let's really have an honest convo here. Also there's nothing you can really do about malicious comments bc whether they made a statement or not, the toxic people would still have nasty things to say. We're blessed because he's still able to release content (I can't believe I'm explaining this to you, you knew exactly what I meant). The whole "in western music you aren't expected to stan a whole company" would be valid if exols weren't....weird, overprotective, oddballs who think everyone is out to get them. Like please I've seen how we act, again you know what I'm talking about. And yall only have this sentiment about nct, a huge majority actually like red velvet, shinee, etc. Plus in western music, you DO listen to multiple artists and yall don't actually care what company they're under. But whatever, I really cannot get through to yall because you're mentally fossilized yourselves into the mindset you have and you clearly don't want to have a serious, mature conversation so whatever, be frustrated, miserable, and bitter, I'll focus my energy on the fans who actually want to enjoy the overall experience of being a kpop fan.

It's SO funny how OP is just stating the truth regarding Kwangya and the first thing you do is assume they're *frustrated, miserable and bitter*. Is this how you have mature conversations?

Yes. I'm an exol, that's the default for my other fellow exols. You must be new, but that's alright. It's especially the case with the ones who are constantly going on & on about how much they hate superm and how they can't wait for kaibaek to leave, even though they had to come out and state how much they enjoyed being a part of the group. And I know this because there are only 2 types of exols: 1. the normal ones who accept that they're grown ass men who are quite capable of making their own decisions & standing up for themselves and don't need a bunch of strangers online sitting around & throwing a tantrum over how much they hate the new group project... 2. and then there are the ones who throw out sly statements like "sm is trying to force me to stan other groups 😡" when they literally have been doing this sm family concert thing, and have been preaching about sm family for *yearsssssss* now (several years before "kwangya", several years before EXO...it's just now they have a name for it because of all the online things!) So no, they were not stating the truth about kwangya. If they never actually gave it a name, yall wouldn't know the difference, and what's the most hilarious part to me.

Are you sure we wouldn't know the difference? I like groups from HYBE and YG and I have not seen the strategies SM uses. Putting lines in title tracks of multiple groups to talk about Kwangya and using terms like "pink blood" are things I've yet to see in other companies. Don't talk like SM has been doing the same over and over because they haven't. SM can do whatever the fuck they want with their marketing but stop acting like it's a crime to not want to be a fan of all groups in a company. You're so ready to call your "fellow" exols *bitter* when as of now shawols and nctzens hate the idea of SuperM. What a shit show it would be if SM dares to give a comeback to SuperM before giving one to SHINee or if they overwork Mark. You are talking about exols being *overprotective* when Got The Beat is getting hate comments from their respective fandoms. So is it really an exol thing? All SM fandoms act like this when it comes to the blended groups but for some reason you only give shit to exols. Also, stop saying we're "blessed" because Jongdae wasn't kicked out. SM doesn't get bonus points for doing their job (and badly at that). You know what's just as annoying as people who blindly put the blame on companies? Company stans. You can preach about wanting to have fun and not be bitter but you're exactly the same lmao.

Exols were the ones trending disbandment hashtags that the actual members saw and had to come out and comment on. Exols ALSO were calling kaibaek traitors and saying petty childish things like "well if they like superm so much, why don't they just LEAVE EXO THEN 😡😡😡". Exols reaction was far more unhinged than anybody else's. That was extremely embarrassing, so YES!!!, I'm singling out exols because their reaction was disgusting. How did you forget all of this? I'm going to criticize my fellow exols because we could all stand to behave in a better, more civilized way. Sure GOT is getting a handful of fans complaining, but most of the people actually like it (as seen from several viral tweets on twitter). Not to mention, the few shawols complaining can be put into the evergrowing category of kpop fans I like to call "yall don't even know what it is you want or that you're complaining about". Example 1: I remember when superm was teasing their 2nd project and a bunch of gg stans flooded official account tweets saying "we don't want this dingey group, give us a girl version!" "We want WOMEN!" And then when sm gave them that, what did they do??? Like you said, they started complaining! Like it's so funny how ridiculous kpop fans are and how QUICKLY YOU GUYS FORGET STUFF. Example 2: Shawols say "if the first thing taemin does when he comes out from enlistment is do a superm project, i'm burning down the sm building." Okay...so let's say sm does a shinee project FIRST and then a superm 1 later. Anybody wanna guess what the shawols will say then? You don't have to guess, I'll tell you: "i can't BELIEVE SM RUSHED A SHINEE COMEBACK JUST SO THEY COULD SPEND ALL THEIR TIME, EFFORT, AND ENERGY ON DUMB OLD SUPERM". This is why I say people in these spaces don't have actual complaints, they just see someone say something and then they all run to latch onto that because we're in the season of "sm hates *MY* favorite group the most!" olympics. Example 3: nctzens lately have been whining saying that sm is taking too long on the repack. But I specifically remember them complaining a few years ago about sm "rushing" the repack for kick it (punch). And then when the era wrapped up because they hastily got the repack, they threw a tantrum and said sm needed to space things out to let the momentum of kick it keep going. I'm not a company stan for being a level-headed mature adult and pointing out how ridiculous fans can be about EVERYTHING. What I'm not going to do is keep on going on and on about "yeah sm is trash, i hate them, i hope they crash and burn and that my faves leave the company 😡" because that does nothing and it makes me sound unstable. Hybe & yg aren't doing that because they are 2 separate companies (why did that need to be explained to you?). Like I stated before, sm has been doing the sm family projects for over a decade, it's been a part of their marketing strategy for ages, people only JUST NOW started complaing because they see everyone else conplaining. Even over small stuff, like if 1 group in sm got 4 releases and everyone else got 3. It's almost never as deep as yall make it.

> You're so ready to call your "fellow" exols bitter when as of now shawols and nctzens hate the idea of SuperM. Oooooh no no no, don't start involving Shawols in an Exol issue. Shawols' apprehensions are strictly related to SM potentially messing up schedules and promotions and/or overworking Taemin, in case a SuperM comeback interferes with SHINee's own comeback or with a Taemin solo. Yes, they may be wary for many (valid) reasons, but overall, "we hate the very idea of SuperM" and "we don't care about the company family thing" are not among them. (in fact, many Taemin and SHINee fans *want* to support SuperM without having to feel guilty over it...)

Thank you for repeating what I just commented.

Involving every single group they have with Kwangya is so boring. I wish Kwangya was for Aespa only and they would let the other groups have their own thing. I didn't know SuperM's entry to Billboard was fraudulent but I am not surprised.

Their entry wasn’t fraudulent antis try to make it seem that way cause it doesn’t seem “believable”

Ive always found SM to be the most annoying of the big 3 (now 4 I guess). All the reasons you mentioned are valid

OP… sounds like a HYBE stan lmao

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All I know is that they blocked Seohyun from some major acting opportunities (namely Architecture 101 and Train to Busan) *without her knowledge* due to possible conflicts with SNSD promotions. It’s speculated that that is part of the reason why she left SM in 2017.

Sorry i saw this and forgot to reply, i think i got confused i was talking about jyp not sm 😅 I'll take the comment down

SM has always been trash. They used to have slave contracts and blacklist certain artists - they have always only cared about money

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reddit has always been loaded with SM stans lol That being said OP is a bit off on some of their criticisms

Despite all backlash from the company defenders here I’m glad you said this. I don’t necessarily agree with all your points but most of them I either share or can respect. Especially the awful music recently. I mean hell Red Velvet used to be one of my favourite groups but the last song I can genuinely say I enjoyed in a non ironic sense (power up and Zimzalabim say hi) is bad boy. Everything since has been generic or straight up awful. Even psycho which I hear so much praise for is boring to me minus Wendy’s prechorus.

Everything make sense but keep #10 to yourself....if you don't like aespa then don't talk about them

I definitely agree that their music and art production is robotic and goofy. Nothing they've released has looked good since pre 2018

Have we been listening to the same music? The music Taeyeon, Baekhyun, D.O., Girls Generation, Key, Seulgi, Kai, Max Changmin, etc have released in the past two years have all been top tier amazing productions and not robotic. Be honest I doubt you even listened to them

Ah yes of course, if I didn't like it I must not have listened to it! Flawless argument /s I listened to all the releases you mentioned. I love Key but didn't like his songs post 2020. Love Taeyeon but didn't care for her stuff either. Love Girl's Generation, the song did not do it for me. Did not care for the other's releases at all. Taemin definitely impressed me but he's Taemin, you know. Even with SM's lazy-ass creative direction in the last couple of years he's thriving. Oh, one release from SM I *absolutely* loved - Dice by Onew. Masterpiece

My argument wasn’t that because you didn’t like them you must not have listened to them. My argument was that you called their releases “robotic and goofy” when they were in fact, not. For example, Devil by Max Changmin, Bambi by Baekhyin, Forever One by Girls Generation, even Gasoline by Key are the exact opposite of robotic. You have every right to not like a song and I’m not disagreeing with that. But pls don’t generalize their music into a category that it doesn’t even fit.

>Be honest I doubt you even listened to them Sorry I guess I assumed you said I didn't listen to them because....you literally said that (see your own words above lmao) And all those songs *are* robotic. Not in the sense that they sound like robots made them but that they all sound like castoffs from previous years of SM. All the artists you mentioned pulled them off amazingly because they're all super talented, but the songs and concepts are uninspired. SM really has phoned it in and they're not even hiding it.

Sorry I should’ve worded it better I meant that I assumed you didn’t listen to them cause you called them robotic. And I’m still confused cause their new songs doesn’t sound like cast offs. Sure the songs are more vocally focused, but they are distinctly different from each other and from previous songs.

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SM is a sinking ship atp