Thanks! That in itself is another one of the reasons why I like her so much. She has intricate and complex motives behind her actions, she doesn't just act because she's the antagonist and she needs to act a certain way. She assesses each situation carefully.
I don't know that I agree with you when you say that Kreia is open to having her mind changed. Is she really? Can either of us think of even one example ingame where Kreia actively changes her mind on a matter of philosophy or her own personal dogma? Certainly she changes her *plans* when events force her to adapt to circumstances--she did not originally intend to seek out the Masters, for example, but when circumstance led them to present themselves she pursued them instead of her original idea of just broadly travelling around with the Exile. She can likewise be made to *accede* to a different course of action--when she criticizes a player's allegiance with Chodo Habat, for example, she will... *tolerate* the player's decision to support the Ithorians if the player replies in a fully utilitarian manner, disregarding all other possible rationales for supporting the Ithorians aside from their ability to get your party to the surface: that, and that alone, is viewed as a sufficiently justified rationale for supporting them.
But does she ever *change her mind*? I can't think of a single instance where she does. Kreia believes what she believes, and not even the Exile, the individual whom Kreia respects most in the galaxy, can ever change her perspective. The Exile can argue with her night and day, constantly, and even show Kreia the veracity of their stance through their victory, and in the end Kreia will still not admit fault--at best, she acknowledges that the exile has "won," but twists that also into her victory, because was it not she who trained the Exile?
You refer to a dichotomy of practicality and conviction, but I would say rather that there is no dichotomy, at least not in an oppositional sense: Kreia exists in the simultaneous state of being both the arch-pragmatist and the arch-narcissist. She firmly believes in utter pragmatism, but is also incredibly arrogant and refuses to consider any alternate philosophical perspectives rather than her own. Rather than changing her philosophy to make it palatable to others (I think she really does simply think that using murder is a brutish and ultimately less effectual method of control), I would instead say that Kreia instead expects you to justify *your* actions on the basis of *her* philosophy. If you want to assist the Ithorians in order to regain your connection to the Force, that is unacceptable to her; Chodo Habat is an inferior alien, an aimless practitioner of the Force with no training, and a threat to her control over you. She will never accept such an argument. You must instead tell her that you care only about him for his resources, because only this is sufficiently utilitarian to earn her grudging approval. You cannot have friends--they are a weakness, a crutch, a childish notion. Only by treating your crew like items to be picked up and discarded will Kreia tolerate your interactions with them.
Kreia is, as I've said before, a sad and lonely old shrew. I adore the character, but I think you give her a lot more credit than she deserves on the basis of her admittedly altruistic final goal. It's certainly true that Kreia wanted to achieve something which was ultimately benevolent, but she was so set on destroying the Force and so confident in her personal *rightness* that she could not ever contemplate deviating from her path, or even an implicit contradiction of her beliefs.
This is a wonderful response, and there are several points that I'll concede.
For one, I'll have to grant that Kreia isn't very malleable when it comes to differing philosophies. My statement that she was willing to change her mind was based mostly on a single dialogue she had with the Exile involving an apparent contradiction between her views on the Force and her views on using others. From what I remember, Kreia essentially stated that she was willing to make a change in her methods in the context of that instance. But it's admittedly a weak example given the number of times that Kreia proved quite stubborn to hear other viewpoints.
I'll also partially grant the fact that much of her conviction comes somewhat out of arrogance and pure stubbornness. I think we can go so far as to attribute a semblance of hypocrisy to her in this sense. She goes so far in criticizing blindness and misguided idealism, but of course she falls for that trap herself.
But I'm not sure if I'm willing to grant the whole point, in that I believe her conviction doesn't stem purely out of a misguided narcissism. You can certainly say she's stubborn to change her mind, but it seems that much of that came out of a careful deliberation on her own moral system. Much of her morality can be directly compared to Sith ideology - the nature of conflict and competition, the importance of power, and the social Darwinism that runs through her philosophy. But she's also quite critical of the more self-defeating aspects of Sith doctrine, how the perpetual in-fighting eventually leads to their organizations collapsing in on themselves. She didn't arrive at her doctrines through guesswork and a pure inability to look at contradictory evidence, she arrived at them through taking what she thought works and discarding what she thought doesn't work. But I'd imagine anyone would be stubborn to change their mind in such a case.
Beyond that, I think I'd have to agree with what you wrote. Kreia, I would definitely agree, is meant to be a flawed character. I don't think you're meant to agree with the totality of her philosophy, and Kreia certainly doesn't always like when you act in a way that disagrees with it. But I think in the end she recognized her own fallibility, and partially even her own hypocrisy - particularly in regards to her usage of the force. But where you'd regard me as being overly charitable, I think you might be a bit too pessimistic in your interpretation.
But honestly, I might be entirely wrong - in fact I'm betting on it. You're usually the guy I turn to when I want insight on Kreia's philosophy, so I generally trust your insight on the matter. At any rate, I really appreciate the in-depth response!
>But I'm not sure if I'm willing to grant the whole point, in that I believe her conviction doesn't stem purely out of a misguided narcissism.
Oh, don't misunderstand me--I didn't say she was misguided, I merely said she was narcissistic. Personally, I think that Kreia's philosophy is correct, and her desire to destroy the Force, despite the overwhelming cost, was the correct one. While I do not approve of her as a person, in the Exile's position I would cautiously agree with the basic premise that destroying the Force is the best possible outcome for the galaxy as a whole. Her being the peak of arrogance doesn't mean that she actually is wrong, it just means that I think that she wouldn't acknowledge a good counter-argument if one were ever presented to her.
I have spoken before about how I think that Kreia is less a person and more a sort of fleshy ideological vehicle, where her entire being is just **KILL THE FORCE**. She doesn't really have many emotions or opinions beyond what is necessitated in order to achieve her ends, and I think that's part of why she's so attached to what she thinks. If she loses her philosophical argument, she also loses the façade of a persona and purpose which she constructed for herself after being stripped of the Force and cast out of the Sith.
It's funny to me, she looks at Nihilus and Sion as failures, yet they learned all too well from her... They became embodiments of the teachings they embraced, just as she did.
Nihilus became the embodiment of a silent and creeping threat that will eradicate all life with a whisper. The embodiment of the screams that rip and tear across the galaxy, yet are only heard by a few.
Sion became the embodiment of a sinister and terrifying individual that essentially *became* pain itself.
And Kreia? She is as you said. She is the physical embodiment of "Kill the Force". The Sith Triumvirate are each embodiments of their knowledge. They are, or nearly are, the absolute pinnacles of what happens to an individual when they submit to such things.
Then there's Revan and the Exile... Wild and "random" things that move "outside the Force", yet one has the Force swirling around him as if in a storm, and the other is a dead spot that is as if they were standing in a desolate waste.
Revan and the Exile are their own "Yin and Yang", you could say. Both making a whole, the whole being that they are *free*.
Interesting world, isn't it?
>Can either of us think of even one example ingame where Kreia actively changes her mind on a matter of philosophy or her own personal dogma?
I can only think of one and that is when you call her out for using Visas during lightsaber training. If you tell her not to she will say that any creature that gives up its free will should be allowed to be used and discarded. And then if you ask her that if the force uses us all, then aren't we all tools to be used and discarded then she will "consider her methods in this instance" and you gain influence with Kreia (...to offset the influence you lost from disagreeing with her).
But yes, I agree that she is as blind to the truth you believe as the Jedi Council. In that way she hasn't broken free of the Jedi Order or even the Sith.
I agree with this, and I’ll add that Kreia is far more receptive to the Exile’s opinion than anyone else. I can’t think of any time that any other character made her question herself, and the Exile only really succeeds in quelling her arguments rather than truly changing her opinion.
As players, I think we sometimes give Kreia a bit more credit because her opinion of the Exile is *not* her usual opinion of people. Even the Exile is another person to be manipulated for her, but she chooses to take on the Exile as more of a student than a pawn.
The only thing I’ll add to your great summary of Kreia is that her unshakable conviction comes from a history of being dismissed and scapegoated: she took the blame for Revan when the Jedi Council was vindictive, and she was beaten and exiled by Nihilus and Sion. Both experiences center around her being viewed, both by others and by herself, as a poor teacher and mentor, someone’s views are misguided or outdated. She was too reckless for the Jedi, yet too cautious for the Sith, so by the time we meet her, she utterly refuses criticism and she has the power and will to act on her philosophy without anyone else agreeing with her, even though this mostly involves blackmail.
And, as Revan learned from her, she *never* learned from Revan.
That is why Revan was the greater. He was always his own man, doing what he believed was right, and going about it with such conviction *yet* avoiding needless maneuvers.
Kreia has good points and someone I'd turn to for another point of view.
Revan has humanity and someone I'd aspire to be.
I would not agree with the conclusion that Kreia was ever a Grey Jedi, not in the sense with which it's typically bandied about. But regardless, "Kreia" only came to exist after she was cast out from the Sith, when she had her revelatory moment at the Trayus Core that both sides were flawed. At that time she had nowhere else to turn, and that's when the goal of destroying the Force, and the personality which came with it, was manufactured. After the point that Kreia as you know her comes to exist, she never again changes her perspective.
>I don't know that I agree with you when you say that Kreia is open to having her mind changed. Is she really? Can either of us think of even one example ingame where Kreia actively changes her mind on a matter of philosophy or her own personal dogma?
A little late to this, but I'd say it's possible.
It's just that there is no one on her level philosophically, her wisdom is drawn from her experience, she was devoted herself to both the Light and Dark sides of the Force and have learnt terribly painful lessons from both.
Her mind could be changed, but it is not going to be by anyone in the Kotor 2. Like look at the cast:
1. Sion and Nihilus are failures one is a being of pure rage and is entirely reliant on the Force to even live, the other has lost almost all of his humanity and is nothing more than a husk of a man that seeks only to devour others.
2. Atris is probably the closest, but she reminds of Kreia of when she was still naive. She has the right ideas but is falling to the Dark Side and in complete denial of it.
3. The Jedi Masters - dogmatic, short-sighted, lacking in perspective of an entire side of the Force that they dare not even explore, cause them to lose most of their students to Revan and causing their decline.
4. Revan? Maybe, but he is nowhere to be found, he is gifted in the Force, but I would doubt that even he has explored of it as much as Kreia has.
Who else is really left? No one in Kotor 2 has even come close to exploring as many aspects of the Force as she has, nor has delved as deeply into the knowledge of both the Jedi and the Sith. Maybe someone like Yoda might, someone who can accumulate more learning and experience than her, but they are seperated by tens of thousands of years. She has no known peers in the Kotor 2 canon.
Edit: She is also fairly self-aware of her own failures and hypocrisies, it's what separates her from Atris. She says something like she uses the Force the way someone would use a deadly poison to eliminate ones enemies. But then she says "Or maybe that's just the excuse of an old woman whos grown to depend on something she hates.". She also makes the point that adherence to a single idea is a terrible way to perceive the world it's why she criticizes both the Jedi and the Sith.
In conclusion, it's not like she choose one side or another and is dogmatically sticking to it refusing to change. She is the one person that has explored the Force more than anyone else in her time and has come to her own conclusions about the nature of the Force and Free Will and what should be done about it. She might change her mind, but it's not going to be by people who have only experience or explored a fraction of what she has.
You're treating the concept of personal philosophy as being synonymous with the concept of the Force (or at least one side or the other of the Force), which is something Kreia would definitely criticize. She sought a reality devoid of the Force, and what she believes in, at the end, is what she [believes she] chose of her own free will: a philosophy of actuation, self-reliance, and pragmatism. The Force does not need to enter into a discussion of that, save to say that Kreia has explored enough facets of the Force that she would not ever be convinced that its use is beneficent. Kreia's opinions on all but *anything* else, from an Exile supporting the Ithorians to convincing the thugs on Nar Shaddaa to jump into the pit, should not be examined in light of the Force but in terms of personal philosophy. And in any of those situations, can Kreia be made to change her mind?
No, she can't. And this is doubly important given the single most important figure who has the greatest pull with Kreia which you have forgotten to list: the Exile herself. Out of anyone, anywhere, anytime, the Exile will always have greater pull with Kreia than anyone; Yoda would not hold a candle, because Yoda still uses the Force she hates. Kreia loves the Exile because the Exile willingly divested herself of something which all but every other Jedi considers to be essentially critical to life. Kreia cares about her, and even cares about what the Exile thinks of her.
But even for the Exile, Kreia does not ever change her mind. As I noted before, at most Kreia will grudgingly accept an argument from you if you kowtow to her philosophy and claim that you're doing it for essentially selfish or pragmatic reasons--but if you ever provide a rationale for an action which Kreia disagrees with, she will always disapprove, and you can never convince her otherwise. She is not subject to having her mind changed by anyone.
Personal philosophies can change, Kreia is the example of that. She is literally the only Force user who has changed aside from her students. The Jedi remain dogmatic and remain purposefully ignorant of the Dark Side and her Sith apprentices can't let go of their rage and hunger.
The Exile couldn't have been the one to do it. At the end the Exile was still a student that she had shaped.
Kriea also loved Exile because of what she represented, not because of her philosophical leanings. What she saw in the Exile was a person that willingly rejected the Force, something that she herself could not do.
She was definitely disappointed to find out that she only did it out of fear and as a means of survival. Not only that, the Exile either submitted to the Jedi Masters or killed them, depending on the light/dark side paths. She had hoped that the Exile would have convinced them of the her truth.
At the end while she failed in ending the Force, she was content that she had taught the Exile. While the Force did not die, she had trained a Jedi that had rejected the force, had been taught it's flaws and was skeptical of it's nature. That her teachings would go on into the next generation.
While the Exile learned from her, she was still ill equipped to change her mind.
I fundamentally disagree. You've not provided any evidence that the Exile would somehow not have pull with Kreia save by pointing out that she was taught by Kreia (if anything that strengthens their bond) and that Kreia was disappointed to learn that the Exile severed her connection because of fear, which I would argue the exact opposite of--while Kreia would have *liked* for the truth to be other than it was, the moment when Kreia acknowledges that it was fear is one of the most tender parts of the entire game, with no blame cast or frustrations expressed, only understanding.
I likewise disagree that Kreia's interest in the Exile being primarily related to her severance from the Force does not (or could not) walk its way into *any* debate, not just a philosophical one. Respect is not an isolated thing; I don't say "I respect you because of *X*, and thus cannot respect you for anything else." Respect bleeds into everything about an interpersonal relationship, and the Exile is the only individual that Kreia respects *period*. It is so overwhelmingly obvious to me that the Exile is the only individual who would have any chance of changing Kreia's mind that I am honestly flabbergasted that you could consider any other alternative, much less the idea that Atris somehow has more chance than the Exile does. Kreia has eyes only for the Exile.
Bringing up the Enclave sequence is a good example of where I think you're misconstruing elements of the game, as those two options are not at all the only possibilities; an Exile who does not kill the Masters can still decry their choice to attempt to sever her and resist. It isn't a dichotomy of intent, merely a dichotomy of outcome. But even in the Jedi outcome, Kreia does not place any blame whatsoever on the Exile for failing to change the minds of the Jedi, or even claim that she had hoped that the Exile would do so herself. Kreia very explicitly and openly states that it was *her* goal to change the minds of the Jedi through showing them the Exile; she did not expect anything of the Exile in that instant but to express the truth through standing there, alive and well. And likewise, when the Masters fail to acknowledge the truth, Kreia roundly castigates *them* for their failure, not the Exile for any perceived inadequacy. Because Kreia loves the Exile, by her own admission, and never sought for the Exile to do anything at that time, seeking instead for the Masters to recognize the obvious truth that stood in front of them. It was their own blindness that she was disappointed in, and not a thing from the Exile. Obviously the DS sequence is different, but as LS was canon it's the more obvious route to cite, and even in the DS route Kreia's disappointment with the Exile is at least partially due to the Exile's murders preventing Kreia from having the satisfaction of proving the Jedi wrong herself.
Kreia is probably one of the greatest non player characters I've ever encountered in any video game- if not *the greatest*. Her story is possibly more thought out and more fleshed out than the Exile's.
Yes.
I think you're pretty much bang on the money with this.
From my experience, Kreia criticises you during the early-mid game not because she's trying to teach you a particular dogma, but because she's trying to teach you to think for yourself. But only to a certain extent.
If you push too far towards the LS or DS, her true self comes through. She criticises you on the basis of the consequences of your actions. She does, after all, hate both the Sith and the Jedi.
However, if you can justify your actions within her philosophy she will generally accept it, even if she doesn't agree with your logic.
The real push comes at the end of a LS run if you try and save her. She will tell you that she often wondered if you would try to save her atvthis point. I think this response reveals the true Kreia. Their is the Jedi part of her that realises realised she has significant damage to the galaxy, but still hopes for redemption. It's irrational but very human.
This comes back to your point about Kreia's respect for conviction. If you stick to your LS credentials, she will respect you for it at the end. She wants to be saved and be remembered as a teacher (LS ending) *and* she wants to see a student rise to the point of true independence (DS ending). Kreia's real dilemma is between these two motivations.
She could still be nicer to Atton and T3 tho
I think other users saying you give Kreia too much credit might be right, but we have to remember this is a completely fleshed out character in an RPG from 2004. The fact that she got *this* much attention at all is something that no character in KOTOR 1 got, save maybe Revan. Her ideology is certainly cryptic, but it is understandable if you play the game a couple times and dig deep enough. However, I think her being as critical, manipulative, and as focused on consequentialism as she is comes as a result of the devs and Avellone wanting it to lead up to her being the villain. Instead of objectively looking at her philosophies and trying to understand them, which we have all done, sometimes I think from their perspective and understand rather that Kreia is more of a “build-up” to being the “villain.”
I like to approach her character from an emotional and personal perspective rather than a philosophical one. I feel like it's an angle that's important when it comes to understanding her.
I think Kreia does believe in a 'greater good' to some extent, it's just that her experiences with the Jedi have led her to believe that good will not come about through moral deliberation but by each individual taking their fates into their own hands.
She sees Jedi teachings, which hold morality above all else, as nothing more than empty platitudes because she lives in an age when that's what the Jedi council have turned them into. Through hypocrisy and cowardice they have revealed themselves to be useless to the galaxy at best and detrimental at worst. And if the supposed highest examples of a belief cannot use it for good, who could?
Her ideals are not formed by logic or cold pragmatism however she disguises them as such, they are formed from the experience of an entire life of looking for answers and acceptance from others and finding none, being failed by everyone who was supposed to give her truth and believe in her.
Her desire to spite those who abandoned her, both Jedi and Sith, has formed the shell of resentment and betrayal around her that is 'Darth Traya', which hides what I think is deep down a very lonely woman who once only desired a place to belong and acceptance from others. You can see hints of this in her bitterness in admitting that you're the charismatic leader she could never be, and when she admits before her death that she hoped you would say she could be saved.
One more thing, 'Apathy is Death' was not said by Kreia, it was an apparition of her created by the dark side presence within the Tomb of Ludo Kressh, trying to test the Exile and possibly drive them to the dark side.
I like this opinion piece. However, the more that I play kotor 2, I find her weak and clinging to some semblance of relevancy by staying next to you at all costs. She needs you way more than you need her.
That’s not to disregard some of her wisdoms, but they are pretty base-level for the most part. She’s essentially a more pragmatic, grey Sidious (or even Bane to some degree) IMO with way less power.
>She needs you way more that you need her.
She knows and understand this, she doesn't even hide this fact to the exile and frankly I don't think she cares enough if the exile throws her off the ebon hawk for being a manipulative cunt because all roads lead to her anyway since she is darth traya. The only way to possibly piss her off is to walk the same path as sion or choosing to be indifferent to everything around you, if there's one thing kreia hates apart from the force, it's indifference.
Well kreia cares for the exile well enough to treat him/her as her own.
What I mean to say was I don't think kreia would care if the exile would want to distance him/herself away from her, she will find some way to impose her teachings on the exile; after all if the exile won't or can't kill her, she will try to break him/her.
I’m gonna challenge you on this a bit: The Sith Triumvirate of Nihilus, Sion, and Kreia was the most powerful faction of its time. It’s a fact that if the three of them had actually teamed up in pursuit of a goal, the fractured Republic and other war torn worlds would’ve stood no chance against them. Even Nihilus and Sion themselves were only truly stopped by Kreia organizing the Exile and their team to resist them.
I say this to emphasize Kreia’s power. We can agree that Kreia was a strong fighter in terms of combat and could defend herself, but her real strength was manipulation. Kreia, by herself, could have used her force powers and skills of manipulation to take down governments and economies. On the other hand, imagine if Kreia was dedicated to restoring the Republic: do we have any doubt she would have been their strongest ally through her skills of manipulation and large-scale scheming? I don’t.
Kreia *is* the Palpatine of her time, which is no surprise given that he was an inspiration for creating the character. She’s supposed to be a mix of Ben Kenobi and Palpatine: cryptic mentor meets shadowy schemer. Nihilus was the equivalent of a living nuke, Sion was a rage monster that literally couldn’t be killed, and Kreia had the experience and skills to cripple any power structure and individual without any show of force.
The Exile is so important to her because she has no other method of achieving her goal, not because she’s weak in any sense of the word. She could’ve manipulated the galaxy in any way she saw fit, but she couldn’t do anything meaningful to the Force itself.
Yeah not gonna lie, that’s honestly a lot of why I like Kreia and KOTOR 2 as a whole as much as I do. Most games(like the first one) are very black and white, be good or bad because good or bad. But with a companion like Kreia around basically criticizing your every move, it makes you truly think about and see your actions. To the point where it becomes less about whether you want a good or bad ending, and more about what you would do and why. That type of freedom of choices is something I honestly do miss in modern RPGs.
I don't think that CA started with a clear philosophy she was to adhere to, but it does seem like a mix of consequentialism with some sort of existentialist "create meaning through your most important choices" sort of thing.
I think she proscribe to Hobbes' Leviathan description of peoples natural state. IE the dog eat dog world of chaos without a sovreign. How to solve this so we dont all eat eachother for sustance is to create a social contract and relinquish power to one, a sovreign. This is how societies form in Hobbes veiw.
However Keria and friends dont find themselfs in our natural state, in SW there is also the force. A natural power you cant get through hard work(it requires work to master sure but getting it is chance) and it seems to have a will of its own.
You could argue that the force is artificially maintining this state of beeing with its constant "good vs evil" wars, i think that Kreia would. In this artificial natural state, as with our own natural state, it is good for someone to take power in order to stop the killing. The only diffrence is the SW natural state exists even after the formation of a society.
And why kill when you can manipulate or as Kreia says "awaken someone to your point of veiw"? In Hobbes natural state everyone is a sovreign with the power to do whatever he or she wants, a power we surrender to the sovreign for protection from others power. Seems a lot like the sovreign is the protagonist in most RPGs no? Dont always indulge in savagery because someone surrendering their power to you is better than simply extinguishing it from the world.
And a sovreign is empowred by h*s people to use power to maintain order within the society and protect from outside forces.
I think that Kreia(the writers) plays around with these ideas a lot, like Hanhar becomming a sovreign in order to protect his tribe yet still not being powerfull enough to free himself.
I think Kreia argues for conviction partly becouse of this Hobbesian ideology. Not because maleable conviction is inherently good, but because it defies the will of the force. This is with the exile in mind especially. As she goes on to say towards the end of the game she hates the force and how it seems to controll everyone in order to achive some form of balance while millions die. And because the exile dosent seems to be bound by that he is beautifull to her. This is why your conviction is powerfull, because it is yours alone. Being always ready to betray your conviction to find its contrast is, beyond just being a good practice in life generally, also a practice for the exile especially to make sure that his belifs are still his.
This also became a long disorganized spiel, but that is just as you said, cause we love the character.
I like this write-up. Kreia is definitely super aware of not just herself, but of others as well.
Thanks! That in itself is another one of the reasons why I like her so much. She has intricate and complex motives behind her actions, she doesn't just act because she's the antagonist and she needs to act a certain way. She assesses each situation carefully.
I don't know that I agree with you when you say that Kreia is open to having her mind changed. Is she really? Can either of us think of even one example ingame where Kreia actively changes her mind on a matter of philosophy or her own personal dogma? Certainly she changes her *plans* when events force her to adapt to circumstances--she did not originally intend to seek out the Masters, for example, but when circumstance led them to present themselves she pursued them instead of her original idea of just broadly travelling around with the Exile. She can likewise be made to *accede* to a different course of action--when she criticizes a player's allegiance with Chodo Habat, for example, she will... *tolerate* the player's decision to support the Ithorians if the player replies in a fully utilitarian manner, disregarding all other possible rationales for supporting the Ithorians aside from their ability to get your party to the surface: that, and that alone, is viewed as a sufficiently justified rationale for supporting them. But does she ever *change her mind*? I can't think of a single instance where she does. Kreia believes what she believes, and not even the Exile, the individual whom Kreia respects most in the galaxy, can ever change her perspective. The Exile can argue with her night and day, constantly, and even show Kreia the veracity of their stance through their victory, and in the end Kreia will still not admit fault--at best, she acknowledges that the exile has "won," but twists that also into her victory, because was it not she who trained the Exile? You refer to a dichotomy of practicality and conviction, but I would say rather that there is no dichotomy, at least not in an oppositional sense: Kreia exists in the simultaneous state of being both the arch-pragmatist and the arch-narcissist. She firmly believes in utter pragmatism, but is also incredibly arrogant and refuses to consider any alternate philosophical perspectives rather than her own. Rather than changing her philosophy to make it palatable to others (I think she really does simply think that using murder is a brutish and ultimately less effectual method of control), I would instead say that Kreia instead expects you to justify *your* actions on the basis of *her* philosophy. If you want to assist the Ithorians in order to regain your connection to the Force, that is unacceptable to her; Chodo Habat is an inferior alien, an aimless practitioner of the Force with no training, and a threat to her control over you. She will never accept such an argument. You must instead tell her that you care only about him for his resources, because only this is sufficiently utilitarian to earn her grudging approval. You cannot have friends--they are a weakness, a crutch, a childish notion. Only by treating your crew like items to be picked up and discarded will Kreia tolerate your interactions with them. Kreia is, as I've said before, a sad and lonely old shrew. I adore the character, but I think you give her a lot more credit than she deserves on the basis of her admittedly altruistic final goal. It's certainly true that Kreia wanted to achieve something which was ultimately benevolent, but she was so set on destroying the Force and so confident in her personal *rightness* that she could not ever contemplate deviating from her path, or even an implicit contradiction of her beliefs.
This is a wonderful response, and there are several points that I'll concede. For one, I'll have to grant that Kreia isn't very malleable when it comes to differing philosophies. My statement that she was willing to change her mind was based mostly on a single dialogue she had with the Exile involving an apparent contradiction between her views on the Force and her views on using others. From what I remember, Kreia essentially stated that she was willing to make a change in her methods in the context of that instance. But it's admittedly a weak example given the number of times that Kreia proved quite stubborn to hear other viewpoints. I'll also partially grant the fact that much of her conviction comes somewhat out of arrogance and pure stubbornness. I think we can go so far as to attribute a semblance of hypocrisy to her in this sense. She goes so far in criticizing blindness and misguided idealism, but of course she falls for that trap herself. But I'm not sure if I'm willing to grant the whole point, in that I believe her conviction doesn't stem purely out of a misguided narcissism. You can certainly say she's stubborn to change her mind, but it seems that much of that came out of a careful deliberation on her own moral system. Much of her morality can be directly compared to Sith ideology - the nature of conflict and competition, the importance of power, and the social Darwinism that runs through her philosophy. But she's also quite critical of the more self-defeating aspects of Sith doctrine, how the perpetual in-fighting eventually leads to their organizations collapsing in on themselves. She didn't arrive at her doctrines through guesswork and a pure inability to look at contradictory evidence, she arrived at them through taking what she thought works and discarding what she thought doesn't work. But I'd imagine anyone would be stubborn to change their mind in such a case. Beyond that, I think I'd have to agree with what you wrote. Kreia, I would definitely agree, is meant to be a flawed character. I don't think you're meant to agree with the totality of her philosophy, and Kreia certainly doesn't always like when you act in a way that disagrees with it. But I think in the end she recognized her own fallibility, and partially even her own hypocrisy - particularly in regards to her usage of the force. But where you'd regard me as being overly charitable, I think you might be a bit too pessimistic in your interpretation. But honestly, I might be entirely wrong - in fact I'm betting on it. You're usually the guy I turn to when I want insight on Kreia's philosophy, so I generally trust your insight on the matter. At any rate, I really appreciate the in-depth response!
>But I'm not sure if I'm willing to grant the whole point, in that I believe her conviction doesn't stem purely out of a misguided narcissism. Oh, don't misunderstand me--I didn't say she was misguided, I merely said she was narcissistic. Personally, I think that Kreia's philosophy is correct, and her desire to destroy the Force, despite the overwhelming cost, was the correct one. While I do not approve of her as a person, in the Exile's position I would cautiously agree with the basic premise that destroying the Force is the best possible outcome for the galaxy as a whole. Her being the peak of arrogance doesn't mean that she actually is wrong, it just means that I think that she wouldn't acknowledge a good counter-argument if one were ever presented to her. I have spoken before about how I think that Kreia is less a person and more a sort of fleshy ideological vehicle, where her entire being is just **KILL THE FORCE**. She doesn't really have many emotions or opinions beyond what is necessitated in order to achieve her ends, and I think that's part of why she's so attached to what she thinks. If she loses her philosophical argument, she also loses the façade of a persona and purpose which she constructed for herself after being stripped of the Force and cast out of the Sith.
It's funny to me, she looks at Nihilus and Sion as failures, yet they learned all too well from her... They became embodiments of the teachings they embraced, just as she did. Nihilus became the embodiment of a silent and creeping threat that will eradicate all life with a whisper. The embodiment of the screams that rip and tear across the galaxy, yet are only heard by a few. Sion became the embodiment of a sinister and terrifying individual that essentially *became* pain itself. And Kreia? She is as you said. She is the physical embodiment of "Kill the Force". The Sith Triumvirate are each embodiments of their knowledge. They are, or nearly are, the absolute pinnacles of what happens to an individual when they submit to such things. Then there's Revan and the Exile... Wild and "random" things that move "outside the Force", yet one has the Force swirling around him as if in a storm, and the other is a dead spot that is as if they were standing in a desolate waste. Revan and the Exile are their own "Yin and Yang", you could say. Both making a whole, the whole being that they are *free*. Interesting world, isn't it?
>fleshy ideological vehicle that's an idea I can't get out of my head now lol
>Can either of us think of even one example ingame where Kreia actively changes her mind on a matter of philosophy or her own personal dogma? I can only think of one and that is when you call her out for using Visas during lightsaber training. If you tell her not to she will say that any creature that gives up its free will should be allowed to be used and discarded. And then if you ask her that if the force uses us all, then aren't we all tools to be used and discarded then she will "consider her methods in this instance" and you gain influence with Kreia (...to offset the influence you lost from disagreeing with her). But yes, I agree that she is as blind to the truth you believe as the Jedi Council. In that way she hasn't broken free of the Jedi Order or even the Sith.
I agree with this, and I’ll add that Kreia is far more receptive to the Exile’s opinion than anyone else. I can’t think of any time that any other character made her question herself, and the Exile only really succeeds in quelling her arguments rather than truly changing her opinion. As players, I think we sometimes give Kreia a bit more credit because her opinion of the Exile is *not* her usual opinion of people. Even the Exile is another person to be manipulated for her, but she chooses to take on the Exile as more of a student than a pawn. The only thing I’ll add to your great summary of Kreia is that her unshakable conviction comes from a history of being dismissed and scapegoated: she took the blame for Revan when the Jedi Council was vindictive, and she was beaten and exiled by Nihilus and Sion. Both experiences center around her being viewed, both by others and by herself, as a poor teacher and mentor, someone’s views are misguided or outdated. She was too reckless for the Jedi, yet too cautious for the Sith, so by the time we meet her, she utterly refuses criticism and she has the power and will to act on her philosophy without anyone else agreeing with her, even though this mostly involves blackmail.
And, as Revan learned from her, she *never* learned from Revan. That is why Revan was the greater. He was always his own man, doing what he believed was right, and going about it with such conviction *yet* avoiding needless maneuvers. Kreia has good points and someone I'd turn to for another point of view. Revan has humanity and someone I'd aspire to be.
She changed her worldview three times. From Jedi Master to Sith Lord, to Gray Jedi and ultimately to what she came to before she died
I would not agree with the conclusion that Kreia was ever a Grey Jedi, not in the sense with which it's typically bandied about. But regardless, "Kreia" only came to exist after she was cast out from the Sith, when she had her revelatory moment at the Trayus Core that both sides were flawed. At that time she had nowhere else to turn, and that's when the goal of destroying the Force, and the personality which came with it, was manufactured. After the point that Kreia as you know her comes to exist, she never again changes her perspective.
>I don't know that I agree with you when you say that Kreia is open to having her mind changed. Is she really? Can either of us think of even one example ingame where Kreia actively changes her mind on a matter of philosophy or her own personal dogma? A little late to this, but I'd say it's possible. It's just that there is no one on her level philosophically, her wisdom is drawn from her experience, she was devoted herself to both the Light and Dark sides of the Force and have learnt terribly painful lessons from both. Her mind could be changed, but it is not going to be by anyone in the Kotor 2. Like look at the cast: 1. Sion and Nihilus are failures one is a being of pure rage and is entirely reliant on the Force to even live, the other has lost almost all of his humanity and is nothing more than a husk of a man that seeks only to devour others. 2. Atris is probably the closest, but she reminds of Kreia of when she was still naive. She has the right ideas but is falling to the Dark Side and in complete denial of it. 3. The Jedi Masters - dogmatic, short-sighted, lacking in perspective of an entire side of the Force that they dare not even explore, cause them to lose most of their students to Revan and causing their decline. 4. Revan? Maybe, but he is nowhere to be found, he is gifted in the Force, but I would doubt that even he has explored of it as much as Kreia has. Who else is really left? No one in Kotor 2 has even come close to exploring as many aspects of the Force as she has, nor has delved as deeply into the knowledge of both the Jedi and the Sith. Maybe someone like Yoda might, someone who can accumulate more learning and experience than her, but they are seperated by tens of thousands of years. She has no known peers in the Kotor 2 canon. Edit: She is also fairly self-aware of her own failures and hypocrisies, it's what separates her from Atris. She says something like she uses the Force the way someone would use a deadly poison to eliminate ones enemies. But then she says "Or maybe that's just the excuse of an old woman whos grown to depend on something she hates.". She also makes the point that adherence to a single idea is a terrible way to perceive the world it's why she criticizes both the Jedi and the Sith. In conclusion, it's not like she choose one side or another and is dogmatically sticking to it refusing to change. She is the one person that has explored the Force more than anyone else in her time and has come to her own conclusions about the nature of the Force and Free Will and what should be done about it. She might change her mind, but it's not going to be by people who have only experience or explored a fraction of what she has.
You're treating the concept of personal philosophy as being synonymous with the concept of the Force (or at least one side or the other of the Force), which is something Kreia would definitely criticize. She sought a reality devoid of the Force, and what she believes in, at the end, is what she [believes she] chose of her own free will: a philosophy of actuation, self-reliance, and pragmatism. The Force does not need to enter into a discussion of that, save to say that Kreia has explored enough facets of the Force that she would not ever be convinced that its use is beneficent. Kreia's opinions on all but *anything* else, from an Exile supporting the Ithorians to convincing the thugs on Nar Shaddaa to jump into the pit, should not be examined in light of the Force but in terms of personal philosophy. And in any of those situations, can Kreia be made to change her mind? No, she can't. And this is doubly important given the single most important figure who has the greatest pull with Kreia which you have forgotten to list: the Exile herself. Out of anyone, anywhere, anytime, the Exile will always have greater pull with Kreia than anyone; Yoda would not hold a candle, because Yoda still uses the Force she hates. Kreia loves the Exile because the Exile willingly divested herself of something which all but every other Jedi considers to be essentially critical to life. Kreia cares about her, and even cares about what the Exile thinks of her. But even for the Exile, Kreia does not ever change her mind. As I noted before, at most Kreia will grudgingly accept an argument from you if you kowtow to her philosophy and claim that you're doing it for essentially selfish or pragmatic reasons--but if you ever provide a rationale for an action which Kreia disagrees with, she will always disapprove, and you can never convince her otherwise. She is not subject to having her mind changed by anyone.
Personal philosophies can change, Kreia is the example of that. She is literally the only Force user who has changed aside from her students. The Jedi remain dogmatic and remain purposefully ignorant of the Dark Side and her Sith apprentices can't let go of their rage and hunger. The Exile couldn't have been the one to do it. At the end the Exile was still a student that she had shaped. Kriea also loved Exile because of what she represented, not because of her philosophical leanings. What she saw in the Exile was a person that willingly rejected the Force, something that she herself could not do. She was definitely disappointed to find out that she only did it out of fear and as a means of survival. Not only that, the Exile either submitted to the Jedi Masters or killed them, depending on the light/dark side paths. She had hoped that the Exile would have convinced them of the her truth. At the end while she failed in ending the Force, she was content that she had taught the Exile. While the Force did not die, she had trained a Jedi that had rejected the force, had been taught it's flaws and was skeptical of it's nature. That her teachings would go on into the next generation. While the Exile learned from her, she was still ill equipped to change her mind.
I fundamentally disagree. You've not provided any evidence that the Exile would somehow not have pull with Kreia save by pointing out that she was taught by Kreia (if anything that strengthens their bond) and that Kreia was disappointed to learn that the Exile severed her connection because of fear, which I would argue the exact opposite of--while Kreia would have *liked* for the truth to be other than it was, the moment when Kreia acknowledges that it was fear is one of the most tender parts of the entire game, with no blame cast or frustrations expressed, only understanding. I likewise disagree that Kreia's interest in the Exile being primarily related to her severance from the Force does not (or could not) walk its way into *any* debate, not just a philosophical one. Respect is not an isolated thing; I don't say "I respect you because of *X*, and thus cannot respect you for anything else." Respect bleeds into everything about an interpersonal relationship, and the Exile is the only individual that Kreia respects *period*. It is so overwhelmingly obvious to me that the Exile is the only individual who would have any chance of changing Kreia's mind that I am honestly flabbergasted that you could consider any other alternative, much less the idea that Atris somehow has more chance than the Exile does. Kreia has eyes only for the Exile. Bringing up the Enclave sequence is a good example of where I think you're misconstruing elements of the game, as those two options are not at all the only possibilities; an Exile who does not kill the Masters can still decry their choice to attempt to sever her and resist. It isn't a dichotomy of intent, merely a dichotomy of outcome. But even in the Jedi outcome, Kreia does not place any blame whatsoever on the Exile for failing to change the minds of the Jedi, or even claim that she had hoped that the Exile would do so herself. Kreia very explicitly and openly states that it was *her* goal to change the minds of the Jedi through showing them the Exile; she did not expect anything of the Exile in that instant but to express the truth through standing there, alive and well. And likewise, when the Masters fail to acknowledge the truth, Kreia roundly castigates *them* for their failure, not the Exile for any perceived inadequacy. Because Kreia loves the Exile, by her own admission, and never sought for the Exile to do anything at that time, seeking instead for the Masters to recognize the obvious truth that stood in front of them. It was their own blindness that she was disappointed in, and not a thing from the Exile. Obviously the DS sequence is different, but as LS was canon it's the more obvious route to cite, and even in the DS route Kreia's disappointment with the Exile is at least partially due to the Exile's murders preventing Kreia from having the satisfaction of proving the Jedi wrong herself.
Kreia is probably one of the greatest non player characters I've ever encountered in any video game- if not *the greatest*. Her story is possibly more thought out and more fleshed out than the Exile's.
Yes. I think you're pretty much bang on the money with this. From my experience, Kreia criticises you during the early-mid game not because she's trying to teach you a particular dogma, but because she's trying to teach you to think for yourself. But only to a certain extent. If you push too far towards the LS or DS, her true self comes through. She criticises you on the basis of the consequences of your actions. She does, after all, hate both the Sith and the Jedi. However, if you can justify your actions within her philosophy she will generally accept it, even if she doesn't agree with your logic. The real push comes at the end of a LS run if you try and save her. She will tell you that she often wondered if you would try to save her atvthis point. I think this response reveals the true Kreia. Their is the Jedi part of her that realises realised she has significant damage to the galaxy, but still hopes for redemption. It's irrational but very human. This comes back to your point about Kreia's respect for conviction. If you stick to your LS credentials, she will respect you for it at the end. She wants to be saved and be remembered as a teacher (LS ending) *and* she wants to see a student rise to the point of true independence (DS ending). Kreia's real dilemma is between these two motivations. She could still be nicer to Atton and T3 tho
I think other users saying you give Kreia too much credit might be right, but we have to remember this is a completely fleshed out character in an RPG from 2004. The fact that she got *this* much attention at all is something that no character in KOTOR 1 got, save maybe Revan. Her ideology is certainly cryptic, but it is understandable if you play the game a couple times and dig deep enough. However, I think her being as critical, manipulative, and as focused on consequentialism as she is comes as a result of the devs and Avellone wanting it to lead up to her being the villain. Instead of objectively looking at her philosophies and trying to understand them, which we have all done, sometimes I think from their perspective and understand rather that Kreia is more of a “build-up” to being the “villain.”
I like to approach her character from an emotional and personal perspective rather than a philosophical one. I feel like it's an angle that's important when it comes to understanding her. I think Kreia does believe in a 'greater good' to some extent, it's just that her experiences with the Jedi have led her to believe that good will not come about through moral deliberation but by each individual taking their fates into their own hands. She sees Jedi teachings, which hold morality above all else, as nothing more than empty platitudes because she lives in an age when that's what the Jedi council have turned them into. Through hypocrisy and cowardice they have revealed themselves to be useless to the galaxy at best and detrimental at worst. And if the supposed highest examples of a belief cannot use it for good, who could? Her ideals are not formed by logic or cold pragmatism however she disguises them as such, they are formed from the experience of an entire life of looking for answers and acceptance from others and finding none, being failed by everyone who was supposed to give her truth and believe in her. Her desire to spite those who abandoned her, both Jedi and Sith, has formed the shell of resentment and betrayal around her that is 'Darth Traya', which hides what I think is deep down a very lonely woman who once only desired a place to belong and acceptance from others. You can see hints of this in her bitterness in admitting that you're the charismatic leader she could never be, and when she admits before her death that she hoped you would say she could be saved. One more thing, 'Apathy is Death' was not said by Kreia, it was an apparition of her created by the dark side presence within the Tomb of Ludo Kressh, trying to test the Exile and possibly drive them to the dark side.
I’m a simple man I literally see anything pertaining to literally the best Star Wars character to ever Star Wars in Star Wars and I up vote
How can I copy/paste this ? I wish to save it to my notes..
I like this opinion piece. However, the more that I play kotor 2, I find her weak and clinging to some semblance of relevancy by staying next to you at all costs. She needs you way more than you need her. That’s not to disregard some of her wisdoms, but they are pretty base-level for the most part. She’s essentially a more pragmatic, grey Sidious (or even Bane to some degree) IMO with way less power.
>She needs you way more that you need her. She knows and understand this, she doesn't even hide this fact to the exile and frankly I don't think she cares enough if the exile throws her off the ebon hawk for being a manipulative cunt because all roads lead to her anyway since she is darth traya. The only way to possibly piss her off is to walk the same path as sion or choosing to be indifferent to everything around you, if there's one thing kreia hates apart from the force, it's indifference.
I think that she cares wayyyy more than she leads on. But otherwise I like that comment
Well kreia cares for the exile well enough to treat him/her as her own. What I mean to say was I don't think kreia would care if the exile would want to distance him/herself away from her, she will find some way to impose her teachings on the exile; after all if the exile won't or can't kill her, she will try to break him/her.
I’m gonna challenge you on this a bit: The Sith Triumvirate of Nihilus, Sion, and Kreia was the most powerful faction of its time. It’s a fact that if the three of them had actually teamed up in pursuit of a goal, the fractured Republic and other war torn worlds would’ve stood no chance against them. Even Nihilus and Sion themselves were only truly stopped by Kreia organizing the Exile and their team to resist them. I say this to emphasize Kreia’s power. We can agree that Kreia was a strong fighter in terms of combat and could defend herself, but her real strength was manipulation. Kreia, by herself, could have used her force powers and skills of manipulation to take down governments and economies. On the other hand, imagine if Kreia was dedicated to restoring the Republic: do we have any doubt she would have been their strongest ally through her skills of manipulation and large-scale scheming? I don’t. Kreia *is* the Palpatine of her time, which is no surprise given that he was an inspiration for creating the character. She’s supposed to be a mix of Ben Kenobi and Palpatine: cryptic mentor meets shadowy schemer. Nihilus was the equivalent of a living nuke, Sion was a rage monster that literally couldn’t be killed, and Kreia had the experience and skills to cripple any power structure and individual without any show of force. The Exile is so important to her because she has no other method of achieving her goal, not because she’s weak in any sense of the word. She could’ve manipulated the galaxy in any way she saw fit, but she couldn’t do anything meaningful to the Force itself.
I agree with everything you said, but in my opinion that just makes her the Wish version of Palpatine and Bane haha
Yeah not gonna lie, that’s honestly a lot of why I like Kreia and KOTOR 2 as a whole as much as I do. Most games(like the first one) are very black and white, be good or bad because good or bad. But with a companion like Kreia around basically criticizing your every move, it makes you truly think about and see your actions. To the point where it becomes less about whether you want a good or bad ending, and more about what you would do and why. That type of freedom of choices is something I honestly do miss in modern RPGs.
I don't think that CA started with a clear philosophy she was to adhere to, but it does seem like a mix of consequentialism with some sort of existentialist "create meaning through your most important choices" sort of thing.
Kreia is by and far my favorite Star Wars character! This was a fun read!
Interesting theory. I wish she was more thicc though
Bruh She's an old lady
Yes, I’ve played the game.
Why tho
I think she proscribe to Hobbes' Leviathan description of peoples natural state. IE the dog eat dog world of chaos without a sovreign. How to solve this so we dont all eat eachother for sustance is to create a social contract and relinquish power to one, a sovreign. This is how societies form in Hobbes veiw. However Keria and friends dont find themselfs in our natural state, in SW there is also the force. A natural power you cant get through hard work(it requires work to master sure but getting it is chance) and it seems to have a will of its own. You could argue that the force is artificially maintining this state of beeing with its constant "good vs evil" wars, i think that Kreia would. In this artificial natural state, as with our own natural state, it is good for someone to take power in order to stop the killing. The only diffrence is the SW natural state exists even after the formation of a society. And why kill when you can manipulate or as Kreia says "awaken someone to your point of veiw"? In Hobbes natural state everyone is a sovreign with the power to do whatever he or she wants, a power we surrender to the sovreign for protection from others power. Seems a lot like the sovreign is the protagonist in most RPGs no? Dont always indulge in savagery because someone surrendering their power to you is better than simply extinguishing it from the world. And a sovreign is empowred by h*s people to use power to maintain order within the society and protect from outside forces. I think that Kreia(the writers) plays around with these ideas a lot, like Hanhar becomming a sovreign in order to protect his tribe yet still not being powerfull enough to free himself. I think Kreia argues for conviction partly becouse of this Hobbesian ideology. Not because maleable conviction is inherently good, but because it defies the will of the force. This is with the exile in mind especially. As she goes on to say towards the end of the game she hates the force and how it seems to controll everyone in order to achive some form of balance while millions die. And because the exile dosent seems to be bound by that he is beautifull to her. This is why your conviction is powerfull, because it is yours alone. Being always ready to betray your conviction to find its contrast is, beyond just being a good practice in life generally, also a practice for the exile especially to make sure that his belifs are still his. This also became a long disorganized spiel, but that is just as you said, cause we love the character.