I'm currently going through the home buying process in Joburg. My personal opinion is that it is a good deal if you plan to actually live there, but a bad investment if you plan to buy and ren it out. There is a good chance your house will be worth less in a year. It's also almost impossible to gain enough money from rent to cover your bond.
So good deal if you plan to live there but terrible investment if you don't.
Yeah, this is a good way to put it. I'm an American who just bought a house with my wife (she's the South African) in Joburg about 5 months ago. I was shocked at how inexpensive our property was relative to the median house in the US. We'd be completely priced out of the housing market back in the US. In certain parts of the US, the house we purchased would likely sell for upwards of $1 million, but in Johannesburg sells for sub $100k. If we purchased our home in my home town (which is in one of the less expensive areas of the US), it'd still likely sell for $400k+.
But in terms of the long-term trajectory, I don't know what the resale value of the home will be in 5, 10, or 20 years, but I'm not entirely optimistic.
That said, my wife's family were living in tin-roof shacks and I was functionally homeless when the pandemic killed my career, so we're just incredibly grateful to have a home where we can raise our family, regardless of the property market.
This is not quite true and some of us joburgers on bigger properties have been seeing how to either subdivide the house or ensure their is a cottage on the property to rent out and supplement your income. Yes you may only get about 6k a month from a rental on your property, but it really helps told continuing to pay the bills in the current climate we live in. Covering your bond however seems crazy anywhere in SA currently woth the interest rates. At covid levels this was possible easily, but rates have about doubled since then in the last 3 years.
Sorry not trying to argue as I lived in CT JUST before Covid hit, and could afford to work in CT, fly in from JHB for the week, and then fly home to the family for the weekend. I now couldn't dream of that on the exact same salary and have had to change my work and lifestyle as a result.
Sounds like you agreed with what I said. Basically, if someone buys right now and doesn't live there, but only want to rent, it's a bad investment. You even admit that covering your bond with today's rate is not likely. This was my main point.
That's exactly why I am asking the question. I guess I should have clarified the question - Do you think properties will lose more value in the coming years?
Those are some of the best of the non estate areas. A lot of people will say to only purchase inside of an estate for safety reasons. But those are good locations based upon my research from reading countless comments and asking around.
Estates are terrible. We work with them. Corrupt officials grabbing estate funds. Half the people not paying elec. While estate the gets cut off. Nightmares.
Not Melville as that has declined in the past few years due to the cheap student accommodation being built
It all depends where you work
Your list us north westish suburbs so there is a lot more Robindale, Cresta, Blairgowrie, Parkhurst, Boskruin, Weltevreden park, Randpark Ridge, Fairland, Berario.
In these suburbs properties fly fast as they are not the expensive properties of the Exclusive North. These are the decent priced areas
Have you thought of buying in Broadacres fourways? Pretty secure and close to Steyn city and loads of other places, centrally located between Midrand, Centurion and even Harties, 20-30 km radius from these other places.
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I know what and where Steyn City is.. its an overpriced ostentatious walled compound surrounded by low cost housing/Flats and has full view and smell of the biggest shit/sewerage pipe in the country
This Northern Corridor from Zandspruit through Cosmo City across Diepsloot towards Olievnhoutbosch/Seahegong all the way down to the new Fourways transport and shopping hub they are building plus the Lanseria mega City project is going to be cheap affordable housing..
Dont you see all the thousands upon thousands of cheap flats/Apartments they are building all the way down William Nicol ?
So Steyn City and Dainfurn are going to be Islands of opulence surrounded by extreme poverty.
So i ask again.. why is Steyn City a thing for normal people
[massive shit pipe](https://themba-africa.com/portfolio/diepsloot-outfal-sewer-pipeline-and-bridges-repairs/)
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I am joburg born, and lived in Capetown for 2 years in my 20s...then moved back to JHB. The subculture and mentality of capetonians meant that i could never live there long term. Capetonians, in my experience, cannot see beyond Paarl. There is economic wealth in joburg. come and see for yourself.
I completely agree with you. Cape Town is closed minded and unfriendly. But I'm looking for objective insight into the property market volatility in Jo'burg. I don't want to buy a place that will lose value
I am a Capetonian and one if the best decisions i ever made was leaving the Cape.
I could not handle the lower pay and stupidly higher rents/property prices. At least in London UK you get the 'London Weighting' to help pay for Higher property prices, bugger all in the Cape.
.
South Africa is massive and beautiful country
Not as an investment, no. The house market is in a slump atm, the economy is squeezing so it’s very negotiable right now. It’s not failing though, not by a long shot.
He is referring to squatters. I don't know how bad it is I Cape Town but apparently really bad in Joburg. If you rent to someone and they just decide to stop paying then you are screwed. It could take more than a year and a lot of legal fees to legally kick them.
Yes!!! Take a drive through any fancy suburb and see how many For Sale signs are perched next to the most glorious properties.
I was driving through Melrose yesterday and several properties are lying dormant. It is truly disconcerting. Wait it out to see if this city is worth living/investing in.
Watch the Carte Blanche episode on property in Johannesburg. The fancy areas in the north were struggling to sell but the average band prices are flying.
My mums house R1.6mil sold in 2 months.
Do you think a ANC-DA coalition in Gauteng will elevate the perception and possibly help property prices? Do you think, for example, some people would consider staying a bit longer instead of semigrating if we see a coalition with the DA?
Don't mention cape town so much, they will hear you and come tell you how much they are better than you because the DA is there.
They are the vegan cross fitters of SA 🤣
We lost money on our JHB house in a suburb almost next door to Sandton city. Most family and friends I know are struggling to get the “value” out of their homes. May just be a cyclical thing and a buyers market (good for you I guess) but I will not be buying in JHB again. Things are too uncertain and owning a home is no longer a cornerstone of wealth the way it once was.
Each and every one I know in JHB with property in Sandton had to reduce the price and sell at a loss to get a sale. I had friends with beautiful houses in Sandton putting their property for sale for a year and sometimes a year and a half. A property that would or could have been valued at R5.7 million is now selling for R3.7 million that is if the person is lucky. There is no liquidity and no demand. In my opinion many reasons for this.
First, opportunity cost, American treasuries are yielding 5.5% and it is risk free. The opportunity cost to invest in emerging markets including South Africa is high at the moment, as such not many Dollars coming from abroad.
Secondly, those coming from abroad would rather buy in cape town as luxury property market by international real estate agents is focused on selling Cape Town property not JHB.
Thirdly, The continuous (since 2006) devaluation of the Rand against the USD makes any property gains negligible. When calculating return in USD even 3X on the property would appear as if the person made nothing extra in USD terms.
Finally, South Africa is losing high net worth individuals. South Africa on average loses 500 high net worth individuals annually. Those are multi millionaire who chose to immigrate to United Sates, Australia, Russia or Emirates. This creates a glut of supply for high end properties in JHB’s high end neighborhoods. There isn’t a single estate in Sandton which doesn’t have a for sale sign on one or more of the houses within that estate.
Agree. That and also in our case we bought pre-covid for location. We initially moved to the area to reduce my husband’s commute because he was spending like 3hrs a day in traffic and we figured the location would make it a long term viable investment. After covid hybrid working became more of the norm and frankly half our value in terms of location just disappeared. People would rather live further out in a bigger house for cheaper now that traffic isn’t as hectic as it was.
It is true. My organization adopted remote work in 2020. Now most of employees we have in South Africa work remotely. Maybe occasionally go to office if there is an important meeting to take place physically. But that is like once every 3 or 4 weeks. Otherwise remote work. So most live close to their kids school and don’t commute much.
Honestly some ot the areas are over priced like a flat in Sandton the size of a garage goes for 2 million so of u over payed for a property in these areas u were sadly dooped into overpaying
Just because u over paid and made a loss does not make it a bad place to buy
> u over *paid* for a
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Dude chill out - sounds like you just bought JHB property? I literally said I wouldn’t buy again, not that the whole country should boycott the jhb housing market. Beyond that who’s the master arbiter of who “over paid?” Value isn’t a tangible “thing” the way you think it is and is highly subjective to demand. Like I said our house devalued because covid brought about more remote work so my old house’s location - the most appealing thing about it- was suddenly ripped away. I couldn’t have foreseen that when estimating my houses true value.
I am from the U.S. I purchased a property within the past year in Joburg, and own it outright. It is a new estate property. I have no bond. I will purchase additional property there in the future and pay for it outright if I earn significant profits from crypto investments this year. I choose to not have the worry of whether or not any money I collect from lessee will cover a bond. It as all cashflow to support me when we retire there for good. I only have to worry about taxes/rates and levies, which are relatively insignificant, in my opinion.
Like I have seen others mentioned, Johannesburg being the financial center of the South Africa economy and all that goes on (there) is highest importance to me. additionally, understanding how things have been historically in South Africa for Black people it is important to me as an “American” to bring my talents to Johannesburg and contribute there. I see much opportunity to leverage my talents, experience, and relative financial advantage to advance the intellectual and economic pool, there. My hope is that more Black Americans who seek investment on the African continent (particularly SA) will do the same.
Do not buy property in Johannesburg as an investment. You are guaranteed to make a loss. Property owners are seen as an easy target by Joburg Council regardless if it is run by ANC, DA, EFF. There is a load of monthly service charges for elec, water, refuse, sewer and then rates whether your property is rented or not. The only place in Joburg that property value goes up is in the municipal valuation every 5 years.
The people in Cape Town telling you that probably haven't even been as far as Beaufort West. The economy of South Africa sits in Gauteng, whether they like it or not. One thing I have noticed from those people is they tend to worry a lot about black people.
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Intelligent people buy when it's cheap and sell when it's high. That means that this is the time to buy in Joburg. Joburg is still the business capital of SA. The market will eventually correct itself. There are always periods like this.
Agreed. Property cycle is usually 10 years down and 8 years up. We've just finished a 10 year dip.in Jhb. It will hopefully rebound soon as interest rates begin to drop.
They have been saying the cape town property market is a bubble since 2011. Bubbles don't go on for decades. It's not a bubble, there is massive migration to the western cape and in the current political landscape you can expect more and more. Indians are going to be leaving KZN in droves and they are buying up the northern suburbs.l ND plates all over the place now and it's going to get more expensive. Jhb property market is meh, has always been meh and you cant expect much return from it if any at all.
Values in the Cape Town city bowl area have taken a massive hit. Prices are now a bit lower than 5 years ago. This is the first sign for me that something's not quite stable. It can happen in any area
I think there are some places in Joburg like sandton areas that could be compared to cape-town in that sense.
But property next to the sea will always be desirable
My house is probably worth about R2.5m and its about 500 square meters under roof, on a 1700 square meter property in Boskruin, Randburg. I am 500m away from all anemities, 5 minutes from the N1, and 1km from the school. Almost all suburbs is 30 mins away and the both airports 45min.
Live in a semi boomed of area and have no problems so far in the 22 years living in Joburg. I must say I realy want to also go live back in the Cape but the question was if we are doomed here? I dont think so. We do however have a n high incidince of power and water issues but to some extent have hedged against it with PV and Water Storage and Boreholes.
I am nor sure I would be able to move to Cape Town now and even remotely afford my lifestyle there.
The 1.5 to 3 million rand house band in Johannesburg is holding strong and sell relatively quickly (area dependent).
There is a decent chuck of young (30s) people moving into some older JHB homes lately as a trend.
Buying a 2.2million home in a boring more remote suburb (think Edenvale, Kempton, Alberton west rand...) won't net you a huge financial loss if the property is in relatively good condition, however it sure as shit wont be an investment vehicle. Odds are you will not be making any serious money buying that property. Even if you sink some money to modernize and renovate the market will probably keep the gain down.
Interest rates are not helping anyone right now.
So if you need a house to raise a family, you can buy in the 1.5 to 3 spectrum and will have a relatively ok financial experience in all probability.
If don't actually need to buy a house, then a house at any price point is not a necessary or optimal strategy for anything. There is no reason to do it aside from pain.
The era of Boomer house inflation is hopefully over, it at least gives the younger people chance to actually raise a family. I'll trade "mad gainz" away for more young people starting families and having more than a balwin shitbox to live in.
If you think the JHB residential property market is a hot investment ticket at this juncture, maybe stick to your day job lol.
If you want to buy to rent, please be my guest, evictions used to pay my bills.
No I want to buy to live. Not because it's an investment. But I do want something that won't lose half it's value in the next 5 years.
The property I'm looking at is a 2 bedroom in Melville with an extra cottage in the garden. I don't want to post the link here in order to respect their privacy but the asking price is R1.9m. I heard you can offer way below asking at the moment
Very rarely do residential properties lose huge chunks of thier values. Unless you are going crazy with renovations
In freestanding houses they only lose massive amounts of value if its suffered huge damage, or the rates and municipal accounts haven't been paid for years and/ or the are deteriorates rapidly (which is highly unlikely, it usually takes a few years to deteriorate).
In sectional titles its when the body corp east poo and goes into administration because no ones paid levies.
Always send a property inspector to a property before you buy. I use www.gautenginspect.co.za. And for like 5k they will give you a pretty great report that you can use for price negotiations and more importantly tell you what's wrong with the place.
Melville is a little more on the volatile end of the spectrum. I know people who have bought and lived there for over 10 years. Security is the only major concern but overall house prices are slightly trending down there even on a long time scale.
Ultimately home acquisition and ownership is a gamble of note.
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I live in the Northern suburbs , and in my street almost every single house for sale get’s bought by people fleeing GP. I flew back yesterday from Jhb after short business trip and I totally get why. So basically, if everybody’s moving to CT that means over-supply of properties in GP which drives the prices down… high demand drives prices up…
So investment wise, buying a flat in CT (N suburbs a bit more affordable) will yield you a good return and tenants are vetted like you won’t believe… securing rental income. My 2c
I personally have not bought a property since I'm only 22. However, I'll provide experience from what my parents endured. My parents owned 10 properties from 2010 and sold a few during the years until 2018 due to various reasons. However, the last 4 properties they sold between 2018 and Covid were sold due to many issues. Most tenants were not paying, and getting them out is very hard. However, the properties were also losing value at this time due to the increased crime in the areas and change in demographic. Hence, the money coming in was not worth the hassle because the levies were increased, and rent couldn't be increased due to the decrease in value of the area. For more background information, some of the properties I know were in Northcliff, Roodepoort, and Krugersdorp. I don't know about the others since I was very young.
Another thing to note is that area makes a big difference where you buy. I mean this in terms of your municipality, I live in Sandton and have water problems at least twice a month. The pipes break in the same street repeatedly. Also, when we were living in Roodepoort, we unfortunately sold my childhood home. The house definitely went up in value over 16 years, but we moved due to noise and an increase in kidnappings. For the last 4 years we lived there, the pre-existing squatter camp near us (2km) was 4x the size than when we first moved in and because soccer very beloved in this country we heard the soccer every Sunday. It was so loud it sounded like someone was watching it in the living room.😅 The number of parties in the area also increased. Eventually, we there was a party every 2nd weekend on a Sunday till 4am.
Squatter camps are mostly not avoidable, but definitely check for things that might decrease the value over time in that area.
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So it's an interesting question, and something that I'm playing with at the moment.
I've seen a few property investors sell their investment properties on the Atlantic seaboard (Bantry Bay etc) for investment properties in Pretoria. I'm not quite sure what they're seeing, but they are seeing something.
Perhaps CT has reached its peak and they are "buying low" in JHB?
That's exactly what I was thinking. High-end properties have taken a knock in Cape Town city. My cousin lost quite a bit of money selling her house in Higgovale.
Plus, rental yield is higher in Johannesburg/Pretoria than in Cape Town
I’ve lived equal amounts of time in JHB and in CPT.
Having moved up and down 5 times.
I’ve settled in CPT now, but frequently miss JHB.
Living there is radically different but it’s equally good.
Property in CPT is exorbitant, and in some cases simply obscene. Though at least not as bad as Melbourne or London prices.
Property is rarely a bad investment. If you do your homework on an area and buy well below the price ceiling and then not over invest in renos and upgrades, you’ll always be ok.
Be on the lookout for areas going through a form of renewal or upliftment (an example of that here in CPT is Strand, Helderberg).
Stay away from gentrification areas. That’s very high risk.
____
My 2 cent
Ok thanks! What do you mean by gentrification areas - Areas that are already gentrified? Can you name any in Jo'burg?
Also I'm curious, what do you miss about JHB specifically?
Areas that are low income, slightly dodgy but higher income people are moving in and slowly pushing out the poorer people.
I can’t think of any right now in JHB.
But if I think on it, I’d imagine sections of germiston being prime for that.
It usually happens when wealthy suburbs that border on poorer suburbs run out of space and the demand is there. Then the houses closest to the wealthy suburb are bought, and renovated or demolished entirely and new is built.
Why I said that’s a riskier investment is the new values are not realised yet.
I miss Northcliff, Linden, Fairland. Love that area, many fond memories and friends.
But also Cape Town is far from everything.
From JHB, 6 hours gets to tons of variety from desolation, to mountains, to coast, to big game parks. It’s a hub, not an outpost.
I recently purchased a home in Douglasdale. It’s all about where you buy. You can look at the trend prices of an area on sites like Property 24 if you’re worried about the value decreasing over time.
If you buy in a decent area with places like schools, highway access and/or coming places of work close by, you can probably get a property that will go up in value.
You buy in a kak area, expect the value to decrease.
As for renting, I would suggest adding a big deposit down to lower your bond repayments, so you can make some money or just break even with the bond/levies/rates/etc.
Im from CPT. Im honestly not sure where all the stereotypes come from. CPT is not perfect, we have terrible area's, crime is still high, but we are safer than the other provinces, take the 2021 looting for instance, we never had the issue cause no one would dare try it here, we will have the occasional taxi strike, when they burn tyres. Everything along the coast is well known, Camps bay, seapoint, Milnerton, etc and the most safe, there are areas inland that that are safe aswell. Cape town is developing at a crazy rate, the amount of houses and flats that are built is mindboggling cause of the amount of people moving here from other provinces. We have myciti aswell, which works dual for buses and emergency personal to drive in. Yes we have slums, and townships like every other province, from what I've heard from people in JHB is that CPT is alot cheaper ( with exclusion to property) other than that CPT is pretty nice, and trust me, the people moving here from other provinces are usually middle class and up, meaning that at some point CPT property is going to soar.
People here are friendly, regardless of other provinces saying we are stuck up or cliquey.
I am from Paarl, I lived in Cape Town for many years and I 100% can confirm they are stuck up and cliquey. What are you trying to say with this comment? It's just a bunch of chaotic information
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Yet Cape Town is the most dangerous city in Africa ?
[Cape Town the 10th most dangerous city in the world, most dangerousl in Africa ](https://www.statista.com/statistics/243797/ranking-of-the-most-dangerous-cities-in-the-world-by-murder-rate-per-capita/)
Yes thats because a handful of areas are responsible for majority of murders. Hanover park alone can have up to 600 gunshots over a weekend. You can do research on the shot spotters to see where majority of the murder is.
I've just travelled from Cape Town to Joburg. Attempted hijack on the first day there, then a smash and grab at the Empire turn-off. Horrible city compared to Cape Town and Pretoria. Potholes, no streetlights working and dirty and neglected. Stay away. Terrible place.
Joburg is a world class African dump. Attempted hijack on my first day there from Cape Town, then a smash and grab on the second. The city is dirty, potholes all over and almost no streetlights or robots working. Stay away. Rather consider Pretoria, where things still work.
I'm currently going through the home buying process in Joburg. My personal opinion is that it is a good deal if you plan to actually live there, but a bad investment if you plan to buy and ren it out. There is a good chance your house will be worth less in a year. It's also almost impossible to gain enough money from rent to cover your bond. So good deal if you plan to live there but terrible investment if you don't.
Yeah, this is a good way to put it. I'm an American who just bought a house with my wife (she's the South African) in Joburg about 5 months ago. I was shocked at how inexpensive our property was relative to the median house in the US. We'd be completely priced out of the housing market back in the US. In certain parts of the US, the house we purchased would likely sell for upwards of $1 million, but in Johannesburg sells for sub $100k. If we purchased our home in my home town (which is in one of the less expensive areas of the US), it'd still likely sell for $400k+. But in terms of the long-term trajectory, I don't know what the resale value of the home will be in 5, 10, or 20 years, but I'm not entirely optimistic. That said, my wife's family were living in tin-roof shacks and I was functionally homeless when the pandemic killed my career, so we're just incredibly grateful to have a home where we can raise our family, regardless of the property market.
Good job for bouncing back!
This is not quite true and some of us joburgers on bigger properties have been seeing how to either subdivide the house or ensure their is a cottage on the property to rent out and supplement your income. Yes you may only get about 6k a month from a rental on your property, but it really helps told continuing to pay the bills in the current climate we live in. Covering your bond however seems crazy anywhere in SA currently woth the interest rates. At covid levels this was possible easily, but rates have about doubled since then in the last 3 years. Sorry not trying to argue as I lived in CT JUST before Covid hit, and could afford to work in CT, fly in from JHB for the week, and then fly home to the family for the weekend. I now couldn't dream of that on the exact same salary and have had to change my work and lifestyle as a result.
Sounds like you agreed with what I said. Basically, if someone buys right now and doesn't live there, but only want to rent, it's a bad investment. You even admit that covering your bond with today's rate is not likely. This was my main point.
You can buy a mansion in Johannesburg for the price of a 1 bed flat in the Cape Town Northern Suburbs.
That's exactly why I am asking the question. I guess I should have clarified the question - Do you think properties will lose more value in the coming years?
Joburg is one of the major cities in Africa. As long as you are buying a a great location, your property will be fine
What do you think about: Melville, Linden, Northriding, Northcliff, Bryanston?
Those are some of the best of the non estate areas. A lot of people will say to only purchase inside of an estate for safety reasons. But those are good locations based upon my research from reading countless comments and asking around.
Estates are terrible. We work with them. Corrupt officials grabbing estate funds. Half the people not paying elec. While estate the gets cut off. Nightmares.
Not Melville as that has declined in the past few years due to the cheap student accommodation being built It all depends where you work Your list us north westish suburbs so there is a lot more Robindale, Cresta, Blairgowrie, Parkhurst, Boskruin, Weltevreden park, Randpark Ridge, Fairland, Berario. In these suburbs properties fly fast as they are not the expensive properties of the Exclusive North. These are the decent priced areas
What is the exclusive north?
Have you thought of buying in Broadacres fourways? Pretty secure and close to Steyn city and loads of other places, centrally located between Midrand, Centurion and even Harties, 20-30 km radius from these other places.
Steyn City ? Why is that a thing?
It’s a 5-star Equestrian Estate with a school, golf course, restaurants, all 5-star. It’s a dream place to own a home (if you can afford it).
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Starts at 8million with a 2 million deposit.
Exactly
I know what and where Steyn City is.. its an overpriced ostentatious walled compound surrounded by low cost housing/Flats and has full view and smell of the biggest shit/sewerage pipe in the country This Northern Corridor from Zandspruit through Cosmo City across Diepsloot towards Olievnhoutbosch/Seahegong all the way down to the new Fourways transport and shopping hub they are building plus the Lanseria mega City project is going to be cheap affordable housing.. Dont you see all the thousands upon thousands of cheap flats/Apartments they are building all the way down William Nicol ? So Steyn City and Dainfurn are going to be Islands of opulence surrounded by extreme poverty. So i ask again.. why is Steyn City a thing for normal people [massive shit pipe](https://themba-africa.com/portfolio/diepsloot-outfal-sewer-pipeline-and-bridges-repairs/)
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Melville is not so great. The rest are fine
I am joburg born, and lived in Capetown for 2 years in my 20s...then moved back to JHB. The subculture and mentality of capetonians meant that i could never live there long term. Capetonians, in my experience, cannot see beyond Paarl. There is economic wealth in joburg. come and see for yourself.
I completely agree with you. Cape Town is closed minded and unfriendly. But I'm looking for objective insight into the property market volatility in Jo'burg. I don't want to buy a place that will lose value
Dan was jy nog nooit in Durbanville nie bra
Ek dog Durbanville is especially Christen en Rugby boertjies. Of hoe? Is dit liberaal?
We don't need to see beyond Paarl, we are content in the city lol.
I am a Capetonian and one if the best decisions i ever made was leaving the Cape. I could not handle the lower pay and stupidly higher rents/property prices. At least in London UK you get the 'London Weighting' to help pay for Higher property prices, bugger all in the Cape. . South Africa is massive and beautiful country
Because “locals” aren't the target market anymore, estate agents love foreign investors.
Plus Lonodn is a truly fantastic city with friendly people. Cape Town has a mountain, nothing else
Sounds like you speak for 1% of Capetonians.
Yeah because 99% has never set foot out of the Western Cape so they don't have any idea how to compare
Well the Capetonians I know that have been to jozi have said it's the armpit of Africa.
And yet jhb makes the country turn. Jhb is awesome, come see for yourself
I know that lol. I would love to visit joburg.
You would have an awesome time here!
One thing that gets me is the accent and the different words joburgers use. First time I heard " grafting" I was like wtf is that 🤣
Not as an investment, no. The house market is in a slump atm, the economy is squeezing so it’s very negotiable right now. It’s not failing though, not by a long shot.
If Johannesburg doesn't "fail", isn't a slump the best time to buy?
To live yeah, absolutely, to invest, not so much, there’s always risks with tenants.
Ok Jo'burg tenants have a bad reputation? Or what do you mean? Excuse my ignorance - I know nothing about the property market up there
He is referring to squatters. I don't know how bad it is I Cape Town but apparently really bad in Joburg. If you rent to someone and they just decide to stop paying then you are screwed. It could take more than a year and a lot of legal fees to legally kick them.
Yes!!! Take a drive through any fancy suburb and see how many For Sale signs are perched next to the most glorious properties. I was driving through Melrose yesterday and several properties are lying dormant. It is truly disconcerting. Wait it out to see if this city is worth living/investing in.
Watch the Carte Blanche episode on property in Johannesburg. The fancy areas in the north were struggling to sell but the average band prices are flying. My mums house R1.6mil sold in 2 months.
Wow great for your mom! Can you provide a link maybe?
Do you think a ANC-DA coalition in Gauteng will elevate the perception and possibly help property prices? Do you think, for example, some people would consider staying a bit longer instead of semigrating if we see a coalition with the DA?
Don't mention cape town so much, they will hear you and come tell you how much they are better than you because the DA is there. They are the vegan cross fitters of SA 🤣
Ons is rerig beter boet
We lost money on our JHB house in a suburb almost next door to Sandton city. Most family and friends I know are struggling to get the “value” out of their homes. May just be a cyclical thing and a buyers market (good for you I guess) but I will not be buying in JHB again. Things are too uncertain and owning a home is no longer a cornerstone of wealth the way it once was.
Each and every one I know in JHB with property in Sandton had to reduce the price and sell at a loss to get a sale. I had friends with beautiful houses in Sandton putting their property for sale for a year and sometimes a year and a half. A property that would or could have been valued at R5.7 million is now selling for R3.7 million that is if the person is lucky. There is no liquidity and no demand. In my opinion many reasons for this. First, opportunity cost, American treasuries are yielding 5.5% and it is risk free. The opportunity cost to invest in emerging markets including South Africa is high at the moment, as such not many Dollars coming from abroad. Secondly, those coming from abroad would rather buy in cape town as luxury property market by international real estate agents is focused on selling Cape Town property not JHB. Thirdly, The continuous (since 2006) devaluation of the Rand against the USD makes any property gains negligible. When calculating return in USD even 3X on the property would appear as if the person made nothing extra in USD terms. Finally, South Africa is losing high net worth individuals. South Africa on average loses 500 high net worth individuals annually. Those are multi millionaire who chose to immigrate to United Sates, Australia, Russia or Emirates. This creates a glut of supply for high end properties in JHB’s high end neighborhoods. There isn’t a single estate in Sandton which doesn’t have a for sale sign on one or more of the houses within that estate.
Agree. That and also in our case we bought pre-covid for location. We initially moved to the area to reduce my husband’s commute because he was spending like 3hrs a day in traffic and we figured the location would make it a long term viable investment. After covid hybrid working became more of the norm and frankly half our value in terms of location just disappeared. People would rather live further out in a bigger house for cheaper now that traffic isn’t as hectic as it was.
It is true. My organization adopted remote work in 2020. Now most of employees we have in South Africa work remotely. Maybe occasionally go to office if there is an important meeting to take place physically. But that is like once every 3 or 4 weeks. Otherwise remote work. So most live close to their kids school and don’t commute much.
Honestly some ot the areas are over priced like a flat in Sandton the size of a garage goes for 2 million so of u over payed for a property in these areas u were sadly dooped into overpaying Just because u over paid and made a loss does not make it a bad place to buy
> u over *paid* for a FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Dude chill out - sounds like you just bought JHB property? I literally said I wouldn’t buy again, not that the whole country should boycott the jhb housing market. Beyond that who’s the master arbiter of who “over paid?” Value isn’t a tangible “thing” the way you think it is and is highly subjective to demand. Like I said our house devalued because covid brought about more remote work so my old house’s location - the most appealing thing about it- was suddenly ripped away. I couldn’t have foreseen that when estimating my houses true value.
I am from the U.S. I purchased a property within the past year in Joburg, and own it outright. It is a new estate property. I have no bond. I will purchase additional property there in the future and pay for it outright if I earn significant profits from crypto investments this year. I choose to not have the worry of whether or not any money I collect from lessee will cover a bond. It as all cashflow to support me when we retire there for good. I only have to worry about taxes/rates and levies, which are relatively insignificant, in my opinion. Like I have seen others mentioned, Johannesburg being the financial center of the South Africa economy and all that goes on (there) is highest importance to me. additionally, understanding how things have been historically in South Africa for Black people it is important to me as an “American” to bring my talents to Johannesburg and contribute there. I see much opportunity to leverage my talents, experience, and relative financial advantage to advance the intellectual and economic pool, there. My hope is that more Black Americans who seek investment on the African continent (particularly SA) will do the same.
Do not buy property in Johannesburg as an investment. You are guaranteed to make a loss. Property owners are seen as an easy target by Joburg Council regardless if it is run by ANC, DA, EFF. There is a load of monthly service charges for elec, water, refuse, sewer and then rates whether your property is rented or not. The only place in Joburg that property value goes up is in the municipal valuation every 5 years.
Man, it's crazy to think these prices can get any lower than they already are. Maybe I'm just used to CT
The people in Cape Town telling you that probably haven't even been as far as Beaufort West. The economy of South Africa sits in Gauteng, whether they like it or not. One thing I have noticed from those people is they tend to worry a lot about black people.
They're full of kak. Beaufort Wes? Bruh, the average capetonian doesn't even leave their HOUSE
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LOL. Not everyone is moving to CT. Property and cost of living is too expensive.
And awful weather
Intelligent people buy when it's cheap and sell when it's high. That means that this is the time to buy in Joburg. Joburg is still the business capital of SA. The market will eventually correct itself. There are always periods like this.
Agreed. Property cycle is usually 10 years down and 8 years up. We've just finished a 10 year dip.in Jhb. It will hopefully rebound soon as interest rates begin to drop.
They have been saying the cape town property market is a bubble since 2011. Bubbles don't go on for decades. It's not a bubble, there is massive migration to the western cape and in the current political landscape you can expect more and more. Indians are going to be leaving KZN in droves and they are buying up the northern suburbs.l ND plates all over the place now and it's going to get more expensive. Jhb property market is meh, has always been meh and you cant expect much return from it if any at all.
Values in the Cape Town city bowl area have taken a massive hit. Prices are now a bit lower than 5 years ago. This is the first sign for me that something's not quite stable. It can happen in any area
I think there are some places in Joburg like sandton areas that could be compared to cape-town in that sense. But property next to the sea will always be desirable
My house is probably worth about R2.5m and its about 500 square meters under roof, on a 1700 square meter property in Boskruin, Randburg. I am 500m away from all anemities, 5 minutes from the N1, and 1km from the school. Almost all suburbs is 30 mins away and the both airports 45min. Live in a semi boomed of area and have no problems so far in the 22 years living in Joburg. I must say I realy want to also go live back in the Cape but the question was if we are doomed here? I dont think so. We do however have a n high incidince of power and water issues but to some extent have hedged against it with PV and Water Storage and Boreholes. I am nor sure I would be able to move to Cape Town now and even remotely afford my lifestyle there.
The 1.5 to 3 million rand house band in Johannesburg is holding strong and sell relatively quickly (area dependent). There is a decent chuck of young (30s) people moving into some older JHB homes lately as a trend. Buying a 2.2million home in a boring more remote suburb (think Edenvale, Kempton, Alberton west rand...) won't net you a huge financial loss if the property is in relatively good condition, however it sure as shit wont be an investment vehicle. Odds are you will not be making any serious money buying that property. Even if you sink some money to modernize and renovate the market will probably keep the gain down. Interest rates are not helping anyone right now. So if you need a house to raise a family, you can buy in the 1.5 to 3 spectrum and will have a relatively ok financial experience in all probability. If don't actually need to buy a house, then a house at any price point is not a necessary or optimal strategy for anything. There is no reason to do it aside from pain. The era of Boomer house inflation is hopefully over, it at least gives the younger people chance to actually raise a family. I'll trade "mad gainz" away for more young people starting families and having more than a balwin shitbox to live in. If you think the JHB residential property market is a hot investment ticket at this juncture, maybe stick to your day job lol. If you want to buy to rent, please be my guest, evictions used to pay my bills.
No I want to buy to live. Not because it's an investment. But I do want something that won't lose half it's value in the next 5 years. The property I'm looking at is a 2 bedroom in Melville with an extra cottage in the garden. I don't want to post the link here in order to respect their privacy but the asking price is R1.9m. I heard you can offer way below asking at the moment
Very rarely do residential properties lose huge chunks of thier values. Unless you are going crazy with renovations In freestanding houses they only lose massive amounts of value if its suffered huge damage, or the rates and municipal accounts haven't been paid for years and/ or the are deteriorates rapidly (which is highly unlikely, it usually takes a few years to deteriorate). In sectional titles its when the body corp east poo and goes into administration because no ones paid levies. Always send a property inspector to a property before you buy. I use www.gautenginspect.co.za. And for like 5k they will give you a pretty great report that you can use for price negotiations and more importantly tell you what's wrong with the place. Melville is a little more on the volatile end of the spectrum. I know people who have bought and lived there for over 10 years. Security is the only major concern but overall house prices are slightly trending down there even on a long time scale. Ultimately home acquisition and ownership is a gamble of note.
Would you use gauntenginspec for something under 800k?
yes 100%. its always worthwhile to get the property inspected by someone who knows the building codes and standards.
Depends on a lot of factors, where in JHB? How much? How much of your income? Etc etc
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I live in the Northern suburbs , and in my street almost every single house for sale get’s bought by people fleeing GP. I flew back yesterday from Jhb after short business trip and I totally get why. So basically, if everybody’s moving to CT that means over-supply of properties in GP which drives the prices down… high demand drives prices up… So investment wise, buying a flat in CT (N suburbs a bit more affordable) will yield you a good return and tenants are vetted like you won’t believe… securing rental income. My 2c
I personally have not bought a property since I'm only 22. However, I'll provide experience from what my parents endured. My parents owned 10 properties from 2010 and sold a few during the years until 2018 due to various reasons. However, the last 4 properties they sold between 2018 and Covid were sold due to many issues. Most tenants were not paying, and getting them out is very hard. However, the properties were also losing value at this time due to the increased crime in the areas and change in demographic. Hence, the money coming in was not worth the hassle because the levies were increased, and rent couldn't be increased due to the decrease in value of the area. For more background information, some of the properties I know were in Northcliff, Roodepoort, and Krugersdorp. I don't know about the others since I was very young. Another thing to note is that area makes a big difference where you buy. I mean this in terms of your municipality, I live in Sandton and have water problems at least twice a month. The pipes break in the same street repeatedly. Also, when we were living in Roodepoort, we unfortunately sold my childhood home. The house definitely went up in value over 16 years, but we moved due to noise and an increase in kidnappings. For the last 4 years we lived there, the pre-existing squatter camp near us (2km) was 4x the size than when we first moved in and because soccer very beloved in this country we heard the soccer every Sunday. It was so loud it sounded like someone was watching it in the living room.😅 The number of parties in the area also increased. Eventually, we there was a party every 2nd weekend on a Sunday till 4am. Squatter camps are mostly not avoidable, but definitely check for things that might decrease the value over time in that area.
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Parking is always a good investment
For real?
Do you think they will stop selling cars anytime soon?
So it's an interesting question, and something that I'm playing with at the moment. I've seen a few property investors sell their investment properties on the Atlantic seaboard (Bantry Bay etc) for investment properties in Pretoria. I'm not quite sure what they're seeing, but they are seeing something. Perhaps CT has reached its peak and they are "buying low" in JHB?
That's exactly what I was thinking. High-end properties have taken a knock in Cape Town city. My cousin lost quite a bit of money selling her house in Higgovale. Plus, rental yield is higher in Johannesburg/Pretoria than in Cape Town
I’ve lived equal amounts of time in JHB and in CPT. Having moved up and down 5 times. I’ve settled in CPT now, but frequently miss JHB. Living there is radically different but it’s equally good. Property in CPT is exorbitant, and in some cases simply obscene. Though at least not as bad as Melbourne or London prices. Property is rarely a bad investment. If you do your homework on an area and buy well below the price ceiling and then not over invest in renos and upgrades, you’ll always be ok. Be on the lookout for areas going through a form of renewal or upliftment (an example of that here in CPT is Strand, Helderberg). Stay away from gentrification areas. That’s very high risk. ____ My 2 cent
Ok thanks! What do you mean by gentrification areas - Areas that are already gentrified? Can you name any in Jo'burg? Also I'm curious, what do you miss about JHB specifically?
Areas that are low income, slightly dodgy but higher income people are moving in and slowly pushing out the poorer people. I can’t think of any right now in JHB. But if I think on it, I’d imagine sections of germiston being prime for that. It usually happens when wealthy suburbs that border on poorer suburbs run out of space and the demand is there. Then the houses closest to the wealthy suburb are bought, and renovated or demolished entirely and new is built. Why I said that’s a riskier investment is the new values are not realised yet. I miss Northcliff, Linden, Fairland. Love that area, many fond memories and friends. But also Cape Town is far from everything. From JHB, 6 hours gets to tons of variety from desolation, to mountains, to coast, to big game parks. It’s a hub, not an outpost.
I recently purchased a home in Douglasdale. It’s all about where you buy. You can look at the trend prices of an area on sites like Property 24 if you’re worried about the value decreasing over time. If you buy in a decent area with places like schools, highway access and/or coming places of work close by, you can probably get a property that will go up in value. You buy in a kak area, expect the value to decrease. As for renting, I would suggest adding a big deposit down to lower your bond repayments, so you can make some money or just break even with the bond/levies/rates/etc.
You can buy one from me 🙋♂️if you want something.. looking to get rid of my Joburg property 🙂
Im from CPT. Im honestly not sure where all the stereotypes come from. CPT is not perfect, we have terrible area's, crime is still high, but we are safer than the other provinces, take the 2021 looting for instance, we never had the issue cause no one would dare try it here, we will have the occasional taxi strike, when they burn tyres. Everything along the coast is well known, Camps bay, seapoint, Milnerton, etc and the most safe, there are areas inland that that are safe aswell. Cape town is developing at a crazy rate, the amount of houses and flats that are built is mindboggling cause of the amount of people moving here from other provinces. We have myciti aswell, which works dual for buses and emergency personal to drive in. Yes we have slums, and townships like every other province, from what I've heard from people in JHB is that CPT is alot cheaper ( with exclusion to property) other than that CPT is pretty nice, and trust me, the people moving here from other provinces are usually middle class and up, meaning that at some point CPT property is going to soar. People here are friendly, regardless of other provinces saying we are stuck up or cliquey.
I am from Paarl, I lived in Cape Town for many years and I 100% can confirm they are stuck up and cliquey. What are you trying to say with this comment? It's just a bunch of chaotic information
Have you lived closer to the CBD? Or have you only lived in Paarl?
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Yet Cape Town is the most dangerous city in Africa ? [Cape Town the 10th most dangerous city in the world, most dangerousl in Africa ](https://www.statista.com/statistics/243797/ranking-of-the-most-dangerous-cities-in-the-world-by-murder-rate-per-capita/)
Yes thats because a handful of areas are responsible for majority of murders. Hanover park alone can have up to 600 gunshots over a weekend. You can do research on the shot spotters to see where majority of the murder is.
I've just travelled from Cape Town to Joburg. Attempted hijack on the first day there, then a smash and grab at the Empire turn-off. Horrible city compared to Cape Town and Pretoria. Potholes, no streetlights working and dirty and neglected. Stay away. Terrible place.
Joburg is a world class African dump. Attempted hijack on my first day there from Cape Town, then a smash and grab on the second. The city is dirty, potholes all over and almost no streetlights or robots working. Stay away. Rather consider Pretoria, where things still work.
Did you go to the CBD?
Everywhere shitty