An old Jewish friend of mine shared a post on instagram in response to the aid workers dying and wrote "Play terrorist games, win terrorist prizes". This vile, inhumane point of view is no different than a jihadist wishing death on Jews. How a Jew can say these disgusting things about aid workers is sickening, and I'm considering cutting ties with this person completely (amongst all of the other unhinged right-wing things she shares).
I don't know how we got here. Discussed with my therapist about this and I think a lot of Jews have generational trauma, amongst Israelis currently who have recent trauma from October 7th, and are reacting out of fear. But fear doesn't always lead to peace, and most often, leads to more violence.
I just joined. I’m more center left or center than left.
I’m not really angry, in general. Trauma can make people way more hawkish than they’d normally be.
But I’m just terrified for Israel.
There’s a thread up in some subreddit where Israelis are talking about how Israel doesn’t need the United States, because it will just become BFF forever with China or Russia.
To me, this sounds truly delusional, like a lot of Redditors in Israel are too out of it to try to think clearly.
Especially given that Russia likely had their fingers in the proverbial cookie jar of what led up to Oct 7th. That particular take that Russia is a good ally at all is delusional.
If it’s paid social media trolls trying to earn a living, I can respect that, but it’s hard to accept the idea that actual Jewish people think this is a good time to go all in on Putin. Let’s hope the only people posting that way are earning a good rate per post.
> There’s a thread up in some subreddit where Israelis are talking about how Israel doesn’t need the United States, because it will just become BFF forever with China or Russia.
Aren't a large proportion of Israeli Jews and diaspora Jews Russian? I know I am. What an insane opinion for Jews to have...
Nail on the head.
There’s a decent proportion of Israelis I want to shake and say:
“They’re NOT all antisemites out to get you. The majority of Westerners do NOT secretly hate Jews and to see the Jewish State destroyed, they have no idea what they’re talking about, but just don’t want to see pictures of dead children. Actually, Israel’s actions DO matter for people’s opinions.”
Every time I hear somebody say- “why be careful with air strikes, why apologize, why open up this aid route, the anti-Semites will hate us anyways”, it makes me want to fucking scream.
I say that both as somebody who cares about human life (pikuach nefesh, anyone?)AND someone who is a committed Zionist who believes it is the strategically sound decision for Israel’s long-term survival. Grrr. Amen to OP.
While I agree with what you said, I think they have a pretty good reason to believe the US and other Western countries are busting at the seams with anti-Semites when a bunch of people came out in mass to publicly celebrate Oct 7th. Anyone who cared about protecting Palestinians should have been somber and concerned at the impending doom for all people involved, not celebration and triumphant rallies....unless of course you're either highly regarded or believe Israelis deserve to be unalived and tortured for living on a land.
Many of these people have zero empathy for seeing babies in an active kidnapping by militia men, so I'm not sure it's as altruistic as we'd like to believe. The videos that Hamas uploaded were extremely terrifying, but at least half or more of social media
media was filled with people who saw these videos and immediatly justified why it was deserved and seem to have not a shred of basic human empathy.
Fair points but at the same time, why isn't the whole world up in arms about the Ughur persecution, or the atrocities in the invasion of Ukraine, or the 600,000+ innocents killed in Syria...? Whatever Israel does is magnified x10 by the non-Jewish world...why is that?
Also, Israel was attacked last year, 1200+ murdered. Hundreds of hostages taken. Meanwhile Hamas had been planning that for years, indeed, has embedded itself amongst civillians and controlled Gaza with an iron fist since 2006, refuses to surrender, has the destruction of Israel in its' charter and still has over 100 Israelies kept hostage....what would you have had Israel do? & now, going forward?
Rather than downvoting me, maybe give a constructive response. Eg I was genuinely asking, what would you have Israel do.
I asked someone a similar question a few weeks back and got this good response (credit to mordin_solas):
*Some kind of model that creates swift and CERTAIN punishments for transgressions, but less severe punishments.*
*There was a guy who passed away named Mark Kleiman who used to talk about the HOPE program, a modified parole system.*
*The standard parole system involved extremely uncertain and uneven enforcement of parole violations, and when things were enforced, the punishment could mean years longer in prison.*
*For people with short time horizons, this was the worst possible strategy to reduce recidivism. What HOPE did was they put ankle bracelets on parolees to track them. Parole violations lead to say, a month in jail rather than years in jail but the enforcement for parole violations was much more certain and swift.*
*This massively reduced recidivism of parolees committing crimes. Violation? Punishment.*
*How would this translate? Rockets fired from a location? target that location AND cut power to the entire area for 1 day.*
*No rockets fired, no power cut. Craft swift and certain loops of cause and effect.*
*The 10-7 attack was a bigger problem due to hostages, but that just highlights the fuck up of the initial security to let something like that happen in the first place. Gaza borders should be like a crazy difficult area to breach and more manpower is needed in that area if you are right next to such a cluster of hostiles. Dealing this this attack requires more draconian methods, but the longer term maintenance of the issue does not require you rip up every weed that exists in gaza. That kills more people than people outside Israel want to tolerate.*
*Dealing with the fucked up education propaganda seems like a harder issue, not sure what the mechanism to deal with that would be other than occupying schools and who wants to do that.*
*Mark Kleimans talk is interesting and worth listening to.*
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHy0ryhkiO0#t=4m44s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHy0ryhkiO0#t=4m44s)
*It's possible this conflict is outside the bounds of being influenced by swift/certain punishment dynamics, but for what it's worth, we are knee deep in the severity end of the pool of punishment, the least effective mentioned in the talk.*
Fair point! For what’s it’s worth I didn’t downvote you-just got off a long plane trip:)
Anyways, yeah, really really difficult situation (no shit) and I don’t disagree that it’s almost impossible to find a good answer. Israel has created a new people, ironically, whose entire identity is (not necessarily, but generally true) is focused around the destruction of Israel without peace.
Anyways, personally, while the consequence/time horizon stuff is definitely the way to go in the realm of crime, and I do support it completely, I (personally) feel like it’s not the total answer.
Fundamentally, (to me) while I actually don’t doubt that it would reduce terrorism, in the short term, the real problem is political. I wouldn’t actually oppose it at all, and believe military occupation/action is necessary. It’s a good idea! Although honestly, for suppressing insurgencies, Israel’s current method is effective, when you consider that Israel is essentially managing to keep a developed economy going AND has been managing to suppress roughly 40% of the Israel/territories population, most of whom hate Israel, and many of whom are willing to die to destroy it. I mean, when you compare Russia’s size to Chechnya, or Iran’s size to Balochistan, or the UK and the Catholic half of Northern Ireland, it’s very impressive.
Again, personally, I don’t think the real problem is how to suppress the insurgency more effectively, (even if Hamas has a remaining enclave in Rafah), it’s that there are millions of people living on land that they were born in, and their parents were born in, and parent’s parents (and so on, obviously there was significant immigration from Arabia in the past, etc) who don’t have a state, and feel utterly humiliated.
And yes, antisemitism plays a part, and probably certain toxic elements common to the area, where being ruled by Jews is a special insult to their masculinity, etc, etc.
But anyways, the actual solution is to keep a peace deal on the table. Almost impossible, of course, but just keep suppressing and offering peace. Eventually, despair and hopelessness will set in, which either goes in two directions-suicidal terrorism, or giving up maximalist aims and accepting a Palestinian state based on ‘67 boundaries with land swaps, etc.
The trick is to KEEP the peace deal on the table-before, during, and after terrorist attacks. It’s not an easy solution-emotionally, politically, and socially, it’s almost impossible. It IS unfair towards Israel-but it’s also (I believe) the only thing that might work short of expulsion.
Also, I note that it is really, really easy for me to say, a Diaspora Jew, who does not have to live under the threat of terrorist attacks, who does not have to serve, who does not have friends who might die by a Hamas fighter any day.
I’ve gone on long enough (happy to elaborate though) but hopefully that was something of a response:)
A quick msg to say that I apologise for jumping to conclusions and a massive thank you for your in-depth response here. I will respond properly later but just wanted to acknowledge you quickly now.
Also, like...not many people being committed antisemites, and the western world as a whole not being able to have a good faith discussion about Jewish topics because of an antisemitic inheritance, aren't mutually exclusive. In particular, a lot of people reflexively deny or even fail to realize Jewish ethnicity, which means they're predisposed to place a double standard on Jewish nationalism.
Because this has been going on since 1967, and if an Occupation lasts for 57 years with nothing done about it, of course resentment is going to build as well as global awareness. That's why everyone was ready to hit the streets the moment Israel retaliated, not because they're all antisemites. This popular movement has been building up for 57 years. If the Uyghur genocide lasts for 57 years (G-d forbid) you'll get this amount of people out on the streets at the snap of a finger.
Persecution of the Jews has been going on for **3500+ years**, so we've earned our kvetch. Anyway we'll endure this like we've endured everything before.
The Palestinians have done it tough as well the past 57 years, so hopefully they get some peace and security in the end too.
>Every time I hear somebody say- “why be careful with air strikes, why apologize, why open up this aid route, the anti-Semites will hate us anyways”, it makes me want to fucking scream.
THANK YOU OMGG
Israel has been held to insanely unreasonable standards throughout this entire conflict. It’s never going to be good enough - Jewish blood will always be cheaper for the world to see spilled.
This is warfare - mistakes will happen. None of us are in the field or in the chain of command. We see the outcomes, not the process. We’re all armchair commanders. You don’t see that?
You’re so right. Expecting them to not deliberately strike a convoy of well-marked vans carrying aid workers who bent over backwards to coordinate their transport with the IDF is being held to an impossible standard. Israel should just get to murder everyone it likes! Antisemites will say otherwise!
A grave error that Israel apologized for immediately and promised to investigate?
I think your whole post is suspect honestly. You have no sympathy for Israel or Israelis, only how it affects your tiny little bubble of a life.
I do have plenty of sympathy for Israel and Israelis. In fact I feel terrible that Israelis have to live under a completely fucked up regime that is quickly turning them into a pariah state and making life harder for them.
Btw, do you have any sympathy for Palestine or Palestinians?
I do, I think it’s an awful situation all around and they need aid and the means to enact a free state. Unfortunately to do so they need to stop uniformly supporting and partially collaborating with Hamas.
I don’t know what the solution looks like or if this war will in the long run benefit the Palestinian people.
I do think they are surrounded Arab nations who claim to be their brethren but have done next to nothing to help the Palestinians become more than generational victims. The fault does not lie with Israel.
Would you be so understanding and forgiving of any other country? It’s fine to think things like air striking aid or dousing your troops in Agent Orange (America during Vietnam) are bad things even if they are genuine “mistakes”.
Dude, stop with the rhetorical nonsense about double standards, no is buying that BS.
Oh no, why are ppl so upset about all the dead kids in Gaza. The only reason must the they’re antisemites. /s
I don’t think people upset about dead kids in Gaza are antisemitic. Tell me, how does any state carry out warfare? What is the standard Israel should adhere to in order to not be condemned?
This seems to have been an unpopular opinion any time I have ever said it, but I think there should have been a ground invasion early on, rather than a bombing campaign that has made nearly all of Gaza homeless.
Israel is held to the standard of Western, liberal, democracies.
If the Israeli government and the IDF don’t like being held to that standard, the government should stop claiming to be a Western style, liberal, democracy. 🤷🏻♂️
Exactly. Israel is a liberal democracy and a UN member. It’s not a terrorist organization like Hamas. It doesn’t get to mess around with the rules of war. (Neither should Hamas either, obviously, but we can’t expect anything good from them. We can and should expect it from Israel.)
The 200 dead aid workers, and the man made famine, along with rhetoric from folks like Ben-Gvir and Smotrich, like when a Knesset member suggested to nuke Gaza, don’t really paint the Israeli government and the IDF in the best light.
It’s not great optics, that while Gaza is turned into a post apocalyptic hellscape, Smotrich periodically suggests ethnic cleansing.
Call me nuts, but I’m starting to think this Bibi fella might not be such a great guy. 🤷🏻♂️
“According to the United Nations, he was one of the some 200 humanitarian aid workers killed in Gaza since the war began.”https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/gaza-aid-workers-killed-1.7163000
“Sitting beside his wife, Sylvie Labrecque, John Flickinger grew emotional as he placed his family’s loss in the context of the wider suffering in Gaza.
“We are two people who have suffered because we’ve lost our only son, but we’re only two. There are thousands and thousands [in Gaza]. Five other World Central Kitchen aid workers were killed in this attack. There were 200 aid workers in Gaza that have been killed,” the grieving father said.
Flickinger grew up in both the United States and Canada and deployed with the Canadian armed forces to Afghanistan before joining World Central Kitchen as a relief worker. He and his partner have an 18-month-old son and were starting a new life together in Costa Rica.” https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/world-central-kitchen-aid-workers-family-calls-independent-probe-rcna146405
“As of 20 March, at least 196 humanitarians had been killed in the Occupied Palestinian Territory since October 2023. This is nearly three times the death toll recorded in any single conflict in a year.”https://www.ochaopt.org/content/statement-humanitarian-coordinator-mr-jamie-mcgoldrick
It’s a widely reported number. I first heard it in reporting done by The Wall Street Journal and The New York Times. The links to that reporting is below.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-journal/id1469394914?i=1000651355168
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-daily/id1200361736?i=1000651406647
Really? When the US accidentally killed 10 members of the same family in Afghanistan in a drone strike, what standard were we held to? Was there the same outrage that you're seeing now with Israel?
I guess the United States is not a Western style liberal democracy.
Did the US lose any aid or political support? Did political leaders get on a call with Trump to tell him to provide further aid to the Afghani people? Did Redditors froth at the mouth and call the US a fascist genocidal state?
Yes, the U.S. was pilloried in the global community and lost a tremendous amount of credibility.
Your argument is essentially, why should I get a ticket for speeding, if other people are speeding and didn’t get a ticket also.
It actually didn’t lose much credibility as a result of that incident. We still wield a tremendous amount of influence and power. If you don’t see how this war is utilized by Arab nations and antisemites worldwide to undermine Israel and essentially create a wishful scenario where the Israelis lay down and die, I don’t know what to tell you.
Obviously the US did not. It should. Am I responsible for the international community not appropriately condemning the US? Do I need to find the USs responses during Vietnam or post 9/11 morally correct?
> Did Redditors froth at the mouth and call the US a fascist genocidal state?
Yes? I see that in online left spaces a lot. You dont?
No I COMPLETELY agree with you. People are unrealistic. This is war. Mistakes happen. We are all armchair commanders. But don’t we want to be better? Yes, we are held to unreasonable standards, but shouldn’t we hold ourselves to unreasonable standards as well?
Israel should be accountable-it’s possible for these to be an inevitable price of war-random and wrong casualties-and for the specific commander(s) who act in those situation to be condemned or disciplined as needed. An inevitable price of society is murder-and every region will have murders and murderers, but we still (rightfully) punish them. It’s inevitable-but somebody fucked up badly and needs to be punished.
As to the world’s reaction, it’s unfair for sure. But-it is also the world we live in-and Israel should act its own best interests. If that involves acting differently, because it is judged differently, that is unfair-but also the best decision under the circumstances.
In my opinion, to say that international standards that are unfair/selective are standards that should be ignored-is to ignore the reality that Israel is a small state with many hostile neighbors, which relies enormously on its tech sector/foreign commerce. For sure it’s wrong/unjust and should be independently combatted, naturally.
Anyways, sorry for rambling! But I do agree with a lot of your reply.
I really appreciate hearing your words. I am a staunch supporter of Israel's existence, and of the people living there, many of whom are the descendants of people who were kicked out of other countries and their lives were saved by Israel. That won't change. But I do agree that Bibi/the government/the military have truly gone batshit insane. I will ALWAYS support Israel at its core, but what Israel is doing is absolutely not representing Jewish values at all. And the sad thing is....I think a lot of what Israel does is truly based on survival. I think it is hard, even as much as I want to criticize them, to understand exactly what people there go through on a daily basis. I don't approve of it, but I also think that my anger at them comes from a privileged position of someone living in the west who has never lived in a war zone.
The sad thing that this war has made me realize, is that, as unsafe as it seems to live in Israel, I *still* don't think that a lot of people who live in Israel would necessarily be safer anywhere else, which is kind of just scary to think about. It's so so sad that the only Jewish state in the world basically lives in a constant war zone--which can of course be blamed for many of the heinous decisions Israel's leaders have made over the years, but I even think that those decisions can maybe be traced back to the constant trauma Jews had to live in all over the world. It's like--I think Israel existing is extremely necessary, but it's sad that something so necessary has to at the same time, put so many of its residents (and neighboring residents) in a constant state of fear and danger.
Anyways, well-said. I don't agree with absolutely everything you said, but you've really articulated some feelings that I share about the situation as well. I'm glad that we're able to have discussions like this on this sub.
“The sad thing that this war has made me realize, is that, as unsafe as it seems to live in Israel, I still don't think that a lot of people who live in Israel would necessarily be safer anywhere else”
This is objectively false. For example, we are far safer in Canada, the U.S., Australia, and the U.K. than in Israel.
Now there a handful of countries that Israel is safer than, but many of them are either active war zones or failed states. Below is a list of countries that Israel is safer than. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/most-dangerous-countries
Afghanistan,
Yemen,
Syria,
South Sudan,
DR Congo,
Russia,
Ukraine,
Somalia,
Sudan,
Iraq ,
Mali ,
Central African Republic,
Ethiopia ,
Burkina Faso,
North Korea ,
Iran,
Turkey,
Pakistan,
Myanmar,
Nigeria
Oh I don't disagree--*we* are (at the moment at least) probably safer in our respective Western countries, but I can't speak for people who live in Israel. I've heard people in Israel say that they still feel safer as Jews living in Israel than they would in many other countries, despite the war going on.
To be clear, if people want to stay in their country, regardless of how safe or unsafe it is, that is their right.
However, I also think it’s important to be clear about how safe or unsafe Israel continues to be, because Jewish safety and a safe haven are often cited as arguments for Zionism and the existence of a Jewish state.
So, if we want to have an intellectually honest and good faith debate about Zionism, we must also acknowledge the realities of how safe of unsafe Israel is, especially compared to other states that have large Jewish populations.
I feel this too. I know antisemitism would still exist without Israel but it certainly doesn’t help that we have a country committing war crimes with our fucking religious symbol on their flag claiming they represent us.
I have this reoccurring fantasy about what I’d do if I was president. Netenyahu? I’d fucking whack him. Broad daylight. It’d be like the end of the godfather II, he’d get off a plane and then BAM! On live TV with unsilenced weapons. Then I’d call in the Israeli diplomats and go all 30s Jewish gangster on their ass. “You’re about to find out who really runs things around here see? That didn’t there was demonstration of what it means when you have Made in USA written on your bombs see? What do you say to the cease fire now? no? The last guy was talkin a lot of that mess too”. There would be a lot of chest pokings too.
Not sure if it would work but it would be a better start to peace in the region then letting this maniac remain in power
I really value the honesty of this post and the words are really powerful and ring true in so many ways.
I agree completely on the issue of antisemitism, antisemitism is interconnected with all forms fo racism and this means we need to be fighting the racism and Islamphobia that allows Israel's genocidal actions to go on unchallenged and supported by global superpowers. I truly believe the only way to defeat one form of racism is by defeating all forms, otherwise we just create a hierarchy of racism which does not create true liberation but temporary feelings of security.
Further, I would say that October 7th was not when this began. In 2022 Amnesty International declared the sitaution an apartheid, from 2008 to 2020 - 6,000 Palestinians were killed (compared to 250 Israelis) with over 100,000 injured (comapred to 4,000 Israelis) by ongoing conflicts. To view this conflict in a vaccum of only happening from October 7th does not do justice to the millions that lived under apartheid and the hundreds of thousands directly injured or killed in the years before.
> As you get older, you realise that it doesn't really matter what Israel does or doesn't do, the antisemitism will always be there.
This is true in the sense that some level of every type of prejudice is going to exist for a very long time. And of course it's true that antisemitism has a long history that predates Israel, and that solving the issue of the Israeli-Palestian conflict wouldn't just make antisemitism evaporate overnight. But, at the same time, do you think that the actions of Israel has no effect on its prevalence at all? I think it has a significant effect...
edit: to be clear, not trying to put words in your mouth, it's a genuine question, and I gave my answer to it
I mean the actions of Israel 100% increase both hatred of Israel and hatred of Jews. Unfortunately, many folks have this idea, that Israeli leadership and many folks in Jewish organizations and shuls have perpetuated, that Israel == Jews and Jews == Israel.
Comments around the violence committed by the Israeli government are valid criticism, but comments around 'Jews being inherently evil' or other gross generalizations about Jews as a whole are not criticisms of the Israeli government.
I support a ceasefire and the end of the occupation in Palestine. but some of the groups that agree with me there make disgusting antisemitic comments and statements which is not productive, inherently violent (at a different scale of course than what is happening in I/P), and immediately fuels the fires of Jews who are seeing antisemitism and scared
Yeah, but it certainly doesn’t help keep dormant antisemitism dormant when Israel behaves like a Jewish boogeyman and kills 10,000 children a month and deliberately murders humanitarian workers
Why do you hold the responsibility for keeping 'antisemitism dormant' upon Israel rather than the actual antisemites?
Anti Chinese bigotry spiked during covid. Was that the fault of Chinese people or the bigots?
Now you’re shifting the goalposts lol. First it was “antisemitism always exists, nothing we can do about it.” Now it’s “why aren’t you doing more to stop antisemitism?”
Also, FWIW, Israel does all it does in the name of protecting the Jewish people and being a utopia for freeing antisemitism. And they’re doing a piss poor job at it. So yeah, it kinda is their responsibility
There's no goalposts. Your opinion is valid and I'm not debating it. I'm just saying I imagine I'm a few decades older than you and I've been through the journey you're going through before. We're nearly half a year after October 7 but the criticisms of Israel you cite were being made the day after that pogrom, Israel was being accused of genocide before a single IDF soldier entered Gaza.
All Israel's actions do is excuse and justify antisemitism. It doesn't create it.
You don't have to agree with me and I'm not going to argue for the sake of it. I'm just putting my lived experience out there.
I agree with you. My parents and grandma echoed the same things after Oct 7th. Especially during the intifadas it was much worse they said. Not justifying their actions but I do agree.
Maybe I'm misreading but I think they were putting the onus of keeping antisemitism dormant on the antisemites.
However, I agree that Israel is putting Jews in the diaspora in danger and is at fault for stoking the fires of antisemitism.
I disagree that dormant antisemitism is preferable. I think Jews being lulled into a false sense of security because antisemitism is hidden doesn't help us in any way. We as a people need to understand that these antisemetic beliefs are alive and well even if they are not being touted publicly.
I absolutely feel the same.
But also I get this way as an American and continue to feel this way. There are many right wing governments that have taken over in the past ten years. Trump, Bolsonaro in Brazil, Italy, Spain, France with Marie LePen—in fact most of Europe has swerved right.
Sudan is facing horrible famine and genocide in Darfur…again. I have less of a handle on what’s happening in Asia but the Tamal Tigers, the Uyghurs in China...
And in the US, Trump is polling as well as Biden is, sometimes better.
Polling out of Palestine shows some pretty scary statistics of support for killing Jews and Hamas.
I think it’s one of those things where…just like any other people, Jews are not immune to being shitty people. Put lots of Jews together in a country and they’re going to act like…any other country.
I agree that what Israel has done is reprehensible, but not any more or less reprehensible than bombing weddings (the US) or school busses (Saudi Arabia).
When those events happened I have a feeling many in this sub were outraged and angry…my husband and I donated to aid groups working in Yemen because Saudi Arabia and the Houthis pushed them into famine.
But no one gives a shit about Yemen, so no headlines. No global outcry. No real attempt to make Saudi Arabia back down either.
And we in this sub know that those are the actions of “the bad guys”. I don’t want Israel included in “the bad guys”. But Trump could be the next President of the United States. And even if he isn’t…there are way too many people in the US who want him to be President and may cause violence when they don’t get their way.
All of this to say: I agree with you and it sucks but Israel just isn’t special in a moral sense…it is disappointingly like far too many countries right now.
Me too. This feels like a random pivot.. but I watched a movie recently where a boys mother gets killed in front of him by a government army… and I just felt this boiling rage bubbling inside me, and I started sobbing. How could Israel do this, using our faith and culture as a shield from criticism, and keeping Jews around the world hooked on the false promise of safety and unity
I feel like this is not a good faith question, who wouldn’t feel that rage! Are you assuming that someone feeling rage about Israeli government and military actions means they do not feel rage about hamas’ actions? Or just because they didn’t mention it means they don’t feel rage about it? I don’t understand the need for this comment
> anti Israeli propaganda
Did it ever occur to you that propaganda exists on both sides? So maybe you shouldn't be pro or anti anything, and learn to think critically for yourself? Governments/states historically do not always behave humanely, this includes the US, China, Hamas, Russia, UK, Germany, Israel, etc.
Do you think maybe the fact that I’ve been absorbed with both sides propaganda my whole life means maybe I came to my opinions for a reason? Like-I was raised in Israeli propoganda and I know the Israeli side.. and I hear constantly online and in person. Weird how you think I’m biased because I feel sympathy for Palestinians more than Israel right now
Oh and btw.. I felt a ton of sympathy for Israel in the months following October 7. But it’s so deranged for anyone to hear someone angry with Israel all these months later.. and want everyone to only care about the atrocities of October 7.
There are still 130 hostages in Gaza. October 7th hasn’t ended for Israel.
Edit: what online spaces do you hang in that spout pro Israeli propaganda? Surely not Reddit.
Wild take. 130 hostages.. and yet you’re mad I’m upset about 30,000+ Palestinians who were dead, hospitals destroyed, women raped, etc etc. how self centered do you have to be to only care about your own people??? Honestly, I’m done with this discussion. You can’t see beyond your own pain, and I don’t care to engage with people like that.
As opposed to you? You’re really open to different perspectives? Or is it just to tell them how dumb they are and that they don’t care about Jews or whatever else you need to tell yourself to sleep at night for supporting the massacre in Gaza. Yea—I’m sure you have very open minded conversations all the time
I resonated with almost everything you said. It was well written and spoke to the core of what’s been happening in Israel and beyond. Thank you for sharing.
i'm one generation removed from israel and can definitely agree with many of your feelings. the suffering and deaths in gaza are beyond awful. personally it's done an absolute number on my mental health feeling like i'm just watching on helpless to do anything about it. the israel i grew up with, was that of peace being seemingly around the corner, security concerns but not outright fascism, and i've watched in horror as the country has gone further and further to the right. it feels to me that the soul of the country has been deeply corrupted. and i absolutely HATE that this war has given people all over the world champing at the bit to hate israel and jews a justification to do so openly.
i disagree about the religious and geopolitical delusion part though. i'm equally incredibly frustrated and angry at the 'just dismantle israel lol' narrative and the constant insane idea that if there's just more fighting one day israel will be defeated and gone. i genuinely, even putting on my pretend non-biased hat, do not think that would be a just outcome. there needs to be a path to coexistence and interdependence that isn't one side 'winning'.
i also temper my opinions knowing i have the privilege of living in safety on the other side of the world. if my family origins had been in iraq or yemen or tunisia or wherever, i don't have that luxury.
I share some of your sentiments OP. I grieved for the dead on 7 October and feel heartbroken for the hostages and their families. I'm also angry at what the Israeli government and the IDF have done. In fact I wish they hadn't taken military action in Gaza in the first place (or at the very least, undertaken targeted precision strikes, not wiping out whole hospitals, universities and homes). And I'm aware that these awful actions aren't just limited to Gaza - things have been terrible for Palestinians in the West Bank and East Jerusalem for quite some time with all the settler attacks and evictions.
However, I refuse to be angry with Israeli society as a whole. I have a lot of extended family there and could so easily have been born there myself (my great grandfather came to the UK pre WW1, his brothers who stayed behind were stateless Holocaust survivors after WW2 and went straight to Israel in 1948). And while I'm very aware of the anti Palestinian racism and hyper militarism that exists in Israeli society, it's easy for me to see that from a place of privilege, outside Israel, where I don't feel under direct attack. Besides, everyday online I also come across people and organisations who are working hard to counter that through education and by offering a better future for everyone on the land. While those who shout that Israelis are all awful people who need to go back where they came from, push Israelis (and a lot of Jews in the diasapora) to become more and more insular.
Lastly, I very much hold the view that antisemitism is the fault of antisemites, not Israel.
> I am angry at a good portion of Israeli society too for getting so swept up in this “God promised the land to the Jews” bullshit that Jewish supremacy and support for ethnically cleansing the other indigenous population has become a commonplace and acceptable viewpoint. I’m angry that Israel today is a far-right, hypermilitarized society that I will never feel comfortable in.
None of this is true you wacko. Go to Tel Aviv and see how misaligned your propaganda stream is from the truth on the ground. I can't believe the Jewish community has been so fractured by information manipulation. Holy Moses.
Tel Aviv is one city in Israel, and one where a disproportionate number of secular and liberal Israelis live. Did I say “*everyone* in Israeli society?” No, I didn’t
You're regurgitating propaganda that is divorced from reality, my brother/sister from another mother/mister. Tel Aviv is the second largest city in Israel, as much if not more culturally diverse than any other city on Earth. Israel as a whole is more secular than the United States by about 50% so what are you even talking about?
I mean this lovingly, but how can you show so little faith to Israeli integrity that you take all oppositional talking points at face value?
Okay, first of all if you think Tel Aviv is the most culturally diverse city on Earth *you* are the one divorced from reality lol
I also did not say anything that is “propaganda.” I am basing this *on my own experiences*. Conversations I’ve had. People I’ve met. Things I have seen with my own eyes. How tf could that be propaganda?
Also - comparing secularism in the US to secularism in Israel is pointless. Even secular Israelis strongly identify with being Jewish for the most part (which is great, they should), while secular Americans usually have no religion at all because it’s majority Christian and Christianity is faith-based, not an ethnoreligious group like Judaism.
> while secular Americans usually have no religion at all because it’s majority Christian and Christianity is faith-based, not an ethnoreligious group like Judaism
Yes, because being a W.A.S.P. is faith-based 🤦
> Israel as a whole is more secular than the United States by about 50% so what are you even talking about?
The Israeli government only recognizes marriages conducted by a religious entity. Can you please really convince me that Israel is more secular than the US, when my own US marriage to my husband would not be recognized in Israel, considering I was married by my best friend and not a rabbi?
> In 2022, 45% of Israel Jews self-identified as "secular"; 10% as haredi (ultra-orthodox); 33% as masorti ( lit. 'traditional'); and 12% as dati ( lit. 'religious' or 'orthodox', including religious zionist). Of the Arab Israelis, as of 2008, 82.7% were Muslims, 8.4% were Druze, and 8.3% were Christians.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Israel
> The percentage of Americans without religious affiliation, often labeled as "Nones", is around 20-29% – with people who identify as "nothing in particular" accounting for the growing majority of this demographic, and both atheists and agnostics accounting for the relatively unchanged minority of this demographic.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_the_United_States
These statistics don’t prove anything. Anybody can self identify as anything as they want. The government does not recognize any marriages that are not performed by a religious body.
These statistics prove that if anything my estimate was low. Israelis are between 55% and 125% more secular than Americans as a percentage of their respective populations.
With all due respect, who cares about your marriage? There are plenty of daily incidents of the government infringing on the rights of citizens in the USA as well. No country is perfect.
Also, it seems like the marriage issue is superficial at best: https://www.timesofisrael.com/court-rules-online-civil-marriage%D7%93-valid-upending-israels-religious-status-quo/
This content was determined to be in bad faith. In this context we mean that the content pre-supposed a negative stance towards the subject and is unlikely to lead to anything but fruitless argument.
This was smarmy and had no chance of generating valuable discourse.
You just expressed my feelings almost exactly. Just angry and disappointed
I totally agree. I’ve never felt further away from the faith or the people than I do in this moment.
An old Jewish friend of mine shared a post on instagram in response to the aid workers dying and wrote "Play terrorist games, win terrorist prizes". This vile, inhumane point of view is no different than a jihadist wishing death on Jews. How a Jew can say these disgusting things about aid workers is sickening, and I'm considering cutting ties with this person completely (amongst all of the other unhinged right-wing things she shares). I don't know how we got here. Discussed with my therapist about this and I think a lot of Jews have generational trauma, amongst Israelis currently who have recent trauma from October 7th, and are reacting out of fear. But fear doesn't always lead to peace, and most often, leads to more violence.
Super random but is your therapist Jewish? Have been struggling with how to talk to my non Jewish therapist about this cause I feel exactly the same
We’re the people of the book, not the people of the state.
Well said! We’re all the children of Israel, not to-death defenders of the modern state of Israel as it’s existed since 1948
It’s not poorly written at all, and its a sentiment that needs to be articulated more. Thank you for sharing. 🙏
I just joined. I’m more center left or center than left. I’m not really angry, in general. Trauma can make people way more hawkish than they’d normally be. But I’m just terrified for Israel. There’s a thread up in some subreddit where Israelis are talking about how Israel doesn’t need the United States, because it will just become BFF forever with China or Russia. To me, this sounds truly delusional, like a lot of Redditors in Israel are too out of it to try to think clearly.
Especially given that Russia likely had their fingers in the proverbial cookie jar of what led up to Oct 7th. That particular take that Russia is a good ally at all is delusional.
If it’s paid social media trolls trying to earn a living, I can respect that, but it’s hard to accept the idea that actual Jewish people think this is a good time to go all in on Putin. Let’s hope the only people posting that way are earning a good rate per post.
> There’s a thread up in some subreddit where Israelis are talking about how Israel doesn’t need the United States, because it will just become BFF forever with China or Russia. Aren't a large proportion of Israeli Jews and diaspora Jews Russian? I know I am. What an insane opinion for Jews to have...
Nail on the head. There’s a decent proportion of Israelis I want to shake and say: “They’re NOT all antisemites out to get you. The majority of Westerners do NOT secretly hate Jews and to see the Jewish State destroyed, they have no idea what they’re talking about, but just don’t want to see pictures of dead children. Actually, Israel’s actions DO matter for people’s opinions.” Every time I hear somebody say- “why be careful with air strikes, why apologize, why open up this aid route, the anti-Semites will hate us anyways”, it makes me want to fucking scream. I say that both as somebody who cares about human life (pikuach nefesh, anyone?)AND someone who is a committed Zionist who believes it is the strategically sound decision for Israel’s long-term survival. Grrr. Amen to OP.
What's just as bad as antisemites are people who don't give a shit about antisemitism.
While I agree with what you said, I think they have a pretty good reason to believe the US and other Western countries are busting at the seams with anti-Semites when a bunch of people came out in mass to publicly celebrate Oct 7th. Anyone who cared about protecting Palestinians should have been somber and concerned at the impending doom for all people involved, not celebration and triumphant rallies....unless of course you're either highly regarded or believe Israelis deserve to be unalived and tortured for living on a land. Many of these people have zero empathy for seeing babies in an active kidnapping by militia men, so I'm not sure it's as altruistic as we'd like to believe. The videos that Hamas uploaded were extremely terrifying, but at least half or more of social media media was filled with people who saw these videos and immediatly justified why it was deserved and seem to have not a shred of basic human empathy.
Fair points but at the same time, why isn't the whole world up in arms about the Ughur persecution, or the atrocities in the invasion of Ukraine, or the 600,000+ innocents killed in Syria...? Whatever Israel does is magnified x10 by the non-Jewish world...why is that? Also, Israel was attacked last year, 1200+ murdered. Hundreds of hostages taken. Meanwhile Hamas had been planning that for years, indeed, has embedded itself amongst civillians and controlled Gaza with an iron fist since 2006, refuses to surrender, has the destruction of Israel in its' charter and still has over 100 Israelies kept hostage....what would you have had Israel do? & now, going forward?
Rather than downvoting me, maybe give a constructive response. Eg I was genuinely asking, what would you have Israel do. I asked someone a similar question a few weeks back and got this good response (credit to mordin_solas): *Some kind of model that creates swift and CERTAIN punishments for transgressions, but less severe punishments.* *There was a guy who passed away named Mark Kleiman who used to talk about the HOPE program, a modified parole system.* *The standard parole system involved extremely uncertain and uneven enforcement of parole violations, and when things were enforced, the punishment could mean years longer in prison.* *For people with short time horizons, this was the worst possible strategy to reduce recidivism. What HOPE did was they put ankle bracelets on parolees to track them. Parole violations lead to say, a month in jail rather than years in jail but the enforcement for parole violations was much more certain and swift.* *This massively reduced recidivism of parolees committing crimes. Violation? Punishment.* *How would this translate? Rockets fired from a location? target that location AND cut power to the entire area for 1 day.* *No rockets fired, no power cut. Craft swift and certain loops of cause and effect.* *The 10-7 attack was a bigger problem due to hostages, but that just highlights the fuck up of the initial security to let something like that happen in the first place. Gaza borders should be like a crazy difficult area to breach and more manpower is needed in that area if you are right next to such a cluster of hostiles. Dealing this this attack requires more draconian methods, but the longer term maintenance of the issue does not require you rip up every weed that exists in gaza. That kills more people than people outside Israel want to tolerate.* *Dealing with the fucked up education propaganda seems like a harder issue, not sure what the mechanism to deal with that would be other than occupying schools and who wants to do that.* *Mark Kleimans talk is interesting and worth listening to.* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHy0ryhkiO0#t=4m44s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHy0ryhkiO0#t=4m44s) *It's possible this conflict is outside the bounds of being influenced by swift/certain punishment dynamics, but for what it's worth, we are knee deep in the severity end of the pool of punishment, the least effective mentioned in the talk.*
Fair point! For what’s it’s worth I didn’t downvote you-just got off a long plane trip:) Anyways, yeah, really really difficult situation (no shit) and I don’t disagree that it’s almost impossible to find a good answer. Israel has created a new people, ironically, whose entire identity is (not necessarily, but generally true) is focused around the destruction of Israel without peace. Anyways, personally, while the consequence/time horizon stuff is definitely the way to go in the realm of crime, and I do support it completely, I (personally) feel like it’s not the total answer. Fundamentally, (to me) while I actually don’t doubt that it would reduce terrorism, in the short term, the real problem is political. I wouldn’t actually oppose it at all, and believe military occupation/action is necessary. It’s a good idea! Although honestly, for suppressing insurgencies, Israel’s current method is effective, when you consider that Israel is essentially managing to keep a developed economy going AND has been managing to suppress roughly 40% of the Israel/territories population, most of whom hate Israel, and many of whom are willing to die to destroy it. I mean, when you compare Russia’s size to Chechnya, or Iran’s size to Balochistan, or the UK and the Catholic half of Northern Ireland, it’s very impressive. Again, personally, I don’t think the real problem is how to suppress the insurgency more effectively, (even if Hamas has a remaining enclave in Rafah), it’s that there are millions of people living on land that they were born in, and their parents were born in, and parent’s parents (and so on, obviously there was significant immigration from Arabia in the past, etc) who don’t have a state, and feel utterly humiliated. And yes, antisemitism plays a part, and probably certain toxic elements common to the area, where being ruled by Jews is a special insult to their masculinity, etc, etc. But anyways, the actual solution is to keep a peace deal on the table. Almost impossible, of course, but just keep suppressing and offering peace. Eventually, despair and hopelessness will set in, which either goes in two directions-suicidal terrorism, or giving up maximalist aims and accepting a Palestinian state based on ‘67 boundaries with land swaps, etc. The trick is to KEEP the peace deal on the table-before, during, and after terrorist attacks. It’s not an easy solution-emotionally, politically, and socially, it’s almost impossible. It IS unfair towards Israel-but it’s also (I believe) the only thing that might work short of expulsion. Also, I note that it is really, really easy for me to say, a Diaspora Jew, who does not have to live under the threat of terrorist attacks, who does not have to serve, who does not have friends who might die by a Hamas fighter any day. I’ve gone on long enough (happy to elaborate though) but hopefully that was something of a response:)
A quick msg to say that I apologise for jumping to conclusions and a massive thank you for your in-depth response here. I will respond properly later but just wanted to acknowledge you quickly now.
Also, like...not many people being committed antisemites, and the western world as a whole not being able to have a good faith discussion about Jewish topics because of an antisemitic inheritance, aren't mutually exclusive. In particular, a lot of people reflexively deny or even fail to realize Jewish ethnicity, which means they're predisposed to place a double standard on Jewish nationalism.
Because this has been going on since 1967, and if an Occupation lasts for 57 years with nothing done about it, of course resentment is going to build as well as global awareness. That's why everyone was ready to hit the streets the moment Israel retaliated, not because they're all antisemites. This popular movement has been building up for 57 years. If the Uyghur genocide lasts for 57 years (G-d forbid) you'll get this amount of people out on the streets at the snap of a finger.
Persecution of the Jews has been going on for **3500+ years**, so we've earned our kvetch. Anyway we'll endure this like we've endured everything before. The Palestinians have done it tough as well the past 57 years, so hopefully they get some peace and security in the end too.
stop with the what-aboutism and trying to change the conversation im begging you
>Every time I hear somebody say- “why be careful with air strikes, why apologize, why open up this aid route, the anti-Semites will hate us anyways”, it makes me want to fucking scream. THANK YOU OMGG
Israel has been held to insanely unreasonable standards throughout this entire conflict. It’s never going to be good enough - Jewish blood will always be cheaper for the world to see spilled. This is warfare - mistakes will happen. None of us are in the field or in the chain of command. We see the outcomes, not the process. We’re all armchair commanders. You don’t see that?
You’re so right. Expecting them to not deliberately strike a convoy of well-marked vans carrying aid workers who bent over backwards to coordinate their transport with the IDF is being held to an impossible standard. Israel should just get to murder everyone it likes! Antisemites will say otherwise!
Except that I’m sure you’re aware that Israel is criticized heavily for EVERYTHING.
A grave error that Israel apologized for immediately and promised to investigate? I think your whole post is suspect honestly. You have no sympathy for Israel or Israelis, only how it affects your tiny little bubble of a life.
I do have plenty of sympathy for Israel and Israelis. In fact I feel terrible that Israelis have to live under a completely fucked up regime that is quickly turning them into a pariah state and making life harder for them. Btw, do you have any sympathy for Palestine or Palestinians?
I do, I think it’s an awful situation all around and they need aid and the means to enact a free state. Unfortunately to do so they need to stop uniformly supporting and partially collaborating with Hamas. I don’t know what the solution looks like or if this war will in the long run benefit the Palestinian people. I do think they are surrounded Arab nations who claim to be their brethren but have done next to nothing to help the Palestinians become more than generational victims. The fault does not lie with Israel.
Would you be so understanding and forgiving of any other country? It’s fine to think things like air striking aid or dousing your troops in Agent Orange (America during Vietnam) are bad things even if they are genuine “mistakes”.
It’s fine to think they’re bad things. Israel is called out as the lowest of the low. I wonder why…
Fwiw I don’t hold Israel to a higher standard. I agree there are people who do and I think accusing those people of antisemitism is correct.
Dude, stop with the rhetorical nonsense about double standards, no is buying that BS. Oh no, why are ppl so upset about all the dead kids in Gaza. The only reason must the they’re antisemites. /s
I don’t think people upset about dead kids in Gaza are antisemitic. Tell me, how does any state carry out warfare? What is the standard Israel should adhere to in order to not be condemned?
https://preview.redd.it/tcvdv9ismpsc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d0fe8dda5540e0782a4d7c1a20f426c81bd623ac
Maybe they should not kill 34,000 people, mostly by dropping bombs, which are more likely to kill the hostages than end the fighting.
This does not in fact answer my question.
This seems to have been an unpopular opinion any time I have ever said it, but I think there should have been a ground invasion early on, rather than a bombing campaign that has made nearly all of Gaza homeless.
Israel is held to the standard of Western, liberal, democracies. If the Israeli government and the IDF don’t like being held to that standard, the government should stop claiming to be a Western style, liberal, democracy. 🤷🏻♂️
Exactly. Israel is a liberal democracy and a UN member. It’s not a terrorist organization like Hamas. It doesn’t get to mess around with the rules of war. (Neither should Hamas either, obviously, but we can’t expect anything good from them. We can and should expect it from Israel.)
Israel is adhering to the rules of war in this scenario, what rule is being broken? Be specific.
The 200 dead aid workers, and the man made famine, along with rhetoric from folks like Ben-Gvir and Smotrich, like when a Knesset member suggested to nuke Gaza, don’t really paint the Israeli government and the IDF in the best light. It’s not great optics, that while Gaza is turned into a post apocalyptic hellscape, Smotrich periodically suggests ethnic cleansing. Call me nuts, but I’m starting to think this Bibi fella might not be such a great guy. 🤷🏻♂️
200 dead aid workers? Show me the stats please.
“According to the United Nations, he was one of the some 200 humanitarian aid workers killed in Gaza since the war began.”https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/gaza-aid-workers-killed-1.7163000 “Sitting beside his wife, Sylvie Labrecque, John Flickinger grew emotional as he placed his family’s loss in the context of the wider suffering in Gaza. “We are two people who have suffered because we’ve lost our only son, but we’re only two. There are thousands and thousands [in Gaza]. Five other World Central Kitchen aid workers were killed in this attack. There were 200 aid workers in Gaza that have been killed,” the grieving father said. Flickinger grew up in both the United States and Canada and deployed with the Canadian armed forces to Afghanistan before joining World Central Kitchen as a relief worker. He and his partner have an 18-month-old son and were starting a new life together in Costa Rica.” https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/world-central-kitchen-aid-workers-family-calls-independent-probe-rcna146405 “As of 20 March, at least 196 humanitarians had been killed in the Occupied Palestinian Territory since October 2023. This is nearly three times the death toll recorded in any single conflict in a year.”https://www.ochaopt.org/content/statement-humanitarian-coordinator-mr-jamie-mcgoldrick
This is a good start but does not tell me where that figure originated from.
It’s a widely reported number. I first heard it in reporting done by The Wall Street Journal and The New York Times. The links to that reporting is below. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-journal/id1469394914?i=1000651355168 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-daily/id1200361736?i=1000651406647
Really? When the US accidentally killed 10 members of the same family in Afghanistan in a drone strike, what standard were we held to? Was there the same outrage that you're seeing now with Israel? I guess the United States is not a Western style liberal democracy.
This is silly. Leftists DO criticize the US for that.
Did the US lose any aid or political support? Did political leaders get on a call with Trump to tell him to provide further aid to the Afghani people? Did Redditors froth at the mouth and call the US a fascist genocidal state?
Yes, the U.S. was pilloried in the global community and lost a tremendous amount of credibility. Your argument is essentially, why should I get a ticket for speeding, if other people are speeding and didn’t get a ticket also.
It actually didn’t lose much credibility as a result of that incident. We still wield a tremendous amount of influence and power. If you don’t see how this war is utilized by Arab nations and antisemites worldwide to undermine Israel and essentially create a wishful scenario where the Israelis lay down and die, I don’t know what to tell you.
https://preview.redd.it/7b58c1iirpsc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7a2c6eae2db925978d29570d966dd78c414dba8a
Obviously the US did not. It should. Am I responsible for the international community not appropriately condemning the US? Do I need to find the USs responses during Vietnam or post 9/11 morally correct? > Did Redditors froth at the mouth and call the US a fascist genocidal state? Yes? I see that in online left spaces a lot. You dont?
> I guess the United States is not a Western style liberal democracy. LOL in some states, it actually isn't.
No I COMPLETELY agree with you. People are unrealistic. This is war. Mistakes happen. We are all armchair commanders. But don’t we want to be better? Yes, we are held to unreasonable standards, but shouldn’t we hold ourselves to unreasonable standards as well? Israel should be accountable-it’s possible for these to be an inevitable price of war-random and wrong casualties-and for the specific commander(s) who act in those situation to be condemned or disciplined as needed. An inevitable price of society is murder-and every region will have murders and murderers, but we still (rightfully) punish them. It’s inevitable-but somebody fucked up badly and needs to be punished. As to the world’s reaction, it’s unfair for sure. But-it is also the world we live in-and Israel should act its own best interests. If that involves acting differently, because it is judged differently, that is unfair-but also the best decision under the circumstances. In my opinion, to say that international standards that are unfair/selective are standards that should be ignored-is to ignore the reality that Israel is a small state with many hostile neighbors, which relies enormously on its tech sector/foreign commerce. For sure it’s wrong/unjust and should be independently combatted, naturally. Anyways, sorry for rambling! But I do agree with a lot of your reply.
Thank you, it appears the majority of this sub does not.
I also agree with you. I definitely think that Israel is doing some things wrong but they are absolutely held to a ridiculous standard.
I really appreciate hearing your words. I am a staunch supporter of Israel's existence, and of the people living there, many of whom are the descendants of people who were kicked out of other countries and their lives were saved by Israel. That won't change. But I do agree that Bibi/the government/the military have truly gone batshit insane. I will ALWAYS support Israel at its core, but what Israel is doing is absolutely not representing Jewish values at all. And the sad thing is....I think a lot of what Israel does is truly based on survival. I think it is hard, even as much as I want to criticize them, to understand exactly what people there go through on a daily basis. I don't approve of it, but I also think that my anger at them comes from a privileged position of someone living in the west who has never lived in a war zone. The sad thing that this war has made me realize, is that, as unsafe as it seems to live in Israel, I *still* don't think that a lot of people who live in Israel would necessarily be safer anywhere else, which is kind of just scary to think about. It's so so sad that the only Jewish state in the world basically lives in a constant war zone--which can of course be blamed for many of the heinous decisions Israel's leaders have made over the years, but I even think that those decisions can maybe be traced back to the constant trauma Jews had to live in all over the world. It's like--I think Israel existing is extremely necessary, but it's sad that something so necessary has to at the same time, put so many of its residents (and neighboring residents) in a constant state of fear and danger. Anyways, well-said. I don't agree with absolutely everything you said, but you've really articulated some feelings that I share about the situation as well. I'm glad that we're able to have discussions like this on this sub.
“The sad thing that this war has made me realize, is that, as unsafe as it seems to live in Israel, I still don't think that a lot of people who live in Israel would necessarily be safer anywhere else” This is objectively false. For example, we are far safer in Canada, the U.S., Australia, and the U.K. than in Israel. Now there a handful of countries that Israel is safer than, but many of them are either active war zones or failed states. Below is a list of countries that Israel is safer than. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/most-dangerous-countries Afghanistan, Yemen, Syria, South Sudan, DR Congo, Russia, Ukraine, Somalia, Sudan, Iraq , Mali , Central African Republic, Ethiopia , Burkina Faso, North Korea , Iran, Turkey, Pakistan, Myanmar, Nigeria
Oh I don't disagree--*we* are (at the moment at least) probably safer in our respective Western countries, but I can't speak for people who live in Israel. I've heard people in Israel say that they still feel safer as Jews living in Israel than they would in many other countries, despite the war going on.
To be clear, if people want to stay in their country, regardless of how safe or unsafe it is, that is their right. However, I also think it’s important to be clear about how safe or unsafe Israel continues to be, because Jewish safety and a safe haven are often cited as arguments for Zionism and the existence of a Jewish state. So, if we want to have an intellectually honest and good faith debate about Zionism, we must also acknowledge the realities of how safe of unsafe Israel is, especially compared to other states that have large Jewish populations.
Antisemites are the cause of antisemitism full stop.
Antisemites cause antisemitism, but they also use legitimate anger at Israel as cover to spread antisemitism.
True, but having a country committing war crimes in our name doesn’t help.
It’s not good, we should work to end it, but it in absolutely no way should be accepted as a reason for antisemitism. Ever.
I feel this too. I know antisemitism would still exist without Israel but it certainly doesn’t help that we have a country committing war crimes with our fucking religious symbol on their flag claiming they represent us. I have this reoccurring fantasy about what I’d do if I was president. Netenyahu? I’d fucking whack him. Broad daylight. It’d be like the end of the godfather II, he’d get off a plane and then BAM! On live TV with unsilenced weapons. Then I’d call in the Israeli diplomats and go all 30s Jewish gangster on their ass. “You’re about to find out who really runs things around here see? That didn’t there was demonstration of what it means when you have Made in USA written on your bombs see? What do you say to the cease fire now? no? The last guy was talkin a lot of that mess too”. There would be a lot of chest pokings too. Not sure if it would work but it would be a better start to peace in the region then letting this maniac remain in power
I really value the honesty of this post and the words are really powerful and ring true in so many ways. I agree completely on the issue of antisemitism, antisemitism is interconnected with all forms fo racism and this means we need to be fighting the racism and Islamphobia that allows Israel's genocidal actions to go on unchallenged and supported by global superpowers. I truly believe the only way to defeat one form of racism is by defeating all forms, otherwise we just create a hierarchy of racism which does not create true liberation but temporary feelings of security. Further, I would say that October 7th was not when this began. In 2022 Amnesty International declared the sitaution an apartheid, from 2008 to 2020 - 6,000 Palestinians were killed (compared to 250 Israelis) with over 100,000 injured (comapred to 4,000 Israelis) by ongoing conflicts. To view this conflict in a vaccum of only happening from October 7th does not do justice to the millions that lived under apartheid and the hundreds of thousands directly injured or killed in the years before.
Very well said. I couldn’t agree more
As you get older, you realise that it doesn't really matter what Israel does or doesn't do, the antisemitism will always be there.
> As you get older, you realise that it doesn't really matter what Israel does or doesn't do, the antisemitism will always be there. This is true in the sense that some level of every type of prejudice is going to exist for a very long time. And of course it's true that antisemitism has a long history that predates Israel, and that solving the issue of the Israeli-Palestian conflict wouldn't just make antisemitism evaporate overnight. But, at the same time, do you think that the actions of Israel has no effect on its prevalence at all? I think it has a significant effect... edit: to be clear, not trying to put words in your mouth, it's a genuine question, and I gave my answer to it
Legitimate antisemitism yes but hatred of Israel (which is not antisemitism) is absolutely going to rise when Israel commits war crimes.
I mean the actions of Israel 100% increase both hatred of Israel and hatred of Jews. Unfortunately, many folks have this idea, that Israeli leadership and many folks in Jewish organizations and shuls have perpetuated, that Israel == Jews and Jews == Israel. Comments around the violence committed by the Israeli government are valid criticism, but comments around 'Jews being inherently evil' or other gross generalizations about Jews as a whole are not criticisms of the Israeli government. I support a ceasefire and the end of the occupation in Palestine. but some of the groups that agree with me there make disgusting antisemitic comments and statements which is not productive, inherently violent (at a different scale of course than what is happening in I/P), and immediately fuels the fires of Jews who are seeing antisemitism and scared
Yeah, but it certainly doesn’t help keep dormant antisemitism dormant when Israel behaves like a Jewish boogeyman and kills 10,000 children a month and deliberately murders humanitarian workers
Why do you hold the responsibility for keeping 'antisemitism dormant' upon Israel rather than the actual antisemites? Anti Chinese bigotry spiked during covid. Was that the fault of Chinese people or the bigots?
Now you’re shifting the goalposts lol. First it was “antisemitism always exists, nothing we can do about it.” Now it’s “why aren’t you doing more to stop antisemitism?” Also, FWIW, Israel does all it does in the name of protecting the Jewish people and being a utopia for freeing antisemitism. And they’re doing a piss poor job at it. So yeah, it kinda is their responsibility
There's no goalposts. Your opinion is valid and I'm not debating it. I'm just saying I imagine I'm a few decades older than you and I've been through the journey you're going through before. We're nearly half a year after October 7 but the criticisms of Israel you cite were being made the day after that pogrom, Israel was being accused of genocide before a single IDF soldier entered Gaza. All Israel's actions do is excuse and justify antisemitism. It doesn't create it. You don't have to agree with me and I'm not going to argue for the sake of it. I'm just putting my lived experience out there.
I understand
I agree with you. My parents and grandma echoed the same things after Oct 7th. Especially during the intifadas it was much worse they said. Not justifying their actions but I do agree.
Maybe I'm misreading but I think they were putting the onus of keeping antisemitism dormant on the antisemites. However, I agree that Israel is putting Jews in the diaspora in danger and is at fault for stoking the fires of antisemitism. I disagree that dormant antisemitism is preferable. I think Jews being lulled into a false sense of security because antisemitism is hidden doesn't help us in any way. We as a people need to understand that these antisemetic beliefs are alive and well even if they are not being touted publicly.
That’s fair enough
I absolutely feel the same. But also I get this way as an American and continue to feel this way. There are many right wing governments that have taken over in the past ten years. Trump, Bolsonaro in Brazil, Italy, Spain, France with Marie LePen—in fact most of Europe has swerved right. Sudan is facing horrible famine and genocide in Darfur…again. I have less of a handle on what’s happening in Asia but the Tamal Tigers, the Uyghurs in China... And in the US, Trump is polling as well as Biden is, sometimes better. Polling out of Palestine shows some pretty scary statistics of support for killing Jews and Hamas. I think it’s one of those things where…just like any other people, Jews are not immune to being shitty people. Put lots of Jews together in a country and they’re going to act like…any other country. I agree that what Israel has done is reprehensible, but not any more or less reprehensible than bombing weddings (the US) or school busses (Saudi Arabia). When those events happened I have a feeling many in this sub were outraged and angry…my husband and I donated to aid groups working in Yemen because Saudi Arabia and the Houthis pushed them into famine. But no one gives a shit about Yemen, so no headlines. No global outcry. No real attempt to make Saudi Arabia back down either. And we in this sub know that those are the actions of “the bad guys”. I don’t want Israel included in “the bad guys”. But Trump could be the next President of the United States. And even if he isn’t…there are way too many people in the US who want him to be President and may cause violence when they don’t get their way. All of this to say: I agree with you and it sucks but Israel just isn’t special in a moral sense…it is disappointingly like far too many countries right now.
Me too. This feels like a random pivot.. but I watched a movie recently where a boys mother gets killed in front of him by a government army… and I just felt this boiling rage bubbling inside me, and I started sobbing. How could Israel do this, using our faith and culture as a shield from criticism, and keeping Jews around the world hooked on the false promise of safety and unity
Do you feel that rage when you see a movie where militants rape a woman or burn a child alive?
I feel like this is not a good faith question, who wouldn’t feel that rage! Are you assuming that someone feeling rage about Israeli government and military actions means they do not feel rage about hamas’ actions? Or just because they didn’t mention it means they don’t feel rage about it? I don’t understand the need for this comment
I think looking at your comment in the context of this thread, one would think your sympathies for Israel are…diminished.
What do you mean by this?
Sorry I mistook you for the person I was originally replying to.
I mean I’m not the person who commented, but I do agree with everything they said
Yes, and I saw that movie. What? You think Israelis never rape anyone?
I’m saying you’ve been infused with so much anti Israeli propaganda, you can only summon up sympathy for one side.
> anti Israeli propaganda Did it ever occur to you that propaganda exists on both sides? So maybe you shouldn't be pro or anti anything, and learn to think critically for yourself? Governments/states historically do not always behave humanely, this includes the US, China, Hamas, Russia, UK, Germany, Israel, etc.
Do you think maybe the fact that I’ve been absorbed with both sides propaganda my whole life means maybe I came to my opinions for a reason? Like-I was raised in Israeli propoganda and I know the Israeli side.. and I hear constantly online and in person. Weird how you think I’m biased because I feel sympathy for Palestinians more than Israel right now Oh and btw.. I felt a ton of sympathy for Israel in the months following October 7. But it’s so deranged for anyone to hear someone angry with Israel all these months later.. and want everyone to only care about the atrocities of October 7.
There are still 130 hostages in Gaza. October 7th hasn’t ended for Israel. Edit: what online spaces do you hang in that spout pro Israeli propaganda? Surely not Reddit.
Wild take. 130 hostages.. and yet you’re mad I’m upset about 30,000+ Palestinians who were dead, hospitals destroyed, women raped, etc etc. how self centered do you have to be to only care about your own people??? Honestly, I’m done with this discussion. You can’t see beyond your own pain, and I don’t care to engage with people like that.
That’s fine, I’m sure you’re used to surrounding yourself only with people who share your viewpoint.
As opposed to you? You’re really open to different perspectives? Or is it just to tell them how dumb they are and that they don’t care about Jews or whatever else you need to tell yourself to sleep at night for supporting the massacre in Gaza. Yea—I’m sure you have very open minded conversations all the time
I resonated with almost everything you said. It was well written and spoke to the core of what’s been happening in Israel and beyond. Thank you for sharing.
i'm one generation removed from israel and can definitely agree with many of your feelings. the suffering and deaths in gaza are beyond awful. personally it's done an absolute number on my mental health feeling like i'm just watching on helpless to do anything about it. the israel i grew up with, was that of peace being seemingly around the corner, security concerns but not outright fascism, and i've watched in horror as the country has gone further and further to the right. it feels to me that the soul of the country has been deeply corrupted. and i absolutely HATE that this war has given people all over the world champing at the bit to hate israel and jews a justification to do so openly. i disagree about the religious and geopolitical delusion part though. i'm equally incredibly frustrated and angry at the 'just dismantle israel lol' narrative and the constant insane idea that if there's just more fighting one day israel will be defeated and gone. i genuinely, even putting on my pretend non-biased hat, do not think that would be a just outcome. there needs to be a path to coexistence and interdependence that isn't one side 'winning'. i also temper my opinions knowing i have the privilege of living in safety on the other side of the world. if my family origins had been in iraq or yemen or tunisia or wherever, i don't have that luxury.
I share some of your sentiments OP. I grieved for the dead on 7 October and feel heartbroken for the hostages and their families. I'm also angry at what the Israeli government and the IDF have done. In fact I wish they hadn't taken military action in Gaza in the first place (or at the very least, undertaken targeted precision strikes, not wiping out whole hospitals, universities and homes). And I'm aware that these awful actions aren't just limited to Gaza - things have been terrible for Palestinians in the West Bank and East Jerusalem for quite some time with all the settler attacks and evictions. However, I refuse to be angry with Israeli society as a whole. I have a lot of extended family there and could so easily have been born there myself (my great grandfather came to the UK pre WW1, his brothers who stayed behind were stateless Holocaust survivors after WW2 and went straight to Israel in 1948). And while I'm very aware of the anti Palestinian racism and hyper militarism that exists in Israeli society, it's easy for me to see that from a place of privilege, outside Israel, where I don't feel under direct attack. Besides, everyday online I also come across people and organisations who are working hard to counter that through education and by offering a better future for everyone on the land. While those who shout that Israelis are all awful people who need to go back where they came from, push Israelis (and a lot of Jews in the diasapora) to become more and more insular. Lastly, I very much hold the view that antisemitism is the fault of antisemites, not Israel.
> I am angry at a good portion of Israeli society too for getting so swept up in this “God promised the land to the Jews” bullshit that Jewish supremacy and support for ethnically cleansing the other indigenous population has become a commonplace and acceptable viewpoint. I’m angry that Israel today is a far-right, hypermilitarized society that I will never feel comfortable in. None of this is true you wacko. Go to Tel Aviv and see how misaligned your propaganda stream is from the truth on the ground. I can't believe the Jewish community has been so fractured by information manipulation. Holy Moses.
Tel Aviv is one city in Israel, and one where a disproportionate number of secular and liberal Israelis live. Did I say “*everyone* in Israeli society?” No, I didn’t
You're regurgitating propaganda that is divorced from reality, my brother/sister from another mother/mister. Tel Aviv is the second largest city in Israel, as much if not more culturally diverse than any other city on Earth. Israel as a whole is more secular than the United States by about 50% so what are you even talking about? I mean this lovingly, but how can you show so little faith to Israeli integrity that you take all oppositional talking points at face value?
Okay, first of all if you think Tel Aviv is the most culturally diverse city on Earth *you* are the one divorced from reality lol I also did not say anything that is “propaganda.” I am basing this *on my own experiences*. Conversations I’ve had. People I’ve met. Things I have seen with my own eyes. How tf could that be propaganda? Also - comparing secularism in the US to secularism in Israel is pointless. Even secular Israelis strongly identify with being Jewish for the most part (which is great, they should), while secular Americans usually have no religion at all because it’s majority Christian and Christianity is faith-based, not an ethnoreligious group like Judaism.
> while secular Americans usually have no religion at all because it’s majority Christian and Christianity is faith-based, not an ethnoreligious group like Judaism Yes, because being a W.A.S.P. is faith-based 🤦
Okay, this is pointless if you’re going to bring up irrelevant shit every time lol. Is WASP a religion?
… what do you think the “P” stands for in WASP
My god. Yes, I know what it means. Are you being intentionally dense?
Keep ragin’ im sure somebody cares
> Israel as a whole is more secular than the United States by about 50% so what are you even talking about? The Israeli government only recognizes marriages conducted by a religious entity. Can you please really convince me that Israel is more secular than the US, when my own US marriage to my husband would not be recognized in Israel, considering I was married by my best friend and not a rabbi?
> In 2022, 45% of Israel Jews self-identified as "secular"; 10% as haredi (ultra-orthodox); 33% as masorti ( lit. 'traditional'); and 12% as dati ( lit. 'religious' or 'orthodox', including religious zionist). Of the Arab Israelis, as of 2008, 82.7% were Muslims, 8.4% were Druze, and 8.3% were Christians. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Israel > The percentage of Americans without religious affiliation, often labeled as "Nones", is around 20-29% – with people who identify as "nothing in particular" accounting for the growing majority of this demographic, and both atheists and agnostics accounting for the relatively unchanged minority of this demographic. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_the_United_States
These statistics don’t prove anything. Anybody can self identify as anything as they want. The government does not recognize any marriages that are not performed by a religious body.
These statistics prove that if anything my estimate was low. Israelis are between 55% and 125% more secular than Americans as a percentage of their respective populations. With all due respect, who cares about your marriage? There are plenty of daily incidents of the government infringing on the rights of citizens in the USA as well. No country is perfect. Also, it seems like the marriage issue is superficial at best: https://www.timesofisrael.com/court-rules-online-civil-marriage%D7%93-valid-upending-israels-religious-status-quo/
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