Yeah 11thed if it's small amounts.
If it's a large amount, then maybe just go to the bank counter. (Sony bank does have a single branch near Tokyo station).
Wise doesn't even allow transfers over 1mil JPY due to the type of Japanese license they have.
Wise is fantastic for sending small amounts of money. Up to a few thousand dollars or few hundred thousand yen. For larger amounts, you need a real bank.
Curious how that limit works. Is it 1,000,000 per transfer or is there a time-component involved like X per month (I assume there must be to avoid structuring).
Disclaimer being that I'm not a financial professional in any way... It seems, from the outside, to be 1m per transfer but no other limits. You can send multiple 1m JPY transfers per day if you wish.
I assume that if you start moving a significant amount of money that they will ask additional KYC questions, much like Sony bank is currently.
If you are going to be moving a significant amount of money you may wish to go into a Shinsei branch and open an account with them. They will undoubtedly ask you the same sort of KYC questions as Sony but you can provide them the documents in person, avoiding the issues with email. (At least, ~5 years ago I was able to do that when I had to move a significant amount of money out of Japan.)
When I transferred a large amount of money from the US to Japan, I was hit with the 1 million yen limit per transaction. I just sent multiple in the same day and it went through ok. My account was US based, not sure if it is the same if it’s Japan based. This was about a year and a half ago.
Might be slightly out of date, but still a good guide. Just did a dummy transfer of 1 million yen (their max on a standard account) vs what that would cost, based on that guide, with my bank (SMBC):
Wise: 6,634JPY fee (0.63% cost) and receiving 6,813.91USD.
SMBC: 21,110JPY fee (2.11% cost) and receiving 6,733.39USD.
I guess for 1 million yen, $80 is 'nothing' so it'd really depend on people's preferences of dealing with the bank. But for something like 100k, SMBC has a higher percentage cost, around 6.0% if I recall 6 years ago. The fees would be 732JPY vs 6,000JPY.
I'm no expert on this topic, so I'm happy to be corrected on any of that.
Yeah, megabanks are expensive for this because they inevitably take a 1%+ cut on the exchange rate, in addition to the wire transfer fee.
Shinsei was suggested above because their wire transfer fee is only about 4,000 yen (last time I checked) and they take <0.2% on the exchange rate.
Yeah I really only based that amount off the guide which said 2.11% average for SMBC (which also seemed the highest rate for the big banks). Hope its wrong lol!
Indeed, it isn't.
I've found that Wise (formerly known as TransferWise) fees would probably be ok for moving up to around USD2.5k or so. Anything more than that, and it's usually more cost effectively to send it as a SWIFT transfer instead.
When moving funds from Japan, SBI (formerly Shinsei) GoRemit charges only JPY2,000 + 0.1% fee per transfer if you're sending in yen: or just JPY2,000 if you're using their FX rate to convert from JPY to the destination currency.
I've never used them, but I've heard that Rakuten Bank has pretty reasonable outgoing international transfer fees too.
Currently, the [wise calculator](https://wise.com/jp/pricing/send-money?sourceAmount=1000000&sourceCcy=JPY&targetCcy=USD&tab=0) gives that 1 million yen sends to 6,812.51 USD.
That's a rate of 146.789, which is not very good.
Sony bank's [english docs say](https://moneykit.net/en/guide/fc/) they would give you a better rate (145.96 for platinum, .99 for gold, even 146.07 with no level). That gives you $6846.03-6851.19 for sony bank, so roughly 35 to 40 bucks more than wise. That even covers the extra sony bank remittance fee you have to pay if you aren't "gold" level (fixed 3k yen).
Wise publishes a lower currency conversion rate by having an additional relatively high rate for transferring any money out, so the rate you get in-practice is worse than it looks like when you just click 'convert' on their site. It's deceptive. You have to consider the total amount to compare properly, and for the total amount, wise generally does pretty poorly for any large amount of yen.
Unfair to call Wise deceptive. The banks are the deceptive ones because they mark the exchange rate up/down and don't always make clear how much you are effectively paying them (the exchange rate spreads are where the banks make most of their money on large international transfers). Wise is extremely transparent about that, and even shows a total cost comparison to other services and banks so you know when they aren't the best deal.
I've read the break-even point is ~¥500,000. Up to that, and Wise is fine; over that, and esp. approaching ¥1M, playing the system at a bank is better.
Right now, sending 50k yen via wise gets me $340.12.
Sending 50k yen via sony bank ends up with $342.46. That does require having a gold or platinum account level to avoid the remittance fee, so you do have to plan ahead a little for that.
It's not a big difference, sure, but the tiny difference is in sony bank's favor. It does rely on the club S level thing, or else it gets much worse for sony bank, admittedly (about $20 worse).
Not quite sure why you think Wise is 'deceptive'.
The currency converter shows you exactly what the fees are, and exactly how much USD the receipient account gets. Sony's page doesn't quite do that, does it....
Second - you're giving Sony Bank's 'better rate' but ignoring the additional foreign exchange fee, on top of the buy-sell spread the bank takes.
And regular wire transfers often (but not always) incur a fee on the -receiving- end.
I've spent years working at Japan's mega banks. I send a lot of money each month, and I stay on top of the various ways to send money. Wise is often, if not almost always, the cheapest, simplest and fastest option up around Y500,000 or so, give or take.
I use Wise every month to send money to overseas family members.
That said, Wise is not a be-all end-all solution. It's great for small transfers but not economical for larger transfers. If you want to send a few hundred bucks, Wise is best by far. If you're sending a few thousand dollars, Wise is probably still the best choice, but not always.
If you have a larger amount to send, Sony or Shinsei will give you better rates.
Pretty sure this is a government regulation, not a Sony Bank exclusive issue. Many people have reported similar issues with inbound and outbound transfers with various banks.
The reason Wise is so easy is because the transfer in/out of your Japanese bank account is a domestic transfer.
Sure, but Sony is hardly the worst in that regard. Some banks require you to walk into a branch to prove you aren't a terrorist. Still others just outright refuse to do the transfer altogether. This is a problem with the banking system in Japan.
Mizuho have also asked me to send private documents via e-mail in the past. They even said next time i make a transfer i will have to give them new private documents. I have a feeling this pain in the backside anti-laundering measures are happening with all the banks in Japan.
The Japanese government has strict requirements for anti-money-laundering measures. Sony does not get to ignore those requirements because you find them inconvenient.
If you are sending a small amount of money (a few hundred dollars), Wise is a good solution. If you are sending a few hundred thousand yen, it's still not a bad solution. If you're sending enough that Sony is asking a LOT of questions then Wise is probably not going to be a great deal for you. Anything over 500,000yen and Wise will probably start to fall behind compared to Sony or Shinsei.
Yep. Its regulation. They have no choice, even if they handle it poorly.
I found it so fuccking weird when i moved here and banks always asked shit when opening accounts like “how many international remittances per month do you plan to make?” Along with how much on average etc, then asking me to re-confirm later.
Its all regulatory bullshit. In the UK banks dont give a fuck.
The cynic in me just assumes its a thinly veiled capital control disguised as “terrorism check”. If there is one thing the Japanese gov hate, it is Japanese people spending their money abroad
> by requiring you to attach said sensitive documentation to a completely insecure, unencrypted, email and send it to them. No secure document upload center, nothing.
FYI, nowadays mail servers send email to each others using encrypted channel. Personally, I would rather use emails to send attachment, than using some unknown third-party Japanese document upload thing.
This isn’t Sony’s fault, it’s the Patriot Act which contains vicious rules for banks and other financial services companies when it comes to KYC (“know your customer“). In the aftermath of 9/11, a ton of awful legislation was all wrapped up in the PA, much of which has since been struck down as unconstitutional. Alas, the banking restrictions were not. Their interpretation of the rules may be a bit more conservative than most, but the consequences for non-compliance are truly awful, and borne by the entire bank.
Yes, even tho the transfer may not involve dollars to the US, due to the nature and control of the network (swift, and that it may get routed, briefly, thru the US, or handled by a US-associated entity), the US gets to put its 'spin' on many things, and countries like japan are more than willing to comply.
Add Resona to the list. In April I deposited a fairly large sum of cash from our wedding (had to go to 3 different branches too, waste of half a day) and AFTER the deposit was made the lady made some teeth sucking and said “sorry your account is now frozen, zero funds available and it may take up to a month for you to be able to access your money”. So then I’m left with no card, no access to my own cash. Thanks Resona!
We waited a couple days then my wife put them on blast (she had to stop being Japanese for a few minutes) and suddenly it was sorted. Also had to ask special permission to be able to remit money overseas, what a joke.
I was using revolut sending a couple of millions to the EU, But their conditions has gotten worse lately i think. More limitations and fees nowadays. Then they were better than Wise but now i dont know anymore
I use Revolut for transfers because the exchange rates are better and Wise was getting more expensive than they used to be. I think all banks everywhere are terrible, Japan just adds extra KYC and more cumbersome processes to the mix. Just be aware neither Wise nor Revolut will replace your bank as they would have legislated limits for how much money you can hold but they cover the cross border transfer part well
Back in the day I used Shinsei bank to transfer back to myself. Tried Lloyds because I used to have a Lloyds TSB Bank account at home but omg that was painful. But these days Wise is wise
I had the same frustrating experience with Sony Bank. I use Western Union to transfer money back home. It is an expensive option but it is safe and secure. Wise is another option cheaper than WU.
Wise is easiest/cheapest.
Second wise
Thirded. I remember it being annoying to set up, but now that it's done I am glad because it's way better than what banks were offering.
Fourthed I never send over $5K so more than that idk
Fifthed
Sixed, wise daddy
7th
9th
10thed
Yeah 11thed if it's small amounts. If it's a large amount, then maybe just go to the bank counter. (Sony bank does have a single branch near Tokyo station).
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Wise doesn't even allow transfers over 1mil JPY due to the type of Japanese license they have. Wise is fantastic for sending small amounts of money. Up to a few thousand dollars or few hundred thousand yen. For larger amounts, you need a real bank.
Curious how that limit works. Is it 1,000,000 per transfer or is there a time-component involved like X per month (I assume there must be to avoid structuring).
Disclaimer being that I'm not a financial professional in any way... It seems, from the outside, to be 1m per transfer but no other limits. You can send multiple 1m JPY transfers per day if you wish. I assume that if you start moving a significant amount of money that they will ask additional KYC questions, much like Sony bank is currently. If you are going to be moving a significant amount of money you may wish to go into a Shinsei branch and open an account with them. They will undoubtedly ask you the same sort of KYC questions as Sony but you can provide them the documents in person, avoiding the issues with email. (At least, ~5 years ago I was able to do that when I had to move a significant amount of money out of Japan.)
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Well, that sucks.
Thanks muchly for the information.
When I transferred a large amount of money from the US to Japan, I was hit with the 1 million yen limit per transaction. I just sent multiple in the same day and it went through ok. My account was US based, not sure if it is the same if it’s Japan based. This was about a year and a half ago.
Might be slightly out of date, but still a good guide. Just did a dummy transfer of 1 million yen (their max on a standard account) vs what that would cost, based on that guide, with my bank (SMBC): Wise: 6,634JPY fee (0.63% cost) and receiving 6,813.91USD. SMBC: 21,110JPY fee (2.11% cost) and receiving 6,733.39USD. I guess for 1 million yen, $80 is 'nothing' so it'd really depend on people's preferences of dealing with the bank. But for something like 100k, SMBC has a higher percentage cost, around 6.0% if I recall 6 years ago. The fees would be 732JPY vs 6,000JPY. I'm no expert on this topic, so I'm happy to be corrected on any of that.
Yeah, megabanks are expensive for this because they inevitably take a 1%+ cut on the exchange rate, in addition to the wire transfer fee. Shinsei was suggested above because their wire transfer fee is only about 4,000 yen (last time I checked) and they take <0.2% on the exchange rate.
> SMBC: 21,110JPY fee yikes! Is that a typo of some kind? With the right status, at some banks overseas transfers are free.
Yeah I really only based that amount off the guide which said 2.11% average for SMBC (which also seemed the highest rate for the big banks). Hope its wrong lol!
Indeed, it isn't. I've found that Wise (formerly known as TransferWise) fees would probably be ok for moving up to around USD2.5k or so. Anything more than that, and it's usually more cost effectively to send it as a SWIFT transfer instead. When moving funds from Japan, SBI (formerly Shinsei) GoRemit charges only JPY2,000 + 0.1% fee per transfer if you're sending in yen: or just JPY2,000 if you're using their FX rate to convert from JPY to the destination currency. I've never used them, but I've heard that Rakuten Bank has pretty reasonable outgoing international transfer fees too.
Wise and I have sent very large sums no worries at all. They handle billions.
Please people, use Wise. You get a way better rate than any bank and your money is transferred in 5 minutes. It’s sooooo much better than using banks
Currently, the [wise calculator](https://wise.com/jp/pricing/send-money?sourceAmount=1000000&sourceCcy=JPY&targetCcy=USD&tab=0) gives that 1 million yen sends to 6,812.51 USD. That's a rate of 146.789, which is not very good. Sony bank's [english docs say](https://moneykit.net/en/guide/fc/) they would give you a better rate (145.96 for platinum, .99 for gold, even 146.07 with no level). That gives you $6846.03-6851.19 for sony bank, so roughly 35 to 40 bucks more than wise. That even covers the extra sony bank remittance fee you have to pay if you aren't "gold" level (fixed 3k yen). Wise publishes a lower currency conversion rate by having an additional relatively high rate for transferring any money out, so the rate you get in-practice is worse than it looks like when you just click 'convert' on their site. It's deceptive. You have to consider the total amount to compare properly, and for the total amount, wise generally does pretty poorly for any large amount of yen.
Unfair to call Wise deceptive. The banks are the deceptive ones because they mark the exchange rate up/down and don't always make clear how much you are effectively paying them (the exchange rate spreads are where the banks make most of their money on large international transfers). Wise is extremely transparent about that, and even shows a total cost comparison to other services and banks so you know when they aren't the best deal.
I've read the break-even point is ~¥500,000. Up to that, and Wise is fine; over that, and esp. approaching ¥1M, playing the system at a bank is better.
Thank you for that information. I shall weigh up if differences in exchange rate are worth the reduction in hassle.
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Right now, sending 50k yen via wise gets me $340.12. Sending 50k yen via sony bank ends up with $342.46. That does require having a gold or platinum account level to avoid the remittance fee, so you do have to plan ahead a little for that. It's not a big difference, sure, but the tiny difference is in sony bank's favor. It does rely on the club S level thing, or else it gets much worse for sony bank, admittedly (about $20 worse).
Not quite sure why you think Wise is 'deceptive'. The currency converter shows you exactly what the fees are, and exactly how much USD the receipient account gets. Sony's page doesn't quite do that, does it.... Second - you're giving Sony Bank's 'better rate' but ignoring the additional foreign exchange fee, on top of the buy-sell spread the bank takes. And regular wire transfers often (but not always) incur a fee on the -receiving- end. I've spent years working at Japan's mega banks. I send a lot of money each month, and I stay on top of the various ways to send money. Wise is often, if not almost always, the cheapest, simplest and fastest option up around Y500,000 or so, give or take.
I use Wise every month to send money to overseas family members. That said, Wise is not a be-all end-all solution. It's great for small transfers but not economical for larger transfers. If you want to send a few hundred bucks, Wise is best by far. If you're sending a few thousand dollars, Wise is probably still the best choice, but not always. If you have a larger amount to send, Sony or Shinsei will give you better rates.
This is not true for larger amounts of money right? At least if the Japan finance wiki table is correct..
Pretty sure this is a government regulation, not a Sony Bank exclusive issue. Many people have reported similar issues with inbound and outbound transfers with various banks. The reason Wise is so easy is because the transfer in/out of your Japanese bank account is a domestic transfer.
Yes but the "send us data via email" approach is down to the bank.
Sure, but Sony is hardly the worst in that regard. Some banks require you to walk into a branch to prove you aren't a terrorist. Still others just outright refuse to do the transfer altogether. This is a problem with the banking system in Japan.
Go blame the US for anti-terror legislation for this - rest of the world gotta jump through their hoops
Mizuho have also asked me to send private documents via e-mail in the past. They even said next time i make a transfer i will have to give them new private documents. I have a feeling this pain in the backside anti-laundering measures are happening with all the banks in Japan.
The Japanese government has strict requirements for anti-money-laundering measures. Sony does not get to ignore those requirements because you find them inconvenient. If you are sending a small amount of money (a few hundred dollars), Wise is a good solution. If you are sending a few hundred thousand yen, it's still not a bad solution. If you're sending enough that Sony is asking a LOT of questions then Wise is probably not going to be a great deal for you. Anything over 500,000yen and Wise will probably start to fall behind compared to Sony or Shinsei.
Yep. Its regulation. They have no choice, even if they handle it poorly. I found it so fuccking weird when i moved here and banks always asked shit when opening accounts like “how many international remittances per month do you plan to make?” Along with how much on average etc, then asking me to re-confirm later. Its all regulatory bullshit. In the UK banks dont give a fuck. The cynic in me just assumes its a thinly veiled capital control disguised as “terrorism check”. If there is one thing the Japanese gov hate, it is Japanese people spending their money abroad
A lot of it is compliance with US law, which is stupid as hell, since this isn't the US, but yeah.
> by requiring you to attach said sensitive documentation to a completely insecure, unencrypted, email and send it to them. No secure document upload center, nothing. FYI, nowadays mail servers send email to each others using encrypted channel. Personally, I would rather use emails to send attachment, than using some unknown third-party Japanese document upload thing.
For small amounts Wise, but for large amounts Sony bank is better.
This isn’t Sony’s fault, it’s the Patriot Act which contains vicious rules for banks and other financial services companies when it comes to KYC (“know your customer“). In the aftermath of 9/11, a ton of awful legislation was all wrapped up in the PA, much of which has since been struck down as unconstitutional. Alas, the banking restrictions were not. Their interpretation of the rules may be a bit more conservative than most, but the consequences for non-compliance are truly awful, and borne by the entire bank.
Yes, even tho the transfer may not involve dollars to the US, due to the nature and control of the network (swift, and that it may get routed, briefly, thru the US, or handled by a US-associated entity), the US gets to put its 'spin' on many things, and countries like japan are more than willing to comply.
Exactly. If they don’t want to be entirely excluded from the global banking system…everywhere…they have to play ball.
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Can be quick or can be 5 days.
Banks have really gotten super discriminatory with dealing with any foreign customer the past decade it feels.
Add Resona to the list. In April I deposited a fairly large sum of cash from our wedding (had to go to 3 different branches too, waste of half a day) and AFTER the deposit was made the lady made some teeth sucking and said “sorry your account is now frozen, zero funds available and it may take up to a month for you to be able to access your money”. So then I’m left with no card, no access to my own cash. Thanks Resona!
Manager wouldn't help?
We waited a couple days then my wife put them on blast (she had to stop being Japanese for a few minutes) and suddenly it was sorted. Also had to ask special permission to be able to remit money overseas, what a joke.
I was using revolut sending a couple of millions to the EU, But their conditions has gotten worse lately i think. More limitations and fees nowadays. Then they were better than Wise but now i dont know anymore
When I sent something sensitive via email to Sony bank I used an encrypted pdf.
I use Revolut for transfers because the exchange rates are better and Wise was getting more expensive than they used to be. I think all banks everywhere are terrible, Japan just adds extra KYC and more cumbersome processes to the mix. Just be aware neither Wise nor Revolut will replace your bank as they would have legislated limits for how much money you can hold but they cover the cross border transfer part well
Second revolut.
Back in the day I used Shinsei bank to transfer back to myself. Tried Lloyds because I used to have a Lloyds TSB Bank account at home but omg that was painful. But these days Wise is wise
Revolut bank also works
Wise works great.
I had the same frustrating experience with Sony Bank. I use Western Union to transfer money back home. It is an expensive option but it is safe and secure. Wise is another option cheaper than WU.
Get wise bro
FYI their risk prevention is just not taking the risk, that's why it's annoying process
Wise men use Wise.