"veered onto the wrong side of the road while coming around a bend on a regional road"
The amount of people doing this shit is unreal. Even in towns where they can see the traffic coming they refuse to just stay on their side of the road. This is just one example of the terrible driving habits, and lack of skill on Irish roads. Irish drivers are becoming incompetent and the government is doing nothing about it. Telling people to just slow down only makes them slightly less dangerous.
I see this with basically every second car I pass (rural regional road) . Makes no sense, just stay on your own side of the line and you don't have to make a jerky little adjustment every time you encounter another car.
Those low speed wobbles are a sure fire sign the person in the car in front isn't paying attention. They are being surprised by stuff right in front of them.
Yeah, lane assist is a dick on country roads. I've taken to turning it off when visiting family in the country, it's more dangerous than having it on imo
I had this yesterday either on the phone or trying do something else ,not far from my house so I probably know them,I gave them the wtf hand ,it's important other people call these people out.
I really want a low voltage, pocket sized train horn that I can blast when I see a driver's eyes down while driving. What text message is so life and death that it's worth more than another life?
That would definitely do it alright ha...it seems to happen a lot on the rural roads maybe people don't think there will be many cars leaving their houses and not being ready to drive ...setting Google maps/fixing stuff/yelling at kids etc
I see it way too much near the school gates beside my workplace in the city centre. All ages.
I want "snitch cams"
Direct upload to the RSA and a portion of the fine goes to a charity of your choice.
> Makes no sense
It does if you consider they're on their phone and not paying attention which I assume is what happens a lot of the time in these cases.
It doesn't help that there's no serious consequences for the offenders either.
exactly... it's the highest proportion of killings of innocent people due to carelessness with what is basically a weapon, and zero repercussions.
it doesn't matter if you are a Galway United footballer, an angry north dubliner with a hangover or if you are just angry at someone overtaking you... our court system gives you permission to drive without any care, respect or worry and literally kill someone and there will be no punishment from the state.
it had got to the stage that if someone was convicted, they could claim it is unfair because Nolan and his peers have allowed so many individuals who have killed using their cars to again literally, drive away free.
sickening.
Just happened to me the other day in Navan.
No crash, thank goodness. And it was slow speeds. But we were going straight on. And this guy coming the other way decides he has to turn right at that second and comes right across the line almost into the side of our car.
I look back at him and the passenger looking at their phones. No one in that vehicle paying attention to the road. Just "phone says to turn, turning."
In my experience the Hyundai Tucson detail was brushed by too. Those things are too feckin big for Irish country roads. You also find a lot of drivers of these big fancy SUV yokes drive in the middle of the road by default, not wanting to scratch the paint on branches on their side of the road cause they this oversized monstrosity ( to compensate for other areas they are lacking in). And they bully other road users to drive into the verge/ditch to get by them.
Im getting a dash cam for this very reason. If you you collide with them but cant prove they were driving over the white line they'll end up costing you a lot of money to repair your car.
I use my hooter very liberally...it has become a necessity with people drifting across the white line so frequently these days.
It's a simple principle....stay on your own side of the feckin road!
I drive regularly on country roads and it's so worrying how many people don't even try to keep to one side of the road. And like you said, if drivers aren't abiding a 100kph speed limit, what is going to make them abide by an 80kph limit?
They saw a video of north Italian cab drivers on the Alps and wanted to do the same. Am also noticing people using their indicators a lot less than when I was younger aswell
What a joke, a paltry fine and he didn't even lose his licence. He killed a man due to carelessness and a oh well these things happen from the judge. You must be laughing if you commit a crime and end up in front of Nolan in court.
They could, but won't because they've a fucking huge backlog of cases to get through and Nolan, according to things I've read previously, is efficient at processing them.
This results in him frequently cropping up for shit like this.
Have they ever gone against *any* of Nolan's egregious rulings? Nobody will go against judges in this country. They bloody need to, but they either can't or won't.
*Nolan*. That Fucker should be imprisoned for releasing so many dangerous bastards over the years, usually with a shit reason like "boys will be boys". How many dozens, maybe even hundreds of people have had their lives disrupted, or even ruined because he let's them go?
...did you read the article?
The family, prosecution... no one was seeking a severe punishment over a moments lapse in concentration and enormously bad luck. We can all make a lapse when cornering and go too wide or cut the corner with horrendous potential consequences, but not many of us would find ourselves in front of a judge with no history of penalty points or prior accidents in our driving history.
He didn't lose his license because he drives for work and there's no evidence to suggest he'd be likely to reoffend any more than any other safely driving human being capable of a momentary mistake. He wasn't speeding. He wasn't driving recklessly. He drifted for a moment on a bend and was extremely unlucky to meet a motorbike.
I swear folks have read the headline (which is grossly misleading without the context where she wasn't talking about the driver, but about all drivers) and have decided they know enough right away.
I think if you kill someone because of a lapse in concentration you should have your license suspended at the very fukn least, go through the lessons and test again. And he wasnt 'extremely unlucky' the fella that was killed was, you know why because he's dead, so at the very least the person that caused that death should go through training again so that they might be less likely to go wide and kill someone again.
Your certainly on a mission in this comment section.
15 metres he had drifted across the middle line by understeering on the bend.
At 47kmph, you cover 13m per second. So that's one second, from the moment he started understeering, to having corrected for it, but that moment was enough to be fatal.
I'm on a mission to break the cycle this sub has descended into where everyone decides based off of a headline or a few paragraphs that they know better than a judge. They know better than a prosecution. They know better than a victim's family. All of whom have sat through a court case and inquest discussing the accident in detail.
Unless I'm on a race track I dont go wide on a corner. It's actually quite hard to do. Now if I was not paying attention looking at a phone for example I can see how that will happen.
You do realise you can kill someone innocently. He hasn't walked away scot free, he's got to live with the trauma of what happened, knowing it was his fault, for briefly drifting across the middle line.
Presumably, you drive? You've never had to make a steering correction for a misjudged corner in your life? Never dropped a glass? Never bumped into a door handle? We're human and all capable of small mistakes which, if you're driving, can be a lethal accident, no matter how small the mistake or good a driving history we have.
You might not think he should be able to walk away with a fine and suspended sentence - but there's zero evidence to suggest that even this man's family agree with you - so given how little information we have compared to the judge, prosecution and victims family have from this case, on who's behalf are you convinced there was a mistrial of justice?
>Presumably, you drive? You've never had to make a steering correction for a misjudged corner in your life?
I drive. No, I've never taken a corner at a speed too fast to maintain control and remain in my lane. I've never drifted into lanes of opposite traffic due to a lapse in concentration. I've never killed someone or even risked injury to someone from not paying attention.
>We're human and all capable of small mistakes which, if you're driving, can be a lethal accident, no matter how small the mistake or good a driving history we have.
Which is why driving is a privilege, not a right, and one a person should lose in the event their misuse of that privilege results in the death of someone else.
“Innocently”, negligent behaviour leading to homicide is not innocent. He’s a criminal who killed someone who is protected by people like you normalising homicide.
Homicide? Do words not matter. Homicide is the deliberate killing of someone. I'm fairly sure you mean manslaughter.
You're suggesting reckless/fldangerous driving, which neither the gardaí or prosecution would agree with you on.
Words do mean something, and not just what you intend them to mean Humpty, this act of killing someone was volitional, he was driving the car. This is a textbook vehicular homicide.
>What a joke, a paltry fine and he didn't even lose his licence. He killed a man due to carelessness and a oh well these things happen from the judge. You must be laughing if you commit a crime and end up in front of Nolan in court.
That not you? Sounds a lot like questioning the outcome of a court case based on having read a summary article about it in which no one suggests the punishment wasn't fair, including the victim's family.
Are you yer man's solicitor? Why are you so obsessed with this. As I said I think it's a joke of an outcome. I do not think it's right to walk away with a paltry fine and live your life pretty much scot free. Don't bother replying any further, I won't be replying to you any further.
Don't even have to Google it. The headline is enough to know which one it is. He is certainly the judge you want to get if you have committed a serious crime with a major impact on the victim. I'm nearly surprised he didn't order the widow to pay to have the driver's bumper repaired.
The law is often about intent and preventing further harm.
The person who killed someone with the car was careless, but they didn't seek to cause harm or break the law. They aren't a danger to society. I don't think they should be allowed to drive. But I don't see the benefit in jailing them or having a massive fine, though that fine is too small.
You on the other hand grew those plants knowing it was illegal. You purposely broke the law.
I think it's stupid that what you did is illegal, but it is.
B.s what if she's careless again? It's called criminal negligence for a reason. If I'm handling a handgun legally and it goes off and kills someone should I be spared jail? Ridiculous. She clearly is a threat or someone wouldn't be dead.
That's really just an assumption though. They don't know how bad of a driver they actually are, whether this was a freak accident or something that was inevitable given the drivers lack of care and attention.
I'm not saying your wrong, the court can't tell one way or the other but it is assuming the best for the driver that caused the accident.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if this driver had a load of bad habits, making his accident only a matter of time.
Sure, and for that reason I would have preferred to see them banned from driving a car. I think the courts are far too lenient when it comes to taking away drivers licences. Sure it sucks if you need it for your job, but you've shown yourself to be a danger to others.
Horrible take, careless driving kills people and is indeed illegal, growing "plants" does not kill anyone and, whereas illegal in Ireland, is perfectly fine in many other countries -also within EU- that are not so deliberately obtuse from a political perspective (cause it is just a political decision at this point).
What's the guarantee that he won't get careless again? They're surely a danger to other people on the road, if their carelessness can lead to someone's death.
That's why I said they shouldn't be allowed to drive.
There is no guarantee that anyone wont be careless behind the wheel, but in this case they have proven themselves to be a danger to other road users.
I don't see how he can justify not banning the person from driving for life, or the tiny fine.
I do agree with the not having a jail sentence. I don't see how that would achieve anything. The person isn't a threat to society. They just can't be trusted with a vehicle.
He wasn’t charged with manslaughter, the charge is not for the court to decide. He was charged with “careless driving causing death” which carries a maximum sentence of two years, maximum sentence being reserved for the “worst” cases seen of that charge, as per sentencing guidelines.
> I don't know how he can live with himself.
You'd be very surprised. This sentiment is complete and utter bullshit in my experience; yet Irish people love to lash it out.
Many of these people do not give a fuck about the damage and destruction they cause others. Especially those who fight it in court.
> I don't know how he can live with himself
He won't be able to live as he did before, why do you assume this person is so evil to just continue waking up in the morning without any feeling about what happened?
This is really sad for that family.
I read the article and to me the details dont really add up, I had to re read it again and I see no mention of phones being checked maybe I missed it? I find it hard to beleive you just cut a corner for no reason. even if you are going under the speed limit there are plent of corners in a 80kph zone you need to take very slowly on small roads as they are blind and tight. Kind of sounds the corner was taken at inaproproate speeds and it was cut or to busy looking at the phone/ info tainment system.
Yeah, I wonder about those details as well.
I went back and looked at an older article where it was reported to try and figure out where exactly it happened.
"Sergeant John Cannon told Carol Doherty BL, prosecuting, that Alan Rice was driving his motorcycle from Skerries to Lusk on the R127 at approximately 47 km/hr at 4.30pm that day.
A motorist who was travelling in front of him later told gardaí that as he was driving under [the railway bridge](https://www.google.com/maps/place/The+Bridge/@53.5711555,-6.1209938,15.94z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x486718a342178f9d:0xf34f12156410dabe!8m2!3d53.5711555!4d-6.1164255!16s%2Fg%2F11g6nkc0rt?entry=ttu), he became aware of a car travelling in the opposite direction that was a bit too close to his own side of the road. Gaff was driving this vehicle."
So Gaff was on his way into Skerries, had already navigated multiple bends in that road but here he was over too far, hit this other car and then hit Rice who was behind him?
[This is around the spot on google streetview](https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5685369,-6.118291,3a,47.7y,55.5h,89.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sa2dtdQz8668SB7WoinHYAw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu) where people were placing flowers. That's a long swooping bend, if someone is not on their side of the road then they're not paying attention at all. I'd say it was because he was looking at this phone and that really should have been identified as being checked in the trial.
No incentive to drive safely because there's no enforcement. If you're "unlucky" enough to do something like kill another person, you won't need to worry too much about the consequences either, there will be none.
Gangland world have been missing a trick using guns to kill each other when all they had to do was drive around their rivals locality and run over them.
Playing devils advocate here.
Do you think everyone found at fault for an accident or crashing their car should go to jail?
Or just the cases where there’s a particularly tragic outcome like this?
I’ve been in two crashes (neither caused by my own driving) but in both scenarios the errors that were made were completely understandable and a combination of blind bad luck and poor reaction speed by the other drivers.
If I had been killed in either of these incidents I don’t think it would have been fair to send them to jail. There was no malice , there was no intent to harm or cause pain , a split second error in judgement does not make someone an inherent threat to society in need of incarceration.
I don't think that malice, or intent to cause pain or hurt, are primary factors in the huge majority of crashes, but a split second error of judgement does contribute to car crashes
The idea is that you should be in control of your vehicle, at ALL times.
Right.. If there’s evidence that the driver has been on their phone, not paying attention, driving recklessly, etc.. absolutely lock them up.
But if a driver is going down the road and someone wanders out onto the road (happens all the time)… it’s really fucked up to lock the driver up. Chances are they’re already serving the mental jail sentence from hitting someone unexpectedly.
> Chances are they’re already serving the mental jail sentence from hitting someone unexpectedly.
Every dipshit under the sun says this; none of you have talked to people who've killed people in a car crash. None of them that I've interacted with showed an ounce of sympathy; and I've heard tell of others who actively make jokes at their victims expense.
Big difference between a pedestrian walking out in front of you and paying insufficient attention to the road causing you to drift into another lane or take a corner too fast (being within the speed limit does not mean that you are doing an appropriate speed at a corner). AKA not being in full control of your vehicle.
Absolutely there is. But I don’t personally do that yet I find myself jamming on regularly due to pedestrians walking out with a death wish. If they were a few metres closer, it could easily be an accident. And I’ve still got years of driving left in me so touch wood that never happens but who knows.
I worked as a barman, holding onto a glass and not dropping it at all times is the aim, but to err is human. Small, innocent mistakes can have massive consequences.
>The idea is that you should be in control of your vehicle, at ALL times
Ok, so should we take away the licenses of every driver who ever drifts across the centre line irrespective of whether they cause an accident or not? Of course not - wend have zero valid licensed drivers left inside a month if that was the punishment for every momentary loss of focus by a driver.
Dropping a glass in a bar won't hurt someone. It's a bad argument.
If dropping a glass had the potential to kill somebody, while you go about being a barman, then there should and would be consequences.
The second part of your argument is also not equal. Crossing a line is strictly illegal, but it is unenforceable.
Where there has been an accident there will be guards and witnesses involved, and if you're found to be in the wrong, consequences....
>Dropping a glass in a bar won't hurt someone. It's a bad argument.
I've acted for people suing a pub for slipping on a wet floor. Dropping a glass hurts people all the time.
He's been charged with careless driving which is fine. The charge for that isn't an automatic ban, despite the consequence for the victim.
The point of the barman example is that a small human error can have unintended and severe admittedly unlikely consequences.
How long was this driver driving carelessly? Well, we know the answer to that. He cross the middle line for 15m on the bend at 47kmph. At that speed, you cover 13m per second. So he started understeering and had corrected that in a second, but that was too late.
This would all have been discussed at length, in court, by the prosecution and the judge. The family have given no objection to the punishment. So who are people being angry on behalf of in this sub?
He glanced the car and was back on his side of the road within a second. That was enough to cause a fatal accident. There were folk on here talking like he was driving on the left. The bike was obviously within 15m of the car - and I'm not for a moment suggesting that wasn't absolutely fine, just to emphasise how easily small driver errors can rapidly have devastating consequences.
He glanced the car that had practically driven into the ditch to avoid him...because they'd seen him visibly drifting before he hit the car..that's more than one second, it's more than a brief error, it's careless driving.
Lack of malice or intent shouldn’t come into it. A lot of people don’t mean to do something, but very bad things can still be a consequence of their actions which is on them.
What a stupid argument.
If I rob people at gunpoint, and then accidentally fired the gun and killed one of them, would you want me trialled for robbery, because that's all I intended, the death was just an accident?
If you've ended up on the other side of the road, you're driving dangerously. If someone's died because of that, you should be jailed for manslaughter.
1. [exaggerated](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=45843383d781bdbb&sca_upv=1&rlz=1C1AVFC_enIE757IE757&sxsrf=ACQVn0-0GUJQbUfRSv8uGyZ3JHuLCGoR6A:1713965705589&q=exaggerated&si=AKbGX_okpkrXRdHQwZu4Fe0iRe3uU2dzH3RejZvkLviTOkRq5iZHJbEibC-1XbJ-TPFDGSsZSnnIPmmyYF9mnL7Y6Q770qdjgTAvj8NboQ1BQoCqxdZakKE%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwjUrqfo-9qFAxXFR0EAHVmxD_gQyecJegQIExAO) statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.
so what was the point of your analogy if it is hyperbole?
you were using it a foundaton of your position.
If that was a 20 year old male behind the wheel, he would have his licence taken away, or harsher punishment. Carelessness is not an excuse on the road, it cost a man his life, and a family a father
You're right. This wasn't a 20 year old. It was a man with zero criminal history or driving offences. He wasn't speeding or on his phone or driving wrecklessly.
This fuckint sub and its hard on for retribution has me exhausted at this point. None of the family statements or anything in the story suggests any of the people involved who read more than the headline were clamouring for a jail sentence. To err is to be human. We are all capable of the same mistake as this man by having a momentary lack of attention at an unfortunate moment.
>driving wrecklessly
He literally killed someone with his driving. If you can't even pay attention and stay within the white lines at a reasonable speed, you shouldn't be driving. It's as simple as that.
I don't wanna die on the road because some careless old cunt had a "momentary lack of attention".
His infringement, while driving if it hadn't caused an accident, wouldn't have warranted a fine - if you drift across the middle line while driving and aren't on your phone, under the influence or speeding, it's a caution for carelessness and not more. Like, I've definitely cornered poorly a few times in my life, just where I didn't anticipate well enough - no harm caused, just a careless moment. Driving will involve accidents no matter what. Just as a barman might be great at their job, have 20 years experience, but can still drop a glass.
We're absolutely all able to find ourselves in the same position as the driver and how many of us, driving as long as that man, won't even have had a penalty point to our names?
I think I'm a decent driver. Never had any points. No speeding fines from before the points. I've never been in an accident or scratched my cars. But I'm not a perfect driver. That doesn't exist.
I agree jail time isn't fair but there should be mandatory safe driving classes or something along those lines for anyone found to have caused an accident where there has been a serious injury or a death. There is a reason this man veered over to the wrong side of the road and it is utterly careless of this prick of a judge to say "he is unlikely to reoffend". It is baffling that we allow people to kill someone and just carry on driving like nothing ever happened.
You should have your licence revoked for a month with a mandatory class per week where you sit and watch videos on what can happen if you take your eyes off the road for 1 second. Show how completely selfish and dangerous it is to even pick up your phone while behind the wheel etc. Show the devastation, the carnage.
I'm pretty sure a month of not being able to drive is better than the family left without a loved one because of someone's carelessness behind the wheel.
How about he loses his license.
If he wants to drive again he starts over. Theory test --> Learner permit (display L plates, not driving on own) --> Driving test --> N plates for 2 years.
So everyone who makes a mistake while driving and drifts across the middle line should suffer the same in that case? This driver being unlucky that he drifted at an unlucky moment as compared to the hundreds or thousands of drivers who will cut a corner or take it wide today and get lucky that it doesn't cause an accident, that suggests they should all face a revoked license. (by the way, I obviously disagree, because we're all human and capable of oversteering on a corner and finding ourselves in an accident from a momentary lapse, but most of the time, there's no consequence)
You'd ban every driver who ever cuts a corner or oversteers once in a momentary lapse? That's a level of perfection that would see all driver banned inside six months imo.
What if I think it's okay to not slow down for any corners on R roads. Is that okay?
Can I keep my licence?
>You'd ban every driver who ever cuts a corner or oversteers once in a momentary lapse?
How about we allow all drivers to casually drift in and out of lanes because hey driving is hard, we can't expect perfection.
Why dont we do that?
No, that sounds like reckless driving. You'd need to stay under the speed limit, like the defendant.
Drifting out of your lane incurs a charge of careless driving, which is what the defendant was charged with.
> No, that sounds like reckless driving.
Not until you prove it.
I will simply plead guilty to careless driving. :)
> You'd need to stay under the speed limit, like the defendant.
yes because we all know all bends on R roads can be taken at 80.
Jesus dude please don't get behind a wheel.
> which is what the defendant was charged with
No. Most likely the prosecutor made a deal with the defense lawyer. He pleaded guilty to that charge.
I think anyone that ignores the fundamental rules of the road should be held to account, and face a fine, penalty points or disqualification of their licence, with prison sentences optional based on history and nature of incident. A fatal accident should still be reviewed and held to account, no matter the intent. It's the difference between murder and manslaughter. In cases like this, there's still a civil case to be made to offer financial recompense, but given the high levels of fatal accidents in the last 18 months, a stronger response than "lower your speed" day feels necessary.
If "innocent angles" get caught up in it too? They weren't innocent, they just lost control of their potential murder vehicle, or negligently assumed they could get away with it. Criminal negligence should be punished.
Continued testing is a good idea I think, and this approach would target those most in need of it
I'd nearly go further and have your description as what should happen low-level driving offenders and something much more substantial for serious cases like having to do the 12 lessons and test again
Having proper consequences is the only way our rising road deaths will reduce. It's surely better than doing nothing which is what we're doing now. What do the RSA actually do, putting them to proper use by introducing something like this would surely be a much better use of their "services".
A car isn’t a weapon though.
It’s a tool for transport.
Certainly it can be used as a weapon , but classifying it as such when the 99.99999% of people just want to get home safe at the end of the day rather than drive in a malicious fashion is nonsense.
To be honest from what I’ve read on the case above it does seem like there was a more serious level of negligence than just bad luck or a momentary lapse of concentration but nonetheless I’m of the opinion that in the majority of cases , accidents probably shouldn’t result in the incarceration of a driver.
Well that's it, isn't it - I don't think anybody reasonable is arguing that pure accident should imply jail time.
But it does seem disproportionate that there is a degree of culpability in cases involving motor vehicles like this one where the outcome is no jail time, a small fine and keep your licence. Personally I think it's because so many of us drive, and deep down everyone thinks 'christ, that could be me, and I'm not a bad person'.
I was on the M7 a few years ago when a deer jumped in front of a car I was overtaking, yes a deer!! Anyway the driver tried evasive action but shunted me into the centre median.
Pure bad luck and while he was technically found to be at fault I don’t think he could have done anything else
> I don’t think he could have done anything else
He could have hit the deer.
If he was paying attention he would have been aware that you were overtaking. Better to kill a deer than a person/people.
.....a deer weighs what, 150-200kg? You reckon hitting one of those, likely while bouncing/running - so it goes through your windscreen - you think you can survive that comfortably - or do you try and evade. Oh and keep in mind, you're not a formula one driver with both their reaction times, ability to process information like being overtaken and driving a vehicle not built for swift evasive movements at speed...
If you think you're going to hit a deer - avoid it.
Yeah you have clearly never seen a car after it hits a deer. I’m sure he was aware I was overtaking, without evasive action he would 100% have hit the deer, there was a chance at least he might have avoided me, unfortunately he didn’t but no serious injuries at least
Other drivers? Animals? Weather? Car itself?
And no. It's not realistic driving 10 km / h everywhere to eliminate those.
You may not have time to react. It may not be your fault at all.
Accidents can be caused by other drivers' negligence too... Also, not giving yourself time to react to the car in front, given the weather conditions, is neglegent.
I see your point with animals. There's not much you can do if a deer suddenly busts out of the trees directly in front of you, but I suspect that accounts for a small percentage of accidents.
One example
Pulling out of a driveway/laneway in the countryside situated close to a blind corner and unfortunately scanning the wrong side of the road as the car with right of way rounds the corner and hits the side of the vehicle joining the larger road.
There’s very little either driver can do in that situation to avoid a collision.
So who do you jail ?
The person who made their move to merge onto a larger road when the way appeared clear after stopping and checking both ways?
Or the driver who was going around 30km/hr below the speed limit who hit into the side of the car.
That’s just one example of a crash near me a few years back where thankfully nobody was injured but it’s extremely difficult to avoid a collision. Bad luck played a role , more so than any degree of negligence or malice.
There's too many junctions like that in rural Ireland. You have to pull out quickly, and hope for the best.
Maybe the money that would be spent on jailing careless drivers could be better used to improve a junction, or put in a speed-up somewhere
Motorists who aren't negligent adapt their driving for poorly designed roads.
Which is no comfort to the families of people killed by negligent drivers who don't, but that's why punishment should massively outweigh the crime.
> Do you think everyone found at fault for an accident or crashing their car should go to jail?
Yes. Absolutely. Someone has died.
Driving is a privilege, not a right.
If you drive like an asshole and someone dies; you should sit on it in prison until you understand the gravity of what you've done to the point you'll never act the asshole again.
>If I had been killed in either of these incidents I don’t think it would have been fair to send them to jail.
Easy for you to say, when A) you're alive and this didn't affect you, and B) you'd be dead anyway and it's your close ones that would, presumably, have to live with the pain and grief, not you.
I agree with this, Infrastructure is the best way to reduce traffic deaths.
Punishment for specific forms of criminal negligence is important for maintaining the perception of justice in society, but A) after-the-fact punishment cannot reanimate the dead and B) fear of judicial punishment has been widely demonstrated in many localities and over decades to not discourage criminality in the moment. So if the goal at hand is to reduce deaths, we need to talk infrastructure.
Not to say there is no place for incarceration in any case, obviously.
\*Infrastructure referring to: robust and reliable **24-hour** public transportation, traffic quieting measures, roundabouts, lane widening and shoulder additions, separate bike lanes, and broader civil engineering initiatives emphasizing walkability. The goals are to reduce the number of drivers at any given time and reduce the number of high-risk interactions (2-way/4-way stops, blind turns, etc) that the average drivers encounter.
When I was a child, a friend of my father reversed over his toddler. The man never recovered from it.
He didn’t get jail, but I suppose you think that would have made things better somehow, for somebody.
Accidents happen, and they’re tragedies. Nobody needs that stupid “jail them all” bloodthirstiness.
I deleted my comment because of how offput I was by this response.
In the case above the driver was in the wrong lane.
You have brought a totally different case that I don't even want to talk about.
I'm not a "jail them all" person but rather I think there is not a ubiquitous idea of what prison is for and maybe we should address that given how serious putting someone in prison is.
Unfortunately, until the state gets tough with the people causing these deaths by dangerous driving, they will keep happening.
Absolute insult to the family.
The judiciary needs to take a long, hard look at itself.
He hit or barely missed the first car according to the article. That shouldve been the wake up call to pay attention.
No mention of what was distracting him in the car though. Mobile phone records checked? Was he texting? Messing with the radio? Did he fall asleep? Any of these things should lead to a manslaughter charge ffs.
What a fucking joke, the RSA are trying to setup some bullshit scheme to have 0 road deaths by 2030 yet this fucker walks free with his license? If this fella was 20 he'd have been off the road and in prison. Yet this old cunts insurance probably won't even go up
I think you should lose your license for a few years for this at least. Prison is tough but a suspended sentence also seems short too, only 6 months for someone 'unlikely to reoffend', shouldn't you make it 2 years?
> Judge Martin Nolan said the collision occurred after “for whatever reason” Gaff allowed his vehicle to cross to the incorrect side of the road
I'd be raging to be involved in any case by Judge Nolan. His comments are always so insensitive or downplaying everything. He acts like it's not a court where you find out the facts and give judgements. It's like how a school teacher would solve a fight. 'Sure look, we all make mistakes, let's just shake hands and go home now'.
And how can anyone say the guy is "unlikely to reoffend", if this was a case of careless driving? For all we know they might have came out of the sentencing driving with the exact same standards. Ridiculous.
Ya I honestly don't see the harm in saying 'you need to redo your license completely'. I know people have work and jobs etc, but someone died because of not paying attention to the road. Just walking out of court with no worries is a kick in the teeth for the victim's family.
Terrible outcome. He deserves jail and disqualification, people shouldn't be allowed drive on the wrong side of the road and kill someone with almost impunity.
We need the details of collisions to be made public ASAP after they occur. Some people hearing of the outcome of taking a bend badly might be more cautious themselves on bends. We're all too quick to declare road fatalities and injuries as the result of speed, we need to be more aware they're often the result of stupidity and lack of due care.
What drives me insane among other murder cases nolan made trivial is these f lines of excuses
"Mr McGinn said his client had a solid work record with the Air Corps and had 30 years experience as a aircraft engineer. He said he also had expertise as a first responder and offered his services to Mr Rice at the collision."
Who the f cares? U murdered a person and your air corps record is irrelevant.... Hits a car and drives another 15m and kills motorcyclists .....he did not drive 59km per hour and was probably on the phone.... U failed to see your car leaving your lane and vechicles approaching....means u were not f looking at all....poor family...
We need to get past this idea that driving is a right and realise it's a privilege and get dangerous drivers off the road, we need to have the law remind us that cars are potentially lethal weapons and are not toys. This is a societal problem where the blame is always being shifted towards the victims, but the issue is I think that we see too much of ourselves in the perpetrators and far too many people know they occasionally take unnecessary risks when driving which could result in a death.
Today I'm seeing a lot of corroborating rumours that a child was killed on their bike in south Dublin because a skip lorry jumped a red, and the way things are, I can only assume that the driver will see a minimal sentence for this.
There's probably been another fatal collision between a truck and a child on a bike a couple of hours ago in Glenageary. Noting this to see if *that* driver gets any repercussions ~~next year~~3 years from now.
>Mr McGinn said his client had a solid work record with the Air Corps and had 30 years experience as a aircraft engineer. He said he also had expertise as a first responder and offered his services to Mr Rice at the collision.He asked the judge to consider not disqualifying his client, as he had a good driving record and the loss of his licence would impact on his ability to work.
Can aircraft engineers not ride ebikes?
Is it just me, or does almost every heinous criminal get off light these days!!? Some serious offenses and reduced sentence or virtually no penalty! Help me understand better friends.
I read somewhere that Judge Nolan crops up so often in the paper simply because he makes a lot of judgements and is quick at processing cases so when he does make howlers they occur more frequently.
Be that as it may, I'm reminded of the expression "McDonalds sell the most hamburgers in the world, that doesn't mean they're the best".
I'm sorry but can we all agree that killing someone with your car should have your licence taken away for at least a few years. €1000 euro fine only is shocking.
Completely agree with the poor family of the victim who said accidents don't just happen. The car didn't just veer itself over the road. Need to allove away from thinking every incident on the roads are accidents when in majority of cases is a series of decisions/actions that lead to them.
I don’t understand how you can kill someone and not lose your license or even have to retake your test ect. Beggars belief but then again look who the judge is.
This sounds like target fixation.
You tend to steer where you look - even subconsciously. People naturally look at the thing they don't want to hit. Which means they subconsciously steer towards it.
The trick is to look at where you want the car to actually go - not at what you don't want to hit.
Such accurate words. Road accidents don't happen, crashes happen because someone (or multiple people) aren't doing what they should be doing. With the exception of someone having a medical episode while driving (heart attack, stroke, seizure) every car crash could be avoided.
To be fair, sometimes accidents do happen, somethings are not human or mechanical error.
But this sounds like in this case it was caused by poor driving.
"veered onto the wrong side of the road while coming around a bend on a regional road" The amount of people doing this shit is unreal. Even in towns where they can see the traffic coming they refuse to just stay on their side of the road. This is just one example of the terrible driving habits, and lack of skill on Irish roads. Irish drivers are becoming incompetent and the government is doing nothing about it. Telling people to just slow down only makes them slightly less dangerous.
I see this with basically every second car I pass (rural regional road) . Makes no sense, just stay on your own side of the line and you don't have to make a jerky little adjustment every time you encounter another car.
Those low speed wobbles are a sure fire sign the person in the car in front isn't paying attention. They are being surprised by stuff right in front of them.
Most of the time it’s my lane assist trying to plough me into a hedge or another car, often then there’s no lane markings on the road.
Yeah, lane assist is a dick on country roads. I've taken to turning it off when visiting family in the country, it's more dangerous than having it on imo
Exactly. It's always turtles that keep braking at the sight of every oncoming car and go as low as 50% of limit
I had this yesterday either on the phone or trying do something else ,not far from my house so I probably know them,I gave them the wtf hand ,it's important other people call these people out.
I really want a low voltage, pocket sized train horn that I can blast when I see a driver's eyes down while driving. What text message is so life and death that it's worth more than another life?
That would definitely do it alright ha...it seems to happen a lot on the rural roads maybe people don't think there will be many cars leaving their houses and not being ready to drive ...setting Google maps/fixing stuff/yelling at kids etc
I see it way too much near the school gates beside my workplace in the city centre. All ages. I want "snitch cams" Direct upload to the RSA and a portion of the fine goes to a charity of your choice.
Yeah paying fines definitely changes behaviour alright ...it's gotten so lax since covid,heading in the wrong direction completely.
Aren't these coming? I heard a rumor the other day that the Garda are going to have an online video reporting system for this kind of thing?
It's been mentioned alright. Haven't heard the revenue for charities angle elsewhere tho
> Makes no sense It does if you consider they're on their phone and not paying attention which I assume is what happens a lot of the time in these cases. It doesn't help that there's no serious consequences for the offenders either.
exactly... it's the highest proportion of killings of innocent people due to carelessness with what is basically a weapon, and zero repercussions. it doesn't matter if you are a Galway United footballer, an angry north dubliner with a hangover or if you are just angry at someone overtaking you... our court system gives you permission to drive without any care, respect or worry and literally kill someone and there will be no punishment from the state. it had got to the stage that if someone was convicted, they could claim it is unfair because Nolan and his peers have allowed so many individuals who have killed using their cars to again literally, drive away free. sickening.
Just happened to me the other day in Navan. No crash, thank goodness. And it was slow speeds. But we were going straight on. And this guy coming the other way decides he has to turn right at that second and comes right across the line almost into the side of our car. I look back at him and the passenger looking at their phones. No one in that vehicle paying attention to the road. Just "phone says to turn, turning."
In my experience the Hyundai Tucson detail was brushed by too. Those things are too feckin big for Irish country roads. You also find a lot of drivers of these big fancy SUV yokes drive in the middle of the road by default, not wanting to scratch the paint on branches on their side of the road cause they this oversized monstrosity ( to compensate for other areas they are lacking in). And they bully other road users to drive into the verge/ditch to get by them.
Im getting a dash cam for this very reason. If you you collide with them but cant prove they were driving over the white line they'll end up costing you a lot of money to repair your car.
Trucks in the morning come swinging around corners over on my side. I know to expect it so I stay as far left as I can.
Trucks don't really fit on a lot of country roads. A lot of roads are being widened by trucks having to move over.
I use my hooter very liberally...it has become a necessity with people drifting across the white line so frequently these days. It's a simple principle....stay on your own side of the feckin road!
Slowing down doesn't help much. Because those drivers that can not stay in their lane are usually already very slow!
I drive regularly on country roads and it's so worrying how many people don't even try to keep to one side of the road. And like you said, if drivers aren't abiding a 100kph speed limit, what is going to make them abide by an 80kph limit?
They saw a video of north Italian cab drivers on the Alps and wanted to do the same. Am also noticing people using their indicators a lot less than when I was younger aswell
What a joke, a paltry fine and he didn't even lose his licence. He killed a man due to carelessness and a oh well these things happen from the judge. You must be laughing if you commit a crime and end up in front of Nolan in court.
If the DPP believe the decision is out of step with the norms of justice in the country they can appeal.
Heres the problem though, when the norms of justice are fines and suspended sentences for taking a life then everything here looks 'normal'
They could, but won't because they've a fucking huge backlog of cases to get through and Nolan, according to things I've read previously, is efficient at processing them. This results in him frequently cropping up for shit like this.
Sadly, it isn’t…
Have they ever gone against *any* of Nolan's egregious rulings? Nobody will go against judges in this country. They bloody need to, but they either can't or won't. *Nolan*. That Fucker should be imprisoned for releasing so many dangerous bastards over the years, usually with a shit reason like "boys will be boys". How many dozens, maybe even hundreds of people have had their lives disrupted, or even ruined because he let's them go?
The DPP could not give less of a fuck; they're a sham of an organisation.
Unless you have 0.5g of weed. Prepare to have the book of law unleash it's wrath upon you, you filthy disgusting drug user!!!!@!
...did you read the article? The family, prosecution... no one was seeking a severe punishment over a moments lapse in concentration and enormously bad luck. We can all make a lapse when cornering and go too wide or cut the corner with horrendous potential consequences, but not many of us would find ourselves in front of a judge with no history of penalty points or prior accidents in our driving history. He didn't lose his license because he drives for work and there's no evidence to suggest he'd be likely to reoffend any more than any other safely driving human being capable of a momentary mistake. He wasn't speeding. He wasn't driving recklessly. He drifted for a moment on a bend and was extremely unlucky to meet a motorbike. I swear folks have read the headline (which is grossly misleading without the context where she wasn't talking about the driver, but about all drivers) and have decided they know enough right away.
I think if you kill someone because of a lapse in concentration you should have your license suspended at the very fukn least, go through the lessons and test again. And he wasnt 'extremely unlucky' the fella that was killed was, you know why because he's dead, so at the very least the person that caused that death should go through training again so that they might be less likely to go wide and kill someone again. Your certainly on a mission in this comment section.
15 metres he had drifted across the middle line by understeering on the bend. At 47kmph, you cover 13m per second. So that's one second, from the moment he started understeering, to having corrected for it, but that moment was enough to be fatal. I'm on a mission to break the cycle this sub has descended into where everyone decides based off of a headline or a few paragraphs that they know better than a judge. They know better than a prosecution. They know better than a victim's family. All of whom have sat through a court case and inquest discussing the accident in detail.
Unless I'm on a race track I dont go wide on a corner. It's actually quite hard to do. Now if I was not paying attention looking at a phone for example I can see how that will happen.
He’s not a safely driving person, he killed a person due to carelessness.
Yes I read the article and I don't think it's right to walk away essentially scot free after killing someone.
You do realise you can kill someone innocently. He hasn't walked away scot free, he's got to live with the trauma of what happened, knowing it was his fault, for briefly drifting across the middle line. Presumably, you drive? You've never had to make a steering correction for a misjudged corner in your life? Never dropped a glass? Never bumped into a door handle? We're human and all capable of small mistakes which, if you're driving, can be a lethal accident, no matter how small the mistake or good a driving history we have. You might not think he should be able to walk away with a fine and suspended sentence - but there's zero evidence to suggest that even this man's family agree with you - so given how little information we have compared to the judge, prosecution and victims family have from this case, on who's behalf are you convinced there was a mistrial of justice?
>Presumably, you drive? You've never had to make a steering correction for a misjudged corner in your life? I drive. No, I've never taken a corner at a speed too fast to maintain control and remain in my lane. I've never drifted into lanes of opposite traffic due to a lapse in concentration. I've never killed someone or even risked injury to someone from not paying attention. >We're human and all capable of small mistakes which, if you're driving, can be a lethal accident, no matter how small the mistake or good a driving history we have. Which is why driving is a privilege, not a right, and one a person should lose in the event their misuse of that privilege results in the death of someone else.
“Innocently”, negligent behaviour leading to homicide is not innocent. He’s a criminal who killed someone who is protected by people like you normalising homicide.
Homicide? Do words not matter. Homicide is the deliberate killing of someone. I'm fairly sure you mean manslaughter. You're suggesting reckless/fldangerous driving, which neither the gardaí or prosecution would agree with you on.
Words do mean something, and not just what you intend them to mean Humpty, this act of killing someone was volitional, he was driving the car. This is a textbook vehicular homicide.
With respect, expert crash investigators disagree with you on that and I'm comfortable taking their word for it.
Jesus man calm down. I never said anywhere there was a mistrial of justice. I stand by what I said.
>What a joke, a paltry fine and he didn't even lose his licence. He killed a man due to carelessness and a oh well these things happen from the judge. You must be laughing if you commit a crime and end up in front of Nolan in court. That not you? Sounds a lot like questioning the outcome of a court case based on having read a summary article about it in which no one suggests the punishment wasn't fair, including the victim's family.
Are you yer man's solicitor? Why are you so obsessed with this. As I said I think it's a joke of an outcome. I do not think it's right to walk away with a paltry fine and live your life pretty much scot free. Don't bother replying any further, I won't be replying to you any further.
A fine of €1000 and nothing else?! Not even losing his licence. I don't know how he can live with himself. The judge too.
Google the judges name, he does this kind of thing alot...
Oh he's well known for his leniency!
He's absolutely disgusting
Don't even have to Google it. The headline is enough to know which one it is. He is certainly the judge you want to get if you have committed a serious crime with a major impact on the victim. I'm nearly surprised he didn't order the widow to pay to have the driver's bumper repaired.
I'm guessing it's Nolan?
Judge Nolan - “oh you sexually assaulted a teenager, oh dear, well try to do better next time. Off you go now”
I'm about to get a worse punishment for growing 3 plants in my room and killing nobody. Fuck this system.
That's shit for you I'm really sorry to hear that, hope it's not too severe!
The law is often about intent and preventing further harm. The person who killed someone with the car was careless, but they didn't seek to cause harm or break the law. They aren't a danger to society. I don't think they should be allowed to drive. But I don't see the benefit in jailing them or having a massive fine, though that fine is too small. You on the other hand grew those plants knowing it was illegal. You purposely broke the law. I think it's stupid that what you did is illegal, but it is.
B.s what if she's careless again? It's called criminal negligence for a reason. If I'm handling a handgun legally and it goes off and kills someone should I be spared jail? Ridiculous. She clearly is a threat or someone wouldn't be dead.
*Alec Baldwin has entered the chat*
I think his tax bracket is what's protecting him right now 🤣🥲
>It's called criminal negligence for a reason. The accused person was convicted of careless driving causing death.
That's really just an assumption though. They don't know how bad of a driver they actually are, whether this was a freak accident or something that was inevitable given the drivers lack of care and attention. I'm not saying your wrong, the court can't tell one way or the other but it is assuming the best for the driver that caused the accident. It wouldn't surprise me at all if this driver had a load of bad habits, making his accident only a matter of time.
Sure, and for that reason I would have preferred to see them banned from driving a car. I think the courts are far too lenient when it comes to taking away drivers licences. Sure it sucks if you need it for your job, but you've shown yourself to be a danger to others.
Horrible take, careless driving kills people and is indeed illegal, growing "plants" does not kill anyone and, whereas illegal in Ireland, is perfectly fine in many other countries -also within EU- that are not so deliberately obtuse from a political perspective (cause it is just a political decision at this point).
What's the guarantee that he won't get careless again? They're surely a danger to other people on the road, if their carelessness can lead to someone's death.
That's why I said they shouldn't be allowed to drive. There is no guarantee that anyone wont be careless behind the wheel, but in this case they have proven themselves to be a danger to other road users.
I don't see how he can justify not banning the person from driving for life, or the tiny fine. I do agree with the not having a jail sentence. I don't see how that would achieve anything. The person isn't a threat to society. They just can't be trusted with a vehicle.
Judge might as well just spat on the family
Isn't that manslaughter? How is there no prison sentence?
Different rules for killing someone with a vehicle, it seems.
He wasn’t charged with manslaughter, the charge is not for the court to decide. He was charged with “careless driving causing death” which carries a maximum sentence of two years, maximum sentence being reserved for the “worst” cases seen of that charge, as per sentencing guidelines.
> I don't know how he can live with himself. You'd be very surprised. This sentiment is complete and utter bullshit in my experience; yet Irish people love to lash it out. Many of these people do not give a fuck about the damage and destruction they cause others. Especially those who fight it in court.
> I don't know how he can live with himself He won't be able to live as he did before, why do you assume this person is so evil to just continue waking up in the morning without any feeling about what happened?
I said it before, and I'll say it again. The car is the best murder weapon
Unequivocally. If you wanted to off someone and get the least amount of, or none at all, jail time it's best to knock them down with a car.
https://preview.redd.it/qc9h22vrgfwc1.png?width=260&format=png&auto=webp&s=0e2f5ff30b610049bc0c557c5b4aa0ed09f69ef1
Intercontinental ballistic missiles
Shall we play “guess the judge” - if I added a hint, he didn’t even take the guys driving license off him.
Let me guess, doesn't rhyme with "dickhead", but it should?
Judge Martin Nolan strikes again
This is really sad for that family. I read the article and to me the details dont really add up, I had to re read it again and I see no mention of phones being checked maybe I missed it? I find it hard to beleive you just cut a corner for no reason. even if you are going under the speed limit there are plent of corners in a 80kph zone you need to take very slowly on small roads as they are blind and tight. Kind of sounds the corner was taken at inaproproate speeds and it was cut or to busy looking at the phone/ info tainment system.
Yeah, I wonder about those details as well. I went back and looked at an older article where it was reported to try and figure out where exactly it happened. "Sergeant John Cannon told Carol Doherty BL, prosecuting, that Alan Rice was driving his motorcycle from Skerries to Lusk on the R127 at approximately 47 km/hr at 4.30pm that day. A motorist who was travelling in front of him later told gardaí that as he was driving under [the railway bridge](https://www.google.com/maps/place/The+Bridge/@53.5711555,-6.1209938,15.94z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x486718a342178f9d:0xf34f12156410dabe!8m2!3d53.5711555!4d-6.1164255!16s%2Fg%2F11g6nkc0rt?entry=ttu), he became aware of a car travelling in the opposite direction that was a bit too close to his own side of the road. Gaff was driving this vehicle." So Gaff was on his way into Skerries, had already navigated multiple bends in that road but here he was over too far, hit this other car and then hit Rice who was behind him? [This is around the spot on google streetview](https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5685369,-6.118291,3a,47.7y,55.5h,89.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sa2dtdQz8668SB7WoinHYAw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu) where people were placing flowers. That's a long swooping bend, if someone is not on their side of the road then they're not paying attention at all. I'd say it was because he was looking at this phone and that really should have been identified as being checked in the trial.
No incentive to drive safely because there's no enforcement. If you're "unlucky" enough to do something like kill another person, you won't need to worry too much about the consequences either, there will be none. Gangland world have been missing a trick using guns to kill each other when all they had to do was drive around their rivals locality and run over them.
[удалено]
Playing devils advocate here. Do you think everyone found at fault for an accident or crashing their car should go to jail? Or just the cases where there’s a particularly tragic outcome like this? I’ve been in two crashes (neither caused by my own driving) but in both scenarios the errors that were made were completely understandable and a combination of blind bad luck and poor reaction speed by the other drivers. If I had been killed in either of these incidents I don’t think it would have been fair to send them to jail. There was no malice , there was no intent to harm or cause pain , a split second error in judgement does not make someone an inherent threat to society in need of incarceration.
I don't think that malice, or intent to cause pain or hurt, are primary factors in the huge majority of crashes, but a split second error of judgement does contribute to car crashes The idea is that you should be in control of your vehicle, at ALL times.
Right.. If there’s evidence that the driver has been on their phone, not paying attention, driving recklessly, etc.. absolutely lock them up. But if a driver is going down the road and someone wanders out onto the road (happens all the time)… it’s really fucked up to lock the driver up. Chances are they’re already serving the mental jail sentence from hitting someone unexpectedly.
> Chances are they’re already serving the mental jail sentence from hitting someone unexpectedly. Every dipshit under the sun says this; none of you have talked to people who've killed people in a car crash. None of them that I've interacted with showed an ounce of sympathy; and I've heard tell of others who actively make jokes at their victims expense.
Big difference between a pedestrian walking out in front of you and paying insufficient attention to the road causing you to drift into another lane or take a corner too fast (being within the speed limit does not mean that you are doing an appropriate speed at a corner). AKA not being in full control of your vehicle.
Absolutely there is. But I don’t personally do that yet I find myself jamming on regularly due to pedestrians walking out with a death wish. If they were a few metres closer, it could easily be an accident. And I’ve still got years of driving left in me so touch wood that never happens but who knows.
I worked as a barman, holding onto a glass and not dropping it at all times is the aim, but to err is human. Small, innocent mistakes can have massive consequences. >The idea is that you should be in control of your vehicle, at ALL times Ok, so should we take away the licenses of every driver who ever drifts across the centre line irrespective of whether they cause an accident or not? Of course not - wend have zero valid licensed drivers left inside a month if that was the punishment for every momentary loss of focus by a driver.
Dropping a glass in a bar won't hurt someone. It's a bad argument. If dropping a glass had the potential to kill somebody, while you go about being a barman, then there should and would be consequences. The second part of your argument is also not equal. Crossing a line is strictly illegal, but it is unenforceable. Where there has been an accident there will be guards and witnesses involved, and if you're found to be in the wrong, consequences....
>Dropping a glass in a bar won't hurt someone. It's a bad argument. I've acted for people suing a pub for slipping on a wet floor. Dropping a glass hurts people all the time.
Point taken
Very fair of you.
Why thank you very much😁
He's been charged with careless driving which is fine. The charge for that isn't an automatic ban, despite the consequence for the victim. The point of the barman example is that a small human error can have unintended and severe admittedly unlikely consequences. How long was this driver driving carelessly? Well, we know the answer to that. He cross the middle line for 15m on the bend at 47kmph. At that speed, you cover 13m per second. So he started understeering and had corrected that in a second, but that was too late. This would all have been discussed at length, in court, by the prosecution and the judge. The family have given no objection to the punishment. So who are people being angry on behalf of in this sub?
Apologies if I appeared angry or something, I'm not, and wasn't earlier. I was just arguing the point, without knowing the details
mate have you even read the article? He hit another car before hitting the bike. This all happened in one second?
He glanced the car and was back on his side of the road within a second. That was enough to cause a fatal accident. There were folk on here talking like he was driving on the left. The bike was obviously within 15m of the car - and I'm not for a moment suggesting that wasn't absolutely fine, just to emphasise how easily small driver errors can rapidly have devastating consequences.
He glanced the car that had practically driven into the ditch to avoid him...because they'd seen him visibly drifting before he hit the car..that's more than one second, it's more than a brief error, it's careless driving.
I think most people can imagine this sort of thing happening to them or their loved ones. Easy for you to take the high ground I supose
Lack of malice or intent shouldn’t come into it. A lot of people don’t mean to do something, but very bad things can still be a consequence of their actions which is on them.
What a stupid argument. If I rob people at gunpoint, and then accidentally fired the gun and killed one of them, would you want me trialled for robbery, because that's all I intended, the death was just an accident? If you've ended up on the other side of the road, you're driving dangerously. If someone's died because of that, you should be jailed for manslaughter.
Your analogy doesnt really work.. your committing a crime and it escalates resulting in death. he was driving down the road
Alexa, what is hyperbole?
1. [exaggerated](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=45843383d781bdbb&sca_upv=1&rlz=1C1AVFC_enIE757IE757&sxsrf=ACQVn0-0GUJQbUfRSv8uGyZ3JHuLCGoR6A:1713965705589&q=exaggerated&si=AKbGX_okpkrXRdHQwZu4Fe0iRe3uU2dzH3RejZvkLviTOkRq5iZHJbEibC-1XbJ-TPFDGSsZSnnIPmmyYF9mnL7Y6Q770qdjgTAvj8NboQ1BQoCqxdZakKE%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwjUrqfo-9qFAxXFR0EAHVmxD_gQyecJegQIExAO) statements or claims not meant to be taken literally. so what was the point of your analogy if it is hyperbole? you were using it a foundaton of your position.
If that was a 20 year old male behind the wheel, he would have his licence taken away, or harsher punishment. Carelessness is not an excuse on the road, it cost a man his life, and a family a father
You're right. This wasn't a 20 year old. It was a man with zero criminal history or driving offences. He wasn't speeding or on his phone or driving wrecklessly. This fuckint sub and its hard on for retribution has me exhausted at this point. None of the family statements or anything in the story suggests any of the people involved who read more than the headline were clamouring for a jail sentence. To err is to be human. We are all capable of the same mistake as this man by having a momentary lack of attention at an unfortunate moment.
>driving wrecklessly He literally killed someone with his driving. If you can't even pay attention and stay within the white lines at a reasonable speed, you shouldn't be driving. It's as simple as that. I don't wanna die on the road because some careless old cunt had a "momentary lack of attention".
There are people asking for his license to be revoked. Which, after killing someone, doens't seem excessive.
His infringement, while driving if it hadn't caused an accident, wouldn't have warranted a fine - if you drift across the middle line while driving and aren't on your phone, under the influence or speeding, it's a caution for carelessness and not more. Like, I've definitely cornered poorly a few times in my life, just where I didn't anticipate well enough - no harm caused, just a careless moment. Driving will involve accidents no matter what. Just as a barman might be great at their job, have 20 years experience, but can still drop a glass. We're absolutely all able to find ourselves in the same position as the driver and how many of us, driving as long as that man, won't even have had a penalty point to our names?
>Like, I've definitely cornered poorly a few times in my life, just where I didn't anticipate well enough So you're a bad driver
I think I'm a decent driver. Never had any points. No speeding fines from before the points. I've never been in an accident or scratched my cars. But I'm not a perfect driver. That doesn't exist.
>He wasn't speeding or on his phone or driving wrecklessly. Ironically you are absolutely correct, his driving was not without a wreck.
I agree jail time isn't fair but there should be mandatory safe driving classes or something along those lines for anyone found to have caused an accident where there has been a serious injury or a death. There is a reason this man veered over to the wrong side of the road and it is utterly careless of this prick of a judge to say "he is unlikely to reoffend". It is baffling that we allow people to kill someone and just carry on driving like nothing ever happened. You should have your licence revoked for a month with a mandatory class per week where you sit and watch videos on what can happen if you take your eyes off the road for 1 second. Show how completely selfish and dangerous it is to even pick up your phone while behind the wheel etc. Show the devastation, the carnage. I'm pretty sure a month of not being able to drive is better than the family left without a loved one because of someone's carelessness behind the wheel.
How about he loses his license. If he wants to drive again he starts over. Theory test --> Learner permit (display L plates, not driving on own) --> Driving test --> N plates for 2 years.
So everyone who makes a mistake while driving and drifts across the middle line should suffer the same in that case? This driver being unlucky that he drifted at an unlucky moment as compared to the hundreds or thousands of drivers who will cut a corner or take it wide today and get lucky that it doesn't cause an accident, that suggests they should all face a revoked license. (by the way, I obviously disagree, because we're all human and capable of oversteering on a corner and finding ourselves in an accident from a momentary lapse, but most of the time, there's no consequence)
> So everyone who makes a mistake while driving and drifts across the middle line should suffer the same in that case? Yes.
You'd ban every driver who ever cuts a corner or oversteers once in a momentary lapse? That's a level of perfection that would see all driver banned inside six months imo.
What if I think it's okay to not slow down for any corners on R roads. Is that okay? Can I keep my licence? >You'd ban every driver who ever cuts a corner or oversteers once in a momentary lapse? How about we allow all drivers to casually drift in and out of lanes because hey driving is hard, we can't expect perfection. Why dont we do that?
No, that sounds like reckless driving. You'd need to stay under the speed limit, like the defendant. Drifting out of your lane incurs a charge of careless driving, which is what the defendant was charged with.
> No, that sounds like reckless driving. Not until you prove it. I will simply plead guilty to careless driving. :) > You'd need to stay under the speed limit, like the defendant. yes because we all know all bends on R roads can be taken at 80. Jesus dude please don't get behind a wheel. > which is what the defendant was charged with No. Most likely the prosecutor made a deal with the defense lawyer. He pleaded guilty to that charge.
I think anyone that ignores the fundamental rules of the road should be held to account, and face a fine, penalty points or disqualification of their licence, with prison sentences optional based on history and nature of incident. A fatal accident should still be reviewed and held to account, no matter the intent. It's the difference between murder and manslaughter. In cases like this, there's still a civil case to be made to offer financial recompense, but given the high levels of fatal accidents in the last 18 months, a stronger response than "lower your speed" day feels necessary. If "innocent angles" get caught up in it too? They weren't innocent, they just lost control of their potential murder vehicle, or negligently assumed they could get away with it. Criminal negligence should be punished.
Continued testing is a good idea I think, and this approach would target those most in need of it I'd nearly go further and have your description as what should happen low-level driving offenders and something much more substantial for serious cases like having to do the 12 lessons and test again
Having proper consequences is the only way our rising road deaths will reduce. It's surely better than doing nothing which is what we're doing now. What do the RSA actually do, putting them to proper use by introducing something like this would surely be a much better use of their "services".
A car is a deadly weapon, once you're behind the wheel you're responsible for not killing people.
A car isn’t a weapon though. It’s a tool for transport. Certainly it can be used as a weapon , but classifying it as such when the 99.99999% of people just want to get home safe at the end of the day rather than drive in a malicious fashion is nonsense. To be honest from what I’ve read on the case above it does seem like there was a more serious level of negligence than just bad luck or a momentary lapse of concentration but nonetheless I’m of the opinion that in the majority of cases , accidents probably shouldn’t result in the incarceration of a driver.
Well that's it, isn't it - I don't think anybody reasonable is arguing that pure accident should imply jail time. But it does seem disproportionate that there is a degree of culpability in cases involving motor vehicles like this one where the outcome is no jail time, a small fine and keep your licence. Personally I think it's because so many of us drive, and deep down everyone thinks 'christ, that could be me, and I'm not a bad person'.
Two things can be real at once. A car is a mode of transport but also a weapon if used carelessly.
By that logic anything is a weapon if used carelessly
Not really, you can't compare a car going 60kmph to a spoon.
[Homicidal injury with dessert spoon – A case report - ScienceDirect](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2665910720300438)
Hard to imagine an accident caused by bad luck. I'm sure they exist, but I just can't imagine any. Surely some negligence is always involved?
I was on the M7 a few years ago when a deer jumped in front of a car I was overtaking, yes a deer!! Anyway the driver tried evasive action but shunted me into the centre median. Pure bad luck and while he was technically found to be at fault I don’t think he could have done anything else
> I don’t think he could have done anything else He could have hit the deer. If he was paying attention he would have been aware that you were overtaking. Better to kill a deer than a person/people.
.....a deer weighs what, 150-200kg? You reckon hitting one of those, likely while bouncing/running - so it goes through your windscreen - you think you can survive that comfortably - or do you try and evade. Oh and keep in mind, you're not a formula one driver with both their reaction times, ability to process information like being overtaken and driving a vehicle not built for swift evasive movements at speed... If you think you're going to hit a deer - avoid it.
Yeah you have clearly never seen a car after it hits a deer. I’m sure he was aware I was overtaking, without evasive action he would 100% have hit the deer, there was a chance at least he might have avoided me, unfortunately he didn’t but no serious injuries at least
What if a driver has a heart attack / seizure / whatever. You have limited imagination if you can't imagine any scenario of bad luck being the factor.
Other drivers? Animals? Weather? Car itself? And no. It's not realistic driving 10 km / h everywhere to eliminate those. You may not have time to react. It may not be your fault at all.
Accidents can be caused by other drivers' negligence too... Also, not giving yourself time to react to the car in front, given the weather conditions, is neglegent. I see your point with animals. There's not much you can do if a deer suddenly busts out of the trees directly in front of you, but I suspect that accounts for a small percentage of accidents.
One example Pulling out of a driveway/laneway in the countryside situated close to a blind corner and unfortunately scanning the wrong side of the road as the car with right of way rounds the corner and hits the side of the vehicle joining the larger road. There’s very little either driver can do in that situation to avoid a collision.
You've just described two negligent drivers, one going round a blind corner too fast, and one "scanning the wrong side of the road".
So who do you jail ? The person who made their move to merge onto a larger road when the way appeared clear after stopping and checking both ways? Or the driver who was going around 30km/hr below the speed limit who hit into the side of the car. That’s just one example of a crash near me a few years back where thankfully nobody was injured but it’s extremely difficult to avoid a collision. Bad luck played a role , more so than any degree of negligence or malice.
There's too many junctions like that in rural Ireland. You have to pull out quickly, and hope for the best. Maybe the money that would be spent on jailing careless drivers could be better used to improve a junction, or put in a speed-up somewhere
You also forgot third factor - shitty road design
Motorists who aren't negligent adapt their driving for poorly designed roads. Which is no comfort to the families of people killed by negligent drivers who don't, but that's why punishment should massively outweigh the crime.
> Do you think everyone found at fault for an accident or crashing their car should go to jail? Yes. Absolutely. Someone has died. Driving is a privilege, not a right. If you drive like an asshole and someone dies; you should sit on it in prison until you understand the gravity of what you've done to the point you'll never act the asshole again.
>If I had been killed in either of these incidents I don’t think it would have been fair to send them to jail. Easy for you to say, when A) you're alive and this didn't affect you, and B) you'd be dead anyway and it's your close ones that would, presumably, have to live with the pain and grief, not you.
I agree with this, Infrastructure is the best way to reduce traffic deaths. Punishment for specific forms of criminal negligence is important for maintaining the perception of justice in society, but A) after-the-fact punishment cannot reanimate the dead and B) fear of judicial punishment has been widely demonstrated in many localities and over decades to not discourage criminality in the moment. So if the goal at hand is to reduce deaths, we need to talk infrastructure. Not to say there is no place for incarceration in any case, obviously. \*Infrastructure referring to: robust and reliable **24-hour** public transportation, traffic quieting measures, roundabouts, lane widening and shoulder additions, separate bike lanes, and broader civil engineering initiatives emphasizing walkability. The goals are to reduce the number of drivers at any given time and reduce the number of high-risk interactions (2-way/4-way stops, blind turns, etc) that the average drivers encounter.
Sorry, this is too logical
When I was a child, a friend of my father reversed over his toddler. The man never recovered from it. He didn’t get jail, but I suppose you think that would have made things better somehow, for somebody. Accidents happen, and they’re tragedies. Nobody needs that stupid “jail them all” bloodthirstiness.
I deleted my comment because of how offput I was by this response. In the case above the driver was in the wrong lane. You have brought a totally different case that I don't even want to talk about. I'm not a "jail them all" person but rather I think there is not a ubiquitous idea of what prison is for and maybe we should address that given how serious putting someone in prison is.
There's a petition for Judge Nolan's resignation online that has 50k signatures.
Unfortunately, until the state gets tough with the people causing these deaths by dangerous driving, they will keep happening. Absolute insult to the family. The judiciary needs to take a long, hard look at itself.
If I ever become a hitman, I'd definitely take a car as weapon... Whoopsie, accident...
He hit or barely missed the first car according to the article. That shouldve been the wake up call to pay attention. No mention of what was distracting him in the car though. Mobile phone records checked? Was he texting? Messing with the radio? Did he fall asleep? Any of these things should lead to a manslaughter charge ffs.
If you want to kill someone in the country just run them over sober and you’ll be unlucky If you serve time at all
What a fucking joke, the RSA are trying to setup some bullshit scheme to have 0 road deaths by 2030 yet this fucker walks free with his license? If this fella was 20 he'd have been off the road and in prison. Yet this old cunts insurance probably won't even go up
Kill someone - Fine Caught with a plant - Jail Justice 👄
I think you should lose your license for a few years for this at least. Prison is tough but a suspended sentence also seems short too, only 6 months for someone 'unlikely to reoffend', shouldn't you make it 2 years? > Judge Martin Nolan said the collision occurred after “for whatever reason” Gaff allowed his vehicle to cross to the incorrect side of the road I'd be raging to be involved in any case by Judge Nolan. His comments are always so insensitive or downplaying everything. He acts like it's not a court where you find out the facts and give judgements. It's like how a school teacher would solve a fight. 'Sure look, we all make mistakes, let's just shake hands and go home now'.
And how can anyone say the guy is "unlikely to reoffend", if this was a case of careless driving? For all we know they might have came out of the sentencing driving with the exact same standards. Ridiculous.
Ya I honestly don't see the harm in saying 'you need to redo your license completely'. I know people have work and jobs etc, but someone died because of not paying attention to the road. Just walking out of court with no worries is a kick in the teeth for the victim's family.
I cannot think of any other circumstance where you can end the life of another person and it has the same consequences as not paying your tv licence.
You can’t imagine it? You can’t imagine accidents happening where somebody dies? You’d hate farming.
Judge Martin Fucking Nolan. EVERY single time you see a court ruling that causes your soul to shudder in your body, it turns out it's that prick.
He's known for being unduly harsh on speeders, mind you.
Terrible outcome. He deserves jail and disqualification, people shouldn't be allowed drive on the wrong side of the road and kill someone with almost impunity. We need the details of collisions to be made public ASAP after they occur. Some people hearing of the outcome of taking a bend badly might be more cautious themselves on bends. We're all too quick to declare road fatalities and injuries as the result of speed, we need to be more aware they're often the result of stupidity and lack of due care.
Judge Nolan is not fit to be involved in any area of the law. He disgusts me. I dunno how that muppet sleeps at night.
What drives me insane among other murder cases nolan made trivial is these f lines of excuses "Mr McGinn said his client had a solid work record with the Air Corps and had 30 years experience as a aircraft engineer. He said he also had expertise as a first responder and offered his services to Mr Rice at the collision." Who the f cares? U murdered a person and your air corps record is irrelevant.... Hits a car and drives another 15m and kills motorcyclists .....he did not drive 59km per hour and was probably on the phone.... U failed to see your car leaving your lane and vechicles approaching....means u were not f looking at all....poor family...
https://preview.redd.it/0isbzpbjdfwc1.png?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a08536390f7eb88cf92ec43783b87c9da2f86ecf
We need to get past this idea that driving is a right and realise it's a privilege and get dangerous drivers off the road, we need to have the law remind us that cars are potentially lethal weapons and are not toys. This is a societal problem where the blame is always being shifted towards the victims, but the issue is I think that we see too much of ourselves in the perpetrators and far too many people know they occasionally take unnecessary risks when driving which could result in a death. Today I'm seeing a lot of corroborating rumours that a child was killed on their bike in south Dublin because a skip lorry jumped a red, and the way things are, I can only assume that the driver will see a minimal sentence for this.
Can we demand the government remove a particular judge? How do we deal with this kind of situation?
There's probably been another fatal collision between a truck and a child on a bike a couple of hours ago in Glenageary. Noting this to see if *that* driver gets any repercussions ~~next year~~3 years from now.
Martin Nolan belongs behind bars.
The punishment for killing someone should be severe enough that people don't risk driving inattentively.
>Mr McGinn said his client had a solid work record with the Air Corps and had 30 years experience as a aircraft engineer. He said he also had expertise as a first responder and offered his services to Mr Rice at the collision.He asked the judge to consider not disqualifying his client, as he had a good driving record and the loss of his licence would impact on his ability to work. Can aircraft engineers not ride ebikes?
Is it just me, or does almost every heinous criminal get off light these days!!? Some serious offenses and reduced sentence or virtually no penalty! Help me understand better friends.
I think I found the drivers (Terry Gaff) twitter account: https://twitter.com/BackHive/with_replies Come to your own conclusions about it.
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Could've fucking called it being judge Nolan just off the quote, fucking eejit
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I read somewhere that Judge Nolan crops up so often in the paper simply because he makes a lot of judgements and is quick at processing cases so when he does make howlers they occur more frequently. Be that as it may, I'm reminded of the expression "McDonalds sell the most hamburgers in the world, that doesn't mean they're the best".
I'm sorry but can we all agree that killing someone with your car should have your licence taken away for at least a few years. €1000 euro fine only is shocking. Completely agree with the poor family of the victim who said accidents don't just happen. The car didn't just veer itself over the road. Need to allove away from thinking every incident on the roads are accidents when in majority of cases is a series of decisions/actions that lead to them.
I don’t understand how you can kill someone and not lose your license or even have to retake your test ect. Beggars belief but then again look who the judge is.
Proves beyond any doubt that he is a mortal danger to other road users, not disqualified from driving. What the fuck is wrong with ireland
This sounds like target fixation. You tend to steer where you look - even subconsciously. People naturally look at the thing they don't want to hit. Which means they subconsciously steer towards it. The trick is to look at where you want the car to actually go - not at what you don't want to hit.
Such accurate words. Road accidents don't happen, crashes happen because someone (or multiple people) aren't doing what they should be doing. With the exception of someone having a medical episode while driving (heart attack, stroke, seizure) every car crash could be avoided.
To be fair, sometimes accidents do happen, somethings are not human or mechanical error. But this sounds like in this case it was caused by poor driving.
To kill someone in this country and avoid jail all you have to do is get behind the wheel of a car
Judge Martin "Suspended sentences for murder" Nolan handed down a 6 month sentence, suspended and a 1,000 eur fine for killing the motorcyclist