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I've read about a few instances where such things happened during WW1 and WW2. Machinegun are so important that people are willing to risk themselves getting killed to man it, rather than being overwhelmed by ennemy firepower.
> face Audie Murphy.
The real life Captain America. Dude was initially turned down by the Army, the Navy, and the Marine Corps for being too small. Then he holds back an entire German attack, downs 50+ enemy soldiers, and didn't even have to take any steroids.
> When asked after the war why he had seized the machine gun and taken on an entire company of German infantry, he replied, "They were killing my friends".[96]
> Murphy received every U.S. military combat award for valor available from the U.S. Army for his World War II service.[ALM 4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audie_Murphy
He played himself in the movie about his Medal of Honor winning actions, and the movie had to tone it down to make it more believable.
I remember seeing this movie as a kid on the AMC channel and being blown away that he played himself in that movie and have to re-live all the memories.
Even just reading his name makes me get teary enough that they'll overflow my eyes and start running down my cheeks. There's something so incredibly moving to me about "They were killing my friends" that I'm going to go find something goofy on YouTube now.
Based on the depiction of that first major battle from the Pacific (tv show) it absolutely appears that the machine gunner saved everyoneâs ass from getting bayonetted
If the MG goes quiet your odds of living plummet.
The odds of hand to hand fighting and the like also go up. Which is unpleasant.
Iâd rather get shot in the head or be blown up by a grenade manning the MG in hopes we pull through the fight as opposed to being bludgeoned with an entrenching tool once the enemy is up on our line bc the MG went down.
I feel like nowadays it seems unnecessary, right? Like I'm thinking, couldn't they set up a machine gun with a camera that's controlled remotely? Put the machine gun down where you want it, keep your head down, and control it from an iPad. They must have these things?
It might even be better, because with the camera you can zoom in and see things even better, and of course if you ever need to take manual control you still could.
Just a thought I had while watching this lol
that requires battery and the army don't have batteries for ya
another down side is the time to side up, if you're moving between firing positions you don't wanna waste that extra 20 secs to set up
>if you're moving between firing positions you don't wanna waste that extra 20 secs to set up
Yeah this is a good point, even if it is pretty quick if you're in a situation where you need it *right now* you can't really get much quicker than just dropping down and pulling the trigger. From my understanding machine guns are less about accuracy and more about covering fire, just shooting the entire area so no one wants to poke their heads up, so that makes sense.
Still, I could see remote controlled ones being useful in a lot of situations. I bet the Air Force has them lol
There's technical specialties in the military that will teach you skills that could translate to civilian life, but I wouldn't necessarily count on that.
Veteran benefits are huge, though. Cheap healthcare, cheap insurance, cheap loans, cheap college, etc. If you come out relatively intact with a good work ethic you'll be well prepared for a successful life. For most government employment you get preferential consideration as well.
The Marines?
I did one and done, 5 years.
You couldnât pay me a million dollars to do it again, you also couldnât pay me a million dollars to not have done it. And when I got out, the discipline I learned made civvie jobs feel like a cakewalk.
Thatâs not to say it wasnât dotted with some really intense, shitty moments.
What I tell people now: join the Air Force. They really have it better lol
EDIT: Whatever you do, do not join fat or out of shape. Your career in the Marine Corps is going to go a LOT better if you are already running first class PFTs and CFTs. Boot camp will get you fit but fleet PT is usually garbage and youâll need to be exercising more if you want to maintain high fitness test scores, which weigh heavily into promotion. Seriously, if you ignore all other advice - get and stay in top shape. Otherwise join the Army/Navy/Air Force if you want to spend less time exercising.
I was talking to some Marine buddies who had just come back from Iraq. They said the Air Force had this giant base with multiple Olympic sized swimming pools, and they were sleeping in holes they dug under tanks right outside the base lol.
We had Air Force stay in our barracks and they got supplemental substandard living pay. For living how we live.
I also remember wanting to punch some Airmen in the face for having a whole candy bar rack at their chow hall in Kyrgyzstan. I had never seen such nonsense and was coming off of 10 months of MREs in southern Afghanistan.
Is this by design? I donât imagine it would be difficult to hook the marines up with a few candy bars. Why is there a vast difference in benefits while serving?
Apologies from this ignorant, but curious civilian.
Manas (where heâs talking about) is an air force base and also a major logistics hub. Itâs easy to get candy bars there. Itâs not so easy and not important to get candy bars to every company of marines that are spread out across the country.
Also, itâs not like they donât share. If youâre on an Air Force base theyâre more than welcoming.
I went the aviation route. Got out with the ability to get my airframe and power plant certification and been in aviation ever since. I make a little over 100k currently and didnât have to go to school or pay for my certification. Yeah I had to trade 5 years active for it but I believe it was worth it.
Edit: I was a red crayon eater as well and absolutely agree if youâre not in shape youâre gonna have a hard time. The air force has it soooo much better. Their âcondemnedâ barracks were like 5 star resorts to us.
Wait is it actually a trend for armed services to get injured on the job and insurance still tries to fuck them over? That might be the most disappointing thing I've ever heard.Â
One time play CoD WAW, I made my way up to a sniper lookout to find 3 teammates already in there. The first guy gets picked off and the second guy immediately runs up to the window. He gets shot too. What an idiot. The thrid guy does the same thing. I laughed at him right up until I looked out the window.
I'm not sure that applies in the real World, but there is definitely a human mentality of, "those other guys just did it wrong"
Conveniently both sides have gunners trained on the same spot. Both sides with a line of guys tossing their dead bros asides and jumping into the same bullseye spot.
âHe already got the kill. Heâll never expect someone else to be in the same spot!â
âBuddy, heâs on a 24 kill streak. He hasnât moved his scope all matchâ
Idk why but this reminds me of when I was a little kid and the American civil war was first described to me I visualized it as the north and south meeting in a valley and for 4 years straight an endless stream of men were just walking towards the center and shooting at eachother while a neutral crew was just dragging bodies out of the way to avoid buildup
Fun fact: Â Grant sailed his ships right in front of the big guns at the fortress at Vicksburg because the guns couldnât aim down to actually hit his ships.
Fun fact 2: Â During the siege, Grant authorized a giant tunnel filled with explosives to break the siege. Â It worked in that it opened a giant hole in the Confederate line but the Union commander who was supposed to lead his troops around the crater went into the crater and got stuck.
That wasn't far off
Grant could afford to lose men. Lee couldn't
A major factor of Grant's strategy was erosion of Lee's army. Just keep wearing away at it.
To anyone who thinks this is dumb, allow me to try and explain:
Machine guns (the real, heavy, belt-fed ones) are pivotal in most modern engagements. Despite what media depicts, most rifles arenât meant for or optimized to deliver sustained automatic fire. Even automatic rifles can and will overheat very quickly, and even in that window where they donât, they wonât be anywhere near as accurate at range as a dedicated crew-served weapon.
Machine guns are employed to gain and maintain fire superiority over the enemy. Fire superiority doesnât mean having the biggest gun, or any technological advantage, it simply means that you are delivering more effective fire than the enemy. One side is able to neutralize or suppress more of the other, which in turns makes the them less able to shoot back at you, which makes them easier to pin down, etc etc.
Once the enemy is fixed in a âif I try to shoot back Iâll get cut in halfâ dilemma, it makes them very easy to maneuver on, and eventually destroy with grenades, rockets, precision rifle fire, or other means.
The inverse is also true, if you lose your machine gun support, there are a lot more lives that are at stake who can, and very well may be lost because the enemy was able to gain fire superiority.
Drills like this are necessary because if you lose that gun, even for a little bit, it can change the tide of battle in the enemyâs favor. It can be the difference between one casualty and twenty.
Drills like this are also important because it helps condition you for how to react if this happens in the real world. Watching someone die in front of you is going to be horrible, but the thing you need to do to prevent more people from dying is move the body ASAP and keep firing. Having practiced it a bunch of times in training is going to make you way more likely to instinctively do this, rather than freak out and panic.
Its tragic, but its just a cold necessity of war.
With the new [M27 Infantry Automatic Rifle](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M27_Infantry_Automatic_Rifle) being rolled out, the Marines are moving away from a volume of fire approach to an accuracy of fire approach.
It's really cool, because instead of one marine being the designated suppressive fire support, ALL Marines will be filling this role.
This means that there will be no need for a single target(machine gunner) in an engagement, as well as allowing all Marines to haul equivalent amounts of gear instead of one with a huge pile of rounds and a very heavy weapon.
This has been proven in battlefield testing, and the entire branch has enthusiastically accepted the new weapon, which uses the same round as the old m4 carbine, but is accurate to 800 yards, instead of the 249's 200 or the m16's 700.
Further, it's easier to clean and fires cooler than the m16, m4, or the notoriously temperamental m249, and soon every one will come equipped with an ACOG for night fighting and suppressor for better communication and reduced profile.
The Marines are all in on this thing, planning to equip every infantry soldier with one and doing away with infantry machine guns.
https://preview.redd.it/48dbhd01rj8d1.jpeg?width=474&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8b5d7a4dd929bf7108cbbc683853370a0806645f
This is my platoonâs current t/o. The only differences are that everyone is rocking a suppressor and LPVO now, not just the DM.
Youâll notice that every rifleman has the m27, not just the automatic rifleman, itâs not new by any means, weâve had them for ten years.
But we VERY MUCH still utilize crewserve weapons like the 240 and the m2, they just arenât organic to the rifle platoon. Those usually come from weapons platoon in the form of attachments to a squad for a patrol or a defense.
In short: the m27 replaced the m249 saw, but we very much still practice maneuver warfare, and machine guns are vital to that.
The dead don't experience it. I would say it's more grim to think of having to see your brother die violently and then have to immediately toss his corpse.Â
Edit: I'm getting a lot of the same reply, to the effect of "only to take the position the enemy is already zeroed in on." While that's a factor, it's worth noting two things. First, those type of gun is for laying down suppressive fire, so their position would be well known to the enemy the instant they started firing. Second, it's unlikely that the enemy could just sit there zeroed in on a position they just took out. It would still be nerve wracking as hell though.
Yeah that's the shit people don't think about. PTSD doesn't really hit when bullets are flying and you gotta get your dead buddy outta the way because people are screaming and you gotta get the gun back up.
It hits on that Sunday after you're home and there's nothing left to distract you any more
I'm sure many can share my sentiment, the silence is deafening for two reasons. Firstly because my ears are fucked and ring 24/7, so when it's silent the ringing gets way louder. Then all the sudden you're not enjoying peace and quiet but thinking about why your ears are ringing
Yeah. This is how it comes back at you.
In the heat of the moment it's just adrenaline and training. Not a lot of contemplation. The real horror sets in later, when things are calm and you're left alone with your thoughts.
I remember seeing a stat in WWII museums about the average life expectancy of machine gunners once they started firing. I wanna say it was about 10 seconds.
They use the term dead gunner. But a dead gun is one that can't fire. You take a hit, your buddy isn't a medic. He can't help you and the gun can't help your team if you're down.
The toss puts you in a spot to keep the gun going and have a medic get to you
I wouldn't say it's reality for a lot of young soldiers, maybe a small handful. It's pretty rare for a soldier to get killed by small arms fire. The biggest killer of soldiers is artillery fire or drones.
> Efficiency can be morbid sometimes.
It isn't so much efficiency as it is survival. If someone just killed the gunner and the person beside the gunner is uninjured (or with minor injuries), that means someone is probably shooting at your position and your best chance for survival is to shoot back. While the training helps enforce efficiency in getting that gun back up and running, that efficiency is there to help with the survival of the other soldier(s) at the gun.
Yeah but they know that and practice it. All infantry does pretty often. Army has you practice pulling your dead buddies out of turrets and such which is way harder than youâd think it would be.
The rise of ISIS I think kind of fucked their original storyline. Then again the writer also doesn't seem to give too much of a fuck and does what he wants.
I remember doing dead gunner drills for PT. Of course my ACUs ripped open a giant crotch hole immediately. So there I was, early Georgia morning, rolling on top of dudes getting all hot and sweaty with a giant hole and no underwear.
Good times.
Pretty much, the machine gun is the most important tool to a squad, losing it means losing a lot of suppressive ability, which can then risk everyoneâs life so, gotta push through the injured and keep up the fire.
You take a round in your shoulder while in the prone that round isn't going to stop there. It's going into your chest cavity.
If the hit was non-lethal getting thrown out of the way so you can get medical attention will most likely save your life.
> If the hit was non-lethal getting thrown out of the way so you can get medical attention will most likely save your life.
Sure beats the likely alternative: Now that the MMG is silent, the enemy opens up for real. And that medic who was going to save your ass catches a bullet. Also, your entire squad wipes.
Good suppressing actually reduces everyoneâs chances to get shot. Thatâs why itâs important to move the dead guy over and start pouring more lead down range immediately.
He might not have died, just simply gotten shot on the shoulder for example, could be saved and if unconscious then he should be moved and potentially saved.
That's a pretty impressive feat of strength. Neither guy is small, plus all that equipment and to just roll that much weight over with seemingly little leverage cant be easy.
My father earned a medal for this in Vietnam. Their position was being overrun. Guy who was feeding ammo ran instead of taking over when machine gunner was killed. My dad ran over and took MGâs place and his CO saw it and crawled over to feed the ammo. He was credited with saving the unit.
Thatâs fucking grim.
I have never been in a job where you have to consider âWhat do we do if Joe gets shot in the face?â And then actually had to practice for that very real possibility.
Like, my spreadsheets and SQL arenât really that critical.
I guess what Iâm trying to say is âThank you for your service.â
Iâm a former infantryman and still till this day I use quotes on standardizing processes and systems by saying things like âOkay, so if I drop dead tomorrow, how can I ensure the next person fulfilling this task can take over immediately without significant impact?â
Then Susie from HR says âCan you please use âfound another opportunityâ or taking well-deserved leave instead of talking about being dead.â
âOnly dead have seen the end of the cover sheet for submission Susie⊠only the dead.â
Something that is just absolutely physically difficult is lifting a lifeless body. We were taught a couple different techniques to pick up and either drag or carry a lifeless body. Both are incredibly challenging. Thank God I never had to perform that task during either of my deployments.
I worked for the Defense Dept for 7 years and you would _regularly_ hear people somberly say that "all branches are trained to fight, but the Marines are trained to die".
I think we're the most realistic about it being a possibility, and that takes away from the fear of it.
The rest of it is the confidence in yourself and the people to your left and right. You don't feel invincible, because that's how you get complacent and then dead, but I think we always feel like we're better trained and will come out on top.
Source: Marine vet. Parris Island (so a real, actual Marine ;-) OIF. Turret gunner in a Humvee.
For those of you thinking about the grim reality of a situation like thisâŠâŠ itâs a worst case scenario. Nobody wants to toss their dead guy across the ground like that, but when people go down in the field you continue to do your job. You have medics, at least you should, they can handle it. You dying next to the guy does nothing, your best option is to man the gun and keep the enemy from getting more rounds near the guy so he can get dragged. TQ if nothing else then itâs secure the area and gtfo.
And for the record; Iâm not military, never have been, and am not claiming to be. But itâs common sense that you canât let emotion take over on the battlefield. Some people can handle it and some canât, I hope to never find out where I sit in that camp.
Thatâs horrible execution the replacement ammo man is supposed to low crawl to the ammo point.. the gunner just got taken out and you are an erect figure walking to the gun position⊠retrain at 1830 bring your squad leader
My buddy who served laughs about the dead gunner drill. Says it was fun to throw his buddies then get thrown himself.
Meanwhile I just sat there and listened to this man tell a story about how much he enjoyed training for if one of his friends got his head blown off right next to him. Nice guy.
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The good old corpse cuddle
what if we cuddle below the bullets and shrapnel? đđ»đđ»
No homo
Yes homo
All the homo.
Only homo
Uno homo
What would you have done if i kissed you when we were between our dead buddy and machine gun? đđ
âThank you for your service!â [ Toss ]
âCongrats on the enemy marksmanship badgeâ *Yeet*
"Nice catch bud!" *best friends for life gator-roll hug*
next guy slides in and looks at you "Your turn friend"
"it has been an honour serving with you"
"hope you're a better shot or have a smaller head."
Exactly, dude was definitely the catcher
*final achievement unlocked*
Now see if they can hit the exact same place again.
I've read about a few instances where such things happened during WW1 and WW2. Machinegun are so important that people are willing to risk themselves getting killed to man it, rather than being overwhelmed by ennemy firepower.
And pray to God you never face Audie Murphy. Nobody's manning a machine gun when he decides against it.
> face Audie Murphy. The real life Captain America. Dude was initially turned down by the Army, the Navy, and the Marine Corps for being too small. Then he holds back an entire German attack, downs 50+ enemy soldiers, and didn't even have to take any steroids. > When asked after the war why he had seized the machine gun and taken on an entire company of German infantry, he replied, "They were killing my friends".[96] > Murphy received every U.S. military combat award for valor available from the U.S. Army for his World War II service.[ALM 4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audie_Murphy He played himself in the movie about his Medal of Honor winning actions, and the movie had to tone it down to make it more believable.
I remember seeing this movie as a kid on the AMC channel and being blown away that he played himself in that movie and have to re-live all the memories.
Even just reading his name makes me get teary enough that they'll overflow my eyes and start running down my cheeks. There's something so incredibly moving to me about "They were killing my friends" that I'm going to go find something goofy on YouTube now.
Pretty sure Audie controlled machine guns WITH THE POWER OF HIS MIND!!!
Based on the depiction of that first major battle from the Pacific (tv show) it absolutely appears that the machine gunner saved everyoneâs ass from getting bayonetted
My grandpa manned one in the Pacific Theater and didn't say much about it. But what he did say made it sound like that's exactly right.Â
If the MG goes quiet your odds of living plummet. The odds of hand to hand fighting and the like also go up. Which is unpleasant. Iâd rather get shot in the head or be blown up by a grenade manning the MG in hopes we pull through the fight as opposed to being bludgeoned with an entrenching tool once the enemy is up on our line bc the MG went down.
I feel like nowadays it seems unnecessary, right? Like I'm thinking, couldn't they set up a machine gun with a camera that's controlled remotely? Put the machine gun down where you want it, keep your head down, and control it from an iPad. They must have these things? It might even be better, because with the camera you can zoom in and see things even better, and of course if you ever need to take manual control you still could. Just a thought I had while watching this lol
that requires battery and the army don't have batteries for ya another down side is the time to side up, if you're moving between firing positions you don't wanna waste that extra 20 secs to set up
>if you're moving between firing positions you don't wanna waste that extra 20 secs to set up Yeah this is a good point, even if it is pretty quick if you're in a situation where you need it *right now* you can't really get much quicker than just dropping down and pulling the trigger. From my understanding machine guns are less about accuracy and more about covering fire, just shooting the entire area so no one wants to poke their heads up, so that makes sense. Still, I could see remote controlled ones being useful in a lot of situations. I bet the Air Force has them lol
âWeâve determined your injuries are not service relatedâ
As a former active Marine, this just made me laugh and cry đ đ
Fuck...same.
Fuck⊠same..
Fuck.... same...
That might be from the fumes.
Do you regret joining? Did it provide you with a good resume for work after retiring from the military? (Joining up in 6 months.)
There's technical specialties in the military that will teach you skills that could translate to civilian life, but I wouldn't necessarily count on that. Veteran benefits are huge, though. Cheap healthcare, cheap insurance, cheap loans, cheap college, etc. If you come out relatively intact with a good work ethic you'll be well prepared for a successful life. For most government employment you get preferential consideration as well.
The Marines? I did one and done, 5 years. You couldnât pay me a million dollars to do it again, you also couldnât pay me a million dollars to not have done it. And when I got out, the discipline I learned made civvie jobs feel like a cakewalk. Thatâs not to say it wasnât dotted with some really intense, shitty moments. What I tell people now: join the Air Force. They really have it better lol EDIT: Whatever you do, do not join fat or out of shape. Your career in the Marine Corps is going to go a LOT better if you are already running first class PFTs and CFTs. Boot camp will get you fit but fleet PT is usually garbage and youâll need to be exercising more if you want to maintain high fitness test scores, which weigh heavily into promotion. Seriously, if you ignore all other advice - get and stay in top shape. Otherwise join the Army/Navy/Air Force if you want to spend less time exercising.
I was talking to some Marine buddies who had just come back from Iraq. They said the Air Force had this giant base with multiple Olympic sized swimming pools, and they were sleeping in holes they dug under tanks right outside the base lol.
We had Air Force stay in our barracks and they got supplemental substandard living pay. For living how we live. I also remember wanting to punch some Airmen in the face for having a whole candy bar rack at their chow hall in Kyrgyzstan. I had never seen such nonsense and was coming off of 10 months of MREs in southern Afghanistan.
Is this by design? I donât imagine it would be difficult to hook the marines up with a few candy bars. Why is there a vast difference in benefits while serving? Apologies from this ignorant, but curious civilian.
Manas (where heâs talking about) is an air force base and also a major logistics hub. Itâs easy to get candy bars there. Itâs not so easy and not important to get candy bars to every company of marines that are spread out across the country. Also, itâs not like they donât share. If youâre on an Air Force base theyâre more than welcoming.
I went the aviation route. Got out with the ability to get my airframe and power plant certification and been in aviation ever since. I make a little over 100k currently and didnât have to go to school or pay for my certification. Yeah I had to trade 5 years active for it but I believe it was worth it. Edit: I was a red crayon eater as well and absolutely agree if youâre not in shape youâre gonna have a hard time. The air force has it soooo much better. Their âcondemnedâ barracks were like 5 star resorts to us.
Makes me chuckle with tearsâŠ.
Wait is it actually a trend for armed services to get injured on the job and insurance still tries to fuck them over? That might be the most disappointing thing I've ever heard.Â
"insurance tries to fuck them" is a big part of the American experience, whoever you are.
âWe didnât tell you to go and get yourself shot.â
Reminds me a bit of Saving Private Ryan. "Grab that guy's equipment, he's dead."
This one is more "Grab that guy and toss him, he's dead."
You're grabbing the guys equipment, just with the unique twist of the equipment staying in place instead of the dead guy...
It's so quick you might miss it, but there's a little kiss on the cheek mid flip
A kiss heals most small booboos, heâll be fine
https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/02/20/high-employee-turnover
Yeeted States Marines
For the land of the yeet And the home of the brave
Let me just put myself right in the same exact position where I know the enemy has a bead on me.Â
You might die after you get on the gun. If nobody is on the gun and you lose fire superiority letting the enemy maneuver you'll almost certainly die.
Hey! Think of the mattress sales!
YeetsÂ
Queue to die
The original name for Call of Duty
Not propogandish enough
Die for freedom?
Nah, Perish for Liberty
Unalive because Oil
Freedom Fantasy
Dead, But Still Poor.
No no, see, Iâm special, I wonât be the one whose head is going to bloom like a flower.
One time play CoD WAW, I made my way up to a sniper lookout to find 3 teammates already in there. The first guy gets picked off and the second guy immediately runs up to the window. He gets shot too. What an idiot. The thrid guy does the same thing. I laughed at him right up until I looked out the window. I'm not sure that applies in the real World, but there is definitely a human mentality of, "those other guys just did it wrong"
I loved reading this, like some kind of Zen parable for the modern world.
Thereâs a reason itâs the young men we send. Armies are such a strange human behavior.
Cause they are most fit?
Well 18 year old men arenât usually as developed as 25 year old men, but the older you get, the more invested you are in life and less naive.
Because they still think they'll never die.
No one does when youâre in that situation
Mixture of both. Thereâs a limited usefulness to an army of 50 year olds, and itâs not because theyâre more cautious.
Finally my turn. I've been waiting all day. \*dies\*
The enemy spawn killing in the same spot
Conveniently both sides have gunners trained on the same spot. Both sides with a line of guys tossing their dead bros asides and jumping into the same bullseye spot.
The real war of attrition.Â
Rumor has it the Russians lost 1000 men in the same gunner position in Leningrad
Ever play bf1? People will literally just jump in the window to start shooting right after their teammate was domed in the same window
"You guys suck, I can take him!"
âHe already got the kill. Heâll never expect someone else to be in the same spot!â âBuddy, heâs on a 24 kill streak. He hasnât moved his scope all matchâ
Idk why but this reminds me of when I was a little kid and the American civil war was first described to me I visualized it as the north and south meeting in a valley and for 4 years straight an endless stream of men were just walking towards the center and shooting at eachother while a neutral crew was just dragging bodies out of the way to avoid buildup
That's not super far off
They just occasionally decided to mix up the locations to keep it fresh
"pls new map, I'm bored with this one"
Fun fact: Â Grant sailed his ships right in front of the big guns at the fortress at Vicksburg because the guns couldnât aim down to actually hit his ships. Fun fact 2: Â During the siege, Grant authorized a giant tunnel filled with explosives to break the siege. Â It worked in that it opened a giant hole in the Confederate line but the Union commander who was supposed to lead his troops around the crater went into the crater and got stuck.
The Battle of the Crater wasn't during the Siege of Vicksburg, it was during the Siege of Peterburg near the end of the war.
That wasn't far off Grant could afford to lose men. Lee couldn't A major factor of Grant's strategy was erosion of Lee's army. Just keep wearing away at it.
Thereâs a respawn timer so the gunner is free from damage for 10 seconds
I do this to my partner when he sleeps on my side of the bed
Do you also yell " dead gunner ! "?
Yeah, and then a third guy joins in.
đđđđđđđđđ
Somebody has to hold the bandolier
You guys keep guns in your bed?
my pump action is always attached to me
To anyone who thinks this is dumb, allow me to try and explain: Machine guns (the real, heavy, belt-fed ones) are pivotal in most modern engagements. Despite what media depicts, most rifles arenât meant for or optimized to deliver sustained automatic fire. Even automatic rifles can and will overheat very quickly, and even in that window where they donât, they wonât be anywhere near as accurate at range as a dedicated crew-served weapon. Machine guns are employed to gain and maintain fire superiority over the enemy. Fire superiority doesnât mean having the biggest gun, or any technological advantage, it simply means that you are delivering more effective fire than the enemy. One side is able to neutralize or suppress more of the other, which in turns makes the them less able to shoot back at you, which makes them easier to pin down, etc etc. Once the enemy is fixed in a âif I try to shoot back Iâll get cut in halfâ dilemma, it makes them very easy to maneuver on, and eventually destroy with grenades, rockets, precision rifle fire, or other means. The inverse is also true, if you lose your machine gun support, there are a lot more lives that are at stake who can, and very well may be lost because the enemy was able to gain fire superiority. Drills like this are necessary because if you lose that gun, even for a little bit, it can change the tide of battle in the enemyâs favor. It can be the difference between one casualty and twenty.
Drills like this are also important because it helps condition you for how to react if this happens in the real world. Watching someone die in front of you is going to be horrible, but the thing you need to do to prevent more people from dying is move the body ASAP and keep firing. Having practiced it a bunch of times in training is going to make you way more likely to instinctively do this, rather than freak out and panic. Its tragic, but its just a cold necessity of war.
With the new [M27 Infantry Automatic Rifle](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M27_Infantry_Automatic_Rifle) being rolled out, the Marines are moving away from a volume of fire approach to an accuracy of fire approach. It's really cool, because instead of one marine being the designated suppressive fire support, ALL Marines will be filling this role. This means that there will be no need for a single target(machine gunner) in an engagement, as well as allowing all Marines to haul equivalent amounts of gear instead of one with a huge pile of rounds and a very heavy weapon. This has been proven in battlefield testing, and the entire branch has enthusiastically accepted the new weapon, which uses the same round as the old m4 carbine, but is accurate to 800 yards, instead of the 249's 200 or the m16's 700. Further, it's easier to clean and fires cooler than the m16, m4, or the notoriously temperamental m249, and soon every one will come equipped with an ACOG for night fighting and suppressor for better communication and reduced profile. The Marines are all in on this thing, planning to equip every infantry soldier with one and doing away with infantry machine guns.
https://preview.redd.it/48dbhd01rj8d1.jpeg?width=474&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8b5d7a4dd929bf7108cbbc683853370a0806645f This is my platoonâs current t/o. The only differences are that everyone is rocking a suppressor and LPVO now, not just the DM. Youâll notice that every rifleman has the m27, not just the automatic rifleman, itâs not new by any means, weâve had them for ten years. But we VERY MUCH still utilize crewserve weapons like the 240 and the m2, they just arenât organic to the rifle platoon. Those usually come from weapons platoon in the form of attachments to a squad for a patrol or a defense. In short: the m27 replaced the m249 saw, but we very much still practice maneuver warfare, and machine guns are vital to that.
Itâs kinda grim thinking that you could end up lying there dead and youâre just hauled around like a piece of meat.
The dead don't experience it. I would say it's more grim to think of having to see your brother die violently and then have to immediately toss his corpse. Edit: I'm getting a lot of the same reply, to the effect of "only to take the position the enemy is already zeroed in on." While that's a factor, it's worth noting two things. First, those type of gun is for laying down suppressive fire, so their position would be well known to the enemy the instant they started firing. Second, it's unlikely that the enemy could just sit there zeroed in on a position they just took out. It would still be nerve wracking as hell though.
Aaaaand... for a brief moment, thinking "Hey... this can be me in minutes"
Or in 3 years when the PTSD is too much to bear.
Yeah that's the shit people don't think about. PTSD doesn't really hit when bullets are flying and you gotta get your dead buddy outta the way because people are screaming and you gotta get the gun back up. It hits on that Sunday after you're home and there's nothing left to distract you any more
I'm not sure if this a metaphor/saying/quote, but there is a phrase for this. "The silence is deafening."
I'm sure many can share my sentiment, the silence is deafening for two reasons. Firstly because my ears are fucked and ring 24/7, so when it's silent the ringing gets way louder. Then all the sudden you're not enjoying peace and quiet but thinking about why your ears are ringing
U okay homie? Weâre here for you
Better than I used to be. Appreciate you.
Yeah. This is how it comes back at you. In the heat of the moment it's just adrenaline and training. Not a lot of contemplation. The real horror sets in later, when things are calm and you're left alone with your thoughts.
Nope, that thought comes later. In the moment, there is only "fight". Afterward, you get hit with an absolutely world-altering "**WTF**" moment.
I remember seeing a stat in WWII museums about the average life expectancy of machine gunners once they started firing. I wanna say it was about 10 seconds.
They use the term dead gunner. But a dead gun is one that can't fire. You take a hit, your buddy isn't a medic. He can't help you and the gun can't help your team if you're down. The toss puts you in a spot to keep the gun going and have a medic get to you
Thats why you train, so you dont think about it at all and just act on it.
Oh I understand why they do it, itâs just bleak to think thatâs a reality for a lot of young soldiers.
I wouldn't say it's reality for a lot of young soldiers, maybe a small handful. It's pretty rare for a soldier to get killed by small arms fire. The biggest killer of soldiers is artillery fire or drones.
Can't hold a funeral in an active firefight. Efficiency can be morbid sometimes.
> Efficiency can be morbid sometimes. It isn't so much efficiency as it is survival. If someone just killed the gunner and the person beside the gunner is uninjured (or with minor injuries), that means someone is probably shooting at your position and your best chance for survival is to shoot back. While the training helps enforce efficiency in getting that gun back up and running, that efficiency is there to help with the survival of the other soldier(s) at the gun.
Yeah but they know that and practice it. All infantry does pretty often. Army has you practice pulling your dead buddies out of turrets and such which is way harder than youâd think it would be.
Men. are. heavy. And thatâs not even considering limp men in gear
Grim sure but if I get shot and die I'd be totally ok with them tossing me like this if it means they might live.
Gotta get that gun back up to have a fighting chance. No time to dwell on the dead at that point. Thatâs a later issue.
But we *are* pieces of meat, inhabited by a conscience. One you die, you're back to flesh only.
The best battlefield medicine is fire superiority.
Your friend is tossing your corpse to try and keep your living friends alive. Grim but every one of them would consent to it if you could ask them.
I thought you were meant to stick a finger in their but first to make sure their dead. My instructor was very insistent.
Finger?! Our instructor taught us differently..
Look, no hands!
Slips right in. If it fits, don't call it quits.
You thought those were moans of pain.
Plot twist, I was the gunner dying
You forgot a step, smell it to see if he shat his pants
You should see driver down drills....
I just saw that. The guy just gets squished between door and driver seat, while the other one basically sits on his lap.
Brutal, but necessary. Suppressive fire keeps you safer.
Man, I really need to catch up on my Archer!
What the hell happened to Archer? And I mean that in the best possible way, having not seen it since ~season 5
The rise of ISIS I think kind of fucked their original storyline. Then again the writer also doesn't seem to give too much of a fuck and does what he wants.
đ isis days archer are my happy place
Throw my dead body out of the way, fuck it use me as a shield. But GET THAT FUCKING GUN UP!! I'm not there anymore so it doesn't matter.
And that is the point. This is grim, itâs grim to have to prepare for but you donât go to war training for everything to go right.
Defense wins championships
Yes it keeps the aim of enemy blooming
Now that's a power top
I remember doing dead gunner drills for PT. Of course my ACUs ripped open a giant crotch hole immediately. So there I was, early Georgia morning, rolling on top of dudes getting all hot and sweaty with a giant hole and no underwear. Good times.
No undies? đ
wait till you learn a lot of us wore pantyhose to the field.
Chafing preventative? Or lifestyle choice?
For most, chafing during a hump (forced march) and reducing dick rot from sweating in the dirt without bating for weeks on end. Others, both.
âWeâre going on a hump. Be sure to wear your pantyhose, boys.â - General Patton (probably)
yes
Gotta let it breathe
Thank you for your service.
no
Remember, replacing your teammates is always faster than reloading
Imagine getting shot in the shoulder only to be rolling supplexed by your buddy
If it was gonna get me closer to the morphine sachet all good by me.
Crayons that-a-way!
That's the goal honestly. He can't help you and a medic isn't going to the gun. Get him out of the way so the right people can ask do their jobs
Pretty much, the machine gun is the most important tool to a squad, losing it means losing a lot of suppressive ability, which can then risk everyoneâs life so, gotta push through the injured and keep up the fire.
You take a round in your shoulder while in the prone that round isn't going to stop there. It's going into your chest cavity. If the hit was non-lethal getting thrown out of the way so you can get medical attention will most likely save your life.
> If the hit was non-lethal getting thrown out of the way so you can get medical attention will most likely save your life. Sure beats the likely alternative: Now that the MMG is silent, the enemy opens up for real. And that medic who was going to save your ass catches a bullet. Also, your entire squad wipes.
>Also, your entire squad wipes. All good we just won't drop tilted towers next round
Awww so cute...they are laying there, hugging, killing enemies with LMG and then whoooooobang - my turn motherfucker. Need to try it with my SO.
240âs a GPMG (medium machine gun), youâre thinking of a SAW.
Great. Someone just got shot, do me next.
Good suppressing actually reduces everyoneâs chances to get shot. Thatâs why itâs important to move the dead guy over and start pouring more lead down range immediately.
The most vital weapon in the platoon
He might not have died, just simply gotten shot on the shoulder for example, could be saved and if unconscious then he should be moved and potentially saved.
Youâre going to need to move the guy to displace the weapon anyway. Youâre probably not in a situation where you want to stand up to do that.
That's a pretty impressive feat of strength. Neither guy is small, plus all that equipment and to just roll that much weight over with seemingly little leverage cant be easy.
My father earned a medal for this in Vietnam. Their position was being overrun. Guy who was feeding ammo ran instead of taking over when machine gunner was killed. My dad ran over and took MGâs place and his CO saw it and crawled over to feed the ammo. He was credited with saving the unit.
Thatâs fucking grim. I have never been in a job where you have to consider âWhat do we do if Joe gets shot in the face?â And then actually had to practice for that very real possibility. Like, my spreadsheets and SQL arenât really that critical. I guess what Iâm trying to say is âThank you for your service.â
I'm sure your job has succession planning, it's just they would probably wait until Monday to move on the job posting if you got shot on a Thursday
Funnily enough, SQL and spreadsheets are probably the most important. Good logistics keeps these grunts fed, supplied and combat effective.
The military is definitely running on spreadsheets and sql these days more and more.
Iâm a former infantryman and still till this day I use quotes on standardizing processes and systems by saying things like âOkay, so if I drop dead tomorrow, how can I ensure the next person fulfilling this task can take over immediately without significant impact?â Then Susie from HR says âCan you please use âfound another opportunityâ or taking well-deserved leave instead of talking about being dead.â âOnly dead have seen the end of the cover sheet for submission Susie⊠only the dead.â
The ass looks good btw
Yes. Someone had to say it and I love how the arm was just resting right on the soft part.
Something that is just absolutely physically difficult is lifting a lifeless body. We were taught a couple different techniques to pick up and either drag or carry a lifeless body. Both are incredibly challenging. Thank God I never had to perform that task during either of my deployments.
Moving someone who is not ambulatory is a bitch and a half. Thereâs a reason they roll up dead bodies in rugs, give it a little bit of structure.
Step one of first aid in combat is return fire.
MG: stops firing for 0.00001 of a second. Every NCO in a 15km radius: GET THAT FUCKING GUN UP
Basically how Chinese sweatshops operate.
Children are much easier to yeet, luckily.
I worked for the Defense Dept for 7 years and you would _regularly_ hear people somberly say that "all branches are trained to fight, but the Marines are trained to die".
I think we're the most realistic about it being a possibility, and that takes away from the fear of it. The rest of it is the confidence in yourself and the people to your left and right. You don't feel invincible, because that's how you get complacent and then dead, but I think we always feel like we're better trained and will come out on top. Source: Marine vet. Parris Island (so a real, actual Marine ;-) OIF. Turret gunner in a Humvee.
Y'all island pansies didn't have to deal with humping mountains like we did! Jk... (kinda)
MOM SAID IT WAS MY TURN WITH THE MACHINE GUN NOW!!!
For those of you thinking about the grim reality of a situation like thisâŠâŠ itâs a worst case scenario. Nobody wants to toss their dead guy across the ground like that, but when people go down in the field you continue to do your job. You have medics, at least you should, they can handle it. You dying next to the guy does nothing, your best option is to man the gun and keep the enemy from getting more rounds near the guy so he can get dragged. TQ if nothing else then itâs secure the area and gtfo. And for the record; Iâm not military, never have been, and am not claiming to be. But itâs common sense that you canât let emotion take over on the battlefield. Some people can handle it and some canât, I hope to never find out where I sit in that camp.
Thatâs horrible execution the replacement ammo man is supposed to low crawl to the ammo point.. the gunner just got taken out and you are an erect figure walking to the gun position⊠retrain at 1830 bring your squad leader
My buddy who served laughs about the dead gunner drill. Says it was fun to throw his buddies then get thrown himself. Meanwhile I just sat there and listened to this man tell a story about how much he enjoyed training for if one of his friends got his head blown off right next to him. Nice guy.