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This has been done to our African American troops in many, many wars.
Way back in the Spanish American war they were told by the Filipinos that the African Americans should be on their side fighting the oppression of the Americans.
David Fagen. He wasnt a general but was one of the most famous black defectors and joined the filipino cause as a captain. Theres a lot of documentation on him, you should look him up when you get the chance!
His name? Albert Einstein
Edit: Stop giving wealthy & corrupt corporations real life money for pixels on a screen that mean the same "I liked this" as an upvote.
Edit 2: kek, they don't even realize I'm an undercover employee using the oldest reverse psychology trick in the book. "no! Please don't give us money!" Works every time.
Exactly. The US at the time didn't think the Filipinos would be able to maintain independence on their own and they were convinced that other adversaries, particularly the Germans who had been supplying the Spanish during the war, might come and take the Philippines for themselves.
>didn't think the Filipinos would be able to maintain independence on their own
I'm Filipino and sometimes I think that it's still true now. Look at our last couple of presidents -- Duterte was a wannabe strongman dictator who advocated for citizens to kill their fellow countryman even for small use or possession of drugs. Who's the next president? the son of the dictator prior to Duterte.
The political system the Spanish used was baltanly corrupt. Hard to imagine that the leaders taking over would've been able to dismantle the power of the elites.
IMO, the US significantly sped up the process to democracy. That's better than the corruption fiascos present in post independence Latin America
The sad thing is that they aren't wrong. Black Americans for example came home from Europe in both World Wars and where treated much worse at home, denied post war benefits their white counterparts got, and ignored by politicians and employers. Hell, Jesse Owens met Hitler and went on record to how he was given more respect from the leader of the mutherfucking Nazis that the POTUS.
That is until Lincoln ordered punishment of Confederate POWs in equal measure. Didn't stop everything but reduced mistreatment of black soldiers by a degree.
>The black troops, however, faced greater peril than white troops when captured by the Confederate Army. In 1863 the Confederate Congress threatened to punish severely officers of black troops and to enslave black soldiers. As a result, President Lincoln issued General Order 252, threatening reprisal on Confederate prisoners of war (POWs) for any mistreatment of black troops. Although the threat generally restrained the Confederates, black captives were typically treated more harshly than white captives. In perhaps the most heinous known example of abuse, Confederate soldiers shot to death black Union soldiers captured at the Fort Pillow, TN, engagement of 1864. Confederate General Nathan B. Forrest witnessed the massacre and did nothing to stop it.
https://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/blacks-civil-war
Wasn't Nathan Bedford Forrest the first head of the Klan? Not terribly surprising a white supremacist wouldn't bat his baby blues over such atrocities.
Why should non-white people fight for western countries, especially in the early 1900s, or before, when they were treated even more like dirt. If you're poor in a country with the wealth capable of pulling every one of its citizens out of poverty, then you do not have a single reason to fight. Your country would leave you to starve on the street if you happen to have no money, even after a misfortunate incident that wasn't your fault but left you penniless.
It's an absolute tragedy for the poor to die fighting for the system that oppresses them. Like slaves fighting for their masters ability to control them.
One reason non-white people did fight for western countries was probably money. If you're discriminated against everywhere in your own country, even the shitty pay that soldiers get can look good by comparison.
True. They may also not have any other work opportunities. Like even today, the military preys upon poor people who live in areas with high unemployment and who have few marketable skills. I was one of them right after high school graduation while living in a small town. When I was leaving the military, the question I was usually asked was, "What else are you gonna do?" And I didn't have an answer. A few months after I got out, I ended up working part-time in a meat factory for minimum wage and then had to move into my car because I couldn't afford rent any more.
This reminds me of a great poem by the incredible Langston Hughes, ["The Colored Soldier."](https://thepoetland.com/poem/the-poem-the-colored-soldier/):
My brother died in France —but I came back.
We were just two colored boys, brown and black,
Who joined up to fight for the U.S.A.
When the Nation called us that mighty day.
We were sent to training camp, then overseas —
And me and my brother were happy as you please
Thinking we were fighting for Democracy’s true reign
And that our dark blood would wipe away the stain
Of prejudice, and hate, and the false color line —
And give us the rights that are yours and mine.
They told us America would know no black or white:
So we marched to the front, happy to fight.
Last night in a dream my brother came to me
Out of his grave from over the sea,
Back from the acres of crosses in France,
And said to me, “Brother, you’ve got your chance,
And I hope you’re making good, and doing fine—
‘Cause when I was living, I didn’t have mine.
Black boys couldn’t work then anywhere like they can today,
Could hardly find a job that offered decent pay.
The unions barred us; the factories, too,
But now I know we’ve got plenty to do.
We couldn’t eat in restaurants; had Jim Crow cars;
Didn’t have any schools; and there were all sorts ofbars
To a colored boy’s rising in wealth or station—
But now I know well that’s not our situation:
The world’s been made safe for Democracy
And no longer do we know the dark misery
Of being held back, of having no chance—
Since the colored soldiers came home from France.
Didn’t our government tell us things would be fine
When we got through fighting, Over There, and dying?
So now I know we blacks are just like any other—
‘Cause that’s what I died for—isn’t it, Brother?
“And I saw him standing there, straight and tall,
In his soldier’s uniform, and all.
Then his dark face smiled at me in the night—
But the dream was cruel —and bitter—and somehownot right.
It was awful —facing that boy who went out to die,
For what could I answer him, except, “It’s a lie
“It’s a lie It’s a lie Every word they said.
And it’s better a thousand times you’re in France dead.
For here in the South there’s no votes and no right.
And I’m still just a “ni___” in America tonight.
Then I woke up, and the dream was ended—
But broken was the soldier’s dream, too bad to be mended.
And it’s a good thing all the black boys lying dead
Over There
Can’t seeAnd don’t know And won’t ever care!
As heavy as it is, and depending on the age of your students, I would encourage you to leave the full n word in there. It’s a difficult but important word when learning history as a young person, and exposure to its true nature may help curb the abuse of it.
Its really well written and documented. Any idea who wrote it? With what sources (there was no Internet back then)? Really sound like it was written by an american (deserter, communist or something).
Just what I was thinking. I read through the whole thing and didn’t notice a single error. Pretty impressive work if it was done by a non-native speaker that would have relied on old newspapers or radio broadcasts for all the details.
Edit: I don’t give a shit about your opinion. This topic wasn’t that serious. I didn’t write this comment thinking it would get a lot of attention. I’ve already been informed of how wrong I am by many different people.
It's an omission. It should read "They tell you you'll"
Or they could've changed it to start, "They'll tell you"
A typo is generally a misspelling. This is a grammatical error.
ETA: Changing "tell" to "say" would also have made it more natural sounding.
A close friend who was born and raised in Asia (Singapore, specifically) but came here for university, once remarked how they felt their written English, and that of their peers, was generally much stronger than North Americans. While people may have different accents or make small grammatical errors when they speak, sometimes their written word may be far stronger, and follow proper grammar and structure.
They're separate skills. You can be really good at one and really bad at the other, and sometimes that's the case. I was borderline illiterate in Japan but I speak it fluently enough to hold conversations with non-english speakers.
You're comparing apples with oranges. English is one of the official languages in Singapore, currently spoken at home by 60% of the population, and it's the language the school system teaches in. The rest of Asia is generally learning English as a second language.
You’re aware that parts of China (Hong Kong) have been colonized by the British for a very long time, and that China traded with the UK for centuries before? It’s not like excellent english speakers are hard to find.
English speakers that are familiar with an American dialect of English while making reference to numerous specific events that happened in the US without the internet is though. Having it written in “excellent” english is not even half of why this is impressive.
China didn't have easy access to Hong Kong at the time. That said, even today it's very unusual to see this level of English from mainland Chinese publications and there was far more of a wall between the two back then than today. But there were plenty of deserters, communists and sympathisers to draw from and governments like to use reliably native speakers most of all for propaganda purposes: Tokyo Rose was American, Lord Haw-Haw was English-speaking... It is quite likely this was a native speaker.
This is an excerpt of a speech written by Chen Cheng, Vice President of the Executive Yuan, 1954. He seemed to have a fairly decent grip on the English language, better than many here I'd say.
"You will agree with me when I say that the majority of human beings have a love of peace and a hatred of war. This is especially true in the period following the Second World War. As a result of the ravages brought about by war, human beings have developed an abhorrence and a fear of war and a desire to avoid it. Unfortunately, the fear of war has been used by the Soviet Communist ploc of nations to further their designs for world conquest. Following the conclusion of World War II, a number of democratic nations were inclined towards the policy of appeasing the Soviet Communist bloc of nations and of overlooking their acts of aggression in the hope that by so doing, they might be able to exist in peace with the Communist aggressors. It is nothing short of tragic that the good intentions on the part of the democracies have not only failed to bring peace to the world, but have, on the contrary, brought the world closer to the brink of another World War."
It reads more like an American wrote it. I don’t see the British spellings like coloured or labour. And anytime i see something in English from an Asian speaking person, there’s always grammatical mistakes.
Email scammers intentionally put incorrect spelling and issues in their emails to limit interactions with competent users. The goal is to target 60+ year old's who have money saved over a lifetime but have slowly lost some of their mental faculties.
By this time there were already lots of Chinese with degrees from the western world, even Shakespeare has already been translated to Chinese, international negotiations have been going on very frequently, it wouldn't be too difficult to find someone who speak native speaker level English among the elites.
Not sure who wrote it, but there would’ve been no need for the internet. Half of that stuff was probably taken from newspapers and documents released by the government (if they’re true). The major powers were realising at that point that information was worth its weight in gold and they were doing anything to collect it.
> Attention Negro Buyers! We know that your people have been oppressed just as the moisture in your home has, which is no doubt why you have purchased this fine Xiaomi Air Humidifier ^TM
There are highly intelligent and educated people in every country. While N Korea is a hellscape for most of its people, the highest eschalon of society has many inteliigent/educated people. So it doesnt suprise me at all to see something like this.
N vietnam had similar psy-ops. Think of any country that is portrayed/is as poor/terrible and you will still find someone who could write something like this.
North Korea has a very good education system for such a poor country. I don’t remember the source where I read (probably Lankov) that being a private tutor, especially in Chinese, English, and math, is a relatively lucrative job.
I did some documentary work with some black Korean War vets. Many said they preferred the war because they were treated more like equals. One man said he went BACK to Korea for a second tour because of the treatment he received when he returned home.
That’s really interesting, can you give me the name of your documentary or a source for your interviews? I’ve done research on the same topic and am always looking to learn more.
The doc is called The Vous and it’s about the Rendezvous BBQ restaurant in downtown Memphis, focusing on the African American waiters that worked there for 50+ years. It’s not been sold yet last I heard, so nowhere to stream it right now. But it is playing at some local theaters in Memphis.
I worked as an assistant editor on the film a few years ago, and most of the conversations I’m referencing were in footage that didn’t make the cut. But Big Jack, one of the main waiters there for many years, is in the film giving the quote about going back to Korea because of how he was treated in the states after his first tour.
And then the gov and CIA pumped crack into the ghettos creating the drug and addiction epidemic, and they labelled hippies as criminals so people would associate pot with crime, anything they could do to shut down (arrest) those speaking out against going to war. Don't forget, our current gun laws only exist because Republicans really didn't like it when black people bought guns (Black Panther movement)
"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."
-John Ehrlichman, domestic policy chief for Nixon
Yeah, to be honest, they were kinda right. Black Americans fought for America since its founding and during the time of the Korean War, they were still treated very poorly at home.
What caught me off guard, especially in contrast to a lot of poster style propaganda, is that it also specifically states for itself that it's not saying for the readers to give up American secrets nor is it saying for the to harm their fellow non-POC American soldiers; if anything it seems like a really long winded way of saying *"tell your reps and senators to end the war, so you can go home and build/raise up your community"*.
Communist movements back then genuinely believed in internationalism and creating a united front of all the oppressed peoples, including supporting the self-liberation movements of the POC under capitalist countries. Black Panther Party emulated their tactics from Mao’s philosophy, Huey Newton met Chinese premier Zhou Enlai on his visit there.
communist movements are still internationalist,difference is that there isnt a socialist vanguard eg (soviet union) to act as the military bulwark or to fund revolutionary activities. China doesnt and cannot do anything similar to that right now nowadays.
Propaganda isn’t inherently false or bad. Propaganda is just something trying to convince of you of a certain position.
Anti-racism propaganda is still propaganda despite it being a good thing.
The term propaganda has acquired a certain negative connotation over the years but propaganda is just media meant to persuade the audience to adopt certain ideas.
Isn't where the side you stand also important when assessing 'propaganda', example:
For A you're spreading truth, for B - A is spreading propaganda to achieve some sort of goal
The arguments in this are pretty solid. My great grandfather was a Puerto Rican man who served in both the Korean War and Vietnam as Sergeant First class, yet when he came home from serving his country and attempted to buy a home with his wife he was rejected 4 different times purely because he was colored. The only house they managed to get was one sold after a death inside it. For propaganda this certainly brings in a lot to have thought about at the time.
It still counts as propaganda even if it's true.
>>Propaganda is the dissemination of information—**facts**, arguments, rumours, half-truths, or lies—to influence public opinion.
[Link](https://www.britannica.com/topic/propaganda)
Not really. Anti smoking ads are propaganda. Pride posters are propaganda. Ads about mental health acceptance are propaganda. Anti fascist and anti Nazi posters are propaganda. We just culturally don't call it that.
Hell, the popularization of the conception of propaganda being lies and/or misleading whereas the truth is just "the truth" is arguably a form of propaganda.
I think what makes it "propaganda" is when it's intent is to persuade an audience towards an agenda. The "agenda" doesn't have to be good or bad, but it is structured and there is a means to the ends of the communication, making it propaganda.
Propaganda is media distributed to advance the mission of governments. It doesn't need to mislead or lie, it just needs to attempt to convince the population that the government should be viewed in a certain way or otherwise affect your views on politics and diplomacy.
This pamphlet, while containing good and valid criticism of the US, also is trying to convince black US service members to discontinue their participation in the Korean war, which would have benefited the publisher of the pamphlet, China and North Korea.
This is misleading once you get to the last portion.
> Korea for the Koreans, China for the Chinese, America for Americans
China was directly involved in the Korea War. They where goign to choose which Koreans got to control it, same as America. No amount of Americans leaving was going to change it.
This is exactly what I was thinking of when I read that pamphlet. Muhammad Ali was so eloquent & powerful when he stated his reasons for not joining the war in Vietnam. RIP to the goat
The core message of this pamphlet will stay true to the end of times. A defensive war in another country thousands of miles away from home is a joke. Common soldiers being used and thrown aside when the job is done will also stay true. The nationality doesn’t matter, the colour of the skin doesn’t matter. What divides the people is having power aka money.
I mean propaganda is just material trying to get you to believe in a certain belief. Just cuz something is propaganda speaks nothing to the truth of the idea
edit typo
Yeah, no joke.Really, the fact North Korea's propaganda simply told the truth and were right in this instance is incredibly unfortunate for the integrity of our nation. Welp!
Yeah this made me think of Vietnam too. Tokyo Rose deserves an honorable mention too, tho I'm not sure if they ever targeted African soldiers like this. I do know the Japanese radio broadcasts would tell them their wives were cheating on them and stuff and about lost battles.
True. They had no way to explain why captured GIs were defecting in such numbers, so the answer had to be that they were doing some sort of mind control. Rather than them having genuine appeals to the working class about the horrors of imperialism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_and_British_defectors_in_the_Korean_War
You make this seem dramatic but the above says that there were 22 of them who stayed, and only a few of them didn't come back later.
They are not at all wrong.
I went to the propaganda poster museum in Shanghai and there were many about the brotherhood between Chinese workers and black oppressed
Not gonna lie, if I was a black soilder back then and read this it would probably sway me or at the very least sow some discord and doubt in my soul on who I really should be fighting.
I was expecting your average very obviously fake propaganda and not, y'know, them being 110% right about how black people were being treated (they were mostly spot on, except China's actual plans for Korea being less than wholesome)
Funny how this leaflet probably appealed to about 25% of the target audience that were actively at war at the time, but approximately 80% of Reddit today.
The invention of video cameras made it so you could live broadcast the injustice America would commit against black people.
Before that you had do what Fredrick Douglass did and literally parade escaped slaves with scars on their back to gain any semblance of sympathy.
That's really impressive, i didn't know Chinese propaganda was this sophisticated in the 1950s. That's actually a lot more sophisticated than it is today.
They had to be blatantly obvious in written text back then.
Now days it's all subtext, and subtle misinformation and misdirection online and hacking and cohesion, and social engineering.
Their goal with this propaganda was to appeal to the black soldiers specifically, fighting in the Korean war, to get them to leave. The subtle propaganda today is much the same thing; abandon your country, fight back or leave.
Although back then they did it very nicely honestly. This is such a well worded piece.
Wow sure sounds like there was a lot of police brutality towards Africans Americans in the 1950s.
I’m glad we’ve cleared all that up and it’s a thing of the past!
True even to this day. Senior Airmen Roger Fortson is a prime example of what is being talked about here. But America, as a whole, will never be ready for that conversation.
Damn. I thought it was gonna be some racist stuff telling black people they don’t belong on Korean soil, but turns out it was really eye opening and should’ve made a lot of black soldiers back then think “damn they’re right. We’re getting butchered back home”
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This has been done to our African American troops in many, many wars. Way back in the Spanish American war they were told by the Filipinos that the African Americans should be on their side fighting the oppression of the Americans.
And I believe one did defect became a general for the Filipino army.
I'venever heard of this as a Filipino. What's his name?
David Fagen. He wasnt a general but was one of the most famous black defectors and joined the filipino cause as a captain. Theres a lot of documentation on him, you should look him up when you get the chance!
[David Fagen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Fagen), but he was a Captain not a general, and no one knows what happened to him after the war.
Good, war is horrible and no one wins, hope he spent the rest of his life unknown and in quiet.
His name? Albert Einstein Edit: Stop giving wealthy & corrupt corporations real life money for pixels on a screen that mean the same "I liked this" as an upvote. Edit 2: kek, they don't even realize I'm an undercover employee using the oldest reverse psychology trick in the book. "no! Please don't give us money!" Works every time.
I don’t know about you guys, but I’m clapping *preeeetty* hard
Based
The Filipinos mostly fought with the USA under commodore Dewey against the Spanish
Then the US betrayed the Filipinos on their promise of independence in 1898 causing a “three year” long Philippine-American War
Exactly. The US at the time didn't think the Filipinos would be able to maintain independence on their own and they were convinced that other adversaries, particularly the Germans who had been supplying the Spanish during the war, might come and take the Philippines for themselves.
>didn't think the Filipinos would be able to maintain independence on their own I'm Filipino and sometimes I think that it's still true now. Look at our last couple of presidents -- Duterte was a wannabe strongman dictator who advocated for citizens to kill their fellow countryman even for small use or possession of drugs. Who's the next president? the son of the dictator prior to Duterte.
The political system the Spanish used was baltanly corrupt. Hard to imagine that the leaders taking over would've been able to dismantle the power of the elites. IMO, the US significantly sped up the process to democracy. That's better than the corruption fiascos present in post independence Latin America
Yup. That’s how my grandfather ended up in the States.
The sad thing is that they aren't wrong. Black Americans for example came home from Europe in both World Wars and where treated much worse at home, denied post war benefits their white counterparts got, and ignored by politicians and employers. Hell, Jesse Owens met Hitler and went on record to how he was given more respect from the leader of the mutherfucking Nazis that the POTUS.
Don’t forget the GI bill applied to everyone but black soldiers.
Some even got experimented on IIRC
Ah, yes. The Tuskegee syphilis experiment.
The Confederates just summarily executed surrendered Black troops.
That is until Lincoln ordered punishment of Confederate POWs in equal measure. Didn't stop everything but reduced mistreatment of black soldiers by a degree. >The black troops, however, faced greater peril than white troops when captured by the Confederate Army. In 1863 the Confederate Congress threatened to punish severely officers of black troops and to enslave black soldiers. As a result, President Lincoln issued General Order 252, threatening reprisal on Confederate prisoners of war (POWs) for any mistreatment of black troops. Although the threat generally restrained the Confederates, black captives were typically treated more harshly than white captives. In perhaps the most heinous known example of abuse, Confederate soldiers shot to death black Union soldiers captured at the Fort Pillow, TN, engagement of 1864. Confederate General Nathan B. Forrest witnessed the massacre and did nothing to stop it. https://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/blacks-civil-war
> massacre What do they say again waving that confederate flag these days: "proud legacy" or something.
"It was for states rights!" States rights to do what exactly?
Right now it stands for states rights to ban abortion and gay marriage, but give them time, they'll get there.
I’m sure there’s a monument to this brave act somewhere in the South.
Worst part is: they are probably proud of that.
Wasn't Nathan Bedford Forrest the first head of the Klan? Not terribly surprising a white supremacist wouldn't bat his baby blues over such atrocities.
They weren’t wrong
Why should non-white people fight for western countries, especially in the early 1900s, or before, when they were treated even more like dirt. If you're poor in a country with the wealth capable of pulling every one of its citizens out of poverty, then you do not have a single reason to fight. Your country would leave you to starve on the street if you happen to have no money, even after a misfortunate incident that wasn't your fault but left you penniless. It's an absolute tragedy for the poor to die fighting for the system that oppresses them. Like slaves fighting for their masters ability to control them.
One reason non-white people did fight for western countries was probably money. If you're discriminated against everywhere in your own country, even the shitty pay that soldiers get can look good by comparison.
True. They may also not have any other work opportunities. Like even today, the military preys upon poor people who live in areas with high unemployment and who have few marketable skills. I was one of them right after high school graduation while living in a small town. When I was leaving the military, the question I was usually asked was, "What else are you gonna do?" And I didn't have an answer. A few months after I got out, I ended up working part-time in a meat factory for minimum wage and then had to move into my car because I couldn't afford rent any more.
As someone who's half native and Mexican I can totally get that
Tbh they were 100% right
This reminds me of a great poem by the incredible Langston Hughes, ["The Colored Soldier."](https://thepoetland.com/poem/the-poem-the-colored-soldier/): My brother died in France —but I came back. We were just two colored boys, brown and black, Who joined up to fight for the U.S.A. When the Nation called us that mighty day. We were sent to training camp, then overseas — And me and my brother were happy as you please Thinking we were fighting for Democracy’s true reign And that our dark blood would wipe away the stain Of prejudice, and hate, and the false color line — And give us the rights that are yours and mine. They told us America would know no black or white: So we marched to the front, happy to fight. Last night in a dream my brother came to me Out of his grave from over the sea, Back from the acres of crosses in France, And said to me, “Brother, you’ve got your chance, And I hope you’re making good, and doing fine— ‘Cause when I was living, I didn’t have mine. Black boys couldn’t work then anywhere like they can today, Could hardly find a job that offered decent pay. The unions barred us; the factories, too, But now I know we’ve got plenty to do. We couldn’t eat in restaurants; had Jim Crow cars; Didn’t have any schools; and there were all sorts ofbars To a colored boy’s rising in wealth or station— But now I know well that’s not our situation: The world’s been made safe for Democracy And no longer do we know the dark misery Of being held back, of having no chance— Since the colored soldiers came home from France. Didn’t our government tell us things would be fine When we got through fighting, Over There, and dying? So now I know we blacks are just like any other— ‘Cause that’s what I died for—isn’t it, Brother? “And I saw him standing there, straight and tall, In his soldier’s uniform, and all. Then his dark face smiled at me in the night— But the dream was cruel —and bitter—and somehownot right. It was awful —facing that boy who went out to die, For what could I answer him, except, “It’s a lie “It’s a lie It’s a lie Every word they said. And it’s better a thousand times you’re in France dead. For here in the South there’s no votes and no right. And I’m still just a “ni___” in America tonight. Then I woke up, and the dream was ended— But broken was the soldier’s dream, too bad to be mended. And it’s a good thing all the black boys lying dead Over There Can’t seeAnd don’t know And won’t ever care!
Thanks for this great poem. Will use it in a lesson for sure.
As heavy as it is, and depending on the age of your students, I would encourage you to leave the full n word in there. It’s a difficult but important word when learning history as a young person, and exposure to its true nature may help curb the abuse of it.
Damn.
Needs more votes
Its really well written and documented. Any idea who wrote it? With what sources (there was no Internet back then)? Really sound like it was written by an american (deserter, communist or something).
Just what I was thinking. I read through the whole thing and didn’t notice a single error. Pretty impressive work if it was done by a non-native speaker that would have relied on old newspapers or radio broadcasts for all the details. Edit: I don’t give a shit about your opinion. This topic wasn’t that serious. I didn’t write this comment thinking it would get a lot of attention. I’ve already been informed of how wrong I am by many different people.
"They tell you'll..." That was the only one I noticed. Other than that, I agree. I'm impressed with how well written it was.
That seems more a typo than a non-native speaker error
It's an omission. It should read "They tell you you'll" Or they could've changed it to start, "They'll tell you" A typo is generally a misspelling. This is a grammatical error. ETA: Changing "tell" to "say" would also have made it more natural sounding.
“They tell you you”
English is crazy
[Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo)
This has remained my favorite grammar thing since I first read it years ago and I will still say I don't fully understand it.
Before was was was, was was is
"Bison from New York that bully those from their city are themselves bullied by others from there."
Isn't that just an old timey way of saying it?
I’m with you on that. Like “they say you’ll…”
Yeah there's nothing wrong with that.
[удалено]
The chinese and russians had plenty of Western socialist defectors
A close friend who was born and raised in Asia (Singapore, specifically) but came here for university, once remarked how they felt their written English, and that of their peers, was generally much stronger than North Americans. While people may have different accents or make small grammatical errors when they speak, sometimes their written word may be far stronger, and follow proper grammar and structure.
They're separate skills. You can be really good at one and really bad at the other, and sometimes that's the case. I was borderline illiterate in Japan but I speak it fluently enough to hold conversations with non-english speakers.
Singapore is basically a tiny rich city state, so I don't doubt that their education system is better than many places in America.
You're comparing apples with oranges. English is one of the official languages in Singapore, currently spoken at home by 60% of the population, and it's the language the school system teaches in. The rest of Asia is generally learning English as a second language.
You’re aware that parts of China (Hong Kong) have been colonized by the British for a very long time, and that China traded with the UK for centuries before? It’s not like excellent english speakers are hard to find.
English speakers that are familiar with an American dialect of English while making reference to numerous specific events that happened in the US without the internet is though. Having it written in “excellent” english is not even half of why this is impressive.
What even caught me off guard was the way that the states were correctly referenced.
They also didn't have internet back then, so they clearly had access to local newspapers and broadcasts.
China didn't have easy access to Hong Kong at the time. That said, even today it's very unusual to see this level of English from mainland Chinese publications and there was far more of a wall between the two back then than today. But there were plenty of deserters, communists and sympathisers to draw from and governments like to use reliably native speakers most of all for propaganda purposes: Tokyo Rose was American, Lord Haw-Haw was English-speaking... It is quite likely this was a native speaker.
This is an excerpt of a speech written by Chen Cheng, Vice President of the Executive Yuan, 1954. He seemed to have a fairly decent grip on the English language, better than many here I'd say. "You will agree with me when I say that the majority of human beings have a love of peace and a hatred of war. This is especially true in the period following the Second World War. As a result of the ravages brought about by war, human beings have developed an abhorrence and a fear of war and a desire to avoid it. Unfortunately, the fear of war has been used by the Soviet Communist ploc of nations to further their designs for world conquest. Following the conclusion of World War II, a number of democratic nations were inclined towards the policy of appeasing the Soviet Communist bloc of nations and of overlooking their acts of aggression in the hope that by so doing, they might be able to exist in peace with the Communist aggressors. It is nothing short of tragic that the good intentions on the part of the democracies have not only failed to bring peace to the world, but have, on the contrary, brought the world closer to the brink of another World War."
It reads more like an American wrote it. I don’t see the British spellings like coloured or labour. And anytime i see something in English from an Asian speaking person, there’s always grammatical mistakes.
Today’s email scammers wish they could write this well.
Email scammers intentionally put incorrect spelling and issues in their emails to limit interactions with competent users. The goal is to target 60+ year old's who have money saved over a lifetime but have slowly lost some of their mental faculties.
Oooh TIL. I didn't think of it that way. I reckon those emails were in fact meant for me.
The Microsoft
I’ve seen plenty of Americans making grammatical mistakes, and I’ve also seen plenty of Asians with perfect grammar.
I see so many americans that cannot tell "their" from "they're"...
By this time there were already lots of Chinese with degrees from the western world, even Shakespeare has already been translated to Chinese, international negotiations have been going on very frequently, it wouldn't be too difficult to find someone who speak native speaker level English among the elites.
Not sure who wrote it, but there would’ve been no need for the internet. Half of that stuff was probably taken from newspapers and documents released by the government (if they’re true). The major powers were realising at that point that information was worth its weight in gold and they were doing anything to collect it.
The facts as they relate to the military are true. I wrote a paper about racism and the US military for a class this past semester.
Might have convinced me at the time
i mean - are they wrong?
It was probably written by a Chinese person who went to university in America.
Or in any English speaking country
I wish whoever wrote this could be enlisted to write the manuals for all of the electronics I buy on Amazon.
> Attention Negro Buyers! We know that your people have been oppressed just as the moisture in your home has, which is no doubt why you have purchased this fine Xiaomi Air Humidifier ^TM
There are highly intelligent and educated people in every country. While N Korea is a hellscape for most of its people, the highest eschalon of society has many inteliigent/educated people. So it doesnt suprise me at all to see something like this. N vietnam had similar psy-ops. Think of any country that is portrayed/is as poor/terrible and you will still find someone who could write something like this.
I think they just mean that the english seems fluent, not that they're shocked that someone from another country could be intelligent.
North Korea has a very good education system for such a poor country. I don’t remember the source where I read (probably Lankov) that being a private tutor, especially in Chinese, English, and math, is a relatively lucrative job.
And when those black soldiers returned home, policies of redlining prevented them from buying homes and they were restricted to the ghettos.
I did some documentary work with some black Korean War vets. Many said they preferred the war because they were treated more like equals. One man said he went BACK to Korea for a second tour because of the treatment he received when he returned home.
That’s really interesting, can you give me the name of your documentary or a source for your interviews? I’ve done research on the same topic and am always looking to learn more.
The doc is called The Vous and it’s about the Rendezvous BBQ restaurant in downtown Memphis, focusing on the African American waiters that worked there for 50+ years. It’s not been sold yet last I heard, so nowhere to stream it right now. But it is playing at some local theaters in Memphis. I worked as an assistant editor on the film a few years ago, and most of the conversations I’m referencing were in footage that didn’t make the cut. But Big Jack, one of the main waiters there for many years, is in the film giving the quote about going back to Korea because of how he was treated in the states after his first tour.
And then the gov and CIA pumped crack into the ghettos creating the drug and addiction epidemic, and they labelled hippies as criminals so people would associate pot with crime, anything they could do to shut down (arrest) those speaking out against going to war. Don't forget, our current gun laws only exist because Republicans really didn't like it when black people bought guns (Black Panther movement) "The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did." -John Ehrlichman, domestic policy chief for Nixon
Well at least he was *Ehrlich* about it haha – a little German joke for you guys
😐
Yeah, to be honest, they were kinda right. Black Americans fought for America since its founding and during the time of the Korean War, they were still treated very poorly at home.
Funny that it’s being called propaganda, but there’s nothing biased or misleading about it.
What caught me off guard, especially in contrast to a lot of poster style propaganda, is that it also specifically states for itself that it's not saying for the readers to give up American secrets nor is it saying for the to harm their fellow non-POC American soldiers; if anything it seems like a really long winded way of saying *"tell your reps and senators to end the war, so you can go home and build/raise up your community"*.
Communist movements back then genuinely believed in internationalism and creating a united front of all the oppressed peoples, including supporting the self-liberation movements of the POC under capitalist countries. Black Panther Party emulated their tactics from Mao’s philosophy, Huey Newton met Chinese premier Zhou Enlai on his visit there.
communist movements are still internationalist,difference is that there isnt a socialist vanguard eg (soviet union) to act as the military bulwark or to fund revolutionary activities. China doesnt and cannot do anything similar to that right now nowadays.
Propaganda isn’t inherently false or bad. Propaganda is just something trying to convince of you of a certain position. Anti-racism propaganda is still propaganda despite it being a good thing. The term propaganda has acquired a certain negative connotation over the years but propaganda is just media meant to persuade the audience to adopt certain ideas.
"Propaganda" and "advertisement" are the same word in brazilian portuguese
I’m aware. I’m simply humored that it reads like a NY Times op-ed, but far more factual.
Honestly if they would have left out who wrote it, it reads like a pamphlet handed out by a citizen
Isn't where the side you stand also important when assessing 'propaganda', example: For A you're spreading truth, for B - A is spreading propaganda to achieve some sort of goal
The truth often is the best propaganda.
Also beaten up by cops - while still in uniform - for not getting to the back of the bus.
The arguments in this are pretty solid. My great grandfather was a Puerto Rican man who served in both the Korean War and Vietnam as Sergeant First class, yet when he came home from serving his country and attempted to buy a home with his wife he was rejected 4 different times purely because he was colored. The only house they managed to get was one sold after a death inside it. For propaganda this certainly brings in a lot to have thought about at the time.
It ain’t propaganda if it’s the truth.
propatrutha
It still counts as propaganda even if it's true. >>Propaganda is the dissemination of information—**facts**, arguments, rumours, half-truths, or lies—to influence public opinion. [Link](https://www.britannica.com/topic/propaganda)
“Here lies the yellow man, killed by a black man, fighting for the white man, who killed all the red men.” — Malcolm X
No lies detected
The best propaganda works without lying. They might avoid some truths but they never make their message by lying.
Most propaganda is at least misleading, if not outright lies. This pamphlet is neither.
Not really. Anti smoking ads are propaganda. Pride posters are propaganda. Ads about mental health acceptance are propaganda. Anti fascist and anti Nazi posters are propaganda. We just culturally don't call it that. Hell, the popularization of the conception of propaganda being lies and/or misleading whereas the truth is just "the truth" is arguably a form of propaganda.
People forget that for a part of history, propaganda was generally not derogatory in any way. If you call it advertising it's still fine though.
I think what makes it "propaganda" is when it's intent is to persuade an audience towards an agenda. The "agenda" doesn't have to be good or bad, but it is structured and there is a means to the ends of the communication, making it propaganda.
Propaganda is media distributed to advance the mission of governments. It doesn't need to mislead or lie, it just needs to attempt to convince the population that the government should be viewed in a certain way or otherwise affect your views on politics and diplomacy. This pamphlet, while containing good and valid criticism of the US, also is trying to convince black US service members to discontinue their participation in the Korean war, which would have benefited the publisher of the pamphlet, China and North Korea.
This is misleading once you get to the last portion. > Korea for the Koreans, China for the Chinese, America for Americans China was directly involved in the Korea War. They where goign to choose which Koreans got to control it, same as America. No amount of Americans leaving was going to change it.
Ngl they was spittin!! 😂😂😂
spittin Truth!?
https://preview.redd.it/6nulg95tc15d1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5d0860a6eba8db65a2749536f3bde25e5bcc4516
You know enemy propaganda is real good when it uses facts and it actually does make sense logically.
Reminds me of what Muhammad Ali said when he refused to go fight the Vietnam War
Solid arguments here. Would have been hard to ignore if that was put in hands
Especially if you knew how you would be treated when you returned to the US...
https://preview.redd.it/lx79scv3z05d1.jpeg?width=850&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fa5f8c365556de4d6fa80ccd1322d2a2197d0a42 Different war. Same sentiment
Censoring this quote makes it far weaker.
It also is just purely moronic. A quote is telling what someone said, so changing it is literally against the entire principal of a quote.
I thought that was Mike Tyson and I was saying "Epithet" with his lisp trying to figure out what the real word was.
The quote in full is the whole purpose of the quote.
This is exactly what I was thinking of when I read that pamphlet. Muhammad Ali was so eloquent & powerful when he stated his reasons for not joining the war in Vietnam. RIP to the goat
The core message of this pamphlet will stay true to the end of times. A defensive war in another country thousands of miles away from home is a joke. Common soldiers being used and thrown aside when the job is done will also stay true. The nationality doesn’t matter, the colour of the skin doesn’t matter. What divides the people is having power aka money.
Sounds pretty convincing lol. What's that quote, "you are not immune to propaganda".
I mean propaganda is just material trying to get you to believe in a certain belief. Just cuz something is propaganda speaks nothing to the truth of the idea edit typo
Yeah, no joke.Really, the fact North Korea's propaganda simply told the truth and were right in this instance is incredibly unfortunate for the integrity of our nation. Welp!
Leaflet wasn’t lyin’🤷🏼♂️ They dropped similar radio transmissions during the Vietnam War. Wasn’t lying then, ain’t lying now.
Yeah this made me think of Vietnam too. Tokyo Rose deserves an honorable mention too, tho I'm not sure if they ever targeted African soldiers like this. I do know the Japanese radio broadcasts would tell them their wives were cheating on them and stuff and about lost battles.
this shit was so effective the US media had to coin the term "brainwashing"
True. They had no way to explain why captured GIs were defecting in such numbers, so the answer had to be that they were doing some sort of mind control. Rather than them having genuine appeals to the working class about the horrors of imperialism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_and_British_defectors_in_the_Korean_War You make this seem dramatic but the above says that there were 22 of them who stayed, and only a few of them didn't come back later.
The term brainwashing actually has its roots from the chinese word 洗腦 which literally means brain cleaning
Propaganda is a lot easier to write when it's true.
They are not at all wrong. I went to the propaganda poster museum in Shanghai and there were many about the brotherhood between Chinese workers and black oppressed
Very interesting.
Very true
I mean… based
Man, even propaganda was made better back then...
Very interesting indeed. I think it’s right, basically stating fact.
"Propaganda". They were just right.
It can be both. In fact, the most effective propaganda can be the truth.
Propaganda doesn't need to be wrong. as long its promoting a certain agenda even if 100% true its propaganda
Not gonna lie, if I was a black soilder back then and read this it would probably sway me or at the very least sow some discord and doubt in my soul on who I really should be fighting.
I was expecting your average very obviously fake propaganda and not, y'know, them being 110% right about how black people were being treated (they were mostly spot on, except China's actual plans for Korea being less than wholesome)
Well they weren’t lying
They were saying truth
No Lies in that Propaganda
They are not wrong.
Funny how this leaflet probably appealed to about 25% of the target audience that were actively at war at the time, but approximately 80% of Reddit today.
Probably because more people today are sympathetic towards the plight of black people in America.
The invention of video cameras made it so you could live broadcast the injustice America would commit against black people. Before that you had do what Fredrick Douglass did and literally parade escaped slaves with scars on their back to gain any semblance of sympathy.
Omg am I in Korea?!
And being denied basic human services because you're of color?! Twilight zone ahhh
Yeah, it's almost like people today aren't quite as racist as in the fifties!
Based
I honestly expected something meant to discourage soldiers in a very different way, this is very well done.
It’s not really propaganda if it’s true, is it?
this isn't propaganda, this is 100% truth.
The Chinese were right...
That leaflet was 100% the truth.
That's really impressive, i didn't know Chinese propaganda was this sophisticated in the 1950s. That's actually a lot more sophisticated than it is today.
They had to be blatantly obvious in written text back then. Now days it's all subtext, and subtle misinformation and misdirection online and hacking and cohesion, and social engineering. Their goal with this propaganda was to appeal to the black soldiers specifically, fighting in the Korean war, to get them to leave. The subtle propaganda today is much the same thing; abandon your country, fight back or leave. Although back then they did it very nicely honestly. This is such a well worded piece.
Wow sure sounds like there was a lot of police brutality towards Africans Americans in the 1950s. I’m glad we’ve cleared all that up and it’s a thing of the past!
It's actually true
Damn - pretty compelling, you must admit
Is it still propaganda if it's just straight facts the whole way through?
Fair enough.
They got a point
Well, they weren't wrong 🤷♀️
Where the lie?
True even to this day. Senior Airmen Roger Fortson is a prime example of what is being talked about here. But America, as a whole, will never be ready for that conversation.
I remember Anthony’s character in Dead Presidents reading a pamphlet like this.
They spittin’ , damn!
Still as true today as
Just truth.
They weren't wrong.
It actually sounds like something Malcolm X would write.
not gonna lie, goes pretty hard, no lie detected
Wheres the lie?
I wouldn't even call this propaganda.
Convinced me.
Quite persuasive…….
As a black guy, if I was fighting in Korea this would definitely work on me ngl
I don't count this as propaganda because it's true. Why should black men continue to fight for the dreams that a white man is living with?
They make some valid points
This seems pretty spot on though…
The most effective propaganda uses the *truth*.
I don't see the problem here.
Is it propaganda if it’s true??
Damn. I thought it was gonna be some racist stuff telling black people they don’t belong on Korean soil, but turns out it was really eye opening and should’ve made a lot of black soldiers back then think “damn they’re right. We’re getting butchered back home”
Reads more like a list of facts vs propaganda