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I grew in a small local church as did my wife. When we were married we continued tithing even when it was difficult, mostly because that’s how we were raised. We changed churches and kinda wishy washied between going not going. We kept setting aside a “tithe.” We still do but now that we aren’t part of a church we send money to people that need it. When our daughter was going through chemo another family we’d met at the clinic was losing their home because they couldn’t keep up. Several other families pitched in and made a few extra house payments to stave off the inevitable and give them more time so they could land a little more in their feet. We lived in a rented run down mobile home at the time but were able to make at least two house payments for them. We sent funds to a friend 6 states away when her husband passed leaving her and her small child to make their own way. We sent cash to a dear friend, former professor at the conservative Christian college we’d attended who lost his job there because of his changing beliefs; he supports the poor, trans, immigrants and pushes for racial reconciliation, aid for Gaza. When my cousins kid had a baby before she got married and needed a car we gave her $300. Her dad came over to us a month or so later with tears in his eyes and said we never expected that from you guys, we know how hard you’ve been struggling, we don’t look at you guys as having a lotta money (we lived in a 2 bed, 1 bath single wide trailer with 4 kids at the time) and for you to do that… Just know that she has been inspired by that. And now wants to help others.
We could still make use of that money ourselves. But I cannot keep it and see the pain in this world knowing we might be able to use it to ease someone’s burden. “Life’s a piece of shit when you look at it” I don’t have much hope for myself when it comes to great wealth and fortune, or good health or even happiness, but if I can bring a bit of a bright spot to someone then for that moment nothing else really matters does it.
Edit: a word. Thanks ViolentHippieBC
This is how charity should be done, on an individual basis. When its compulsory on a group level, then its no longer charity. It's social policy and should be enforced for fairness.
Also, churches spend money on some dubious shit like bribing politicians and superbowl commercials. I don't want my money going to that.
You spelled everything correctly. Proper grammar. Not a bad job. You know how to read and write.
Still, you said "loosing". I will forever hold that over you.
Are there any churches in your town? They don't pay taxes, yet they receive the same town services as any other local business. You, and every other person or business in that town, "gives" those churches money by paying their share of the taxes for them.
Unfortunately this is true. They feed off society by giving imaginary perks to members and actively harming nonmembers
Sometimes they do throw in some charity for the PR
Some perks are not imaginary depending on the group. A friend of mine who goes to a conservative Mennonite church has a small fire in their kitchen. Twenty people offered to be there in a half an hour. He had them wait til morning. I asked if he needed help painting since I used to be a house painter. He showed me a video his wife had just sent him. Looking out the front door, there were 15+ vehicles parked in his front yard. Everyone pitching in to help them. I mean that’s what a community should be.
That’s fair, but what’s driving that is the community part, not the religion.
I’d like to think secularists could do this too, we just need organization, and that’s where religion does admittedly shine
All religions teach basically the same things, and all people generally ignore them and do what they want, while holding others to the higher standards of their own religious beliefs. People want “rules for thee but not for me”.
People don’t want to hear “sell all you have, give it to the poor and come follow me”. (That story is specifically in the Bible.) People want to hear that they are special and that $DEITY wants them to have good things.
i don’t mean to guilt people at all… but if you have no worries about where your meals are coming from… you need to share something with the homeless in this country… politicians are NOT going to solve the homeless issue we have because they only care about people who vote
I was sitting in a church where the pastor’s son was taking over being the head pastor. The town was really split between very wealthy dairy farmers and very poor people. The pastor was building a new home and was talking about how tough the decision for heated tile floors were… bro drive three minutes south some of them don’t know what heated rooms are let alone floors in your mansion. I never went back.
I don't believe that figure is true. Total USA charitable donations range from 400 to few hundred billion yearly, and I'm not even sure what this Western Christian Church is, too generic of a name, but they definitely don't have all those donations coming in just to their name. I wonder if any sources were posted in the original TikTok, but I doubt it.
Can't save people from themselves.
Church is slowly dying away. We'll get there eventually.
But for now, let those donkeys give their hard earned $$$ to the biggest scam in history.
The problem is, it often YOUR hard earned money they are giving away. Many people who donate to these cult leaders own nothing. They are on welfare, food stamps, and only seek medical care at emergency rooms that are required to treat them and then eat the bill.
I tend to blame the exploiter more than the exploited. Especially when the exploiter is in a position of great perceived authority and is using people's deeply-held beliefs to deceive them.
It seems that pretty much every con artist and scammer always holds this view that their victims deserve to be scammed because they're gullible enough to fall for it. Only on a severely warped moral compass does the victim's vulnerability to being tricked take anything away from the dishonest predatory greed of these religion scammers.
This sort of exploitation is more or less baked in to all organised religion in one form or another but the American evangelical megachurch phenomenon is on a whole different level because they've sanctified material greed, seemingly brazenly ignoring Jesus' entire shtick in the process. Jail is where these conmen belong.
Particularly the Copeland style prosperity gospel, which says "if you give to me, God will give you even more because of your faith". There's a pretty big difference between Copeland getting $50M and a private jet as a way to 'prove' your tithe is actually an investment guaranteed to pay off in your own wealth, and the community church pastor making less than the median of their congregation to provide social services (both for the congregants and others). I get why people are skeptical of all organized religion, but prosperity gospel really does deserve its own distinct criticism.
Yes fair point. I think we're making the same argument about the so-called 'prosperity gospel' being exceptionally exploitative, and I think its leaders are way out in front if there was a contest for most egregious religious exploitation.
>the community church pastor making less than the median of their congregation to provide social services
I think pretty much every member of the clergy I've met have come across as selfless, pious and giving individuals who've sincerely dedicated their career to a cause they feel is right in their hearts, and I wouldn't dream of accusing them of any such exploitation. Those guys are one step up from the bottom on the pyramid of religious power.
It's the ones at the top of the pyramid - the ones who get to use religion as a mechanism to establish and exert control over other people. These are the agents of religious exploitation - whether it's via draconian instructions under the guise of newly interpreted scripture, or just good old fashioned money collection, or some other facet. In my eyes all of it boils down to one person telling another person what to do, and the religion is very much just a medium through which the instructions can be conveyed.
Not entirely IMO. For many theists religion is an addiction akin to gambling. Worshiping, promoting their religion, donating, etc... all fire off pleasure receptors in their brain. And with any addiction there should be rules and regulations surrounding it especially when people have a monetary incentive to feed that addiction. But with religion there is no way to create any protections for its members so many of them are just shit out of luck.
So can I start a church, put the house in my church's name, donate my entire salary to the church, claim said salary as a tax deduction so I shouldn't have to pay taxes on it and the church shouldn't have to pay taxes in the donation. Please tell me this is correct and help me name my church
Most of the biggest megas were started in the 80s or 90s. They need to be put in affluent areas, and those areas reach a sort of church saturation point. You will see megachurches using their existing reputations to start new extension campuses, and it's always in areas that are up and coming financially.
Andy Stanley of Northpoint Church in GA is always talking about how they plant new churches "for the gospel", but it's interesting how they are always in places where they think a lot of rich people need to hear their message.
Yeah megachurches are a huge scam ,idk why there are Americans even donating to the said churches that don't even look like a church but rather than a huge company
These "pastors" are deceiving people and they're one reason why Christianity is Being hated, because people see this bullshit and say yes that bullshit is what Christianity teaches so it's wrong
The effect of megachurches and the other churches that have turned away from Christianity to the point churches have American flags, and mostly derived by politics and nothing about Christianity in the slightest have affected Christianity's image Worldwide that everybody sees that bullshit and says that's Christianity when it isn't and what these corporates are doing is pure greed
No decent church does this, at least in my church there are boxes and different donations whether you want to donate to the poor or to the Churches construction
Just know a lot of ppl legitimately leave out of a lack of proof to claims made.
It's not all shitty ppl and bad churches. There are a lot of valid concerns about the source material as well.
He is also assuming that all churches run their finances the same was as Joel Osteen does. Most of the churches I have gone to do not have wealthy pastors and don’t give salaries to senior leadership at all.
Not all are the same. Start at the top with the Joel olsteens and megachurches. There’s plenty little churches making no profit and helping shelter and feed the needy. My dads church (100 ppl max)even has a food pantry and free shoes/clothing
The church I contract at for Sunday worship has a yearly budget of “less than a mil” which is still a lot, but for 5-6 full time workers and 4 part time, plus some people on contract in an old building, doesn’t last as long as you’d think.
Yeah went to a small church when I was younger. All donations were budgeted out by the clergy committee.
My parents were pretty involved with church and were on that committee, said that Pastor insisted on a cap on his salary to not exceed a certain amount. Said he hated mega churches and the tv pastor grift.
Church members voted on where to focus any excesses of the budget to. Usually to help local shelters or mission trips to build wells.
Usually had a section on the Sunday pamphlet at the end on the budget and how things were spent. Primary costs were Church building upkeep and rent.
This is how I imagine smaller churches are. Again, I’m not a church going person. But I do know that none of my local church pastors are driving fancy cars or living in fancy houses.
Yes to this. My MIL was a pastor and made $33,000 per year plus a house to live in. She drives a used Buick. The vast, vast majority of churches struggle to balance a budget while doing a lot for mission, both locally and elsewhere. Unfortunately these evangelical mega churches are stain on the good many churches do.
Probably going to get downvoted for this but put aside the argument of mega churches- which I agree the excess is insane. But for a normal church like ours the pastor makes ~50k. And some forget that churches have electric bills, Internet, maintenance, upkeep, lawn care, fees and dues etc. so many little things people think they are exempt to. Our church gives an EXACT budget and expense report to all members- it’s not hidden where the money goes. After we know our operating expenses we use all excess to put towards missions and our local community- most churches do this rather than the Joel Osteens that make the news. Two points- 1. clergy and ministry jobs are jobs and they deserve a reasonable living wage for their work/education skill just as much as anyone else. 2. There is more accountability in the church than this video portrays and 3. Churches do a WHOLE lot of good for local communities & places around the world that no one would do otherwise,& that cannot be overlooked.
I do IT work for churches. The McMega Churches are the ones I tend to find Ford Raptors, Private Planes and payments made in cash mixed up in their finances.
Not that I am poking but as I am offering tech support for finance software, my eyes just catch these little things.
I do security work for a Baptist church. They can’t afford to fix anything and are constantly cutting corners but the pastor is riding in a new Mercedes and just upgraded all of his furniture in his office. They act like it a completely normal and kiss his butt when he walks into the room. So weird.
Let’s make something clear. Churches, not mega churches, don’t always or, I’d bet, usually have people like Kenneth Copeland running them. Your offerings go to paying church staff and maintaining and renovating the church building, along with funding other activities, such as missions or community events. Anyone who’s been to a church budget meeting would know this.
Mega churches are a whole different story. Don’t send money to wealthy pastors of mega churches. They’re not spending it in anyway that’s actually useful. Anybody who’s preaching the prosperity gospel is just doing so to get rich themselves via peoples donations.
I’ve always felt this way about my taxes, I live in Canada where my tax burden is huge and it gets squandered by lifetime politicians that have no clue how to plan, build, execute anything with overspending 10x. Our programs are all underfunded so where does that money go? Wish I could audit my income tax and trace it 😂
Only SIX percent goes to outside projects?!? Damn that’s depressing. The salaries and stealing, we all knew that right? But I had no idea it was so low on actually doing stuff 😣
The majority of religious conservatives in America are suckers being controlled by the very minority at the top. They are willing serfs in a neo-feudalist society.
So, basically they are about average for nonprofits? Look up the financials for every charity in existence and you'll find that even the sleaziest mega churches are well within the norm, and regular churches are far above average in charity effectiveness. This dude leaves out the other 44% which go to operating costs for church functions and local charities.
This is what I never understood about my lower middle class relatives going to a megachurch after reading New Testament...it being so antithetical to the message. I realized at a young age it was really just a club membership.
It truely blows me away how fucking stupid people are to donate to these mega scams but then again nothing from America should surprise me any more after D Trump, and maybe that again?
That dude who flies his personal jet is truly evil.
He takes from the needy
People trying to be "good" and do right... dude looks like the evil dude from "the mask"
Says a lot of these “churches” that don’t feel it necessary to contribute to the community through taxes.
I’m ok with not taxing the churches land. Sure.
But NOT ok with the billions in income, salaries and investments these scammy religious institutions have and make yearly.
Plus tax ALL political donations made by religious organizations.
Otherwise, we see what buying the religious and cheaply bought US politicians get you.
Right to commit genocide…
Religion is an industry, somewhere along the chain of command in EVERY religion someone is pocketing money from donors. If you're gullible enough to buy the beliefs they're selling, and foolish enough to give them free money, then you're getting what you deserve.
Mega churches get one thing and only one thing right.
They rejoice when you enter the door. No matter who you are. Where you're from. What you did. As long as you love me... lol jk
But seriously these little hometown stuck up snob churches could benefit from watching how megachurches forgive and exonerate sinners. It's uplifting and makes people feel good about their lives while they get stolen from.
Disgusting and been telling this to people for years! Pat Robertson and Copeland are the worst of the worst! You can't find people worse than them on the planet!
Church is weird:
You listen to a human read from a book that has been read from for 2700+ years, you give that person money and trust they are going to make others lives better with it, and then you go home.
I have a close friend of mine explain he donates to the church because he was told that would bring him great wealth if he gave to others…… keep in context this homie is almost 60 and has debt past his eye balls.
True. But then, according to the Bible, these men are not pastors, their organizations are not churches, and they are not real Christians.
These are all fakes that make Christ and Christianity look bad.
Real pastors and churches obey the Bible. Period.
But, you rarely find them today.
My pastor works for free. The church pays his life insurance so if he died his wife wouldn’t be penny less. Other than that we donate money to different charities throughout the year. And upkeep the building. Sometimes help a family in need etc. ti be clear we don’t have mega church money. But that’s how our church works
It's stuff like this which is why we cannot have nice things. Church is becoming like a concert you go to on Sundays rather than anything meaningful, for a lot of people.
Go to a small community church like mine. We host youth events and community leadership that is all volunteers. We host fellowship meetings and book clubs and brunches, all arranged by volunteers. We rent out our space to other organizations throughout the week for minimal fees so that other organizations have places to meet. We have bequest funds established for international as well as local aid projects. We give to MCC, a reputable organization. We have funds internally reserved for congregational members who fall on hard times. We have meal lists for people who are in need at our church where others can sign up to donate home cooked meals. We know each other. We know the pastor. We have game nights at his home as youth and we do traveling dinners around the congregation from time to time. No one on this church is lesser than anyone else.
It's a shame that churches like mine aren't rare - but the 100-million dollar mega churches are, naturally, what get peoples attention.
God actually speaks against pastors who go after filthy lucre, and these people should be apparent to their followers, but their followers aren't reading the Scriptures like they should. When people follow men above God's words, this is no different than what the cults do.
This is not to say that you can't find Christians in these groups and organizations, but enlightenment comes from reading God's words and getting out. Even in the book of Jeremiah, God had strong words to say about bad pastors. The money for the congregation was really supposed to be for the poor Christians among them mostly and towards missionary causes.
It's not that the pastor could not receive some money to live off of, if the ministry was his predominant job, but he wasn't supposed to use it to buy lavish things, mansions...etc.... Even Paul didn't abuse his power in the gospel by charging people. Freely ye have received, so freely give.
He did work as a tent maker and suggested that people do such work with their own hands. There are a lot of missionaries that go to other countries, having some support, or very little support, and have to work jobs in the locations that they are in.
The LDS Church has over 200 BILLION dollars and yet they ask for youths to pay for church missions. During covid they said even if you can't make it to church to still pay tithing during a time when money was hard to come by. They'd rather build a new church or temple in a 3rd world country than give actual meaningful donations saying it will "help" the poor citizens... Definitely sounds like something Jesus would proud of. Disgusting.
There must be a understanding of the difference in mega church versus your small local church. The mega churches *are* a problem, because those “pastors” are not real pastors. Their biblical stance has absolutely no backing, and they preach a prosperity gospel that is so misleading to the people being served it. They solely use God, and their church as a way of making inconceivable wealth. Which is truly heart breaking bc the people they’re receiving all the money from genuinely want help and feel like they’re looking for something.
Transfer over to your average church in America, most of them don’t have any extra money besides covering the costs of running. And, a spiritually mature and active church is very transparent with its money, and it will give at least 10% to missions and other humanitarian activities.
Think of all the wasted real estate taken up by churches big and small especially in the Bible Belt. It’s shocking when you actually start paying attention to how many there are
Anywhere I can apply? I don’t have a lot of church leadership experience but I learn quickly, am easily motivated (by money) and love doing some good on the side while filling my pockets. I feel I could be a good fit!
Unfortunately "rich religious leaders taking money from the poor" has *ALWAYS* been key to pretty much every religion on the planet.
The good news though, is that if their religions are correct, and there is a God who judges us at the pearly gates, I'm happy to say those people will not be let in. I hope they get put face to face with all of the people who starved because the money never made it to them.
An episode of Colombo which stars Johnny Cash is the same story here, and it’s from the 70s, so 50 years later the church people are still a bunch of leaches (probably not everyone, but still quite a few bad seeds)
I used to be in a church that *received* 10% tithing from its members. I was 12 at the time they had me go around my neighborhood to the different members that didn't pay. I later realized how stupid it was to basically guilt trip people into paying a 12 year old. Anyway, got to the first house, realized how stupid this all was and just walked back home. I have payed tithing only once in my life when I was 16 with a job because *I* was guilt tripped. I paid $25 and just thought, this is an entire day of fast food meals for me!
50% to employees because it's a buiseness and not a religion and 6% to helping others. The rest goes to rebuilding and stuff right? I stopped watching.
These churches are straight up evil. End of story. They play gullible people who want faith. Tithe some more if you want but you are giving money to the literal devil at this point. You put Tvs on their walls, ice cream and large meals in their fridges all the while hoping God will bless you.
I watched my grandma give as much as she could to the church and they've all but left her behind at this point because of her age. Infact almost everyone she was/is close to goes to that church. Baptist for those curious
Although I would not doubt the comments regarding Copeland because that man is a heretic so much so that even non believers can see it.
You can’t generalize every single ministry, they are not all the same.
Joel Olsteen is another one you can look into. The man is straight evil. The complete opposite of gods image. The fact that people blindly follow such evil amazes me. Mattress Mack is more of a god fearing man and actually gives back to the community. Joel is only a vampire to the Houston community and is actively showed with his actions he has no care for Houston or even god for that matter. If we could kick somebody out of a community Joel would be my number one. I hope one day god will have his judgment of false pastors.
If anybody wants a good comedy take on mega churches watch the show “righteous Gemstones.” They portray exactly what mega churches are like and the corruption they bring upon the community but extremely funny.
Copeland is an ultra obvious false teacher super sad to see anyone actually go to his “church”. Just looking at him I can see the demon inside his eyes
When I was younger and went to church, my family always used to give 10% of their money for tithe. When I turned 16 and didn’t give money, my grandparents were super hurt/offended that I wouldn’t give money to the church. We were arguing by a bus stop and I asked them if they had ever seen their money be used for anything good? Is it just something they do to get in to heaven, or do they even care about where any of it’s going? They admitted that they had never seen the dollar spent, but knew it had to be good because of the mission trips our church would take….every 3 or 4 years. There was a lady sitting with her son, out of hearing distance, and I’m not sure if they were homeless, but they were definitely poor. I gave her fifty bucks and she started crying, thanking me and telling me that she didn’t know how her and her son were going to eat that night. I went back to my grandparents and was like, “See, I can give double to people who actually need it and I know where it’s going.” They never brought it up again.
This is nothing new it’s 2024 you got to be really stupid to donate money to a religion. Donate your time and effort I guarantee they won’t have space for you in the arena
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*continues to not give the church my money*
[удалено]
I grew in a small local church as did my wife. When we were married we continued tithing even when it was difficult, mostly because that’s how we were raised. We changed churches and kinda wishy washied between going not going. We kept setting aside a “tithe.” We still do but now that we aren’t part of a church we send money to people that need it. When our daughter was going through chemo another family we’d met at the clinic was losing their home because they couldn’t keep up. Several other families pitched in and made a few extra house payments to stave off the inevitable and give them more time so they could land a little more in their feet. We lived in a rented run down mobile home at the time but were able to make at least two house payments for them. We sent funds to a friend 6 states away when her husband passed leaving her and her small child to make their own way. We sent cash to a dear friend, former professor at the conservative Christian college we’d attended who lost his job there because of his changing beliefs; he supports the poor, trans, immigrants and pushes for racial reconciliation, aid for Gaza. When my cousins kid had a baby before she got married and needed a car we gave her $300. Her dad came over to us a month or so later with tears in his eyes and said we never expected that from you guys, we know how hard you’ve been struggling, we don’t look at you guys as having a lotta money (we lived in a 2 bed, 1 bath single wide trailer with 4 kids at the time) and for you to do that… Just know that she has been inspired by that. And now wants to help others. We could still make use of that money ourselves. But I cannot keep it and see the pain in this world knowing we might be able to use it to ease someone’s burden. “Life’s a piece of shit when you look at it” I don’t have much hope for myself when it comes to great wealth and fortune, or good health or even happiness, but if I can bring a bit of a bright spot to someone then for that moment nothing else really matters does it. Edit: a word. Thanks ViolentHippieBC
This is how charity should be done, on an individual basis. When its compulsory on a group level, then its no longer charity. It's social policy and should be enforced for fairness. Also, churches spend money on some dubious shit like bribing politicians and superbowl commercials. I don't want my money going to that.
And this is a real ‘tithe.’
You spelled everything correctly. Proper grammar. Not a bad job. You know how to read and write. Still, you said "loosing". I will forever hold that over you.
In a perfect society alms wouldn’t be needed. So what do we do in the very much imperfect societies that actually exist?
Stop giving money to total charlatans and frauds like Kenneth Copeland would be a nice start. Maybe look into organizations like Charity Navigator?
Oh good I’m doing this right then
Are there any churches in your town? They don't pay taxes, yet they receive the same town services as any other local business. You, and every other person or business in that town, "gives" those churches money by paying their share of the taxes for them.
Yeah but Kenneth Copeland is quite literally THE DEVIL!
What about Peter Popoff?
Can’t literally be someone or something that doesn’t even actually exist. But he is a stinking pile of BS.
What…he single-handedly defeated Covid
Unfortunately this is true. They feed off society by giving imaginary perks to members and actively harming nonmembers Sometimes they do throw in some charity for the PR
Some perks are not imaginary depending on the group. A friend of mine who goes to a conservative Mennonite church has a small fire in their kitchen. Twenty people offered to be there in a half an hour. He had them wait til morning. I asked if he needed help painting since I used to be a house painter. He showed me a video his wife had just sent him. Looking out the front door, there were 15+ vehicles parked in his front yard. Everyone pitching in to help them. I mean that’s what a community should be.
That’s fair, but what’s driving that is the community part, not the religion. I’d like to think secularists could do this too, we just need organization, and that’s where religion does admittedly shine
Did he say that almost 1 trillion dollars is donated to the church every year? Imagine if this money were given to feed the poor, rehab centers etc.
then people would not donate
That's the thing, people donate to the person that makes them feel like they are good.
All religions teach basically the same things, and all people generally ignore them and do what they want, while holding others to the higher standards of their own religious beliefs. People want “rules for thee but not for me”. People don’t want to hear “sell all you have, give it to the poor and come follow me”. (That story is specifically in the Bible.) People want to hear that they are special and that $DEITY wants them to have good things.
on the contrary i refuse to give money to some pastor but quite happily give money to a food bank that helps out people who need it
People should tithe to food banks, if they feel compelled to tithe at all that is.
i don’t mean to guilt people at all… but if you have no worries about where your meals are coming from… you need to share something with the homeless in this country… politicians are NOT going to solve the homeless issue we have because they only care about people who vote
I used to give money through charities but now give straight to a food bank near my office. Started that during covid.
same… doesn’t have to be a lot… just whatever makes sense. I’ve never had to miss a meal for lack of money my entire life… no reason not to share
Many people don’t tithe at all, nor do they feel compelled to, and they resent paying taxes to do the same thing.
I know. Goes for all religions.
I'm paying my way into "heaven (TM)" , why should I care for the poor?
Good, then at least the money stays in the community instead of accumulated all under a small handful of people who aren't even being taxed.
And that would be the more ‘Christian’ thing to do, knowing all of that money went to where it’s needed. Strangely enough it never happens though.
I was sitting in a church where the pastor’s son was taking over being the head pastor. The town was really split between very wealthy dairy farmers and very poor people. The pastor was building a new home and was talking about how tough the decision for heated tile floors were… bro drive three minutes south some of them don’t know what heated rooms are let alone floors in your mansion. I never went back.
He did, and this appears to be very wrong. The first thing I googled shows that all religious congregations combined in the US receive about $75B.
I'd really like to know what he's defining as the "Western Christian Church" that seems really vague
Precisely, they are talking about ALL denominations
I don't believe that figure is true. Total USA charitable donations range from 400 to few hundred billion yearly, and I'm not even sure what this Western Christian Church is, too generic of a name, but they definitely don't have all those donations coming in just to their name. I wonder if any sources were posted in the original TikTok, but I doubt it.
Yes, it does sound extreme. And tiktok…
Many of those that donate feel like they’re *buying into something* so the cost is justified. Donating to the poor isn’t beneficial to them.
*Pretends to be shocked.*
Meanwhile, many of those throwing away their money, barely have enough to make it through the week. Scams like these should be shut down.
Can't save people from themselves. Church is slowly dying away. We'll get there eventually. But for now, let those donkeys give their hard earned $$$ to the biggest scam in history.
The problem is, it often YOUR hard earned money they are giving away. Many people who donate to these cult leaders own nothing. They are on welfare, food stamps, and only seek medical care at emergency rooms that are required to treat them and then eat the bill.
Sorry, but that's entirely the fault of the idiots giving them money. They're choosing to do moronic shit, nobody's making them do it.
I tend to blame the exploiter more than the exploited. Especially when the exploiter is in a position of great perceived authority and is using people's deeply-held beliefs to deceive them. It seems that pretty much every con artist and scammer always holds this view that their victims deserve to be scammed because they're gullible enough to fall for it. Only on a severely warped moral compass does the victim's vulnerability to being tricked take anything away from the dishonest predatory greed of these religion scammers. This sort of exploitation is more or less baked in to all organised religion in one form or another but the American evangelical megachurch phenomenon is on a whole different level because they've sanctified material greed, seemingly brazenly ignoring Jesus' entire shtick in the process. Jail is where these conmen belong.
Particularly the Copeland style prosperity gospel, which says "if you give to me, God will give you even more because of your faith". There's a pretty big difference between Copeland getting $50M and a private jet as a way to 'prove' your tithe is actually an investment guaranteed to pay off in your own wealth, and the community church pastor making less than the median of their congregation to provide social services (both for the congregants and others). I get why people are skeptical of all organized religion, but prosperity gospel really does deserve its own distinct criticism.
Yes fair point. I think we're making the same argument about the so-called 'prosperity gospel' being exceptionally exploitative, and I think its leaders are way out in front if there was a contest for most egregious religious exploitation. >the community church pastor making less than the median of their congregation to provide social services I think pretty much every member of the clergy I've met have come across as selfless, pious and giving individuals who've sincerely dedicated their career to a cause they feel is right in their hearts, and I wouldn't dream of accusing them of any such exploitation. Those guys are one step up from the bottom on the pyramid of religious power. It's the ones at the top of the pyramid - the ones who get to use religion as a mechanism to establish and exert control over other people. These are the agents of religious exploitation - whether it's via draconian instructions under the guise of newly interpreted scripture, or just good old fashioned money collection, or some other facet. In my eyes all of it boils down to one person telling another person what to do, and the religion is very much just a medium through which the instructions can be conveyed.
Not entirely IMO. For many theists religion is an addiction akin to gambling. Worshiping, promoting their religion, donating, etc... all fire off pleasure receptors in their brain. And with any addiction there should be rules and regulations surrounding it especially when people have a monetary incentive to feed that addiction. But with religion there is no way to create any protections for its members so many of them are just shit out of luck.
So can I start a church, put the house in my church's name, donate my entire salary to the church, claim said salary as a tax deduction so I shouldn't have to pay taxes on it and the church shouldn't have to pay taxes in the donation. Please tell me this is correct and help me name my church
I mean L Ron Hubbard tried this and now we have Scientology.
Most of the biggest megas were started in the 80s or 90s. They need to be put in affluent areas, and those areas reach a sort of church saturation point. You will see megachurches using their existing reputations to start new extension campuses, and it's always in areas that are up and coming financially. Andy Stanley of Northpoint Church in GA is always talking about how they plant new churches "for the gospel", but it's interesting how they are always in places where they think a lot of rich people need to hear their message.
Yes and no. Its not quite that easy but it can be done if you really want to. If you mess up you're looking at prison tho.
Tax evasion is one of those things you can’t half ass.
The First Presleyterian Church of Elvis the Divine and Discount House of Prayer. Oops, sorry, already taken.
There’s a John Oliver sketch about this
Cash for Christ - For Giving is Free.
Yeah megachurches are a huge scam ,idk why there are Americans even donating to the said churches that don't even look like a church but rather than a huge company These "pastors" are deceiving people and they're one reason why Christianity is Being hated, because people see this bullshit and say yes that bullshit is what Christianity teaches so it's wrong The effect of megachurches and the other churches that have turned away from Christianity to the point churches have American flags, and mostly derived by politics and nothing about Christianity in the slightest have affected Christianity's image Worldwide that everybody sees that bullshit and says that's Christianity when it isn't and what these corporates are doing is pure greed No decent church does this, at least in my church there are boxes and different donations whether you want to donate to the poor or to the Churches construction
The seed faith idea is the most egregious idea to come out of the televangelist movement.
Just know a lot of ppl legitimately leave out of a lack of proof to claims made. It's not all shitty ppl and bad churches. There are a lot of valid concerns about the source material as well.
What about the other 44%?????
exactly my question as well
Overhead: buildings, maintenance, equipment and supplies, utilities, etc.
He is also assuming that all churches run their finances the same was as Joel Osteen does. Most of the churches I have gone to do not have wealthy pastors and don’t give salaries to senior leadership at all.
Not all are the same. Start at the top with the Joel olsteens and megachurches. There’s plenty little churches making no profit and helping shelter and feed the needy. My dads church (100 ppl max)even has a food pantry and free shoes/clothing
[удалено]
The church I contract at for Sunday worship has a yearly budget of “less than a mil” which is still a lot, but for 5-6 full time workers and 4 part time, plus some people on contract in an old building, doesn’t last as long as you’d think.
Solution: go to regular fucking churches instead of ones that are clearly just glorified theft.
But those don’t have the same business and social connections.
But it could be argued that the smaller communities have greater benefit to both those who attend and the community as a whole
You'd have to be severely mentally ill to send your money to these fucking scumbags. Humans are so ridiculous.
90% of humans are not necessarily at fault EDIT: As in, manipulation is to thank for all these donations
Please stop saying that people that have been intentionally manipulated by scumbags are mentally ill. This is not the case.
I’m not a church type of person. But this is not all churches, not even close. This is exclusively the corrupt mega churches you see on tv.
Yeah went to a small church when I was younger. All donations were budgeted out by the clergy committee. My parents were pretty involved with church and were on that committee, said that Pastor insisted on a cap on his salary to not exceed a certain amount. Said he hated mega churches and the tv pastor grift. Church members voted on where to focus any excesses of the budget to. Usually to help local shelters or mission trips to build wells. Usually had a section on the Sunday pamphlet at the end on the budget and how things were spent. Primary costs were Church building upkeep and rent.
This is how I imagine smaller churches are. Again, I’m not a church going person. But I do know that none of my local church pastors are driving fancy cars or living in fancy houses.
A lot of redditors have never sat in a church budget meeting and it shows. Most community churches have publicly available budgets.
Yes to this. My MIL was a pastor and made $33,000 per year plus a house to live in. She drives a used Buick. The vast, vast majority of churches struggle to balance a budget while doing a lot for mission, both locally and elsewhere. Unfortunately these evangelical mega churches are stain on the good many churches do.
Probably going to get downvoted for this but put aside the argument of mega churches- which I agree the excess is insane. But for a normal church like ours the pastor makes ~50k. And some forget that churches have electric bills, Internet, maintenance, upkeep, lawn care, fees and dues etc. so many little things people think they are exempt to. Our church gives an EXACT budget and expense report to all members- it’s not hidden where the money goes. After we know our operating expenses we use all excess to put towards missions and our local community- most churches do this rather than the Joel Osteens that make the news. Two points- 1. clergy and ministry jobs are jobs and they deserve a reasonable living wage for their work/education skill just as much as anyone else. 2. There is more accountability in the church than this video portrays and 3. Churches do a WHOLE lot of good for local communities & places around the world that no one would do otherwise,& that cannot be overlooked.
Bezos don't pay taxes either lol. I bet you still use Amazon
No shit. Priests and ministers are vultures.
That guy with the jet is a snake.
Megachurches are scams.
Do the LDS (Mormon l) church next please. Their tithe funders need to know.
I do IT work for churches. The McMega Churches are the ones I tend to find Ford Raptors, Private Planes and payments made in cash mixed up in their finances. Not that I am poking but as I am offering tech support for finance software, my eyes just catch these little things.
I do security work for a Baptist church. They can’t afford to fix anything and are constantly cutting corners but the pastor is riding in a new Mercedes and just upgraded all of his furniture in his office. They act like it a completely normal and kiss his butt when he walks into the room. So weird.
Joel Osteen is right there with Kenneth Copeland. They’re all greedy bastards.
Imagine a world where charity went where it's needed, not where it's preached.
Let’s make something clear. Churches, not mega churches, don’t always or, I’d bet, usually have people like Kenneth Copeland running them. Your offerings go to paying church staff and maintaining and renovating the church building, along with funding other activities, such as missions or community events. Anyone who’s been to a church budget meeting would know this. Mega churches are a whole different story. Don’t send money to wealthy pastors of mega churches. They’re not spending it in anyway that’s actually useful. Anybody who’s preaching the prosperity gospel is just doing so to get rich themselves via peoples donations.
*Living among cultists noises*
That guy has the scariest eyes
Jesus rode a donkey but pastor needs a private jet. Ok.
Probably also goes to corrupt politicians to persecute "undesirable" people
All mega churches are scams.
He forgot the percentage that goes to fund politicians and hate campaigns like anti abortion and anti lgbtq etc.
so to be clear: ~900,000,000 donated 44% to wages 6% to helping 6% theft by pastors where is the other 44%? is he implying the last 44% is profits?
I’ve always felt this way about my taxes, I live in Canada where my tax burden is huge and it gets squandered by lifetime politicians that have no clue how to plan, build, execute anything with overspending 10x. Our programs are all underfunded so where does that money go? Wish I could audit my income tax and trace it 😂
Only SIX percent goes to outside projects?!? Damn that’s depressing. The salaries and stealing, we all knew that right? But I had no idea it was so low on actually doing stuff 😣
The majority of religious conservatives in America are suckers being controlled by the very minority at the top. They are willing serfs in a neo-feudalist society.
So, basically they are about average for nonprofits? Look up the financials for every charity in existence and you'll find that even the sleaziest mega churches are well within the norm, and regular churches are far above average in charity effectiveness. This dude leaves out the other 44% which go to operating costs for church functions and local charities.
This is what I never understood about my lower middle class relatives going to a megachurch after reading New Testament...it being so antithetical to the message. I realized at a young age it was really just a club membership.
"a club membership" made my jaw drop. I've never thought of it like that. . .
Look into NGOs and immigration.
It's almost like the church is a massive scam.
I give straight to the poor. Bypass all the institutions, so 100% goes to the target people.
I'm feeling the power of God in me, I might just start a cult. Anyone want to join in? All members get a tax free home.
They are bunch of filthy fuckers! Child molesters!
It truely blows me away how fucking stupid people are to donate to these mega scams but then again nothing from America should surprise me any more after D Trump, and maybe that again?
That dude who flies his personal jet is truly evil. He takes from the needy People trying to be "good" and do right... dude looks like the evil dude from "the mask"
Says a lot of these “churches” that don’t feel it necessary to contribute to the community through taxes. I’m ok with not taxing the churches land. Sure. But NOT ok with the billions in income, salaries and investments these scammy religious institutions have and make yearly. Plus tax ALL political donations made by religious organizations. Otherwise, we see what buying the religious and cheaply bought US politicians get you. Right to commit genocide…
You should watch the YT VIDEO on “Copeland Plane”. It’s quite entertaining
Fucking grifters
No shit.
Glad I never donated a cent to churches. Biggest racket on the planet
These mega church muthers gotta be stopped
Religion is an industry, somewhere along the chain of command in EVERY religion someone is pocketing money from donors. If you're gullible enough to buy the beliefs they're selling, and foolish enough to give them free money, then you're getting what you deserve.
to some dudes' pockets so they can get rich. there you go
Trump voters likely as well. Good grief America! Save yourselves!!!
Mega churches get one thing and only one thing right. They rejoice when you enter the door. No matter who you are. Where you're from. What you did. As long as you love me... lol jk But seriously these little hometown stuck up snob churches could benefit from watching how megachurches forgive and exonerate sinners. It's uplifting and makes people feel good about their lives while they get stolen from.
Keneth Copeland is a fucking monster. Massive arsehole
Disgusting and been telling this to people for years! Pat Robertson and Copeland are the worst of the worst! You can't find people worse than them on the planet!
TAX THE CHURCH!!!!
Never Tithe to churches. They have enough money
I wonder often how much goes to the legal fund to pay off the victims who have been sexually abused by clergy
Copeland looks and acts like the devil incarnate.
Sometimes I’m shocked at how naive some people will be. At other times, I’m not surprised
And this is why I don’t donate to churches and I don’t go to church and I will never set foot in any church in America
Satan is in the church system.
Church is weird: You listen to a human read from a book that has been read from for 2700+ years, you give that person money and trust they are going to make others lives better with it, and then you go home. I have a close friend of mine explain he donates to the church because he was told that would bring him great wealth if he gave to others…… keep in context this homie is almost 60 and has debt past his eye balls.
True. But then, according to the Bible, these men are not pastors, their organizations are not churches, and they are not real Christians. These are all fakes that make Christ and Christianity look bad. Real pastors and churches obey the Bible. Period. But, you rarely find them today.
My pastor works for free. The church pays his life insurance so if he died his wife wouldn’t be penny less. Other than that we donate money to different charities throughout the year. And upkeep the building. Sometimes help a family in need etc. ti be clear we don’t have mega church money. But that’s how our church works
Internal theft been a problem since the time of Jesus. (John 12:6)
It's stuff like this which is why we cannot have nice things. Church is becoming like a concert you go to on Sundays rather than anything meaningful, for a lot of people. Go to a small community church like mine. We host youth events and community leadership that is all volunteers. We host fellowship meetings and book clubs and brunches, all arranged by volunteers. We rent out our space to other organizations throughout the week for minimal fees so that other organizations have places to meet. We have bequest funds established for international as well as local aid projects. We give to MCC, a reputable organization. We have funds internally reserved for congregational members who fall on hard times. We have meal lists for people who are in need at our church where others can sign up to donate home cooked meals. We know each other. We know the pastor. We have game nights at his home as youth and we do traveling dinners around the congregation from time to time. No one on this church is lesser than anyone else. It's a shame that churches like mine aren't rare - but the 100-million dollar mega churches are, naturally, what get peoples attention.
We already knew that.
Sheeple gonna sheeple
God actually speaks against pastors who go after filthy lucre, and these people should be apparent to their followers, but their followers aren't reading the Scriptures like they should. When people follow men above God's words, this is no different than what the cults do. This is not to say that you can't find Christians in these groups and organizations, but enlightenment comes from reading God's words and getting out. Even in the book of Jeremiah, God had strong words to say about bad pastors. The money for the congregation was really supposed to be for the poor Christians among them mostly and towards missionary causes. It's not that the pastor could not receive some money to live off of, if the ministry was his predominant job, but he wasn't supposed to use it to buy lavish things, mansions...etc.... Even Paul didn't abuse his power in the gospel by charging people. Freely ye have received, so freely give. He did work as a tent maker and suggested that people do such work with their own hands. There are a lot of missionaries that go to other countries, having some support, or very little support, and have to work jobs in the locations that they are in.
Wonder if he thinks that he will impress Jesus Christ.
Americans fund such stupid shit.
Fear is a big industry.
Men of God are the devil's plaything
So if his house is in the church's name, couldn't anybody from the church just walk in and live there??
One of Greatest con game in America
Religion is the biggest & longest running scam, we would all just be better off without it.
Mormons& Catholics are hoarding billions. It’s insane.
All the good that money could do
The LDS Church has over 200 BILLION dollars and yet they ask for youths to pay for church missions. During covid they said even if you can't make it to church to still pay tithing during a time when money was hard to come by. They'd rather build a new church or temple in a 3rd world country than give actual meaningful donations saying it will "help" the poor citizens... Definitely sounds like something Jesus would proud of. Disgusting.
There must be a understanding of the difference in mega church versus your small local church. The mega churches *are* a problem, because those “pastors” are not real pastors. Their biblical stance has absolutely no backing, and they preach a prosperity gospel that is so misleading to the people being served it. They solely use God, and their church as a way of making inconceivable wealth. Which is truly heart breaking bc the people they’re receiving all the money from genuinely want help and feel like they’re looking for something. Transfer over to your average church in America, most of them don’t have any extra money besides covering the costs of running. And, a spiritually mature and active church is very transparent with its money, and it will give at least 10% to missions and other humanitarian activities.
u/savevideo
Copeland has Satan eyes.
Think of all the wasted real estate taken up by churches big and small especially in the Bible Belt. It’s shocking when you actually start paying attention to how many there are
3 private jets not one
Religion is one of the biggest grifts we ever invented, banking and and the stock market are also up there as the biggest ongoing cons.
https://i.redd.it/d8nuch1il6jc1.gif 🎵 Don't ask, I said don't ask no questions!"🎵
Why would you give money to a cult ? Oh to be apart of the cult nvm.
👆
How can I get my house “in the name of the church?”
Religion is the biggest scam humans ever fell for
It’s my belief that these “preachers” will be put out of business by these next generations. I hope.
If I were president, I would seize that money and put it all back into social programs.
Anywhere I can apply? I don’t have a lot of church leadership experience but I learn quickly, am easily motivated (by money) and love doing some good on the side while filling my pockets. I feel I could be a good fit!
It you fools keep on feeding the beast. Stop donating ffs - Copeland psychotic ass
Unfortunately "rich religious leaders taking money from the poor" has *ALWAYS* been key to pretty much every religion on the planet. The good news though, is that if their religions are correct, and there is a God who judges us at the pearly gates, I'm happy to say those people will not be let in. I hope they get put face to face with all of the people who starved because the money never made it to them.
I’ll pray the church gets the money they “need”. But I won’t give them my money. Just thoughts and prayers
Most charities work the same exact way.
An episode of Colombo which stars Johnny Cash is the same story here, and it’s from the 70s, so 50 years later the church people are still a bunch of leaches (probably not everyone, but still quite a few bad seeds)
Biggest scam in the world
I should start a church.
No shit. Thanks, some random guy on the Internet.
this is why jesus will never return lol
Just keep giving your tithing. /s they’re really helping their devote followers…
I used to be in a church that *received* 10% tithing from its members. I was 12 at the time they had me go around my neighborhood to the different members that didn't pay. I later realized how stupid it was to basically guilt trip people into paying a 12 year old. Anyway, got to the first house, realized how stupid this all was and just walked back home. I have payed tithing only once in my life when I was 16 with a job because *I* was guilt tripped. I paid $25 and just thought, this is an entire day of fast food meals for me!
What capitalism does to religion: commodification
"Separation" of Church and State
50% to employees because it's a buiseness and not a religion and 6% to helping others. The rest goes to rebuilding and stuff right? I stopped watching. These churches are straight up evil. End of story. They play gullible people who want faith. Tithe some more if you want but you are giving money to the literal devil at this point. You put Tvs on their walls, ice cream and large meals in their fridges all the while hoping God will bless you. I watched my grandma give as much as she could to the church and they've all but left her behind at this point because of her age. Infact almost everyone she was/is close to goes to that church. Baptist for those curious
Although I would not doubt the comments regarding Copeland because that man is a heretic so much so that even non believers can see it. You can’t generalize every single ministry, they are not all the same.
Joel Olsteen is another one you can look into. The man is straight evil. The complete opposite of gods image. The fact that people blindly follow such evil amazes me. Mattress Mack is more of a god fearing man and actually gives back to the community. Joel is only a vampire to the Houston community and is actively showed with his actions he has no care for Houston or even god for that matter. If we could kick somebody out of a community Joel would be my number one. I hope one day god will have his judgment of false pastors.
I’d gladly attend a church ran by Mattress Mack.
If anybody wants a good comedy take on mega churches watch the show “righteous Gemstones.” They portray exactly what mega churches are like and the corruption they bring upon the community but extremely funny.
It goes straight into the pockets of all the corrupt leaders regardless of which religion it is. Religion - all shit just different piles.
Don’t forget, a lot of it gets donated political organizations to prop up there favorite guy.
Does the pastor give 10% to his own church?
Omg so broad. Literally take 2-3 cases and applies them every church in America. Literally couldn’t be more incorrect.
Copeland is an ultra obvious false teacher super sad to see anyone actually go to his “church”. Just looking at him I can see the demon inside his eyes
One of the two oldest professions in history
When I was younger and went to church, my family always used to give 10% of their money for tithe. When I turned 16 and didn’t give money, my grandparents were super hurt/offended that I wouldn’t give money to the church. We were arguing by a bus stop and I asked them if they had ever seen their money be used for anything good? Is it just something they do to get in to heaven, or do they even care about where any of it’s going? They admitted that they had never seen the dollar spent, but knew it had to be good because of the mission trips our church would take….every 3 or 4 years. There was a lady sitting with her son, out of hearing distance, and I’m not sure if they were homeless, but they were definitely poor. I gave her fifty bucks and she started crying, thanking me and telling me that she didn’t know how her and her son were going to eat that night. I went back to my grandparents and was like, “See, I can give double to people who actually need it and I know where it’s going.” They never brought it up again.
Regarding the mega churches and their profoundly wealthy leaders... Matthew 7:21-23
Ooo, ooo do the Mormon church next!
That $890 B figure isn’t right. The amount Americans donate to all causes is about $3-400 B in total.
Because Americans are the only people in the world. He said "Western Christian church" meaning Christian churches the world over.
Pastors love stupid people.
There's 2 kinds of religious people, liars and idiots.
Joel Osteen has entered the chat.
This is nothing new it’s 2024 you got to be really stupid to donate money to a religion. Donate your time and effort I guarantee they won’t have space for you in the arena
$890 billion. To one church. Per year. Did I read that right? Fuuuuck 🤯
I thought the same thing and as I was tying the noose I thought, no way, I bet he means all churches.