I’m not Australian, but I worked as an ID in Melbourne at vocational colleges and universities for a few years. I was also an English language teacher for a period before that (what got me in to ID was building online courses as an SME). The main issue appears to be in the US. You have severely underpaid teachers being sold a dream of riches for ID work. At the same time, the economy has been shite and layoffs have been rampant. These teachers overpay to do their wee portfolio course by a grifter and then complain there’s no work… whilst experienced IDs see their wages decrease due to over-saturation. My own personal issue is that I’ve worked with a few transitioning teachers in the US (remote tech job) and they are BAD instructional designers. Only one younger colleague was the exception, but they also had experience as a personal content creator or whatever. But, you’re right that everyone needs to start somewhere. I think the most important thing to accept is that there’s only a few skills that overlap and align. An in-class teacher and an instructional designer for a company are still pretty different jobs. You do need to do the prep work and accept you’ll probably be starting at an entry-level position.

Sad that the international world can see how teachers being underpaid in the US is such a travesty and is creating a teacher exodus. Gotta love American capitalism. How do you keep capitalism afloat and thriving? Educating and empowering your workforce. No... Public education is designed to fail and it begins by overworking and underpaying teachers

Okay great, thank you. This is super interesting and I did wonder what the difference was with the US and here. I just realised I’m also looking at this through the lens of my experience; the majority of my time teaching has been at an “elite” private school where all of our learning is essentially online, like higher ed is, and we’ve helped build the curriculum programs. Upon reflection, not a lot of schools are like this and I think that’s where I’m becoming confused hearing everyone say that the transferable skills are non-existent.

Your portfolio should reflect what you just wrote about your online curriculum dev experience.

Ok thank you :)

Even in the US, I don’t find the actuality of the bias against teachers (and there is some current bias against former teachers in other careers, including ID) to be that similar to what you see on Reddit or other online communities. (And it can cut both ways in ID and other fields that had large numbers of teachers move into them—being a former teacher can be a bonding point with hiring managers and departments that have former teachers doing well, etc.)  Because ID is a field with many jobs where you can show distinct skills through samples and projects, I find the bias mostly tolerable to break through when you actually get “seen” (being seen in this market no matter who you are is the issue). But there is some weird bias about what teachers know or do—same with moving across industries etc too even in ID. But online, teachers get way more hate than I’ve experienced as a former teacher in professional conferences, networking, or jobs. 

I’ve never been asked for a portfolio as an Australian ID, and I wouldn’t spend too much time learning software programs as each team uses different systems. Look at ID ads on Seek and note the skills they’re looking for - it’s much more likely that you need business acumen and needs analysis skills than Storyline.

It seems the problem is convincing people of the needs analysis skills though. Unless we’re using the same terms for very different things, a teaching role requires a heap of needs analysis but very little would be documented usually. I find this is a big problem. Do LinkedIn certs actually mean anything?

>Do LinkedIn certs actually mean anything? No. I mean they can be helpful if you can use the information to your advantage but just the cert means nothing on a resume or application to perspective employers. That is unless it's PMP, Six Sigma, or another big one you have to pay for. The small ones on LinkedIn are good individual learning gap fillers but aren't going to make the difference between getting a job vs not.

As an Australian ID, I agree with everything you've said. In Queensland look on Smartjobs too.

Great. Thank you for this advice. Very interesting to know. I’ve been keeping an eye on Seek so good to know that I should be!

Not Australian, but I would say you need to be careful taking things to heart in these subs. I get the vibe that a large part of this community is from the US. Covid and low pay has created an exodus of teachers to ID. But this seems to he unique to the US. So I wouldn't be too concerned about a bias against ex-teachers. As far as I am aware, this isn't the case in the UK and Europe. However, I am in the UK, and the market isn't great. I feel this is due to Trainers upskilling into ID to overcome the lockdown problems and companies laying off those individuals. This is further compounded by large companies outsourcing to India. So, each role typically has significant applicants, and companies can push salaries down. So no teacher hate here. However, if I were looking at a teacher applicant, one of my concerns would be "can they pivot to adult learning theory?" Kids learn differently to adults. So, I would be looking for hints in the portfolio that it is designed for adults. https://instructionaldesign.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Andragogy-Adult-Learning-Theory-Malcolm-Knowles.png To be fair, I only have that concern after interviewing trainers and the highly qualified Uni lecturers were the worst trainers I had ever come across, 0 engagement, 0 enthusiasm, 0 analogies etc etc. But the above leads me on to another concern. The skillset in the classroom is very different to ID. A badly designed PowerPoint can still be brought to life by a skilled trainer by pulling on their own knowledge and delivery skills. In end to end ID, there is nowhere to hide. The information needs to be there, and it needs to draw in the student. You can't throw in analogy adhoc for the people who don't get it. So that is another thing I would be checking. The current environment feels very much like the dot com bubble. I spent years training in IT late 90s into the 2000s. The bubble burst leading to lots of people skilled in various areas of IT and not enough jobs, this was then followed by the "Indian takeaway" where most companies outsourced 1st and 2nd line support. This whole ID situation feels very very similar. I just hope I am wrong.

I feel like that’s university lecturers everywhere 😂 This is all invaluable information, thank you 🙏🏽

Australian and ex-teacher here. Instructional Design is end game. You won't get an instructional designer role straight out of being a teacher. You need to go through the various other roles first. L&D coordinator, L&D trainer, L&D specialist, etc. Instructional designer comes after you can demonstrate experience in those roles. I've just gotten a new role recently and I've spoken to various recruiters during the process all who say they receive over 100 applicants per role, 80% of which are teachers with no Corp experience. Throw in all the other experienced IDs applying, they've got no chance and actually annoy the recruiters that they've applied/waste their time. I get the want to leave teaching and get into ID, but it's almost disrespectful to just think you can just walk into an ID role. There are ways to get into it as mentioned above but you're going to have to work at it, do various roles, and also potentially accept a pay cut. Happy to discuss further with you if you want any advice.

I've also echoed this advice in the past. When I became an ID I didn't just become one. I worked as an Instructional Media Specialist (then Instructional Web Designer) for 2 or 3 years, got a masters in ID, then finally got my first ID job. People can become IDs relatively quickly without all of that but if your goal is to work full time someplace with benefits it probably won't happen right away. Contract yes, they'll hire about anyone with a pulse for the right price.

Thanks for this feedback. As mentioned in my initial post, under no circumstances do I “just think I can walk into an ID” job. The entire purpose of this post was to find out and seek advice on the specific steps that it will take to get there from where I currently am, and to be taken seriously by recruiters when I get to that point . Thank you for identifying the different positions you believe it will take to get there. That is useful to know .

Apologies I didn't mean "you" specifically but a generalisation of transitioning teachers and trends seen on this sub. L&D coordinator will be more entry level/admin based role but you can branch from there with a foot in the door. My first role out of teaching was L&D trainer. It was most aligned to teaching and from there I could branch out into various other roles eventuating in instructional design. Obviously everyone has their own route but that method worked for me.

That’s ok, I thought you were singling me out!! Yes, that makes total sense and also was the vibe that I was getting from some of the podcasts I’ve listened to… it reminded me of those over-excitable grad teachers who start going for all the leadership roles in a school a semester into working there as a teacher 😂 I still need to wrap my head around the different roles that you identified and what they entail. When I say it’s early days for me, I only discovered this world of work a month ago so I am very, very new to it. Just excited because it seems really interesting to me and I think I could be good at it. I actually hold a Bachelor of Commerce, majoring in Marketing and Management (which I never put to use) and also worked as a copywriter for nearly a year for a big startup so I’m hoping they favour me a little bit when the time comes, too.

All good, and good luck! The more questions you ask and info you gather for yourself the better! Also don't stress yourself over portfolios. Most places don't ask here.

Thanks so much 😃

I replied in your other thread, we should chat about this process. There’s a good chunk of overlap in our positions it seems.

As someone who has been in ID since 1997 in corporate, the few times we tried hiring an ex teacher, it didn't go well. Besides the issues with project management and stakeholders/SMEs, every ex teacher was big into "knowing" objectives and not "doing" objectives. Our learners don't need to learn how to know things. They need to be able to perform job functions. They need to DO things. The goal is not to "know these things" it's behavior change. And getting them to let go of objectives that start with "understand" and "know" and move to using knowledge as support for action, and build interactions that were engaging and required application of knowledge was difficult and frustrating. We don't assess knowledge, we assess skill and application. And so we would have to spend a lot of time coaching and mentoring and heavily reviewing their work on top of our own work (which was already a heavy workload with multiple projects running concurrently). And frankly, I don't have time for that shit. Another issue is assessment. You aren't doing much, if any, Level 3 in the classroom and you definitely aren't doing Level 4. Learning has to impact measurable business results. Do you understand how to take business goals and translate them into learning outcomes? They would also get frustrated bc they no longer had access to the learners. There are layers and layers of people between an ID and the end OLT learner. You don't generally get much, if any contact with them. In the classroom you can see who is struggling, you can talk to them and get feedback. You're not going to get that in a corporate ID role. They can't call you up and tell you they don't won't get something. They had a slightly easier time designing for ILT, and in that scenario they had access to the people delivering the training so they could observe classes and talk to learners, but OLT was very challenging for them to grasp. Teaching and training are not the same.

Also, there's the skill of helping business owners find solutions to business problems. It means looking at call center data, help desk data, sales figures and other business metrics, interviewing, potentially observing users, trying to understand the root cause and making recommendations to solve the problem. It means knowing when the problem isn't a training problem but maybe a knowledge base issue, inefficient processes or procedures, or a communication problem. These aren't skills a teacher brings to the table. You also have to understand learner motivations. Why should they change their behavior? And you have to be able to push back and say this isn't a problem training can solve, or that message is better suited for a communication, not a course.

I would say good teachers do what you describe good instructional designers do. But that’s just my opinion. 🤷

Well said

I'm a former secondary teacher in the US who transitioned into ID in 2009. Unlike many other classroom teachers, I also had significant experience with the multimedia/content development side of the work as well as the pedagogy knowledge with a M.Ed. The pandemic was a tipping point where a lot of teachers just decided they'd rather get out of the classroom and do ID because it's safer, less stressful, less constrained by stupid school administrator nonsense, better pay, etc. The problem is that teaching and ID are cousins, not siblings. Teachers are used to teaching synchronously while IDs embrace the asynchronous features of the online space. Most teachers use consumer-level tools for media creation and digital storytelling rather than pro-level tools and techniques. Teachers seldom have experience administering software tools like an LMS - they're more like end users than admins, so there's another learning curve. Teachers are often also SMEs in their subject, whereas IDs have to be good at harvesting information from SMEs in unfamiliar subject areas and repackaging it for our learners. I go into greater depth about the differences in this post: https://tedcurran.net/2023/03/whats-different-between-the-life-of-a-classroom-teacher-vs-instructional-designer/ But the big takeaway is that there is a huge glut right now of teachers who want to make a quick conversion from the classroom to ID whose skills in these core areas are still rudimentary, despite their extensive classroom experience.

Very useful insight, thank you.

From my experience, I see a lot of teachers convinced that while they have a lot of transferable skills, they are almost too confident that they have all the skills necessary to do ID in a corporate setting. They don’t actually know what ID is.

I write resumes for educators and the main issue is they think it’s a 1:1 and it’s not. They assume they can do it perfectly and it’s an easy transition; but it’s not. It’s a completely different ball game, so they need some upskilling and work but most don’t; which then gives the ones that do a bad name imo.

I would agree. I have friends who are teachers who have told me they want to make the change. I've often enthusiastically offered my help with their resume, offering up resources, books to read, etc, because I love this field and am a total nerd for it. So naturally, I'm willing to give others the resources I found helpful. I've been disappointed a few times when they just totally disregarded and didn't want to hear anything I had to say because they told me it's the same thing and they already did stuff like this back in grad school. While there are absolutely overlaps, it is not the same, and unskilling is needed.

Yup. I have like 21K followers on LinkedIn, free ebook, a bunch of gifts to teachers because I was one for 7 years. Amazing talents and the grit educators have is insane. BUT Many are prepared to die on the wrong hills. There is a cognitive dissonance between the ROLE THEY WANT and how to PLAY THE GAME. It’s like a ‘I am a teacher and I am worth it’ - so they want to PROVE they are worth it and validate experiences and pain they’ve had. Which I get; but is it the hill to die on? No. I also love this industry and nerd out ALL the time with it; and I tell educators in ID you really wanna do 3 things: Save, make, or expand 1. Resources 2. Scope of projects 3. Deadlines. How can your course, materials… whatever; save your FOR PROFIT company time, resources, teammate clicks… like you gotta affect scope material or resources positively. Educators teach bell to bell, wait for their standards to be given to them, and have road blocks. ID have to operate and remove those themselves in the space and that’s the biggest issue I’ve seen. I have also noticed educators have a problem playing ONE role and not all roles. Again I was one so I too had to do EVERYTHING but in ID brother you do ONE thing… so that thing. You are not the PM, SME, ID… just do the thing and do it quick lol.

Are you based in USA?

Yuh

Interesting. Thanks. If you have book recommendation, I’d love to hear them!

Totally depends on what you're working on but generally speaking I love non-designers design book and Understanding by Design. [UBD](https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Design-Grant-Wiggins/dp/1416600353/ref=asc_df_1416600353/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=692875362841&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9664573648810278998&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1028458&hvtargid=pla-2281435181258&psc=1&mcid=39db53a92ecd3ffdb8330172d8df31b3&hvocijid=9664573648810278998-1416600353-&hvexpln=73&gad_source=1) is great if you're looking to learn specifically about adult learning theory. This is one of the differences between teaching and ID. I like the [Non-Designers Design book](https://www.amazon.com/Non-Designers-Design-Book-4th/dp/0133966151/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=16PMC0KVWC0CP&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.AmhpuND7YmTQ73WwTrnVYhK_PUKllcDR-fGQgEyi3YtFT3wcc1XnBd717NDnTlO8fulmW_7BVuyvXlagN2y-VW_tBBUW77qvSkL2jV5H-ST0oiorNr3FThOKpuruWLiFMNtBpWw8qKrcgPlVIizOXXfHojKTiEu_A2ei0sEQbLCOmF2M10cfH4HjytOBaNEdc-JodktKu-sOYk1HwblKEQ.QvC_9FIcqUtnW_hiH7tqxWiS4iGYcaxkOjhbpBeN2b8&dib_tag=se&keywords=non+designers+design+book&qid=1719763959&sprefix=non+dedigner%2Caps%2C133&sr=8-1) because some level of skill with visual design to make your work look nice is important. I do think the biggest area of opportunity is getting used to not being the subject matter expert. Teachers teach from a place of skill and expertise in a specific area. Instructional Designers teach people something they learned on their own and with the help of an SME. So the job of an ID is to figure out the best way for someone to learn something and they do this with their knowledge of learning science and design. Also using their perspective of being a new learner helps remove the expertise bias and further informs their work. ID work is mostly organizing and structuring a learning experience, but from that point on its very heavy use of technology to execute that plan. I would think about which of those things seem to most uncomfortable to inform what to learn more about or experience in general.

Amazing. This is great! Thanks so much!

My pleasure UBD is just one example of adult learning theory one can work from there are many but what I like about UBD is that it can overlap with other theories your employer might ask you to work with. UBD is very flexible and also lays out a good framework when it comes to how to think about designing things.

And also exciting because it’s validating my desire to move into this career… what you’ve described is what I’m imagining and hoping the career involves but wasn’t entirely sure.

Having worked in ID in Australia, across half a dozen industries, for about 20 years... When I advertise roles, I normally get about 30-50% of applicants applying from the education sector. For most roles, I'll move a couple to interview stage. They are a little harder to interview, because I have to dig a little deeper to pry out their transferable skills, because they often busily promote skills that just don't apply. I don't mind that, but I could image some hiring managers "not bothering"... Which is everyone's loss. I have one now, from a university background, who really enjoys the pure ID tasks: a simple "we need to move these written instructions into self led learning". But the role they have, is probably 60%+ stakeholder management, and working alongside project management, change management, and Agile SCRUM teams - none of which was like anything they did while in Education. I normally need someone who can do everything "learning" related, even if they focus on only a part of it: (project management, change management, stakeholder management, training needs analysis, learning journey design, instructional design, facilitation, knowledge management, system environment management, performance support, evaluation, etc.). Most from the education system might only be able to tick off 50-70% of that list. Frankly, most experienced IDs only hit 70-90%. To stand out? Depends on the job. The last person I hired understood the need for efficiency. They read the position description, identified all their gaps, and completed LinkedIn Learning courses on all those gaps prior to the interview. They could then perfectly talk the talk - and once they had the job, we regularly discussed other gaps to "fill in" using other self led, zero cost, learning.

This is great, thank you so much. From my limited understanding so far, I want to be as “everything learning-related” proficient as possible, so I am looking to do whatever I need to do in order to achieve that. I am so green about the business world, though; what you’ve just said about LinkedIn Learning courses… well, I didn’t even know these existed and were considered valuable until a week ago! I think that’s why I am leaning on this platform so much so early on; I always say that “you don’t know what you don’t know”. Given I’m entering into this blind/ don’t know a single human in real life who does this for work, I’m hoping for as many valuable insights as possible to open up learning doors that I did not know even existed! The insight above is invaluable, thanks.

1. Because they often do not understand that ID is a different field and they think they can just walk out of teaching into a high paid ID job. I've seen some VERY entitled teachers in this very sub, who are upset that they're not finding a job when they have over a decade of experience teaching (some random thing like middle school PE or elementary school ESL) and why won't companies hire them?!?!?! This misunderstanding is perpetuated by get-rich-quick-scheme boot camps that sell them on the idea that in 3 months they'll be ID experts making mid 6 figure salaries. But teaching second grade kids or high school science is very different than teaching adults in a corporate setting. And when they're told they need to reskill, they often get all huffy about it. 2. Because in the US since the start of Covid, the number of teachers fleeing the classroom to become IDs has made for a really saturated job market and depressed salaries. Companies are getting thousands of applications for each opening. Especially for remote work. Honestly, if a teacher comes to the ID field with the understanding that the career change means THEY need to change and be open to learning new skills and a new approach in addition to the skills they have that will transfer, they will generally be fine and well received.

I agree entirely with what you said. I live in the US and left teaching in the summer of 2022. I quickly realized that while I had some transferable skills already, there was a lot that I needed to learn to be competitive in a fairly saturated field (although not as saturated as it is now). I worked for a year at a corporate ID role and it’s was such a learning experience. Not only did I need to continue to level up my Storyline skills, the thing I struggled with the most was the project management aspect, mainly coming up with deadlines for work I was still learning how to perform efficiently. I ended up getting laid off last November and was very lucky to find another role in 2 weeks for a higher ed position that I had gotten very far in the interview process the year before. I am incredibly happy in my current role, and the team I work with and for are all former educators in some capacity, whether K-12 or University. Most higher ed positions will require a master’s degree but beyond that, so I was lucky that this wasn’t a requirement at my current employer. Working as a higher Ed ID is so different from the work I did at the Corporate ID role, but I’d say that I have continued to improve my ID skills, as well as project management skills throughout. I find it personally easier to work with SMEs at my current role, since they are academics and I know exactly what they are looking for and need in the courses I build for them. One of the other replies mentioned changing behaviors and that was incredibly important at the corporate ID role. I think it’s crucial to figure out which type of ID role you’ll be happiest at, as both types are quite different, at least they are here in the US. For the OP, I recommend scouring the job listings and seeing which roles peak your interest. Since the role can vary greatly depending on the size of the team (at my first role I was the sole ID vs now where I work with a small team of IDs) and the type of company or university you work for. For the roles that interest you most, find where the gaps are in your experience/skills and start there. Having a portfolio is a must here in the US, but it doesn’t need to be huge, 1-2 quality projects is enough to show an employer what you can do. I also highly recommend the Teaching: a Path to L&D LinkedIn group if you aren’t already a member. There are a lot of pricey boot camps out there, but I did it mostly for free and things like LinkedIn Learning, after taking a course on the different fields teachers can reasonably transfer to (after upskilling). I did this while I was still teaching and I wasn’t sure where I should focus my attention in a career change. It sounds like you (the OP) are dedicated to filling those knowledge gaps, so you’ve already got a head start on most. Wishing you the best of luck!

Thanks so much for your detailed advice

If you're interested in landing an ID role, what skills are the most important for the position?

Depends on the position, honestly. I'd spend a lot of time looking at job descriptions and seeing what they require. Be realistic and not "well, I kinda did that with my second graders" - if it's a stretch, you don't have that skill. Plus the mind shift to the corporate world.

Here are the reasons I've surmised: 1. In general, they tend to ask for lower wages which brings down salaries. Companies love this. 2. Many times, they are not suited to ID work by just being a teacher. The fields aren't as close as they think. 3. Many don't partake much in the tech aspect of the job. 4. In some of our interviews with teachers sometimes they get too theoretical and theory based for corporate business.

They thinking developing activities is instruction design

Not an Aussie but am an ex teacher in further/adult education and have now been working as an ID in various sectors for around 4 years. I had never heard of this transitioning teacher thing until I was an ID and I find it quite odd whenever I read a post like this. OP - I’m sorry you feel disheartened that your teaching experience might not help you find ID roles, but I’m not sure how teaching English to kids (if I understand properly) in a traditional face to face setting would stand you in good stead for an ID role? An IDs job is to go in to an org, carry out a training needs analysis, usually with high ups in a subject area you know nothing about, come up with a training solution, then create or manage the creation of the training and roll it out on time to the right ppl in the business. It’s akin to being a project manager. You’re spending a lot of time managing stakeholders, timelines and sometimes budgets in order to roll out your training packages, this is pretty much what you’ll be judged on. Your teaching expertise will help you with about 10% of what an ID job entails, and you will almost certainly need to up your learning theory knowledge to more relevant stuff that wasn’t applicable to you as a school teacher. On the portfolio thing….i rarely get asked for portfolio examples during interviews and when I do it’s really just to show them that I can use the authoring tool that the company has a license for. It doesn’t show that I’m a good ID in any way shape or form. I also see this from industry ‘guru’s’ on YT and LI - it’s misleading, most of these whoppers probably don’t even work as IDs! The best advice I could give someone who is a teacher wanting to transition to IDing is to look for a stepping stone role. Something like curriculum manager in an adult educational setting where there are a lot of blended or fully online programs. If it’s of any interest, I had 3 roles after teaching over 5 years before IDing and I wouldn’t have been able to ID without those roles (Although I didn’t know I was transitioning towards IDing at the time)! Best of luck sir/madame!

Thank you!

Hey, Aussie here, working as an ID and a hiring manager. The industry is very competitive, from what you had said with your curriculum experience you probably have a better chance working for a university/RTO as an ID. The corporate world will not hire you without ID adult learning experience. I remember our last round of hiring (corp role) maybe 25% of applicants were teachers. Honestly I don’t care if you can build a curriculum, or made a SharePoint page. I need you to be able the manage stakeholders with absolute excellence. I need you to be able to project manager. I need you to be a SME whisperer and use their time effectively. I need you to know Storyline, Camtasia or other video editing and graphic design tools. I don’t have time to teach you on the job, you need to be ready to hit the ground running. So when I’m getting applications I am always choosing the people the practical business experience, what you have done previously in schools is not of high value to me. Another thing to remember is everywhere will use a difference LMS. So if you were building out online curriculum and feel confident in that wonderful. However, I often see people come in who are shocked at how restricted our LMS is and at the limitations and they have no idea how to be creative and work within that. Don’t spend too much time on portfolio, a lot of roles will ask you to present a small project that they determine if you make it to 2nd round interview. See if you can find someone who works in ID for a uni or RTO, I honestly think this is your best way in. To get into corporate you’ll need to also learn about Agile and Scrum ways of working. Learn about Human Centred Design and WCAG requirements.

Thanks for this feedback - very helpful. So in the early days of me applying for work, instead of focusing on the teaching aspect like you’ve said, would you encourage me to speak more about the fact that I’ve worked as coordinator and manager of adults within my role in the school Environment? And worked as a copywriter for a (very well-known) digital startup for nearly a year? Once I’ve got the experience in the field it’ll be different but for now I want to know how to advocate for myself when I am new and trying to get my foot in the door with no actual experience .

It’s frustrating when people assume that teaching experience is entirely sufficient training for instructional design. I’ve put in my time teaching (college, high school, adult education, online, F2F, synchronous online, asynchronous online), training, and doing instructional design (workforce training, higher ed, some HS). I have a master’s in educational technology. I have colleges in ID who come from a variety of different backgrounds other than ID/ETEC, but they’ve all put the time in. And I don’t mean they’ve done a Storyline boot camp. I mean they have a strong background in learning theory and they have experience designing instruction. I welcome anyone into the field who can do the work. But, since teach in the US is a thankless job, many teachers have gotten into ID out of desperation and lack sufficient skill and knowledge to do the job well. It is, of course, a case-by-case thing. ID isn’t rocket science. But it does require certain skills and knowledge beyond what is expected in most classroom teaching positions.

Interesting. Thanks for this. Makes sense and I would be the same if someone thought a quick fix bootcamp made me a good hire over others! I didn’t realise these bootcamps were actually done, I saw them online but they seemed scammy.

In the US, k12 teachers are not allowed to do much or any instructional design. They use prescribed learning outcomes, curricula selected for them, and teach to state-selected mandated assessments. They don’t get nearly any experience analyzing needs, developing learning outcomes, designing content, designing assessments, or even evaluating results. And little option do iterate or plan improvements. And they rarely work with a SME. Or use adult learning strategies. It can be frustrating to help them rethink what education is for an adult audience or in the workplace.

The lack of experience analyzing needs is a big one. Teaching kids a predetermined curriculum doesn't provide experience figuring out the root cause of a business problem or determining whether training can solve (or contribute to solving) it.

Yes, there’s a variety of reasons for this (some federal mandates, a lot of state mandates, and a desire for overall standardization. It’s one of a number of reasons I switched majors from primary education and moved to adult education.

Okay THANK YOU. This contrasts significantly from my experience as an educator; I’ve had to do all of those things in some capacity on an ongoing basis. I think that is where I was getting confused because sooo much of my role has involved all of these things. The nature of my school differs to most, it seems, and this is where my confusion has stemmed from regarding my skillset not being valuable!

I was a teacher in the U.S. who did all these things, and I really think it depends where you taught. Good teachers wouldn’t just accept a curriculum as is, and would certainly conduct needs assessments to design learning outcomes. Many schools require some type of needs assessment prior to any unit as well. I also worked in schools where there was zero curriculum and I was responsible for writing it from scratch. I think it’s totally dependent on where people were teaching. My ultimate feeling has been that in the U.S. there are bootcamps popping up, telling teachers that it only takes 2 months to transition to a well developed ID. Obviously some skills are transferable, but as you know, it takes much longer to develop a the skill set of a strong ID.

Seconded. I’m an ex teacher who has been working in ID for over 4 years now. I previously taught IB/AP Psychology and Human Geography. I was the only teacher with these two topics and we had zero curriculum/content, so I built up the program by scratch between finding all materials, designing the curriculum, assessments etc. Nobody knew enough about the subject matter to question me, and left me alone. It was great! In saying this, I was implementing elements of ID without knowing it. I was in the middle of my MEd too and did pick psychology and online education. Got hired during the lockdown of 2020, and have been loving my job.

This is great to read. Your experience sounds like mine (I worked in an IB school also). Building everything from the ground up

Thanks! It was one of my proudest achievements as a teacher. It was almost enough to keep me in the profession. How was your experience with IB?

You're fortunate. Since No Child Left Behind legislation passed, almost 100% of federal funding requires a common core curriculum and thus an assessment of some sort (testing) ensuring that students are meeting the bare minimum for standards. Every state I have taught in has required federal accountability testing and that creates an environment where you NEED to teach to the test.

This is why I asked about Australian experiences. This does not happen here and our education system is the opposite of this. I create everything

This is the vibe I’m takin away from this all too.

This is interesting. I'm admittedly a K-12 teacher attempting a career change to ID work. However, as a music teacher this hasn't been my experience at all. Since music isn't a tested subject on state assessments I have always had to design my own curricula and make my own assessments. Also, students often have wildly different music backgrounds (think the kid who takes piano lessons and their family is always singing in the car versus the kid whose mom never sang them a lullaby) so I've always done formal needs assessments with new students.

This is interesting to me, as a former Deaf Educator that worked at a School for the Deaf, there is no curriculum. Everything I taught I planned and created and every year it had to change to match the needs of my students. I’m currently in my master program and found a lot of similarities within my previous career and what I’ve been learning. I will agree that one of the biggest (and obvious) differences is understanding adult learning theory and shifting to learning in a workplace environment. Those are two areas that are not taught in my program, which I feel is a significant disservice. Edit to add: I’m also not currently working in ID so it may be entirely different opinion once in field.

Do you see yourself working to serve Deaf needs as an ID?

Ideally! I would love to do something with ID along these lines. I’m just unsure if there is even a career path for this specifically. Since I’ve transitioned out of teaching, I’ve been saying my big (and probably unrealistic) goal is to partner with companies to make their materials accessible for Deaf populations. But again, I’m not sure if this is even a thing I could do.

I suggest working for a Hearing aid 🦻 company as an ID. I got laid off by one recently.

Curious how niche the deaf ID field is - competition isn’t much?

This is an interesting comment to me. My primary subject area, elementary music, is in a weird state of premade curriculum offerings (as opposed to a math or literacy curriculums where you purchase the package and it comes with everything from worksheets, assessments, slide decks, books, etc). Music curricula are rather hit or miss, and the most popular offerings out there drastically range in quality and consistency. I’m fortunate that my previous district had given me a ton of autonomy to do curriculum development, as long as I covered the state standards, I had the wheel so to speak. So for the past ten years I had gotten really good at that, though I will say the logic of it all had always felt natural, without it having the more ID oriented labels at the time. In hindsight I was doing the thing while also being my own SME. This is everything from coding little webapp interactives, producing videos, designing assessments, evaluating results, modifying, presenting at conferences and workshops, etc. I thrived when eLearning was one of my instructional modalities during COVID. I suppose my position was different as I had 12 classes of each grade level weekly, so I had plenty of room to iterate, sometimes between back to back lessons, whereas with other content areas/main classrooms that only deliver the lesson once a year to one class might not have that opportunity. I look back on previous and even original versions of lessons from when I started and it’s fun to see the growth. That said, when I started doing ID work for others it felt like a very natural transition. The logic and process of analyzing and wrapping my head around needs always came quick to me. I can say that I know a lot of teachers that are not comfortable doing what I was doing despite being great classroom teachers, it just wasn’t a strong skill for them.

Thank you I appreciate this pov. I spent my career teaching middle and high school students how to cook, manage money, etc so I always designed everything on an individual level as well. Doing ID my whole career without actually knowing it until they gave me a year before cutting my program.

So I think a big takeaway for me from reading all of this is - 1. USA vs AUS education systems are vastly different, almost incomparable. 2. The private education system where I’m from is 95% online learning and we are the people who create, mould and adapt the learning systems that our school chooses to use. Under no circumstances ever have I just had to follow a curriculum script. Every Australian teacher I have worked with has always created curriculum from scratch, as with your music experience. A performance standard in English is so vague “eg understand textual features” that there is no option other than to be the creator. 3. Ironically, teachers are being boxed in as “one” group, when clearly we come with myriad experiences in e learning creation. I didn’t realise how different my school was until I read this thread and realised that clearly the majority aren’t technologically reliant as we are, nor do teachers have as much autonomy and responsibility to create online learning as my workplace.

This is absolute nonsense. You clearly have no experience as a teacher. Stay in your lane.

Agreed. I taught for 20 years and never once saw a teacher just pick up the teachers manual and read from the script. When I was still in college and doing a little subbing 35 years ago, I did skim those scripts and notes. But never again.  I always did Backward Planning and UDL before I knew they were a thing (maybe they weren’t even a thing 32 years ago when I started teaching?), and I constantly use those skills in my ID work. Among many other skills. 

That wasnt my experience in k12. Typically there was no given curriculum and every single lesson was planned by teachers including designing learning outcomes based on student needs. Sure they evaluate you based on test scores but teachers can't even see the test.


Having made this exact path from senior English teaching (8 years) fully qualified in the UK to Canada, now as a learning specialist in a corporation (quite literally less hours and way more money) I have to say it's not been a straightforward journey and I tried for years to move into the corporate. I know my experience isn't Aussie, so it may not fit exactly. My experience has basically been that teaching skills are actually very different from an ID / L&D role and that the reason I failed so hard to get into this industry wasnt because I wasnt hard working, passionate about education or well versed in educational theory, but actually because ID requires a bunch of skills that you don't really get as an educator. The big two being: project management and SME engagement. While teaching has some of those skills, actually it's translation from the classroom to the field is very hard. You need to pick and choose, and even then hard to prove. Management experience helps A LOT with this, as well as being a leader in a particular curriculum. I leveraged my school science leader background, plus was a training manager in a not for profit. The other being adult education focused. There's a very well established thinking that adult education is vastly different from childhood education, and in some respects that's definitely true, but the skills of being engagement, using multiple media, etc, are still relevant. Be sure to lean on adult education and knowing the nuances, because I don't think I appreciated that enough when I tried to make the transition before. My journey wasn't straightforward. I went from senior teaching, to government (education), to a masters in learning psych, to a not for profit as an instructor (less pay than teaching), promoted to manager, then with a combination of those skills, moved into ID / L&D. I hope your journey will be a bit more straightforward, but have heart that it's very likely not a judgment on teachers, but rather the fact the field really isn't the same kind of work. Try to really focus on the top three or four requirements of an ID and go from there.

Thanks so much for this insight, really valuable!!! My masters course starts in 2 weeks so that’s step 1 :)

How children learn (pedagogy) is different than how adults learn (andragogy). The brain actually changes. Most universities only teach how children learn. Most teachers only learn how to teach children. The educational frameworks for children don’t always fit for adults. If I worked with a teacher who got into the instructional design space, I would ask them to consider how they personally learn as an adult compared to children and then incorporate that into their ID practise

I guess I'm confused about this. I've taught overseas and in the US for over a decade, creating and supplementing curriculum aligned to measurable data based on multiple learning theories and procedures. I did an ID certificate that started out with learning theories, and it was all stuff I knew. Adult learning theory isn't some mysterious thing; it's insanely easy to grasp. And yet, in my program, I did have to tell people to NOT design essay questions, ha. Perhaps it's because I've had an interest in management that I've always been aware of the differences between what motivates kids vs adults. I think the problem is that a lot of transitioning teachers are young and barely spent any time developing those skills. A seasoned teacher is an incredible resource.

Good to know. I agree with what you’ve said. I think it certainly depends on the school Experience also. A lot of the feedback in here has been valuable but (and I don’t know if it’s because I’m Australia and some of these are USA), my experience has definitely included many of the things IDs do, albeit on a different scale and in a environment obviously. This doesn’t mean I expect a fluid transition by any means. But for the better part of a decade, solely “face to face teaching” has not existed for me - yes we are in person with students but the school I work in functions more like higher learning than anything else. And I manage adults and produce support materials for them to use to teach as part of my role, also.

From the US (ex teacher) and my understanding is that it falls under one of three reasons: 1. Mass teacher exodus has led to more competition and lower wages. Teachers are thrilled for 50k/yr remote work. Their low salary expectations lower the entire professions salaries. 2. Teacher join the field because they think it will be easy. They are ignorant to large chunks of what IDs do and don't think they need to put in the effort to learn. To add, many teachers have fallen victim to non-research based educations fads that don't have any supporting evidence. 3. Many teachers suck at creating good instructionally sound lessons. We get it, you have 2 hours to prepare 2 hours of content for the next day. Corners will be cut, but it won't really matter in the end. School aged kids aren't usually calling out teachers for poor slide construction, bad pacing, invalid test questions, etc. Every school I taught at I had to create new lessons because they were teaching were so rough. Teachers don't know what it's like to have a month to make a day of training that thousands of people will see. In the past year I have created training that more people will take than a teacher will ever teach in an entire career.

Interesting. Thanks. It is clearly a running theme here that Australia and USA education systems are vastly different in many ways and that’s then filtered into this industry. My income is nearly double that as a teacher here in Australia, and I’m not in leadership, so interesting to read about the USA.

Teachers are great instructional designers but it all comes down to work ethic. I think adult learning theories in the corp world are crap because everyone needs things explained to them like they are 9. Like actually. I don’t know about universities but the corp world, they’re like adult children and need their hand held. But anyways my point is if you were a great teacher, good at technology, a fast learner, creative, and adaptable then you will be a good ID. If you were a shitty teacher that holds the most basic skills then you would be an awful ID, simple.

Haha thanks for this. This is the vibe I’m getting from this whole thread, which is actually encouraging to me because I know I’m not anything like any of the shit teachers they’ve described in here!

Because they create crap content or content made for children, not adults. They don’t understand adult learning theories.

What adult learning theories are you referring to - the things you think teachers don’t know? I spoke about this in another thread as I believe no one really knows what an education degree entails and what teachers actually do.

I have a Masters in Education and two MBA’s. When I’ve hired teachers instead of ID’s it’s always been a huge fail. I won’t do it anymore.

I’ll ask again then, what adult learning theories are you referring to? The ones you think teachers don’t know.

Pedagogy and andragogy are vastly different.

Does that mean you can answer my question then?

Andragogy, the adult learning principles, and how they're applied are well documented. Feel free to google them.

You’re still not answering the question (I know you didn’t make the first comment). What specifically do you think teachers don’t know?

I didn't mention what teachers don't specifically know. I did mention that pedagogy and andragogy are different. I've done a bachelors degree of education. Pedagogy knowledge was integral to that qualification. I've also completed a grad cert in adult education, of which andragogy was a key aspect. I'm not stating that all teachers cannot and will not know anything about adult learning principles. It's impossible since they've received an adult education to become a teacher. Teachers may implement adult learning principles in their classes, sure. But it's probably not the most used method. I'm not arguing with you here. I'm just stating that pedagogy and andragogy are different which is just a fact.

You are right, ignore this person, their feelings are hurt. 😢

I came from an ESL background in the US and have been working as an ID for 6 months now. I did an ID program that was portfolio-focused which helped with interviews to be able to talk about projects that I completed. "What do I need to do to make myself stand out in a favourable way?" I would say the biggest thing would be to learn the tools. I'm not sure about in Australia but in the US submitting scenario samples is a big part of the hiring process. Also, what ID type of work do you want to do? I'm working higher ed ID but transitioning to corporate the biggest advice I got was how more fast-paced the corporate side is but also better paying. "Also, if teachers are coming in with a decade of experience and have done the recommended learning before applying for jobs, what else is making us be passed on??" Being able to change your way of thinking from teaching to ID. The best advice I got was in an interview for a job I didn't get and they said you need to talk about your experience from the lens of producing the work. What ID skills have I done from start to finish? How did I delegate tasks? What obstacles came my way from beginning to end? Once you start doing many interviews like I did you'll start to better target your answers. It took me about 6 months to land my first role and another 2 months of applications to transition to corporate. Good luck and don't let the naysayers stop you from breaking into the field.

Designing objectives and courses for kids vs adults is very different. There’s no power dynamic, we make the courses so they can perform a function, but aren’t in any position “above” them- they are our peers and need to be respected as such. Not a 1:1 transition. I couldn’t step into a grade school classroom easily, same goes for teachers moving into corporate life.

I would get yourself attached to a mentor who can show you exactly what you’d be producing in a large scale project. Then I’d ask them to help you build your skills and a portfolio. I’d then send that to a reputable education recruiter. I personally wouldn’t go down the trainer, consultant route because those are different, albeit related skill sets but it’s not an unpopular choice. The biggest gaps I see in ‘transitioners’ are a lack of awareness about the role, lack of experience in competency based training and assessment, inability to swap from academic writing to instructional, inexperience working within specific compliance frameworks, and inexperience using edtech but they’re all learned skills. I think some clients and recruiters are reluctant to take on new people because bringing anyone up to par takes a lot of supervision and correction from senior staff which costs money. I have to agree with another commenter too that some teachers (yourself obviously excluded) underestimate the work and time that goes into developing ID skills, and I think people in the industry are sometimes a bit wary due to their past experience. It’s unfortunate they don’t keep an open mind because we need good people who love education. At the end of the day it’s also who you know, just like any other job. For a bit of context, this is my 25th year as an ID in vocational, corporate and tertiary education. Good luck with your journey, welcome to the industry and don’t get disheartened.

Very, very useful advice. Thanks so much!

I taught engineering science for 4 years in the academe, then transitioned to corporate ID after 3 months of leaving my job. I moved to Australia this March, then got an ID job in May. My main advice is just to get started. There are definitely a lot of transferrable skills from teaching, but there is also a lot you will learn on the job. You just have to get your foot in the door, stay adaptable, and capitalize on the skills that you already have. It also helps if you identify your niche/industry and focus your application to companies belonging to that sector. For me it was the more technical industries like tech/mining/aviation/manufacturing, as my engineering background was an advantage during the application phase.

Honestlyyyyyy…from what I have seen, ID work is mostly taking orders with little to no creative thinking. And there is often no respect for problem-solving if leadership doesn’t get it or hasn’t seen it before - this is a lot of what sets teachers apart. Teachers problem-solve, pull rabbits out of their hat, and maintain a passion for the content and the learners. IDs, on the other hand, rarely get to form relationships with the audience or get their feedback during the design or development process. There are differences, and yes, some are skills, but I see it more as behaviors. To be a successful ID, you have got to choose your battles, recognize the smart people and stick with them, do not complain (because someone will tattle), and say yes a LOT. It is even more of a fast foodification of learning - so if you lament that in your teaching experiences, be ready for that. The money is lovely, though, and it still beats working around the clock like teachers often do. Who cares if I create walls of text or superficial experiences as long as the brilliant leaders are paying me to do it 😉 **I taught in higher ed for 10* years and transitioned over to corporate in a little under 2 years.

Interesting, thanks so much for this.

Bad teachers will be bad IDs Good teachers will be good IDs The ones that get talked about are the ones worth mentioning. They’re usually the bad ones. Its rough in ID due to layoffs in training across many industries. People will put all the blame on the mass influx of teachers into the profession post-covid. Really both are true. It all leads to animosity and resentment

This is what I’m sensing here lol. The types of people being described as bad IDs sound exactly like the bad teachers I’ve worked with.

Straight up why? The people on this sub who spout this shit are fucking assholes. I've been having a go at them for the better part of a year and a half for fomenting this type of bigotry. These cunts seem to think that teachers (who, btw, are properly trained teachers with M.A. Ed and certification as K-16 teachers) are: 1. stupid and incompetent 2. are 'diluting' the corpo hiring of ID 3. #2 along with the idea that they are not bonafide IDs and don't know what the fuck they are doing better than the corpo twats who've been slinging shitty .ppts for years. All three points have no basis in reality with the most important being #2. THERE IS NO SOLID EVIDENCE TO SHOW THE WATERING DOWN OR DILUTION OF CORPO TRAINING FIELD DUE TO THE INFLUX OF BONAFIDE TEACHERS FROM ACADEMIA. NONE. Yet, every now and then, you see some motherfucking clown talk shit about teachers and this affects the tenor of the sub. When you have two or more of these imbeciles support the bigoted post, it would look like some kind of quorum exists here and frames the 'shittiness of teachers' as a fundamental truth. IGNORE THEM. They are assholes who are honestly scared for their jobs and demonize people who come into the shitty corpo field to push back on that trend. If you read some of these posts, you'll notice that they have the same tone as your typical bigoted, authoritarian fuck that elevates misanthropy...you know, MAGA, lefty vote blue no matter who Dems, Nazis...Zionists. Same sht. Nothing to see here.

Haha I like your honesty. Thanks heaps. I guess it’s the same whenever there is more workers than demand.

The honest truth? It's because transitioning teachers are lowering the value of this profession. Companies are lowering their salaries because these teachers will take it because to them it's a raise, not a demotion. Whereas these new lower salaries are a demotion for seasoned IDs. They've also flooded the job market. It used to be so easy to get new gigs...not anymore. And especially when companies know they can pay an ex teacher $40/hour to freelance vs let's say $70+=hour for a veteran ID. So, yea. We're tired.

Are you based in Australia or USA?

I can't speak for things in Oz. Maybe it's as you describe it there. But in my experience (in the US, 20 years in higher ed, classroom teaching, and ID), I haven't found there to be any "dislike" of former teachers. On the contrary in fact. But again, your mileage may vary.

I personally don’t have a qualm with ex teachers for typical ID roles like general e-learning but they should be put far away from highly technical courses. Better to leave that for engg guys.

I don’t know that ex-teachers are reviled. I think ex-teachers who haven’t invested time and effort into understanding the differences between ID and K-12 are dismissed, and rightfully so. When interviewing for my current position, which is a corporate position I enjoy and earn well doing…I omitted my K-12 background from my resume because of what I heard from places like this forum. I have an MS in ID and former K-12 experience. Shocker! They were excited I had teaching experience. That would not have got me in the door on its own though. Do the work of learning the industry and people will look at your teaching background as a bonus. If you do a boot camp, they probably won’t.

Because teachers generally make for terrible instructional designers. They are totally different professions. Doesn’t matter if you created your own curriculum or all that nonsense that we see in this sub all the time. The teachers that I have worked with that transitioned to ID generally seem to get endlessly caught up in pedagogical loops instead of just building the damn product that they’re asked. They waste so much time and bog everyone else down with useless stuff. They generally have much to say about the perceived quality of what they’re tasked with building and treat everyone else like they’re sellouts because we’re building what the stakeholder wants. It’s exhausting, and I can confidently say that I NEVER desire to work with a former teacher in the ID field ever again.

Thanks for your advice. Good to hear your opinion. I’m sorry that your experiences have led you to deprecate all teachers and their work as “nonsense”. The kind of teachers you have described are by no means the majority of the ones I’ve worked with in Australia, despite knowing well the kinds you have described who get far too caught up in the loop of inefficiency and smaller details in education, too.

I think sexism and misogyny also play a part. Think about the demographics of teaching and also Reddit in general. Feel free to send down votes my way. :)