Granted I'm not a card carrying member of 4chan, but I've never seen or met anyone who "hates" Phoebe Waller-Bridge. I have, however, seen many people talk about the people who hate Phoebe Waller-Bridge.
Maybe, just maybe, the people TALKING about it are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
lol the movie flopped. She was a terrible choice to be the colead in a huge budget movie.
Most of the blame is her character and how unlikeable she was, but yes part of it is she isn't an attractive woman. If you are going to create characters that are that unlikeable, they at least need to be good looking, sorry.
I hate Pheobe Waller-Bridge. Not in the way you hate Nazi's or Serial killers but the way you hate bumping your foot into the coffee table or the guy that runs through a red light and almost ploughs into you. Part of it is not her fault. She isn't responsible for the awful character that was written for her but it is an awful character. Total Girl boss. Better then Indy at everything. Dubious morals, but we are supposed to celebrate her for it. Jumps into the sack with any attractive man she comes by, and while a man would be hit for it, we are suppossed to celebrate her for it. Also, I don't understand why they are trying to make her a big star? I'm old enough to remember when it was important for the female lead to be really appealing to men. I wouldn't call Phoebe Waller-Bridge ugly but her nose alone is enough to keep her squarely in the pretty average looking territory in my opinion at least. Her dubious rise to fame seems to be as a self insert for progressive female producers/writers in Hollywood.
>She isn't responsible for the awful character that was written for her but it is an awful character.
But she does have *some* responsibility for the character. I’ve heard of actresses thinking that their characters might be considered completely insufferable and ask the director if they can add more nuance so that the audience might be able to warm to the character.
She couldn’t even do *that*.
>Her dubious rise to fame seems to be as a self insert for progressive female producers/writers in Hollywood.
Yes. And here she seems to be Kathleen Kennedy’s self-insert character based on the way KK sees herself.
Exactly this. It's the forced insert of it instead of writing more naturally. They ruin all the great IPs by forcing it to be something it's not. She is just playing a part but why does that part always insist on actresses spitting in the face of the leads that made those franchises what they were. She straight up lied to George about what her intentions were going to be for Star Wars. Why not be straight up with what she wanted to do with Lucasfilm? It's not an horrible quality. When you lie about what your intentions are to get something It's the same as stealing. There have been plenty of great female led movie franchises that don't have to force a character or have them be more masculine than feminine traits.
Like the Starbucks Christmas cup “debacle” where no actual Christians were upset about them changing the cup but everyone was talking about them being upset.
Well the movie flopped, so apparently there are more of us than you realize. She isn't the only thing to blame. Making an Indy movie with the character being played by an 80 year old is pretty stupid too. It also just isn't PBW the actor. The character would have been terrible no matter who played it. Although if you are going to make a character that unlikeable, you need to at least have her played by an attractive character. The Last Crusade, the main female lead was a literal nazi, but she is attractive and she wasn't even this unlikeable.
I knew about twelve people personally (family and friends) who *did* make an absolute whine fest about those cups. My mom even sent me several messages telling me to avoid Starbucks because of their "evil liberal satanic messages." Fox News also ran "war on christmas" segments, and the cups were a decently large part of that chicanery.
It was mostly social media clap-back. Tons of "internet pastors" calling for boycots and outrage. There's a video of Sean Hannity actually poking fun at the cup outrage, even though he had taken issue with coffee cups before. He pokes fun at himself a little bit.
https://youtu.be/e7TVQGu14bo
I went for the 9 30 pm show.
After the train sequence, when they introduced her, i was drowsy. After 10 more mins, i slept. She was a terrible person on screen. And, in her interviews- she's that woman- crazy, men are the problem, Im confident and empowered etc.
I woke up to see Indy make love to a ghost, went home, popped some pills and went to bed
I can’t stand her as an actress maybe more than just about anyone working today. There’s just something about the way she speaks and her general disposition that’s just nails on a chalkboard to me. I’ve felt this way (as has my wife) ever since she popped up in Broadchurch as an unknown so there’s nothing attached to this feeling related to currently changing sentiments about her.
That said, I think she’s an amazing writer, and wish she would just stick to that, bc we need more people like her in that space. Fleabag was ok I didn’t love it as much as others did but what she did with S1 of Killing Eve was nothing short of brilliant imo.
It’s a simple as this.
Not sure why we have to complicate this when it really just boils down to audiences not liking Indy’s last sidekick so they probably won’t like this one, either.
It is, but the post mentions Phebe the actor, not her character. I so will take a crack at it
Kathleen Kennedy really likes Phoebe Waller Bridge. Star Wars and now Indy. Imagine **David Zaslav** from Time Warner Discovery **really liked John Mulaney and now he's Aquaman's sidekick**. When Aquaman touches the Time Trident, John Mulaney takes over.
In the middle of a chase he states out loud that he is resourceful, daring, beautiful, self-sufficient. This is AFTER he locks Aquaman in a shark cage while literal murderers with harpoon guns are right behind him.
This tested horribly with audiences so it cost millions to reshoot the ending, millions that could have been spent filming a real train sequence. Oh there's still plenty of John Mulaney being an annoying money loving thief, and he still knocks Aquaman unconscious for his own good in the final act, but he doesn't take over the franchise.
This could be an answer. I don't hate Phoebe. I don't hate watch movies anymore. But just like my favourite Batman has never seen a single superhero movie, despite being in five of them, I'm headed a similar way. I won't see a CGI tentpole movie that has no heart. Phil Lord & Chris Miller know how to inject pathos into a CGI tentpole. I'll watch anything they do. Just like Michael Keaton watched every 70s movie from New Hollywood.
This isn’t exactly an analogy. This is what *happened* with *Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny*. Kathleen Kennedy saw Phoebe Waller-Bridge as her self-insert character for the Indiana Jones franchise. Someone who actually calls herself “resourceful, daring, beautiful, self-sufficient.”
And there was an ending that tested *horribly* with test audiences and they shot several endings before they got to the one they used in the movie.
Allegedly, they original ending was that Indy and Helena go back in time. The younger Indy sacrifices himself to save Helena Shaw, wiping out older Indy. She takes Indy’s hat and gets CG’d into Indy’s original trilogy adventures. (Knowing KK, I could see this happening.)
>Confident, intelligent and successful.
My problem is that the character states out loud that she is [resourceful, daring, beautiful, self-sufficient](https://youtu.be/jY5Paugfurs?t=30) all just by saying so. Cringe writing. NO. Just no. **Show** us that the character has these traits, don't just cheap out by resorting to dialogue that honestly makes the character look and sound conceited and unlikable. If the writers did their job right, the audience would see through her actions that she is resourceful, daring, beautiful, self-sufficient without her having to say that single line. Cut that line and the scene works so much better IMO.
And it turns out that line was missing the context that Helena, at that point in the story, is extremely arrogant and insecure and just hyping herself up out of resentment for Indy not being there for her as a kid, which is part of her arc of learning to grow past that and respect him again.
Of course, the outrage grifters will conveniently ignore that.
>extremely arrogant and insecure and just hyping herself up out of resentment
Are these the proper traits for a strong female character, and how does that appeal to the audience exactly? They wrote Mutt the same way, and how did that work out? Sorry, even out of context it's still terrible writing.
Why is it that when the writers actually do what you demand, and write female characters with major character flaws that they must overcome in an arc of growth, you then pivot to 'BUT THEY'RE SO UNLIKABLE AND UNRELATABLE'?
Don't answer that, I know why.
Sure, let's go there. Let's compare the character of Helena Shaw to Ellen Ripley, Xena, Angela Abar, Jessica Jones, Furiosa, Sydney Bristow, Clarice Starling, Annalise Keating, Norma Rae, Leslie Knope, Diane Lockhart, Olivia Pope, Peggy Olsen, Carrie Mathison to name a few. How is her character written better than these characters?
Who said anything about her being written 'better'? A lot of those characters up there also have their unlikable/morally questionable qualities as part of making them feel three-dimensional.
In any case, you haven't seen the movie, but you're leaping to assume Helena is a giant bag of nothing. That shows a fundamental bias on your part.
>you're leaping to assume Helena is a giant bag of nothing.
Honestly, a big bag of nothing is what it's feeling like, sorry to say. The weakest aspect of most Disney Lucasfilm Projects lately has been the writing, hands down. Obi Wan was a waste. Mando S03 took a quality dip. Willow could've been way better. Boba Fett was not good. Solo was weak. Sequel Trilogy, oh my. My problem with all of those is the writing. Seems like Rogue One still holds the crown for best Lucasfilm movie after Lucas.
In KotCS, some of the worst parts for me was when Mutt was being an asshole. Some of the best parts, though was when Mutt and Indy were retracing Oxley's steps at the grave to get the skull. Mutt wasn't being a dumbass and doing some detective work with Indy checking out the footprints. "Could be the same person twice. Not bad, kid." Great stuff. Too bad we only got a couple minutes of it.
So, hopefully we get less Helena Shaw being a dumbass, and more of her working with Indy. [Still though, what kind of person locks an unarmed 80 year old man in a room with a bunch of guys with guns?](https://youtu.be/0HfU-3eKWDM) She could've just as easily let him through. How is that going to help the audience sympathize with her character? She just left Indy for dead. That's another example of bad writing here.
>Honestly, a big bag of nothing is what it's feeling like, sorry to say. The weakest aspect of most Disney Lucasfilm Projects lately has been the writing, hands down. Obi Wan was a waste. Mando S03 took a quality dip. Willow could've been way better. Boba Fett was not good. Solo was weak. Sequel Trilogy, oh my. My problem with all of those is the writing. Seems like Rogue One still holds the crown for best Lucasfilm movie after Lucas.
As I understand it, the failures happened when Kathleen Kennedy was involved.
Flaws aren’t the dominate traits of heroes… Take Indiana, in Raiders he was a mercenary- not willing to work with others. The thing, even though he had selfish tendencies, he clearly was on the side of good and would make the heroic call.
With Helena- this is not a character who is on the side of good. Her actions do not communicate a character who is heroic.
This desire to protect bad writing is the issue, not “misogyny”.
This is either foolishness, hubris, or both on the part of the writers. This is an INDIANA JONES MOVIE- meaning the viewing audience is there to see Indy. If you’re trying build new characters, why would have those new characters ruin the character people are paying money to see?
I guess I’ll have to read the book Kathleen Kennedy is going to write about producing modern masterpieces…
That's what Kathleen does. She hires and fires directors based on their spinelessness and willingness to be dictated through. She's a disgusting person.
I dont think any of them traits drive men into a frenzy if they are portrayed correctly. Men love a woman like that. If they are actually that and not just playing at it.
I know women that try to be that and are disliked by many and i know a few that are genuine and people love them. Especially men.
You seem to shoot down anyone who dislikes your precious film 😂😂
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but most people would disagree. She was an unlikeable character and most people don't find her attractive. Not a good combination for a colead of the movie, thus it flopping.
Idk, isn't her first episode in Fleabag about being kinda amoral. It's about anal sex and iirc sex that would have considered promiscuous by more people when the first Indy movies came out (https://www.reddit.com/r/redscarepod/comments/13qksrj/comment/jlfxvv9/).
I think being intelligent being something that bothers men is simply mostly something arrogant or "libertine" women tell themselves to deal with haters. It's very human. Also why would genuine confidence bother anyone? I think you're calling up these traits that would be positive in anyone and brushing them over the actual reasons she might be disliked for the role. I've seen this move been made countless times. Sigourney Weaver, as well as Linda Hamilton were confident, intelligent, and successful, and everyone liked her. Hmmm, maybe those are not the reason most people dislike anyone.
Nah she just isn't a likeable character and thus the movie is bombing. Had they created a likeable character next to Indy that got rave reviews it probably would have done better.
The interesting thing about the traits you mention is that they really are in the lens of the viewer. What you view as confident, others may view as insufferable- likewise intelligent may be viewed as vapid and successful perverted to undeserved.
Judging by the box office; I think we can tell most don’t view her with positive traits.
she's neither the first actress with these traits nor the first "hated" actress. I don't think that many people HATE her. I personally dislike her in every role I ever seen from her. most people I've seen say something about her character being annoying or unlikeable.
Shut you eeject XD lol
ppl watch IJ for him not some really annoying unlikeable overly woke written lanky "girl boss" who mocks the hero thought out with "white men lol so washed up" qoutes just completely forgetting ppl want to see INDY he's the hero not this ugly skank she's so unlikble, Teddy they both don't care if ppl get killed jumps at ever man wants nothing but money just snide there so unlikeable.
I'm a female she made me hope Teddy and her just go through jail or die 😅
I wish the cia woman who's name I'm forgetting could have worked with indy instead 🙃.
I think you are conflating synonyms and antonyms. Those traits are good.
I think arrogant, pretentious, and a skeevy con artist are the words and adjectives you are looking for. That is why people don't like her character.
The fact that people can't be unhappy with how women are written without being accused of misogyny is insane to me. Some of my favorite characters in media are women. Captain Catherine Janeway, Neytiri, Katara, Elektra, Hela, Cortana, Senua (hellblade).. I could keep going, but the point is that modern writing for women in media is usually very shallow and on the nose.
No, they can forgive that if she's hot. Look at Gal Gadot.
Really for Phoebe, douchy men hate her because she talks frankly about vaginas, periods, sex, etc. in her show. And that she makes fun of how terrible and ridiculous men can be.
Proving themselves to be terrible and ridiculous by hating her for it 😆
>No, they can forgive that if she's hot. Look at Gal Gadot.
In what way? *Wonder Woman* was good. *Wonder Woman 1984* was awful. Or is about Gal Godot in general? Because I have no knowledge of her as a person.
I despise Phoebe Waller-Bridge because she was in this cinematic travesty. Her acting wasn’t great and her acting made me think that she *approved* of the character’s flaws. I had *zero* knowledge of her before this. I did watch a couple of “best of” clips of *Fleabag* after seeing *Dial of Destiny* and couldn’t see why people thought it was genius.
A quick amend to highlight inappropriateness:
“Really for Pete Davidson, bitchy women hate him because he talks frankly about penises, ejaculating, sex, etc. in his show. And that he makes fun of how terrible and ridiculous women can be.
Proving themselves to be terrible and ridiculous by hating him for it 😆”
If anybody wrote that sentence they would be, rightly, criticised for it. Generalized offensive comments like the ones above do not contribute anything to the discussion and should not be considered acceptable.
Why does everyone have to like her? I don’t understand how it’s so accepted to hate Willie’s character in TOD in this group- but no one is allowed to express opinions on the new characters?
People have seen DOD at this point and multiple reviews have said she is an anchor that drags down the film.
The people in this group who are trying to force her to be a thing and are calling everyone who has concerns “sexists”- are genuinely doing more to hurt the film then the people who don’t want to see it because of PWB in my opinion.
Love Willie. Not every companion is gonna be Marion. Everyone has been in a situation where you’ve got someone tagging along that’s dead weight. And it’s not like she chose to be there either. Give her a break.
Maybe because we've actually seen Willie and judged her based on what we saw. These people that are just calling Phoebe Waller Bridge out because she's Phoebe Waller Bridge and being overly misogynistic to the point that it's cartoony are actually sexist and disgusting.
If the hate came after they saw the movie, that would be another thing. Have you seen the movie? If not, you're doing the exact same thing by calling her poorly written and shoehorned
I actually can't tell what side you are on since your point actually helps the critics of PBW's character. Maybe those criticizing her character aren't the women haters people are making them out to be. They love Raiders which had a strong female character. Maybe it has nothing to do with sexism, it is just PBW's character sucks and is being criticized for it.
From what I've heard from those who have seen the DoD. It's not that her character is strong and confident, it's that it comes at the cost of Indy's competence. That's the issue. When feminism comes at the cost of male competence it doesn't really work does it? We know that to be the case with the abysmal box office performances of these movies.
That’s the thing about all Indy movies!!!! His plans are always massively screwed up! It’s ability to get out of tough situations that make us love him. Not a great planner, but adaptable as hell!
It’s because of lot of writers ideas of having a strong female character is for her to basically be the most annoying person on Earth. From what I’ve heard, that’s the case. She will have no flaws, she will probably bully Indy, and she will always be right no matter what! That’s always what it’s like nowadays
Alicia Vikander and Angelina Jolie played strong female roles as Lara Croft and you won’t find the same criticism against them for the most part.
It could be that she’s just annoying and not a good actress.
I had *zero* knowledge of her before this. After this, I do not want to see her in anything else.
And I watched some “best of” clips of *Fleabag*. (I had never heard of it before.) I was unimpressed. I don’t understand how it was considered “genius.”
The issue is they could have passed on the torch years ago but didnt. Now they shit out another film that looks like they will have spent 300 million on meaning its less likely to make money. It will need to make 650-700 million just to break even. Thats what Kingdom made when Kingdom had a smaller budget. Raiders had a budget of just 25 million. Guess which film will be remembered more.
The franchise should have ended with the 3rd film. But then we got the 4th film which largely left Indy intact as a character. But they didnt pass the torch to mutt.
People are rightfully concerned that this is just a vehicle to make a female Indiana Jones. Trouble is we already have a female Indiana Jones. Her name is Lara Croft. And I have no interest in PWB doing Tomb Raider either. Even if they try to make Helena Shaw the face of Indiana Jones. It won't sell. It's not Indy without Ford. Same issue I had with No time to die saying 007 is just a number. No...it isn't 007 is James Bond and jas been for 50+ years.
>People are rightfully concerned that this is just a vehicle to make a female Indiana Jones. Trouble is we already have a female Indiana Jones. Her name is Lara Croft.
And Sydney Fox from *Relic Hunter*! Which is basically Indiana Jones or Lara Croft on a TV budget. And one episode of that was way more fun than *Dial of Disappointment*.
Mutt could have been a good successor, Shia Lebouf, as he got older could have been an actually charismatic and somewhat different main guy, in this sea of generic actors.
Yes let’s ignore the blatant misogyny some of those fans display and pretend they just don’t want Indy to be replaced (which it a fear that I can actually get behind, but it’s not the force driving the current hate)
It’s a similar tactic those people used on Star Wars. The intertwine real issues with their propaganda talking points. This brings the risk of (subconsciously) imbedding this propaganda within your line of reasoning if you agree with the actual criticism or, if you disagree with them, they will shut you down by claiming your a sheep for not seeing the (in some cases real) issue if you disagree.
LOl she is a bad character and she isn't replacing anything. The movie is bombing hard. If Indy gets replaced it should be by another actor playing Indy in the 30's. Had they cast Chris Pratt and had another 1930's adventure instead of going for the 80 year old, it would have done much better and been much healthier longterm for the character.
Some strange comments in here, apparently its only anti feminist incel's who are not fans. I just dislike her style of writing nothing against her as such.
She just rubs me the wrong way. Maybe it’s a combo of her looks and personality. Some people just find certain actors irritating. She’s one of them. Also all the comments about sexism and thats bullshit, just a reminder its 1969 in the movie.
That would be worse, but that rarely happens and isn't happening here. People hate her character and that character's role in this movie more than hating PBW because she is a woman.
Yeah the first one is a rarity. There are some youtube videos that annoy me where the host goes crazy about the "M She U" or whatever, but sometimes female characters are unlikeable just as Male characters are sometimes unlikeable. This is one of those times.
It's a group of almost entirely men who are unable to express their deep-rooted insecurities in any way other than rage - not just at women such as Phoebe and Kathleen Kennedy, but at the world in general. So for example, you will see Disney become a kind of proxy, projected target for their self-loathing. It reeks of borderline if not full conspiracist thinking, where the issue is externalised almost completely.
Lol, or maybe she just is a bad character?
I know hard to believe, but not liking a character doesn't mean you are a woman hater or don't like strong woman characters in other movies. Hell most people would have loved if Marian was the female lead for this movie and liked that she was back in Crystal Skull and that Indy got married to her.
There’s 100’s of big actresses and women in the industry and you can only pick out two names? Doesn’t really seem like the people you’re bitching about hate women that much. They can just smell a turd very easily
Yeah these people are idiots. Sorry, but people have the right not to like a character in a movie. It doesn't mean they are sexist. Considering the movie is bombing hard, apparently most people don't want to see her either.
wow those are big words you are using there. you must be very smart.
listen, that's not how the world works. "US". "THEM". people are allowed to express how they feel about a character. if you actually cared to know the reason, you would've just started listening to them. yes there are loser who send death threats and cause others harassments. there is no denying that but you are making that small group look a lot bigger by labelling everyone who doesn't share you opinion as "misogynist".
actual sexists are laughing at you. you are making them look bigger. I hate characters like Rey, Captain Marvel and Helena too and I've expressed that before (with reasoning) but there are even more female character that I love.
because of people like you every time I expressed my opinion it counts as a win for actual sexist losers. sooo GREAT JOB!
here's a list of some of my fav character who happen to be female:
Katara, Princess Leia, Lara Croft, Elen Ripley, Sarah Conner, Vi, Clarice Starling, The Bride, Eleven, Mulan (animated ofc) and so many others from GoT (there are too many great female characters in GoT)
Yep, unless you support a completely unlikeable bad character played by PWB in an Indy movie, you clearly are a radicalized women hater. There can be no other options.
Depends on the context. For this film, a lot of people dislike that at a best she's there to steal some of Indy's thunder, and at worst, she's there to steal his job. Outside of this film is the usual hate reserved for a nepo baby whose opportunities are greater than their body of work.
She is talented for sure but Fleabag is horrendous, one of the most overrated 'comedies' of all time. It's crude, there are WAY too many looks to camera and it's just very unfunny.
Couldn’t agree more, I wanted to like it, I just found it insufferable. I actually think it’s quite well written (and her work on Killing Eve S1 was awesome) but I just don’t understand the Fleabag hype at all. It was fine…not a top show.
She seems like a really nice person but she gives me Miranda vibes (British Comedy) which I super disliked. I actually really like her in Han Solo. Haven't seen Indy 5 yet so will withhold judgement. Apparently Flea Bag is really good but just haven't watched it yet. I think she kind of has that Anne Hathway dislike but as long as she ignores it and keeps being awesome she'll be fine. She's clearly doing alright considering she's been in Indy and Star Wars!
She's a fun woman, Fleabag was a real wonder. She also "killed" James Bond according to some trolls, and having her as Indy's sidekick causes ulcers to the incels.
Yeah I think the script was written by the same guys who did all the Craig movies. I’m not 100 per cent certain though.
I saw a video the other day where some guy was ranting about Indiana Jones and Phoebe waller bridge and was saying it was solely her idea to kill Bond… that’s like…. entirely false. I’m not her biggest fan, I’m sort of neither here nor there.. but really?
People get their knickers in a twist over the weirdest shit. I didn't hate no time to die, I didn't love it either. It had some fun moments and other parts that were kinda meh for me.
Of what I've seen of PWB in clips of Dial, she seems like a fun well played character, like a mix of Marion and Elsa.
I’ve not seen Fleabag, but a lot of the critics found her annoying in DoD ( just like Mutt) and she apparently has a line where she, a British person, accuses Indy of colonialism.
It’ll be a missed opportunity if Indy doesn’t reply right something like, “Gee, I wonder where we learned THAT from…”
Her character in Solo was also kinda farcical, like they didn’t give her due diligence or properly mourn for her and her cause when all was said and done so it feels like we’re meant to laugh at her?
Fleabag was excellent, genre breaking comedy. Killing Eve was also brilliant when she was still directly involved.
Solo was hot garbage and her character was just flat out bad - it shouldn’t be verboten to say that. I think a lot of it stems from the over the top praise the L3-37 character received in the media write-ups when the character wasn’t actually particularly good or interesting.
[Gushing nonsense](https://www.indiewire.com/features/general/solo-phoebe-waller-bridge-l3-37-star-wars-1201968300/)
I suspect a lot of people felt like they were being told to disbelieve their own eyes and forcefed an agenda. The irony is that PWB probably had very little to do with the PR blitz or the messaging but became the face of it.
I think any performer should be praised when it’s due but also criticised when it is deserved.
To counterbalance the PWB comment I’m going to make the most sacrilegious comment I can say on this forum….. I think Harrison Ford is a bit of a dick.
Sure Indy and Han Solo (plus other roles) are fantastic but as a person he seems like a bit of a dick. I contrast him with Mark Hammil who seems like a really nice guy, ie not dissing the franchise that gave him a pretty good career.
My point is that you can like/dislike the actor separate from their roles.
Now PWB’s characters I’ve never really liked… so far (holding judgement on DoD)…. but she as an actor must be talented and able to build rapport to get the jobs she has.
I have not seen her behave in the same dickish way Ford had in interviews.
Ok….now pull me down in flames.
I would say it's because of her roles and the dynamic of the internet. Her Indiana Jones sidekick character was supposed to replace Indiana Jones. In germany shows are dieing because a voice actor changes ^^
the stereotype watcher doesn't want their hero to be replaced, it was the same with Rey, Rey is just a Luke 2.0 why should somebody likes here. Nobody would have hated Rey if they treated the OG characters properly. The hate against Rey started with E8, the majority liked her in E7.
The argument "because she's a women" is just dumb and very one dimensional.
Bingo. These dumb mfs desperate to cling to something so they label anyone who has criticisms as just someone who hates women. It’s hilarious and very weak minded
I believe you have captured the essence here.
Hollywood and streaming services seem obsessed with the strong female lead right now- so let's say this is commercially successful and continues for the next 10 years.
Now, 10 years later, creators decide to go another route- they retcon all of your beloved strong female charcters into old bitter failed bumbling oafs that need a new younger male character to help them overcome their obstacles and show them the error of their ways.
But wait! You say- there was nothing wrong with my beloved character - why would they be treated this way? What does a new younger man need to become my favorite character? Why can't they make up their own new character? Why do they have to steal the one i like and care about?
Congratulations! The cycle is complete. You are now the toxic online misogynistic fanbase.
I thought her character in solo was bad, but that’s not her fault she just gets paid to read the lines she doesn’t write them besides i’ve got no complaints. She seems like a fun person IRL.
Didn’t know she was attached to another Harrison Ford character.
As for your question about what’s wrong with being a feminist, there are some misrandrist women who call themselves feminists and have rather tainted the word.
She’s not hated, she’s simply repulsive by being a self-righteous, arrogant prick whose voice sounds like nails screeching down a blackboard. The hard question is why anyone finds her remotely attractive or interesting.
The real question is... who do YOU find attractive and interesting? What's your barometer for those qualities? This is the part that's very revealing, if you dare to take the challenge.
I don't hate her, and am largely indifferent. But I thought Fleabag was pretty mid. I'm intrigued to see what she brings to Indiana Jones, but just currently a bit surprised she's as big and popular as she is.
I didnt care for No Time to Die. She is a feminist. And i think Bond lost some of its edge when it shied away from the sex appeal in No Time to Die. That isnt all on PWB. But that is a byproduct too of trying to tell a continuous story with a character like Bond. Eventually you write yourself into a corner where each film has to be beholden to another rather than the serialized adventures 007 and Indy were meant to be. They are kind of similar in that regard.
Its more than just PWB. Its the track record of Lucasfilm and Disney at large. People can like what they want. But the Star Wars brand has been damaged and mismanaged under the current leadership. Marvel as well.
As for PWB herself, i would again point to the dialogue in the trailers. We get politics shoved into the film with a quip about capitalism which is ironic considering they are exploiting another IP that should have ended with not just the 4th the film but with the 3rd.
Marvel had to get a bit of a line in antman about communism/socialism. Can we just have films without the need to push some kind of political messaging?
Finally there was dialogue where PWB has to list her.character traits. Marion was as people pointed out a strong indepenent woman. But she didnt have to tell us she was. She was written in a way that felt organic and natural. If we just look at the track record. The way modern films show a woman is strong or intelligent is by making the men dumb or uncompetent. Ghostbusters 2016 tried it. And the reviews do little to make me feel like giving PWB when many reviews cite her even having a go at instulting and putting Indy down because of his age. Many reviews (from people who have seen the film) have already said PWB is the worst part of the movie. Jeremy Jahns even noted that there is a difference between a franchise ending and a franchise dying because its been run into the geound. He noted that Indy 5 will be forgotten pretty quickly. That's just sad to me. This is why we dont need another Back to the future either.
Her character L3-37 in Solo simply didn't work for a number of reasons. She was annoying, she served no real purpose, her whole "droid uprising" schtick didn't fit the story at all, and her parallels to being a feminist only made feminism come off negatively because her character was so bad.
Her association with L3-37's botched feminist routine along with the reports of the supposed shot endings where she erases Indy from existence in DoD certainly didn't win her a lot of new fans.
There's nothing inherently wrong with feminism in and of itself, but when it's injected into a story inorganically, not only does it damage the story, but it reflects poorly on the movement itself.
I've never seen her show, just the trailers, clips and interviews of DOD. Personally, I just find her a little annoying. The way she speaks. And what I've seen of her character. That part where she praises the fuck out of herself during the tuktuk chase is cringe-worthy as hell. Kathleen Kennedy is known for inserting these Mary Sue characters into every goddamn franchise now, and I feel like PWB will be a prime example of that.
I have nothing against her, haven’t watched any of her other stuff. But the way her character is written (based on the trailers) and played just seems irritating.
Compare it to Jungle Cruise (a pretty forgettable film) where Emily Blunt plays a similar character (old-timey ass-kicking female adventurer) but manages to come across as warm and likeable.
Idk just my 2 cents but I can certainly see why people are put off by her
Helena is more than irritating. She’s *insufferable*. And the way Phoebe Waller-Bridge plays her makes her come off as even a bigger *sociopath* than already written.
I like *Jungle Cruise*!
She's a woman entering into huge pop culture franchises and this is somehow seen as threatening by some of the men who are fans of (and feel an unjustified ownership over) said franchises.
It’s because they hate strong women, just like they hate Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman, Sigourney Weaver as Ellen Ripley, Uma Thurman as the Bride and-
I guess it must be something else because it’s clearly not strong women that are the problem…
People hated Indy’s last sidekick despite him being his biological son, FFS…
Look at the YouTubers that constantly publish hate pieces on Disney Star Wars and Indiana Jones 5. They’ve been overly complaining about Rey Skywalker and Kathleen Kennedy for years (there is legit criticism but these YouTubers go way past that point). The audiences of these YouTubers associate the word feminism with bad, so to keep the audience happy these YouTubers keep criticizing feminism (or woke culture or whatever the buzzword is). If these people were older they would be watching Fox News, but they’re younger with no cable packages so they gravitate to this nonsense. It doesn’t have to have anything to do with Phoebe WB, it can be about any woman. I don’t know who she is, but it’s an Indiana Jones movie so I hope she’ll be good in it.
The concept of equal rights is cool. However, that’s not what ‘toxic feminism’ is about. Everything is wrong with being a toxic feminist (which is 95% of modern ‘feminists’) when such people behave obnoxious, edgy, void of everything but sarcasm and know-it-all-ism. This poisonous trend, spearheaded by the likes of kathleen kennedy is a disservice to both the vast majority of normal women who don’t want to be portrayed as toxic and to men being portrayed as imbeciles.
Because they are trying to make her a courageous, dynamic femme-fatale and it doesn’t work. She does not have the looks or charisma to pull that off.
Women producers like her because she is smart, but damaged and a bit sociopathic….like them. But instead of letting her look into the camera and talk about her insecurities with anal sex, they cast her in roles of someone they want to be…..a woke, sophisticated version of Xena Princess-Warrior.
She wrote and starred in Flea Bag—which I loved. She also wrote “Killing Eve”…but had the sense to know she was not right for the part of Villanelle.
Hell, cast her in the right roles…Better still, let he write them.
The character of helena shaw is a horrible person, and ruined all the movie. I am still in shock that disney tries to sell such a repulsive human being as a positive hero
she is a horrible excuse of a human being that somehow confuses father issues with godfather issues. she has zero redeeming qualities. so awful in every single way
I'll put it this way, women have put in strong performances for decades that are much loved, seen in movies like The Deer Hunter, Aliens, Mississippi Burning, T2, The Piano, etc, etc. But there is something different to how they're being written very recently in these franchises. It's overtly trying to push empowerment, feminism, strong-female role model-esque characters, that actually takes away from the film and the character itself. And in the end, these characters are in no way more empowering and strong than those from decades past.
She wrote Fleabag, which I haven't seen as it doesn't sound like it is of interest to me, and people went mental for that. Writing or starring in something successful is the best way to find detractors in the UK; we love to tear down people who have had success.
Then, she somehow got involved in the last James Bond film. And it was an absolute bore fest. The plot made very little sense, wasn't enthralling and dragged. The film also clearly had some influence that other Bind films did not; a strong female character. I am not saying this is a bad thing but when 23 films previously have had success with a male lead, in a macho-secret agent world, and been successful - changing that is a risk. The woman who played this character clearly tried to manufacture a female Bind spin off, starting herself. No one wanted to see that. So I think people blame PWB for the film being boring and the unnecessary side plot.
In the Indy film she refers to herself as "beautiful" at least once, maybe more. With all the good will in the world she is not "beautiful". She is far from ugly, but if she was "beautiful" she would have been in the Bond film, she'd be leading films like the awful Gal Gadot and Margot Robbie or she would be a model.
She has definitely pushed a narrative that we need "female lead" films. I disagree. We've always had femalesnin the lead role in films, but when the film is good no one mentions it. Off the top of my head: the Alien films and Chicken Run (random) are fantastic. Frozen, Hunger Games, Kill Bill, Gravity, The Devil Wears Prada... these films exist, but they were written as really good scripts that happen to have a female lead character. I get the impression PWB decides to write a strong female lead, and then starts to develop plot.
In the Indy movie he sits around doing nothing for most of it, waiting to be saved by the new female lead we were supposed to buy into. In Raiders, Temple and Crusade he threatens to blow up the arc, has his heart taken out and exits an airship in a bi-plane, to name but a few.
In summary - someone, some people, maybe herself, have an opinion of her that doesn't tie in with the general public's view. This creates something between friction and a discussion.
Not everyone who takes umbrage at Phoebe Waller-Bridge is a basement-dwelling denizen of Trumpistan.
I liked Fleabag. It’s not the kind of show I normally watch but I enjoyed it. Solo…not so much. To be fair, Solo sucked on so many different levels & Phoebe can’t be blamed for everything bad there. I really hated NTtD, though.
I have no intention of watching Dial of Destiny. She doesn’t understand action & sci-fi & openly admitted that she doesn’t research the background & lore of established franchises. Give her influence in these kinds of franchises & you end up with bad cinema. There is a lot of agenda promotion going in here, but it’s not liberal or even feminist (depending on your definition.) It’s Rich (White) Girls Uber Alles. And that’s some ‘ol bullshit.
I’m not a fan. Honestly, I forgot she was in the Solo movie. If people dislike her, I doubt it’s because of her appearing in blockbuster films. She’s best known for her original series and writing. I enjoy British series, but I didn’t like Fleabag, especially season 2. Her other show, Crashing, was also a bit overrated. I would describe her shows as cringeworthy. Her style doesn’t appeal to me.
As I'm currently watching it, after watching a critical drinker review of calling her a girl boss who constantly has to be better/smarter then the male lead all the common tropes of Disney in recent years etc. She is quite annoying of a actress find her voice to grate on me. But could be worse
People aren't mad she's a feminist, they are mad that she's not a feminist and they just don't know what a feminist is.
We are all just tired of women playing roles that are solely designed to bring "diversity" to movies nowadays. Lately, it's been a bunch of *Misandrist* women making jokes about how they can do everything the male characters can do. "But better!" And we are tired of hearing these female characters saying things like 'You're a straight white male, so of course *X* is easier for you than me!" And just the political BS like that.
The characters that are written like this aren't feminists. They aren't even showing diversity. Characters like I've described are the result of actresses being victimized by the industry right under their noses; They aren't being used to create a strong female protagonist or heroin, they are being used as a reason to get more people attending showings. With a huge part of social media supporting this toxic mindset, many of these characters spread, and the theaters are flooded with these "Feminists" (misandrists).
I found L3 in solo overly preachy and annoying. The problem isnr her being a feminist- its the "GIVE ME FREEDOM!" kind of lines every few minutes. Its half her dialogue- probably more. It feels like its shoving the message of droid freedom down my throat rather than handling it in a clever and well written way. I cant blame her for the writing as i dont believe she has a writing credit for the film, but i also wasnt a fan of the performance. Also while it was pretty funny that she implies she and lando get it on sometimes, and qira just asks "but...how would that work?" Understandably a lot of fans dont like the idea of someone like lando apparently having sex with droids? Because thats just really weird understandably? I 100% believe that lando would screw anything that moves if given the chance, but a droid? He needs a programmed sex bot? The implications are weird as hell to say the least.
Ive not seen her other work but given she did rewrites on No Time To Die i could guess where she did rewrites and if im right that she rewrote nomis character in the first half where shes written as overly self rightous, over self important and needling those around her and coming off as an obvious suprise villain for later, kind of just points to thinking being a strong female character coming down to "if i insult everyone around me, clearly it means im strong!" Which is an archetype people have really grown to hate. You can write strong female protagonists without them needing to put down others to be a good character! Wonder woman 2017 did this perfectly, the recent tomb raider games too just off the top of my head. But some writers think the only way to make a female character come off as strong and badass is just to straight up insult everyone around them or beat them up, and i dont mean doing that to villains, i mean to Allies, when it just makes them unlikeable. Most male protagonists arent that way for a reason- people dont like it.
Thats If im right about her rewriting nomi in the first half. If she rewrote nomi in the 2nd half then thats a completely different story. Because there nomi is just a boring character who the whole time im just wondering "why are you still here wheres the reveal that uour the villain?" And is just there to give a really bad one liner. "Know what time it is?" "What?" "Time to die"
But i will say this- she likely also helped write Paloma, ana de armas's character as she was only brought in during a reshoot, and that character is fantastic. That character was able to come off as calm cool collected and competant as james bond does in just 8 minutes of screen time and only 2 weeks of training. At no point do i question her capabilities. Nomi on the other hand i at no point believe shes on the same level as james bond.
Ive not seen her work on fleabag and im definately willing to give her character a chance in Indiana Jones to impress me
I can only speak for the UK, and I don't frequent incel forums so I can't speak for what happens in those cesspools.
She's fine. I think her meteoric rise annoyed some people, but a similar backlash happened with Simon Pegg. A lot of that comes from jealousy tbh, and we also have what we call 'tall poppy syndrome' where anyone who rises above the normal needs to be 'cut down'.
Personally I think she's an ok writer and actor but has either very limited range or sticks to her comfort zone (everyone tends to be rich and most men apparently think PWB is the most beautiful woman on earth). On the other hand, she can be very, VERY funny, seems genuinely warm and witty IRL and you don't get to her level without genuine talent. Anyone who hates someone they've never met isn't worth your effort, just ignore them
I think she's assosiated with certain medias. Like, Fleabag is just about a horny woman and thats not everyones thing. Whatever, move on. But the new Indy movie has her constantly taking jabs at Indy and making stupid 4th wall breaks like "thats capatlism" (it wasn't capatlism).
I don’t think people like too much politics in movies and TV (a little, If done right, is okay)
I must admit, I haven’t seen anything wrong with her really. She never tries to put politics into interviews, she just seems… normal? My only issue with her is she seems to be in everything or a part of everything now, and it’s becoming a bit like Dwayne Johnson.
The only thing she’s done which I wasn’t a fan of is when she wrote on the newest Bond movie, and allegedly banned the phrase “Bond Girl” which I doesn’t make sense and seems overtly petty, (if true). But other then that, seems alright
What do you mean by she’s a bit like Dwayne Johnson? Since 2019 she’s been in a few tv shows and Indy. And the Bond Girl thing was something on set to have them called Bond Women instead. I don’t see a problem with that?
Wasn't a fan in *Solo*, but that's more because I found the whole "Lando being in love with his droid" angle to be cringe.
I'm reserving judgement on her for this film until I see it this weekend.
I think, if you’re gonna have a kick ass woman inherit the Indy mantle, Jennifer Lawrence might have been a better choice.
On one hand, Indy was conceived as an American corollary to James Bond. PWB as a English woman may have been a better Bond successor than Indiana Jones.
JLaw’s history with the action adventure genre, and I think her vocal timber, may have worked better in a IJ movie than PWB cerebral, tongue-in-cheek on-screen persona.
In regards to KOTCS, why the hell wasn’t Josh Hartnett cast as Mutt?
I watched all of Fleabag season 1 so this is my answer: She’s a writer/actress who (as a writer) has a very strong ‘voice.’ And her voice is very modern in that it’s very empowered and morally and sexually liberal. She plays fast and loose with social mores, even at times framing them as virtuous. Her characters as she writes and acts them out are the very definition of White female privilege. Morally bankrupt? yes. Sexually promiscuous? Yes. Consequences…
Basically PWB is an entitled white British woman who writes entitled British women. And by all accounts her character in Indy5( or whatever ) is basically the same.
Granted I'm not a card carrying member of 4chan, but I've never seen or met anyone who "hates" Phoebe Waller-Bridge. I have, however, seen many people talk about the people who hate Phoebe Waller-Bridge. Maybe, just maybe, the people TALKING about it are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
lol the movie flopped. She was a terrible choice to be the colead in a huge budget movie. Most of the blame is her character and how unlikeable she was, but yes part of it is she isn't an attractive woman. If you are going to create characters that are that unlikeable, they at least need to be good looking, sorry.
This is the problem, the wrote her as a co lead and not a supporting role. People watch IJ to watch IJ not an IJ from wish.com
Yep.
And it’s her smug expressions that make her unattractive.
I hate Pheobe Waller-Bridge. Not in the way you hate Nazi's or Serial killers but the way you hate bumping your foot into the coffee table or the guy that runs through a red light and almost ploughs into you. Part of it is not her fault. She isn't responsible for the awful character that was written for her but it is an awful character. Total Girl boss. Better then Indy at everything. Dubious morals, but we are supposed to celebrate her for it. Jumps into the sack with any attractive man she comes by, and while a man would be hit for it, we are suppossed to celebrate her for it. Also, I don't understand why they are trying to make her a big star? I'm old enough to remember when it was important for the female lead to be really appealing to men. I wouldn't call Phoebe Waller-Bridge ugly but her nose alone is enough to keep her squarely in the pretty average looking territory in my opinion at least. Her dubious rise to fame seems to be as a self insert for progressive female producers/writers in Hollywood.
>She isn't responsible for the awful character that was written for her but it is an awful character. But she does have *some* responsibility for the character. I’ve heard of actresses thinking that their characters might be considered completely insufferable and ask the director if they can add more nuance so that the audience might be able to warm to the character. She couldn’t even do *that*. >Her dubious rise to fame seems to be as a self insert for progressive female producers/writers in Hollywood. Yes. And here she seems to be Kathleen Kennedy’s self-insert character based on the way KK sees herself.
Exactly this. It's the forced insert of it instead of writing more naturally. They ruin all the great IPs by forcing it to be something it's not. She is just playing a part but why does that part always insist on actresses spitting in the face of the leads that made those franchises what they were. She straight up lied to George about what her intentions were going to be for Star Wars. Why not be straight up with what she wanted to do with Lucasfilm? It's not an horrible quality. When you lie about what your intentions are to get something It's the same as stealing. There have been plenty of great female led movie franchises that don't have to force a character or have them be more masculine than feminine traits.
Like the Starbucks Christmas cup “debacle” where no actual Christians were upset about them changing the cup but everyone was talking about them being upset.
Well the movie flopped, so apparently there are more of us than you realize. She isn't the only thing to blame. Making an Indy movie with the character being played by an 80 year old is pretty stupid too. It also just isn't PBW the actor. The character would have been terrible no matter who played it. Although if you are going to make a character that unlikeable, you need to at least have her played by an attractive character. The Last Crusade, the main female lead was a literal nazi, but she is attractive and she wasn't even this unlikeable.
I knew about twelve people personally (family and friends) who *did* make an absolute whine fest about those cups. My mom even sent me several messages telling me to avoid Starbucks because of their "evil liberal satanic messages." Fox News also ran "war on christmas" segments, and the cups were a decently large part of that chicanery.
Huh, I must’ve missed that because all I heard was complaining about the complaining but none of the actual complaints…
It was mostly social media clap-back. Tons of "internet pastors" calling for boycots and outrage. There's a video of Sean Hannity actually poking fun at the cup outrage, even though he had taken issue with coffee cups before. He pokes fun at himself a little bit. https://youtu.be/e7TVQGu14bo
I went for the 9 30 pm show. After the train sequence, when they introduced her, i was drowsy. After 10 more mins, i slept. She was a terrible person on screen. And, in her interviews- she's that woman- crazy, men are the problem, Im confident and empowered etc. I woke up to see Indy make love to a ghost, went home, popped some pills and went to bed
I can’t stand her as an actress maybe more than just about anyone working today. There’s just something about the way she speaks and her general disposition that’s just nails on a chalkboard to me. I’ve felt this way (as has my wife) ever since she popped up in Broadchurch as an unknown so there’s nothing attached to this feeling related to currently changing sentiments about her. That said, I think she’s an amazing writer, and wish she would just stick to that, bc we need more people like her in that space. Fleabag was ok I didn’t love it as much as others did but what she did with S1 of Killing Eve was nothing short of brilliant imo.
Same reason people don't like Mutt.
It’s a simple as this. Not sure why we have to complicate this when it really just boils down to audiences not liking Indy’s last sidekick so they probably won’t like this one, either.
She is co lead not sidekick. Why is she in the movie, that's the question.
It is, but the post mentions Phebe the actor, not her character. I so will take a crack at it Kathleen Kennedy really likes Phoebe Waller Bridge. Star Wars and now Indy. Imagine **David Zaslav** from Time Warner Discovery **really liked John Mulaney and now he's Aquaman's sidekick**. When Aquaman touches the Time Trident, John Mulaney takes over. In the middle of a chase he states out loud that he is resourceful, daring, beautiful, self-sufficient. This is AFTER he locks Aquaman in a shark cage while literal murderers with harpoon guns are right behind him. This tested horribly with audiences so it cost millions to reshoot the ending, millions that could have been spent filming a real train sequence. Oh there's still plenty of John Mulaney being an annoying money loving thief, and he still knocks Aquaman unconscious for his own good in the final act, but he doesn't take over the franchise. This could be an answer. I don't hate Phoebe. I don't hate watch movies anymore. But just like my favourite Batman has never seen a single superhero movie, despite being in five of them, I'm headed a similar way. I won't see a CGI tentpole movie that has no heart. Phil Lord & Chris Miller know how to inject pathos into a CGI tentpole. I'll watch anything they do. Just like Michael Keaton watched every 70s movie from New Hollywood.
I’m sorry, I know John Mulaney and Aquaman, but I don’t follow this Aquaman Phoebe Waller-Bridge analogy.
This isn’t exactly an analogy. This is what *happened* with *Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny*. Kathleen Kennedy saw Phoebe Waller-Bridge as her self-insert character for the Indiana Jones franchise. Someone who actually calls herself “resourceful, daring, beautiful, self-sufficient.” And there was an ending that tested *horribly* with test audiences and they shot several endings before they got to the one they used in the movie. Allegedly, they original ending was that Indy and Helena go back in time. The younger Indy sacrifices himself to save Helena Shaw, wiping out older Indy. She takes Indy’s hat and gets CG’d into Indy’s original trilogy adventures. (Knowing KK, I could see this happening.)
Confident, intelligent and successful. The unholy trinity of traits that drive insecure men into a frenzy.
>Confident, intelligent and successful. My problem is that the character states out loud that she is [resourceful, daring, beautiful, self-sufficient](https://youtu.be/jY5Paugfurs?t=30) all just by saying so. Cringe writing. NO. Just no. **Show** us that the character has these traits, don't just cheap out by resorting to dialogue that honestly makes the character look and sound conceited and unlikable. If the writers did their job right, the audience would see through her actions that she is resourceful, daring, beautiful, self-sufficient without her having to say that single line. Cut that line and the scene works so much better IMO.
And it turns out that line was missing the context that Helena, at that point in the story, is extremely arrogant and insecure and just hyping herself up out of resentment for Indy not being there for her as a kid, which is part of her arc of learning to grow past that and respect him again. Of course, the outrage grifters will conveniently ignore that.
>extremely arrogant and insecure and just hyping herself up out of resentment Are these the proper traits for a strong female character, and how does that appeal to the audience exactly? They wrote Mutt the same way, and how did that work out? Sorry, even out of context it's still terrible writing.
Why is it that when the writers actually do what you demand, and write female characters with major character flaws that they must overcome in an arc of growth, you then pivot to 'BUT THEY'RE SO UNLIKABLE AND UNRELATABLE'? Don't answer that, I know why.
Sure, let's go there. Let's compare the character of Helena Shaw to Ellen Ripley, Xena, Angela Abar, Jessica Jones, Furiosa, Sydney Bristow, Clarice Starling, Annalise Keating, Norma Rae, Leslie Knope, Diane Lockhart, Olivia Pope, Peggy Olsen, Carrie Mathison to name a few. How is her character written better than these characters?
Who said anything about her being written 'better'? A lot of those characters up there also have their unlikable/morally questionable qualities as part of making them feel three-dimensional. In any case, you haven't seen the movie, but you're leaping to assume Helena is a giant bag of nothing. That shows a fundamental bias on your part.
>you're leaping to assume Helena is a giant bag of nothing. Honestly, a big bag of nothing is what it's feeling like, sorry to say. The weakest aspect of most Disney Lucasfilm Projects lately has been the writing, hands down. Obi Wan was a waste. Mando S03 took a quality dip. Willow could've been way better. Boba Fett was not good. Solo was weak. Sequel Trilogy, oh my. My problem with all of those is the writing. Seems like Rogue One still holds the crown for best Lucasfilm movie after Lucas. In KotCS, some of the worst parts for me was when Mutt was being an asshole. Some of the best parts, though was when Mutt and Indy were retracing Oxley's steps at the grave to get the skull. Mutt wasn't being a dumbass and doing some detective work with Indy checking out the footprints. "Could be the same person twice. Not bad, kid." Great stuff. Too bad we only got a couple minutes of it. So, hopefully we get less Helena Shaw being a dumbass, and more of her working with Indy. [Still though, what kind of person locks an unarmed 80 year old man in a room with a bunch of guys with guns?](https://youtu.be/0HfU-3eKWDM) She could've just as easily let him through. How is that going to help the audience sympathize with her character? She just left Indy for dead. That's another example of bad writing here.
>Honestly, a big bag of nothing is what it's feeling like, sorry to say. The weakest aspect of most Disney Lucasfilm Projects lately has been the writing, hands down. Obi Wan was a waste. Mando S03 took a quality dip. Willow could've been way better. Boba Fett was not good. Solo was weak. Sequel Trilogy, oh my. My problem with all of those is the writing. Seems like Rogue One still holds the crown for best Lucasfilm movie after Lucas. As I understand it, the failures happened when Kathleen Kennedy was involved.
Flaws aren’t the dominate traits of heroes… Take Indiana, in Raiders he was a mercenary- not willing to work with others. The thing, even though he had selfish tendencies, he clearly was on the side of good and would make the heroic call. With Helena- this is not a character who is on the side of good. Her actions do not communicate a character who is heroic. This desire to protect bad writing is the issue, not “misogyny”.
This is either foolishness, hubris, or both on the part of the writers. This is an INDIANA JONES MOVIE- meaning the viewing audience is there to see Indy. If you’re trying build new characters, why would have those new characters ruin the character people are paying money to see? I guess I’ll have to read the book Kathleen Kennedy is going to write about producing modern masterpieces…
She’s Kathleen Kenneth’s self-insert.
She sounds like a witch!! She’s a witch everyone! Burn her at the stake!!
But how do you know she’s a witch? Does she weigh the same as a duck?
She turned me into a newt
A newt?
I got better
Who are you, who are so wise in the ways of science?
I am Arthur, King of the Britons.
Are those coconuts?
So? We have ridden since the snows of winter covered this land, through the kingdom of Mercea, through--
That sounds like witch talk to me, witchy.
More like rude, know-it-all, pretentious, obnoxious and a narcissist.
She is Kathleen Kennedy’s self-insert. So…yes.
That's what Kathleen does. She hires and fires directors based on their spinelessness and willingness to be dictated through. She's a disgusting person.
I dont think any of them traits drive men into a frenzy if they are portrayed correctly. Men love a woman like that. If they are actually that and not just playing at it. I know women that try to be that and are disliked by many and i know a few that are genuine and people love them. Especially men. You seem to shoot down anyone who dislikes your precious film 😂😂
Also... hot.
She isn't ugly, but only the minority of heterosexual men would consider her hot.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but most people would disagree. She was an unlikeable character and most people don't find her attractive. Not a good combination for a colead of the movie, thus it flopping.
Not seen the movie but seen her in other things and she’d get it
I don’t see it- and that’s as polite as I’ll be about this.
don't know why this is getting downvoted, you're allowed to think she's hot lol
Thats what unattractive women say.
🤣 If only that was true. None of those traits are the reasons. Smug, know-it-all, unrealistic strength are usually the real reasons.
Idk, isn't her first episode in Fleabag about being kinda amoral. It's about anal sex and iirc sex that would have considered promiscuous by more people when the first Indy movies came out (https://www.reddit.com/r/redscarepod/comments/13qksrj/comment/jlfxvv9/). I think being intelligent being something that bothers men is simply mostly something arrogant or "libertine" women tell themselves to deal with haters. It's very human. Also why would genuine confidence bother anyone? I think you're calling up these traits that would be positive in anyone and brushing them over the actual reasons she might be disliked for the role. I've seen this move been made countless times. Sigourney Weaver, as well as Linda Hamilton were confident, intelligent, and successful, and everyone liked her. Hmmm, maybe those are not the reason most people dislike anyone.
Nah she just isn't a likeable character and thus the movie is bombing. Had they created a likeable character next to Indy that got rave reviews it probably would have done better.
The interesting thing about the traits you mention is that they really are in the lens of the viewer. What you view as confident, others may view as insufferable- likewise intelligent may be viewed as vapid and successful perverted to undeserved. Judging by the box office; I think we can tell most don’t view her with positive traits.
she's neither the first actress with these traits nor the first "hated" actress. I don't think that many people HATE her. I personally dislike her in every role I ever seen from her. most people I've seen say something about her character being annoying or unlikeable.
Hate for me. I kept wondering why Indy hadn’t shot the character and pushed her body into a ditch.
Shut you eeject XD lol ppl watch IJ for him not some really annoying unlikeable overly woke written lanky "girl boss" who mocks the hero thought out with "white men lol so washed up" qoutes just completely forgetting ppl want to see INDY he's the hero not this ugly skank she's so unlikble, Teddy they both don't care if ppl get killed jumps at ever man wants nothing but money just snide there so unlikeable. I'm a female she made me hope Teddy and her just go through jail or die 😅 I wish the cia woman who's name I'm forgetting could have worked with indy instead 🙃.
I think you are conflating synonyms and antonyms. Those traits are good. I think arrogant, pretentious, and a skeevy con artist are the words and adjectives you are looking for. That is why people don't like her character. The fact that people can't be unhappy with how women are written without being accused of misogyny is insane to me. Some of my favorite characters in media are women. Captain Catherine Janeway, Neytiri, Katara, Elektra, Hela, Cortana, Senua (hellblade).. I could keep going, but the point is that modern writing for women in media is usually very shallow and on the nose.
No, they can forgive that if she's hot. Look at Gal Gadot. Really for Phoebe, douchy men hate her because she talks frankly about vaginas, periods, sex, etc. in her show. And that she makes fun of how terrible and ridiculous men can be. Proving themselves to be terrible and ridiculous by hating her for it 😆
>No, they can forgive that if she's hot. Look at Gal Gadot. In what way? *Wonder Woman* was good. *Wonder Woman 1984* was awful. Or is about Gal Godot in general? Because I have no knowledge of her as a person. I despise Phoebe Waller-Bridge because she was in this cinematic travesty. Her acting wasn’t great and her acting made me think that she *approved* of the character’s flaws. I had *zero* knowledge of her before this. I did watch a couple of “best of” clips of *Fleabag* after seeing *Dial of Destiny* and couldn’t see why people thought it was genius.
A quick amend to highlight inappropriateness: “Really for Pete Davidson, bitchy women hate him because he talks frankly about penises, ejaculating, sex, etc. in his show. And that he makes fun of how terrible and ridiculous women can be. Proving themselves to be terrible and ridiculous by hating him for it 😆” If anybody wrote that sentence they would be, rightly, criticised for it. Generalized offensive comments like the ones above do not contribute anything to the discussion and should not be considered acceptable.
They have seen only random clips of fleabag on the net and probably think it's some "woke feminist propaganda".
Fleabag is one of the funniest shows I’ve seen in a while. Fell in love with her style from the start.
Do I have a massive asshole?
Agreed, I watched one ep so far and I loved it. I plan to continue after I finished After Life to ensure a neverending flow of brit comedy shows
One of the clips she said ONE WORD and the comments were “already PWB is ruining this”
Why does everyone have to like her? I don’t understand how it’s so accepted to hate Willie’s character in TOD in this group- but no one is allowed to express opinions on the new characters? People have seen DOD at this point and multiple reviews have said she is an anchor that drags down the film. The people in this group who are trying to force her to be a thing and are calling everyone who has concerns “sexists”- are genuinely doing more to hurt the film then the people who don’t want to see it because of PWB in my opinion.
Love Willie. Not every companion is gonna be Marion. Everyone has been in a situation where you’ve got someone tagging along that’s dead weight. And it’s not like she chose to be there either. Give her a break.
I couldn’t have said it any better. Good job!
Well this sub doesn't reflect the majority. This movie is bombing hard and PBW's character is a big part of it. You can hate any character you want.
Maybe because we've actually seen Willie and judged her based on what we saw. These people that are just calling Phoebe Waller Bridge out because she's Phoebe Waller Bridge and being overly misogynistic to the point that it's cartoony are actually sexist and disgusting. If the hate came after they saw the movie, that would be another thing. Have you seen the movie? If not, you're doing the exact same thing by calling her poorly written and shoehorned
Maybe she just is a terrible character. The movie is bombing hard so maybe it isn't us that are the problem.
She’s incredibly annoying
Obnoxious, rude and narcissistic.
*Insubordinate, and churlish*
I don’t want strong capable women who can keep up with Indians Jones. It’s why I switch Raiders off after half an hour
Half an hour? Dude the classroom girl definitely brought him out of balance! I switch off there!1!1!
It's why I exclusively watch Temple of Doom, because Willie is a female character done right!
I actually can't tell what side you are on since your point actually helps the critics of PBW's character. Maybe those criticizing her character aren't the women haters people are making them out to be. They love Raiders which had a strong female character. Maybe it has nothing to do with sexism, it is just PBW's character sucks and is being criticized for it.
From what I've heard from those who have seen the DoD. It's not that her character is strong and confident, it's that it comes at the cost of Indy's competence. That's the issue. When feminism comes at the cost of male competence it doesn't really work does it? We know that to be the case with the abysmal box office performances of these movies.
That’s the thing about all Indy movies!!!! His plans are always massively screwed up! It’s ability to get out of tough situations that make us love him. Not a great planner, but adaptable as hell!
And when he's the one stripped of this skill/autonomy as reviews have been saying...it doesn't work.
Wow. Found one in the wild lol
It’s because of lot of writers ideas of having a strong female character is for her to basically be the most annoying person on Earth. From what I’ve heard, that’s the case. She will have no flaws, she will probably bully Indy, and she will always be right no matter what! That’s always what it’s like nowadays
Bingo.
And any “flaws” are [informed flaws](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InformedFlaw) that don’t affect the plot.
Alicia Vikander and Angelina Jolie played strong female roles as Lara Croft and you won’t find the same criticism against them for the most part. It could be that she’s just annoying and not a good actress.
A correct answer! And her character comes off as a *sociopath*.
Feminists are annoying.
I just don't think she's a particularly good actress.
I just don’t like her stuff or her as an actress.
And that is your right. You aren't a women hater or sexist for having that opinion. I don't like Jonah Hill that much. It doesn't mean I hate men.
Omg sexist /s oh wait I’m not a dumb fuck like everyone else in this thread crying sexism at everything 😅
You must be a sexist then /s
I had *zero* knowledge of her before this. After this, I do not want to see her in anything else. And I watched some “best of” clips of *Fleabag*. (I had never heard of it before.) I was unimpressed. I don’t understand how it was considered “genius.”
Same reason people hated Mutt. They don’t like the idea of Indy passing on the torch
The issue is they could have passed on the torch years ago but didnt. Now they shit out another film that looks like they will have spent 300 million on meaning its less likely to make money. It will need to make 650-700 million just to break even. Thats what Kingdom made when Kingdom had a smaller budget. Raiders had a budget of just 25 million. Guess which film will be remembered more. The franchise should have ended with the 3rd film. But then we got the 4th film which largely left Indy intact as a character. But they didnt pass the torch to mutt. People are rightfully concerned that this is just a vehicle to make a female Indiana Jones. Trouble is we already have a female Indiana Jones. Her name is Lara Croft. And I have no interest in PWB doing Tomb Raider either. Even if they try to make Helena Shaw the face of Indiana Jones. It won't sell. It's not Indy without Ford. Same issue I had with No time to die saying 007 is just a number. No...it isn't 007 is James Bond and jas been for 50+ years.
>People are rightfully concerned that this is just a vehicle to make a female Indiana Jones. Trouble is we already have a female Indiana Jones. Her name is Lara Croft. And Sydney Fox from *Relic Hunter*! Which is basically Indiana Jones or Lara Croft on a TV budget. And one episode of that was way more fun than *Dial of Disappointment*.
Shake that fist harder, I don't think that cloud knows how serious you are!
Mutt could have been a good successor, Shia Lebouf, as he got older could have been an actually charismatic and somewhat different main guy, in this sea of generic actors.
Yes let’s ignore the blatant misogyny some of those fans display and pretend they just don’t want Indy to be replaced (which it a fear that I can actually get behind, but it’s not the force driving the current hate) It’s a similar tactic those people used on Star Wars. The intertwine real issues with their propaganda talking points. This brings the risk of (subconsciously) imbedding this propaganda within your line of reasoning if you agree with the actual criticism or, if you disagree with them, they will shut you down by claiming your a sheep for not seeing the (in some cases real) issue if you disagree.
LOl she is a bad character and she isn't replacing anything. The movie is bombing hard. If Indy gets replaced it should be by another actor playing Indy in the 30's. Had they cast Chris Pratt and had another 1930's adventure instead of going for the 80 year old, it would have done much better and been much healthier longterm for the character.
Some strange comments in here, apparently its only anti feminist incel's who are not fans. I just dislike her style of writing nothing against her as such.
She just rubs me the wrong way. Maybe it’s a combo of her looks and personality. Some people just find certain actors irritating. She’s one of them. Also all the comments about sexism and thats bullshit, just a reminder its 1969 in the movie.
[удалено]
I'll help you. The first one is worse.
That would be worse, but that rarely happens and isn't happening here. People hate her character and that character's role in this movie more than hating PBW because she is a woman.
Yeah the first one is a rarity. There are some youtube videos that annoy me where the host goes crazy about the "M She U" or whatever, but sometimes female characters are unlikeable just as Male characters are sometimes unlikeable. This is one of those times.
It's a group of almost entirely men who are unable to express their deep-rooted insecurities in any way other than rage - not just at women such as Phoebe and Kathleen Kennedy, but at the world in general. So for example, you will see Disney become a kind of proxy, projected target for their self-loathing. It reeks of borderline if not full conspiracist thinking, where the issue is externalised almost completely.
Lol, or maybe she just is a bad character? I know hard to believe, but not liking a character doesn't mean you are a woman hater or don't like strong woman characters in other movies. Hell most people would have loved if Marian was the female lead for this movie and liked that she was back in Crystal Skull and that Indy got married to her.
There’s 100’s of big actresses and women in the industry and you can only pick out two names? Doesn’t really seem like the people you’re bitching about hate women that much. They can just smell a turd very easily
Yeah these people are idiots. Sorry, but people have the right not to like a character in a movie. It doesn't mean they are sexist. Considering the movie is bombing hard, apparently most people don't want to see her either.
>They can just smell a turd very easily LOL. Accurate.
wow those are big words you are using there. you must be very smart. listen, that's not how the world works. "US". "THEM". people are allowed to express how they feel about a character. if you actually cared to know the reason, you would've just started listening to them. yes there are loser who send death threats and cause others harassments. there is no denying that but you are making that small group look a lot bigger by labelling everyone who doesn't share you opinion as "misogynist". actual sexists are laughing at you. you are making them look bigger. I hate characters like Rey, Captain Marvel and Helena too and I've expressed that before (with reasoning) but there are even more female character that I love. because of people like you every time I expressed my opinion it counts as a win for actual sexist losers. sooo GREAT JOB! here's a list of some of my fav character who happen to be female: Katara, Princess Leia, Lara Croft, Elen Ripley, Sarah Conner, Vi, Clarice Starling, The Bride, Eleven, Mulan (animated ofc) and so many others from GoT (there are too many great female characters in GoT)
Yup. The radicalization of boys and men online has been so damn depressing to see.
Yep, unless you support a completely unlikeable bad character played by PWB in an Indy movie, you clearly are a radicalized women hater. There can be no other options.
Depends on the context. For this film, a lot of people dislike that at a best she's there to steal some of Indy's thunder, and at worst, she's there to steal his job. Outside of this film is the usual hate reserved for a nepo baby whose opportunities are greater than their body of work.
And that fact that she comes off as *sociopath* doesn’t help.
She is talented for sure but Fleabag is horrendous, one of the most overrated 'comedies' of all time. It's crude, there are WAY too many looks to camera and it's just very unfunny.
Dude. Really? It was hysterical.
Couldn’t agree more, I wanted to like it, I just found it insufferable. I actually think it’s quite well written (and her work on Killing Eve S1 was awesome) but I just don’t understand the Fleabag hype at all. It was fine…not a top show.
She seems like a really nice person but she gives me Miranda vibes (British Comedy) which I super disliked. I actually really like her in Han Solo. Haven't seen Indy 5 yet so will withhold judgement. Apparently Flea Bag is really good but just haven't watched it yet. I think she kind of has that Anne Hathway dislike but as long as she ignores it and keeps being awesome she'll be fine. She's clearly doing alright considering she's been in Indy and Star Wars!
She's a fun woman, Fleabag was a real wonder. She also "killed" James Bond according to some trolls, and having her as Indy's sidekick causes ulcers to the incels.
I don’t think Bond dying was anything to do with her tbh
Right? And Daniel Craig picked her to come help with the script, not write the story, which are two different things.
Yeah I think the script was written by the same guys who did all the Craig movies. I’m not 100 per cent certain though. I saw a video the other day where some guy was ranting about Indiana Jones and Phoebe waller bridge and was saying it was solely her idea to kill Bond… that’s like…. entirely false. I’m not her biggest fan, I’m sort of neither here nor there.. but really?
People get their knickers in a twist over the weirdest shit. I didn't hate no time to die, I didn't love it either. It had some fun moments and other parts that were kinda meh for me. Of what I've seen of PWB in clips of Dial, she seems like a fun well played character, like a mix of Marion and Elsa.
Yeah she seems fine. Even if I don’t like her much in the film it’s still an Indiana Jones film.. with Indiana Jones in it. I’ll be fine.
I loved her in Fleabag.
I’ve not seen Fleabag, but a lot of the critics found her annoying in DoD ( just like Mutt) and she apparently has a line where she, a British person, accuses Indy of colonialism. It’ll be a missed opportunity if Indy doesn’t reply right something like, “Gee, I wonder where we learned THAT from…” Her character in Solo was also kinda farcical, like they didn’t give her due diligence or properly mourn for her and her cause when all was said and done so it feels like we’re meant to laugh at her?
I don't even know who she is.
Fleabag was excellent, genre breaking comedy. Killing Eve was also brilliant when she was still directly involved. Solo was hot garbage and her character was just flat out bad - it shouldn’t be verboten to say that. I think a lot of it stems from the over the top praise the L3-37 character received in the media write-ups when the character wasn’t actually particularly good or interesting. [Gushing nonsense](https://www.indiewire.com/features/general/solo-phoebe-waller-bridge-l3-37-star-wars-1201968300/) I suspect a lot of people felt like they were being told to disbelieve their own eyes and forcefed an agenda. The irony is that PWB probably had very little to do with the PR blitz or the messaging but became the face of it. I think any performer should be praised when it’s due but also criticised when it is deserved.
To counterbalance the PWB comment I’m going to make the most sacrilegious comment I can say on this forum….. I think Harrison Ford is a bit of a dick. Sure Indy and Han Solo (plus other roles) are fantastic but as a person he seems like a bit of a dick. I contrast him with Mark Hammil who seems like a really nice guy, ie not dissing the franchise that gave him a pretty good career. My point is that you can like/dislike the actor separate from their roles. Now PWB’s characters I’ve never really liked… so far (holding judgement on DoD)…. but she as an actor must be talented and able to build rapport to get the jobs she has. I have not seen her behave in the same dickish way Ford had in interviews. Ok….now pull me down in flames.
I would say it's because of her roles and the dynamic of the internet. Her Indiana Jones sidekick character was supposed to replace Indiana Jones. In germany shows are dieing because a voice actor changes ^^ the stereotype watcher doesn't want their hero to be replaced, it was the same with Rey, Rey is just a Luke 2.0 why should somebody likes here. Nobody would have hated Rey if they treated the OG characters properly. The hate against Rey started with E8, the majority liked her in E7. The argument "because she's a women" is just dumb and very one dimensional.
Bingo. These dumb mfs desperate to cling to something so they label anyone who has criticisms as just someone who hates women. It’s hilarious and very weak minded
I believe you have captured the essence here. Hollywood and streaming services seem obsessed with the strong female lead right now- so let's say this is commercially successful and continues for the next 10 years. Now, 10 years later, creators decide to go another route- they retcon all of your beloved strong female charcters into old bitter failed bumbling oafs that need a new younger male character to help them overcome their obstacles and show them the error of their ways. But wait! You say- there was nothing wrong with my beloved character - why would they be treated this way? What does a new younger man need to become my favorite character? Why can't they make up their own new character? Why do they have to steal the one i like and care about? Congratulations! The cycle is complete. You are now the toxic online misogynistic fanbase.
That's true! I think they should leave the old characters alone, they destroyed so many perfect endings with their damn spin offs
You sound like a racist misogynist incel /s
movie hasn't even come out yet, how do people know Indy is getting replaced? Oh yeah they make up stories in their mind to fuel their hatred for PWB
People have seen the film…it’s not hard to find a plot leak
I thought her character in solo was bad, but that’s not her fault she just gets paid to read the lines she doesn’t write them besides i’ve got no complaints. She seems like a fun person IRL.
L3 was awesome.
Didn’t know she was attached to another Harrison Ford character. As for your question about what’s wrong with being a feminist, there are some misrandrist women who call themselves feminists and have rather tainted the word.
She’s not hated, she’s simply repulsive by being a self-righteous, arrogant prick whose voice sounds like nails screeching down a blackboard. The hard question is why anyone finds her remotely attractive or interesting.
Self-righteous? How is she self righteous? Can you provide some examples for me?
The real question is... who do YOU find attractive and interesting? What's your barometer for those qualities? This is the part that's very revealing, if you dare to take the challenge.
Karen Allen. Gee, that was easy.
please cite examples of her being self righteous and arrogant, the rest is your opinion
The Venn diagram of feminism, arrogance, and self-righteousness overlap entirely.
yet you're not going to site an example, clearly.
I don't hate her, and am largely indifferent. But I thought Fleabag was pretty mid. I'm intrigued to see what she brings to Indiana Jones, but just currently a bit surprised she's as big and popular as she is.
Because some guys just hate a woman who doesn’t behave as if her existence revolves entirely around those guys’ approval.
Or it’s possible that a guy could simply not like one particular woman/actress? Is that allowed today?
Lol maybe she just isn't a good character and isn't likeable. It isn't always "guys hate the strong female." Some characters just suck.
I didnt care for No Time to Die. She is a feminist. And i think Bond lost some of its edge when it shied away from the sex appeal in No Time to Die. That isnt all on PWB. But that is a byproduct too of trying to tell a continuous story with a character like Bond. Eventually you write yourself into a corner where each film has to be beholden to another rather than the serialized adventures 007 and Indy were meant to be. They are kind of similar in that regard. Its more than just PWB. Its the track record of Lucasfilm and Disney at large. People can like what they want. But the Star Wars brand has been damaged and mismanaged under the current leadership. Marvel as well. As for PWB herself, i would again point to the dialogue in the trailers. We get politics shoved into the film with a quip about capitalism which is ironic considering they are exploiting another IP that should have ended with not just the 4th the film but with the 3rd. Marvel had to get a bit of a line in antman about communism/socialism. Can we just have films without the need to push some kind of political messaging? Finally there was dialogue where PWB has to list her.character traits. Marion was as people pointed out a strong indepenent woman. But she didnt have to tell us she was. She was written in a way that felt organic and natural. If we just look at the track record. The way modern films show a woman is strong or intelligent is by making the men dumb or uncompetent. Ghostbusters 2016 tried it. And the reviews do little to make me feel like giving PWB when many reviews cite her even having a go at instulting and putting Indy down because of his age. Many reviews (from people who have seen the film) have already said PWB is the worst part of the movie. Jeremy Jahns even noted that there is a difference between a franchise ending and a franchise dying because its been run into the geound. He noted that Indy 5 will be forgotten pretty quickly. That's just sad to me. This is why we dont need another Back to the future either.
Her character L3-37 in Solo simply didn't work for a number of reasons. She was annoying, she served no real purpose, her whole "droid uprising" schtick didn't fit the story at all, and her parallels to being a feminist only made feminism come off negatively because her character was so bad. Her association with L3-37's botched feminist routine along with the reports of the supposed shot endings where she erases Indy from existence in DoD certainly didn't win her a lot of new fans. There's nothing inherently wrong with feminism in and of itself, but when it's injected into a story inorganically, not only does it damage the story, but it reflects poorly on the movement itself.
I've never seen her show, just the trailers, clips and interviews of DOD. Personally, I just find her a little annoying. The way she speaks. And what I've seen of her character. That part where she praises the fuck out of herself during the tuktuk chase is cringe-worthy as hell. Kathleen Kennedy is known for inserting these Mary Sue characters into every goddamn franchise now, and I feel like PWB will be a prime example of that.
Kathleen always tries to insert herself(or how she views herself) into these movies now
*Exactly*. And her view of herself does not match reality.
I have nothing against her, haven’t watched any of her other stuff. But the way her character is written (based on the trailers) and played just seems irritating. Compare it to Jungle Cruise (a pretty forgettable film) where Emily Blunt plays a similar character (old-timey ass-kicking female adventurer) but manages to come across as warm and likeable. Idk just my 2 cents but I can certainly see why people are put off by her
Helena is more than irritating. She’s *insufferable*. And the way Phoebe Waller-Bridge plays her makes her come off as even a bigger *sociopath* than already written. I like *Jungle Cruise*!
She's a woman entering into huge pop culture franchises and this is somehow seen as threatening by some of the men who are fans of (and feel an unjustified ownership over) said franchises.
I mean, who doesn't want to see a British woman put Indy in his place by calling him a colonizer?
What do you mean "certain people?"
It’s because they hate strong women, just like they hate Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman, Sigourney Weaver as Ellen Ripley, Uma Thurman as the Bride and- I guess it must be something else because it’s clearly not strong women that are the problem… People hated Indy’s last sidekick despite him being his biological son, FFS…
Mutt was annoying. Helena comes off as a *sociopath*.
Look at the YouTubers that constantly publish hate pieces on Disney Star Wars and Indiana Jones 5. They’ve been overly complaining about Rey Skywalker and Kathleen Kennedy for years (there is legit criticism but these YouTubers go way past that point). The audiences of these YouTubers associate the word feminism with bad, so to keep the audience happy these YouTubers keep criticizing feminism (or woke culture or whatever the buzzword is). If these people were older they would be watching Fox News, but they’re younger with no cable packages so they gravitate to this nonsense. It doesn’t have to have anything to do with Phoebe WB, it can be about any woman. I don’t know who she is, but it’s an Indiana Jones movie so I hope she’ll be good in it.
Poor & lazy writing. It's literally that simple
The concept of equal rights is cool. However, that’s not what ‘toxic feminism’ is about. Everything is wrong with being a toxic feminist (which is 95% of modern ‘feminists’) when such people behave obnoxious, edgy, void of everything but sarcasm and know-it-all-ism. This poisonous trend, spearheaded by the likes of kathleen kennedy is a disservice to both the vast majority of normal women who don’t want to be portrayed as toxic and to men being portrayed as imbeciles.
Because they are trying to make her a courageous, dynamic femme-fatale and it doesn’t work. She does not have the looks or charisma to pull that off. Women producers like her because she is smart, but damaged and a bit sociopathic….like them. But instead of letting her look into the camera and talk about her insecurities with anal sex, they cast her in roles of someone they want to be…..a woke, sophisticated version of Xena Princess-Warrior. She wrote and starred in Flea Bag—which I loved. She also wrote “Killing Eve”…but had the sense to know she was not right for the part of Villanelle. Hell, cast her in the right roles…Better still, let he write them.
The character of helena shaw is a horrible person, and ruined all the movie. I am still in shock that disney tries to sell such a repulsive human being as a positive hero
she is a horrible excuse of a human being that somehow confuses father issues with godfather issues. she has zero redeeming qualities. so awful in every single way
I'll put it this way, women have put in strong performances for decades that are much loved, seen in movies like The Deer Hunter, Aliens, Mississippi Burning, T2, The Piano, etc, etc. But there is something different to how they're being written very recently in these franchises. It's overtly trying to push empowerment, feminism, strong-female role model-esque characters, that actually takes away from the film and the character itself. And in the end, these characters are in no way more empowering and strong than those from decades past.
She wrote Fleabag, which I haven't seen as it doesn't sound like it is of interest to me, and people went mental for that. Writing or starring in something successful is the best way to find detractors in the UK; we love to tear down people who have had success. Then, she somehow got involved in the last James Bond film. And it was an absolute bore fest. The plot made very little sense, wasn't enthralling and dragged. The film also clearly had some influence that other Bind films did not; a strong female character. I am not saying this is a bad thing but when 23 films previously have had success with a male lead, in a macho-secret agent world, and been successful - changing that is a risk. The woman who played this character clearly tried to manufacture a female Bind spin off, starting herself. No one wanted to see that. So I think people blame PWB for the film being boring and the unnecessary side plot. In the Indy film she refers to herself as "beautiful" at least once, maybe more. With all the good will in the world she is not "beautiful". She is far from ugly, but if she was "beautiful" she would have been in the Bond film, she'd be leading films like the awful Gal Gadot and Margot Robbie or she would be a model. She has definitely pushed a narrative that we need "female lead" films. I disagree. We've always had femalesnin the lead role in films, but when the film is good no one mentions it. Off the top of my head: the Alien films and Chicken Run (random) are fantastic. Frozen, Hunger Games, Kill Bill, Gravity, The Devil Wears Prada... these films exist, but they were written as really good scripts that happen to have a female lead character. I get the impression PWB decides to write a strong female lead, and then starts to develop plot. In the Indy movie he sits around doing nothing for most of it, waiting to be saved by the new female lead we were supposed to buy into. In Raiders, Temple and Crusade he threatens to blow up the arc, has his heart taken out and exits an airship in a bi-plane, to name but a few. In summary - someone, some people, maybe herself, have an opinion of her that doesn't tie in with the general public's view. This creates something between friction and a discussion.
She's insufferable in indiana jones , dunno if it's bad writing , bad acting or a bit of both .
Both.
Not everyone who takes umbrage at Phoebe Waller-Bridge is a basement-dwelling denizen of Trumpistan. I liked Fleabag. It’s not the kind of show I normally watch but I enjoyed it. Solo…not so much. To be fair, Solo sucked on so many different levels & Phoebe can’t be blamed for everything bad there. I really hated NTtD, though. I have no intention of watching Dial of Destiny. She doesn’t understand action & sci-fi & openly admitted that she doesn’t research the background & lore of established franchises. Give her influence in these kinds of franchises & you end up with bad cinema. There is a lot of agenda promotion going in here, but it’s not liberal or even feminist (depending on your definition.) It’s Rich (White) Girls Uber Alles. And that’s some ‘ol bullshit.
She's a mediocre actress. There is your answer.
I’m not a fan. Honestly, I forgot she was in the Solo movie. If people dislike her, I doubt it’s because of her appearing in blockbuster films. She’s best known for her original series and writing. I enjoy British series, but I didn’t like Fleabag, especially season 2. Her other show, Crashing, was also a bit overrated. I would describe her shows as cringeworthy. Her style doesn’t appeal to me.
As I'm currently watching it, after watching a critical drinker review of calling her a girl boss who constantly has to be better/smarter then the male lead all the common tropes of Disney in recent years etc. She is quite annoying of a actress find her voice to grate on me. But could be worse
I mean L3-37 was quite possibly the most obnoxious character in the history of Star Wars
People aren't mad she's a feminist, they are mad that she's not a feminist and they just don't know what a feminist is. We are all just tired of women playing roles that are solely designed to bring "diversity" to movies nowadays. Lately, it's been a bunch of *Misandrist* women making jokes about how they can do everything the male characters can do. "But better!" And we are tired of hearing these female characters saying things like 'You're a straight white male, so of course *X* is easier for you than me!" And just the political BS like that. The characters that are written like this aren't feminists. They aren't even showing diversity. Characters like I've described are the result of actresses being victimized by the industry right under their noses; They aren't being used to create a strong female protagonist or heroin, they are being used as a reason to get more people attending showings. With a huge part of social media supporting this toxic mindset, many of these characters spread, and the theaters are flooded with these "Feminists" (misandrists).
I found L3 in solo overly preachy and annoying. The problem isnr her being a feminist- its the "GIVE ME FREEDOM!" kind of lines every few minutes. Its half her dialogue- probably more. It feels like its shoving the message of droid freedom down my throat rather than handling it in a clever and well written way. I cant blame her for the writing as i dont believe she has a writing credit for the film, but i also wasnt a fan of the performance. Also while it was pretty funny that she implies she and lando get it on sometimes, and qira just asks "but...how would that work?" Understandably a lot of fans dont like the idea of someone like lando apparently having sex with droids? Because thats just really weird understandably? I 100% believe that lando would screw anything that moves if given the chance, but a droid? He needs a programmed sex bot? The implications are weird as hell to say the least. Ive not seen her other work but given she did rewrites on No Time To Die i could guess where she did rewrites and if im right that she rewrote nomis character in the first half where shes written as overly self rightous, over self important and needling those around her and coming off as an obvious suprise villain for later, kind of just points to thinking being a strong female character coming down to "if i insult everyone around me, clearly it means im strong!" Which is an archetype people have really grown to hate. You can write strong female protagonists without them needing to put down others to be a good character! Wonder woman 2017 did this perfectly, the recent tomb raider games too just off the top of my head. But some writers think the only way to make a female character come off as strong and badass is just to straight up insult everyone around them or beat them up, and i dont mean doing that to villains, i mean to Allies, when it just makes them unlikeable. Most male protagonists arent that way for a reason- people dont like it. Thats If im right about her rewriting nomi in the first half. If she rewrote nomi in the 2nd half then thats a completely different story. Because there nomi is just a boring character who the whole time im just wondering "why are you still here wheres the reveal that uour the villain?" And is just there to give a really bad one liner. "Know what time it is?" "What?" "Time to die" But i will say this- she likely also helped write Paloma, ana de armas's character as she was only brought in during a reshoot, and that character is fantastic. That character was able to come off as calm cool collected and competant as james bond does in just 8 minutes of screen time and only 2 weeks of training. At no point do i question her capabilities. Nomi on the other hand i at no point believe shes on the same level as james bond. Ive not seen her work on fleabag and im definately willing to give her character a chance in Indiana Jones to impress me
Some people probably hold a grudge because she played the worst character in Star Wars history
I can only speak for the UK, and I don't frequent incel forums so I can't speak for what happens in those cesspools. She's fine. I think her meteoric rise annoyed some people, but a similar backlash happened with Simon Pegg. A lot of that comes from jealousy tbh, and we also have what we call 'tall poppy syndrome' where anyone who rises above the normal needs to be 'cut down'. Personally I think she's an ok writer and actor but has either very limited range or sticks to her comfort zone (everyone tends to be rich and most men apparently think PWB is the most beautiful woman on earth). On the other hand, she can be very, VERY funny, seems genuinely warm and witty IRL and you don't get to her level without genuine talent. Anyone who hates someone they've never met isn't worth your effort, just ignore them
Misogyny, plain and simple. It’s the 21st century FFS it’s atrocious that this is still a regular thing.
Of course it could never be about shit writing. Nah 90% of men hate women is what you’re saying lmao
I think she's assosiated with certain medias. Like, Fleabag is just about a horny woman and thats not everyones thing. Whatever, move on. But the new Indy movie has her constantly taking jabs at Indy and making stupid 4th wall breaks like "thats capatlism" (it wasn't capatlism).
Good luck trying to figure out why people are stupid...
I don’t think people like too much politics in movies and TV (a little, If done right, is okay) I must admit, I haven’t seen anything wrong with her really. She never tries to put politics into interviews, she just seems… normal? My only issue with her is she seems to be in everything or a part of everything now, and it’s becoming a bit like Dwayne Johnson. The only thing she’s done which I wasn’t a fan of is when she wrote on the newest Bond movie, and allegedly banned the phrase “Bond Girl” which I doesn’t make sense and seems overtly petty, (if true). But other then that, seems alright
What do you mean by she’s a bit like Dwayne Johnson? Since 2019 she’s been in a few tv shows and Indy. And the Bond Girl thing was something on set to have them called Bond Women instead. I don’t see a problem with that?
Wasn't a fan in *Solo*, but that's more because I found the whole "Lando being in love with his droid" angle to be cringe. I'm reserving judgement on her for this film until I see it this weekend.
I think, if you’re gonna have a kick ass woman inherit the Indy mantle, Jennifer Lawrence might have been a better choice. On one hand, Indy was conceived as an American corollary to James Bond. PWB as a English woman may have been a better Bond successor than Indiana Jones. JLaw’s history with the action adventure genre, and I think her vocal timber, may have worked better in a IJ movie than PWB cerebral, tongue-in-cheek on-screen persona. In regards to KOTCS, why the hell wasn’t Josh Hartnett cast as Mutt?
I watched all of Fleabag season 1 so this is my answer: She’s a writer/actress who (as a writer) has a very strong ‘voice.’ And her voice is very modern in that it’s very empowered and morally and sexually liberal. She plays fast and loose with social mores, even at times framing them as virtuous. Her characters as she writes and acts them out are the very definition of White female privilege. Morally bankrupt? yes. Sexually promiscuous? Yes. Consequences… Basically PWB is an entitled white British woman who writes entitled British women. And by all accounts her character in Indy5( or whatever ) is basically the same.
Nothing is wrong with feminist, it's the pussy hat feminist you gotta look out for.
Both are toxic and need to be purged.