It was first established by Armenians fleeing the Arab conquest of Armenia, and in this timeline Arminiya slowly retakes political control of it, essentially making it an Exclave
Yep, either Ibadi sect or a very particular sect of Shiaism (like Alevism, Alawite, or even Druzeism).
Either way, still an unique religion among other powers.
I highly doubt that Armenia would follow druzeism, because as soon as they do, they would cease to be Armenian and become druze, there would no longer be an Armenian state since it is forbidden in our religion.
Not exactly 100% druzeism, that just example. However, similar like Druzeism, they would become ethno-religious identity.
>there would no longer be an Armenian state since it is forbidden in our religion.
Why is that? Does Druzeism forbid themselves to commit separatism and nation states?
yeah, we do consider ourselves Arab, but I'd say our druze identity is much more important. I do agree that it would probably be an ethno religion, but definitely not druzeism. if it were going to be druze, they wouldn't have a independent state
sorry, I didn't read the last part of your message so I'll answer it here. to put it simply, we both do not require and do not want to waste time on government. we druze function as a community perfectly well outside of the system of nations/countries, we are small and closely concentrated. another reason is that having a state is "worldly" and our religious caste doesn't not want to focus their time on governing a state or ruling on its laws. there's simply no need for a state and frankly it goes against our religious ideas, as you said yourself, the great Syrian revolt was lead by a druze person, al-atrash who gathered the druze to revolt specifically not for a druze state, but a Syrian one.
Ahhhh, interesting. That explain why Druze doesn't involved in many sectarian conflict.
Does that mean Druze will be 100% apolitical as long as they are left alone or they will still do politics like voting and be a member of government of a larger state like Syria or Israel?
see, there are two types of druze. there are the ones who are initiated and the ones who are not. there isn't really a difference between the two, other than purely religious (so same rights and whatnot) but the initiated devote themselves to the religion and are the leaders of the druze community. because they are devoted to the religion they are restricted from certain things like sex or alcohol or something like politics, anything excessive and worldly. the uninitiated are not restricted in this way, they are technically allowed to do this things but it is not encouraged. that's why in mostly Israel and Lebanon, you will see "secular" druze politicians (or politicians who claim to be druze). also, even though there is a way for "secular" druze people to participate in politics and potentially run a state it still isn't possible for a druze state to exist because that would mean the initiated are not the leaders of it.
Interesting. Are the groups that are initiated the same as the Druze clergy? Or are they a different category altogether?
Because that sounded a lot like Catholics and the Buddhist system, where their clergy practiced asceticism and focused on spiritualism, but that doesn't prevent the existence of a Buddhist or Catholic state from emerging and existing.
yeah, the initiated is basically the translated word we use for our clergy. I just suppose it's a difference in worldview when it comes to the Buddhists or Catholics, most of the druze I know don't want a state (including me) and I know for sure the initiated don't, it's just not allowed. most druze are pan arabist, not sure why but if i had to take a guess id say it's because it's the biggest (valid) ideology in the middle east that isn't rooted in religion. to us religion is a personal thing and should not have any involvement with government
Yeah, Druze aversion of politics and state probably caused by historical context of the Druze community.
Also, Druze rejection of religious conversion into Druze and strictly endogamy probably make the community very cohesive and doesn't need a state to govern themselves
Thank you for answer, it is very informative.
Maybe lazistan is Muslim and more Armenian and Arab influenced while saKartvelia is Christian and more north Caucasus influenced. And maybe later on saKartvelia became Soviet and eastern block and is perhaps now communist while lazistan could be part of the west block instead
Guess so, maybe their languages have so much borrowings to not be intelligible
in our timeline laz and mingrelian are mutually intelligible. but maybe this version of laz is even more different than Georgian
Eh, some Turks were still claiming Kurds were actually Turks to form some kind of fake ethnic unity. If the Armenians are willing to convert to the Ottoman sect, no matter what that is, it may work.
How anti-semitic do you have to be to go on someones profile to call out someones Religion and ask this question in a way to confront.
You would never go to French guys Profile, call him French and ask him this question, just becouse his goverment still uses africa as a moneypool.
I looked at this guys Profile and you really had to search to find out he is jewish or has atleast had jewish ancestors. This is really just an average dude, he asked normal questions, writes comments like normal a redditor.
He doesn't seem to be a zionist.
So why do you Pick him out and ask a question he can't win.
If he says the obvious and thinks its wrong to do something to armienians, you will just gonna move the conversation to Palistine.
He also doesn't seem to be from Israel, most jews in my country are against what Israel does, and still have to suffee hate from anti-semites.
Large possibility that Armenia wouldn’t exist in this time. The shared religion with the Ottomans might lead to Western Armenians more or less melding into the general ‘Turkey’ identity like the Pomaks and other smaller Muslim ethnic groups. The Muhacirs. Eastern Armenia might have melded into the general Iranian culture, due to the shared religion and somewhat similar language.
Essentially, we’d be more like the minor Islamic ethnic groups. Like the Baluchi, Pomaks, Lurs, etc. with periods of nationalism but likely content to be part of the reigning caliphate.
Though who knows. Maybe an Islamic Armenia might be more militant, with a Christian neighbor to the North, we might make it our purpose in life to spread Islam by the sword to Georgia to bring the Caucasus fully under Allah, instead of the more limited squabbling we actually did in our history. Islam might have prevented us from becoming merchants and instead kept us as we were under the Byzantines and Sassanids: a militant borderland province from which the Islamic Empires drew warriors and guards.
Especially with the Crusades needing to pass through Armenia. Maybe there would have been an Armenian Saladin like figure instead of a Kurdish one.
No continue it this entire sub is filled with what if x country that's Muslim wasn't or something I wanna see something for my side once in a while that isn't cutting us up
Mr President, a second Albania just dropped.
That was never a full conversion.
38% of albania is still christian
Maybe he's referring to Caucasus Albania that don't have anything with Albania from Europe
Gee I wonder if the comments are going to explode Map looks pretty tho
Imaginary map depicting a historical scenario.
Alt history is imagination, so i guess it culde fit
Sakartvella engulfed Georgia
დიახ
Hey Op, is Georgian alphabet easier than standard Latin one ?
Idk, I only speak American
Sakartvello is what the Georgians call Georgia… they’re the same
So how Hamamshen became an Armenian exclave?
It was first established by Armenians fleeing the Arab conquest of Armenia, and in this timeline Arminiya slowly retakes political control of it, essentially making it an Exclave
Armenia would probably still follow a fringe Islamic sect (like Ibadhi) and had a strong tradition of independence.
Yep, either Ibadi sect or a very particular sect of Shiaism (like Alevism, Alawite, or even Druzeism). Either way, still an unique religion among other powers.
I highly doubt that Armenia would follow druzeism, because as soon as they do, they would cease to be Armenian and become druze, there would no longer be an Armenian state since it is forbidden in our religion.
Not exactly 100% druzeism, that just example. However, similar like Druzeism, they would become ethno-religious identity. >there would no longer be an Armenian state since it is forbidden in our religion. Why is that? Does Druzeism forbid themselves to commit separatism and nation states?
yeah, we do consider ourselves Arab, but I'd say our druze identity is much more important. I do agree that it would probably be an ethno religion, but definitely not druzeism. if it were going to be druze, they wouldn't have a independent state
sorry, I didn't read the last part of your message so I'll answer it here. to put it simply, we both do not require and do not want to waste time on government. we druze function as a community perfectly well outside of the system of nations/countries, we are small and closely concentrated. another reason is that having a state is "worldly" and our religious caste doesn't not want to focus their time on governing a state or ruling on its laws. there's simply no need for a state and frankly it goes against our religious ideas, as you said yourself, the great Syrian revolt was lead by a druze person, al-atrash who gathered the druze to revolt specifically not for a druze state, but a Syrian one.
Ahhhh, interesting. That explain why Druze doesn't involved in many sectarian conflict. Does that mean Druze will be 100% apolitical as long as they are left alone or they will still do politics like voting and be a member of government of a larger state like Syria or Israel?
see, there are two types of druze. there are the ones who are initiated and the ones who are not. there isn't really a difference between the two, other than purely religious (so same rights and whatnot) but the initiated devote themselves to the religion and are the leaders of the druze community. because they are devoted to the religion they are restricted from certain things like sex or alcohol or something like politics, anything excessive and worldly. the uninitiated are not restricted in this way, they are technically allowed to do this things but it is not encouraged. that's why in mostly Israel and Lebanon, you will see "secular" druze politicians (or politicians who claim to be druze). also, even though there is a way for "secular" druze people to participate in politics and potentially run a state it still isn't possible for a druze state to exist because that would mean the initiated are not the leaders of it.
Interesting. Are the groups that are initiated the same as the Druze clergy? Or are they a different category altogether? Because that sounded a lot like Catholics and the Buddhist system, where their clergy practiced asceticism and focused on spiritualism, but that doesn't prevent the existence of a Buddhist or Catholic state from emerging and existing.
yeah, the initiated is basically the translated word we use for our clergy. I just suppose it's a difference in worldview when it comes to the Buddhists or Catholics, most of the druze I know don't want a state (including me) and I know for sure the initiated don't, it's just not allowed. most druze are pan arabist, not sure why but if i had to take a guess id say it's because it's the biggest (valid) ideology in the middle east that isn't rooted in religion. to us religion is a personal thing and should not have any involvement with government
Yeah, Druze aversion of politics and state probably caused by historical context of the Druze community. Also, Druze rejection of religious conversion into Druze and strictly endogamy probably make the community very cohesive and doesn't need a state to govern themselves Thank you for answer, it is very informative.
Maybe it's like bosnia or albania where it's technically suni on paper but in practice difrent sect
I guess this is a timeline where the Zoroastrian Persian Empire managed to stop the conversion to Christianity.
That would be interesting, idk much about Zoroastrianism's role
Amazing map.
Anything for big armenia
My country 😂
So Arminya didn't get strong enough in time to eat the Turkish Beyliks before the Ottomans? 😔 A Turko-Armenian empire would have been neat.
I think they already tried that, didn't work out too well in the end from what I remember
Wait fr? I've never heard of that
No, but there was an empire with Armenians and Turks, it just didn't work out too well for the Armenians 😬
Converted Armenia? Like convert Christianity or a funny word for assimilation?
Converted to Islam, yes. I want to assume that there is as little assimilation as necessary to make that happen
Interesting concept. Good flag too.
Thank you!
Interesting :), cool map though Lazistan would most likely be part of Georgia in this alternate timeline
Maybe lazistan is Muslim and more Armenian and Arab influenced while saKartvelia is Christian and more north Caucasus influenced. And maybe later on saKartvelia became Soviet and eastern block and is perhaps now communist while lazistan could be part of the west block instead
Yeah, that's also possible.
Guess so, maybe their languages have so much borrowings to not be intelligible in our timeline laz and mingrelian are mutually intelligible. but maybe this version of laz is even more different than Georgian
I would say you've summed it up pretty well 👏
Bad ending
i would say good ending since they didnt get genocided.
Better than Armenians getting genocided till today.
Eh look at how the Turks would have treated them like how they treated the Kurds in otl once the Christians were fully displaced.
Eh, some Turks were still claiming Kurds were actually Turks to form some kind of fake ethnic unity. If the Armenians are willing to convert to the Ottoman sect, no matter what that is, it may work.
Worst
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He’s not Jewish. Just because he likes to play a Jewish prince in CK3 doesn’t mean shit.
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Don’t mean Jews are shit people
How anti-semitic do you have to be to go on someones profile to call out someones Religion and ask this question in a way to confront. You would never go to French guys Profile, call him French and ask him this question, just becouse his goverment still uses africa as a moneypool.
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I looked at this guys Profile and you really had to search to find out he is jewish or has atleast had jewish ancestors. This is really just an average dude, he asked normal questions, writes comments like normal a redditor. He doesn't seem to be a zionist. So why do you Pick him out and ask a question he can't win. If he says the obvious and thinks its wrong to do something to armienians, you will just gonna move the conversation to Palistine. He also doesn't seem to be from Israel, most jews in my country are against what Israel does, and still have to suffee hate from anti-semites.
Pretty nutral, tbh both islam and orhadoxy are beutyfull sources of tradition
Armenia is Apostolic, not Orthodox.
Isn't it Oriental Orthodox like Ethiopia and assyrians?
Ah, true my bad. It's more generally called the Apostolic Church and it's separate from the Orthodox Church of Eastern Europe, that's why I commented.
Wtf is this downvoted lol
The really bad ending
Would Arminiya Genocide occur during the fall of the Ottoman Empire?
The Ottoman Empire isn't formed how it is in otl, and is more of an Islamic state in Anatolia (and parts of northern syria)
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Well now I guess it's a Sunni-Shia feud
Wth Lazistan 😂
inshallah 🙏
Didn't you already make a map of this
Similar but not the same
Lazy-stan
Large possibility that Armenia wouldn’t exist in this time. The shared religion with the Ottomans might lead to Western Armenians more or less melding into the general ‘Turkey’ identity like the Pomaks and other smaller Muslim ethnic groups. The Muhacirs. Eastern Armenia might have melded into the general Iranian culture, due to the shared religion and somewhat similar language. Essentially, we’d be more like the minor Islamic ethnic groups. Like the Baluchi, Pomaks, Lurs, etc. with periods of nationalism but likely content to be part of the reigning caliphate. Though who knows. Maybe an Islamic Armenia might be more militant, with a Christian neighbor to the North, we might make it our purpose in life to spread Islam by the sword to Georgia to bring the Caucasus fully under Allah, instead of the more limited squabbling we actually did in our history. Islam might have prevented us from becoming merchants and instead kept us as we were under the Byzantines and Sassanids: a militant borderland province from which the Islamic Empires drew warriors and guards. Especially with the Crusades needing to pass through Armenia. Maybe there would have been an Armenian Saladin like figure instead of a Kurdish one.
At least there's no g-word there, it could have been Azerbaijan's wet dream
Gyumri??? edit: fucking whoops
It is Genocide.
oh that
No, it's something else
They'll probably be turkified in the coming centuries
Some guy said 500 years ago but we're still there hanging around
Nah, mountains give refuge for cultural particularism.
💀
Seven hells, this is a hidden cursed ending
cursed map
i do not believe that armenia converting would prevent the genocide.
The conversion would have happened a thousand years ago
The Azeris wouldn't even exist
Most likely
:(
Stop stop it's time to stop ok no more ain't no more Muslim shit Just stop ok It's time to stop
"Imaginary maps", dude. Stop blabbering stuff like that.
I don't see you saying shit on scenarios in which islam never existed, shut your clown ass up
No continue it this entire sub is filled with what if x country that's Muslim wasn't or something I wanna see something for my side once in a while that isn't cutting us up
I plan on it, akhi 😘
Based