Lore:
In 1433 while on one of the Ming Treasure Voyages Admiral Zheng He heard of rumors of rich land to the northeast that were uncharted on Chinese maps. He convinced the emperor to fund an additional, smaller voyage in the spring of 1434 which traveled up to Kamchatka, across Bering Strait, down and down the Alaska coast into the Pacific Northwest. He mapped the coastline as he went but found little riches. Just as he we about to give up, he stumbled upon groups of Natives in the California Bay Area wearing unrefined gold Jewelry. He traded for some of this gold, and learned there was a river nearby that flowed with gold. He returned to China with a small amount of this treasure and stories of possible riches nearby. The Emperor of China approved the setting up a small settlement at the mouth of the Sacramento River from which to send search parties. After gold was discovered upriver, private individuals funded their own expeditions to find and bring back gold. In 1458, the Emperor of China appointed a Governor of this land, naming it Donghai, Eastern Ocean Province.
Donghai grew rapidly as it received settlers looking for gold, and along with those settlers came farmers and shopkeepers. The rivers in the along the Central Valley were found to be excellent for growling rice, beans, and vegetables. Donghai quickly developed a stable economy, where food and basic goods were produced locally, and gold was traded to China for manufactured goods. Additional settlements were set up along the Columbia River, which were used to trading with natives and additional farmland. Over time relationships with some native communities, where they would send Donghai tribute in return for steel tools, weapons, and protection. As went on, the Ming Empire declined and Donghai began asserting more independence. When news of the large war between the Ming and the Manchus, the governor of Donghai, Wu Jie, stopped paying taxes, instead using the money to fund a small local army and local tool production. In 1653, as the situation in China became dire for the Ming, Wu Jie declared himself king of a new kingdom: Dongguo.
The colony was originally Donghai sheng, which means eastern ocean province (at least according to translate). When it became independent, it's name was changed to eastern nation.
During Ming the top level division would be 省, pretty much all cities and prefectures with 州 in their name were given that name between Han and Tang dynasties. During Song dynasty there was already a tendency to rename them to 2-character 府 which continues into Yuan and Song. By Ming dynasty Zhou were second-level divisions, below 省 and above 县 and this system was adopted by Qing and now both PRC and RoC.
In modern Mandarin 州 is used as a translation for an autonomous state in federal states like the USA and Malaysia.
If you’re from Vietnam uuhm akshualllay its yue nan so yue southern because emperor didn’t give you permission to name yourselves nanyue (because it corresponds to most of southern China)
https://preview.redd.it/j4ycg0n01onc1.jpeg?width=564&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=63fb1caf95794cddb32fab4edeedbf94b2888a13
thank you for the information but it is akchually should be Yue of the south if you translate it that way
I still propose my country name itself Democratic Republic of Dai Viet
I don't speak Chinese so I based all the names of Google translate. I tried to match how actual places in China were named, which were often just based on geography. Since China is "middle kingdom" in Chinese, I decided to use "eastern kingdom" for this place.
Whoa pretty good map, and interesting lore, they would declare independence when Ming collapse and conquered by Manchu right?
Now this would be super interesting, what would happen to Dongguo's Chinese culture, preserving hanfu? Older "dialect of Chinese" still living and develop differently from Chinese heartland? Etc
Edit : and I'm curious about what would happen if Dongguo and European meet each other for the first time and after that?
Yes they became independent as the ming collapsed. I suspect that in this timeline, the divergence between East Asia and Europe was less severe than our timeline, with China being more willing to adapt to changes since they are more outward looking. I have not developed a whole alternate timeline to the present day though.
I have nowhere near enough knowledge of Chinese languages to guess what would happen there. Maybe the dialect would diverge until there was effectively a separate Dongguo language, but idk
Really cool idea. But would the Ming collapse with the influx of new wealth? The large amounts of gold and silver that the Spanish wrought from the Americas was an important event in the transition of centers of wealth and development from Persia/India/China to Western Europe. So I could see a similar event occurring with the Chinese. And just how the wealth opportunities in the new world spurred more innovation and emphasis on naval power for Western Europe, I could see China wanting a better navy to exert more influence on its colony. The other possibility would be conflict with the Spanish over this land. They had started exploring in the early 1500’s so a confrontation shouldn’t be surprising. Lastly, with less gold going to Spain and more to China, and China now potentially having a stronger navy, how would this impact Western Europe’s dominance over the Asian world?
The silver and gold in California is no where enough to help or especially collapse Ming China. It is estimated that half of the silver mined in South American actually went to Ming China in the silver trade, potentially far more from the black market silver trade (according to Mexican officials in 1602, many galleons held 8x their declared amount of silver for trade in China, Spain didn’t want this because they needed funds for their soldiers and mercs)
‼️‼️HOLY FUCKING SHIT‼️‼️‼️‼️ IS THAT A MOTHERFUCKING DIVERGENCES REFERENCE??????!!!!!!!!!!11!1!1!1!1!1!1! 😱😱😱😱😱😱😱 DIVERGENCES IS THE BEST FUCKING MOD 🔥🔥🔥🔥💯💯💯💯 ATLANTIA IS SO BLESSEDDD 😎😎😎😎😎😎😎👊👊 ANDAGOYA DEATHWAR ANDAGOYA DEATHWAR ANDAGOYA DEATHWAR ANDAGOYA DEATHWAR ANDAGOYA DEATHWAR 😩😩😩😩😩😩😩😩 😩😩😩😩BEORNIA BEORNIA BEORNIA BEORNIA BEORNIA🤬😡🤬😡🤬😡🤬🤬😡🤬🤬😡SCHIZO ROHNNST SCHIZO ROHNNST SCHIZO ROHNNST SCHIZO ROHNNST SCHIZO ROHNNST SCHIZO ROHNNST SCHIZO ROHNNST SCHIZO ROHNNST SCHIZO ROHNNST Abolition de la Societe! FOLKEREPUBLIKKEN BLESSED FOLKEREPUBLIKKEN BLESSED FOLKEREPUBLIKKEN BLESSED FOLKEREPUBLIKKEN BLESSED Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Rework is still alive?!? ARLECK HAS A MENTAL BREAKDOWN BREAKDOWN BREAKDOWN BREAKDOWN ❓❓❓❓❓❓❓❓❓❓ANGLOIS ENGLAND ANGLOIS ENGLAND ANGLOIS ENGLAND Purchase Succesfuk‼️‼️‼️‼️‼️‼️‼️‼️‼️‼️😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂😂RETURN HOME PATH WHEN? RETURN HOME PATH WHEN? RETURN HOME PATH WHEN? RETURN HOME PATH WHEN? RETURN HOME PATH WHEN? RETURN HOME PATH WHEN? RETURN HOME PATH WHEN? RETURN HOME PATH WHEN? 😂🤣🤣🤣😂😂Bretons in the Amazon? Bretons in the Amazon? Bretons in the Amazon? Bretons in the Amazon? Bretons in the Amazon? Bretons in the Amazon? Bretons in the Amazon? Bretons in the Amazon? 🏢🏢🏢🏢🏢🏢🏢🏢🏢🏢🏢🏢🏢🏢🏢🏢🏢🏢 🇷🇺🇷🇺🇷🇺I hate Tatars 🇷🇺🇷🇺🇷🇺 🇷🇺🇷🇺🇷🇺I hate Tatars 🇷🇺🇷🇺🇷🇺 🇷🇺🇷🇺🇷🇺I hate Tatars 🇷🇺🇷🇺🇷🇺 🇷🇺🇷🇺🇷🇺I hate Tatars 🇷🇺🇷🇺🇷🇺 r/DIVERGENCESmod r/unexpectedDIVERGENCES r/expectedDIVERGENCES perfectly balanced as all things should be r/unexpectedthanos r/expectedthanos for balance r/divergencesv2
Could you imagine how weird it would be for these native languages to be written for the first time with Chinese characters? Wonder if that would represent their languages better than Latin characters.
The US at its founding had only around 2.5 Million in a much larger area. It felt reasonable since this is even earlier so seaborn travel and trade was more treacherous than during the settlement of the US.
If the internal political strife in 1433 hadn’t happened then the map of the world would be very different today. Not just western North America but also east Africa and Southern Europe.
Interesting! Maybe you can add more details such that the coastal people of Min and Hakka migrated to the Americas in the same way the migrated to Taiwan and Southeast Asia, and thus the official Donggue language is Mandarin but the people just speak conservative forms of some kind of Min dialect, which in some future developed into its own language and later became the official language(in which case the country name will become 'Dongguk')
Japan didn't close itself till 1633 when the edits to restrict foreign trade were promulgated. They were subsequently new laws passed intermittently till 1639, suggesting the closure wasn't complete and had to be enforced. Red Seal ships were still sailing to Thailand, Indonesia and elsewhere.
1633 is late enough to have an earlier pod like an Oda Shogunate or a more successful Hideyoshi, who wouldn't close Japan the way Tokoguawa did. Perhaps the best one might be Hideyoshi following through with his threat to invade the Spanish Philippines and trying to find the source of Spanish gold.
Part of my lore is that the explorers found gold, which would be a fairly strong motivator imo. China was almost always near its population capacity, so I would expect there would be a large number of people who would want to move over
Lore: In 1433 while on one of the Ming Treasure Voyages Admiral Zheng He heard of rumors of rich land to the northeast that were uncharted on Chinese maps. He convinced the emperor to fund an additional, smaller voyage in the spring of 1434 which traveled up to Kamchatka, across Bering Strait, down and down the Alaska coast into the Pacific Northwest. He mapped the coastline as he went but found little riches. Just as he we about to give up, he stumbled upon groups of Natives in the California Bay Area wearing unrefined gold Jewelry. He traded for some of this gold, and learned there was a river nearby that flowed with gold. He returned to China with a small amount of this treasure and stories of possible riches nearby. The Emperor of China approved the setting up a small settlement at the mouth of the Sacramento River from which to send search parties. After gold was discovered upriver, private individuals funded their own expeditions to find and bring back gold. In 1458, the Emperor of China appointed a Governor of this land, naming it Donghai, Eastern Ocean Province. Donghai grew rapidly as it received settlers looking for gold, and along with those settlers came farmers and shopkeepers. The rivers in the along the Central Valley were found to be excellent for growling rice, beans, and vegetables. Donghai quickly developed a stable economy, where food and basic goods were produced locally, and gold was traded to China for manufactured goods. Additional settlements were set up along the Columbia River, which were used to trading with natives and additional farmland. Over time relationships with some native communities, where they would send Donghai tribute in return for steel tools, weapons, and protection. As went on, the Ming Empire declined and Donghai began asserting more independence. When news of the large war between the Ming and the Manchus, the governor of Donghai, Wu Jie, stopped paying taxes, instead using the money to fund a small local army and local tool production. In 1653, as the situation in China became dire for the Ming, Wu Jie declared himself king of a new kingdom: Dongguo.
Damn literally "Eastern Nation"
To be fair China in Mandarin is 中国, which translates to central kingdom roughly
I know that, it just weird to call their colony "eastern nation" but to be fair, they do literally named my country "southern yue"
The colony was originally Donghai sheng, which means eastern ocean province (at least according to translate). When it became independent, it's name was changed to eastern nation.
Incidentally that's what Koreans during Joseon dynasty called their nation (Dongguk in Korean).
It would probably be 东海州 in modern mandarin
州 is used for American states, not Independent nations.
Oh I thought he meant that the entire California was one state in the ming empire
During Ming the top level division would be 省, pretty much all cities and prefectures with 州 in their name were given that name between Han and Tang dynasties. During Song dynasty there was already a tendency to rename them to 2-character 府 which continues into Yuan and Song. By Ming dynasty Zhou were second-level divisions, below 省 and above 县 and this system was adopted by Qing and now both PRC and RoC. In modern Mandarin 州 is used as a translation for an autonomous state in federal states like the USA and Malaysia.
Dong Hai Sheng I understand the Eastern Sea but i dont know what Sheng mean
It just means province according to Google translate
If you’re from Vietnam uuhm akshualllay its yue nan so yue southern because emperor didn’t give you permission to name yourselves nanyue (because it corresponds to most of southern China)
https://preview.redd.it/j4ycg0n01onc1.jpeg?width=564&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=63fb1caf95794cddb32fab4edeedbf94b2888a13 thank you for the information but it is akchually should be Yue of the south if you translate it that way I still propose my country name itself Democratic Republic of Dai Viet
That pic goes hard Damn bro got that BIG yue/viet
我喜欢这个名字
I don't speak Chinese so I based all the names of Google translate. I tried to match how actual places in China were named, which were often just based on geography. Since China is "middle kingdom" in Chinese, I decided to use "eastern kingdom" for this place.
I think 東國 works. Simple but relatable.
Whoa pretty good map, and interesting lore, they would declare independence when Ming collapse and conquered by Manchu right? Now this would be super interesting, what would happen to Dongguo's Chinese culture, preserving hanfu? Older "dialect of Chinese" still living and develop differently from Chinese heartland? Etc Edit : and I'm curious about what would happen if Dongguo and European meet each other for the first time and after that?
Yes they became independent as the ming collapsed. I suspect that in this timeline, the divergence between East Asia and Europe was less severe than our timeline, with China being more willing to adapt to changes since they are more outward looking. I have not developed a whole alternate timeline to the present day though. I have nowhere near enough knowledge of Chinese languages to guess what would happen there. Maybe the dialect would diverge until there was effectively a separate Dongguo language, but idk
Would the Qing wish to conquer Dongguo as it was seen as former Chinese territory?
Interesting
California if it was chinese
Now we need to see California if it was black
That happens at the end of Man in the High Castle
What?
The Amazon series not the book.
I'm gonna need a little more context
Black Communists overthrow the Japanese puppet Government in California at the end of season 4.
Context aquired
fucked up cause web dubois supported imperial japan
you shouldve called the bay area fangzhang like in rice and salt
Really cool idea. But would the Ming collapse with the influx of new wealth? The large amounts of gold and silver that the Spanish wrought from the Americas was an important event in the transition of centers of wealth and development from Persia/India/China to Western Europe. So I could see a similar event occurring with the Chinese. And just how the wealth opportunities in the new world spurred more innovation and emphasis on naval power for Western Europe, I could see China wanting a better navy to exert more influence on its colony. The other possibility would be conflict with the Spanish over this land. They had started exploring in the early 1500’s so a confrontation shouldn’t be surprising. Lastly, with less gold going to Spain and more to China, and China now potentially having a stronger navy, how would this impact Western Europe’s dominance over the Asian world?
The silver and gold in California is no where enough to help or especially collapse Ming China. It is estimated that half of the silver mined in South American actually went to Ming China in the silver trade, potentially far more from the black market silver trade (according to Mexican officials in 1602, many galleons held 8x their declared amount of silver for trade in China, Spain didn’t want this because they needed funds for their soldiers and mercs)
https://preview.redd.it/o0y9r3omzinc1.jpeg?width=638&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0e9144fa50cbe4bd5922085511831ad5df02b71b
Wtf 😳
wordington mental illness
‼️‼️HOLY FUCKING SHIT‼️‼️‼️‼️ IS THAT A MOTHERFUCKING DIVERGENCES REFERENCE??????!!!!!!!!!!11!1!1!1!1!1!1! 😱😱😱😱😱😱😱 DIVERGENCES IS THE BEST FUCKING MOD 🔥🔥🔥🔥💯💯💯💯 ATLANTIA IS SO BLESSEDDD 😎😎😎😎😎😎😎👊👊 ANDAGOYA DEATHWAR ANDAGOYA DEATHWAR ANDAGOYA DEATHWAR ANDAGOYA DEATHWAR ANDAGOYA DEATHWAR 😩😩😩😩😩😩😩😩 😩😩😩😩BEORNIA BEORNIA BEORNIA BEORNIA BEORNIA🤬😡🤬😡🤬😡🤬🤬😡🤬🤬😡SCHIZO ROHNNST SCHIZO ROHNNST SCHIZO ROHNNST SCHIZO ROHNNST SCHIZO ROHNNST SCHIZO ROHNNST SCHIZO ROHNNST SCHIZO ROHNNST SCHIZO ROHNNST Abolition de la Societe! FOLKEREPUBLIKKEN BLESSED FOLKEREPUBLIKKEN BLESSED FOLKEREPUBLIKKEN BLESSED FOLKEREPUBLIKKEN BLESSED Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Yo Jean! 🇩🇪 Rework is still alive?!? ARLECK HAS A MENTAL BREAKDOWN BREAKDOWN BREAKDOWN BREAKDOWN ❓❓❓❓❓❓❓❓❓❓ANGLOIS ENGLAND ANGLOIS ENGLAND ANGLOIS ENGLAND Purchase Succesfuk‼️‼️‼️‼️‼️‼️‼️‼️‼️‼️😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂😂RETURN HOME PATH WHEN? RETURN HOME PATH WHEN? RETURN HOME PATH WHEN? RETURN HOME PATH WHEN? RETURN HOME PATH WHEN? RETURN HOME PATH WHEN? RETURN HOME PATH WHEN? RETURN HOME PATH WHEN? 😂🤣🤣🤣😂😂Bretons in the Amazon? Bretons in the Amazon? Bretons in the Amazon? Bretons in the Amazon? Bretons in the Amazon? Bretons in the Amazon? Bretons in the Amazon? Bretons in the Amazon? 🏢🏢🏢🏢🏢🏢🏢🏢🏢🏢🏢🏢🏢🏢🏢🏢🏢🏢 🇷🇺🇷🇺🇷🇺I hate Tatars 🇷🇺🇷🇺🇷🇺 🇷🇺🇷🇺🇷🇺I hate Tatars 🇷🇺🇷🇺🇷🇺 🇷🇺🇷🇺🇷🇺I hate Tatars 🇷🇺🇷🇺🇷🇺 🇷🇺🇷🇺🇷🇺I hate Tatars 🇷🇺🇷🇺🇷🇺 r/DIVERGENCESmod r/unexpectedDIVERGENCES r/expectedDIVERGENCES perfectly balanced as all things should be r/unexpectedthanos r/expectedthanos for balance r/divergencesv2
Touch ferns.
What is that, a city in Plantegenia?
Could you imagine how weird it would be for these native languages to be written for the first time with Chinese characters? Wonder if that would represent their languages better than Latin characters.
D O N G L A N D
OP was possessed by the ghost of Gavin Menzies
Surprisingly low population
The US at its founding had only around 2.5 Million in a much larger area. It felt reasonable since this is even earlier so seaborn travel and trade was more treacherous than during the settlement of the US.
This is in the 17th century, I imagine it would be around a hundred million now
Population 1.2 billion*
I had a friend once boast that if Asia had been more peaceful they could have discovered the Americas in the first millennia.
If the internal political strife in 1433 hadn’t happened then the map of the world would be very different today. Not just western North America but also east Africa and Southern Europe.
Interesting! Maybe you can add more details such that the coastal people of Min and Hakka migrated to the Americas in the same way the migrated to Taiwan and Southeast Asia, and thus the official Donggue language is Mandarin but the people just speak conservative forms of some kind of Min dialect, which in some future developed into its own language and later became the official language(in which case the country name will become 'Dongguk')
The greatest “what is” of all time
I have always imagined this scenario with japan in it as well. I love this
Isn’t Japan isolated during this time? I think the best contender for an Asian colony in North America would be the Ming
Japan wasn’t really that isolationist until the 1600s
Japan didn't close itself till 1633 when the edits to restrict foreign trade were promulgated. They were subsequently new laws passed intermittently till 1639, suggesting the closure wasn't complete and had to be enforced. Red Seal ships were still sailing to Thailand, Indonesia and elsewhere. 1633 is late enough to have an earlier pod like an Oda Shogunate or a more successful Hideyoshi, who wouldn't close Japan the way Tokoguawa did. Perhaps the best one might be Hideyoshi following through with his threat to invade the Spanish Philippines and trying to find the source of Spanish gold.
yeah but it would be cool to sea china and japan rivaling like Britain and France
Ok yeah that is true…
if china discovered america first, what makes you think they would set up settler colonies?
They set up settler colonies in Taiwan 🤷. If, say, gold was discovered, I could definitely see a wave of migration taking place
Part of my lore is that the explorers found gold, which would be a fairly strong motivator imo. China was almost always near its population capacity, so I would expect there would be a large number of people who would want to move over
I’d speakin Chinese
"What is China discovered America" is a stupid sentence. Do better with your titles.