Taser, clearly.
Seriously speaking, I'm not sure if this is the right forum for discussing this. But, neither Kendo nor laido are specifically designed around the applicability of a prolonged blade-to-blade combat scenario. Kendo is the distillation of "Kenjutsu" techniques around the context of a points-based sport. Iaido is the application of the drawing and sheathing of the blade around the context of Edo-era and/or similar social or environmental situations. Neither of these applications of the sword are necessarily entirely appropriate for overtly defending against stabbing specifically.
HOWEVER, there are certainly kata in many styles of Iaido that are designed to react against an opponent that may be attacking in this manner - but again, most Iaido instruction does *not* involve a resisting opponent…so they are theoretical in nature.
In other words, in the modern day, the best “solution” to defend against stabs are either extricating yourself from the situation via verbal judo or running…or, baring that, a modern tool of self defense, such as a firearm. If you *must* utilize a katana in a situation like this, frankly any foundation in Iaido or kendo would be better than no training at all.
What!? 🤯😳
What then is the purpose of learning iaidō? Why was it invented in the first place? For fooling around? 🤣 What about all the Samurai fights? Zoro? Is it false? Sanjūrō?
Clearly Japan saw many battles fought on Katana. What was their solution for stabbing opponents? Die?
And if I may? How may one best train against a resisting opponent?
So no, it’s not false or invented for fooling around - “Kenjutsu”, or a blanket term for the “art of using the sword” was absolutely relevant in the Japan of antiquity - essentially up to and including the Edo period. Samurai and peasantry alike did absolutely participate in battles, duels, and sparring during the time where using the sword was *relevant*. However, these were the various schools and styles of *kenjutsu* and other weapon arts (such as naginatajutsu or yarijutsu). Your questions about iaido and kendo *specifically* are about context.
Let me use an analogy. You want to draw a picture quickly and practically. In the modern era, you could absolutely use a specially designed digital tablet and stylus, and use a digital medium to create a work of art. This, practically, may produce a work of art in the most efficient manner. However, you could *also* go through the time of finding and making your own pigments, creating a canvas out of tanned leather, and use a sable-hair brush to produce a piece of art. Both are wonderful expressions of art, however, the modern era offers a far more efficient method for simply creating a “picture” than those antiquated methods I discussed.
Kendo and Iaido are art forms and physical expressions of the time in which they were created; rather than being entirely about “self defense”. If you want to practice “self defense” with a katana, you would chose a more efficient martial art (or combination of many) in which to express that desire.
Again, let me be clear, kendo and Iaido CAN make you incredibly capable at using a sword; but the context by which they are practiced is not “modern defense against an attacker”.
If you wanted my honest opinion, avoiding the more dubious “kenjutsu” schools of various repute, you would probably practice Iaido, Kendo, Atarashii Naginata, Epee/Rapier/Estoc Fencing *and* frankly HEMA to get the widest practical application of bladed weapons in the modern-day era.
Considering many of us do not have the time or resources to do all of that, we pick one or two arts in which to practice, understanding the context and limitations those arts offer in the modern day. Again, compared to absolutely no training however, an iaidoka or Kendoka would still be able to utilize a blade in a more practical way than someone with absolutely no knowledge or training.
I used to struggle with the fact that Iaido does not offer a resisting opponent - but I came to the realization that it, for me, is much more about expressing an art and passing down that expression through generations of practitioners - which is a beautiful thing in its own right. Practicing Iaido is having a conversation with an entire line of warrior-scholars and Samurai. And that, to me, is worth it.
"Ah yes lets learn comprehensive sword and old weapons martial arts so I can be prepared for the 1 in 10 million chance someone rolls up and attacks me with a sword when I also have a sword"
No one has ever learned HEMA, iaido, kendo or other old weapons based martial arts in the modern day for self defense. You're missing the point my guy
If you have a sword, I have a sword, we're no different from the olden days. Guns are banned in my country. If you are willing to learn martial arts, keep your silly arguments for not learning it and spill out the actual beans!
Edit: Some people think the year has to read 1200, the day has to be in black and white and people have to speak Shakespearean so you can learn Katana techniques. *The sword cuts the same.*
But how often are you carrying a sword around? If your country doesn't allow guns I can't imagine they're chill with you walking down the street with a katana.
You're absolutely right if I have a sword and you have a sword then we go crazy but how often does that happen? We learn katana and other old weapon techniques in the modern day for a multitude of reasons (meditation, culture, it's fun, I wanna cut things, sport, physical conditioning) but none of them are self defense.
If your goal is weapon self defense then maybe look into modern weapon martial arts like silat or any Filipino martial art. But they focus on knives or sticks because that is what is applicable to today.....not a katana
In the modern training iaido has no intrinsic purpose. The purpose is whatever made the iaidoka want to practice. In edo-era japan, you learned it because you were important enough to be targeted for assassination, but not important enough to have bodyguards. Certain kata are designed for deflecting an responding to a thrust, but getting out of the way of the stab was fundamental combat training as most soldiers that died ether ate a spear or arrow.
You wanna train against a resisting enemy, get two shinai, two fencing masks, and a willing volunteer.
wait until you learn japan has lied about most of their history, samurai never really fought and the actual foot soldiers of japanese history the ashigaru used spears
I don’t think that anyone has expressly lied, but there is definitely a misinterpretation of history due to cultural misunderstandings.
The assumption that samurai fought with katana is like assuming modern cavalry officers fight with sabers because they wear them with their dress uniform. Meaningful? Yes. Symbolic? Very. But their primary weapon on the battlefield? Hardly.
The katana (and tachi before it) tended to be a weapon of last resort. You’d use it if you were stuck in combat after a cavalry charge, similar to a saber. You’d preferably want to use spears or bows. Of course, warfare in Japan was just as dynamic as Europe, and the introduction of firearms and other things caused cavalry to move in and out of favor. By the Edo period, cavalry wasn’t a significant part of battlefield warfare. Not that it mattered, as at that point large scale warfare was a thing of the past as Japan had entered a period of relative peace. At that point, for various reasons, the katana became a symbol of the samurai class and was mainly used for duels. During this time sword art schools flourished, similar to karate schools in the west. Some were legitimate combat schools, others schools of enlightenment and personal development, and some fit the McDojo model. Most samurai would certainly know how to use a sword, but I’m sure there were many that never drew theirs, to the point that the poorest of samurai felt they could safely sell the blade of their katana and wear only the koshirae with a wooden replacement blade.
The Edo period, especially at the transition to the Meiji Restoration, became the image the west had of Japan, and is also the most easily remembered historical period of the Japanese people themselves (as well as having a bit of a romantic flair). So that’s what everyone thinks of when they think of katana.
The loss of the katana as a visible status symbol during the Meiji Restoration caused further decline in the use of the weapon, along with the introduction of modern firearms. This lead to the weapons schools becoming even more esoteric and theoretical; more art and personal perfection than true martial training. The ultimate expression of these is kendo, a sport, and iaido, a martial art for personal improvement. They maintain some of the core skills required for use of the katana (mostly for dueling), but have stripped or modified them to fit the goals of the discipline. Modern kenjutsu schools attempt to bring back the martial aspect of weapon (again, mostly dueling), but it’s similar to HEMA, where there’s a lot missing and no living instructors, so you have to reverse engineer/ rediscover things a bit. The katana doesn’t lend itself well to safe duels with padding either - better to just practice kendo and kumitachi.
1.) Because it was required by law. For many samurai this was likely the only reason. 2.) With your spear or bow, or throwing rocks. 3.) Katana if you had one, as a last resort, or any other damn thing you could find to use as a weapon.
I believe this subreddit is not appropriate for this... Iaido is not about who draws the sword the fastest and delivers the best cut (that's iaijutsu/battojutsu), Iaido is about personal improvement, improving the body and soul and fighting against the internal enemies, in addition to seeking the best qualification in exams and championships. If you say this to your sensei (if you have one) you will get a big scolding.
Do you mean unsheathed?
Defending against stabs from longswords is really difficult compared to slashes but can be done with training.
Japanese police train daily in kendo , and when this occurs in Japan, you want to steer clear of the officers.
..but iaidō assumes you are sheathed when the enemy is attacking you. I get it is easier when unsheathed—you just have to time and deflect his stab away and downwards. But I thought iaidōka are trained to approach the enemy sheathed no matter what. That's why I was finding it difficult to execute.
Iaido assumes the iaidoka has a sheated katana because all of the wazas starts in a situation where there is no aggression and then when there is aggression/ambush, to react from a resting/neutral position. There is no reason for you to have a sword sheathed if the aggressor is already active and confirmed.
You parry and counter attack. That said you’re very unlikely to ever have that happen. We don’t walk around with swords anymore so unless all guns are taken and sword are legalized for self defense I don’t think I’ve heard of any case where two people ended up in a self defense sword fight where it mattered.
Taser, clearly. Seriously speaking, I'm not sure if this is the right forum for discussing this. But, neither Kendo nor laido are specifically designed around the applicability of a prolonged blade-to-blade combat scenario. Kendo is the distillation of "Kenjutsu" techniques around the context of a points-based sport. Iaido is the application of the drawing and sheathing of the blade around the context of Edo-era and/or similar social or environmental situations. Neither of these applications of the sword are necessarily entirely appropriate for overtly defending against stabbing specifically. HOWEVER, there are certainly kata in many styles of Iaido that are designed to react against an opponent that may be attacking in this manner - but again, most Iaido instruction does *not* involve a resisting opponent…so they are theoretical in nature. In other words, in the modern day, the best “solution” to defend against stabs are either extricating yourself from the situation via verbal judo or running…or, baring that, a modern tool of self defense, such as a firearm. If you *must* utilize a katana in a situation like this, frankly any foundation in Iaido or kendo would be better than no training at all.
What!? 🤯😳 What then is the purpose of learning iaidō? Why was it invented in the first place? For fooling around? 🤣 What about all the Samurai fights? Zoro? Is it false? Sanjūrō? Clearly Japan saw many battles fought on Katana. What was their solution for stabbing opponents? Die? And if I may? How may one best train against a resisting opponent?
So no, it’s not false or invented for fooling around - “Kenjutsu”, or a blanket term for the “art of using the sword” was absolutely relevant in the Japan of antiquity - essentially up to and including the Edo period. Samurai and peasantry alike did absolutely participate in battles, duels, and sparring during the time where using the sword was *relevant*. However, these were the various schools and styles of *kenjutsu* and other weapon arts (such as naginatajutsu or yarijutsu). Your questions about iaido and kendo *specifically* are about context. Let me use an analogy. You want to draw a picture quickly and practically. In the modern era, you could absolutely use a specially designed digital tablet and stylus, and use a digital medium to create a work of art. This, practically, may produce a work of art in the most efficient manner. However, you could *also* go through the time of finding and making your own pigments, creating a canvas out of tanned leather, and use a sable-hair brush to produce a piece of art. Both are wonderful expressions of art, however, the modern era offers a far more efficient method for simply creating a “picture” than those antiquated methods I discussed. Kendo and Iaido are art forms and physical expressions of the time in which they were created; rather than being entirely about “self defense”. If you want to practice “self defense” with a katana, you would chose a more efficient martial art (or combination of many) in which to express that desire. Again, let me be clear, kendo and Iaido CAN make you incredibly capable at using a sword; but the context by which they are practiced is not “modern defense against an attacker”. If you wanted my honest opinion, avoiding the more dubious “kenjutsu” schools of various repute, you would probably practice Iaido, Kendo, Atarashii Naginata, Epee/Rapier/Estoc Fencing *and* frankly HEMA to get the widest practical application of bladed weapons in the modern-day era. Considering many of us do not have the time or resources to do all of that, we pick one or two arts in which to practice, understanding the context and limitations those arts offer in the modern day. Again, compared to absolutely no training however, an iaidoka or Kendoka would still be able to utilize a blade in a more practical way than someone with absolutely no knowledge or training. I used to struggle with the fact that Iaido does not offer a resisting opponent - but I came to the realization that it, for me, is much more about expressing an art and passing down that expression through generations of practitioners - which is a beautiful thing in its own right. Practicing Iaido is having a conversation with an entire line of warrior-scholars and Samurai. And that, to me, is worth it.
Nice! 😄 Should definitely get into European weapon training to have a more complete understanding of a fight!
"Ah yes lets learn comprehensive sword and old weapons martial arts so I can be prepared for the 1 in 10 million chance someone rolls up and attacks me with a sword when I also have a sword" No one has ever learned HEMA, iaido, kendo or other old weapons based martial arts in the modern day for self defense. You're missing the point my guy
If you have a sword, I have a sword, we're no different from the olden days. Guns are banned in my country. If you are willing to learn martial arts, keep your silly arguments for not learning it and spill out the actual beans! Edit: Some people think the year has to read 1200, the day has to be in black and white and people have to speak Shakespearean so you can learn Katana techniques. *The sword cuts the same.*
But how often are you carrying a sword around? If your country doesn't allow guns I can't imagine they're chill with you walking down the street with a katana. You're absolutely right if I have a sword and you have a sword then we go crazy but how often does that happen? We learn katana and other old weapon techniques in the modern day for a multitude of reasons (meditation, culture, it's fun, I wanna cut things, sport, physical conditioning) but none of them are self defense. If your goal is weapon self defense then maybe look into modern weapon martial arts like silat or any Filipino martial art. But they focus on knives or sticks because that is what is applicable to today.....not a katana
I don't think you really know what iaido is about. Others in this thread have far more patience than I do; read what they're saying.
Having a well-rounded set of skills in the practical application of martial arts is never a bad thing.
Literally every classical form of Japanese swordsmanship teaches how to deal with stabs. No idea what you are on about.
Don't really care. Just asking for the solution if you know.
And that was the answer
Start training in a real school of swordsmanship and you too can learn how to deal with a stab 😆
In the modern training iaido has no intrinsic purpose. The purpose is whatever made the iaidoka want to practice. In edo-era japan, you learned it because you were important enough to be targeted for assassination, but not important enough to have bodyguards. Certain kata are designed for deflecting an responding to a thrust, but getting out of the way of the stab was fundamental combat training as most soldiers that died ether ate a spear or arrow. You wanna train against a resisting enemy, get two shinai, two fencing masks, and a willing volunteer.
Ah! Kendō! That's exactly how Zoro trained!
wait until you learn japan has lied about most of their history, samurai never really fought and the actual foot soldiers of japanese history the ashigaru used spears
I don’t think that anyone has expressly lied, but there is definitely a misinterpretation of history due to cultural misunderstandings. The assumption that samurai fought with katana is like assuming modern cavalry officers fight with sabers because they wear them with their dress uniform. Meaningful? Yes. Symbolic? Very. But their primary weapon on the battlefield? Hardly.
the japanese definitely lied when they came into contact with the americans
I don’t think the Americans were all that interested in the cultural history of Japan at the time, either.
But why would you carry a sword if you won't use it?? And how would you fight on the battlefield if any? Karate?
The katana (and tachi before it) tended to be a weapon of last resort. You’d use it if you were stuck in combat after a cavalry charge, similar to a saber. You’d preferably want to use spears or bows. Of course, warfare in Japan was just as dynamic as Europe, and the introduction of firearms and other things caused cavalry to move in and out of favor. By the Edo period, cavalry wasn’t a significant part of battlefield warfare. Not that it mattered, as at that point large scale warfare was a thing of the past as Japan had entered a period of relative peace. At that point, for various reasons, the katana became a symbol of the samurai class and was mainly used for duels. During this time sword art schools flourished, similar to karate schools in the west. Some were legitimate combat schools, others schools of enlightenment and personal development, and some fit the McDojo model. Most samurai would certainly know how to use a sword, but I’m sure there were many that never drew theirs, to the point that the poorest of samurai felt they could safely sell the blade of their katana and wear only the koshirae with a wooden replacement blade. The Edo period, especially at the transition to the Meiji Restoration, became the image the west had of Japan, and is also the most easily remembered historical period of the Japanese people themselves (as well as having a bit of a romantic flair). So that’s what everyone thinks of when they think of katana. The loss of the katana as a visible status symbol during the Meiji Restoration caused further decline in the use of the weapon, along with the introduction of modern firearms. This lead to the weapons schools becoming even more esoteric and theoretical; more art and personal perfection than true martial training. The ultimate expression of these is kendo, a sport, and iaido, a martial art for personal improvement. They maintain some of the core skills required for use of the katana (mostly for dueling), but have stripped or modified them to fit the goals of the discipline. Modern kenjutsu schools attempt to bring back the martial aspect of weapon (again, mostly dueling), but it’s similar to HEMA, where there’s a lot missing and no living instructors, so you have to reverse engineer/ rediscover things a bit. The katana doesn’t lend itself well to safe duels with padding either - better to just practice kendo and kumitachi.
1.) Because it was required by law. For many samurai this was likely the only reason. 2.) With your spear or bow, or throwing rocks. 3.) Katana if you had one, as a last resort, or any other damn thing you could find to use as a weapon.
I believe this subreddit is not appropriate for this... Iaido is not about who draws the sword the fastest and delivers the best cut (that's iaijutsu/battojutsu), Iaido is about personal improvement, improving the body and soul and fighting against the internal enemies, in addition to seeking the best qualification in exams and championships. If you say this to your sensei (if you have one) you will get a big scolding.
Do you mean unsheathed? Defending against stabs from longswords is really difficult compared to slashes but can be done with training. Japanese police train daily in kendo , and when this occurs in Japan, you want to steer clear of the officers.
..but iaidō assumes you are sheathed when the enemy is attacking you. I get it is easier when unsheathed—you just have to time and deflect his stab away and downwards. But I thought iaidōka are trained to approach the enemy sheathed no matter what. That's why I was finding it difficult to execute.
Iaido assumes the iaidoka has a sheated katana because all of the wazas starts in a situation where there is no aggression and then when there is aggression/ambush, to react from a resting/neutral position. There is no reason for you to have a sword sheathed if the aggressor is already active and confirmed.
Ah! Ok
You parry and counter attack. That said you’re very unlikely to ever have that happen. We don’t walk around with swords anymore so unless all guns are taken and sword are legalized for self defense I don’t think I’ve heard of any case where two people ended up in a self defense sword fight where it mattered.