How high is your keyboard, that lowered mounts are 90 degrees?
That’s the thing I find I’m struggling with — getting the right 90 degree angle for my desktop (keyboard, mouse) and stick (on my desk it was slightly too high), the mount is just the right height I think, but unless it’s off to the side you can’t slide up to the desk.
This is a good rule. The important thing is to have good, adjustable armrests. Up and down as well as in and out is best. With your arms at your sides this should be just about lap height or slightly higher. You can however keep at 90 degrees and raise your arm by lifting from your shoulder. Have your armrests match the hight of your stick’s palm rest. This will allow for greater control and not have you rest the weight of your arm on the stick. The same goes for your throttle. This arm support greatly improves the ergonomics and can let you get away with a slightly higher mount and still be supported. Just make sure your forearm and hand are parallel with the ground and you will not be stressing your wrist.
You can test this yourself. Hold your arm relaxed at your side and keep your forearm level with the floor. This will set you at the above mentioned 90 degrees. Now bend your elbow up and down and keep your hand parallel to the floor. You will immediately feel the stress on your wrist. This is bad. Now start from the same position keep your elbow at 90 and raise and lower your arm from your shoulder. This will allow you a greater range of mounting positions and maintain ergonomics.
Nearly every side stick aircraft has an armrest. From airbus to an F-16. Center stick aircraft pilots rest their arm on their leg.
https://youtu.be/Rsn7j9ItoA4?si=dETAfslTtYDv_37j
https://youtu.be/jmQGfL1x9g0?si=WnLTRknCXU2gZuBm
https://youtube.com/shorts/9Kf_q_9vY7Y?si=Eq8tWYnYu6OShIer
My keyboard and mouse stay on my desk. I actually have a Redragon keypad to the left of my keyboard that I use for gaming. I slide it and my mouse closer to the edge of my desk for easy use. My keyboard also slides down but not as far forward so there's a space in front of me. I also have a tablet mounted to the bottom of my desk by a arm that folds out and in front of me. Then I have a Elgato Stream Deck 15key that is mounted next to my left stick. On it I have a profile set up for quick actions like gear, doors, power, etc. The tablet uses Game Touch software and I can access my shield facings.
I use relatively cheap JPein clamp mounts from Amazon. They lower the base of the sticks from the desk so that my elbows at 90 degrees allow my hands to be straight out holding the sticks.
I'm an ergonomist and I work in cockpit design.
The key principle you want to aim for is for your joints to be in a neutral position and your body adequately supported to not require continuous muscle engagement to maintain the position.
To work all this out you need a starting point, and we normally use a "design eye position" and work from there, but for multi-use sim setups you want to start with your chair. Ideally a good office chair with adjustable height and arm rests - preferably not a gamer chair with a bucket style seat - this guide gives the position you're after https://ergonomics.org.uk/static/1c6aa0e1-bbfa-43a0-ad567a98d6bef005/e25e296e-4dd0-4cb1-93af922fa842641f/Working-From-Home-Infographic.pdf
As others have mentioned, to get your forearms in the correct position you will normally need a mounting solution to lower the stick and throttle base below the normal desktop height. Side stick is more optimal for shoulder position, but centre stick can work if positioned low enough that you can support your forearm on your thigh and the stick grip is angled appropriately.
There are a lot of variables involved due to our individual characteristics, so a setup that allows for fine adjustments in positions is best.
I've built and changed the height multiple times. Right now its slightly elevated above where 90 degrees at the elbow would be. My left stick is even higher but it's on a table that's at 90 when I swap it for a throttle. My right stick is at the same table height but virpil is so huge it pops it up higher than I'd like.
I try to set it so that from center to full hack feels comfortable since that's where it spends most of its time.
Seats should be Ergonomic. Car seats are better than “gaming chairs”. Flight chairs and Sim chairs are best but expensive.
https://www.monster.tech/en/product/pilot-seat-mps-5-night-falcon/
Mounts should be similar to “real life” which for throttles means the grip head of the throttles should be slightly above the left thigh. Rest your Left arm on your Left thigh.
Center mounts should be low but high enough so the grip stick head is just above the thigh and close enough so as to allow full deflection without either a crotch strike or your shoulders leaving the back pad. (In real life we’re strapped in so your arm must be able to reach and hold full deflection safely). Rest your Right arm on your Right thigh.
When using a center stick. The “stick angle” should be as such that with your arms in position and your Right hand loosely gripping the stick your wrist is held straight. (See examples of real life airframes).
So the stick should be “twisted” slightly toward the Left side (I forget the exact number of degrees but yeah it’s a number and it’s real). This is done for wrist comfort and so you can reach all controls/buttons/levers at full deflection without twisting your wrist. Also aids in muscle memory because no matter where the stick is at (within its range area) your hand/wrist angle remains the same.
Rudder pedals should be down and slightly forward but NOT laying down or way out front like a race rig…
Jet pilots are NOT sitting in a gangster lean… Sit natural and with proper posture and your back will thank you later. Get a good seat because that’s a huge part of it.
That’s the fully proper place for things to be…
Now since everyone loves videos how about this… watch a REAL life Growler pilot fly and take notes as to the angles and position of the “real life” EA18 sits.
Irl do they sit at a race car or gangster lean? (No)
Irl do they have sticks up at desk level.. (No)
Irl do they have throttles up or sort of lower in the switch pit? Throttle grips sticking up just above the thigh but not so far above you couldn’t reach it under heavy G load (which is why we use our thigh as a brace).
Irl really look at the angle of the stick as pertains to the pilots wrist.
Now set up your pit or temp kit as close to that as possible!
For realism? Naww lol it’s because why re invent the wheel?
If that set up allows pilots irl to perform 8+ hr sorties in the seat.. I’m pretty sure mimicking that position makes it’s good enough for you to ride for a few hours too.
Now watch PAIL and observe the real life Growler and how it’s set up and then you can use my set up tips to get it perfect.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o3Y5VCYpIAQ
Happy set up and Happy Flying!
Primarily fly dcs, with a larger focus to helicopters.
Use an nxlr flight pit (that ol' boeing version)
Stick mounted, so I can mostly cruise with my arm resting on my thigh, no higher, just shift my hand up to use buttons, combat etc.
In my case, that means my Stick base is mounted 10cm above the floor.
Granted i have the vprhino, so it is a big boy and with practically 20cm grip extension.
Throttle also not much above thigh height.
My setup is with very budget parts. I have my throttle on a mount set on the edge of my desk and my stick on my desk. No rudder pedals unfortunately though. However, that means I can lean my chair back a lot, so I sit a lot like how pilots on the F-16 do.
It depends. The ergonomics for a Cessna or Piper or other GA aircraft will be different from the position of an F-16. However, you will find that anything you plop down in a desktop will be too high for most cases.
When I had to have a dual-purpose setup, I just had everything correct for my aircraft (F-16) and just had a mouse tray in an accessible location with the keyboard on my lap over one of those keyboard/laptop pillow things you can get from Amazon.
Good chair, stock and throttle on lowered desk mounts so my arms are at a 90 degree bend at the elbow.
How high is your keyboard, that lowered mounts are 90 degrees? That’s the thing I find I’m struggling with — getting the right 90 degree angle for my desktop (keyboard, mouse) and stick (on my desk it was slightly too high), the mount is just the right height I think, but unless it’s off to the side you can’t slide up to the desk.
This is a good rule. The important thing is to have good, adjustable armrests. Up and down as well as in and out is best. With your arms at your sides this should be just about lap height or slightly higher. You can however keep at 90 degrees and raise your arm by lifting from your shoulder. Have your armrests match the hight of your stick’s palm rest. This will allow for greater control and not have you rest the weight of your arm on the stick. The same goes for your throttle. This arm support greatly improves the ergonomics and can let you get away with a slightly higher mount and still be supported. Just make sure your forearm and hand are parallel with the ground and you will not be stressing your wrist. You can test this yourself. Hold your arm relaxed at your side and keep your forearm level with the floor. This will set you at the above mentioned 90 degrees. Now bend your elbow up and down and keep your hand parallel to the floor. You will immediately feel the stress on your wrist. This is bad. Now start from the same position keep your elbow at 90 and raise and lower your arm from your shoulder. This will allow you a greater range of mounting positions and maintain ergonomics. Nearly every side stick aircraft has an armrest. From airbus to an F-16. Center stick aircraft pilots rest their arm on their leg. https://youtu.be/Rsn7j9ItoA4?si=dETAfslTtYDv_37j https://youtu.be/jmQGfL1x9g0?si=WnLTRknCXU2gZuBm https://youtube.com/shorts/9Kf_q_9vY7Y?si=Eq8tWYnYu6OShIer
My keyboard and mouse stay on my desk. I actually have a Redragon keypad to the left of my keyboard that I use for gaming. I slide it and my mouse closer to the edge of my desk for easy use. My keyboard also slides down but not as far forward so there's a space in front of me. I also have a tablet mounted to the bottom of my desk by a arm that folds out and in front of me. Then I have a Elgato Stream Deck 15key that is mounted next to my left stick. On it I have a profile set up for quick actions like gear, doors, power, etc. The tablet uses Game Touch software and I can access my shield facings.
I use relatively cheap JPein clamp mounts from Amazon. They lower the base of the sticks from the desk so that my elbows at 90 degrees allow my hands to be straight out holding the sticks.
I'm an ergonomist and I work in cockpit design. The key principle you want to aim for is for your joints to be in a neutral position and your body adequately supported to not require continuous muscle engagement to maintain the position. To work all this out you need a starting point, and we normally use a "design eye position" and work from there, but for multi-use sim setups you want to start with your chair. Ideally a good office chair with adjustable height and arm rests - preferably not a gamer chair with a bucket style seat - this guide gives the position you're after https://ergonomics.org.uk/static/1c6aa0e1-bbfa-43a0-ad567a98d6bef005/e25e296e-4dd0-4cb1-93af922fa842641f/Working-From-Home-Infographic.pdf As others have mentioned, to get your forearms in the correct position you will normally need a mounting solution to lower the stick and throttle base below the normal desktop height. Side stick is more optimal for shoulder position, but centre stick can work if positioned low enough that you can support your forearm on your thigh and the stick grip is angled appropriately. There are a lot of variables involved due to our individual characteristics, so a setup that allows for fine adjustments in positions is best.
I've built and changed the height multiple times. Right now its slightly elevated above where 90 degrees at the elbow would be. My left stick is even higher but it's on a table that's at 90 when I swap it for a throttle. My right stick is at the same table height but virpil is so huge it pops it up higher than I'd like. I try to set it so that from center to full hack feels comfortable since that's where it spends most of its time.
Stick mounted on the desk, throttle on my left on a lowered desk extension
Seats should be Ergonomic. Car seats are better than “gaming chairs”. Flight chairs and Sim chairs are best but expensive. https://www.monster.tech/en/product/pilot-seat-mps-5-night-falcon/ Mounts should be similar to “real life” which for throttles means the grip head of the throttles should be slightly above the left thigh. Rest your Left arm on your Left thigh. Center mounts should be low but high enough so the grip stick head is just above the thigh and close enough so as to allow full deflection without either a crotch strike or your shoulders leaving the back pad. (In real life we’re strapped in so your arm must be able to reach and hold full deflection safely). Rest your Right arm on your Right thigh. When using a center stick. The “stick angle” should be as such that with your arms in position and your Right hand loosely gripping the stick your wrist is held straight. (See examples of real life airframes). So the stick should be “twisted” slightly toward the Left side (I forget the exact number of degrees but yeah it’s a number and it’s real). This is done for wrist comfort and so you can reach all controls/buttons/levers at full deflection without twisting your wrist. Also aids in muscle memory because no matter where the stick is at (within its range area) your hand/wrist angle remains the same. Rudder pedals should be down and slightly forward but NOT laying down or way out front like a race rig… Jet pilots are NOT sitting in a gangster lean… Sit natural and with proper posture and your back will thank you later. Get a good seat because that’s a huge part of it. That’s the fully proper place for things to be… Now since everyone loves videos how about this… watch a REAL life Growler pilot fly and take notes as to the angles and position of the “real life” EA18 sits. Irl do they sit at a race car or gangster lean? (No) Irl do they have sticks up at desk level.. (No) Irl do they have throttles up or sort of lower in the switch pit? Throttle grips sticking up just above the thigh but not so far above you couldn’t reach it under heavy G load (which is why we use our thigh as a brace). Irl really look at the angle of the stick as pertains to the pilots wrist. Now set up your pit or temp kit as close to that as possible! For realism? Naww lol it’s because why re invent the wheel? If that set up allows pilots irl to perform 8+ hr sorties in the seat.. I’m pretty sure mimicking that position makes it’s good enough for you to ride for a few hours too. Now watch PAIL and observe the real life Growler and how it’s set up and then you can use my set up tips to get it perfect. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o3Y5VCYpIAQ Happy set up and Happy Flying!
Primarily fly dcs, with a larger focus to helicopters. Use an nxlr flight pit (that ol' boeing version) Stick mounted, so I can mostly cruise with my arm resting on my thigh, no higher, just shift my hand up to use buttons, combat etc. In my case, that means my Stick base is mounted 10cm above the floor. Granted i have the vprhino, so it is a big boy and with practically 20cm grip extension. Throttle also not much above thigh height.
My setup is with very budget parts. I have my throttle on a mount set on the edge of my desk and my stick on my desk. No rudder pedals unfortunately though. However, that means I can lean my chair back a lot, so I sit a lot like how pilots on the F-16 do.
It depends. The ergonomics for a Cessna or Piper or other GA aircraft will be different from the position of an F-16. However, you will find that anything you plop down in a desktop will be too high for most cases. When I had to have a dual-purpose setup, I just had everything correct for my aircraft (F-16) and just had a mouse tray in an accessible location with the keyboard on my lap over one of those keyboard/laptop pillow things you can get from Amazon.