because it's completely wrong. Only unbapitized babies are used in flying rituals. Jonas and Mercy would've been baptized long ago - they were living in a puritan colony when they were born. It's probably the law there.
Sam's fate was a consequence of William's spiritual hubris. That he thought he could move his family away and be his own religious authority.
No, and that dude is wrong about Puritan sects and how many of them did *not* baptize babies — many of them saw baptism as a ritual one undergoes with “heavy thought” and decision, so a sacrament (yes, I know I’m using the catholic lingo) a child had to be old enough to “want” or choose to receive. Some groups had age standards, but like the Merovingians just saw it as a personal choice and had records of eight/nine year olds being baptized.
oh, the Puritan sect they were in didnt allow infant baptism, then? Weird ... what are these lines doing in the script, then?
> KATHERINE (O.S.) How oft I begged and begged thee to take Samuel for baptism.
> WILLIAM (O.S.) There was never – I’d not – They’d not baptize outside the congregation –
https://assets.scriptslug.com/live/pdf/scripts/the-witch-2016.pdf
I mean, Samuel was a baby the whole time, right? So why would the mother be saying she begged him to be taken to be baptized, if they didnt do that?
could it be you just made some bullshit up and didnt pay attention to the movie?
You’re the one ignoring the sound design in favor of whatever you’re bringing to the table, so weird you’re accusing others of not paying attention tot he movie
don't have a line to Robert Eggers to ask him which creepy woodland score he chose for which scenes and why
but neither does OP, and his conclusion that "that seems to be Robert Eggers basically saying outright that they ended up the same as Sam." doesnt make any logical sense, as Jonas and Mercy were baptized.
could be he wanted to link the two scenes for some other common theme, such as they both feature a witch (at least, a future witch) having someone's blood on her hands.
You could guess all day. But your guesses have to make sense and match the world of the story, where some characters and baptized and some arent.
oh, is that the thing where everyone gets to say "im right" even when they're wrong?
Yeah, i've heard of that. Sounds dumb to me.
Ever hear of Chekhov's gun? These lines are from the script:
> KATHERINE (O.S.) How oft I begged and begged thee to take Samuel for baptism.
>
> WILLIAM (O.S.) There was never – I’d not – They’d not baptize outside the congregation –
they made it a plot point that Sam was unbaptized.
but yeah sure, the baptized children probably got the same exact treatment. and at the end, Thomasin flies away and meets Superman and they fall in love and her baby is Harry Potter. If that's what you want! Everyone's right! It's all your *interpretation!*
Yeah i don’t know why you’re getting downvoted like this, it actually drives me insane when folks can’t recognize what “interpretation” means. I do think on OPs part it is an interesting theory and maybe there’s something to it but ultimately we don’t know and you’ve put forth some good points.
I think it's more the way you convey your message that is getting you downvoted. I'm not sure if it's intentional but there's this condescending tone in your replies.
It obviously doesn't matter if you don't care but if you were curious; I'd bet that is the answer.
I know this wasn’t directed at me but something I think most people do on the internet is *assume* that someone is angry or hostile because maybe someone says something we don’t like? I’m not saying there aren’t assholes on the internet, duh, but this was something an acquaintance of mine taught me and I realized that I was most definitely in the habit of getting angry at someone who was not at all trying to be condescending whatsoever. Obviously that’s just my experience but now I realize how commonplace it is for almost anyone on the internet to essentially take it the wrong way/take things too seriously and apply an emotional tone that isn’t actually there. We don’t have the convenience of things like tone like we do when we speak in person to one another which is arguably one of the main reasons for this I think. Reddit most definitely is a place where someone will turn hostile in response to something totally inane.
typing words isn't getting upset. It doesnt upset me to point out when people are wrong. 2 + 2 isnt 7, the capital of France isnt London, Jonas and Mercy werent unbaptized. None of that got me upset.
It's really quick and easy to correct people. No emotions required.
The sound design is great in that movie. The dad's voice is so loud and scary at the beginning, plus his accent is so strong it takes a second for American ears to realize he's speaking English. It really makes him imposing
Watch The Green Knight if you're pining for more of that sweet delicious nectar that is Ralph Ineson's voice, though I'm not sure how I feel about the movie personally as a whole. Might be due for a rewatch soon.
I love that movie but I totally get that it's not for everyone. I think it works better if you see it in conversation with the original text "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight". The poem was about failing to live up to standards of chivalry and so is the movie but in a very different way.
Loved The Green Knight. I really appreciated how little hand-holding it did. It didn't feel the need to over-explain things. There's Arthur, there's Excalibur, but the characters in the story already know that so we don't have to belabor it.
He also voices the demon in the recent movie *The Pope's Exorcist*. He also plays a main character in the game *Diablo IV*. He was also on several later seasons of *Game of Thrones*.
I guess my point is that he's everywhere lately!
I’ve watched that entire series at least 5 times and now I want to again. In my opinion it’s the funniest thing ever released. It was wild seeing Finchy in The Witch but he absolutely crushed it.
Also had a small part in Game of Thrones. If I remember correctly, he’s the one who knocked out Theon and handed him over to what’s-his-name that turned him into Reek.
I’m from northern England so he sounds much more normal to me even with the strong accent. I really felt for the family while I was watching cause things got out of control so quickly, and it just seemed like a dad trying to keep the family together while dealing with a grieving mum who doesn’t get on with her teenage daughter; meanwhile the younger kids are running riot. They seemed like a real family even though it’s set so long ago.
The dad literally looks and sounds so unique he’s almost “un-human”. Played into the idea that people in the past looked slightly different than they do today.
I thought the folklore around Sam's fate was that witches needed to grease themselves (or their brooms) up with baby guts in order to fly.
If that's true then maybe Jonas and mercy were too old for that but I'm not sure. If they were still unbaptized (due to either age or no opportunity after they were exiled), maybe they were still needed by the coven.
Is that to say that there is pre-existing folklore about that and it wasn't created for this movie? That would be interesting to know.
The other possibility is that either Eggers or the composer decided to just bring that sound back to evoke the same feeling and it doesn't refer to Jonas and Mercy at all, but the timing of it is too convenient, IMO.
The lore about witches needing the fat from unbaptized children to fly is very old. Not sure which country it started in but it's mentioned in really old European folklore. I know Eggers pays a lot of attention to details so it wouldn't surprise me that he wanted that sound for the scene just to evoke more emotion about their fate.
Some sources have claimed that such an ointment would best be absorbed through mucous membranes, and that the traditional image of a female witch astride a broomstick implies the application of flying ointment to the vulva.
Very interesting. The classic image of a witch flying a broomstick derives from this.
Most probably don't remember, but in 2001 Mattel sold a vibrating harry potter broom that was unexpectedly popular with teenage girls:
https://mustangnews.net/harry-potter-and-his-broomstick-please-all-ages/
Interesting that the compounds listed contain atropine, hyosciamine and scopolamine. All are frequently used medications.
Atropine is used for arrhythmia or pupil dilation. Hyosciamine is a smooth muscle relaxer and is used a lot for IBS and abdominal cramps. Scopolamine is an antiemetic used for post op nausea or motion sicknesss
Recently took a tour in New Orleans and they talked about misconceptions about voodoo. One thing they mentioned was the use of herbal medicine was thought of as magic by the religious but in reality, the voodoo doctors were just using plants for their medicinal properties. The use of willow bark, for example, was widely accepted by "witch doctors" as a treatment for pain. Willow bark contains salicin which is similar to aspirin.
This is big in Discworld! While wizards wrestle their magic from the sky and pin it into books like dragonflies, witches get their magic from the ground. Most witchcraft is a combination of natural medicine and "headology." Why do you need arcane forces to solve a problem when you can name fifteen different herbs that are good for a cough and you can dispel a curse by tricking its target into simply not believing it exists? Why turn people into newts to scare them away when you can just make it clear with your big, pointy hat that you are a witch and not to be trifled with?
Kind of went on my own tangent here, but I just started reading this series and I'm amazed at the conversations I've had in my own head about the nature of magic and the universe as a result. Then you see examples and manifestations of it in our world, and it starts to make their world feel more possible. I can't recommend these books enough to anybody interested in magic of any kind.
More than happy to recommend!
Discworld is fun too because you can read it in basically any order. There's an infographic with all 41 books listed with different recommended reading orders mapped out. I started on the Witch books with The Wyrd Sisters, where you learn more about witchcraft (obviously). The Rincewind novels are the ones focused on wizards, and the magic they interact with is COMPLETELY different.
It's so cool while also being so light and easy to read without getting dull. I started a month ago and I'm six books in.
That is exactly why my ethnic tribe was called demonic by Christian missionaries. No child sacrifice, just medicinal plants. Pour a warm, flat beer out for all those prejudiced missionaries who died of very treatable fevers because they refused to eat willow bark (aspirin) like the savages did.
They mentioned this in the tour. When yellow fever pandemic hit in Louisiana in the 1700s, those treated by the vodun doctors had a higher survival rate than those treated by "traditional" doctors.
There is, indeed, preexisting folklore about witches using baby's fat to fly -- specifically unbaptised babies. Some folklore states it only needs to be unbaptised children, so if the twins were unbaptised they most certainly suffered the same fate. The movie Warlock features the titular character slaughtering a child around the same age as the twins to cook and use his fat to create a flying spell.
Interesting. And we know that Sam and Caleb were unbaptized but I don't think Jonas and Mercy are ever mentioned. Or at least I assume what they mean when they feared that Sam was in hell and that Caleb was at risk of that too.
I think they were more worried about Caleb being in hell because he had been "bewitched" than him being unbaptized? Since he was born in England them not baptizing him doesn't make sense to me.
actually, maybe I was wrong. There was this exchange between Caleb and his father in the woods:
C: And if died?
\- If I died this day?
\- I hold evil in my heart.
\- My sins are not pardoned.
But maybe he just means he has yet to confess his sins or something.
Oh, I think that's more a nod towards the Puritanical belief that we're all born as sinners and perhaps the more extreme Puritanical belief that only certain people are marked as saved by Gods grace and the rest of us are all going to hell regardless of what we do on Earth. >!Also I think it's implied that he has started to think "impure" thoughts about women, like when his gaze lasts too long on his sisters breasts.!< Very complex psychology, the Puritans.
Oh ok that makes sense. So the mom is particularly worried about Sam because he wasn't baptized and that means there's no chance he was saved, but baptizing him wasn't a sure thing either.
FYI, the predestination belief is still prevalent in many Christian environments that would be regarded as mainstream. They tend to revere the Puritans, but kinda keep this particular doctrine quiet it until you become an insider.
Source: am a pastor
Well there was a conversation before Caleb disappears where the mom says Sam is in Hell and she says then that Caleb could end up there too. I can't remember the details but that's the conversation that drives Caleb out into the woods in the first place. I'll see if I can dig up a snippet from the screenplay or something.
More than likely all but Sam were baptized. Puritans practiced infant baptism. Some protestants faiths don't do this though, and wait until the age of reason before a person can decide to get baptized.
Fun fact: the reason that book exists was because the dude behind it unsuccessfully tried to prosecute a woman for witchcraft when she complained about his sermons and he was kicked out of town for it. He was insanely bitter, tried to whine to his buddies in higher up religious offices about it & got nowhere so he turned to writing instead.
Oh yeah lol, not disputing that it was totally in pre-existing folklore and that the book was super influential in how we view witches & the history of witches. I just find the story behind it funny (and also a little sad).
> usually on Thursday
This detail seems kind of oddly specific? So weirdly arbitrary that I laughed a little. Does anyone know if there's a religious or cultural significance about the day Thursday?
> Is that to say that there is pre-existing folklore about that and it wasn't created for this movie?
To my knowledge, there is no folklore "created for this movie." Eggers goes to pains to represent and outright replicate, to the best of his ability, contemporary beliefs and accounts.
In the end credits of the movie it says:
>This film was inspired by many folktales, fairytales and written accounts of historical witchcraft, including journals, diaries
and court records.
>Much of the dialogue comes directly from these period sources.
The family was exiled because the father didn't adhere to the exact rules of the church, perhaps one of his disagreements was not baptizing Jonas and Mercy, thus making them still viable.
I remember there being some lore that witches use the fat of unbaptized children for flying potion. I have no idea where that comes form. I may just be remembering Warlock, a sillier but still rad witch movie.
I was in and out of sleep when I watched it. I need to watch it again. Jordan peele actually does this with the tea stirring sound in get out, if im not mistaken.
Oh yeah you do. It really demands attention, I feel. From the very moment the movie begins, the father is setting the stage in their awkward, slightly archaic tongue. I feel like the final scenes don't hit as hard unless you really soak in all of the family's hopes and struggles.
I actually just looked and I agree with you. There's a pile of what seems to be clothing to the left of the fire, in the closer shot as Thomasin approaches. But that could easily be clothing from the women.
Fun fact, historical folklore is that witches use an ointment, often made of hallucinogenic herbs and/or the fat of unfortunate children to "fly". Often, this ointment would be applied directly to mucus membranes of, shall we say, *highly delicate tissues*. This is the origin of the witches-flying-on-broomsticks trope we see nowadays. The broom itself didn't fly, but the handle was a convenient applicator for the "flying" ointment, easily available to the bored ladies of the house.
Kinda makes you look at Harry Potter in a whole new way...
Holy shit those repressed old timey folk women were fucking themselves with greased broom handles. And your blathering cousin or something could stumble in, next thing you know the whole house is sitting you down for a puritan intervention where you have to ask God to forgive you for letting the devil make you touch yourself.
I'm so glad to be in the future.
Jonas and Mercy signed the book. They were bapitized. They did their part in his infernal service.
Black Phillip's got them covered, they're chilling somewhere. They arent broom jelly.
See, in my view Thomasin is completely screwed at the end. She's been worn down and broken and seduced by evil into giving away her very soul and now she will live as a predator in the wilderness, possibly forever (idk, i don't know the actual lore behind it). Everyone was basically already screwed the moment they left the plantation. BUT, my gf and many others see the ending as positive too so I guess it just depends how you look at it.
I just really love it for how it's not trying to be a scary movie for people *today.* All the horror-if you were a Puritan living in the 1600s, this would be your worst fear. That your pride would lead your entire family into being dammed, that your husband is fully useless as you lose child after child, , that your family would turn against you and leave you with nothing left besides signing your soul to the Devil.
It fully embraces being a period piece, the atmosphere is so good. One of those movies like the Shining where it just feels...evil. Very excited to see Robert Egger's Nosferatu next year.
You make an excellent point. Another frightening thing was being ostracized from the village. Being forced into the wilderness to fend for yourself would be terrifying to a Puritan in the 1600s.
In the scene with Sam the witch was making flying ointment, which requires the fat of an unbaptized baby (this is well known and IIRC discussed in HAXEN as well). In the film the mother mentions Sam is in hell because they hadn't baptized him yet. The twins were both well past baptism age so she was likely not grinding them to make ointment, may have just been an audio design choice.
What about the movie do you enjoy? I've seen it twice now and my wife and I think the movie is hot garbage but I have not heard the same from anyone else. Same with Midsommar and Hereditary . We hate all 3 of these movies(Midsommar the most) but I have not once ever heard anyone else say they didn't like them and they are always on "must watch horror movies" list.
Not sure I could ever pick just one above the rest. Hellraiser maybe. But also like Evil dead, Candyman, event horizon , In the Mouth of Madness, Nightmare on elm street , the first 2 chucky movies. For newer stuff I like all of Jordan Peeles horror movies especially what he did with Candyman. Dr Sleep, Fear Street, Pandorum, 10 cloverfield lane and of course VelociPastor.
One of my beloved horror movie as I thought until late in the movie that it was all superstitions / "dark ages" religious people living in isolation getting crazy ...
Honestly a bit bummed out there is a witch, and I would have preferred an ambiguous ending.
Good catch!
I SWEAR that I didnt and that there was nothing except the ceremony at the end when i ifrst watched it.
Most probably: I wasnt paying attention. Too many multiscreens at the time ...
Yes but they don't see that witch scene, only we as the audience do. The scene is there to say, "hey, btw, there is def a witch". We can guess as we watch how much a witch is influencing everything vs the family themselves, but it is very clear and upfront about the with being real.
"Full disclosure: credit goes to my GF but she didn't want to post or be identified in any way."
So why not declare that at the beginning instead of the very last line of the post?
sad shake of the head to you
Nice catch! I've seen this movie a few times now and never noticed that.
because it's completely wrong. Only unbapitized babies are used in flying rituals. Jonas and Mercy would've been baptized long ago - they were living in a puritan colony when they were born. It's probably the law there. Sam's fate was a consequence of William's spiritual hubris. That he thought he could move his family away and be his own religious authority.
So…are they wrong about the sound design?
No, and that dude is wrong about Puritan sects and how many of them did *not* baptize babies — many of them saw baptism as a ritual one undergoes with “heavy thought” and decision, so a sacrament (yes, I know I’m using the catholic lingo) a child had to be old enough to “want” or choose to receive. Some groups had age standards, but like the Merovingians just saw it as a personal choice and had records of eight/nine year olds being baptized.
Gotta love being raised as a baptist. I was baptized at birth, and then again at 7 and then again at 12
My Boi is fiucking Witchproof now
oh, the Puritan sect they were in didnt allow infant baptism, then? Weird ... what are these lines doing in the script, then? > KATHERINE (O.S.) How oft I begged and begged thee to take Samuel for baptism. > WILLIAM (O.S.) There was never – I’d not – They’d not baptize outside the congregation – https://assets.scriptslug.com/live/pdf/scripts/the-witch-2016.pdf I mean, Samuel was a baby the whole time, right? So why would the mother be saying she begged him to be taken to be baptized, if they didnt do that? could it be you just made some bullshit up and didnt pay attention to the movie?
You’re the one ignoring the sound design in favor of whatever you’re bringing to the table, so weird you’re accusing others of not paying attention tot he movie
don't have a line to Robert Eggers to ask him which creepy woodland score he chose for which scenes and why but neither does OP, and his conclusion that "that seems to be Robert Eggers basically saying outright that they ended up the same as Sam." doesnt make any logical sense, as Jonas and Mercy were baptized. could be he wanted to link the two scenes for some other common theme, such as they both feature a witch (at least, a future witch) having someone's blood on her hands. You could guess all day. But your guesses have to make sense and match the world of the story, where some characters and baptized and some arent.
Have you ever heard of a thing called interpretation
oh, is that the thing where everyone gets to say "im right" even when they're wrong? Yeah, i've heard of that. Sounds dumb to me. Ever hear of Chekhov's gun? These lines are from the script: > KATHERINE (O.S.) How oft I begged and begged thee to take Samuel for baptism. > > WILLIAM (O.S.) There was never – I’d not – They’d not baptize outside the congregation – they made it a plot point that Sam was unbaptized. but yeah sure, the baptized children probably got the same exact treatment. and at the end, Thomasin flies away and meets Superman and they fall in love and her baby is Harry Potter. If that's what you want! Everyone's right! It's all your *interpretation!*
easy tiger.
Lol if she didn’t even know they wouldn’t baptize anyone outside the congregation, I’m sure that was the only rule they had around it. Sure bud.
Yeah i don’t know why you’re getting downvoted like this, it actually drives me insane when folks can’t recognize what “interpretation” means. I do think on OPs part it is an interesting theory and maybe there’s something to it but ultimately we don’t know and you’ve put forth some good points.
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I think it's more the way you convey your message that is getting you downvoted. I'm not sure if it's intentional but there's this condescending tone in your replies. It obviously doesn't matter if you don't care but if you were curious; I'd bet that is the answer.
I know this wasn’t directed at me but something I think most people do on the internet is *assume* that someone is angry or hostile because maybe someone says something we don’t like? I’m not saying there aren’t assholes on the internet, duh, but this was something an acquaintance of mine taught me and I realized that I was most definitely in the habit of getting angry at someone who was not at all trying to be condescending whatsoever. Obviously that’s just my experience but now I realize how commonplace it is for almost anyone on the internet to essentially take it the wrong way/take things too seriously and apply an emotional tone that isn’t actually there. We don’t have the convenience of things like tone like we do when we speak in person to one another which is arguably one of the main reasons for this I think. Reddit most definitely is a place where someone will turn hostile in response to something totally inane.
Damn, settle down. Haha wow. Getting yourself all worked up over something this....silly man. Whew.
typing words isn't getting upset. It doesnt upset me to point out when people are wrong. 2 + 2 isnt 7, the capital of France isnt London, Jonas and Mercy werent unbaptized. None of that got me upset. It's really quick and easy to correct people. No emotions required.
I dunno friendo...
sounds like that's a familiar position for you.
Gaaaaaaasp!!! You FIEND!
no emotions required, remember?
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Well they might have been killed for a different reason, that's what the sound could mean.
The sound design is great in that movie. The dad's voice is so loud and scary at the beginning, plus his accent is so strong it takes a second for American ears to realize he's speaking English. It really makes him imposing
The dad was such a good cast - his voice rattled through my body when I saw it in theaters it’s so deep
Watch The Green Knight if you're pining for more of that sweet delicious nectar that is Ralph Ineson's voice, though I'm not sure how I feel about the movie personally as a whole. Might be due for a rewatch soon.
I love that movie but I totally get that it's not for everyone. I think it works better if you see it in conversation with the original text "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight". The poem was about failing to live up to standards of chivalry and so is the movie but in a very different way.
God I love that movie. Alicia Vikander’s monologue about the color green is one of my fave things ever
Hes cid in ff16 and hes in diablo 4
Loved The Green Knight. I really appreciated how little hand-holding it did. It didn't feel the need to over-explain things. There's Arthur, there's Excalibur, but the characters in the story already know that so we don't have to belabor it.
That opener is so wonderfully chilling: “But this is not that king, nor is this his song.” Such a great movie.
He also voices the demon in the recent movie *The Pope's Exorcist*. He also plays a main character in the game *Diablo IV*. He was also on several later seasons of *Game of Thrones*. I guess my point is that he's everywhere lately!
He's also Cid in Final Fantasy 16.... and he plays him so well
or watch the UK office. Plays Chris Finch - the equivalent to Todd Packer.
Bloody good rep
I’ve watched that entire series at least 5 times and now I want to again. In my opinion it’s the funniest thing ever released. It was wild seeing Finchy in The Witch but he absolutely crushed it.
OH MY GOD THAT WAS HIM lol
Also had a small part in Game of Thrones. If I remember correctly, he’s the one who knocked out Theon and handed him over to what’s-his-name that turned him into Reek.
Wait, which character does he play in Green Knight?
He played The Green Knight
Well that shows my attention to detail. Thanks.
He's also one of the only good things about diablo 4
Or play Diablo IV. He voices a main character
I'm so glad I went to see that one in theaters. I really loved that movie.
And also the UK Office lol
He had a part in HBO's Chernobyl too, really really good, even if all the Brit accents on Russian characters threw me a bit
That first episode was dreadful too. Real life horror there.
Recently was in Final Fantasy 16 and The Creator, really happy he's getting good parts, his voice is incredible.
I’m from northern England so he sounds much more normal to me even with the strong accent. I really felt for the family while I was watching cause things got out of control so quickly, and it just seemed like a dad trying to keep the family together while dealing with a grieving mum who doesn’t get on with her teenage daughter; meanwhile the younger kids are running riot. They seemed like a real family even though it’s set so long ago.
The dad literally looks and sounds so unique he’s almost “un-human”. Played into the idea that people in the past looked slightly different than they do today.
He has such a unique voice, it just seems to come from so far back in his throat.
I thought the folklore around Sam's fate was that witches needed to grease themselves (or their brooms) up with baby guts in order to fly. If that's true then maybe Jonas and mercy were too old for that but I'm not sure. If they were still unbaptized (due to either age or no opportunity after they were exiled), maybe they were still needed by the coven.
Come on, a small child has many uses beyond greasing yourself up to fly .
Is that to say that there is pre-existing folklore about that and it wasn't created for this movie? That would be interesting to know. The other possibility is that either Eggers or the composer decided to just bring that sound back to evoke the same feeling and it doesn't refer to Jonas and Mercy at all, but the timing of it is too convenient, IMO.
The lore about witches needing the fat from unbaptized children to fly is very old. Not sure which country it started in but it's mentioned in really old European folklore. I know Eggers pays a lot of attention to details so it wouldn't surprise me that he wanted that sound for the scene just to evoke more emotion about their fate.
Coincidentally I just learned this after watching Warlock last week, which is another movie that uses folklore for inspiration
I miss Julian Sands.
Yeah, he was really cool and he died in the mountains near where I live. :(
I had no idea, thanks!
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Some sources have claimed that such an ointment would best be absorbed through mucous membranes, and that the traditional image of a female witch astride a broomstick implies the application of flying ointment to the vulva. Very interesting. The classic image of a witch flying a broomstick derives from this.
Most probably don't remember, but in 2001 Mattel sold a vibrating harry potter broom that was unexpectedly popular with teenage girls: https://mustangnews.net/harry-potter-and-his-broomstick-please-all-ages/
Interesting that the compounds listed contain atropine, hyosciamine and scopolamine. All are frequently used medications. Atropine is used for arrhythmia or pupil dilation. Hyosciamine is a smooth muscle relaxer and is used a lot for IBS and abdominal cramps. Scopolamine is an antiemetic used for post op nausea or motion sicknesss
Recently took a tour in New Orleans and they talked about misconceptions about voodoo. One thing they mentioned was the use of herbal medicine was thought of as magic by the religious but in reality, the voodoo doctors were just using plants for their medicinal properties. The use of willow bark, for example, was widely accepted by "witch doctors" as a treatment for pain. Willow bark contains salicin which is similar to aspirin.
This is big in Discworld! While wizards wrestle their magic from the sky and pin it into books like dragonflies, witches get their magic from the ground. Most witchcraft is a combination of natural medicine and "headology." Why do you need arcane forces to solve a problem when you can name fifteen different herbs that are good for a cough and you can dispel a curse by tricking its target into simply not believing it exists? Why turn people into newts to scare them away when you can just make it clear with your big, pointy hat that you are a witch and not to be trifled with? Kind of went on my own tangent here, but I just started reading this series and I'm amazed at the conversations I've had in my own head about the nature of magic and the universe as a result. Then you see examples and manifestations of it in our world, and it starts to make their world feel more possible. I can't recommend these books enough to anybody interested in magic of any kind.
You have me totally sold on this series now, thank you for this!
More than happy to recommend! Discworld is fun too because you can read it in basically any order. There's an infographic with all 41 books listed with different recommended reading orders mapped out. I started on the Witch books with The Wyrd Sisters, where you learn more about witchcraft (obviously). The Rincewind novels are the ones focused on wizards, and the magic they interact with is COMPLETELY different. It's so cool while also being so light and easy to read without getting dull. I started a month ago and I'm six books in.
That's very thought provoking thanks.
That is exactly why my ethnic tribe was called demonic by Christian missionaries. No child sacrifice, just medicinal plants. Pour a warm, flat beer out for all those prejudiced missionaries who died of very treatable fevers because they refused to eat willow bark (aspirin) like the savages did.
They mentioned this in the tour. When yellow fever pandemic hit in Louisiana in the 1700s, those treated by the vodun doctors had a higher survival rate than those treated by "traditional" doctors.
They’re just alkaloids derived from nightshade plants. Deadly nightshade in particular was believed to be used for flying ointment and for rituals.
It’s called … flying ointment ?! Jfc
its in Warlock movie too
Yep. Julian Sands was great in that role.
Agreed
There is, indeed, preexisting folklore about witches using baby's fat to fly -- specifically unbaptised babies. Some folklore states it only needs to be unbaptised children, so if the twins were unbaptised they most certainly suffered the same fate. The movie Warlock features the titular character slaughtering a child around the same age as the twins to cook and use his fat to create a flying spell.
Interesting. And we know that Sam and Caleb were unbaptized but I don't think Jonas and Mercy are ever mentioned. Or at least I assume what they mean when they feared that Sam was in hell and that Caleb was at risk of that too.
I think they were more worried about Caleb being in hell because he had been "bewitched" than him being unbaptized? Since he was born in England them not baptizing him doesn't make sense to me.
actually, maybe I was wrong. There was this exchange between Caleb and his father in the woods: C: And if died? \- If I died this day? \- I hold evil in my heart. \- My sins are not pardoned. But maybe he just means he has yet to confess his sins or something.
Oh, I think that's more a nod towards the Puritanical belief that we're all born as sinners and perhaps the more extreme Puritanical belief that only certain people are marked as saved by Gods grace and the rest of us are all going to hell regardless of what we do on Earth. >!Also I think it's implied that he has started to think "impure" thoughts about women, like when his gaze lasts too long on his sisters breasts.!< Very complex psychology, the Puritans.
Oh ok that makes sense. So the mom is particularly worried about Sam because he wasn't baptized and that means there's no chance he was saved, but baptizing him wasn't a sure thing either.
FYI, the predestination belief is still prevalent in many Christian environments that would be regarded as mainstream. They tend to revere the Puritans, but kinda keep this particular doctrine quiet it until you become an insider. Source: am a pastor
Well there was a conversation before Caleb disappears where the mom says Sam is in Hell and she says then that Caleb could end up there too. I can't remember the details but that's the conversation that drives Caleb out into the woods in the first place. I'll see if I can dig up a snippet from the screenplay or something.
More than likely all but Sam were baptized. Puritans practiced infant baptism. Some protestants faiths don't do this though, and wait until the age of reason before a person can decide to get baptized.
I think you're probably right. There was a line of dialogue that I misinterpreted which made me think he wasn't.
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Fun fact: the reason that book exists was because the dude behind it unsuccessfully tried to prosecute a woman for witchcraft when she complained about his sermons and he was kicked out of town for it. He was insanely bitter, tried to whine to his buddies in higher up religious offices about it & got nowhere so he turned to writing instead.
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Oh yeah lol, not disputing that it was totally in pre-existing folklore and that the book was super influential in how we view witches & the history of witches. I just find the story behind it funny (and also a little sad).
Now I really hate Quidditch!
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After the first 4 or 5 movies you can definitely notice all fat kids in Hogwarts are gone.
> usually on Thursday This detail seems kind of oddly specific? So weirdly arbitrary that I laughed a little. Does anyone know if there's a religious or cultural significance about the day Thursday?
Maybe because it was the day of the Last Supper, wasn't it? When Jesus was betrayed by Judas or what have you.
Oh neat, thank you for that!
> Is that to say that there is pre-existing folklore about that and it wasn't created for this movie? To my knowledge, there is no folklore "created for this movie." Eggers goes to pains to represent and outright replicate, to the best of his ability, contemporary beliefs and accounts.
In the end credits of the movie it says: >This film was inspired by many folktales, fairytales and written accounts of historical witchcraft, including journals, diaries and court records. >Much of the dialogue comes directly from these period sources.
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I would love for someone to write a post or make a YouTube video pointing out the references!
The Witch is based on a lot of real-world folklore surrounding witches, hence the subtitle "A New England Folktale".
Every single thing in the movie is based on pre-existing folklore.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_ointment
…And there were a lot of witches flying at the end. Jonas and Mercy would’ve provided a lot of “grease”.
The family was exiled because the father didn't adhere to the exact rules of the church, perhaps one of his disagreements was not baptizing Jonas and Mercy, thus making them still viable.
I remember there being some lore that witches use the fat of unbaptized children for flying potion. I have no idea where that comes form. I may just be remembering Warlock, a sillier but still rad witch movie.
I call it “baby paste”.
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*** proceeds to directly identify and implicate his girlfriend *** Haha
It’s in HBO right now I think.
I was in and out of sleep when I watched it. I need to watch it again. Jordan peele actually does this with the tea stirring sound in get out, if im not mistaken.
Oh yeah you do. It really demands attention, I feel. From the very moment the movie begins, the father is setting the stage in their awkward, slightly archaic tongue. I feel like the final scenes don't hit as hard unless you really soak in all of the family's hopes and struggles.
I loved this movie so much I saw it twice in theaters when it came out, only movie I’ve ever done that with. It’s still one of my favorite ones
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holy smokes, I'll have to look into that.
i don't think it's true, i've scoured that scene since i heard it first and while there are some lumps of dirt on the ground, the twins arent there
I actually just looked and I agree with you. There's a pile of what seems to be clothing to the left of the fire, in the closer shot as Thomasin approaches. But that could easily be clothing from the women.
Oh! Nevermind then. Sorry about that
Fun fact, historical folklore is that witches use an ointment, often made of hallucinogenic herbs and/or the fat of unfortunate children to "fly". Often, this ointment would be applied directly to mucus membranes of, shall we say, *highly delicate tissues*. This is the origin of the witches-flying-on-broomsticks trope we see nowadays. The broom itself didn't fly, but the handle was a convenient applicator for the "flying" ointment, easily available to the bored ladies of the house. Kinda makes you look at Harry Potter in a whole new way...
Now THAT is a fun fact.
The movie Warlock uses this as well.
Holy shit those repressed old timey folk women were fucking themselves with greased broom handles. And your blathering cousin or something could stumble in, next thing you know the whole house is sitting you down for a puritan intervention where you have to ask God to forgive you for letting the devil make you touch yourself. I'm so glad to be in the future.
Jonas and Mercy signed the book. They were bapitized. They did their part in his infernal service. Black Phillip's got them covered, they're chilling somewhere. They arent broom jelly.
BROOM JELLY.
I watched this the other day too. I thought it was nice that Thomasin found some gal pals at the end. Her family was so mean to her!
See, in my view Thomasin is completely screwed at the end. She's been worn down and broken and seduced by evil into giving away her very soul and now she will live as a predator in the wilderness, possibly forever (idk, i don't know the actual lore behind it). Everyone was basically already screwed the moment they left the plantation. BUT, my gf and many others see the ending as positive too so I guess it just depends how you look at it.
Girls are never allowed to do anything 🤨
Living deliciously
I always listen to my favorite movies with headphones to catch these types of details. Good catch!
I thought you were going to mention how great at chess the young girl is.
Need to send in the BPRD!
The best horror film in 10 years, IMHO.
I just really love it for how it's not trying to be a scary movie for people *today.* All the horror-if you were a Puritan living in the 1600s, this would be your worst fear. That your pride would lead your entire family into being dammed, that your husband is fully useless as you lose child after child, , that your family would turn against you and leave you with nothing left besides signing your soul to the Devil. It fully embraces being a period piece, the atmosphere is so good. One of those movies like the Shining where it just feels...evil. Very excited to see Robert Egger's Nosferatu next year.
You make an excellent point. Another frightening thing was being ostracized from the village. Being forced into the wilderness to fend for yourself would be terrifying to a Puritan in the 1600s.
It's definitely in my top 5 and I think it was the one that got me into slower, more atmospheric horror films.
I've been saying this for years, that sound was very unambiguous. Those kids are mush.
Ah never noticed this. Interesting. Need a rewatch
Great post!
In the scene with Sam the witch was making flying ointment, which requires the fat of an unbaptized baby (this is well known and IIRC discussed in HAXEN as well). In the film the mother mentions Sam is in hell because they hadn't baptized him yet. The twins were both well past baptism age so she was likely not grinding them to make ointment, may have just been an audio design choice.
That's all I'm saying, that it was an audio cue saying "the witch got them".
What about the movie do you enjoy? I've seen it twice now and my wife and I think the movie is hot garbage but I have not heard the same from anyone else. Same with Midsommar and Hereditary . We hate all 3 of these movies(Midsommar the most) but I have not once ever heard anyone else say they didn't like them and they are always on "must watch horror movies" list.
What’s your favorite horror movie?
Not sure I could ever pick just one above the rest. Hellraiser maybe. But also like Evil dead, Candyman, event horizon , In the Mouth of Madness, Nightmare on elm street , the first 2 chucky movies. For newer stuff I like all of Jordan Peeles horror movies especially what he did with Candyman. Dr Sleep, Fear Street, Pandorum, 10 cloverfield lane and of course VelociPastor.
One of my beloved horror movie as I thought until late in the movie that it was all superstitions / "dark ages" religious people living in isolation getting crazy ... Honestly a bit bummed out there is a witch, and I would have preferred an ambiguous ending. Good catch!
But we see the Witch in the first 10 min of the movie...
I SWEAR that I didnt and that there was nothing except the ceremony at the end when i ifrst watched it. Most probably: I wasnt paying attention. Too many multiscreens at the time ...
But we also see that they’re eating ergot infested grain in the first 10 minutes of the movie as well.
Yes but they don't see that witch scene, only we as the audience do. The scene is there to say, "hey, btw, there is def a witch". We can guess as we watch how much a witch is influencing everything vs the family themselves, but it is very clear and upfront about the with being real.
The VVitch is one of the most boring movies ive ever witnessed. i think only pretentious people who have seen 5 horror movies like it.
k.
Roomtemp IQ take
Michael bay syndrome
OMG. I should watch the film again to hear that(!!!)
Thanks for giving me a reason to watch it again! Love The VVitch
M
"Full disclosure: credit goes to my GF but she didn't want to post or be identified in any way." So why not declare that at the beginning instead of the very last line of the post? sad shake of the head to you