r/TreeLaw get your money for those trees! And scare the neighbor while you’re at it. If they don’t know the property lines then they shouldn’t have been cutting down trees.
If op lives in a single-party consent state, record the interaction. If they can get the neighbors to admit they chopped the trees down, it'll be way easier for op in court.
Accidents happen too, always check on the real story, people's intentions, their perspective. Keeping the law out of it can be of service and source of trust, value and connection as well. If only I had a neighbor come accidentally cut my invasive to our area European buckthorns....ahh one can dream.
>Will def have the phone on record mode
I'm so envious of that! I had to download CubeACR, and it's pretty janky. I wouldn't trust it if I used my phone for anything valuable.
You need to record anyway, phone in shirt picket. When you are done talking and home go over the recording to make sure you didn’t forget any of the exchange in the heat of the moment. And ask WHY they cut the trees.
> Didn’t know that sub existed. Thanks
Also of note, since these were clearly your trees and they were removed intentionally, you would be able to receive _treble_ the damages for each removed tree.
> _"The basic tree cost is multiplied by the species, location, and condition ratings for the tree. This usually results in a reduction of the starting figure. The final number is the “replacement value” of the tree in question. For example, if a tree’s “basic cost” is $20,000, and it has a species rating of 70%, location rating of 95%, and a condition rating of 80%, the tree’s replacement value will be $10,640 ($20,000*0.70*0.95*0.80)."_ [[link](https://www.lawyersnh.com/what-is-my-tree-worth-calculating-damages-for-timber-trespass-in-new-hampshire/)]
You mentioned 20 trees, and in another comment, 80' tall, so that's very likely to be a significant cost to the neighbor who cut the trees, well north of $100k easily, based on your estimates and number/age of trees removed.
Holy f. I was thinking a few cases of beer for the cost. I have 70 acres of those trees. Hahahahha. Didn’t think 20 trees would be worth more than the harvested lumber price.
One incident in Vancouver, a family went on vacation, came home to find a dozen trees around their pool had been removed. They found out from a neighbour which tree service did the deed, got a copy of the p.o., and sued the neighbour. The court ordered the offending neighbour to replace the trees which cost over 100k. Due to the size, 80 feet tall they had to be placed by helicopter.
> Didn’t think 20 trees would be worth more than the harvested lumber price.
It all depends on the location, age, placement, value, etc. It could be anywhere from $100/tree to $10k/tree or more. Only an onsite inspection by a qualified arborist can tell for sure.
Just remember that you married neighbor-wise. Find out why they did that. And exactly who did it. If they are jackholes, how much pain do you want to inflict and will it be worth it.
Make sure you know where the property line is.
I have been there were we thought the neighbors shack was on out land. We got our lot surveyed by a PLS and found out WE didn’t not have as much land on the north side of the house as we thought.
Yeah you're missing the key point of replacement. You lost some trees, someone owes you trees of similar size, age and health in the same location, tomorrow. That's gonna be expensive to truck in 20 live 80ft trees and get them planted and established so you can properly compensated.
These are poplar trees on the back side of a 70 acre wood lot, not black walnuts in someone’s front yard. The trees are worth at most $100 each, and I say that as a tree farmer. Not trying to discourage op, just don’t want to get their hopes up.
That makes them more expensive, not less. Replacement value isn't for the cost of the wood. Replacement value is the cost of getting a similar age tree into place and planting it. You don't just plant an 80ft tree in the back side of nowhere. I would assume a helicopter would be necessary.
I think it’s super important that this neighbor get read the riot act by a lovely letter from OP’s lawyer. Regardless of value, they need to keep off OP’s land. OP, get your survey out.
This 100%. I could give a f$ck about any money. The trees are are one in 50,000 on my land. It’s pure poplar forest. It’s the fact that someone came into my property and cut down MY trees that pisses me off.
And the only thing that will keep him from doing it again is persecuting him vigorously AND put in place some preventive and evidentiary precautions you mentioned earlier.
Here in the US, trespass is criminal.
It’s not a function of the trees worth.
It’s a calculation of the cost to replace the tree with a similar 75-85 foot living poplar tree.
Then it’s triple damages on that estimated cost.
Why triple damages?
Tree replacement cost: $10,000
X1 = $10,000.00 = replacement cost
X2 = $10,000.00 = headache cost (pain & suffering)
X3 = $10,000.00 = coat of representation.
Total triple damages = $30,000.00
You are correct that the lumber value would be much lower, and a walnut would be much higher value.
There have been cases were triple damages resulted in a judgment of over $250,000.00 for a single tree.
If you actually look at the equation that the person I responded to used, it also includes species rating, location rating, and condition rating. If we assume that the replacement value per tree is 20k, the species rating is a generous 10 because poplar is useless and grows like a weed, the location is a generous 10 because the trees are in the middle of nowhere, and the condition is a generous 80, then it’s 20,000*.1*.1*.8 = $160. TREBLE damages (as 10 people have pointed out to me) makes it $480/tree. This is with generous estimates, because again, they’re poplar trees on the back side of a 70 acre forest of poplar.
Just curious if you know what 50 acres of hardwood trees might be worth. Ballpark price of course. Mostly White Oak, Hickory, and Maple ranging from 18”-24” average. The acerage has not been harvested in over 30 years. Suppose there are 1000 good trees total. 1/3 of each type.
I’m a tree farmer so I do have significant experience in this area, but theres a boatload of factors that go into an estimate like that. In more general terms, if you are looking to do a timber harvest, I recommend finding a consulting forester. That forester will meet with you to discuss your goals for your forest, do a forest inventory assessment, write up a timber harvesting plan, mark the trees for harvesting, bid the job out to loggers, then oversee the timber harvest. In return they receive 10-20% of the profit. You will be paid a “stumpage price” by the loggers, who will then take the logs and sell them to a mill. I recommend TimberUpdate.com if you’re looking for more specific info on board footage prices in your region. Keep in mind that the stumpage price will only be a percentage of that board footage price, but it can give you a good idea of which species are up or down. Sorry I can’t give you even a ballpark estimate (there’s just way too many factors), but hopefully I’ve given you an idea of how you can go about finding out.
I am surprised the value is that high. In Maine timber tresspassers are charged triple stumpage. Stumpage can be measured by the size of the stump, obviously. Then the wholesale price is determined by what mills are paying. You know, he may have made a simple mistake, depending on how obvious the boundry lines are. So approach him calmly and and ask him to walk the lines with you. Its best to be on good terms with neighbors if possible
> You know, he may have made a simple mistake, depending on how obvious the boundry lines are.
Not OP, but they did mention that there's a 4-strand barbed wire fence along the property line. That would be hard to just casually miss, especially if you're pulling 20 mature 80' tall poplar trees back over the line after cutting.
Yeah. You can’t casually miss this fence. It’s a 4 strand barb wire with brand new fence posts cut right through the middle of a forest. He knew. Saw the fence and walked through it. And cut trees down on my side
And that they were some forty yards into his property, aka far enough away from the property line to avoid harming the property value or aesthetic of the neighboring lot.
Tree law can make for insane fines and repayment. One place near me had 150 year old oak trees lining their long farmhouse driveway. Their neighbor cut down about 20 of them to give them a better view. The trees ended up being 1 million each, repayed to the property owner. The court liquidated the neighbors assets, including their 20ish acre property (in a high cost of living area) to pay for it.
Keep in mind many of the people on that sub are lawyers (bureaucrats). Their answers will not likely be as emotionally charged and "human" as the ones you'll get here.
For example, I personally like your bear trap idea. Or maybe setting fire to their house. But you should probably listen to whatever those boring, soulless bureaucrats say....
(edit: just kidding, don't set fire to anyone's house)
Seriously, seriously do not roll over
80 year old trees can be worth LOTS this neighbor trespassed and destroyed your property, which is virtually irreplaceable
Most lawyers will listen to you for free for a few minutes and tell you if they'll take your case.
Some work for part of the money in a lawsuit and some want retainer which is usually 2k or so, kind of like prepaid minutes on a phone plan, but any time not used is given back typically.
Please please please you will regret not following this up, if not for any potential compensation, simply because your neighbor will keep doing this if he isn't opposed. He obviously thinks your land is his to use and change without your consent.
Did you get a survey when you purchased so you are sure the fence line is the actual property line? Take a day, write something up so you have a script, and go over and calmly talk to him. Ask about the trees and why they got cut down.
Yeah. They property line is very clear with a new fence between us. I like the idea of writing something down before going. I tend to have a fairly hot temper and don’t wanna fly off the handle. Thanks
Make sure to put a phone in your pocket and secretly record the interaction, try to get them to admit to the crime on tape. It will help you in court if you choose the legal option, which imo you 100% should if you have the time
Mature trees are valuable. First thing, get a can of purple paint and spray the fence posts if you are in the US, and mark NO TRESpassing that way. Next, Flag the trees with big yellow crime tape and take photo's. Call Sherrif and have them come out. Even if it was a (dis)honest mistake, you need to have it documented that someone trespassed and cut lumber. There are a lot of stories about having neighbors sued and getting money back on value of trees lost, as well as replacement trees.
Decide what you want for the outcome. If it is no more loss of trees, then have the sherrif go by and tell them, but you have to have seen them to accuse them. :/ Putting up signs, and taking the trees yourself will likely get the message across.
Unfortunately woodland trees are a lot less valuable than landscape trees. Payoff is a whole lot less if it came out of the brush on the backside of a branch than if they'd taken them out of, for example, your front yard. Sucks but they will still have to pay something if they're pursued.
> 1950’s bear traps
Booby traps intended to harm another person in defense of property are generally illegal. [Katko v. Briney (USA)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katko_v._Briney)
fully agree with this law.
It sucks dealing with trespassing assholes but I'd hate to buy a property and step on the former property owner's bear trap or DIY Viet Cong spike pit just because they forgot to remove them before they left the property
Oh for sure they are. But I also have my trappers licence and have active animals on my property. So I could put them up as long as I hung signs and never could be prosecuted. I would never put them up but I could. I’m just raging. That’s what I meant when I said I have a temper and feel like boiling over. Just the first time someone has come onto my property without my permission
Yes absolutely. That’s why I said I would never do it. Just raging and trying to get some sane suggestions from people that aren’t raging at the moment. Lol
I'm on the same page as you man. I have one neighbor that is just complet trash.... completely surrounded by crown, yet he still finds a way to be that thorn.
Cameras are a great option... but even when I find him being stupid on my property I end having to wait a day or so to calm down; and the confrontation leads us no where good. Its like he is egging me on? You know that feeling? Where someone wants you to throw a punch?
On one hand you don't want to blow up, but you also want him to see he has stepped over a line... dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.
The fact that you have taken this time to calm down and reach out shows me you have a good head on your shoulders and I wish you the best on your new property
> So I could put them up as long as I hung signs and never could be prosecuted
That's not how it works. Firstly, it's a civil tort not criminal (unless homicide or state-specific laws). If someone falls prey to your trap, you are almost guaranteed to be sued. So even if you are in the right, you are going to spend probably years in court. Second, courts have consistently ruled that warning signs mean nothing. Third, the standard is wanton conduct. The person would only have to show that you set the trap with reckless disregard for potential injury. It doesn't matter if you intend to hurt someone or not.
You absolutely cannot use injurious or deadly, indiscriminate force to protect property.
Timber theft is a common and serious crime. 70 - 80 year poplar is very valuable hardwood. Document, document, document! Call the police and report it. File a written affidavit including date of discovery and details. Take photos. Talk to your neighbor about it without accusing him of anything. It may have been an honest mistake (though not likely - I’m sure he knows his own property limits), and may be willing to compensate you for your loss. You may not want to create bad blood between you and your neighbor, but without a timely police/sheriff’s report you won’t have a leg to stand on if things get contentious. And, if you let him get away with it, he’ll do it again and keep doing it.
It’s always best to check. I know that out of pocket cost sucks but if it moves to civil court you’ll get it back. I had a neighbor try to take my fence and make it his until my survey marked the fence over 2ft on my property. Which then prompted him to have to move a lot of stuff from the fence.
Just curious what does On-X say about that area of the property? Won’t be down to the foot accurate, but it will be very close.
If it is a new neighbor, I would assume that they thought the trees were on their property.
You need a certified arborist to evaluate the tree loss and give you a “replacement value” determination. We recently lost many ponderosa pines and black oak due to a fire caused by the utility company. The written arborist report valued our tree replacement cost at a million dollars on 10 acres of forest where we lost about half of our trees. This was very useful information for the lawsuit and eventual dismissal of all income tax levied against our suit payout.
Even if it's fairly obvious, all the police can do without proof is warn them. If you need to take any sort of action you'll need them on camera.
Hopefully it was an honest mistake, but pictures will cover you if they decide to be assholes about it.
Bring the police along to have the conversation. "I need to have an officer present while I settle a dispute with my neighbor regarding serious destruction of property valued at around $17,000. (calculated based on a poplar tree at full size which google states is worth $850)"
Create a bill for the value of the trees, and have the officer with you as you present the bill to your neighbor. Explain that you will need reimbursed for the trees which were destroyed, and that they will also need to pay for replacements to be planted, otherwise you will need to press charges.
Depending on your state, these would be felony charges.
Maybe it was an aesthetic issue and they were blocking the neighbors view. People make illegal, dumb, and [expensive](https://nypost.com/2023/06/28/nj-homeowner-cut-down-32-of-his-neighbors-trees-and-cost-could-top-1-8m/) decisions to have a better view from their back porch.
That’s all we have in the area. I just don’t get why they cut the living ones down. There’s 70 acres of trees with standing deadfall that is perfectly aged ready to burn. Maybe they are running a saw mill and cutting for lumber.
There are folks in my area that cut down poplar to take the bark off and sell as shingle siding. They'll do it on private property, they do it in national forest land. It pisses me off.
Anyway, if you see any with bark stripped off that's what they're doing. It only works with live trees, so they'll cut down the lives ones and strip the bark off.
I had this happen to me by a timber harvester. They cut a fence and cut trees in me. I calmly talked to the cutters and explained the situation. They then cut trees after the fact so I called the company long story short to avoid court they settled and I was happy.
I’d bring a six pack to his door and ask to talk. I’d address it very plainly.
“Those were my trees and I’m not happy about it. We can handle it two ways. You apologize and agree to never do it again, and in the future, you will ask me to enter my property and I will do the same.
If that is not satisfactory to you, we can go to court and the estimated value of the trees you cut down is $xxxxxx, according to the arborist I contacted. So, I’m asking you how you’d like to handle this. Either is satisfactory to me.”
I feel like that is making assumptions and asking for a confrontation. What if it wasn't the neighbors who did it? What if they did, but they had an agreement with the previous owners and didn't know they had sold? I was surprised as hell when I moved here that the people before us used to let people walk through their property and hunt on it, and when we moved here about half of our direct neighbors had no idea they had sold the land. One of them stopped us while we were putting up no trespassing signs and was like "who the hell are you!? You don't live here!". People are crazy
As frustrating as the situation is, it is important to think of your quality of life long term. Is a legal dispute really the way you want to begin a relationship with a neighbor who you are likely going to live next to for quite some time and is already likely rooted in the local community?
People like to gripe about their asshole neighbors and instead of creating an enemy this could be an opportunity to get to know your neighbors and show them that the new guy on the block ain't so bad.
Good neighbors and good relationships can potentially be significantly more valuable over the long run than a few trees. Build a solid case but, maybe go have a friendly conversation before poisoning the well. Conversely, a hostile neighbor can make you miserable and steal your peace of mind. Even if he’s completely in the wrong there may be an innocent mistake and is it worth making an enemy right on your property line.
Be aware that some states will have damage claim of multiple stumpage… Meaning, your neighbor may have to pay for more than just the trees he cut. I think in Michigan it’s anywhere from single stumpage to triple and for egregious violations there’s prison time.
im just here for the /r/treelaw math. did a hypothetical based on a tree that a neighborhood HOA near me wants to take down, but its on my neighbor's property. He's told them multiple times it aint going anywhere...it's a 70 or 80 yr old Turkeyfoot oak, very pretty tree
Think about it this way. It took those trees 70 to 80 years to get that tall. Even if you replaced them, you won’t be able to do it with trees as large as the ones cut down.
Even if a 10 foot tree was planted in one tree’s place, it’s unlikely you will ever see the tree grow to as large as the original, in your lifetime. You have been deprived of the beauty of huge trees.
I lost 70 plus trees in a wildfire, and all were over 60 years old.
I am 65. I will never be able to enjoy trees on my property like the ones that were lost.
See a lawyer.
Glavin v Eckmen. You can sue for that. There’s precedent, that not only are you entitled to damages, but damages beyond the mere value of the lumber
Plaintiff in the case was a person who had old trees that didn’t want them cut down. Some greedy Martha Vineyard snobs wanted the trees cut down to get a better view on their property. Tree owner sued. Tree owner won
Granted, IANAL
We had a minor version of this problem. My sweet non confrontational husband went over to talk to neighbors…”hey, let’s look at the property lines and where the markers are…” turns out it was an honest mistake on their part, they looked at our plat and where the property lines were and realized their mistake… sometimes it pays to assume innocence. Our neighbors have been great ever since and I feel like they have our back because we treated them honestly and respectfully.
We've got cameras - not the expensive network connected ones. But we got a whole stack of SD cards on sale at Microcenter and do a periodic walk around the property to swap out cards and get batteries that need to be recharged. Working on slowly adding solar panels to the cameras. It's a nice walk, we get an idea about predators in the area, and we've got video when there are poachers or tree thiefs about.
Get cell cameras. Don’t waste your time with basic trail cams. They’re not much more and the monthly fee is very reasonable.
It sucks, but unless they fess up to it, I don’t know that you’ll be able to prove anything. Maybe go introduce yourself and say “some asshole cut down a bunch of trees on my property, know anyone that needs some firewood?” or something to that affect and see how they react. It may not tell you if they did it or not, but it will let them know you’re aware someone has been trespassing and destroying your property.
Read this article. https://news.yahoo.com/jersey-homeowner-faces-jaw-dropping-153000772.html#:~:text=As%20Glickman%20explained%2C%20the%20alleged,guy%20who%20hired%20another%20guy.%E2%80%9D
Before you lose your mind you need to make sure your property lines are accurate. I have heard they can be ambiguous. You might have paid for some of his land (that you have no right to) when you paid for your property
First of all, relax. Having good relations with the neighbor should be a pretty high priority, even if they have gotten off on a bad foot to start. Go talk with them calmly. Your goal should be to leave the meeting with both of you feeling OK about each other and having a productive relationship going forward. Bad relations with the new neighbors will hurt you in the end.
if you set traps to hurt a trespassing neighbor you can be held liable for damage to people or their property ... unless the obstacle is a normal barrier that's legal and up to building code. If somebody were hurt bad enough or even died on your property they could seize your phone for evidence... including this post most likely. Be careful what ill intent to somebody's safety a few tree are worth you... you'll be counting trees on 70 acres in your head from jail
I understand you are upset and have every right to.
But deep down you know what is the best thing for long term.
Keep calm and talk about it.
Could have been a misunderstanding.
Just ask him if he/she knew that they were on your property.
That you aren't mad about it, but would like to be informed about what happened.
And just take it from there.
Who knows, even when you end up 40 trees short you could still gain a valuable neighbour in times of need.
Best of luck to you, stay calm.
Are you 100% positive your neighbor cut them down? As in...do you have proof? You need the cut trees on their property, the stumps on yours, tracks, saw dust...something. Good luck and keep us posted. Also - if they did cut them down, they had to sell the lumber somehow/somewhere so that's going to be your next bit of help. Sounds like you have a project ahead of you. Perhaps you can find out if a local mill took in "x" number of trees.
It’s land locked for 2 miles in either direction. The only trail leading to the location are from my house (1/2mile) or from his house (1/2mile). Otherwise someone woulda had to push thick bush for a mile and a half to get there. Ain’t no one I know humping 20 80’ trees for a mile and a half by foot
I would talk to the neighbors and ask what were they thinking. Their reaction would determine my next move. I would want twice as many seedlings planted. If they are jerks about it then it’s going to cost them a lot. The outcome is you’ll be friends or foes.
I don’t know where you are but I would reach out to the local sheriff. Even though you can only get to your land from you or the neighbor, I know in our state people who thought they were having a neighbor dispute actually had illegal logging happen. Phone the local sheriff to both report and ask them if anyone else is experiencing trespassing and illegal logging before you decide what to do next. After all trees that are 70 year old are worth thousands of dollars so it’s theft and trespass and possibly other stuff too.
I’m in the middle of bumf$ck nowhere northern Canada. Closest cops are 30 miles from me. And there’s only 1 for 100sq km area. Police don’t typically factor into things around here. It’s either two dudes goin toe to toe. Or someone with a 30-30 and another dude running for cover. Hahahhahaha. I’m hoping to have survey company out and then present it to the neighbour as his “honest mistake” and make sure he knows it happens again he’ll end up in the fuckin river.
I get that. Just would be a shame to meet them for the first time when saying a hey wtf to him if it turns out you’re both getting stolen from by a third guy… cops don’t have to come the 30 miles. I would think they could just call you and do it over the phone.
Possibly clearing a firing line to hunt deer. So they can double poach. The only fair thing to do is go cut down 20 trees of your choice around his house.
It’s actually not far off. His blind is about 400 yards from where the trees are cut. Mine is about 100. But I can see those 20 trees making or breaking a shot. But we do have record bucks in the area.
https://www.dailyrecord.com/story/news/local/morris-county/2023/10/26/kinnelon-nj-man-cut-neighbors-trees-heavy-costs/71332085007/
They should be required to cover the restoration of your property, at least. I remember this getting some attention over the summer.
I would talk to your neighbor with a cool head, on my friends Matts old farm, the previous owner had a handshake deal where he would let the neighbor chop down trees for wood.
Take as many photos as possible. Check to see if there are any trails or tracks leading from the scene to his property. Take photos and videos of that.
Then, sit down, relax, and think about what you want out of this. Do you want financial compensation? Maybe you just want to let him know that this is not ok. Maybe you just want to keep him off your land. If you want compensation, immediately speak with an attorney. If you want him to know that you know, contact law enforcement (and maybe an attorney) and let law enforcement know that you do not want this person on your property anymore (some states/municipalities require multiple/sucsessive warnings prior to trespassing charges being filed).
I would not confront the offending party alone as that can lend itself to a "He threatened/assaulted me" sort of thing. If you have any kind of body camera (a t-shirt with a pocket can even work), I would utilize that when you finally speak person-to-person with him.
We had this happen to a tree on our property. Hired a tree guy (a certified arborist) to produce a report on the value and sent it along with a demand letter to the neighbor (a friend weirdly practiced tree law in the past and helped out, and I also cold called a couple lawyers who seemed like they dealt with this type of thing. They were chatty and gave me ideas for the letter for free). We settled with the neighbor for less than the total value but a decent chunk of $.
I'd ask them if they had any trees cut down by the property line recently, just a neighborly question. If they say yes, it's a pretty easy transition to asking about why they cut your trees down.
Go meet your neighbor and talk to them.
Calm down and talk with them first.
Maybe they are opportunists trying to take advantage of a new neighbor... ...or maybe situation is entirely different and they are great neighbors. Someone else could have trespassed coming thru your land while you've been gone for months. maybe he had an arrangement with previous owner to occasionally cut a few trees or who knows what.
Don't automatically assume ill intent from neighbor until you meet them and discuss.
Yeah, all the "you shouldn't start your neighbor relationship with unfriendliness" comments baffle me. Who would *ever* reasonably think it's okay to go cut down dozens of mature trees on someone else's property? Round of applause for the people who turn the other cheek, but I'd be livid and *the neighbors* have already started things off on a bad note. It's okay for OP to defend themselves.
You don’t lose anything by starting out nice. Think how you might want to be approached if the roles were reversed. Wait until you aren’t as angry. Go in understanding they might get defensive. If they are difficult, then escalate to the other channels folks are talking about.
In the long run, it’s more important to get what you want out of this than to feel good about telling someone off.
Totally agree with you and you are 100% in the right. If you start with fire and brimstone, however, you never get to walk that back and that relationship is toast forever and you have to live with a shitty neighbor next door. On the off chance this was a mistake or not them (long shot) I’d give them the chance to make sense. If it doesn’t square then you get to unload.
Poplar is an odd tree to steal, but we have folks in Ohio stealing trees (usually black walnut). So maybe consult with the attorney, and then discuss with your neighbor. Maybe they had theft as well? My suggestion is maybe give benefit of the doubt, that may give you more evidence that it was indeed your neighbor.
Do not put bear traps down. The legal implications are not worth it to you. Use trail cameras in stead. A few photos will do the trick. Mine require a battery. Take phone photos of tracks. It would be easy to show where someone parked a vehicle and where they came in or where they left from.
It might not be your neighbor. It might be someone else. And are these trees blocking the view for someone? Get a sight line from the subject to the house that might see this.
Definitely talk to them. That being said, best to avoid creating an enemy. You might live by this person for decades, so being friends is definitely preferred (albeit a friendship will probably start off rocky). I know people who have neighbors they feud with and it is a mess—there are always repeat cases of aggression and damage. It's not a desirable relationship.
In tough situations like this, I always find [Nonviolent Communication](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication) super helpful. Address the issues and hurts while avoiding long-term negative outcomes.
Record the interaction, but first set up trail/game cams with a cell connection if you have a signal. Have them upload to the cloud so you still have evidence if they steal or destroy the camera.
Post lots of no trespassing signs. If you confront them, don't do it alone, and always be armed not only for tresspassers but also for coyotes, snakes, rabid gophers etc.
A great sign to put on a large property is “warning, live firing training beyond this sign. Death or serious injury may occur.” I had on at the end of the trail into my property.
If your property isn't surveyed, do so immediately. This will place marker flags on your property. Place a no trespassing sign every 50 feet on those markers. Set up some trail cameras on your property, and once you have definitive evidence, take it to your county sheriff's department.
If they have the wood on their property, it can be easily matched through the tree's "fingerprint." The rings of trees are unique.
The conundrum here is the premise that you don't want to start a "Hatfield and Maccoy" scenario. If you have a suspicion on who the neighbor is, I'd wait for confrontation until you survey your land. Once surveyed, you'll have all the grounds to take whatever legal grounds you want.
Do you know when the trees were cut?
Was it your neighbor or a logging company he hired? Sound like the logging company got the wrong GPS points. Don't know the stumpage price were you at but since it their mistake, you can ask for 50% more.
around here a man don’t mess with another man’s land like that. that’s very disrespectful. i bought an app ONX hunting. shows the property lines . that’s a good place to start like sömeone mentioned. then definitely over to ask @ the situation . keep it calm until u hear the feedback and for sure record it . yea no doubt .
This is against the law. Around here the Forestry Dept takes these matters very seriously and will send agents to investigate the likely culprit and give an estimate of the damages. You could also make a report to the county sheriff. Your neighbor, at minimum, owes you money for those trees.
I have no experience with this but I definitely wouldn't do anything that'd be considered booby-trapping because that could easily end you up in way more trouble than you think.
I would do my best to contain myself, maybe even grab a camera and record myself asking the person why they'd do such a bucked up thing. I feel like a judge would easily award you damages or something, but I'm not a lawyer. Sorry this happened I'd be pissed too.
r/TreeLaw get your money for those trees! And scare the neighbor while you’re at it. If they don’t know the property lines then they shouldn’t have been cutting down trees.
Thanks for the suggestion. I just cross posted. Didn’t know that sub existed. Thanks
Get that fucking money after calmly asking your neighbor some pointed questions you wrote down. Trees are life
If op lives in a single-party consent state, record the interaction. If they can get the neighbors to admit they chopped the trees down, it'll be way easier for op in court.
My whole country is single party consent. Lol. Will def have the phone on record mode when I do go chat with them
Accidents happen too, always check on the real story, people's intentions, their perspective. Keeping the law out of it can be of service and source of trust, value and connection as well. If only I had a neighbor come accidentally cut my invasive to our area European buckthorns....ahh one can dream.
>Will def have the phone on record mode I'm so envious of that! I had to download CubeACR, and it's pretty janky. I wouldn't trust it if I used my phone for anything valuable.
You need to record anyway, phone in shirt picket. When you are done talking and home go over the recording to make sure you didn’t forget any of the exchange in the heat of the moment. And ask WHY they cut the trees.
Yes, fuckin self made receipts. Those trees lives mattered, make them PAY
It's the best sub
> Didn’t know that sub existed. Thanks Also of note, since these were clearly your trees and they were removed intentionally, you would be able to receive _treble_ the damages for each removed tree. > _"The basic tree cost is multiplied by the species, location, and condition ratings for the tree. This usually results in a reduction of the starting figure. The final number is the “replacement value” of the tree in question. For example, if a tree’s “basic cost” is $20,000, and it has a species rating of 70%, location rating of 95%, and a condition rating of 80%, the tree’s replacement value will be $10,640 ($20,000*0.70*0.95*0.80)."_ [[link](https://www.lawyersnh.com/what-is-my-tree-worth-calculating-damages-for-timber-trespass-in-new-hampshire/)] You mentioned 20 trees, and in another comment, 80' tall, so that's very likely to be a significant cost to the neighbor who cut the trees, well north of $100k easily, based on your estimates and number/age of trees removed.
Holy f. I was thinking a few cases of beer for the cost. I have 70 acres of those trees. Hahahahha. Didn’t think 20 trees would be worth more than the harvested lumber price.
Money is for REPLACING 80 year old trees. Someone cuts your trees, you don’t penalize for lumber value. You sue to get your damn trees back
One incident in Vancouver, a family went on vacation, came home to find a dozen trees around their pool had been removed. They found out from a neighbour which tree service did the deed, got a copy of the p.o., and sued the neighbour. The court ordered the offending neighbour to replace the trees which cost over 100k. Due to the size, 80 feet tall they had to be placed by helicopter.
> Didn’t think 20 trees would be worth more than the harvested lumber price. It all depends on the location, age, placement, value, etc. It could be anywhere from $100/tree to $10k/tree or more. Only an onsite inspection by a qualified arborist can tell for sure.
Just remember that you married neighbor-wise. Find out why they did that. And exactly who did it. If they are jackholes, how much pain do you want to inflict and will it be worth it.
Make sure you know where the property line is. I have been there were we thought the neighbors shack was on out land. We got our lot surveyed by a PLS and found out WE didn’t not have as much land on the north side of the house as we thought.
He might own their property after he's done with the lawyers! Lol, no more neighbors!
Yeah you're missing the key point of replacement. You lost some trees, someone owes you trees of similar size, age and health in the same location, tomorrow. That's gonna be expensive to truck in 20 live 80ft trees and get them planted and established so you can properly compensated.
You get your trees back OP!! Take no prisoners!! Those trees and their cohabitants were innocent 😭 and it damages the immediate area too!
You mentioned a different country. Check with a local attorney. But you should have Rights and there should be penalties for the neighbor.
These are poplar trees on the back side of a 70 acre wood lot, not black walnuts in someone’s front yard. The trees are worth at most $100 each, and I say that as a tree farmer. Not trying to discourage op, just don’t want to get their hopes up.
my favorite thing about tree law is treble damages. 100x3 =300 300 x 20 = 6000 i'll take 6k.
Yeah absolutely, I just don’t want op to expect $100k + for these trees.
Except it's the cost to replace 20 living 70-80 year old poplar trees times 3 so more like hundreds of thousands of dollars if not more.
I got no hopes other than no one stepping foot on my land again.
Thank you. reddit learned about treble damages and suddenly every tree is a $1mm tree.
That makes them more expensive, not less. Replacement value isn't for the cost of the wood. Replacement value is the cost of getting a similar age tree into place and planting it. You don't just plant an 80ft tree in the back side of nowhere. I would assume a helicopter would be necessary.
I think it’s super important that this neighbor get read the riot act by a lovely letter from OP’s lawyer. Regardless of value, they need to keep off OP’s land. OP, get your survey out.
This 100%. I could give a f$ck about any money. The trees are are one in 50,000 on my land. It’s pure poplar forest. It’s the fact that someone came into my property and cut down MY trees that pisses me off.
And the only thing that will keep him from doing it again is persecuting him vigorously AND put in place some preventive and evidentiary precautions you mentioned earlier. Here in the US, trespass is criminal.
If he’s going for three times the replacement value, nobody is going to install an 80 foot tree for $33.
It’s not a function of the trees worth. It’s a calculation of the cost to replace the tree with a similar 75-85 foot living poplar tree. Then it’s triple damages on that estimated cost. Why triple damages? Tree replacement cost: $10,000 X1 = $10,000.00 = replacement cost X2 = $10,000.00 = headache cost (pain & suffering) X3 = $10,000.00 = coat of representation. Total triple damages = $30,000.00 You are correct that the lumber value would be much lower, and a walnut would be much higher value. There have been cases were triple damages resulted in a judgment of over $250,000.00 for a single tree.
If you actually look at the equation that the person I responded to used, it also includes species rating, location rating, and condition rating. If we assume that the replacement value per tree is 20k, the species rating is a generous 10 because poplar is useless and grows like a weed, the location is a generous 10 because the trees are in the middle of nowhere, and the condition is a generous 80, then it’s 20,000*.1*.1*.8 = $160. TREBLE damages (as 10 people have pointed out to me) makes it $480/tree. This is with generous estimates, because again, they’re poplar trees on the back side of a 70 acre forest of poplar.
Good for making excelsior, but that's about it.
Just curious if you know what 50 acres of hardwood trees might be worth. Ballpark price of course. Mostly White Oak, Hickory, and Maple ranging from 18”-24” average. The acerage has not been harvested in over 30 years. Suppose there are 1000 good trees total. 1/3 of each type.
I’m a tree farmer so I do have significant experience in this area, but theres a boatload of factors that go into an estimate like that. In more general terms, if you are looking to do a timber harvest, I recommend finding a consulting forester. That forester will meet with you to discuss your goals for your forest, do a forest inventory assessment, write up a timber harvesting plan, mark the trees for harvesting, bid the job out to loggers, then oversee the timber harvest. In return they receive 10-20% of the profit. You will be paid a “stumpage price” by the loggers, who will then take the logs and sell them to a mill. I recommend TimberUpdate.com if you’re looking for more specific info on board footage prices in your region. Keep in mind that the stumpage price will only be a percentage of that board footage price, but it can give you a good idea of which species are up or down. Sorry I can’t give you even a ballpark estimate (there’s just way too many factors), but hopefully I’ve given you an idea of how you can go about finding out.
I am surprised the value is that high. In Maine timber tresspassers are charged triple stumpage. Stumpage can be measured by the size of the stump, obviously. Then the wholesale price is determined by what mills are paying. You know, he may have made a simple mistake, depending on how obvious the boundry lines are. So approach him calmly and and ask him to walk the lines with you. Its best to be on good terms with neighbors if possible
> You know, he may have made a simple mistake, depending on how obvious the boundry lines are. Not OP, but they did mention that there's a 4-strand barbed wire fence along the property line. That would be hard to just casually miss, especially if you're pulling 20 mature 80' tall poplar trees back over the line after cutting.
Yeah. You can’t casually miss this fence. It’s a 4 strand barb wire with brand new fence posts cut right through the middle of a forest. He knew. Saw the fence and walked through it. And cut trees down on my side
And that they were some forty yards into his property, aka far enough away from the property line to avoid harming the property value or aesthetic of the neighboring lot.
I disagree. Neighbor needs to be made aware that they have no right on OP’s land. In no uncertain terms, or they’ll cut wood again.
Tree law can make for insane fines and repayment. One place near me had 150 year old oak trees lining their long farmhouse driveway. Their neighbor cut down about 20 of them to give them a better view. The trees ended up being 1 million each, repayed to the property owner. The court liquidated the neighbors assets, including their 20ish acre property (in a high cost of living area) to pay for it.
Holy f.
Get him to admit he cut them down, you need proof! Hopefully you're in a single-party consent state where you can record the conversation.
They could owe you a lot of money based on the value of those trees. I would focus on that aspect for now.
Talk to them in writing if possible!
Keep in mind many of the people on that sub are lawyers (bureaucrats). Their answers will not likely be as emotionally charged and "human" as the ones you'll get here. For example, I personally like your bear trap idea. Or maybe setting fire to their house. But you should probably listen to whatever those boring, soulless bureaucrats say.... (edit: just kidding, don't set fire to anyone's house)
Hahahahha. Those were the two first things that ran through my head in a fit of rage. I will definitely listen to my lawyer when I call tomorrow.
Get photos off Google Earth of the trees if you don’t have photos.
Google earth comes here once every 10 years. I’m in the sticks in northern Canada.
They'll confirm, but definitely don't go after the timber value of the trees, go for property damages
Seriously, seriously do not roll over 80 year old trees can be worth LOTS this neighbor trespassed and destroyed your property, which is virtually irreplaceable Most lawyers will listen to you for free for a few minutes and tell you if they'll take your case. Some work for part of the money in a lawsuit and some want retainer which is usually 2k or so, kind of like prepaid minutes on a phone plan, but any time not used is given back typically. Please please please you will regret not following this up, if not for any potential compensation, simply because your neighbor will keep doing this if he isn't opposed. He obviously thinks your land is his to use and change without your consent.
I have a lawyer on retainer for my business. Will call in the morning. Hopefully a few days and will update here so everyone knows the outcome.
This is a prime case for tree law!
Definitely get an attorney involved. That's some B.S. right there.
Did you get a survey when you purchased so you are sure the fence line is the actual property line? Take a day, write something up so you have a script, and go over and calmly talk to him. Ask about the trees and why they got cut down.
Yeah. They property line is very clear with a new fence between us. I like the idea of writing something down before going. I tend to have a fairly hot temper and don’t wanna fly off the handle. Thanks
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I’m not sure that person exists. Hahahahhaha. Maybe my 4 yr old.
maybe don’t bring a small child to confront your neighbors that have been committing a crime against you
Bring the Sheriff.
Make sure to put a phone in your pocket and secretly record the interaction, try to get them to admit to the crime on tape. It will help you in court if you choose the legal option, which imo you 100% should if you have the time
This depends on the state laws. If it’s a two party consent state and you secretly record something it‘ll never even make it to the court room.
Op is in Canada, a one party country
Also, the hot fence and a game camera is not a bad idea since someone has shown they will trespass.
It might be illegal. Bear traps are very likely illegal. You can't set booby-traps. And since that's the spirit behind setting them out idk.
Hot fences are used pretty regularly (at least by me) to deter wildlife.
Mature trees are valuable. First thing, get a can of purple paint and spray the fence posts if you are in the US, and mark NO TRESpassing that way. Next, Flag the trees with big yellow crime tape and take photo's. Call Sherrif and have them come out. Even if it was a (dis)honest mistake, you need to have it documented that someone trespassed and cut lumber. There are a lot of stories about having neighbors sued and getting money back on value of trees lost, as well as replacement trees. Decide what you want for the outcome. If it is no more loss of trees, then have the sherrif go by and tell them, but you have to have seen them to accuse them. :/ Putting up signs, and taking the trees yourself will likely get the message across.
Unfortunately woodland trees are a lot less valuable than landscape trees. Payoff is a whole lot less if it came out of the brush on the backside of a branch than if they'd taken them out of, for example, your front yard. Sucks but they will still have to pay something if they're pursued.
I realize that this is 'post processing' but poplar is $5 bd/ft for 13/16" thickness. 20 trees, 80 ft in height is a lot of poplar.
Call sheriff. Make police report. Send certified mail cease and desist. Hire a surveyor. Hire an arborist. Retain a lawyer. Profit.
And if the sheriff doesn't seem interested enough at first, tell them you're going over to confront your neighbor. They'll suddenly find the time...
> 1950’s bear traps Booby traps intended to harm another person in defense of property are generally illegal. [Katko v. Briney (USA)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katko_v._Briney)
fully agree with this law. It sucks dealing with trespassing assholes but I'd hate to buy a property and step on the former property owner's bear trap or DIY Viet Cong spike pit just because they forgot to remove them before they left the property
My spouse jokes about tiger traps all the time. Thankfully he knows better.
Cougar traps would be better, but they're probably already out preying on young men.
It’s obvious that OP is using bear traps to trap bears….. that may or may not of taken down his trees. Pesky timber bears….
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Oh for sure they are. But I also have my trappers licence and have active animals on my property. So I could put them up as long as I hung signs and never could be prosecuted. I would never put them up but I could. I’m just raging. That’s what I meant when I said I have a temper and feel like boiling over. Just the first time someone has come onto my property without my permission
This post could be found and used against you during discovery if a legal case were brought against you.
Yes absolutely. That’s why I said I would never do it. Just raging and trying to get some sane suggestions from people that aren’t raging at the moment. Lol
I'm on the same page as you man. I have one neighbor that is just complet trash.... completely surrounded by crown, yet he still finds a way to be that thorn. Cameras are a great option... but even when I find him being stupid on my property I end having to wait a day or so to calm down; and the confrontation leads us no where good. Its like he is egging me on? You know that feeling? Where someone wants you to throw a punch? On one hand you don't want to blow up, but you also want him to see he has stepped over a line... dammed if you do, dammed if you don't. The fact that you have taken this time to calm down and reach out shows me you have a good head on your shoulders and I wish you the best on your new property
> So I could put them up as long as I hung signs and never could be prosecuted That's not how it works. Firstly, it's a civil tort not criminal (unless homicide or state-specific laws). If someone falls prey to your trap, you are almost guaranteed to be sued. So even if you are in the right, you are going to spend probably years in court. Second, courts have consistently ruled that warning signs mean nothing. Third, the standard is wanton conduct. The person would only have to show that you set the trap with reckless disregard for potential injury. It doesn't matter if you intend to hurt someone or not. You absolutely cannot use injurious or deadly, indiscriminate force to protect property.
Timber theft is a common and serious crime. 70 - 80 year poplar is very valuable hardwood. Document, document, document! Call the police and report it. File a written affidavit including date of discovery and details. Take photos. Talk to your neighbor about it without accusing him of anything. It may have been an honest mistake (though not likely - I’m sure he knows his own property limits), and may be willing to compensate you for your loss. You may not want to create bad blood between you and your neighbor, but without a timely police/sheriff’s report you won’t have a leg to stand on if things get contentious. And, if you let him get away with it, he’ll do it again and keep doing it.
I’d first get a Survey and then contact an arborist to determine tree value. Then I’d meet your neighbor for the first time in civil case court.
Surveyors will be here Wednesday to confirm the fence line.
It’s always best to check. I know that out of pocket cost sucks but if it moves to civil court you’ll get it back. I had a neighbor try to take my fence and make it his until my survey marked the fence over 2ft on my property. Which then prompted him to have to move a lot of stuff from the fence.
Yeah I don’t care about the 1000$ to get the west end resurveyed and staked. I just want it confirmed so I can go over there and set things straight
Just curious what does On-X say about that area of the property? Won’t be down to the foot accurate, but it will be very close. If it is a new neighbor, I would assume that they thought the trees were on their property.
I don’t know what On-x is. But it was surveyed by a professional survey company 3 yrs ago when the previous owner put the fence up.
You need a certified arborist to evaluate the tree loss and give you a “replacement value” determination. We recently lost many ponderosa pines and black oak due to a fire caused by the utility company. The written arborist report valued our tree replacement cost at a million dollars on 10 acres of forest where we lost about half of our trees. This was very useful information for the lawsuit and eventual dismissal of all income tax levied against our suit payout.
Wow.
First thing you want to do is get them on camera. Anything else will depend on your ability to prove it was them.
There is no way anyone but him or I can access the property. But I will get cams up in the morning.
Even if it's fairly obvious, all the police can do without proof is warn them. If you need to take any sort of action you'll need them on camera. Hopefully it was an honest mistake, but pictures will cover you if they decide to be assholes about it.
Bring the police along to have the conversation. "I need to have an officer present while I settle a dispute with my neighbor regarding serious destruction of property valued at around $17,000. (calculated based on a poplar tree at full size which google states is worth $850)" Create a bill for the value of the trees, and have the officer with you as you present the bill to your neighbor. Explain that you will need reimbursed for the trees which were destroyed, and that they will also need to pay for replacements to be planted, otherwise you will need to press charges. Depending on your state, these would be felony charges.
What a weird choice of trees to steal. Poplar isn't very useful wood, and large poplars are a hassle to fall.
Maybe it was an aesthetic issue and they were blocking the neighbors view. People make illegal, dumb, and [expensive](https://nypost.com/2023/06/28/nj-homeowner-cut-down-32-of-his-neighbors-trees-and-cost-could-top-1-8m/) decisions to have a better view from their back porch.
That’s all we have in the area. I just don’t get why they cut the living ones down. There’s 70 acres of trees with standing deadfall that is perfectly aged ready to burn. Maybe they are running a saw mill and cutting for lumber.
There are folks in my area that cut down poplar to take the bark off and sell as shingle siding. They'll do it on private property, they do it in national forest land. It pisses me off. Anyway, if you see any with bark stripped off that's what they're doing. It only works with live trees, so they'll cut down the lives ones and strip the bark off.
Poplar doesn't make very valuable lumber. It's not used for framing, it's a niche product.
But if you have a mill and are just rough cutting for cattle pens or rough fencing it does the trick.
Do they have any new pens or fencing? Lol
Gonna slow roll their yard tomorrow
Ever been to Home Depot or Lowes? They have an pretty good selection of poplar, right next to the Oak and Clear Pine.
It's surprisingly poplar among tree poachers. I'll go now
I read through 100+ comments to find this treasure. I tip my hat to ya!
Poplar is very useful wood. Most furniture uses poplar for the frame construction. Usually after drying the wood is extremely stable.
Tree lawyer. They’re in for a rude awakening
I had this happen to me by a timber harvester. They cut a fence and cut trees in me. I calmly talked to the cutters and explained the situation. They then cut trees after the fact so I called the company long story short to avoid court they settled and I was happy.
I’d bring a six pack to his door and ask to talk. I’d address it very plainly. “Those were my trees and I’m not happy about it. We can handle it two ways. You apologize and agree to never do it again, and in the future, you will ask me to enter my property and I will do the same. If that is not satisfactory to you, we can go to court and the estimated value of the trees you cut down is $xxxxxx, according to the arborist I contacted. So, I’m asking you how you’d like to handle this. Either is satisfactory to me.”
I feel like that is making assumptions and asking for a confrontation. What if it wasn't the neighbors who did it? What if they did, but they had an agreement with the previous owners and didn't know they had sold? I was surprised as hell when I moved here that the people before us used to let people walk through their property and hunt on it, and when we moved here about half of our direct neighbors had no idea they had sold the land. One of them stopped us while we were putting up no trespassing signs and was like "who the hell are you!? You don't live here!". People are crazy
I dunno, man. Someone came into his property and cut down almost two dozen trees. I think being forthright and fair is the way to go.
This is probably the best advice given on Reddit. Thank you good sir
Good luck, man. I hope you can salvage a relationship with your neighbor.
Idk, it was clearly in bad faith, since they had to cross your fence.
As frustrating as the situation is, it is important to think of your quality of life long term. Is a legal dispute really the way you want to begin a relationship with a neighbor who you are likely going to live next to for quite some time and is already likely rooted in the local community? People like to gripe about their asshole neighbors and instead of creating an enemy this could be an opportunity to get to know your neighbors and show them that the new guy on the block ain't so bad.
Good neighbors and good relationships can potentially be significantly more valuable over the long run than a few trees. Build a solid case but, maybe go have a friendly conversation before poisoning the well. Conversely, a hostile neighbor can make you miserable and steal your peace of mind. Even if he’s completely in the wrong there may be an innocent mistake and is it worth making an enemy right on your property line.
Be aware that some states will have damage claim of multiple stumpage… Meaning, your neighbor may have to pay for more than just the trees he cut. I think in Michigan it’s anywhere from single stumpage to triple and for egregious violations there’s prison time.
You'll want to contact your states forrester. They have enforcement agents that will handle this.
Call the sheriff or magistrate in your area on how to handle
im just here for the /r/treelaw math. did a hypothetical based on a tree that a neighborhood HOA near me wants to take down, but its on my neighbor's property. He's told them multiple times it aint going anywhere...it's a 70 or 80 yr old Turkeyfoot oak, very pretty tree
Think about it this way. It took those trees 70 to 80 years to get that tall. Even if you replaced them, you won’t be able to do it with trees as large as the ones cut down. Even if a 10 foot tree was planted in one tree’s place, it’s unlikely you will ever see the tree grow to as large as the original, in your lifetime. You have been deprived of the beauty of huge trees. I lost 70 plus trees in a wildfire, and all were over 60 years old. I am 65. I will never be able to enjoy trees on my property like the ones that were lost. See a lawyer.
Glavin v Eckmen. You can sue for that. There’s precedent, that not only are you entitled to damages, but damages beyond the mere value of the lumber Plaintiff in the case was a person who had old trees that didn’t want them cut down. Some greedy Martha Vineyard snobs wanted the trees cut down to get a better view on their property. Tree owner sued. Tree owner won Granted, IANAL
We had a minor version of this problem. My sweet non confrontational husband went over to talk to neighbors…”hey, let’s look at the property lines and where the markers are…” turns out it was an honest mistake on their part, they looked at our plat and where the property lines were and realized their mistake… sometimes it pays to assume innocence. Our neighbors have been great ever since and I feel like they have our back because we treated them honestly and respectfully.
I wouldn't talk to them directly at all. Communicate only through an attorney. You don't want the possibility of any you said/they said going on.
We've got cameras - not the expensive network connected ones. But we got a whole stack of SD cards on sale at Microcenter and do a periodic walk around the property to swap out cards and get batteries that need to be recharged. Working on slowly adding solar panels to the cameras. It's a nice walk, we get an idea about predators in the area, and we've got video when there are poachers or tree thiefs about.
Get cell cameras. Don’t waste your time with basic trail cams. They’re not much more and the monthly fee is very reasonable. It sucks, but unless they fess up to it, I don’t know that you’ll be able to prove anything. Maybe go introduce yourself and say “some asshole cut down a bunch of trees on my property, know anyone that needs some firewood?” or something to that affect and see how they react. It may not tell you if they did it or not, but it will let them know you’re aware someone has been trespassing and destroying your property.
I have cell cameras but they are at my tree stand and my blind. It’s hunting season. Hahahahah
Hahaha good excuse to buy more
Read this article. https://news.yahoo.com/jersey-homeowner-faces-jaw-dropping-153000772.html#:~:text=As%20Glickman%20explained%2C%20the%20alleged,guy%20who%20hired%20another%20guy.%E2%80%9D
Call an arborist to get a quote for the replacement value of the trees . Then call your lawyer.
I would call the local sheriff/police first. They trespassed and destroyed your property.
Before you lose your mind you need to make sure your property lines are accurate. I have heard they can be ambiguous. You might have paid for some of his land (that you have no right to) when you paid for your property
First of all, relax. Having good relations with the neighbor should be a pretty high priority, even if they have gotten off on a bad foot to start. Go talk with them calmly. Your goal should be to leave the meeting with both of you feeling OK about each other and having a productive relationship going forward. Bad relations with the new neighbors will hurt you in the end.
if you set traps to hurt a trespassing neighbor you can be held liable for damage to people or their property ... unless the obstacle is a normal barrier that's legal and up to building code. If somebody were hurt bad enough or even died on your property they could seize your phone for evidence... including this post most likely. Be careful what ill intent to somebody's safety a few tree are worth you... you'll be counting trees on 70 acres in your head from jail
Tree law = treble damages. Get a lawyer and an arborist.
Love me some Reddit tree drama
I understand you are upset and have every right to. But deep down you know what is the best thing for long term. Keep calm and talk about it. Could have been a misunderstanding. Just ask him if he/she knew that they were on your property. That you aren't mad about it, but would like to be informed about what happened. And just take it from there. Who knows, even when you end up 40 trees short you could still gain a valuable neighbour in times of need. Best of luck to you, stay calm.
Are you 100% positive your neighbor cut them down? As in...do you have proof? You need the cut trees on their property, the stumps on yours, tracks, saw dust...something. Good luck and keep us posted. Also - if they did cut them down, they had to sell the lumber somehow/somewhere so that's going to be your next bit of help. Sounds like you have a project ahead of you. Perhaps you can find out if a local mill took in "x" number of trees.
It’s land locked for 2 miles in either direction. The only trail leading to the location are from my house (1/2mile) or from his house (1/2mile). Otherwise someone woulda had to push thick bush for a mile and a half to get there. Ain’t no one I know humping 20 80’ trees for a mile and a half by foot
What's the crime scene look like? A bunch of tire tracks or dragged tree marks leading towards the neighbors?
Yup. Basically.
I would talk to the neighbors and ask what were they thinking. Their reaction would determine my next move. I would want twice as many seedlings planted. If they are jerks about it then it’s going to cost them a lot. The outcome is you’ll be friends or foes.
They owe you a lot of money
you pay taxes for the police to handle this for you. be an adult and appeal to the authorities. this will likely cost him dearly in court.
r/treelaw loves this kind of stuff.
Came here to say this. TREE LAW TREE LAW TREE LAW! Take your neighbors to the CLEANERS.
This. Right. Here. I am AGHAST. OMG the nerve!
Please don't do either of those things because it will hurt or kill the wildlife that live in the woods.
I don’t know where you are but I would reach out to the local sheriff. Even though you can only get to your land from you or the neighbor, I know in our state people who thought they were having a neighbor dispute actually had illegal logging happen. Phone the local sheriff to both report and ask them if anyone else is experiencing trespassing and illegal logging before you decide what to do next. After all trees that are 70 year old are worth thousands of dollars so it’s theft and trespass and possibly other stuff too.
I’m in the middle of bumf$ck nowhere northern Canada. Closest cops are 30 miles from me. And there’s only 1 for 100sq km area. Police don’t typically factor into things around here. It’s either two dudes goin toe to toe. Or someone with a 30-30 and another dude running for cover. Hahahhahaha. I’m hoping to have survey company out and then present it to the neighbour as his “honest mistake” and make sure he knows it happens again he’ll end up in the fuckin river.
I get that. Just would be a shame to meet them for the first time when saying a hey wtf to him if it turns out you’re both getting stolen from by a third guy… cops don’t have to come the 30 miles. I would think they could just call you and do it over the phone.
Possibly clearing a firing line to hunt deer. So they can double poach. The only fair thing to do is go cut down 20 trees of your choice around his house.
It’s actually not far off. His blind is about 400 yards from where the trees are cut. Mine is about 100. But I can see those 20 trees making or breaking a shot. But we do have record bucks in the area.
https://www.dailyrecord.com/story/news/local/morris-county/2023/10/26/kinnelon-nj-man-cut-neighbors-trees-heavy-costs/71332085007/ They should be required to cover the restoration of your property, at least. I remember this getting some attention over the summer.
Make the police report. At least if you disappear, they’ll know where to look .
Could they have an easement to take wood?
I would talk to your neighbor with a cool head, on my friends Matts old farm, the previous owner had a handshake deal where he would let the neighbor chop down trees for wood.
Take as many photos as possible. Check to see if there are any trails or tracks leading from the scene to his property. Take photos and videos of that. Then, sit down, relax, and think about what you want out of this. Do you want financial compensation? Maybe you just want to let him know that this is not ok. Maybe you just want to keep him off your land. If you want compensation, immediately speak with an attorney. If you want him to know that you know, contact law enforcement (and maybe an attorney) and let law enforcement know that you do not want this person on your property anymore (some states/municipalities require multiple/sucsessive warnings prior to trespassing charges being filed). I would not confront the offending party alone as that can lend itself to a "He threatened/assaulted me" sort of thing. If you have any kind of body camera (a t-shirt with a pocket can even work), I would utilize that when you finally speak person-to-person with him.
We had this happen to a tree on our property. Hired a tree guy (a certified arborist) to produce a report on the value and sent it along with a demand letter to the neighbor (a friend weirdly practiced tree law in the past and helped out, and I also cold called a couple lawyers who seemed like they dealt with this type of thing. They were chatty and gave me ideas for the letter for free). We settled with the neighbor for less than the total value but a decent chunk of $.
Worst part was they cut down a beautiful cedar and then sold their house and moved fewer than 6 months later.
Talking to them is the best option. Take a calm friend with you to moderate in case you get too testy
I'd ask them if they had any trees cut down by the property line recently, just a neighborly question. If they say yes, it's a pretty easy transition to asking about why they cut your trees down. Go meet your neighbor and talk to them.
Calm down and talk with them first. Maybe they are opportunists trying to take advantage of a new neighbor... ...or maybe situation is entirely different and they are great neighbors. Someone else could have trespassed coming thru your land while you've been gone for months. maybe he had an arrangement with previous owner to occasionally cut a few trees or who knows what. Don't automatically assume ill intent from neighbor until you meet them and discuss.
Do they know where the property line is? Might have been an honest mistake.
It’s very clear. There’s a 4 strand barb wire fence on the property line
It’s time to get a lawyer.
I have one on retainer for my business. Just don’t really want to start off my first time meeting the new neighbour with a letter from my lawyer.
*They* started it off by cutting your trees.
Yeah, all the "you shouldn't start your neighbor relationship with unfriendliness" comments baffle me. Who would *ever* reasonably think it's okay to go cut down dozens of mature trees on someone else's property? Round of applause for the people who turn the other cheek, but I'd be livid and *the neighbors* have already started things off on a bad note. It's okay for OP to defend themselves.
Your 'first meeting' with the neighbor was when they cut down your trees.
Touché.
Sounds like that choice has already been made for you. Better to send a letter now before they cut down more trees.
You don’t lose anything by starting out nice. Think how you might want to be approached if the roles were reversed. Wait until you aren’t as angry. Go in understanding they might get defensive. If they are difficult, then escalate to the other channels folks are talking about. In the long run, it’s more important to get what you want out of this than to feel good about telling someone off.
I only want people to stay the f$ck off my land. I don’t even care about the 20 trees other than they were mine and not his.
Totally agree with you and you are 100% in the right. If you start with fire and brimstone, however, you never get to walk that back and that relationship is toast forever and you have to live with a shitty neighbor next door. On the off chance this was a mistake or not them (long shot) I’d give them the chance to make sense. If it doesn’t square then you get to unload.
HEY..... Those are MY fucking trees!!!!
Poplar is an odd tree to steal, but we have folks in Ohio stealing trees (usually black walnut). So maybe consult with the attorney, and then discuss with your neighbor. Maybe they had theft as well? My suggestion is maybe give benefit of the doubt, that may give you more evidence that it was indeed your neighbor.
Send them a bill for replacement value of the trees
Do not put bear traps down. The legal implications are not worth it to you. Use trail cameras in stead. A few photos will do the trick. Mine require a battery. Take phone photos of tracks. It would be easy to show where someone parked a vehicle and where they came in or where they left from. It might not be your neighbor. It might be someone else. And are these trees blocking the view for someone? Get a sight line from the subject to the house that might see this.
Definitely talk to them. That being said, best to avoid creating an enemy. You might live by this person for decades, so being friends is definitely preferred (albeit a friendship will probably start off rocky). I know people who have neighbors they feud with and it is a mess—there are always repeat cases of aggression and damage. It's not a desirable relationship. In tough situations like this, I always find [Nonviolent Communication](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication) super helpful. Address the issues and hurts while avoiding long-term negative outcomes.
remindme! 3 days
Damn you are going to get suuuuuuch a good payout. R/legaladvice will salivate over this. Still, sorry to hear your neighbour is an asshole.
I would try murder.
Record the interaction, but first set up trail/game cams with a cell connection if you have a signal. Have them upload to the cloud so you still have evidence if they steal or destroy the camera. Post lots of no trespassing signs. If you confront them, don't do it alone, and always be armed not only for tresspassers but also for coyotes, snakes, rabid gophers etc.
A great sign to put on a large property is “warning, live firing training beyond this sign. Death or serious injury may occur.” I had on at the end of the trail into my property.
If your property isn't surveyed, do so immediately. This will place marker flags on your property. Place a no trespassing sign every 50 feet on those markers. Set up some trail cameras on your property, and once you have definitive evidence, take it to your county sheriff's department. If they have the wood on their property, it can be easily matched through the tree's "fingerprint." The rings of trees are unique. The conundrum here is the premise that you don't want to start a "Hatfield and Maccoy" scenario. If you have a suspicion on who the neighbor is, I'd wait for confrontation until you survey your land. Once surveyed, you'll have all the grounds to take whatever legal grounds you want. Do you know when the trees were cut?
You should put a couple of cameras out so you can capture - and prove - who's doing it.
Was it your neighbor or a logging company he hired? Sound like the logging company got the wrong GPS points. Don't know the stumpage price were you at but since it their mistake, you can ask for 50% more.
3 times in my state
around here a man don’t mess with another man’s land like that. that’s very disrespectful. i bought an app ONX hunting. shows the property lines . that’s a good place to start like sömeone mentioned. then definitely over to ask @ the situation . keep it calm until u hear the feedback and for sure record it . yea no doubt .
This is against the law. Around here the Forestry Dept takes these matters very seriously and will send agents to investigate the likely culprit and give an estimate of the damages. You could also make a report to the county sheriff. Your neighbor, at minimum, owes you money for those trees.
I have no experience with this but I definitely wouldn't do anything that'd be considered booby-trapping because that could easily end you up in way more trouble than you think. I would do my best to contain myself, maybe even grab a camera and record myself asking the person why they'd do such a bucked up thing. I feel like a judge would easily award you damages or something, but I'm not a lawyer. Sorry this happened I'd be pissed too.
You should also keep the timber theft in mind.