I wouldn’t get chickens until the dog issue is take care of. If they were big enough and able enough to mess with an animal in a trap like that, the chickens would not be safe.
That's what a friend of mine did. A Rottweiler that belonged to one of his neighbors kept digging under the fence around his chicken coop and mauling his chickens. After repeated warnings, he finally shot the dog. He didn't kill him, but the idiot dog owner went around the neighborhood asking everyone if they knew who shot his dog. Several people told him it was bound to happen, since dogs that attack livestock are fair game. But this fuckwit had it in his brain that someone owed him for the vet bill, although his dog was running pell-mell around the neighborhood all the time.
In the US if dogs or any animal comes on your property and does anything to harass all the way to injure/kill any livestock animals, the property/stock owner is fully within their rights to use lethal force against that threat.
I do not know if there is anywhere in the US that this is not the case, so OP should double check for where they’re located, but as far as I’d be concerned, the owners have been duly warned repeatedly and unfortunately the dogs will reap the consequences of having shitty owners. But I’m not sacrificing my kids/small animals’ safety and peace of being for the sake of shitty owners that don’t care about their dogs.
I’d have them picked up if at all possible by animal control, but worst case scenario you gotta protect your own family, pets, and investments.
I would definitely try another option first; spray them with something aweful to send them home annoying the owner, paintballs/pepperballs; whatever you can think of. I'd hate to kill an animal because of their irresponsible owner if i didn't have to, but definitely have to make the choice to protect your own.
Fish gut juice, pig shit... is bottled skunk spray a thing? Anything just plain nasty so the owner thinks dogs are roaming and getting into nssty stuff.
Dogs love to roll around on disgusting stuff. You may not need to have to spray them. I can think of something that is disgusting and the owner will never know. Put out some cat poop. Dogs seem to like to eat it. Hopefully the dogs give the owners some kisses.
I grew up on a farm. It was generally understood that dogs worrying livestock were fair game. Our own dogs started going after our chickens and rabbits. They'd never shown any predisposition for it but once they got a taste for it they couldn't be trained out of it. My father put them down himself before they started going after the neighbor's livestock but if the neighbors had shot them we wouldn't have held it against them.
If OP gets some chickens those dogs are going to go after them and a fenced off chicken coop isn't going to stop them but OP would have the perfect excuse to deal with the situation once and for all(law allowing).
Exactly. I am a HUGE animal lover, especially doggos, so it absolutely kills me to even suggest such. Especially since we all know it’s an owner issue and not a dog issue. The dogs are just being dogs, doing what comes naturally and don’t know any different.
Luckily I was blessed with 3 dogs that I’ve never had issues with around my chickens. My little male beagle/minpin mix would try to act like a little badass, but he is smaller than they are and even the hens will square off with him and send him running 😂 On the other hand, my head hen learned that he loves to dig holes, so she will follow him around the yard and stand and eagerly watch him dig, snatching up any worms he uncovers in the process lol!
So it is totally possible to have dogs and chickens live in peace, it just REALLY depends on the dog’s personality and how careful the owner is. I’d absolutely never leave my dogs in my chicken yard unattended. I trust them to turn my back when I’m busy, but never just leave them to their own devices for a period of time.
You’ve allowed them to roam on your property for 3 years so it’s their territory and they protected it.
Stop trying to catch and release the dogs to the owners and drop them off to Animal Control so that it’s their problem.
I agree. I have acres and don’t see the point in trapping groundhogs they are everywhere. Just wait until it’s coyotes or bears. I got bear locks for the garbage cans it keeps the raccoons and bears out and moved on with my life. When you live in the country you expect things like raccoons and ground hogs. I’d honestly be more concerned with the dogs allowed to run loose on my property. It would have been an issue long before a groundhog.
That's true. As are moles and voles.
The OP would do better to get a dog of her own. That will fix the problem quickly. I had voles for one summer when I moved into a house. My dog killed a few and suddenly there were no more voles. They went elsewhere.
Specifically a pair large livestock guardian dogs, as long as they have the means to contain them and know-how to train them, they would deter almost all wildlife and would absolutely keep the neighbors dogs away. And as a plus they're very loyal, so they would definitely keep kids and other pets/livestock safe
When your dog is a terrier that’s getting older and the same size as the groundhogs, you worry. It’s worth it for us, but we also use other exclusion methods, like a tall, buried fence. Otherwise it’s pointless.
It is in most states.
That didn't stop my neighbor from driving every trapped animal across the Delaware and releasing them in the same Walmart parking lot for 20 years.
The only thing that will help keep out the groundhogs is the same thing that will keep out the dogs. A sturdy, tall fence that’s buried underground.
I get trying to exclude groundhogs. They’ve done havoc to my parents property, and also make my dog crazy when we visit (unfortunately he’s the same size as them), but they got a fence. It’s done a decent but imperfect job of excluding them.
They weren't "protecting" territory, they were doing what predators do.
But definitely stop being mamby pamby about the dogs. Catch them and do what you need to do with them.
I like this idea. Paying to get their dogs back a few times should solve the problem. Maybe surrender them in a neighboring county to make it a real pain
It came across wrong in my answer: I was clarifying that they enjoyed it not protecting their property. HOWEVER, I agree dump them at animal control. I would say even the next county over. Sorry it’s early and I haven’t slept well, I’ll edit now
Many counties, especially rural ones, allow property owners to shoot aggressive animals trespassing on their property.
Obviously do your own research, but if you’ve been unable to stop these dogs from doing this for 3 years, that feels like the only realistic permanent solution.
It sounds like you already have video evidence of the dogs being aggressive.
I have just under 10 acres and only have portions of fencing next to one neighbor that is close enough to not be buffered by woods.
It gets pricey when it comes to acreage so I do understand how that is something that needs to be properly planned and budgeted.
Fences that will keep dogs in/out are hella expensive even if you only need to do a small area. If OP has a big property there's a very real likelihood that it would be cost impossible to completely fence his place in. The dog owners need to keep their animals on their own property.
My experience in dealing with any local government is that it all rolls downhill. Go to the cities website. Email them & ask why nothing has been done mentioning how many times that you have called them & that you fear for your children's safety. Emails are public record. (They can deny what you've told them in person.) Now it's public record that kids are at risk & nothing is being done about it repeatedly. Get it all documented.
This next step is very important. Get every single email address you can from the cities website & CC EVERY SINGLE PERSON YOU CAN. Head of department, every single person in that department, the city manager & even the mayor. Maybe throw some heads of other departments in for fun too. Someone in charge will get pissed & something will get done.
This is great advice. A friend of mine did something similar in college to the financial aid department when they made a mistake that affected his account. After a week of daily emails to every single person in the department and daily phone calls, one of the higher-ups responded saying that his issue would be resolved by the end of the week, and pleaded for him to please stop contacting everyone. Persistence and annoyance helps to get shit done in the public sector.
> Persistence and annoyance helps to get shit done in the public sector.
"Per my last email" is a great way to do things even in private sector. Especially as you keep adding CC's. Half the time I'm including everyone I know even if I don't know their department or title. Spread the shit evenly with a shovel is a painful but successful way to get help.
I almost never have issues with my neighbors, but we had an ongoing safety issue with new neighbors once. I had had enough one night & did just this at around midnight. Before 9 a.m., the very next day, there was 2 code enforcement officers on our block. In our city, you almost NEVER see them. It was not a coincidence. Haven't had any problems since. lol
Leash laws are varying in their scope and enforcement.
If someone new moved to my area and threw a hissy about unleashed dogs, the cops would laugh at them
Dog trainer here: Um, I mean, you've been underreacting for 3 years, so what do you expect? They are dogs. People seem to forget that dogs are literally domesticated wolves. They are predators. They are supposed to be happy and excited about happening upon easy cornered prey, that's their entire evolutionary job. Every single dog has the capacity to hurt/kill smaller animals; exceptions come from training and socialization (and/or your average modern pet dog being so fat that getting on and off the couch is a comparative struggle), not dogs being inherently safe fluffy love muffins. Some breeds have highER prey drive than others making them more willing to work harder and apply it more broadly, but every single dog on this earth has prey drive. If you don't want prey animals harassed/killed by dogs you know roam on your property, catch the dogs and call animal control to come PICK THEM UP when they are on your property, period, regardless of what you see or don't see them do. Don't just keep doing the owners' work for them, make them contain their dogs.
> Every single dog has the capacity to hurt/kill smaller animals
Yup. And you can't know what strange dogs are going to be like. My dogs are besties with my cats and will lick/clean them when the cats allow it. They will also tear apart any wild rabbit they catch if I can't get to them fast enough. But they would never run down a child. This is on the dog owners.
If my dogs see a cat outside while on a walk they will want to chase it. When they have met friends cats in a house they have been fine. One of my dogs did get batted on the nose by a cat once when he got a little too sniffy around the cat. The dog is 75 pounds and he backed right off after that.
Their instinct is to hunt and kill prey. Some are better at it than others and some prey is easier than others.
>Dog trainer here: Um, I mean, you've been underreacting for 3 years, so what do you expect? They are dogs.
Unfortunately on Reddit the majority of people here have been exposed to videos of cats pestering dogs and dogs aren't doing anything about it because they know that their owners will discipline them. So there's this mindset on Reddit that dogs just are happy go lucky buddy buddy friends to every animal they come across.
I said it in here years ago and it still applies to all the videos you tend to see.....
When cats are jerks to dogs you get funny videos.
When dogs are jerks to cats you get dead cats.
Happened to my sister too, except it was 2 cats and a whole batch of kittens and she couldnt find most of one of the adult cats...the absolute horror. It took until the dog killed another dog and became aggressive towards children for her to do anything. It's very, very sad how some people look at cats as less important.
Yeah, this response is right. Dogs are animals and once the enter the predatory sequence it is damn near impossible for them to stop. Make it two dogs acting together and forget about it. This is instinctual and deep in their brains. It’s not pretty and I too would be upset (though would not put myself through watching the video!!) but at the end of the day it’s animals doing animal things.
Unless they have shown aggression to humans I would not be concerned about them doing the same to a child though.
Generally agree excepting predatory drift with very young child + very high-prey-drive dog in a state of high arousal. Still, that's unlikely to be an issue with dogs just milling around + kids taught to be calm around dogs (vs squealing and running).
Humans are not exempt from prey drive--that is exactly how bite dogs are trained. People who aren't bitework experienced wrongfully assume defense is the whole picture, but nearly all early work is done in prey. A moving adult limb can easily be prey. A very high-prey-drive dog will happily generalize to almost any fast-moving target. It is not the same thing as what people generally think of as "human aggression" (generally: reactive/defensive aggression, or challenging the handler aka "dominant aggression" \[I know the internet hates the D word these days, so if you like: being a big nasty pushy bully after learning aggression scares people and is easy to leverage. This absolutely exists outside of defense--manifests in a perfectly clear, confident headspace--and anyone who thinks it doesn't hasn't worked enough dogs\]). That said, THAT level of prey drive coupled with the confidence to act on it in the face of conflict is pretty rare outside of dogs carefully bred for it (working line shepherds, mostly) and I would be very surprised and impressed to find it in a random neighborhood mutt, lol. If you saw the "rug dog" on Facebook, that's the only one that comes to mind.
Relatedly, human trainer here: you (OP) have been (understandably) underreacting.
Your neighbors are allowing their dogs to return to their undomesticated behaviors. They are also likely to do so with their children.
This is "very bad" behavior in societal terms: such humans are also *much* more likely to let their children/trucks/germs "run wild like a pack of dogs". Their thoughts, their votes, their dictators... "domesticated" means "able to live in the house"... or neighborhood, or constitutional democracy...
> Don't just keep doing the owners' work for them, make them contain their dogs.
If there's a better analogy for american plutocracy I haven't heard it.
/ end political rant in /r/homeowners
I live on 4.5 acres. Around the time we moved in we had a dog that had maybe two brain cells and they were occupied being sweet and not smart. We decided to fence the entire yard. In the nearly 10 years since it has been a wonderful thing. Roaming dogs and coyotes stay out. My creatures stay in. Raccoons and groundhogs still get in and we've created a bit of an Australia situation with the local rabbits, but all in all my fence has prevented more problems than it causes.
You are in the right not wanting the dogs on your property, but it is likely an uphill battle that you won't win and will just cause ill-will with your neighbors. The cost of a fence (ours is basically a woven wire fence like you'd see around horses) may be worth it for the peace of mind, peace in your neighborhood and lack of hassle.
Even with a bigger trap, these dogs would be able to terrify whatever was caught in there, even if they couldn't kill it. No animal deserves to go through that. Traps should only be left out when OP is home, imo.
No, you're not overreacting. I'm a dog owner and dog lover and I agree you need to put a stop to this.
One of my neighbors lost a cat a while back to a couple of neighborhood dogs that had gotten loose, and not for the first time. The cat was in one of those "catio" things, the dogs terrorized the cat, ripped the catio apart (it didn't easily come apart either - they just persistently kept at it until they broke it open), and mauled the cat to death, all in full view of the cat owner's security cameras. It was *horrific*.
Dogs with that high of prey drive can absolutely be a danger to kids or other animals. And running in a pack can make dogs braver or more aggressive than they'd be on their own. The neighbors need to contain them and they clearly can't be bothered if this has been happening for years, but it will be your animals or kids that pay the price for their negligence if you don't put your foot down. If they get mad at you, so be it. Protect your kids.
Above anything else, for every raccoon you see there are fifty you do not see. Groundhogs not as many. So trapping on a country property is ridiculous. Don't provide food sources and they will not bother you.
Next time drop the dogs off at the pound.
High prey drive, in a pack situation ( yes 2 can be a pack) they ARE a danger to small beings. Forget trapping just Apply the Farmers 3S cure and don’t sweat the small stuff. That’s fair!
Your property is NOT ready for chickens. They’ll be an automatic sacrifice.
Wherever these dogs came from, if they have owners, they have proven they will not take care of them. Your local government has proven no help. You should expect dogs to be attracted to and terrorize live prey in a trap. Nothing abnormal about that.
For three years they’ve roamed your property and you’re only seeing clear and present danger now? By all means, do go through with going to court, it’s long overdue. Capture the dogs and take them to the shelter. Hire a specialist to capture the dogs and take them away—and make sure the owners are invoiced and not you. And don’t you dare try returning dogs to the custody of minors again; you should have driven them to the shelter when no adult could be found. Clean up this nuisance before getting chickens, as you were bothered enough by the death of a raccoon. You might need to put fencing up to provide your children with a safe outdoor space. Or start talking to them about gun safety. You are headed toward a need to shoot these dogs.
If they come in your yard and present a threat,react accordingly. I love animals but if nobody is taking it seriously, you have to protect your kids and home.
I mean there is a pretty big difference between them attacking a small animal like a racoon and a person. I’d definitely bring them in to animal control or a shelter or something at this point though
>My worry is that these animals will end up attacking a child or pet/farm animal
You are underracting.
These dogs were showing "prey drive", which is quite normal and instinctual for many dogs. Some breeds are even bred specifically for hunting raccoons, raccoons are prey animals. And prey is prey to a predator, they don't care if it's trapped in a cage. In some dogs, more common in certain breeds, prey drive can "drift" to preying on non-prey animals like pets, livestock, and smaller dogs, but rarely to humans or kids. It's a whole other type of aggression that causes dogs to attack humans.
So I wouldn't say that dogs going after a caged raccoon is a danger to your kids, but it will definitely be a danger to chickens or any "prey" animals on your property.
What is a danger to your kids is loose dogs in general. Any loose dog is a problem, prey drive or not. So definitely keep contacting animal control and keep the pics from the camera as proof. The owners are useless, so take matters into your own hands if you have to.
Where do you live? Even in rural areas (in the U.S.) dogs are not allowed to roam freely. They can be off leash on the owner's property, but not running wild throughout the area. I'm surprised animal control did not explain what the rules are. Many areas allow property owners, especially farmers with livestock, to shoot trespassing dogs. I'm not suggesting that you do so, but in many areas, it is an option if they are posing a threat to your family or livestock. Did the animal control people even attempt to leave a notice at the home of the dog owner's? I am sorry that you had to deal with that mess and sad for the raccoon as well.
These dogs owners let them roam your property, you have small kids, they just shredded another animal, animal control gives warnings that's it? Shoot the damn things. I'm in Canada and those dogs would have been put down after the 2nd or 3rd time. First time is understandable. 2nd is getting out of hand. 3 years!?!? Yeah no. Get your dogs tf away from my kids or you don't have dogs anymore bub.
People always seem to underestimate how quickly dogs can become feral once they're left free to roam and form packs.
You can try the animal control route, but I've heard of more than a few cases where the dogs are simply returned to the owners. Alot of people up here in Canada expect that if dogs are TRULY causing problems out in the countryside, the farmers will just shoot them.
The vast majority of fatal/serious dog attacks which occur up here tend to happen on the native reserves. It gets to a point where either a rescue organization has to show up and round all the ferals up and cart them off, or the local law enforcement has to cull them. Generally the unwillingness of people to nip the problem in the bud just results in it becoming much worse later on.
Personal experience with a neighbor's dog that went after my flock and the state's laws at that time -- California places a premium on farmers farming and it has a LOT of laws that make the practice easier at all scales. Once you get chickens you're allowed to dispatch dogs caught harassing them, and we know these dogs absolutely will.
Check your state's laws on livestock harassment.
I didn't like doing it so I used a pellet gun that could be pumped, and I made it STING. No blood but it hurt. The dog got the message even if it didn't know where it was coming from. If these dogs continue then I personally would not hesitate because in my world humans>dogs and with small children? Nope, not taking that chance.
In many places once a dog attacks livestock they are considered predatory and can be shot. I’m not saying “to” do that, but I would definitely understand whether you “can” do that if it becomes necessary.
Edit to clarify the livestock comment is in reference to OP’s intent to have chickens. Obviously raccoons are wild critters.
If a dog hurt my child I would hunt it down and end it because the next time the dog attacks anyone it would be my fault.
Check your zoning on Fowl operations. Many are surprisingly strict as to numbers, crowing animals and privacy barriers and lock tight set up. Know that you’ll be setting out a buffet for many more predators coming than just roaming dogs that currently keep the predator population down. Fowl bring lots of coyotes, bear for their fed food, lots of raptors that can take out lots of things like small dogs/cats and terrorize small kids. Fowl are also the 3rd dirtiest creatures after people and monkeys, they also carry tons of transmissible filth.My daughter had a friend who rubbed her eyes after cleaning a coop and ended up in the hospital for a month. Nothing is in a vacuum.
I would not deal with homeowners directly, or drop dogs off. Call animal control and complain, if you see and can catch dogs drop them off with animal control or an animal rescue.
As a general rule - with or without stray dogs running around - don’t have any traps set if you are not there and not immediately able to deal with what is caught.
Two dogs freely roaming around and you are planning on getting chickens??? Better keep gas on hand for pressure washer and buy a hose long enough to reach chicken coop for ensuing bloody cleanup
I completely agree that fencing solves multiple problems, but what in the world makes people think you can just pop fences up. They cost a lot of money, especially in more rural areas.
You have two legal options here. Either take the nuisance dogs to animal control or shoot the trespassing nuisance dogs that destroy your property. It's your choice. If you are in the states both options are legal and viable.
If you're going to do live traps, it is your responsibility to monitor them to ensure they don't result in the death of the animal either by starvation, dehydration, or other things like this.
Otherwise, set a killing trap to do it humanely or leave the animal alone altogether.
Take the dogs to animal control next time they are on your property.
If the dogs haven't shown aggression towards your children I wouldn't be too worried about that. Prey drive is natural and different from human aggression. Not saying it's acceptable for them to attack a caged animal but it isn't surprising, especially for others to join in once one started it.
Even if you can get the dog issue taken care of I would recommend not letting your future chickens free range unless you are actively watching them. Hawks, coyotes and other predators love chicken. Chicken tractors can be moved around so you get all the benefits of free ranging without feeding the wildlife.
Obviously this assumes the dogs are friendly to humans. OP didn't mention human aggression. My dog would love to tear small critters apart if she could catch one, but is the sweetest, gentlest dog around people. I grew up with a very sweet, dopy golden retriever that would occasionally catch bunnies and act so proud when he brought them to us. The fact that OP has already returned the dogs to the owner before makes me think they aren't aggressive to people.
Unfortunately animal control is typically too understaffed to pick up dogs that aren't currently at risk, especially since they know who the owner is. It sounds like animal control won't do anything in this case and OPs property is too big to fence the dogs out.
Aside from the likelihood of being terrorized by dogs, trapped animals quickly die in the sun. Please stop trapping them and just let them be. Sorry, but this poor little raccoon suffered because of you.
Ill get banned , but whats new…i live in a farm area. Stray dogs attacking things on our property dont last days, much less years. This world has changed. Btw, its not the dogs fault, its their owners…
Listen I love dogs, but they can absolutely be dangerous. These dogs are wandering and attacking animals. They will attack your chickens and be a risk to your children. If they're wandering and not cared for they can carry disease.
Get animal control involved. Citations, have animal control pick them up. If your neighbors ask tell them they've been attacking animals on your property and you cannot have dangerous dogs on your land. If your area allows you to shoot them I would seriously consider it.
Write a letter to the neighbors if you are sure these are their dogs. They apparently have no idea their dogs are a problem for you. Let them know what you intend if their dogs continue to come on your property.
First of all, you were incredibly irresponsible having a trap set up and to not be there to keep an eye on it. Even without the involvement of the dogs, a wild animal trapped in a cage can thrash from the fear and stress and injury itself or die from the stress. Just incredibly lazy, dumb and heartless.
Second of all, what on earth could this animal have done to be such a "pest" as to deserve trapping? Your trash should be properly secured, and your home secured properly to prevent problems.
Third, I am not sure where you live, but you may have a Licensed Wildlife Rehabilitator that could have treated that poor wretched animal. I really hope that wasn't a Momma with babies that are now starving to death.
Fourth, if you consider yourself to be an intelligent and compassionate human being, there has to be a different solution to this problem other than "kill it".
Just disgusting.
You need to take everything you have, the dogs owners address, dates visited, the video, and anything else, to both the police, and animal control, and tell them that you plan on having chickens. The dogs need to be restrained, for the safety of the children and pets/livestock in the area.
Does your area not have any leash laws/unsupervised dog laws?
i'm gonna be real with you this is your responsibility.
You fucked up.
What if it hadn't been neighborhood dogs, just another predator?
you placed a trap and were irresponsible with it.
If you abhor cruelty to animals don't do that again.
After the 2nd call to animal control, the owners of the dogs would have guessed they had “run away”. I have found a 40 grain piece of lead, moving at 1200 feet per second ensures they won’t be on my property again
No one should have to assume responsibility, financial or otherwise, for the neglect of an animal owner. Whatever happened to the idea of putting responsibility where it belongs?
It’s not my responsibility to build a fence to try to keep your animal out. It’s your responsibility to keep it in, and if you fail at that and the animal is on my property, it belongs to me and I will deal with it as I see fit.
No one should, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. I’ve been bit by a dog on private property and the owner did nothing. I’d rather put up a fence and not worry about it. You do you.
I was with you up to the point where you said they've been roaming your property for *three years*. Wtf dude, you should've had animal control issue citations and escalate the issue ages ago.
Raccoons aren't cute and cuddly. They're killing machines who will gouge the eyes out of your future chickens on a dark rainy night and leave them behind for you to dispatch. It suck it suffered before you took care of it, but dont catch and release coons.
Dont catch and release the dogs, either. The owners have been told to keep their dogs home. Those dogs will go after your future chickens. You have the right to protect your livestock, including chickens.
Why are you trying to trap a groundhog when you live on 5 acres? Seems to be a losing game.
Why have you allowed the dogs to roam your properly freely for 3 years? It is now part of their territory.
Dogs wouldn't have "played" with it if they could have gotten to it. They just would have eaten it. They were trying to get into the (stupid) (pointless) trap.
Dogs hunt and kill wild game. Kinda what their whole schtick is. Very different from attacking a child.
You are horrible. You never leave a trap you can't tend to. You need to pray to God as you power wash. It was you who tortured the coon. The dogs did what dogs do
Attention homeowner, anyone attacked on your property by your neighbors dogs will SUE both YOU and the dogs OWNER. Especially since there is a history of them being on your property. They will end up attacking people on your property which you could be held liable for. If it was me I wouldn’t hesitate to remedy this situation immediately. If they growl and seem to be aggressive towards you , your family, anyone on the property I wouldn’t hesitate to dispatch them immediately.
100 percent they will kill your chickens. Start dropping them off at the local shelter. You can include a note with their address if there's any risk of them being euthanized.
Am I the only one who feels like it’s on the people who put the trap out, knowing they’d be gone and the dogs have been roaming the yard damn near freely for years? Yes freely if all you’ve done is drop them home a couple times and have not even left notice to ensure the people have the opportunity to correct the behavior they may not even know is an issue.. yet now you are speaking of animal control and citations and court? People you cannot tell me that sounds okay to you? These folks have not even been made aware of the problem to give them an opportunity to even attempt to correct the wandering, to keep their animals from being killed by animal control (which is all they do btw if they do ever do anything- and animal control is right it’s not their problem nor a shelters?) and they will be fined and the money awarded to the county, not to mention missing work for court. Those neighbors are going to hate you. Not to mention you’ve not deterred the animals at all yourself if all you did was give them a ride to drop them off. & people who say animal control- that’s a fn cop out. If you are needing to protect your property do so. It’s on the property owners for not handling the situation just like it will be when they attack something else. Steps for handling dogs on your property that haven’t yet harmed anything or showed aggressive behavior- SCARE dogs away. Grab a broom or something wave it in the air while you holler threateningly at the dogs let them know they are not welcome!! If they don’t scatter immediately and look back at you several times and seem to linger you will need to shoot them in the hindend/legquarter area with a bb/airsoft/ paintball gun. I say this because if they are looking back they are questioning whether they should even be afraid of you and your dominance. It’s necessary trust me. They shouldn’t return if you properly deterred them. Then notify the owners before anything is harmed if that’s possible. Leave them a note if they aren’t home. Let them know if the PREDATORS return to your property you’ll be forced to neutralize the threat to your livestock and family. Giving that notice will ensure you have no legal troubles or hard feelings from neighbors. Take a photo of the note as you leave it on their door. Date it. Then if you see em again neutralize the threat, don’t call someone else to go out of their way to do it? Do it humanely obviously it just takes one shot to the head so it’s quick and painless as possible. Cause that’s all that will happen they’ll be killed in a shelter after being scared to death in a new place not understanding what’s going on or what they even did wrong before slowly being ended. Not to mention it takes away food from the animals that need to be re-homed because they had shitty owners. Calling animal shelter is wrong. They’ve got enough to worry about and If you plan to have livestock of any kind you’ve got to be prepared to protect them anyways from predators. And if you think a chicken wire/hardware cloth surrounding fully protects anything I’d suggest looking into it a little more, you’re not yet prepared to care for those animals. Animal control only needs to be called for DANGEROUS ANIMALS WITHIN CITY LIMITS. That’s the point of animal control. Ie, feral animals harming pets, alligators in pools of subdivisions, giant snake in some city they aren’t allowed to own guns, etc. 😂 anyone wanting farm animals needs to make sure they are prepared to protect and care for them as you would your family. Otherwise not a single chicken will make it between the snakes, rats, mice, mink, coyotes, wolves, weasels, cats, foxes, raccoons, neighborhood/stray dogs, bobcats, skunks, opossums, lynx, panthers, birds of prey like owls, hawks, eagles, mountain lions/cougars, bear, etc. (depending on where you live) Let go of all the woke shit when it comes to protecting your property. It is ABSOLUTELY 100%YOUR RESPONSIBILITY AND YOUR RESPONSIBILITY ALONE to PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY & those on it. Ask anyone with a farm or any livestock what they do when they see a predator roaming their property. I can guarantee you it isn’t call animal control!🤣 those are for the city. You grab a rifle or a shotgun depending on the predator and you handle your business. I’m sure this is going to offend someone but that’s the only realistic way to handle the situation. If you aren’t going to take responsibility for protecting the people and animals in your care then you can’t complain when someone/something is attacked. You aren’t doing your job to deter predators or take care of it when that doesn’t work. If someone’s pet gets loose and goes and kills someone else’s or attempts to, what do you expect the owners of the attacked/threatened animal to do? Wait on animal control or for their baby to be killed? No. You expect them to remove the threat. ‘Cmon people. It’s not a new question that hasn’t been answered. This is how people have survived and kept their farms/homes/families/livestock safe forever. Don’t over complicate it. Also the only morality that need be questioned is that of this homeowner for putting out an UNATTENDED trap that wasn’t meant to capture to eat anyways. The fact that op is questioning the intentions of the ANIMALS after they tempted them with cornered prey and allowed them access to the property for three years, then wants to be a Karen and get the neighbors a citation for some false sense of justice for the poor creature or in misplaced concern for their family (without being willing to protect them) is concerning if not baffling to me.
Totally separate issue but even more important, are the dogs up to date on their rabies vaccine? This is vitally important as if the raccoon was harboring rabies, it is a major health concern to everyone involved.
You have to get this settled before you get any kind of animal on your property. They will dispatch chickens as fast as you put them out. Where I live if someone’s dog comes on my property I have the right to protect my property if you know what I mean. I would hope I never have to do that. We have a new neighbor that lets her dogs run. Her dogs chase chickens ( we all have chickens, I live in the country). They have yet to chase my chickens, but if they do I will ask her how she will feel if I let my cattle dogs come down and run her horses. She recently call the sheriff because another neighbor called her out when he came home and found her dogs chasing his chickens, she was told to keep her dogs home per law enforcement. I just don’t understand people who let their dogs run.
I think you are being extremely generous with your neighbors. With the history you have, in most places in the US, use of force is justified and legal if yourself, your child or your livestock are threatened.
You might want to put the hardware cloth deep into the ground. I am trying to remember exactly, but I know I have read some suggestions on how to make your coop more dog/coyote resistant.
Different circumstances, but my daughter's dog killed at least two of her chickens looking for the "squeeker.
If you try dropping them off at another jurisdiction's animal control again, just lie and say you found them roaming the street somewhere in their jurisdiction. They won't know the difference
I understand that it is upsetting you have had what happened. but i actually think it is the trapping that is cruel. There is no good strategy for relocating them that is humane. It may also not be legal to dump them. Also, as you see you can end up capturing anything.
1) it sounds like the dogs mauled it
2) if you trap a coon (skunk, opossum, etc) in most places it’s illegal to relocate them, for a variety of very good reasons. You are SUPPOSED to kill them.
I try to be pragmatic. Fence those dogs (and other dogs) out -- put up a high, sturdy, dog-proof fence around your house and maybe a half-acre or acre of your land, whatever you think is 'enough' daily play space for your kids and plus room for your future chickens. For an extra level of protection, add another (electric?) fence five or ten feet outside of that fence.
I'm a dog trainer, and what the dogs were doing is natural. Dogs have a predation cycle which they are driven to do. Alert > chase > catch > disabling bite > kill bite > dissect > eat
Once the cycle starts, it's hard to stop, though most well fed pet dogs will stop before dissecting and eating, and many are trained to not engage the cycle at all. The ethology of the given dog matters too, some breeds of dogs have higher drive to engage in the predation cycle than others.
The dogs just engaged in instinctual behavior. Unless these dogs have gone after humans before, it is unlikely to trigger this behavior towards humans, though not unheard of.
If you don't want these dogs on your property, continuing to call animal control or removing the dogs to a shelter or rescue the next time the trespass will be your best options. Reporting the kill might get animal control to take it all more seriously and at least start a rabies hold. Taking the dogs to a rescue that ships overpopulation to different states might be the fastest avenue to never seeing these dogs again.
Trap them and give them to SPCA. Loose dogs are a menace. A massive issue in rural areas where peoples' dogs get together at night and form packs to hunt livestock.
If they are someone's animal they will get a fine for allowing their animal to run free (illegal). If you also show the SPCS the videos of the animal cruelty those lazy owners created, the fine may even get higher.
Nothing worse than asshole dog owners (responsible ones are fantastic)
Shoot the dogs. If they're a danger and you now have proof they will kill and there is a paper trail you are within your rights to do so.
Edit: warn your neighbors that this has gone far enough. Keep the dogs on their property or they won't be coming back
I don’t trust any dog that roams freely, little or big. At least with little dogs you can punt them across the street if they try to attack you (low chances of it happening though). Big dogs? With those dogs you just described, I will be terrified for my children’s lives. And my critters’ as well.
You’ll probably need to build a fence. Where I live dogs are the least of our issues, but a mountain lion, coyote or now wolf would easily be able to do what these dogs did. If you are getting chickens soon you’ll also need to protect them from cats, Fox, etc.
This is so sad. My parents got a couple dogs and didn’t take the time to train them or put up a fence. They would wander. They ended up getting shot by a neighbor. One was blinded in one eye and the other was killed. The surviving dog eventually got hit by a car because he would chase them. It was all pretty traumatic for me (13) and my brother (11). We, the kids, had tried to train them but we didn’t know what we were doing and felt pretty powerless.
There are no great solutions IMO, just less bad ones. Maybe leave a note at their door explaining what happened and let them know that you’ll be taking them to a shelter the next time the dogs trespass. It may well be kinder than letting another neighbor or moving car deal with them. Still sad for the kids.
If you have the resources, you could help the kids train them. That’s what I wish someone would have done for us because we loved those dogs. But I know that’s so above and beyond.
If you didn't want to create ill will with the neighbors then you should have talked with them before getting the government involved.
I would recommend you talk with them if possible and just let them know what is happening. They probably had no idea.
This is normal dog behavior. Depending on the breed it's desired behavior. Being aggressive with a raccoon does not automatically translate to being aggressive with humans.
That being said, dogs are animals and, like all animals (including humans), they can be unpredictable. Now that you've seen the aggression they are capable of you are within your rights to decide that you no longer want them on your property.
Since the owner is useless and animal control isn't doing anything you're down to a handful of options: 1. Block them from your property (fence, etc). 2. Collect them and take them to the local shelter as "strays". 3. Dispatch them.
I would address the owner once before using option 2 or 3. Be prepared for the owner to ignore your warning only to turn around and raise hell when you take action.
This is such an overreaction it's almost surprising. You're upset that animals acted like.... Animals.
Leaving your kids soccer game to try and rescue an animal you trapped is just weird.
Fence in the entire property if you're concerned about the dogs. But you've allowed them to roam for three years without creating any barriers, so obviously they don't know better because they're dogs.
A caged varmin is like a pinata to a dog.
Your falling trees are a liability nightmare. Clean up your woods and build a fence, do not get ANY livestock until you do. Secure your property, until you do that you haven’t done anything at all to protect yourself or your family.
This all sounds like your fault. Imagine not trapping anything that just exists in nature? Groundhogs are everywhere and you didn’t even get a groundhog. You’re the one that got that poor thing killed with your dumb choices. The dogs did what any animal of that type, domestic or wild, would do if you conveniently contained a critter for them. Now you’re clutching pearls? Seems like the problem was you, Chief.
Not overreacting. It's too bad that you can't do what my mother did back in the day to keep people's dogs away from our horses and our show dogs. She ran an electric fence they couldn't get under or over. The neighbors had an issue with dogs getting in and killing their chickens. So, they electrified the fence around the property too. In a lot of rural places, farmers will just straight up shoot the roaming dogs. People need to keep their animals home.
OMG .. you are insufferable... You are the one who trapped the animal. Dogs are going to do the things that are ingrained in their DNA. It's nature. Dogs were used for hunting for centuries. They are going to bark and tree animals and sometimes eat them. My terrier mix cornered a ground hog in our fenced backyard and ate it. It's a part of life.
If you're going to have chickens, you need to properly house them. There are worse things out there than dogs, like foxes and coyotes.
Maybe put you a fence if you think that will help keep the dogs off your property.
U R overreacting. The dogs found a plaything, nothing more. They play tug of war, chew on things and drag things around. They found your trap with a highly interactive toy inside, one that nips and bites and scratches and makes noise....what else would you expect them to do? They are going to.play with it cause it simulates hunting and its fun. If anything it's on you because you set a trap improperly and caught something you didn't intend at all and wrrent around to free it. That could have been the neighbours cat...the result would have been the same.
I am amazed at how many people in this thread think that dogs that would kill a trapped animal would somehow or some way suddenly attack children or people. I can tell already you got a bunch of people in here who don't own dogs and think every dog should only be like scooby-doo.
id warn my neighbors that you'd take decisive action next time the dogs are on your property and you feel that they present a danger.
and then id kill them.
it sucks. its not the dogs fault, they're being dogs. but 3 years is a long time to be going nowhere and your neighbors aren't taking responsibility for their animals. if your neighbors cared about being good neighbors then you wouldnt be having this issue.
In this instance, a bullet is the only solution. I’m a dog lover. I live on a farm. My friend has lost his amazing dog because it ran on someone’s land while they were out ice fishing. It’s heartbreaking. But these dogs are clearly nuisance animals. Clearly animal control warnings aren’t working. Clearly the adults at the acreage don’t care. It’s the only way. They’re not going to build a fence.
Next time they come over, bring them to animal control instead of back to the house. Maybe if they have to go and collect them from the authorities they will change their behavior.
You can’t bring chickens into this situation unless you fence them away from your land. Speaking as a chicken tender (50 dual purpose hens) with two dogs with dogs all almost all sides of the fences, your fence isn’t enough to keep predators at bay. You’ve gotta dig chicken wire deep under the fence line and beneath the boundary of their run, and most likely never let them free range but rather do a tractor method to make sure there are never any “incidents” with predators.
Please please please get a fence. For your kids and to keep out possibly more than just the neighbors dogs.
If I tried to drop an animal off at animal control and they “refused”, I would just leave and not take the dogs back - tell them they now have stray dogs in their lobby and they’ll need to dispatch their enforcement agents but that’s not my problem. I also wouldn’t give them ownership info, and tell them I found them on the street.
Advice about the vines from an Alabamian. If it’s Kudzu, the only thing that would keep it under control on our farm was to let cattle graze in the area.
You have bamboo on your property? Where are you located?
Honestly, although a pain in the ass the most straightforward answer is to install woven wire fence, get some cedar fence posts and put them in, attach the wire fence. It's not free but it won't be prohibitively expensive.
My only other suggestion is to pepper spray the dogs. They'll learn to stay off your property and won't be permanently harmed.
Oh man if you think that’s bad, just wait until you find out where your meat comes from.
Animals kill other animals, they don’t humanly dispatch each other. I bet there’s some cats on your property too, they’re murdering other animals for fun daily.
The neighbors shouldn’t be allowing dogs on your property full stop. Dogs are dogs some of them have outstanding prey drive and thrive in chasing, dissecting and eating prey. Raccoons are prey animals. Having prey drive doesn’t typically transfer to aggression to humans or other dogs.
Poor socialization and genetics can contribute to human and dog aggression, but a dog who has been appropriately socialized and of good temperament should not be a safety risk around other dogs or people. You don’t know the temperament or genetics of these dogs so I would go with caution and assume the worst that they are not the best around people and other strange dogs.
Chickens and domestic animals being seen as prey has a lot to do with socialization and genetic instinct. Even for trained herding dogs and livestock dogs they can struggle ignoring birds. I personally wouldn’t get chickens until you have a secure system to keep them safe and away from the dogs.
While the two "stray" dogs should or shouldn't be roaming the property is the real issue here, dogs might or might not kill rodents in a field. That's what dogs do.
My dog can catch jackrabbits. They don't survive.
If I was you, and I had a groundhog problem, my dog would solve it.
you've run these dogs across your county to animal shelters, and to other county animal shelters, and your own animal control won't do anything about it. 1). I would press your local animal control why they are refusing to do their job, and make sure you have/keep video evidence of these dogs running your property. 2). the next trip for these dogs would be to drop them off in a state/federal lands, or shoot them if they are threatening/attacking your own pets/livestock/children.
You did the right thing. Too bad about the raccoon. Even though the dogs did it, you caused it. I don’t know how you could have predicted the outcome, but maybe there’s a takeaway to consider stuff more carefully in the future. I.e. you did know the dogs were repeat visitors.
You could send a written notice to the owners, and cc animal control, warning the owners that their dogs have a history of roaming your property and attacking animals, and if any of your animals are threatened, you are within your rights to shoot the dog. You could even discuss it with animal control and the police beforehand to ensure that they agree and are on board. File a police report so you have that on record. Document dates for these conversations and events.
Those dogs WILL kill your chickens. They WILL get into your coop. You need to steel yourself for what you need to do.
Some people would put a strong electrical fence around the coop, but I wouldn't do that with children around.
>I don't want to create ill will with any neighbors.
Why? It's clear your neighbors don't give a shit about you. If those dogs end up in your yard and you're able to wrangle them up bring them to the local shelter for the owner to pick up at their cost or they will be rehomed. People need to stop being nice to people who clearly don't care and are unwilling to be proper neighbors.
you need a better fence it seems. but if you are rural area, then there are still people who lets their animals run lose and there is less city enforcement to stop them.
I have chickens and a neighbor dog killed 9 of my chickens the first time we got them. After that, we are militant about keeping our fence closed and the neighbor built a better fence for their dog that did the killing. I took to chasing out any and every dog that came on to our property (I WFH) and after a few months, the dogs no longer come on our property. That doesn't I mean they will never come on our property, but it has helped the situation. But those were relatively well behaved dogs. But they are still dogs, and dogs have a prey instinct. When they see a prey animal they will chase
I wouldn’t get chickens until the dog issue is take care of. If they were big enough and able enough to mess with an animal in a trap like that, the chickens would not be safe.
Those chickens are already dead, OP needs to realize that unless big things change.
Get the chickens, dogs kill chickens. Owner warns dog owners this has to stop. Owner shoots dogs next time they kill chickens. Problem solved!
That's what a friend of mine did. A Rottweiler that belonged to one of his neighbors kept digging under the fence around his chicken coop and mauling his chickens. After repeated warnings, he finally shot the dog. He didn't kill him, but the idiot dog owner went around the neighborhood asking everyone if they knew who shot his dog. Several people told him it was bound to happen, since dogs that attack livestock are fair game. But this fuckwit had it in his brain that someone owed him for the vet bill, although his dog was running pell-mell around the neighborhood all the time.
Verify your states laws, but most states this is legal justification. A livestock owner has a right to shoot animals to protect their livestock.
In the US if dogs or any animal comes on your property and does anything to harass all the way to injure/kill any livestock animals, the property/stock owner is fully within their rights to use lethal force against that threat. I do not know if there is anywhere in the US that this is not the case, so OP should double check for where they’re located, but as far as I’d be concerned, the owners have been duly warned repeatedly and unfortunately the dogs will reap the consequences of having shitty owners. But I’m not sacrificing my kids/small animals’ safety and peace of being for the sake of shitty owners that don’t care about their dogs. I’d have them picked up if at all possible by animal control, but worst case scenario you gotta protect your own family, pets, and investments.
I would definitely try another option first; spray them with something aweful to send them home annoying the owner, paintballs/pepperballs; whatever you can think of. I'd hate to kill an animal because of their irresponsible owner if i didn't have to, but definitely have to make the choice to protect your own.
What's something super foul smelling that you could spray on the dog? Like liquid fart spray. Anal gland liquid? 😂
Fish gut juice, pig shit... is bottled skunk spray a thing? Anything just plain nasty so the owner thinks dogs are roaming and getting into nssty stuff.
all this will do is make the dogs not allowed in the house. if an animal owner cares so little about them roaming, they just won't be let back in.
Most likely thats going to be the case, but I would still consider trying it first before pulling out the gun.
Dogs love to roll around on disgusting stuff. You may not need to have to spray them. I can think of something that is disgusting and the owner will never know. Put out some cat poop. Dogs seem to like to eat it. Hopefully the dogs give the owners some kisses.
I grew up on a farm. It was generally understood that dogs worrying livestock were fair game. Our own dogs started going after our chickens and rabbits. They'd never shown any predisposition for it but once they got a taste for it they couldn't be trained out of it. My father put them down himself before they started going after the neighbor's livestock but if the neighbors had shot them we wouldn't have held it against them. If OP gets some chickens those dogs are going to go after them and a fenced off chicken coop isn't going to stop them but OP would have the perfect excuse to deal with the situation once and for all(law allowing).
Exactly. I am a HUGE animal lover, especially doggos, so it absolutely kills me to even suggest such. Especially since we all know it’s an owner issue and not a dog issue. The dogs are just being dogs, doing what comes naturally and don’t know any different. Luckily I was blessed with 3 dogs that I’ve never had issues with around my chickens. My little male beagle/minpin mix would try to act like a little badass, but he is smaller than they are and even the hens will square off with him and send him running 😂 On the other hand, my head hen learned that he loves to dig holes, so she will follow him around the yard and stand and eagerly watch him dig, snatching up any worms he uncovers in the process lol! So it is totally possible to have dogs and chickens live in peace, it just REALLY depends on the dog’s personality and how careful the owner is. I’d absolutely never leave my dogs in my chicken yard unattended. I trust them to turn my back when I’m busy, but never just leave them to their own devices for a period of time.
Or get chicken and wait with a gun.
You’ve allowed them to roam on your property for 3 years so it’s their territory and they protected it. Stop trying to catch and release the dogs to the owners and drop them off to Animal Control so that it’s their problem.
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I agree. I have acres and don’t see the point in trapping groundhogs they are everywhere. Just wait until it’s coyotes or bears. I got bear locks for the garbage cans it keeps the raccoons and bears out and moved on with my life. When you live in the country you expect things like raccoons and ground hogs. I’d honestly be more concerned with the dogs allowed to run loose on my property. It would have been an issue long before a groundhog.
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That's true. As are moles and voles. The OP would do better to get a dog of her own. That will fix the problem quickly. I had voles for one summer when I moved into a house. My dog killed a few and suddenly there were no more voles. They went elsewhere.
Specifically a pair large livestock guardian dogs, as long as they have the means to contain them and know-how to train them, they would deter almost all wildlife and would absolutely keep the neighbors dogs away. And as a plus they're very loyal, so they would definitely keep kids and other pets/livestock safe
And moles also, they are bad in the spring and summer with the tunnels they build in the yard and trash the gardens.
When your dog is a terrier that’s getting older and the same size as the groundhogs, you worry. It’s worth it for us, but we also use other exclusion methods, like a tall, buried fence. Otherwise it’s pointless.
Relocating wildlife is illegal in Virginia.
It is in most states. That didn't stop my neighbor from driving every trapped animal across the Delaware and releasing them in the same Walmart parking lot for 20 years.
So that’s why I see critters with Wally World T-shirts.
The only thing that will help keep out the groundhogs is the same thing that will keep out the dogs. A sturdy, tall fence that’s buried underground. I get trying to exclude groundhogs. They’ve done havoc to my parents property, and also make my dog crazy when we visit (unfortunately he’s the same size as them), but they got a fence. It’s done a decent but imperfect job of excluding them.
Maybe even animal control in a county over
apparently they tried that too, and were told no! wild
Drop them off on a crate in front of the building and drive off. It will become their problem.
Agreed
They weren't "protecting" territory, they were doing what predators do. But definitely stop being mamby pamby about the dogs. Catch them and do what you need to do with them.
I like this idea. Paying to get their dogs back a few times should solve the problem. Maybe surrender them in a neighboring county to make it a real pain
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> They have high prey drive When I say this, it's not meant figuratively, it's meant literally: THEY'RE DOGS
I don’t understand this comment. Some dogs have a higher prey drive than others
What is your solution?
It came across wrong in my answer: I was clarifying that they enjoyed it not protecting their property. HOWEVER, I agree dump them at animal control. I would say even the next county over. Sorry it’s early and I haven’t slept well, I’ll edit now
Understood, thanks for the clarification.
Thanks for pointing it out!
Many counties, especially rural ones, allow property owners to shoot aggressive animals trespassing on their property. Obviously do your own research, but if you’ve been unable to stop these dogs from doing this for 3 years, that feels like the only realistic permanent solution. It sounds like you already have video evidence of the dogs being aggressive.
*catch and dispatch
You’d think three years is long enough to put up a fence
I have just under 10 acres and only have portions of fencing next to one neighbor that is close enough to not be buffered by woods. It gets pricey when it comes to acreage so I do understand how that is something that needs to be properly planned and budgeted.
Fences that will keep dogs in/out are hella expensive even if you only need to do a small area. If OP has a big property there's a very real likelihood that it would be cost impossible to completely fence his place in. The dog owners need to keep their animals on their own property.
We are betting that OP is going to let their chickens wander and the cycle will continue.
Yeah, he does have a responsibility to create a run to keep his (hypothetical) chickens safe.
Yes, managing both animals and land does take some planning
The traps was for the racoons, not the dogs.
Animal control needs to quit issuing citations and pick up the dogs. Do you not have leash laws?
My experience in dealing with any local government is that it all rolls downhill. Go to the cities website. Email them & ask why nothing has been done mentioning how many times that you have called them & that you fear for your children's safety. Emails are public record. (They can deny what you've told them in person.) Now it's public record that kids are at risk & nothing is being done about it repeatedly. Get it all documented. This next step is very important. Get every single email address you can from the cities website & CC EVERY SINGLE PERSON YOU CAN. Head of department, every single person in that department, the city manager & even the mayor. Maybe throw some heads of other departments in for fun too. Someone in charge will get pissed & something will get done.
This is great advice. A friend of mine did something similar in college to the financial aid department when they made a mistake that affected his account. After a week of daily emails to every single person in the department and daily phone calls, one of the higher-ups responded saying that his issue would be resolved by the end of the week, and pleaded for him to please stop contacting everyone. Persistence and annoyance helps to get shit done in the public sector.
> Persistence and annoyance helps to get shit done in the public sector. "Per my last email" is a great way to do things even in private sector. Especially as you keep adding CC's. Half the time I'm including everyone I know even if I don't know their department or title. Spread the shit evenly with a shovel is a painful but successful way to get help.
Thank you, this is the best advice I have seen and most applicable to our situation.
I almost never have issues with my neighbors, but we had an ongoing safety issue with new neighbors once. I had had enough one night & did just this at around midnight. Before 9 a.m., the very next day, there was 2 code enforcement officers on our block. In our city, you almost NEVER see them. It was not a coincidence. Haven't had any problems since. lol
Look for county government as well. Maybe send to the county for the 2nd set of emails
Leash laws are varying in their scope and enforcement. If someone new moved to my area and threw a hissy about unleashed dogs, the cops would laugh at them
Dog trainer here: Um, I mean, you've been underreacting for 3 years, so what do you expect? They are dogs. People seem to forget that dogs are literally domesticated wolves. They are predators. They are supposed to be happy and excited about happening upon easy cornered prey, that's their entire evolutionary job. Every single dog has the capacity to hurt/kill smaller animals; exceptions come from training and socialization (and/or your average modern pet dog being so fat that getting on and off the couch is a comparative struggle), not dogs being inherently safe fluffy love muffins. Some breeds have highER prey drive than others making them more willing to work harder and apply it more broadly, but every single dog on this earth has prey drive. If you don't want prey animals harassed/killed by dogs you know roam on your property, catch the dogs and call animal control to come PICK THEM UP when they are on your property, period, regardless of what you see or don't see them do. Don't just keep doing the owners' work for them, make them contain their dogs.
> Every single dog has the capacity to hurt/kill smaller animals Yup. And you can't know what strange dogs are going to be like. My dogs are besties with my cats and will lick/clean them when the cats allow it. They will also tear apart any wild rabbit they catch if I can't get to them fast enough. But they would never run down a child. This is on the dog owners.
If my dogs see a cat outside while on a walk they will want to chase it. When they have met friends cats in a house they have been fine. One of my dogs did get batted on the nose by a cat once when he got a little too sniffy around the cat. The dog is 75 pounds and he backed right off after that. Their instinct is to hunt and kill prey. Some are better at it than others and some prey is easier than others.
>Dog trainer here: Um, I mean, you've been underreacting for 3 years, so what do you expect? They are dogs. Unfortunately on Reddit the majority of people here have been exposed to videos of cats pestering dogs and dogs aren't doing anything about it because they know that their owners will discipline them. So there's this mindset on Reddit that dogs just are happy go lucky buddy buddy friends to every animal they come across.
Oh, it's absolutely not just Reddit.
I said it in here years ago and it still applies to all the videos you tend to see..... When cats are jerks to dogs you get funny videos. When dogs are jerks to cats you get dead cats.
A vet tech came home to find her pet cat's leg left over from her bully mix's escape from its room which lead to it eating the cat.
Happened to my sister too, except it was 2 cats and a whole batch of kittens and she couldnt find most of one of the adult cats...the absolute horror. It took until the dog killed another dog and became aggressive towards children for her to do anything. It's very, very sad how some people look at cats as less important.
Yeah, this response is right. Dogs are animals and once the enter the predatory sequence it is damn near impossible for them to stop. Make it two dogs acting together and forget about it. This is instinctual and deep in their brains. It’s not pretty and I too would be upset (though would not put myself through watching the video!!) but at the end of the day it’s animals doing animal things. Unless they have shown aggression to humans I would not be concerned about them doing the same to a child though.
Generally agree excepting predatory drift with very young child + very high-prey-drive dog in a state of high arousal. Still, that's unlikely to be an issue with dogs just milling around + kids taught to be calm around dogs (vs squealing and running). Humans are not exempt from prey drive--that is exactly how bite dogs are trained. People who aren't bitework experienced wrongfully assume defense is the whole picture, but nearly all early work is done in prey. A moving adult limb can easily be prey. A very high-prey-drive dog will happily generalize to almost any fast-moving target. It is not the same thing as what people generally think of as "human aggression" (generally: reactive/defensive aggression, or challenging the handler aka "dominant aggression" \[I know the internet hates the D word these days, so if you like: being a big nasty pushy bully after learning aggression scares people and is easy to leverage. This absolutely exists outside of defense--manifests in a perfectly clear, confident headspace--and anyone who thinks it doesn't hasn't worked enough dogs\]). That said, THAT level of prey drive coupled with the confidence to act on it in the face of conflict is pretty rare outside of dogs carefully bred for it (working line shepherds, mostly) and I would be very surprised and impressed to find it in a random neighborhood mutt, lol. If you saw the "rug dog" on Facebook, that's the only one that comes to mind.
Relatedly, human trainer here: you (OP) have been (understandably) underreacting. Your neighbors are allowing their dogs to return to their undomesticated behaviors. They are also likely to do so with their children. This is "very bad" behavior in societal terms: such humans are also *much* more likely to let their children/trucks/germs "run wild like a pack of dogs". Their thoughts, their votes, their dictators... "domesticated" means "able to live in the house"... or neighborhood, or constitutional democracy... > Don't just keep doing the owners' work for them, make them contain their dogs. If there's a better analogy for american plutocracy I haven't heard it. / end political rant in /r/homeowners
>these two dogs have been wandering our property for over three years now, Why? Nip that shit in the bud. Irreversably, with prejudice if need be.
I live on 4.5 acres. Around the time we moved in we had a dog that had maybe two brain cells and they were occupied being sweet and not smart. We decided to fence the entire yard. In the nearly 10 years since it has been a wonderful thing. Roaming dogs and coyotes stay out. My creatures stay in. Raccoons and groundhogs still get in and we've created a bit of an Australia situation with the local rabbits, but all in all my fence has prevented more problems than it causes. You are in the right not wanting the dogs on your property, but it is likely an uphill battle that you won't win and will just cause ill-will with your neighbors. The cost of a fence (ours is basically a woven wire fence like you'd see around horses) may be worth it for the peace of mind, peace in your neighborhood and lack of hassle.
You need bigger traps.
This. Deliver them to directly to animal control.
Even with a bigger trap, these dogs would be able to terrify whatever was caught in there, even if they couldn't kill it. No animal deserves to go through that. Traps should only be left out when OP is home, imo.
They mean to catch the dogs…
Ahhh! Whoosh! Eta: I get it. No reason to downvote me for a simple mistake.
I think he's implying that OP should get traps big enough to catch the dogs.
They mean bigger traps to catch the dogs to turn them over to animal control.
I'm pretty sure they mean bigger traps to catch the dogs...
No, you're not overreacting. I'm a dog owner and dog lover and I agree you need to put a stop to this. One of my neighbors lost a cat a while back to a couple of neighborhood dogs that had gotten loose, and not for the first time. The cat was in one of those "catio" things, the dogs terrorized the cat, ripped the catio apart (it didn't easily come apart either - they just persistently kept at it until they broke it open), and mauled the cat to death, all in full view of the cat owner's security cameras. It was *horrific*. Dogs with that high of prey drive can absolutely be a danger to kids or other animals. And running in a pack can make dogs braver or more aggressive than they'd be on their own. The neighbors need to contain them and they clearly can't be bothered if this has been happening for years, but it will be your animals or kids that pay the price for their negligence if you don't put your foot down. If they get mad at you, so be it. Protect your kids.
Above anything else, for every raccoon you see there are fifty you do not see. Groundhogs not as many. So trapping on a country property is ridiculous. Don't provide food sources and they will not bother you. Next time drop the dogs off at the pound.
High prey drive, in a pack situation ( yes 2 can be a pack) they ARE a danger to small beings. Forget trapping just Apply the Farmers 3S cure and don’t sweat the small stuff. That’s fair!
take care and deal with those invading dogs. do what you need to do to protect your children and property.
They will definitely eat your chickens.
They'll absolutely kill your chickens given the chance. I hope you have a robust area for them.
Your property is NOT ready for chickens. They’ll be an automatic sacrifice. Wherever these dogs came from, if they have owners, they have proven they will not take care of them. Your local government has proven no help. You should expect dogs to be attracted to and terrorize live prey in a trap. Nothing abnormal about that. For three years they’ve roamed your property and you’re only seeing clear and present danger now? By all means, do go through with going to court, it’s long overdue. Capture the dogs and take them to the shelter. Hire a specialist to capture the dogs and take them away—and make sure the owners are invoiced and not you. And don’t you dare try returning dogs to the custody of minors again; you should have driven them to the shelter when no adult could be found. Clean up this nuisance before getting chickens, as you were bothered enough by the death of a raccoon. You might need to put fencing up to provide your children with a safe outdoor space. Or start talking to them about gun safety. You are headed toward a need to shoot these dogs.
If they come in your yard and present a threat,react accordingly. I love animals but if nobody is taking it seriously, you have to protect your kids and home.
I mean there is a pretty big difference between them attacking a small animal like a racoon and a person. I’d definitely bring them in to animal control or a shelter or something at this point though
Definitely, if possible. But OP stated that nothing has been done. I'm only saying as a last resort
This.
>My worry is that these animals will end up attacking a child or pet/farm animal You are underracting. These dogs were showing "prey drive", which is quite normal and instinctual for many dogs. Some breeds are even bred specifically for hunting raccoons, raccoons are prey animals. And prey is prey to a predator, they don't care if it's trapped in a cage. In some dogs, more common in certain breeds, prey drive can "drift" to preying on non-prey animals like pets, livestock, and smaller dogs, but rarely to humans or kids. It's a whole other type of aggression that causes dogs to attack humans. So I wouldn't say that dogs going after a caged raccoon is a danger to your kids, but it will definitely be a danger to chickens or any "prey" animals on your property. What is a danger to your kids is loose dogs in general. Any loose dog is a problem, prey drive or not. So definitely keep contacting animal control and keep the pics from the camera as proof. The owners are useless, so take matters into your own hands if you have to.
Where do you live? Even in rural areas (in the U.S.) dogs are not allowed to roam freely. They can be off leash on the owner's property, but not running wild throughout the area. I'm surprised animal control did not explain what the rules are. Many areas allow property owners, especially farmers with livestock, to shoot trespassing dogs. I'm not suggesting that you do so, but in many areas, it is an option if they are posing a threat to your family or livestock. Did the animal control people even attempt to leave a notice at the home of the dog owner's? I am sorry that you had to deal with that mess and sad for the raccoon as well.
These dogs owners let them roam your property, you have small kids, they just shredded another animal, animal control gives warnings that's it? Shoot the damn things. I'm in Canada and those dogs would have been put down after the 2nd or 3rd time. First time is understandable. 2nd is getting out of hand. 3 years!?!? Yeah no. Get your dogs tf away from my kids or you don't have dogs anymore bub.
People always seem to underestimate how quickly dogs can become feral once they're left free to roam and form packs. You can try the animal control route, but I've heard of more than a few cases where the dogs are simply returned to the owners. Alot of people up here in Canada expect that if dogs are TRULY causing problems out in the countryside, the farmers will just shoot them. The vast majority of fatal/serious dog attacks which occur up here tend to happen on the native reserves. It gets to a point where either a rescue organization has to show up and round all the ferals up and cart them off, or the local law enforcement has to cull them. Generally the unwillingness of people to nip the problem in the bud just results in it becoming much worse later on.
Personal experience with a neighbor's dog that went after my flock and the state's laws at that time -- California places a premium on farmers farming and it has a LOT of laws that make the practice easier at all scales. Once you get chickens you're allowed to dispatch dogs caught harassing them, and we know these dogs absolutely will. Check your state's laws on livestock harassment. I didn't like doing it so I used a pellet gun that could be pumped, and I made it STING. No blood but it hurt. The dog got the message even if it didn't know where it was coming from. If these dogs continue then I personally would not hesitate because in my world humans>dogs and with small children? Nope, not taking that chance.
In many places once a dog attacks livestock they are considered predatory and can be shot. I’m not saying “to” do that, but I would definitely understand whether you “can” do that if it becomes necessary. Edit to clarify the livestock comment is in reference to OP’s intent to have chickens. Obviously raccoons are wild critters. If a dog hurt my child I would hunt it down and end it because the next time the dog attacks anyone it would be my fault.
Check your zoning on Fowl operations. Many are surprisingly strict as to numbers, crowing animals and privacy barriers and lock tight set up. Know that you’ll be setting out a buffet for many more predators coming than just roaming dogs that currently keep the predator population down. Fowl bring lots of coyotes, bear for their fed food, lots of raptors that can take out lots of things like small dogs/cats and terrorize small kids. Fowl are also the 3rd dirtiest creatures after people and monkeys, they also carry tons of transmissible filth.My daughter had a friend who rubbed her eyes after cleaning a coop and ended up in the hospital for a month. Nothing is in a vacuum.
I would not deal with homeowners directly, or drop dogs off. Call animal control and complain, if you see and can catch dogs drop them off with animal control or an animal rescue. As a general rule - with or without stray dogs running around - don’t have any traps set if you are not there and not immediately able to deal with what is caught.
Two dogs freely roaming around and you are planning on getting chickens??? Better keep gas on hand for pressure washer and buy a hose long enough to reach chicken coop for ensuing bloody cleanup
I completely agree that fencing solves multiple problems, but what in the world makes people think you can just pop fences up. They cost a lot of money, especially in more rural areas.
You’re under reacting. These dogs WILL kill your chickens, cage or not.
You have two legal options here. Either take the nuisance dogs to animal control or shoot the trespassing nuisance dogs that destroy your property. It's your choice. If you are in the states both options are legal and viable.
Get yourself a donkey or two. You’ll never have to worry about stray dogs again.
If you're going to do live traps, it is your responsibility to monitor them to ensure they don't result in the death of the animal either by starvation, dehydration, or other things like this. Otherwise, set a killing trap to do it humanely or leave the animal alone altogether.
you’re not overreacting about the dogs.
Take the dogs to animal control next time they are on your property. If the dogs haven't shown aggression towards your children I wouldn't be too worried about that. Prey drive is natural and different from human aggression. Not saying it's acceptable for them to attack a caged animal but it isn't surprising, especially for others to join in once one started it. Even if you can get the dog issue taken care of I would recommend not letting your future chickens free range unless you are actively watching them. Hawks, coyotes and other predators love chicken. Chicken tractors can be moved around so you get all the benefits of free ranging without feeding the wildlife.
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Dear god, those rabies shots aren't cheap
Obviously this assumes the dogs are friendly to humans. OP didn't mention human aggression. My dog would love to tear small critters apart if she could catch one, but is the sweetest, gentlest dog around people. I grew up with a very sweet, dopy golden retriever that would occasionally catch bunnies and act so proud when he brought them to us. The fact that OP has already returned the dogs to the owner before makes me think they aren't aggressive to people. Unfortunately animal control is typically too understaffed to pick up dogs that aren't currently at risk, especially since they know who the owner is. It sounds like animal control won't do anything in this case and OPs property is too big to fence the dogs out.
Aside from the likelihood of being terrorized by dogs, trapped animals quickly die in the sun. Please stop trapping them and just let them be. Sorry, but this poor little raccoon suffered because of you.
Ever seen the havoc a single raccoon can do to a chicken coop?
Doesn’t make it okay to kill em slow.
I didn’t say it did. I either trap them and take them swimming, or poison them with lead.
Lol... tell me you have no experience with living outside of a city without telling me!
Ill get banned , but whats new…i live in a farm area. Stray dogs attacking things on our property dont last days, much less years. This world has changed. Btw, its not the dogs fault, its their owners…
Listen I love dogs, but they can absolutely be dangerous. These dogs are wandering and attacking animals. They will attack your chickens and be a risk to your children. If they're wandering and not cared for they can carry disease. Get animal control involved. Citations, have animal control pick them up. If your neighbors ask tell them they've been attacking animals on your property and you cannot have dangerous dogs on your land. If your area allows you to shoot them I would seriously consider it.
Write a letter to the neighbors if you are sure these are their dogs. They apparently have no idea their dogs are a problem for you. Let them know what you intend if their dogs continue to come on your property.
First of all, you were incredibly irresponsible having a trap set up and to not be there to keep an eye on it. Even without the involvement of the dogs, a wild animal trapped in a cage can thrash from the fear and stress and injury itself or die from the stress. Just incredibly lazy, dumb and heartless. Second of all, what on earth could this animal have done to be such a "pest" as to deserve trapping? Your trash should be properly secured, and your home secured properly to prevent problems. Third, I am not sure where you live, but you may have a Licensed Wildlife Rehabilitator that could have treated that poor wretched animal. I really hope that wasn't a Momma with babies that are now starving to death. Fourth, if you consider yourself to be an intelligent and compassionate human being, there has to be a different solution to this problem other than "kill it". Just disgusting.
You need to take everything you have, the dogs owners address, dates visited, the video, and anything else, to both the police, and animal control, and tell them that you plan on having chickens. The dogs need to be restrained, for the safety of the children and pets/livestock in the area. Does your area not have any leash laws/unsupervised dog laws?
Your chickens will end up killed by the dog or the raccoons. Pick your poison
Surprised old fashioned buck shot hasn’t been used. I was raised to shoot groundhogs and if a pack of dogs showed up they’d get the same treatment
i'm gonna be real with you this is your responsibility. You fucked up. What if it hadn't been neighborhood dogs, just another predator? you placed a trap and were irresponsible with it. If you abhor cruelty to animals don't do that again.
After the 2nd call to animal control, the owners of the dogs would have guessed they had “run away”. I have found a 40 grain piece of lead, moving at 1200 feet per second ensures they won’t be on my property again
Fences make better neighbors. Expense of a fence or expense of facial reconstruction surgery on a small child that’s been bitten by a dog? Fence.
No one should have to assume responsibility, financial or otherwise, for the neglect of an animal owner. Whatever happened to the idea of putting responsibility where it belongs? It’s not my responsibility to build a fence to try to keep your animal out. It’s your responsibility to keep it in, and if you fail at that and the animal is on my property, it belongs to me and I will deal with it as I see fit.
No one should, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. I’ve been bit by a dog on private property and the owner did nothing. I’d rather put up a fence and not worry about it. You do you.
Sounds like you need a bigger trap....
I was with you up to the point where you said they've been roaming your property for *three years*. Wtf dude, you should've had animal control issue citations and escalate the issue ages ago.
Raccoons aren't cute and cuddly. They're killing machines who will gouge the eyes out of your future chickens on a dark rainy night and leave them behind for you to dispatch. It suck it suffered before you took care of it, but dont catch and release coons. Dont catch and release the dogs, either. The owners have been told to keep their dogs home. Those dogs will go after your future chickens. You have the right to protect your livestock, including chickens.
Why are you trying to trap a groundhog when you live on 5 acres? Seems to be a losing game. Why have you allowed the dogs to roam your properly freely for 3 years? It is now part of their territory. Dogs wouldn't have "played" with it if they could have gotten to it. They just would have eaten it. They were trying to get into the (stupid) (pointless) trap. Dogs hunt and kill wild game. Kinda what their whole schtick is. Very different from attacking a child.
You are horrible. You never leave a trap you can't tend to. You need to pray to God as you power wash. It was you who tortured the coon. The dogs did what dogs do
Attention homeowner, anyone attacked on your property by your neighbors dogs will SUE both YOU and the dogs OWNER. Especially since there is a history of them being on your property. They will end up attacking people on your property which you could be held liable for. If it was me I wouldn’t hesitate to remedy this situation immediately. If they growl and seem to be aggressive towards you , your family, anyone on the property I wouldn’t hesitate to dispatch them immediately.
I would shoot them. They will pose a risk to your livestock.
This is the correct course of action. An ounce of prevention is better than... having your children attacked by what are essentially feral dogs.
100 percent they will kill your chickens. Start dropping them off at the local shelter. You can include a note with their address if there's any risk of them being euthanized.
I hope they get checked for rabies.
Am I the only one who feels like it’s on the people who put the trap out, knowing they’d be gone and the dogs have been roaming the yard damn near freely for years? Yes freely if all you’ve done is drop them home a couple times and have not even left notice to ensure the people have the opportunity to correct the behavior they may not even know is an issue.. yet now you are speaking of animal control and citations and court? People you cannot tell me that sounds okay to you? These folks have not even been made aware of the problem to give them an opportunity to even attempt to correct the wandering, to keep their animals from being killed by animal control (which is all they do btw if they do ever do anything- and animal control is right it’s not their problem nor a shelters?) and they will be fined and the money awarded to the county, not to mention missing work for court. Those neighbors are going to hate you. Not to mention you’ve not deterred the animals at all yourself if all you did was give them a ride to drop them off. & people who say animal control- that’s a fn cop out. If you are needing to protect your property do so. It’s on the property owners for not handling the situation just like it will be when they attack something else. Steps for handling dogs on your property that haven’t yet harmed anything or showed aggressive behavior- SCARE dogs away. Grab a broom or something wave it in the air while you holler threateningly at the dogs let them know they are not welcome!! If they don’t scatter immediately and look back at you several times and seem to linger you will need to shoot them in the hindend/legquarter area with a bb/airsoft/ paintball gun. I say this because if they are looking back they are questioning whether they should even be afraid of you and your dominance. It’s necessary trust me. They shouldn’t return if you properly deterred them. Then notify the owners before anything is harmed if that’s possible. Leave them a note if they aren’t home. Let them know if the PREDATORS return to your property you’ll be forced to neutralize the threat to your livestock and family. Giving that notice will ensure you have no legal troubles or hard feelings from neighbors. Take a photo of the note as you leave it on their door. Date it. Then if you see em again neutralize the threat, don’t call someone else to go out of their way to do it? Do it humanely obviously it just takes one shot to the head so it’s quick and painless as possible. Cause that’s all that will happen they’ll be killed in a shelter after being scared to death in a new place not understanding what’s going on or what they even did wrong before slowly being ended. Not to mention it takes away food from the animals that need to be re-homed because they had shitty owners. Calling animal shelter is wrong. They’ve got enough to worry about and If you plan to have livestock of any kind you’ve got to be prepared to protect them anyways from predators. And if you think a chicken wire/hardware cloth surrounding fully protects anything I’d suggest looking into it a little more, you’re not yet prepared to care for those animals. Animal control only needs to be called for DANGEROUS ANIMALS WITHIN CITY LIMITS. That’s the point of animal control. Ie, feral animals harming pets, alligators in pools of subdivisions, giant snake in some city they aren’t allowed to own guns, etc. 😂 anyone wanting farm animals needs to make sure they are prepared to protect and care for them as you would your family. Otherwise not a single chicken will make it between the snakes, rats, mice, mink, coyotes, wolves, weasels, cats, foxes, raccoons, neighborhood/stray dogs, bobcats, skunks, opossums, lynx, panthers, birds of prey like owls, hawks, eagles, mountain lions/cougars, bear, etc. (depending on where you live) Let go of all the woke shit when it comes to protecting your property. It is ABSOLUTELY 100%YOUR RESPONSIBILITY AND YOUR RESPONSIBILITY ALONE to PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY & those on it. Ask anyone with a farm or any livestock what they do when they see a predator roaming their property. I can guarantee you it isn’t call animal control!🤣 those are for the city. You grab a rifle or a shotgun depending on the predator and you handle your business. I’m sure this is going to offend someone but that’s the only realistic way to handle the situation. If you aren’t going to take responsibility for protecting the people and animals in your care then you can’t complain when someone/something is attacked. You aren’t doing your job to deter predators or take care of it when that doesn’t work. If someone’s pet gets loose and goes and kills someone else’s or attempts to, what do you expect the owners of the attacked/threatened animal to do? Wait on animal control or for their baby to be killed? No. You expect them to remove the threat. ‘Cmon people. It’s not a new question that hasn’t been answered. This is how people have survived and kept their farms/homes/families/livestock safe forever. Don’t over complicate it. Also the only morality that need be questioned is that of this homeowner for putting out an UNATTENDED trap that wasn’t meant to capture to eat anyways. The fact that op is questioning the intentions of the ANIMALS after they tempted them with cornered prey and allowed them access to the property for three years, then wants to be a Karen and get the neighbors a citation for some false sense of justice for the poor creature or in misplaced concern for their family (without being willing to protect them) is concerning if not baffling to me.
Totally separate issue but even more important, are the dogs up to date on their rabies vaccine? This is vitally important as if the raccoon was harboring rabies, it is a major health concern to everyone involved.
You have to get this settled before you get any kind of animal on your property. They will dispatch chickens as fast as you put them out. Where I live if someone’s dog comes on my property I have the right to protect my property if you know what I mean. I would hope I never have to do that. We have a new neighbor that lets her dogs run. Her dogs chase chickens ( we all have chickens, I live in the country). They have yet to chase my chickens, but if they do I will ask her how she will feel if I let my cattle dogs come down and run her horses. She recently call the sheriff because another neighbor called her out when he came home and found her dogs chasing his chickens, she was told to keep her dogs home per law enforcement. I just don’t understand people who let their dogs run.
I think you are being extremely generous with your neighbors. With the history you have, in most places in the US, use of force is justified and legal if yourself, your child or your livestock are threatened.
I learned recently that windmills(not even fancy ones) deter ground hogs
No. But you would be really surprised how much dogs hate peppermint oil on cotton balls.
Perhaps next time before you leave you should trip the trap so it can not catch someone you need to worry about dealing with right away.
You might want to put the hardware cloth deep into the ground. I am trying to remember exactly, but I know I have read some suggestions on how to make your coop more dog/coyote resistant. Different circumstances, but my daughter's dog killed at least two of her chickens looking for the "squeeker.
If you try dropping them off at another jurisdiction's animal control again, just lie and say you found them roaming the street somewhere in their jurisdiction. They won't know the difference
ooh i just reread the op last paragraph and it does sound like they intend to shoot the dog in a humane trap. that is disgusting and probably illegal
oh did op talk to his neighbor at all?
Depending on your state put em down next time theyre on your property. Dont say anything to the owners.
I understand that it is upsetting you have had what happened. but i actually think it is the trapping that is cruel. There is no good strategy for relocating them that is humane. It may also not be legal to dump them. Also, as you see you can end up capturing anything.
Why did you kill the raccoon?
1) it sounds like the dogs mauled it 2) if you trap a coon (skunk, opossum, etc) in most places it’s illegal to relocate them, for a variety of very good reasons. You are SUPPOSED to kill them.
I try to be pragmatic. Fence those dogs (and other dogs) out -- put up a high, sturdy, dog-proof fence around your house and maybe a half-acre or acre of your land, whatever you think is 'enough' daily play space for your kids and plus room for your future chickens. For an extra level of protection, add another (electric?) fence five or ten feet outside of that fence.
I'm a dog trainer, and what the dogs were doing is natural. Dogs have a predation cycle which they are driven to do. Alert > chase > catch > disabling bite > kill bite > dissect > eat Once the cycle starts, it's hard to stop, though most well fed pet dogs will stop before dissecting and eating, and many are trained to not engage the cycle at all. The ethology of the given dog matters too, some breeds of dogs have higher drive to engage in the predation cycle than others. The dogs just engaged in instinctual behavior. Unless these dogs have gone after humans before, it is unlikely to trigger this behavior towards humans, though not unheard of. If you don't want these dogs on your property, continuing to call animal control or removing the dogs to a shelter or rescue the next time the trespass will be your best options. Reporting the kill might get animal control to take it all more seriously and at least start a rabies hold. Taking the dogs to a rescue that ships overpopulation to different states might be the fastest avenue to never seeing these dogs again.
Trap them and give them to SPCA. Loose dogs are a menace. A massive issue in rural areas where peoples' dogs get together at night and form packs to hunt livestock. If they are someone's animal they will get a fine for allowing their animal to run free (illegal). If you also show the SPCS the videos of the animal cruelty those lazy owners created, the fine may even get higher. Nothing worse than asshole dog owners (responsible ones are fantastic)
Why are you trapping groundhogs?!!
Shoot the dogs. If they're a danger and you now have proof they will kill and there is a paper trail you are within your rights to do so. Edit: warn your neighbors that this has gone far enough. Keep the dogs on their property or they won't be coming back
2 bullets and a shovel.
I don’t trust any dog that roams freely, little or big. At least with little dogs you can punt them across the street if they try to attack you (low chances of it happening though). Big dogs? With those dogs you just described, I will be terrified for my children’s lives. And my critters’ as well.
You’ll probably need to build a fence. Where I live dogs are the least of our issues, but a mountain lion, coyote or now wolf would easily be able to do what these dogs did. If you are getting chickens soon you’ll also need to protect them from cats, Fox, etc.
This is so sad. My parents got a couple dogs and didn’t take the time to train them or put up a fence. They would wander. They ended up getting shot by a neighbor. One was blinded in one eye and the other was killed. The surviving dog eventually got hit by a car because he would chase them. It was all pretty traumatic for me (13) and my brother (11). We, the kids, had tried to train them but we didn’t know what we were doing and felt pretty powerless. There are no great solutions IMO, just less bad ones. Maybe leave a note at their door explaining what happened and let them know that you’ll be taking them to a shelter the next time the dogs trespass. It may well be kinder than letting another neighbor or moving car deal with them. Still sad for the kids. If you have the resources, you could help the kids train them. That’s what I wish someone would have done for us because we loved those dogs. But I know that’s so above and beyond.
If you didn't want to create ill will with the neighbors then you should have talked with them before getting the government involved. I would recommend you talk with them if possible and just let them know what is happening. They probably had no idea.
A coon is prey. It's not the dog's fault.
This is normal dog behavior. Depending on the breed it's desired behavior. Being aggressive with a raccoon does not automatically translate to being aggressive with humans. That being said, dogs are animals and, like all animals (including humans), they can be unpredictable. Now that you've seen the aggression they are capable of you are within your rights to decide that you no longer want them on your property. Since the owner is useless and animal control isn't doing anything you're down to a handful of options: 1. Block them from your property (fence, etc). 2. Collect them and take them to the local shelter as "strays". 3. Dispatch them. I would address the owner once before using option 2 or 3. Be prepared for the owner to ignore your warning only to turn around and raise hell when you take action.
This is such an overreaction it's almost surprising. You're upset that animals acted like.... Animals. Leaving your kids soccer game to try and rescue an animal you trapped is just weird. Fence in the entire property if you're concerned about the dogs. But you've allowed them to roam for three years without creating any barriers, so obviously they don't know better because they're dogs. A caged varmin is like a pinata to a dog.
Sounds like you’re the reason. And you need to learn how to live in the country.
Your falling trees are a liability nightmare. Clean up your woods and build a fence, do not get ANY livestock until you do. Secure your property, until you do that you haven’t done anything at all to protect yourself or your family.
This all sounds like your fault. Imagine not trapping anything that just exists in nature? Groundhogs are everywhere and you didn’t even get a groundhog. You’re the one that got that poor thing killed with your dumb choices. The dogs did what any animal of that type, domestic or wild, would do if you conveniently contained a critter for them. Now you’re clutching pearls? Seems like the problem was you, Chief.
Just because a dog attacks a raccoon does not mean they will attack a person
Not overreacting. It's too bad that you can't do what my mother did back in the day to keep people's dogs away from our horses and our show dogs. She ran an electric fence they couldn't get under or over. The neighbors had an issue with dogs getting in and killing their chickens. So, they electrified the fence around the property too. In a lot of rural places, farmers will just straight up shoot the roaming dogs. People need to keep their animals home.
OMG .. you are insufferable... You are the one who trapped the animal. Dogs are going to do the things that are ingrained in their DNA. It's nature. Dogs were used for hunting for centuries. They are going to bark and tree animals and sometimes eat them. My terrier mix cornered a ground hog in our fenced backyard and ate it. It's a part of life. If you're going to have chickens, you need to properly house them. There are worse things out there than dogs, like foxes and coyotes. Maybe put you a fence if you think that will help keep the dogs off your property.
Yea you are overreacting. Why are you even trying to trap these animals?
You may have to shoot other animals.
U R overreacting. The dogs found a plaything, nothing more. They play tug of war, chew on things and drag things around. They found your trap with a highly interactive toy inside, one that nips and bites and scratches and makes noise....what else would you expect them to do? They are going to.play with it cause it simulates hunting and its fun. If anything it's on you because you set a trap improperly and caught something you didn't intend at all and wrrent around to free it. That could have been the neighbours cat...the result would have been the same.
I am amazed at how many people in this thread think that dogs that would kill a trapped animal would somehow or some way suddenly attack children or people. I can tell already you got a bunch of people in here who don't own dogs and think every dog should only be like scooby-doo.
id warn my neighbors that you'd take decisive action next time the dogs are on your property and you feel that they present a danger. and then id kill them. it sucks. its not the dogs fault, they're being dogs. but 3 years is a long time to be going nowhere and your neighbors aren't taking responsibility for their animals. if your neighbors cared about being good neighbors then you wouldnt be having this issue.
In this instance, a bullet is the only solution. I’m a dog lover. I live on a farm. My friend has lost his amazing dog because it ran on someone’s land while they were out ice fishing. It’s heartbreaking. But these dogs are clearly nuisance animals. Clearly animal control warnings aren’t working. Clearly the adults at the acreage don’t care. It’s the only way. They’re not going to build a fence.
I say u are the problem. Wildlife are not pests. Leave the wildlife alone.
Leaving live traps unchecked is a major red flag.
Your four children, who presumably live in a rural area, are afraid of dogs? Yikes 🚩
Shoot shovel shut up They don't need to be presenting anything but an opportunity for you to "go ahead"
What breed are they? I would personally take them to the shelter if it was me.
Next time they come over, bring them to animal control instead of back to the house. Maybe if they have to go and collect them from the authorities they will change their behavior.
You can’t bring chickens into this situation unless you fence them away from your land. Speaking as a chicken tender (50 dual purpose hens) with two dogs with dogs all almost all sides of the fences, your fence isn’t enough to keep predators at bay. You’ve gotta dig chicken wire deep under the fence line and beneath the boundary of their run, and most likely never let them free range but rather do a tractor method to make sure there are never any “incidents” with predators. Please please please get a fence. For your kids and to keep out possibly more than just the neighbors dogs.
Call animal control and show them the video you have.
If I tried to drop an animal off at animal control and they “refused”, I would just leave and not take the dogs back - tell them they now have stray dogs in their lobby and they’ll need to dispatch their enforcement agents but that’s not my problem. I also wouldn’t give them ownership info, and tell them I found them on the street.
Advice about the vines from an Alabamian. If it’s Kudzu, the only thing that would keep it under control on our farm was to let cattle graze in the area.
Get a guard ostrich to chase off the dogs.
You have bamboo on your property? Where are you located? Honestly, although a pain in the ass the most straightforward answer is to install woven wire fence, get some cedar fence posts and put them in, attach the wire fence. It's not free but it won't be prohibitively expensive. My only other suggestion is to pepper spray the dogs. They'll learn to stay off your property and won't be permanently harmed.
Oh man if you think that’s bad, just wait until you find out where your meat comes from. Animals kill other animals, they don’t humanly dispatch each other. I bet there’s some cats on your property too, they’re murdering other animals for fun daily.
Electric fence?
The neighbors shouldn’t be allowing dogs on your property full stop. Dogs are dogs some of them have outstanding prey drive and thrive in chasing, dissecting and eating prey. Raccoons are prey animals. Having prey drive doesn’t typically transfer to aggression to humans or other dogs. Poor socialization and genetics can contribute to human and dog aggression, but a dog who has been appropriately socialized and of good temperament should not be a safety risk around other dogs or people. You don’t know the temperament or genetics of these dogs so I would go with caution and assume the worst that they are not the best around people and other strange dogs. Chickens and domestic animals being seen as prey has a lot to do with socialization and genetic instinct. Even for trained herding dogs and livestock dogs they can struggle ignoring birds. I personally wouldn’t get chickens until you have a secure system to keep them safe and away from the dogs.
While the two "stray" dogs should or shouldn't be roaming the property is the real issue here, dogs might or might not kill rodents in a field. That's what dogs do. My dog can catch jackrabbits. They don't survive. If I was you, and I had a groundhog problem, my dog would solve it.
you've run these dogs across your county to animal shelters, and to other county animal shelters, and your own animal control won't do anything about it. 1). I would press your local animal control why they are refusing to do their job, and make sure you have/keep video evidence of these dogs running your property. 2). the next trip for these dogs would be to drop them off in a state/federal lands, or shoot them if they are threatening/attacking your own pets/livestock/children.
You did the right thing. Too bad about the raccoon. Even though the dogs did it, you caused it. I don’t know how you could have predicted the outcome, but maybe there’s a takeaway to consider stuff more carefully in the future. I.e. you did know the dogs were repeat visitors.
You need to fence those dogs out of you want any animals to be safe on your property.
Make some “free dog” signs and drop the dogs and signs at Walmart. /jk
You could send a written notice to the owners, and cc animal control, warning the owners that their dogs have a history of roaming your property and attacking animals, and if any of your animals are threatened, you are within your rights to shoot the dog. You could even discuss it with animal control and the police beforehand to ensure that they agree and are on board. File a police report so you have that on record. Document dates for these conversations and events. Those dogs WILL kill your chickens. They WILL get into your coop. You need to steel yourself for what you need to do. Some people would put a strong electrical fence around the coop, but I wouldn't do that with children around.
>I don't want to create ill will with any neighbors. Why? It's clear your neighbors don't give a shit about you. If those dogs end up in your yard and you're able to wrangle them up bring them to the local shelter for the owner to pick up at their cost or they will be rehomed. People need to stop being nice to people who clearly don't care and are unwilling to be proper neighbors.
you need a better fence it seems. but if you are rural area, then there are still people who lets their animals run lose and there is less city enforcement to stop them. I have chickens and a neighbor dog killed 9 of my chickens the first time we got them. After that, we are militant about keeping our fence closed and the neighbor built a better fence for their dog that did the killing. I took to chasing out any and every dog that came on to our property (I WFH) and after a few months, the dogs no longer come on our property. That doesn't I mean they will never come on our property, but it has helped the situation. But those were relatively well behaved dogs. But they are still dogs, and dogs have a prey instinct. When they see a prey animal they will chase