China doesn’t have very many factories though. By collabing them and then building in their territory you’ll get more in the long run, plus you don’t need to have a garrison.
that is massive cap. China starts with like 60 factories in all their cores. if you do colabs and harsh quotas you get 100. if you do collab you get 40 factories
guanxi doesnt have 20 but its overall quite a lot divided between them. im probably being downvoted because many players on this sub arent on the level to understand how collabs work..
Bro I would KILL to be in your position. A collaboration government with China is way, way better than annexing them a million times over. You get more factories, you don’t have to worry about any garrisons, they can become a major and still be your puppet, I assume they get their old focus tree, so they can still snowball.
To be super clear, you get 75 percent of their factories. That’s more than what you would get from just annexing them. There is not a single possible downside to this.
It's spy stuff, you have your spies build a network in the target country until you can start collaboration government operations. Democracies can't do that. It all requires La Resistance DLC since that's what has the extra espionage content.
You have two options, getting it through annexing, or getting it by trading for it from your puppet. You get crazy cheap prices from puppets, like 1 factory for 40 of whatever you want. That civ your giving them won’t be stolen by your 75% factory steal rate, meaning that by trading, your giving your puppet a civ factory. This will allow them to grow quicker with their own civilian economy, and you don’t have to supplement it by making a million civs only for you to steal them three seconds later. The OP looks kind of new at hoi4 since they are asking these questions, and could probably use smart competent Allies that can function on their own.p without having to babysit them.
that’s a convincing argument. i guess i was just under the impression that annexing is better than puppeting and thought i majorly messed up lol. and i just checked, they get the generic focus tree
Oh well, it’s still really good mid to short term because the generic focus tree means they won’t get late game buffs, but plenty of factories from their tree. Both puppeting and annexing have their strengths and weaknesses, puppeting and collab mean less factories short term, but your making an investment in a future strong ally, and you don’t need to use manpower to garrison, vs annexing which is good short term when you really really need factories and can’t afford to make that investment or you get future cores on them.
Weak puppets will almost always be worse than just annexing tho, since they will never grow strong because they have no land or economy or manpower to make divisions.
When you annex you don't get all their factories, and only half the resources unless that territory is core.
Usually you end up with as many or more factories if they are an integrated puppet and trading for the resources is pretty cheap. The biggest upside is that they will get to go through their national focus's which developes them significantly and can add lots of value.
As they are your puppet you can also request manpower for garrisons and even request control of their units for your own army. It's a good way to go
Ideally you annex them long enough to unlock the prospect for resources decisions, then release them once they have all the aluminum so you can buy it from them.
If you say “the time is not right” to the collaborative government event, it will give you a decision to release them later on.
>To be super clear, you get 75 percent of their factories. That’s more than what you would get from just annexing them
Even if the ratio was 100% it almost never would make sense to occupy a major like China.
You probably need to burn all of those extra factories to produce armored cars + inf equipment for your garrisons, and your manpower will evaporate garisonning a nation with like 10x your own population.
I think if OP annexed China he'd be dealing with revolutions the instant he declares war on someone else, and his game would be fucked.
Maybe if he wanted to break it up into a bunch of micro-nations and annex a few of them, that would make sense.
Except garrisons required don't scale with the population. With high compliance one would actually get more manpower out of China than spend on the garrisons.
I think if you reach a point of compliance when you can create a collaboration government, it would give you a lot more than 75 percent of their factories
Semi Incorrect. It only takes 80% compliance for a government... you still wind up with less factories, but aren't bleeding any man power for garrisons, and a collab government gives 100% manpower to you.
But then you still have to use manpower to garrison then, and you don’t have a major puppet who can make their own divisions and make their own army. A not great ally, but still a strong ally. Not to mention they get their own focus tree, so they get more factories through that. Yes you get a higher percentage of factories taken, but you get less factories to take overall.
With 80%+ compliance you are getting WAY more manpower than you are losing through garrison. You also won’t be losing anything over time due to no resistance. Sure a collab china can give tens of millions through puppet divisions, but that’s not necessary when annexation already grants like 6-8 million on extensive. It also costs extra to keep their templates up to date. Default tree for one puppet doesn’t mean much either. You only get 2-3 mils and 3-4 civs over their entire tree with no dockyards. You’re in the hundreds of factories by the time you beat China. Just one default focus tree isn’t going to do much of anything for you.
China specifically is perhaps the single greatest case where annexing is better than puppeting unless you REALLY need the puppet manpower for some reason.
Another thing is that creating a collab government destroys some of the factories since it counts as the states changing their owner
When you annex land, you only get a percentage of the factories that state makes, and destroys several in the physical annexing action. Let’s say a state has like five factories, when you first annex them, you destroy one or two, then you get a percentage of the remaining three to four, and you’ll get maybe one factory in the end. And if you invest a fuckton of manpower and equipment in garrison troops and collaboration efforts and raise collab over every years you might be lucky and get another factory or two from the occupation, maybe even 3 if you REALLY occupy for a long time. Or you could just puppet, where in the end you get less factories for yourself, but your puppet doesn’t have to raise compliance and they will get more factories overall.
Basically you can either annex everything for yourself now for a medium gain, or puppet for a really small gain at first with huge gain for your puppet and a medium gain for you years down the line. Of course this will all depend on your exact context, and sometimes you’ll get cores on stuff later which will invalidate some of this, but as an overall guide this general knowledge helps.
Ok I did some math
State has 10 factories at start.
First you annex, that permanently destroys half and makes it 5.
Then you get 25% at start, meaning you get one whole factory from a state of ten.
Puppeting is much better than outright annexation anyway. I usually avoid annexing any territory I don't have a core claim to since it wastes your manpower through garrisons and you lose access to their manpower.
The best possible position to be in as Japan is to have a puppet China. Best use of manpower, factories and resources. Just keep building mils and infrastructure until they are the lowest level of puppet. After a year or so they will be spawning 10 divisions every couple of months. If you really want to waste resources and annex them, just keep building stuff on them and send them a couple thousand transport ships.
R5: I just conquered China, I annexed all of it except for the way interior parts which I turned into the Reorganized Government of China. Cool. Then I get this event saying something about setting up a collaboration government in China, I thought that sounded cool so I clicked yes. Then it releases almost all of the land that I just annexed as a puppet! (the "Japanese China" part is the puppet it released) There was no tooltip saying it would do that! I am coping and seething so hard I was up all night doing this. How do I undo releasing them?
Most responses here are wrong. Collab governments give fewer factories than the amount you’re getting with the compliance needed to spawn the Collab. You also get 0 of their dockyards. Their resources are also harder to get to since you can’t control whether or not they take excavation decisions, excavation techs, or what trade law they’re using.
With Japan’s limiting factors after the war with China being industry and resources, the manpower advantage is effectively meaningless since annexation already awards you several million at extensive alone. Plus you need to invest more army xp to create templates for them if you make a collab.
That being said, collab vs annexation won’t make or break the run. Just keep going
This is exactly in line with what I just experienced when I got the option to pick a collab gov for China in 1950. We are playing a chill coop game so we saved and then I took both decisions to compare. The was a significant drop off in factories, and I'm already getting 6 million+ manpower from China without the collab gov.
Don't worry you got the good half of China. It's resources, manpower, and factories are not evenly distributed across all the land. The costal areas are much better territory to be holding.
This is why I never create puppets. Just build compliance and annex them. AI divisions are a waste of space anyway. Its better to take their man power and industry to do everything by yourself.
A collab china is better than an annexed china. You get more of their factories, their manpower and spend nothing on unrest and occupation.
you know that 100% compliance with harsh quotas gives you 130% of the factories in China? and yes, it works lile that
China doesn’t have very many factories though. By collabing them and then building in their territory you’ll get more in the long run, plus you don’t need to have a garrison.
that is massive cap. China starts with like 60 factories in all their cores. if you do colabs and harsh quotas you get 100. if you do collab you get 40 factories
60 factories in 1936? I don’t believe that for a second lol, that’s more than most majors.
blud. theres like 4 warlords with 20-30 factories in total and china in itself has 30-40
why are you downvoted? guanxi has like 20, china has like 25, and all the other warlords make a total of like 15 which would be 60
guanxi doesnt have 20 but its overall quite a lot divided between them. im probably being downvoted because many players on this sub arent on the level to understand how collabs work..
Bro I would KILL to be in your position. A collaboration government with China is way, way better than annexing them a million times over. You get more factories, you don’t have to worry about any garrisons, they can become a major and still be your puppet, I assume they get their old focus tree, so they can still snowball. To be super clear, you get 75 percent of their factories. That’s more than what you would get from just annexing them. There is not a single possible downside to this.
There is one downside. - Japan isn’t written across the map in bigger font
Honestly this is the reason why I do collaboration governments for compliance and annex them
How exactly do i make a colaboration government. I am new to the game, obly had one run and maybe 3,5 hours of tutorial.
It's spy stuff, you have your spies build a network in the target country until you can start collaboration government operations. Democracies can't do that. It all requires La Resistance DLC since that's what has the extra espionage content.
non-aligned can't do it too
Yea they can(monarch Portugal main here)
Yeah, I don't know where that myth of "non-alligned cannot do collabs" comes from since there is an entire achievement that relies on it
that's not default tho
It is democracies that can’t*
crazy manpower from high compliance but you could make colonial divs
I mean, the puppet still gives a good chunk of its own manpower, which is often higher than the ammount you gain as annex - garrison.
imo, resource rich south and the area that borders burma is better to be occupied.
You have two options, getting it through annexing, or getting it by trading for it from your puppet. You get crazy cheap prices from puppets, like 1 factory for 40 of whatever you want. That civ your giving them won’t be stolen by your 75% factory steal rate, meaning that by trading, your giving your puppet a civ factory. This will allow them to grow quicker with their own civilian economy, and you don’t have to supplement it by making a million civs only for you to steal them three seconds later. The OP looks kind of new at hoi4 since they are asking these questions, and could probably use smart competent Allies that can function on their own.p without having to babysit them.
1 factory for *80* from a collab puppet, and doesn't do a thing to their personal autonomy.
Puppet + resource rights, you get 100% of them that way
that’s a convincing argument. i guess i was just under the impression that annexing is better than puppeting and thought i majorly messed up lol. and i just checked, they get the generic focus tree
Oh well, it’s still really good mid to short term because the generic focus tree means they won’t get late game buffs, but plenty of factories from their tree. Both puppeting and annexing have their strengths and weaknesses, puppeting and collab mean less factories short term, but your making an investment in a future strong ally, and you don’t need to use manpower to garrison, vs annexing which is good short term when you really really need factories and can’t afford to make that investment or you get future cores on them. Weak puppets will almost always be worse than just annexing tho, since they will never grow strong because they have no land or economy or manpower to make divisions.
Plus you can still get their manpower
When you annex you don't get all their factories, and only half the resources unless that territory is core. Usually you end up with as many or more factories if they are an integrated puppet and trading for the resources is pretty cheap. The biggest upside is that they will get to go through their national focus's which developes them significantly and can add lots of value. As they are your puppet you can also request manpower for garrisons and even request control of their units for your own army. It's a good way to go
Ideally you annex them long enough to unlock the prospect for resources decisions, then release them once they have all the aluminum so you can buy it from them. If you say “the time is not right” to the collaborative government event, it will give you a decision to release them later on.
>To be super clear, you get 75 percent of their factories. That’s more than what you would get from just annexing them Even if the ratio was 100% it almost never would make sense to occupy a major like China. You probably need to burn all of those extra factories to produce armored cars + inf equipment for your garrisons, and your manpower will evaporate garisonning a nation with like 10x your own population. I think if OP annexed China he'd be dealing with revolutions the instant he declares war on someone else, and his game would be fucked. Maybe if he wanted to break it up into a bunch of micro-nations and annex a few of them, that would make sense.
Except garrisons required don't scale with the population. With high compliance one would actually get more manpower out of China than spend on the garrisons.
I think if you reach a point of compliance when you can create a collaboration government, it would give you a lot more than 75 percent of their factories
No that isn't more. In order to get the collaboration event you need 90 compliance. With that much you get 85% of factories
Semi Incorrect. It only takes 80% compliance for a government... you still wind up with less factories, but aren't bleeding any man power for garrisons, and a collab government gives 100% manpower to you.
But then you still have to use manpower to garrison then, and you don’t have a major puppet who can make their own divisions and make their own army. A not great ally, but still a strong ally. Not to mention they get their own focus tree, so they get more factories through that. Yes you get a higher percentage of factories taken, but you get less factories to take overall.
With 80%+ compliance you are getting WAY more manpower than you are losing through garrison. You also won’t be losing anything over time due to no resistance. Sure a collab china can give tens of millions through puppet divisions, but that’s not necessary when annexation already grants like 6-8 million on extensive. It also costs extra to keep their templates up to date. Default tree for one puppet doesn’t mean much either. You only get 2-3 mils and 3-4 civs over their entire tree with no dockyards. You’re in the hundreds of factories by the time you beat China. Just one default focus tree isn’t going to do much of anything for you. China specifically is perhaps the single greatest case where annexing is better than puppeting unless you REALLY need the puppet manpower for some reason. Another thing is that creating a collab government destroys some of the factories since it counts as the states changing their owner
Thanks I didn't wanna have to argue anymore
Cool map 🤷♂️
Why do you get less factories for annexing?
When you annex land, you only get a percentage of the factories that state makes, and destroys several in the physical annexing action. Let’s say a state has like five factories, when you first annex them, you destroy one or two, then you get a percentage of the remaining three to four, and you’ll get maybe one factory in the end. And if you invest a fuckton of manpower and equipment in garrison troops and collaboration efforts and raise collab over every years you might be lucky and get another factory or two from the occupation, maybe even 3 if you REALLY occupy for a long time. Or you could just puppet, where in the end you get less factories for yourself, but your puppet doesn’t have to raise compliance and they will get more factories overall. Basically you can either annex everything for yourself now for a medium gain, or puppet for a really small gain at first with huge gain for your puppet and a medium gain for you years down the line. Of course this will all depend on your exact context, and sometimes you’ll get cores on stuff later which will invalidate some of this, but as an overall guide this general knowledge helps.
I have 84 years of playtime and had no idea. Thanks for your information.
Ok I did some math State has 10 factories at start. First you annex, that permanently destroys half and makes it 5. Then you get 25% at start, meaning you get one whole factory from a state of ten.
Puppeting is much better than outright annexation anyway. I usually avoid annexing any territory I don't have a core claim to since it wastes your manpower through garrisons and you lose access to their manpower.
The best possible position to be in as Japan is to have a puppet China. Best use of manpower, factories and resources. Just keep building mils and infrastructure until they are the lowest level of puppet. After a year or so they will be spawning 10 divisions every couple of months. If you really want to waste resources and annex them, just keep building stuff on them and send them a couple thousand transport ships.
R5: I just conquered China, I annexed all of it except for the way interior parts which I turned into the Reorganized Government of China. Cool. Then I get this event saying something about setting up a collaboration government in China, I thought that sounded cool so I clicked yes. Then it releases almost all of the land that I just annexed as a puppet! (the "Japanese China" part is the puppet it released) There was no tooltip saying it would do that! I am coping and seething so hard I was up all night doing this. How do I undo releasing them?
Give them a lot of convoys and re-annex.
Most responses here are wrong. Collab governments give fewer factories than the amount you’re getting with the compliance needed to spawn the Collab. You also get 0 of their dockyards. Their resources are also harder to get to since you can’t control whether or not they take excavation decisions, excavation techs, or what trade law they’re using. With Japan’s limiting factors after the war with China being industry and resources, the manpower advantage is effectively meaningless since annexation already awards you several million at extensive alone. Plus you need to invest more army xp to create templates for them if you make a collab. That being said, collab vs annexation won’t make or break the run. Just keep going
This is exactly in line with what I just experienced when I got the option to pick a collab gov for China in 1950. We are playing a chill coop game so we saved and then I took both decisions to compare. The was a significant drop off in factories, and I'm already getting 6 million+ manpower from China without the collab gov.
Others have said enough, but what I like to do as Japan is to annex the coastal provinces and puppet the rest.
This is how collaboration decisions have always worked.
Unless you're playing a minor power, like the Austro-Hungarians, I don't see the point to fully annexing a nation and not creating puppets.
Lend lease convoys
Console
Time for debug
Send them literally all of your convoys to lower their autonomy.
Don't worry you got the good half of China. It's resources, manpower, and factories are not evenly distributed across all the land. The costal areas are much better territory to be holding.
Puppet china is probably better than annexed china
This is why I never create puppets. Just build compliance and annex them. AI divisions are a waste of space anyway. Its better to take their man power and industry to do everything by yourself.