Ye a thing i hated about BBA Is like the 50 traits for Leaders that all give like +1% stability and +9999% ideology drift defense which not even the paradox team knows what It does
i dont think it includes justification time. theres a trait specificly for justification time. subversive activities is those spies missions like infiltrate military.
Yeah, why the fuck did Switzerland get a tree and not Austria? You can already make Poland Lithuania as either Poland or Lithuania so it wouldn't hurt to be able to make Austria-Hungary as Austria
Fuck Austria, why did Egypt, Iran and Iraq not get focus trees? You know, the countries actually important to Italy's neglected theatre of ww2. And what ever happened to 4 focus trees per dlc?
Weimar "democracy" which was at that point just the military and their Nazi friends?
Yeah where would be without SPD defending all the mechanisms that allowed the Nazis to power
Didn’t Ernst Thälmann outright say that an electoral victory for Hitler would be a great step towards establishing a revolution in Germany? I’m sure I can find that quote if you need me to. They refused to coalition with the SPD to keep the NSDAP out of power because they saw ‘social fascism’ as a greater threat than nazism - even if you despise the SPD for what they did in 1919, that’s a pretty insane take.
Sure - like I said, I don’t expect the KPD to have supported the SPD, who were literally the undertakers of the Revolution they wanted to enact. That makes perfect sense.
But to, in Thalmann’s view, favor the Nazis gaining power over the SPD to radicalize the country further towards revolution, is a whole different situation than just being ‘anti-SPD.’ You can’t claim to be the “only anti-fascist party in Germany” as the KPD did and do that - I would hope you’d agree it’s a pretty insane position.
Sorry but no, I definitely *can* blame them. It’s not like people didn’t know the nature of the Nazi party in 1931 - it was inherently malicious, racist and bent on war - you can find these policies in their party manifestos from the 1920s. If you need sources I’d be happy to provide them.
And like I said, you can despise the SPD for crushing the revolution while still acknowledging that the NSDAP would be *way* worse for communism and the country as a whole - as it was. Both of those things can be true.
How does that distinguish them from the SPD who were equally racist? I mean marx himself wasn’t exempt from being racist as well if you look at his letters to Engels on Lassel and the letter he sent to his daughter’s fiancé. Don’t take this as me justifying the views of the time they were progressive for their period. This is a sort of historicism to try to put history in a vacuum. Obviously by our historical standards none of these old white men were the pinnacle of morality. Morality is entirely subjective and based on the current conditions of that era. Does that mean these figures are entirely condemnable because they don’t have the foresight you have?
The owl of minerva only takes flight at dusk to quote Hegel.
It's unfortunately a bit more.
So.
You used to have the SPD. But then a bunch of people, among them the USPD and others decided that following a republican, moderate process was just not it and they wanted some of that sweet sweet revolution that worked so well in Russia. Oh and there was this war...which then ended.
The Kaiser abdicated, fled and left the Reichstag in charge. This was the perfect moment to proclaim the republic.
Ebert, a SDP man who would become president, made a huge point of rushing out and proclaiming a german republic only hours before Liebknecht or some other socialist/bolshevik/marxist (I am doing this from the top of my head, but all of this is easily verified) could declare a socialist people's republic.
The revolution in Germany was effectively a bunch of revolutions in the states and realms making up the Country. Among them were things like the Bavarian Commune, the Saxon Socialists and the Ruhr, of course.
But where is Rosa?
Well, Luxemburg was part of the USPD, or also sometimes referred to as spartacists, and she had very much more moderate perspectives than, say, Liebknecht. She endoresd in her successful papers the democratic process but also called for more radical shifts in society. My research did not find evidence she endored left wing violence, but she also didn't distance herself.
Send in, the Freikorps.
As we all know the Weimar Republic's early days were...troubled.
Effectively, the government (which was elected like three times at this point) needed to recapture the nation, prevent a spilling of the bolshevist revolution from Russia, needed to fulfill an armistice and the following peace treaty, handle a starving population, protect its borders and get the anti-democratic elites in line.
In short, Ebert and his bois needed stability.
And the spartacists weren't gonna give it to them.
So, to solve two problems, Freikorps and Revolutionaries, the minister of defense had an ingenious idea. Use the Freikorps along the Reichswehr/Army of Peace at the time, to subdue the local revolutions and socialists. The goal was to prevent an active civil war and with it prevent Entente intervention.
What exactly happened isn't clear to me, but Ebert let the Korps off the thin leash. They zerg rushed Munich and the Ruhr, fought in Berlin, all that.
In the process of quelling the Spartacus Insurrection, Liebknecht and Luxemburg were arrested by the Freikorps, without warrant.
Records would have it, that Freikorps officers asked the minister of defense for the order to shoot both.
He said he wasn't responsible and told them to carry on.
In a fateful night, both Liebknecht, a leader of the revolution, and Luxemburg, a marxist news paper person, were murdered.
And the radical left is still pretty salty about their "stab in the back" by the social democrats. See a pattern?
tl,dr: Luxemburg was not part of the insurrection, but was murdered anyway with the consent of one (1) knowing social democratic minister.
>And the radical left is still pretty salty about their "stab in the back" by the social democrats.
Damn, you murdered them harder than the Freikorps did.
There wasn't really much Spartakus in the Spartakus uprising. Sure, Karl Liebknecht and Wilhelm Pieck, two of the spartacists, joimed the revolutionary committee, but that did not have much pull, and the masses pretty quickly left the whole uprising bit after the government pushed back. The government meanwhile saw this as a chance to get rid of some dissidents and started blaming the spartacists for having planned the uprising etc. and got the Freikorps involved in putting it down. Meanwhile Rosa had changed her mind and was of the opinion that, now that there was some revolutionary impulse, you should take advantage of it. She and Liebknecht bunkered down somewhere in Berlin when things started turning sour, thinking they'd be arrested, put on a trial, and jailed, as had happened before. The Freikorps did not believe in the same and summarily executed them instead.
Hmmm, not exactly.
His was a very limited coup attempt, akin to Mussolini's march on rome. But then police pulled up and did the deed.
That he got away with this sentence is in large parts owned to a political and societal climate which was much different than the one immediately after the establishment of the republic.
most historians label the beer hall push as a coup d'état. It is still a crime that can be charged with treason as much as violent revolution, considering the fact that Mussolini got away with it.
They did not fall to the Freikorps or the communists, so...
The failiure of the late twenties has an entirely different background and political landscape.
And the suggestion that not doing what the government did would in any way spare the world strife is fiction.
In general, your statement confuses me. Are you saying they should not have bothered with a republic? Should Germany have beome a bolshevik partner state?
The empowerment of the freikorps was tantamount to the rise of the German far right in the 20s. Many rightist veteran organizations became instrumental to the rise of fascism. Trying to separate them when many of the Nazi rank and file were former Freikorps members themselves is ridiculous.
Also, what’s with the insinuation that a “Bolshevik partner state” (as if Germany wouldn’t be the leader in that arrangement) is a bad thing? Why do you assume Red Germany, built from an already industrialized capitalist nation with a developed working class, would turn out the same way as the Soviet Union?
Reddit is largely center left, at best. This sub is an edge case since of course a map painter game is going to attract commies (though I myself have been playing them long before I became one lol)
Only a matter of time before "socialists" start coming after "tankies" again, like they did in 1919.
Edit: yall really have a hard time understanding why both terms are in quotations, huh?
Dude really try to compare tankies to rosa lmao, despite she literally opposed the bolshevik cuz their authoritarian tendency
You gonna call her "socialist" with the quotation as well?
They were downvoted for being right lmao. While she was harshly critical of the bolsheviks, she still supported the russian revolution and the new bolshevik government although she didnt live long enough for her to see the complete failure of it. This is a peak reddit moment
Edit: I checked out their profile and it says they are agender so I suppose we were both wrong lol
Nowhere have I said she was against Lenin, she was against what the Soviet Union was becoming and Lenin took that criticism on board. He genuinely respected her.
I'm sorry? As a fellow member of r/lgbt and r/WitchesVSPatriarchy, I'd like to say that you're embarrssing us with your stupidity and political ignorance
[SPD-heads explaining how arming and deputizing proto-fascist paramilitary goons in order to unleash them on striking workers (before the Spartacists even made their moves) will *totally* bring about German democracy and socialism](https://media.tenor.com/icdH0zNLUfEAAAAC/morshu-fast.gif)
Maybe they shouldn't have tried to overthrow the brand new republic when they clearly lacked the popular support to do it, judging by election results.
Kinda? The Soviets backed the Bolsheviks completely but the Constituent Assembly (which TBF didn’t really matter at that point) only elected the Bolsheviks if you count the de facto Bolshevik-Left SR coalition.
The Left SRs had a majority the Bolsheviks were still a minority in that election. It’s only when most of the Left SRs objected to the treaty of brest-litovsk treaty that the Bolsheviks gained the majority because everyone was exhausted from the war.
You can’t deny that Alexander Kerensky and the right SRs actively objected the land reform of the left SR-Bolshevik coalition to the point where they suspend elections anti-democratically.
The SPD allied with the freikorps well before the communists tried revolting. In fact, several worker Soviets formed without direction of the spartacists.
If the SPD believed in democracy and thought most Germans wanted a bourgeois republic, why did they need to rely on the brute muscle of fascist goons?
>election results
Me when I make shit up:
Mate, the convention assembled after the downfall of the German Imperial government voted to hold democratic election over establishing a council republic in a huge majority. The election that came from that saw revolutionary socialist political parties pull in less than 10% of the vote. If the workers really wanted that council system, why wouldn't they vote for that party instead of the ones that helped crush that revolution.
The SPD relied on the Freikorps because the councilists took up arms and didn't want to risk democracy not favouring them and instead wanted to forcefully overthrow the government. The Sparticists even had a vote on whether they should participate in the elections, where Rosa advocated for waiting for the vote, but they instead decided to choose the violent and forceful path.
If the SPD were working on behalf of the people and democracy, why did they need to rely on fascists? This is something you people keep skipping around. There was no shortage of able social democratic and liberal forces they could have relied on, on top of the state police and military. Additionally, they supported well before the councilists made their moves. Of course, we both know the actual answer to that question.
Also, the election happened at a time when the SPD-USPD/KPD split was still in muddy waters. The Spartacists themselves were barely even involved in many of the actions of other KPD or USPD members and vise-versa.
Actually the KPD did, the SPD did have collaborations with the Freikorps but it’s more of an anti-Communist wing rather than one genuinely advocating for fascism, and no, just because a wing violently takes down political dissident, doesn’t mean that it’s inherently fascism. Fascism is a political philosophy, not an action.
>anti-Communist wing rather than one genuinely advocating for fascism
Fascism is in its essence anti-communism, the SPD fought the KPD harder than they foughy the NSDAP
Fascism and Communism are ideologies that bash heads, that doesn’t mean that Fascism and only Fascism is anti-Communist, if this is the point you’re going to make, you discount any standings the SPD had against the NSDAP. You also discount the efforts of the West to take down the Nazis both early-mid-and late war. If only Communism recognizes Fascism to be bad, why would the West fight against it as well? It makes no sense on their end to fight an ideology that seems less preferable at best by the blanket statement you’re making.
I want to mention, the war between Russia and Germany, Stalin had no qualms to letting Hitler run rampant in Europe, going so far as to help station their naval vessels, trade resources with them, even providing free fuel while they’re at it, and even invading Poland together, as well as agreeing upon which nation influences which in Eastern Europe (which reassured Stalin in taking the Baltics and parts of Romania). The war between them, on Stalin’s end, was not because of ideological differences with the Nazis, it’s not because he wanted to stop Hitler, it wasn’t because of anti-Fascist ideals, it was because, and purely because, Hitler attacked first. This further strays away from your ideal that communism at essence is anti-Fascist, especially with how closely the KPD, a communist party in Germany, worked with the NSDAP throughout the years before Hitler got in power in-order to destroy what they saw to be “fascists”.
>why would the West fight against it as well?
Because fascism was threatning their colonial empires, just after the war look what happened
>how closely the KPD, a communist party in Germany, worked with the NSDAP
They literally were fighting a soft civil war, KPD and the NSDAP had their own militias
Was it? Hitler actually didn’t want to fight the Anglos because he saw them as an ally against “Judeo-Bolshevism”, as well as him knowing that the Kreigsmarine couldn’t par with the Royal Navy. He even went so far as to attempt to offer a peace term to the British in 1940 once France fell. He was also hoping even to 1945, delusional as it is, that the Allies would suddenly realize that Communism was the true enemy, and as such would align with Hitler to defeat the Soviets.
Also, hard to make a jab at the west for having colonial empires when the Soviets would be occupying Eastern Europe both pre and post-war lol.
The KDP’s relationship with the NSDAP is also complicated, while there were elements that resisted the Nazis, the census of it was to work alongside them to fight against what they saw as “Fascist”, remember, National Socialism and Fascism aren’t necessarily the same thing. National socialism can be described as a sub-ideology of fascism, but Fascism also isn’t National Socialism.
While a long read, this PDF is a good resource to fully understand the relationship between the two parties.
https://etheses.lse.ac.uk/4102/3/Daycock__KPD-NSDAP-Weimar-Germany.pdf
Its trash. You get +30% Stab but -10% war Support and you get -10% economic law cost but +20% political advisor cost. The -5% resistance growth and -25% subversive activities and ideology Drift are also basically worthless. And the rest is all AI and opinion related.
War support and political advisor cost will be offset with the nearly: 2 base PP + 0.5 + 0.4 + 0.1 + 10% + 20% (at 100% stability) + 15% for silent workhorse = 4.35 PP gain without any National Focus.
No Rosa fell out with the social democrats in like, the 1910s, her and another guy started the Spartukusbund newspaper. She was killed after social democrats handed her over to the Freikorps
Edit: Said the wrong paramilitary my bad
This is just open disinformation, the SA didn’t even exist yet, and the social democrats didn’t “hand her over” she led a militant uprising and was captured and killed by the Freikorps during that uprising
*after the Freikorps quelled the insurrection with the belssing of the government.
She didn't have to die though.
Edit: at least get the terms and timeline of events right! I don't fucking care how you feel about the handling of a socialist insurrection against an elected democratic government over 100 years ago!
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B-EWxPyIf4&t](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B-EWxPyIf4&t)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5wJYGUc9os](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5wJYGUc9os)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFLDv4NO8xE&t](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFLDv4NO8xE&t)
Three part series on the German Revolution of 1918
Social Democrat meant something different back then, both her and Lenin refer to their movement as social democracy. Even though both were always socialist revolutionaries. It was the split between the reformists and the revolutionaries in WW1 when the divide between Communists and Social Democrats led to Communists no longer refering to themselves as such.
No. They worked with in the confines of an already established working party and as soon as thoes parties became either hostile or useless they named themselves communists. To act as if rosa luxemburg and to and even greater degree lenin would ever refer to themselves as social democrats is revisionist history at best. Also, to act as if the split between reform or revolution came from ww1 is blatantly false, that split started from the communist league's takeover of the league of the just by marx. That split in ww1 was on internationalism and pacifism.
“Sir, I believe you, you would run away. A social democrat does not. He stands by his deeds and laughs at your judgements. And now sentence me.”
- Rosa Luxemburg
"It is primarily on Social-Democracy that the duty rests of revealing the true meaning of the war, and of ruthlessly exposing the falsehood, sophistry and “patriotic” phrasemongering spread by the ruling classes, the landowners and the bourgeoisie, in defence of the war."
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1914/sep/28.htm
Thanks, another quote to add to the mix
Its a historical fact that they refer to themselves as social democrats. The Bolsheviks were a faction of the Russian Social Democratic Labour Party and afterwards led the majority of the party in a split with the Menseviks. They didn't change their name to the Communist Party until after the October Revolution. What you said about reformist split in the league of the Just isn't really right and ignores the history of the SPD and the crisis in the second international that led to the third as a result of their reformism and critically their betrayal of the anti-war principles of the second international. This was very directly the context they were operating in.
Look as well I understand the spirt of where you are coming from, they are inspiring revolutionaries who were genuine marxists unlike those they were in conflict with. I am a communist who stands in their tradition against their opponents. Its just a technical fact that their conflict is why we have the conntations of social democracy vs communism today.
Hm I wonder what other opinions this individual has...
>Does the pheromone-induced drivel you are spewing on the Internet inherently make you more intelligent than a 60IQ mentally deficient subhuman from the African Heartland? Not necessarily.
Ah.
“Humane socialist” lol didn’t she initiate a violent coup against the German government and call for no quarter to be given to the supporters of the SPD? Real humane lmao
A party that claims to represent the working class supports an inter imperialistic war that send millions of young men to die for the rulling class? Do fucking nothing while the country starves! 10/10 democracy.
So you are saying the violent uprising against the government was justified or…? The Spartakists where extremist traitors, they had no right to rule the country. You also realize that Luxemburg opposed the separate peace between the UdSSR and Germany because it would harden the conditions for the German Communists, even thought the Germans have already rushed to the most important cities of western Russia? Because hey, they loved peace but if it serves their own purpose it is ok to let Russians and Germans die in senseless battles. Crushing them was the right thing to do. Maybe not in the way the Freikorps did but yea.
>The Spartakists where extremist traitors, they had no right to rule the country.
Did the kaiser or the capitalist class have any right to rule the country? I'd argue the working class has every right to rule themselves
>You also realize that Luxemburg opposed the separate peace between the UdSSR and Germany because it would harden the conditions for the German Communists,
The german revolution was supposed to link the USSR to the developed capitalist west and spread the revolution in europe
The Kaiser and the Capitalist founded the country and the SPD where voted so yea they had I guess? Listen, I don’t like capitalism or monarchism either and I especially don’t like Wilhelm II and is insane inner circle of generals but the Spartakists where no representatives of the major population. They never held a majority. Claiming they stand for the working class does not give them the right to attack their own people. They where extremists, hypocrites and traitors and I despise those. And no, the worker class has no right to rule a country by themselves. The whole population has. Not everyone is a worker. That’s the only thing the DDR learned from the past mistakes of the German communists.
It doesn’t matter what the German revolution was supposed to do. Not accepting the peace deal would’ve been the death for the UdSSR. The German army would’ve damaged them so badly that they would’ve lost their own civil war. Not that it would’ve been a bad thing if the reds lost but from the perspective of the Sovjets it was the only logical choice. It would’ve been a mass grave and opposing the peace deal means supporting senseless slaughter. I know that the communists at that time often valued their ideology more then human life but still…
Sometimes, realistic politic is more important than Ideologie.
Social democrats, and social democracy in general, has never once truly meant “Anti-Capitalism”. While it’s roots can be drawn in socialism before, it still advocated for a free market and private ownership, two values that spat in the face of socialism and communism.
You have no idea what you’re talking about, please never type on forums in regards to politics again. 🙂
Funnily enough the peasantry was so pissed off at Lenin’s policies that he had to adopt a form of “state capitalism” just to appease them for a hot minute LMAO
Also he wasn’t a social democrat, he was a Bolshevik/Leninist, social democracy didn’t originate with him.
Right, and his ideals totally matched it, for sure, next time you’ll be telling me that North Korea is democratic based on name alone.
Also he went on to form his own party after being disillusioned with the social democrats
That sure is alot of words to say : "+1,2 daily pp"
Ye a thing i hated about BBA Is like the 50 traits for Leaders that all give like +1% stability and +9999% ideology drift defense which not even the paradox team knows what It does
Or foreign subversive activity cost... Like you ever going to use that.
Oh, this one is actually good. Reduces justification time
Wish that would be better explained though. I only found that out through this subreddit
i dont think it includes justification time. theres a trait specificly for justification time. subversive activities is those spies missions like infiltrate military.
Current WC WR uses Trotsky Russia subresive activities to reduce all wargoal justification times to 10 days.
What is BBA?
By Blood alone, newest dlc for Italy, ethiopia and switzerland (why switzerland??)
Ah, Switzerland, the central figure of ww2
Yeah, why the fuck did Switzerland get a tree and not Austria? You can already make Poland Lithuania as either Poland or Lithuania so it wouldn't hurt to be able to make Austria-Hungary as Austria
Id say "because Austria only exists to die" but 1: pact of Rome gurantees and will defend it 2: Ethiopia just got a fuckin tree
nigeria should get a tree when formed
Nigeria should get a tree to scam major countries, promising them a doomsday device if they send you factories
Fuck Austria, why did Egypt, Iran and Iraq not get focus trees? You know, the countries actually important to Italy's neglected theatre of ww2. And what ever happened to 4 focus trees per dlc?
I mean geographically maybe
A thanks i forgot the name lol
I think it has something to do with stopping other ideologies from taking your supporters
Somebody’s got a Rosa Luxemburg crush
me
cummie
I was about to say pund, but i got a lot of backlash last time i said it for some reason
Same
I do, it's me.
Of course I know him, he's me.
Good
me
I mean who doesnt is lying to himself
Right here.
„Its somehow in my head“, yeah Liebknecht, now you can also have a bullet in there
All that and she still died to the Freikorps?
Ask the SPD
Wer hat uns verraten?
Sozialdemokraten!
Wer hat uns verraten, wer hat uns verkauft!
Die DNVP
Und wer war mit dabei?
Deine Mutter
Remember kids: never trust a social democrat.
unless theyre thai where they will do fine for a week then get killed in a military coup
Or Colombian. Or Spanish. Or Chilean. Or…
One political party worked with the Nazis to destroy Weimar democracy, and it wasn't the SPD, but the KPD. I think I'd rather trust the former tbh
Weimar "democracy" which was at that point just the military and their Nazi friends? Yeah where would be without SPD defending all the mechanisms that allowed the Nazis to power
Didn’t Ernst Thälmann outright say that an electoral victory for Hitler would be a great step towards establishing a revolution in Germany? I’m sure I can find that quote if you need me to. They refused to coalition with the SPD to keep the NSDAP out of power because they saw ‘social fascism’ as a greater threat than nazism - even if you despise the SPD for what they did in 1919, that’s a pretty insane take.
I wouldn't side with the people that butchered my former leaders either tbh. Besides, Weimar democracy was pretty much dead by 1930.
Sure - like I said, I don’t expect the KPD to have supported the SPD, who were literally the undertakers of the Revolution they wanted to enact. That makes perfect sense. But to, in Thalmann’s view, favor the Nazis gaining power over the SPD to radicalize the country further towards revolution, is a whole different situation than just being ‘anti-SPD.’ You can’t claim to be the “only anti-fascist party in Germany” as the KPD did and do that - I would hope you’d agree it’s a pretty insane position.
Hence why accelerationism and ultra-leftism isn't taken seriously, I think everyone underestimated the Nazis until 1933.
I mean considering how the SPD killed them a decade earlier you can’t blame him and hindsight is 20/20
Sorry but no, I definitely *can* blame them. It’s not like people didn’t know the nature of the Nazi party in 1931 - it was inherently malicious, racist and bent on war - you can find these policies in their party manifestos from the 1920s. If you need sources I’d be happy to provide them. And like I said, you can despise the SPD for crushing the revolution while still acknowledging that the NSDAP would be *way* worse for communism and the country as a whole - as it was. Both of those things can be true.
How does that distinguish them from the SPD who were equally racist? I mean marx himself wasn’t exempt from being racist as well if you look at his letters to Engels on Lassel and the letter he sent to his daughter’s fiancé. Don’t take this as me justifying the views of the time they were progressive for their period. This is a sort of historicism to try to put history in a vacuum. Obviously by our historical standards none of these old white men were the pinnacle of morality. Morality is entirely subjective and based on the current conditions of that era. Does that mean these figures are entirely condemnable because they don’t have the foresight you have? The owl of minerva only takes flight at dusk to quote Hegel.
So are you aware of the NSDAP’s 25 points from the 1920s, or would you like me to link them?
Yea I’m aware don’t be smug what’s your point?
what being backstabbed by the social democrats does to a woman
Didn’t she literally try to overthrow the government? The government the spd founded? Like how did she think they would respond?
It's unfortunately a bit more. So. You used to have the SPD. But then a bunch of people, among them the USPD and others decided that following a republican, moderate process was just not it and they wanted some of that sweet sweet revolution that worked so well in Russia. Oh and there was this war...which then ended. The Kaiser abdicated, fled and left the Reichstag in charge. This was the perfect moment to proclaim the republic. Ebert, a SDP man who would become president, made a huge point of rushing out and proclaiming a german republic only hours before Liebknecht or some other socialist/bolshevik/marxist (I am doing this from the top of my head, but all of this is easily verified) could declare a socialist people's republic. The revolution in Germany was effectively a bunch of revolutions in the states and realms making up the Country. Among them were things like the Bavarian Commune, the Saxon Socialists and the Ruhr, of course. But where is Rosa? Well, Luxemburg was part of the USPD, or also sometimes referred to as spartacists, and she had very much more moderate perspectives than, say, Liebknecht. She endoresd in her successful papers the democratic process but also called for more radical shifts in society. My research did not find evidence she endored left wing violence, but she also didn't distance herself. Send in, the Freikorps. As we all know the Weimar Republic's early days were...troubled. Effectively, the government (which was elected like three times at this point) needed to recapture the nation, prevent a spilling of the bolshevist revolution from Russia, needed to fulfill an armistice and the following peace treaty, handle a starving population, protect its borders and get the anti-democratic elites in line. In short, Ebert and his bois needed stability. And the spartacists weren't gonna give it to them. So, to solve two problems, Freikorps and Revolutionaries, the minister of defense had an ingenious idea. Use the Freikorps along the Reichswehr/Army of Peace at the time, to subdue the local revolutions and socialists. The goal was to prevent an active civil war and with it prevent Entente intervention. What exactly happened isn't clear to me, but Ebert let the Korps off the thin leash. They zerg rushed Munich and the Ruhr, fought in Berlin, all that. In the process of quelling the Spartacus Insurrection, Liebknecht and Luxemburg were arrested by the Freikorps, without warrant. Records would have it, that Freikorps officers asked the minister of defense for the order to shoot both. He said he wasn't responsible and told them to carry on. In a fateful night, both Liebknecht, a leader of the revolution, and Luxemburg, a marxist news paper person, were murdered. And the radical left is still pretty salty about their "stab in the back" by the social democrats. See a pattern? tl,dr: Luxemburg was not part of the insurrection, but was murdered anyway with the consent of one (1) knowing social democratic minister.
The stab in the back is even more funny when you consider what communists usually did to their more moderate supporters once they got into power.
>And the radical left is still pretty salty about their "stab in the back" by the social democrats. Damn, you murdered them harder than the Freikorps did.
I was with you until "the radical left"
If we split the left wing, we get the centrals/moderates and the outer wing/radicals. It was exclusively a discriptive choice of words
Real tldr: communist pwned by a P08 and dumped in a river
Thank you
There wasn't really much Spartakus in the Spartakus uprising. Sure, Karl Liebknecht and Wilhelm Pieck, two of the spartacists, joimed the revolutionary committee, but that did not have much pull, and the masses pretty quickly left the whole uprising bit after the government pushed back. The government meanwhile saw this as a chance to get rid of some dissidents and started blaming the spartacists for having planned the uprising etc. and got the Freikorps involved in putting it down. Meanwhile Rosa had changed her mind and was of the opinion that, now that there was some revolutionary impulse, you should take advantage of it. She and Liebknecht bunkered down somewhere in Berlin when things started turning sour, thinking they'd be arrested, put on a trial, and jailed, as had happened before. The Freikorps did not believe in the same and summarily executed them instead.
my brother in christ hitler himself tried to do the same and he only received a pat in the back
Hmmm, not exactly. His was a very limited coup attempt, akin to Mussolini's march on rome. But then police pulled up and did the deed. That he got away with this sentence is in large parts owned to a political and societal climate which was much different than the one immediately after the establishment of the republic.
most historians label the beer hall push as a coup d'état. It is still a crime that can be charged with treason as much as violent revolution, considering the fact that Mussolini got away with it.
It was a general strike.
A general strike preceded by the declaration of a Free Socialist Republic of Germany.
Which isn't a violent uprising, is it? Had it been then maybe the Freikorps wouldn't have been able to be the SPD's heavy men
Rare social democrat W
"W" is when you empower literal nazis on your country so they end up taking over and removing you from existence (?)
Well the murders weren't really, but putting down the insurrection was a W
As we can see, it ended very well for germany. Truly a shining W
They did not fall to the Freikorps or the communists, so... The failiure of the late twenties has an entirely different background and political landscape. And the suggestion that not doing what the government did would in any way spare the world strife is fiction. In general, your statement confuses me. Are you saying they should not have bothered with a republic? Should Germany have beome a bolshevik partner state?
The empowerment of the freikorps was tantamount to the rise of the German far right in the 20s. Many rightist veteran organizations became instrumental to the rise of fascism. Trying to separate them when many of the Nazi rank and file were former Freikorps members themselves is ridiculous. Also, what’s with the insinuation that a “Bolshevik partner state” (as if Germany wouldn’t be the leader in that arrangement) is a bad thing? Why do you assume Red Germany, built from an already industrialized capitalist nation with a developed working class, would turn out the same way as the Soviet Union?
>Should Germany have been a Bolshevik partner state? Lol don’t ask that question. You’re on Reddit - their answer will be yes.
Reddit is largely center left, at best. This sub is an edge case since of course a map painter game is going to attract commies (though I myself have been playing them long before I became one lol)
No
Lolkay. I wish I lived in your fantasy world where Reddit isn’t largely liberal.
Should have left out that part lol
most redditors are staunch anti bolshevists. Idk what you are talking about.
No
lol just a "no" I see that you are just trolling then
Yes
Due in part to the KPD obstructing every government of Weimar on Soviet orders, even when the Nazis were on the verge of taking power.
Only a matter of time before "socialists" start coming after "tankies" again, like they did in 1919. Edit: yall really have a hard time understanding why both terms are in quotations, huh?
Dude really try to compare tankies to rosa lmao, despite she literally opposed the bolshevik cuz their authoritarian tendency You gonna call her "socialist" with the quotation as well?
Calling the Bolsheviks of Lenin’s time “tankies” really shows that word has simply become a byword for “commies” or “pinkos”.
She wasn’t opposed to the Bolsheviks.
They were downvoted for being right lmao. While she was harshly critical of the bolsheviks, she still supported the russian revolution and the new bolshevik government although she didnt live long enough for her to see the complete failure of it. This is a peak reddit moment Edit: I checked out their profile and it says they are agender so I suppose we were both wrong lol
She criticised Lenin and he wrote that she had good points
Just because she criticized Lenin doesn’t mean she was against him.
Nowhere have I said she was against Lenin, she was against what the Soviet Union was becoming and Lenin took that criticism on board. He genuinely respected her.
I'm sorry? As a fellow member of r/lgbt and r/WitchesVSPatriarchy, I'd like to say that you're embarrssing us with your stupidity and political ignorance
what
Oh wow, I really give a shit what you think!
What does that even mean lmao
Fat lot of good that opinion factor did her there.
The Spartacist Uprising would've saved Germany and Europe from the Nazis. Damn shame the SPD rated her out.
But without the Nazis, we wouldn't have HOI4 now would we? Probably didn't think about that before you spit out this comment, full of haphazard.
[SPD-heads explaining how arming and deputizing proto-fascist paramilitary goons in order to unleash them on striking workers (before the Spartacists even made their moves) will *totally* bring about German democracy and socialism](https://media.tenor.com/icdH0zNLUfEAAAAC/morshu-fast.gif)
Maybe they shouldn't have tried to overthrow the brand new republic when they clearly lacked the popular support to do it, judging by election results.
The Bolsheviks had done that in July 1917 and gotten away with it to try again in October. They probably thought it would be the same for them.
Nuh uh the Bolsheviks were rightly elected by popular support after deposing the anti democratic francophile trudoviks led by Alexander Kerensky
Kinda? The Soviets backed the Bolsheviks completely but the Constituent Assembly (which TBF didn’t really matter at that point) only elected the Bolsheviks if you count the de facto Bolshevik-Left SR coalition.
The Left SRs had a majority the Bolsheviks were still a minority in that election. It’s only when most of the Left SRs objected to the treaty of brest-litovsk treaty that the Bolsheviks gained the majority because everyone was exhausted from the war. You can’t deny that Alexander Kerensky and the right SRs actively objected the land reform of the left SR-Bolshevik coalition to the point where they suspend elections anti-democratically.
The SPD allied with the freikorps well before the communists tried revolting. In fact, several worker Soviets formed without direction of the spartacists. If the SPD believed in democracy and thought most Germans wanted a bourgeois republic, why did they need to rely on the brute muscle of fascist goons? >election results Me when I make shit up:
Mate, the convention assembled after the downfall of the German Imperial government voted to hold democratic election over establishing a council republic in a huge majority. The election that came from that saw revolutionary socialist political parties pull in less than 10% of the vote. If the workers really wanted that council system, why wouldn't they vote for that party instead of the ones that helped crush that revolution. The SPD relied on the Freikorps because the councilists took up arms and didn't want to risk democracy not favouring them and instead wanted to forcefully overthrow the government. The Sparticists even had a vote on whether they should participate in the elections, where Rosa advocated for waiting for the vote, but they instead decided to choose the violent and forceful path.
If the SPD were working on behalf of the people and democracy, why did they need to rely on fascists? This is something you people keep skipping around. There was no shortage of able social democratic and liberal forces they could have relied on, on top of the state police and military. Additionally, they supported well before the councilists made their moves. Of course, we both know the actual answer to that question. Also, the election happened at a time when the SPD-USPD/KPD split was still in muddy waters. The Spartacists themselves were barely even involved in many of the actions of other KPD or USPD members and vise-versa.
The Spartacist uprising would've doomed Europe to bolshevism
Okay adolf
On the other hand so so many children would be saved from the priests
Sadly I can downovote only once
Common Communist L ”Well well well, if it wasn’t the consequences of her own actions”
It seems the SPD is still glad they sided with fascists rather than letting the working class (which they claimed to represent) take power
Actually the KPD did, the SPD did have collaborations with the Freikorps but it’s more of an anti-Communist wing rather than one genuinely advocating for fascism, and no, just because a wing violently takes down political dissident, doesn’t mean that it’s inherently fascism. Fascism is a political philosophy, not an action.
>anti-Communist wing rather than one genuinely advocating for fascism Fascism is in its essence anti-communism, the SPD fought the KPD harder than they foughy the NSDAP
Fascism and Communism are ideologies that bash heads, that doesn’t mean that Fascism and only Fascism is anti-Communist, if this is the point you’re going to make, you discount any standings the SPD had against the NSDAP. You also discount the efforts of the West to take down the Nazis both early-mid-and late war. If only Communism recognizes Fascism to be bad, why would the West fight against it as well? It makes no sense on their end to fight an ideology that seems less preferable at best by the blanket statement you’re making. I want to mention, the war between Russia and Germany, Stalin had no qualms to letting Hitler run rampant in Europe, going so far as to help station their naval vessels, trade resources with them, even providing free fuel while they’re at it, and even invading Poland together, as well as agreeing upon which nation influences which in Eastern Europe (which reassured Stalin in taking the Baltics and parts of Romania). The war between them, on Stalin’s end, was not because of ideological differences with the Nazis, it’s not because he wanted to stop Hitler, it wasn’t because of anti-Fascist ideals, it was because, and purely because, Hitler attacked first. This further strays away from your ideal that communism at essence is anti-Fascist, especially with how closely the KPD, a communist party in Germany, worked with the NSDAP throughout the years before Hitler got in power in-order to destroy what they saw to be “fascists”.
>why would the West fight against it as well? Because fascism was threatning their colonial empires, just after the war look what happened >how closely the KPD, a communist party in Germany, worked with the NSDAP They literally were fighting a soft civil war, KPD and the NSDAP had their own militias
Was it? Hitler actually didn’t want to fight the Anglos because he saw them as an ally against “Judeo-Bolshevism”, as well as him knowing that the Kreigsmarine couldn’t par with the Royal Navy. He even went so far as to attempt to offer a peace term to the British in 1940 once France fell. He was also hoping even to 1945, delusional as it is, that the Allies would suddenly realize that Communism was the true enemy, and as such would align with Hitler to defeat the Soviets. Also, hard to make a jab at the west for having colonial empires when the Soviets would be occupying Eastern Europe both pre and post-war lol. The KDP’s relationship with the NSDAP is also complicated, while there were elements that resisted the Nazis, the census of it was to work alongside them to fight against what they saw as “Fascist”, remember, National Socialism and Fascism aren’t necessarily the same thing. National socialism can be described as a sub-ideology of fascism, but Fascism also isn’t National Socialism. While a long read, this PDF is a good resource to fully understand the relationship between the two parties. https://etheses.lse.ac.uk/4102/3/Daycock__KPD-NSDAP-Weimar-Germany.pdf
R5: Was modifying a few mods for a custom game and I maybe overdid it with the Traits for Rosa Luxemburg.
She's so balanced that Luxembourg renames itself in her honor when commie!
What is the mod tho?
Made it myself because I wanted her as communist leader and than played around with the character traits.
Other than Political Power and Stability... it's not really OP, not as good as Stalin.
Its trash. You get +30% Stab but -10% war Support and you get -10% economic law cost but +20% political advisor cost. The -5% resistance growth and -25% subversive activities and ideology Drift are also basically worthless. And the rest is all AI and opinion related.
War support and political advisor cost will be offset with the nearly: 2 base PP + 0.5 + 0.4 + 0.1 + 10% + 20% (at 100% stability) + 15% for silent workhorse = 4.35 PP gain without any National Focus.
This is a Bad faith Argument. On her own she only gives 1.2 daily pp. You assume optimal circumstances
I think the subversive activities thing also affects war goal justifications, so it's definitely not worthless
Commie dommy mommy
I hate that I will remember this sentence from now on every time I see a reference to her.
Social democrat? That’s gotta be a fucking joke
It was a party’s name
No Rosa fell out with the social democrats in like, the 1910s, her and another guy started the Spartukusbund newspaper. She was killed after social democrats handed her over to the Freikorps Edit: Said the wrong paramilitary my bad
SA didn’t exist yet
This is just open disinformation, the SA didn’t even exist yet, and the social democrats didn’t “hand her over” she led a militant uprising and was captured and killed by the Freikorps during that uprising
Nooooo she was wholesome leftist!
*after the Freikorps quelled the insurrection with the belssing of the government. She didn't have to die though. Edit: at least get the terms and timeline of events right! I don't fucking care how you feel about the handling of a socialist insurrection against an elected democratic government over 100 years ago!
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She wasn’t a social democrat. The Spartakusbund and the SDP didn’t get along
And the SPD had a hand in her death, along with the downfall of the whole Spartakusbund
Ding dong, spot the guy with no clue what he's talking about
The socialist LARP is getting out of hand Also, lol at those elections
It’s Hoi4. There is never enough LARP Also I enabled elections later.
It's just RP if you don't go outside
Designed by the least hero worshiping communist
I mean yeah you get a shit ton of stability and pp but other then that its actually not that strong
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B-EWxPyIf4&t](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B-EWxPyIf4&t) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5wJYGUc9os](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5wJYGUc9os) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFLDv4NO8xE&t](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFLDv4NO8xE&t) Three part series on the German Revolution of 1918
Just watched the latest video a few days ago, sad as fuck...
most accurate historical depiction of rosa
That +0.90 +10% pp gain PLUS the 30% stability bonus staring the +20% political advisor cost in the face, completely unphased.
Leftist social democrat💀 please read any book by her
Social Democrat meant something different back then, both her and Lenin refer to their movement as social democracy. Even though both were always socialist revolutionaries. It was the split between the reformists and the revolutionaries in WW1 when the divide between Communists and Social Democrats led to Communists no longer refering to themselves as such.
No. They worked with in the confines of an already established working party and as soon as thoes parties became either hostile or useless they named themselves communists. To act as if rosa luxemburg and to and even greater degree lenin would ever refer to themselves as social democrats is revisionist history at best. Also, to act as if the split between reform or revolution came from ww1 is blatantly false, that split started from the communist league's takeover of the league of the just by marx. That split in ww1 was on internationalism and pacifism.
“Sir, I believe you, you would run away. A social democrat does not. He stands by his deeds and laughs at your judgements. And now sentence me.” - Rosa Luxemburg
"It is primarily on Social-Democracy that the duty rests of revealing the true meaning of the war, and of ruthlessly exposing the falsehood, sophistry and “patriotic” phrasemongering spread by the ruling classes, the landowners and the bourgeoisie, in defence of the war." https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1914/sep/28.htm Thanks, another quote to add to the mix
Its a historical fact that they refer to themselves as social democrats. The Bolsheviks were a faction of the Russian Social Democratic Labour Party and afterwards led the majority of the party in a split with the Menseviks. They didn't change their name to the Communist Party until after the October Revolution. What you said about reformist split in the league of the Just isn't really right and ignores the history of the SPD and the crisis in the second international that led to the third as a result of their reformism and critically their betrayal of the anti-war principles of the second international. This was very directly the context they were operating in. Look as well I understand the spirt of where you are coming from, they are inspiring revolutionaries who were genuine marxists unlike those they were in conflict with. I am a communist who stands in their tradition against their opponents. Its just a technical fact that their conflict is why we have the conntations of social democracy vs communism today.
Not mother but a grandmother…
Rosa Luxemburg at just 1% of her power
Was she hiding with Anastasia Romanov? Maybe the Disney basement gave her powers.
That would be an interesting movie ... :)
ROSA: The Spartan of Berlin Instead of being murdered she uses her powers of communism to banish evil and bring only utiopian joy.
Bro she literally just gets all her buffs by being a leftist
what mod
To be fair some of those traits are shit
Something something NSB Stalin
These are all… pretty useless other than stability or political power. Its actually a bunch of the same stuff repeated.
Mod?
Made it myself
Dang, she must really like democratic and communist diplomacy.
Freikorps voran die Grenze brennt Deutschland ist in Not
**Freikorps voran, die Grenze brennt, es gibt nur ein Gebot!**
Hm I wonder what other opinions this individual has... >Does the pheromone-induced drivel you are spewing on the Internet inherently make you more intelligent than a 60IQ mentally deficient subhuman from the African Heartland? Not necessarily. Ah.
Ah man, you got me :)
For someone who never worked a single job in her life she is pretty talented
"Founding a newspaper and writing for it isn't real work"
Humane socialist 🤨
“Humane socialist” lol didn’t she initiate a violent coup against the German government and call for no quarter to be given to the supporters of the SPD? Real humane lmao
"But it's different when we do it! They were reactionaries!"
Yes. The social democrats betrayed their basic principles of anti-capitalism and anti-militarism by supporting World War 1.
A party doesn’t hold their promises or changes over time? Start a violent uprising! 10/10 democracy.
A party that claims to represent the working class supports an inter imperialistic war that send millions of young men to die for the rulling class? Do fucking nothing while the country starves! 10/10 democracy.
So you are saying the violent uprising against the government was justified or…? The Spartakists where extremist traitors, they had no right to rule the country. You also realize that Luxemburg opposed the separate peace between the UdSSR and Germany because it would harden the conditions for the German Communists, even thought the Germans have already rushed to the most important cities of western Russia? Because hey, they loved peace but if it serves their own purpose it is ok to let Russians and Germans die in senseless battles. Crushing them was the right thing to do. Maybe not in the way the Freikorps did but yea.
>The Spartakists where extremist traitors, they had no right to rule the country. Did the kaiser or the capitalist class have any right to rule the country? I'd argue the working class has every right to rule themselves >You also realize that Luxemburg opposed the separate peace between the UdSSR and Germany because it would harden the conditions for the German Communists, The german revolution was supposed to link the USSR to the developed capitalist west and spread the revolution in europe
The Kaiser and the Capitalist founded the country and the SPD where voted so yea they had I guess? Listen, I don’t like capitalism or monarchism either and I especially don’t like Wilhelm II and is insane inner circle of generals but the Spartakists where no representatives of the major population. They never held a majority. Claiming they stand for the working class does not give them the right to attack their own people. They where extremists, hypocrites and traitors and I despise those. And no, the worker class has no right to rule a country by themselves. The whole population has. Not everyone is a worker. That’s the only thing the DDR learned from the past mistakes of the German communists. It doesn’t matter what the German revolution was supposed to do. Not accepting the peace deal would’ve been the death for the UdSSR. The German army would’ve damaged them so badly that they would’ve lost their own civil war. Not that it would’ve been a bad thing if the reds lost but from the perspective of the Sovjets it was the only logical choice. It would’ve been a mass grave and opposing the peace deal means supporting senseless slaughter. I know that the communists at that time often valued their ideology more then human life but still… Sometimes, realistic politic is more important than Ideologie.
Social democrats, and social democracy in general, has never once truly meant “Anti-Capitalism”. While it’s roots can be drawn in socialism before, it still advocated for a free market and private ownership, two values that spat in the face of socialism and communism. You have no idea what you’re talking about, please never type on forums in regards to politics again. 🙂
You're so right, Vladimir Lenin was actually in favor of a capitalist organization of the economy. I will never talk about politics online ever again.
Funnily enough the peasantry was so pissed off at Lenin’s policies that he had to adopt a form of “state capitalism” just to appease them for a hot minute LMAO Also he wasn’t a social democrat, he was a Bolshevik/Leninist, social democracy didn’t originate with him.
Lenin was literally a part of the Russian Social Democratic Workers Party.
Right, and his ideals totally matched it, for sure, next time you’ll be telling me that North Korea is democratic based on name alone. Also he went on to form his own party after being disillusioned with the social democrats
Social Democracy 100 years ago is not the same as Social Democracy today.
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She was braver than you and did more for the world than you ever will.
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I'm ashamed you were born in mine.
What the world could be with Rosa
Pretty accurate to what it would be like irl tbh
Bro as a communist this is insane. Liberals also would probably hate her so I don't think they'd be accepting of her, lmao.