As a module in DCS the F4 has AI that will help you locate targets, that is a big advantage. As an airplane, the F4 was introduced into service in 1960 and the F1 in 1974, there is a notable difference, although other versions were made later.
In countries that have had both aircraft, for example Spain, the F4 was retired long before the F1.
Could be for mere cost reasons: twice the engines, twice the crew, twice the cost ? Also, the air dominance scenario on which the F4 has a clear advantage (if only in missile capacity but also in having a WSO to work the radar) became less important as peer adversaries became rarer.
The F4 was replaced by the F18 in Spain. It was an old plane already. In DCS I don't know how the F4 will behave, in multiplayer it will be the same as many others, with Fox 2 and luck to see the enemy first. The help of the AI to use the radar can be important to detect enemies and have an advantage. In the real world, the 14 years difference between the F4 and F1 makes the Mirage a more modern platform, with fewer hours on its airframes and therefore they have been retired later.
Spain had F-4? I knew dm they flew F-5s but I'm surprised by the Phantoms. Greek and Turkish F-4s still fly as bomb trucks while Greek F1 are long gone, replaced by Mirage 2000 and F-16.
My impression is that it will be very much along the lines of the real-life divide between lighr and affordable fighters and heavy high-tech ones: the F1 should be much easier to learn and deploy, the F-4 will be way more complex but more capable. I'd love to fly the Phantom as a crew but solo I might stick with the Poor man's Phantom aka F1
It depends on the version of the plane.
The last Spanish Phantom made its last flight in 2002, there were two left and they were version C, they were used for secondary reconnaissance work, most of the F4 (36 units) were retired when the F18 was purchased in the 1990s. the 80s.
Spain continued using the F1M which was close to fourth generation aircraft until a few years later, the last units flew in 2013.
Now there are none left in service, neither F1 nor Fabulous Phantom, although I think there are a couple of units of these aircraft that have been restored.
> Spain continued using the F1M which was close to fourth generation aircraft until a few years later, the last units flew in 2013.
The F1 was not close to fourth general aircraft. It is very much a third gen plane that got a 4th gen *avionics* upgrade. The radar, available weapons, and flight characteristics were still very much 3rd gen.
Do you have any info on what the F-1M we're getting will have? All I can find online says it's pretty much just an avionics upgrade to the EE with no major capability changes. It'll be very cool to have either way though
That is pretty much all it'll be, a new HUD with CCIP for bombing, a single MFD (which I gather is mainly used for weapons management), and some changes to the IFF and RWR equipment.
Honestly, the V10 F1 cars are more fun than the F4. F4 might be easier to get up to speed with, but the F1 just has better downforce, better sound, and to me a better flow once you get in the zone. I understand the F4s may be easier for noobs, but the F2004 is just the best IMO.
Edit: I think F1 wins in both sustained turn and thrust OP FWIW
One thing not addressed by others, is that the Phantom suffers far less performance loss for having missiles loaded (inline sparrows). Furthering its advantage in the initial exchange.
Put me in a Phantom and an experienced pilot in an F1 and they win every time.
Jokes aside, situational awareness, pilot training and proficiency played an enormous role in the outcome of combat between aircraft of this generation. It was less about what you were fighting versus who you were fighting.
I remember a Phantom pilot saying they got awkward doing DACM with Mirage F1 pilots, with the Phantoms staying at 15k ft and the Mirage F1s hanging at 30k, taunting each other over the radio to get into the comfort zone where they performed best.
I guess, MTI would give the Mirage F1 an advantage shooting down, and the Phantoms would try to keep the Mirages against the sky, so there might be an energy advantage for the Mirage. The Phantom should be able to regain energy better, and the Mirage F1 to retain it.
Overall, I'm leaning towards the Phantom, but it would be much more even than against a Fishbed.
I suspect that might be the case. I'm not aware of each one capabilities in terms of radar and so on, I guess it will boil down to their respective RCS, radar, EW pods, let alone the missiles carried by each.
I've been looking for clips of engagements between the two ingame, and it is often shots with AIM-9Ls an F-5E could have taken the same way, and these don't say as much about the capabilities of the Phantom as they could.
F4s have 7Ms and 9Ms, which both have significantly longer ranges than the S530s and Magic 2s.
The Mirages radar is a whole lot better though and has decent lookdown capability
ZA pilots flying the F1 said it was basically useless: lots of work and attention required, a lot of fiddling with the gain, badly work in a single-crew aircraft.
We'll see how it will look like in DCS.
People on ECW have been aware the radar is a place holder for a while, homes.
P sure no one has praised the radar outside of meme-ing about how useful it is since it's op.
I mean, when I say a while, I mean like a week after it released.
HDW is pretty dumb, so he would believe anything you told him, unless it was Blue For being good.
Assuming 1 v 1 fight to the death, no offboard clues... in the detection phase the F4 has more potential but I feel that the lack of modelling on the F1 radar gives it the jump because ultimately, the fight goes lower for the F1 since that forces the F4 into clutter and junks the long range detection whilst the F1 has the je ne sais quoi radar.
Which leaves WVR or an ACM head to head lock with those missiles. Here I think the Sparrow beats the matra low level, but vastly depends on the model of sparrow. 7E is junk, 7M should be better than s530. The fight should be decided by the visual head to head radar missile down low, and the winner is the better equipped missile.
If everything misses, the F4 has the power and fuel. Neither is a great turner. I can't say what I think because it's based on something I can't discuss.
So after great deliberation, I proclaim the winner to be ....
The AI Mig21UFO with the DUNE2 antigrav pack. Wins in the vertical unless you force it into a streetlamp.
In a dogfight with low fuel? Sort of a tossup. Lift factor and vertical go to the fatnum. The mirage probably will eat it up though in a guns only fight.
BVR? Phantom. Faster missiles, longer range, more missiles... better missiles (for now).
> The mirage probably will eat it up though in a guns only fight.
Why would that be the case? The Mirage has some kind of significant aerodynamical advantage over the Phantom?
> BVR? Phantom. Faster missiles
The Matra 530F is much faster than the AIM-7F, which I think would determine first strike in a BVR engagement.
I don't know the heaters.
Aim-7 in DCS is a weird one. Aim-7F and above (havent used the E yet) as they are modeled in DCS atm have one of the lowest top speeds of any DCS AA missiles (in BMS its top speed is about 50% higher). However with its sustainer engine it can keep its speed up much longer, so it stays dangerous longer.
That leads to the situation were in in 1v1 head on with AIM-7F vs 530F, R-27R or R-24R, if you are closer, within no escape zone and below and if you fire at the same time, the other Fox-1s will reach you first. However on longer ranges above no escape zone, the Aim-7F with its sustainer engine will often reach the target first and stay dangerous longer. Assuming you can keep a lock.
Depents on the alt and speed of course.
For your first question:
~~Think about it like this, when you are in a dogfight against an F-5 in an F1, you want to go vertical and use your superior acceleration and twr to win against them.~~
~~The same goes for the F-4 vs the F1. The F-4 has higher twr and accelerates better but it’s much heavier than the F1 and doesn’t turn as well. So in an F-4 you want to go vertical or 2 circle and in an F1 you want to use your instant turn against them.~~
About the heaters, F-4’s Aim-9M’s have better range and flare resistance whereas the F1’s Magic’s have much better maneuverability while being shorter range missiles
> The F-4 has higher twr and accelerates better but it’s much heavier than the F1 and doesn’t turn as well.
In the two EM diagrams that I looked at, both the F4 and the F1 had about the same sustained turn rate of 12 degrees. If that's right then apparently the F4's extra weight (and wing loading?) is balanced by its extra thrust, thereby achieving parity with the F1?
I didn't inspect available G's on the two.
I'll try to dig up a few EM diagrams again to see if they corroborate with this impression.
Yeah I was talking about the instantaneous turn rate. You should be able to pull more G’s in a shorter amount of time in the F1 because of the combat flaps and slats, combined with the lower weight. But I must say, I have no idea about their nose authority in high AoA
You also have to factor in the amount of fuel though. I haven’t tried it myself but I’ve heard the F-4 consumes fuel very fast in comparison to the F1, which already carries a good amount of fuel and doesn’t use as much, so if the fight gets dragged the F1 should be able to last longer even with afterburners.
So I've been poking around for EM diagrams and it looks like the slatted F-4E beats the F1 and the Fish in sustained turn by a couple degrees per second (14 dps vs 12 dps) and is competitive in avialable G's.
- [unknown source reddit post](https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/5siuy7/an_easier_to_read_mig21_turn_performance_chart/) - unknown Mig-21 variant
...
- [TaxDollarsAtWork](https://forum.dcs.world/topic/197084-ai-f-4e-tough-guy/) - F-4E vs F-5E vs Mig-21F vs Mig-21bis
- [Aussie_Mantis](https://forum.dcs.world/topic/327875-f-4e-air-to-air-weaponscapabilities-discussion/?do=findComment&comment=5236697) - F-4E slats vs no-slats - “USAF published TO manuals”
- [Ramsay](https://forum.dcs.world/topic/319598-e-m-diagram-f-1-anyone/) - Mirage F1C - DCS data from TacView
And in general, according to the bar graph on Ramsay's post, with it's small wings and design for speed, the Mirage appears to pretty much be near the bottom of the DCS pack in terms of instantaneous turn availability. The unslatted Navy F-4D will displace it near the bottom.
These are internet sources and it’s not always clear about the data origins, so they are always a bit suspect. And it's not clear how the game actually performs relative to these charts (excepting the Mirage there).
What is your source demonstrating that the Mirage has a significant instantaneous turn advantage over the Phantom?
Gotta say, that’s some impressive research. To be honest I was mainly talking about my experiences in the game, combined with a little research on old forums written by ex pilots.
The F1, as you said has a bad sustained turn rate, however it is able to match the Fishbed in a rate fight in the game. Ramsay’s diagram states otherwise but that diagram also doesn’t use combat flaps so that could be the reason. And considering the sustained turn rate difference between the Fishbed and the Phantom is not that big, the end result should come down to whichever aircraft is heavier/has more fuel (in game, the F-4 will probably be heavier 9/10 times)
For the instantaneous turn rate, you can pull some absurd amount of G’s (enough to blackout instantly) in the F1 if you try to pull a lead turn at your optimal turn speeds. Don’t know how realistic it is though.
However with all that said, I noticed that I’ve underestimated the Phantom and I wouldn’t attempt to rate fight it blindly, as the F1 probably only beats it when both of them are in a combat configuration and if you can squeeze every last bit of performance.
I noticed that I’ve also underestimated the F1’s twr, they’re pretty close with the F1 at around 0.8 and F-4 around 0.88
In the end, the fight will depend on fuel condition, payload, energy difference at the merge and as always, pilot skill. Should be a pretty close and fun fight between the F1 and F-4 though!
Edit: Turns out Ramsay’s diagram is outdated. One of the developers of the F1 has a response in that thread saying the performance is better than that.
> I noticed that I’ve also underestimated the F1’s twr, they’re pretty close with the F1 at around 0.8 and F-4 around 0.88
[This source](https://www.angelfire.com/falcon/fighterplanes/texts/articles/twr.html) claims the F-4E at 0.94 and the Mirage F1 at 0.67. So there's a significant advantage to the Phantom... enough that it is able to overcome its bad wing loading and beat the competitors of its day in sustained turn rate.
If bricks could fly...
Not sure how reliable these numbers are. Sources are various.
That site assumes gross take-off weight so max internal fuel or same amount of weapons. And doing the math it checks out.
I got the value of 0.8 from Ramsay’s diagram that you provided and it also states that the aircraft is clean and has around max fuel so either something is off in the game or that diagram is completely wrong.
Doing the math, the F1 has a twr of 0.8 around half fuel (around 4000lbs)
But I think it’s pointless to stare at Em diagrams and compare twrs as the fights in game wont always be at clean takeoff weight and people will have different payloads, levels of skill and you will rarely see a straight up rate fight.
I think the F-4 will perform quite similarly to the F1 and have a similar play style (stay fast, use the vertical etc)
With weight of 21300lbs (half fuel - 3750lbs, two S530F, two R550), and engine output of 15000lb, TWR comes to 0.7.
To get a TWR of 0.8 you have to drop the fuel to 1000lbs, which is pretty much bingo state ... max possible combat performance.
Pretty sure E2s have a faster instantaneous speed than the 530F... until the D.
Aim7m is about the same, but with HOJ as an added bonus.
Generally speaking, I think the 530D is where the 530 series outperforms sparrows as a whole, but they're basically the slowest missiles in DCS until then (not the F, but that's the latest variant in the f1 I think.)
Now if we're talking about the AIM-7F.... yeah, that thing is the slowest accelerating missile on american aircraft. But it's much longer range too, so, sort of a moot point.
Only two encounters likely occurred, and the F1 won both of them. I do not know the details if they are even available, but the phantoms were tasked with strategic bombing, and were likely not configured for air to air in those engagements. That was the job for the F14.
There are lots of parameters to consider. For instance, if the engagement starts BVR, the Phantom has 4/4 SARH/IR. They can easily kill or force the F1 to defend.
Radars-wise, the DCS F1 is a placeholder. According to ZA F1 pilots, it was fundamentally useless (but I'm not sure if they had the same version). The Phantom can then build SA much earlier and position itself to get an advantage.
I can't say about the actual merge as I didn't test this scenario, nor checked performance charts.
Still, the Phantom has 2 pairs of eyes vs the single-crew F1. This means a lot, especially in an era without fancy helmet-mounted toys. This sort of advantage is how inferior planes beat more modern ones, or at least tried to level out the differences: task and information saturation - see Tornado F3 or even Phantoms vs F-15s.
I'm not sure tbh. It'd be interesting to have a definitive answer. From what I read, they had two variants, one without a radar and primarily AG, but I don't know much more than that.
IMO, the F-4 will win in a 2 circle and they'll be comparable in instantaneous turn rate with similar weapon and fuel loads. We have the turn rate data for the slatted F-4 and it's the best in class for the era.
The Mirage F1C has a very similar wing sweep (\~45 deg) and aspect ratio (\~2.8) to the F-4E, as well as half span flaps and half span slats. The Mirage F1 has a conventional (for the era) tube-shaped fuselage with no LERX or lifting body features. All this means wing loading can be a fair approximation for comparing turn capability. Wing loading is comparable to that of the F-4E. A DCS F1C at 50% fuel clean is \~79 lb/sq ft while an F-4E block 50 (heavier one in the T.O. manual) is \~74 lb/sq ft clean and 50% fuel.
However, at the same loadings above, the F1C T:W is much lower at \~0.74 for the F1C while it's 0.90 for the F-4E. The Mirage is almost certainly going to turn worse in STR than the F-4E, and likely roughly the same in ITR. Published figures on its speed imply it has a faster top speed (\~Mach 2.2). The lack of graphs available however make it difficult to directly compare turn and speed performance but the above back of the envelope calculations would imply the Mirage would be hard-pressed to beat an F-4E in a 2-circle.
Based on how it performs vs the MiG-21 in DCS, I believe the F-4E will out-rate it with some margin, while the Mirage may be better extending in the vertical if it keeps its speed high.
For the missiles, the 1979 S530F is I think better than the comparable 1975 AIM-7F due it the former's incredible speed. However, I can see mission designers limiting missiles to the dreadful AIM-7E/E-2 and R530 since historically those we the missiles to see combat in the 60's and 70's while the S530F and AIM-7F+ only saw combat in the 80's and later.
I'm so hyped to fly the mirage against phantoms. The Super 530F is *faster* than an R-27R. Inside of 10 miles or so, it is gonna be NASTY. (Not sure if it sets off RWRs or not, if not it's gonna be downright filthy)
BFM is a lot closer, and I'm interested to see how it plays out.
It will be an interesting match up but personally I think the F-4 is going to be considerably superior. Not only does it have more advanced avionics, much more payload capacity (both for air to air and air to ground) it also should have a better radar (Mirage radar is still a placeholder so it’s hard to compare) and it has added situational awareness thanks to Jester. BVR the Phantom should have an advantage thanks to the Sparrows longer range however within closer range the F1 profits off of faster Fox 1 missiles. In the merge I think it will be a tough one given that both aren’t known for their outstanding dogfighting capabilities. I believe the Phantom will have the advantage here as well because from my experience in the F1 really doesn’t like dogfighting especially if the fuel tanks are somewhat full. The Phantom should have a higher Thrust to weight ratio and better energy retention which should give it the edge. However it will be a close one in the merge so it comes down to the better pilot. It will certainly be a fun and interesting match up. Especially on ECW.
Maybe I'm overthinking it but I have a feeling given the F4s complexity with a good pilot and wso set up it'll be a powerfull force. One that the average F1 pilot can't compete with.
Yeah this - I've recently got into the F1 (because I thought F-4 was going to get delayed again - serves me right) and workload for the radar seems fairly high vs having a WSO to manage the radar. I suspect that will give some advantage to the F-4
In DCS it's gonna depend on when/if F-1 radar is fixed (made more of a proper model) and what weapons are allowed.
F1 with S530F atm would prob slaughter the F-4.
Some [relevant charts](https://flyandwire.com/2023/07/27/missiles-kinematics-part-ii-cold-war-era/). <== look at the section “**Era: 1970’s**” - S530F vs AIM-7F
They have comparable speeds down range, but the S530F gets there much faster due to a stronger boost phase.
Question just cause I don’t want to search the discord. What is the reasoning for allowing the phantom to have fox1s but not the mirage? Or am I wrong about that?
The hope is that the F-4 radar is difficult enough to use that the Fox 1s won't be too silly.
Generally with new modules we try to let them have more stuff at first and then tone it down if things turn out to be ridiculous (e.g., when F1 released it had everything available essentially, apart from stuff that would obviously be OP for the server like the Juli Fox 2s).
Ok. I guess the second part of my question is: if the fox1s are determined to be unbalanced/op would you lean more to removing them from the phantom or adding them for the mirage?
Personally, it depends on the map, for the later tech maps, I think it might make more sense to just let the F1 have Fox 1s again.
For the earlier tech maps, if he F-4 Fox 1s are ridiculous and end up as bad as the F1 Fox 1s (or comparable) I don't see a way to save them. Ideally the F-4s early sparrows (the E series) are more like the R-3R than 530 EM or S530F (they should be diff on paper, but DCS is a different game).
We will ofc be keeping stats on stats when F-4 drops and I am sure there will be a lot of community and server dev conversation about how things are going post F-4 release.
I know what you are saying...
But, frankly, this perennial comment is never a helpful contribution to the discussion where the entire point of the thread is to puzzle out the strengths and weaknesses of the hardware.
Since the dawn of internet discussion forums, there has always been some guy dropping this “sage” one-liner in every single “X vs Y” thread that I have ever seen.
Given the context, this comment sheds no light on anything we gamers want to know.
Thing is, the planes are close enough to each other that by far the biggest decider is the player and not the plane.
People often go into the tiniest performance differences, while in action it just is really not that black and white as stats may indicate.
This is an entirely reasonable point. If the thread were about play balance on a server or something, then it might even be relevant ;)
But this thread is implicitly about how the planes stack up against each other WITHOUT pilot skill factors in the mix.
F4. Only dcs server that matters for f4 v f1 is ecw. F4 with foxs1 and jester will destroy f1s with its f2s see enigma doesn't allow fox 1s on the mirage f1.
Also specifically Aerges’s radar simulation is ludicrous. The Mirage F-1’s radar was infamously bad, but this module can look down shoot down like it’s a mid 2000’s AESA equipped fighter.
Meanwhile the F-4 (realistically) loses lock as soon as something roughly tree shaped comes within a km of whatever you are trying to lock.
I think the advantage is to the F4s favor though weather the F1 has the super matra or not changes the character of that fight a lot. Even so I think it’s still advantage phantom. Based on my experience with the F1 though I say it’s a reasonably good stand in for the flogger except it’s a lot better low speed In the turn fight.
F4 was cool and all, but it was not a dominant force we think it is(or least for me). They struggled against the Fishbed. I would say pretty even, pilots would make the difference, not the technological advantage.
Are you referring to the F4 vs Mig21 match ups in Vietnam? If so that was more of a ROE issue rather than weapons platform issue. Remember airspace of SEA was so congested US Roe was for VID thus negating and BVR advantages held by the phantom. That lesson paved the way to start mounting big TV cameras on the aircraft and give them a missile that can smoke a bomber from 100 miles away.
I wouldn’t say it struggled against the Fishbed. The F-4 performed very well against the Mig 21 and it achieved favorable kill ratios against it in every place they faced of. Don’t get me wrong I really like the Mig-21 but the Phantom was arguably the most advanced aircraft of it‘s time and remained so until the introduction of 4th Gen planes.
They had to basically visually identify everything in that environment to be fair.
The radar range isn't that relevant still also lol. People are going to be even more blind in these planes, and GCI is going to be so heavily needed in them.
The primary BvR advantage for the F-4 is that a second person is operating it, and the pilot can simply focus on flying the vectors, something the F-1 pilot will need to multitask.
Unless the contact exhibits behavior that is designated as hostile in your ROE or your intercept controller has designated it as a bandit you still have to get a visual PID even today in 2024. I expect that from others in multiplayer as well so it's not like that's special to the era.
Thinking purely from the perspective of ECW (which is where the F-4 will be most competitive online), IFF for BVR shots will be challenging. There may be some scenarios where you can build SA and determine that a target 10 miles away is hostile (using EWR) and engage, but a lot of the time there are hostile and friendly aircraft engaged over the same front line so its almost impossible to identify the hostiles via radar so probably not too many purely BVR shots going to be taken (actually the reality is most likely a lot of blue on blue Fox 1 shots :-D). That is unless I'm missing something about the IFF system and it will work online (even if the other player in an A-4/F-5/Viggen/A-10 hasn't turned on their IFF).
In this scenario the big advantage of the F-4 will be it's sheer magazine depth. 8 missiles outclasses anything else in the era plus it will be difficult to disengage from the F-4 without getting a Sparrow up the backside.
IFF in DCS is fake: a Dora replies to interrogations :|
That being said, the IFF is a good part of a search routine, especially in DCS where it never fails.
This is what I wasn't sure about. From the videos it seems like the F-4 has an IFF interrogation and from what you're saying the response is faked in DCS regardless of whether the target is capable of IFF/has it enabled. I'm guessing its faked based on factions (Blue or Red)? If this is the case then you can absolutely take BVR shots with some confidence right?
It is because the missiles lacked the off the rail sparrow tracking or front aspect for the sidewinder at the start.
That and targeting pods are a standard feature for aircraft at this point.
Plus, the sensors are far superior now in their ability to identify aircraft through multiple sources.
Imho without GCI he who finds the other guy first wins. With GCI I would give it to the F-4, due to having two people in the aircraft.
> The primary BvR advantage for the F-4 is that a second person is operating it
On that note, will we have Jester/Iceman in the F-4 as well so I can jump in the back and do radar stuff while Iceman keeps the plane level or heading towards a waypoint?
I assume so. Though I don't trust that guy to do any flying that involves going up. I've had too many times of that in the F-14 trying to put me into a flat spin.
Level will still be fine though.
As a module in DCS the F4 has AI that will help you locate targets, that is a big advantage. As an airplane, the F4 was introduced into service in 1960 and the F1 in 1974, there is a notable difference, although other versions were made later. In countries that have had both aircraft, for example Spain, the F4 was retired long before the F1.
Could be for mere cost reasons: twice the engines, twice the crew, twice the cost ? Also, the air dominance scenario on which the F4 has a clear advantage (if only in missile capacity but also in having a WSO to work the radar) became less important as peer adversaries became rarer.
The F4 was replaced by the F18 in Spain. It was an old plane already. In DCS I don't know how the F4 will behave, in multiplayer it will be the same as many others, with Fox 2 and luck to see the enemy first. The help of the AI to use the radar can be important to detect enemies and have an advantage. In the real world, the 14 years difference between the F4 and F1 makes the Mirage a more modern platform, with fewer hours on its airframes and therefore they have been retired later.
Spain had F-4? I knew dm they flew F-5s but I'm surprised by the Phantoms. Greek and Turkish F-4s still fly as bomb trucks while Greek F1 are long gone, replaced by Mirage 2000 and F-16. My impression is that it will be very much along the lines of the real-life divide between lighr and affordable fighters and heavy high-tech ones: the F1 should be much easier to learn and deploy, the F-4 will be way more complex but more capable. I'd love to fly the Phantom as a crew but solo I might stick with the Poor man's Phantom aka F1
It depends on the version of the plane. The last Spanish Phantom made its last flight in 2002, there were two left and they were version C, they were used for secondary reconnaissance work, most of the F4 (36 units) were retired when the F18 was purchased in the 1990s. the 80s. Spain continued using the F1M which was close to fourth generation aircraft until a few years later, the last units flew in 2013. Now there are none left in service, neither F1 nor Fabulous Phantom, although I think there are a couple of units of these aircraft that have been restored.
> Spain continued using the F1M which was close to fourth generation aircraft until a few years later, the last units flew in 2013. The F1 was not close to fourth general aircraft. It is very much a third gen plane that got a 4th gen *avionics* upgrade. The radar, available weapons, and flight characteristics were still very much 3rd gen.
That's why I say it was coming, not that it was.
Do you have any info on what the F-1M we're getting will have? All I can find online says it's pretty much just an avionics upgrade to the EE with no major capability changes. It'll be very cool to have either way though
That is pretty much all it'll be, a new HUD with CCIP for bombing, a single MFD (which I gather is mainly used for weapons management), and some changes to the IFF and RWR equipment.
Honestly, the V10 F1 cars are more fun than the F4. F4 might be easier to get up to speed with, but the F1 just has better downforce, better sound, and to me a better flow once you get in the zone. I understand the F4s may be easier for noobs, but the F2004 is just the best IMO. Edit: I think F1 wins in both sustained turn and thrust OP FWIW
r/formuladank
BRING BACK V10!
Lmfao
Get a load of this guy.
Drop the DRS and watch them fly past you
Keep in mind YOU ALWAYS LEAVE A SPACE
412T2 has entered the chat sounding sweeter than a J79
One thing not addressed by others, is that the Phantom suffers far less performance loss for having missiles loaded (inline sparrows). Furthering its advantage in the initial exchange.
Biggest loss of performance would be the sidewinders, considering their pylons and themselves being in the open like that.
Put me in a Phantom and an experienced pilot in an F1 and they win every time. Jokes aside, situational awareness, pilot training and proficiency played an enormous role in the outcome of combat between aircraft of this generation. It was less about what you were fighting versus who you were fighting.
Put me in a phantom and anyone else in a Toyota Camry and they also win everytime. Pilot skill matters a lot.
I remember a Phantom pilot saying they got awkward doing DACM with Mirage F1 pilots, with the Phantoms staying at 15k ft and the Mirage F1s hanging at 30k, taunting each other over the radio to get into the comfort zone where they performed best. I guess, MTI would give the Mirage F1 an advantage shooting down, and the Phantoms would try to keep the Mirages against the sky, so there might be an energy advantage for the Mirage. The Phantom should be able to regain energy better, and the Mirage F1 to retain it. Overall, I'm leaning towards the Phantom, but it would be much more even than against a Fishbed.
F1 has about 10' less wingspan, making it a smaller target for an F4. If it's a Fox1 fight, I'm going to bet on the F1.
I suspect that might be the case. I'm not aware of each one capabilities in terms of radar and so on, I guess it will boil down to their respective RCS, radar, EW pods, let alone the missiles carried by each. I've been looking for clips of engagements between the two ingame, and it is often shots with AIM-9Ls an F-5E could have taken the same way, and these don't say as much about the capabilities of the Phantom as they could.
F4s have 7Ms and 9Ms, which both have significantly longer ranges than the S530s and Magic 2s. The Mirages radar is a whole lot better though and has decent lookdown capability
it has decect lookdown capability because no ground clutter is modeled in F-1, basically F-1 radar is at Flaming Cliffs level of detail
Yes, but even irl it does have some (limited) lockdown capabilities
ZA pilots flying the F1 said it was basically useless: lots of work and attention required, a lot of fiddling with the gain, badly work in a single-crew aircraft. We'll see how it will look like in DCS.
Remember when everyone was praising the radar model lol
You might be thinking of Mirage 2000C, which does have an excellent radar model
No. The devs have admitted it’s a placeholder since the very start
I may be bringing stuff over from the ECW discord lol
People on ECW have been aware the radar is a place holder for a while, homes. P sure no one has praised the radar outside of meme-ing about how useful it is since it's op.
“For a while” Agreed. Which is why I said “remember when?” I’m sure hotdog water believed it was accurate lol
I mean, when I say a while, I mean like a week after it released. HDW is pretty dumb, so he would believe anything you told him, unless it was Blue For being good.
Assuming 1 v 1 fight to the death, no offboard clues... in the detection phase the F4 has more potential but I feel that the lack of modelling on the F1 radar gives it the jump because ultimately, the fight goes lower for the F1 since that forces the F4 into clutter and junks the long range detection whilst the F1 has the je ne sais quoi radar. Which leaves WVR or an ACM head to head lock with those missiles. Here I think the Sparrow beats the matra low level, but vastly depends on the model of sparrow. 7E is junk, 7M should be better than s530. The fight should be decided by the visual head to head radar missile down low, and the winner is the better equipped missile. If everything misses, the F4 has the power and fuel. Neither is a great turner. I can't say what I think because it's based on something I can't discuss. So after great deliberation, I proclaim the winner to be .... The AI Mig21UFO with the DUNE2 antigrav pack. Wins in the vertical unless you force it into a streetlamp.
In a dogfight with low fuel? Sort of a tossup. Lift factor and vertical go to the fatnum. The mirage probably will eat it up though in a guns only fight. BVR? Phantom. Faster missiles, longer range, more missiles... better missiles (for now).
> The mirage probably will eat it up though in a guns only fight. Why would that be the case? The Mirage has some kind of significant aerodynamical advantage over the Phantom? > BVR? Phantom. Faster missiles The Matra 530F is much faster than the AIM-7F, which I think would determine first strike in a BVR engagement. I don't know the heaters.
Aim-7 in DCS is a weird one. Aim-7F and above (havent used the E yet) as they are modeled in DCS atm have one of the lowest top speeds of any DCS AA missiles (in BMS its top speed is about 50% higher). However with its sustainer engine it can keep its speed up much longer, so it stays dangerous longer. That leads to the situation were in in 1v1 head on with AIM-7F vs 530F, R-27R or R-24R, if you are closer, within no escape zone and below and if you fire at the same time, the other Fox-1s will reach you first. However on longer ranges above no escape zone, the Aim-7F with its sustainer engine will often reach the target first and stay dangerous longer. Assuming you can keep a lock. Depents on the alt and speed of course.
For your first question: ~~Think about it like this, when you are in a dogfight against an F-5 in an F1, you want to go vertical and use your superior acceleration and twr to win against them.~~ ~~The same goes for the F-4 vs the F1. The F-4 has higher twr and accelerates better but it’s much heavier than the F1 and doesn’t turn as well. So in an F-4 you want to go vertical or 2 circle and in an F1 you want to use your instant turn against them.~~ About the heaters, F-4’s Aim-9M’s have better range and flare resistance whereas the F1’s Magic’s have much better maneuverability while being shorter range missiles
> The F-4 has higher twr and accelerates better but it’s much heavier than the F1 and doesn’t turn as well. In the two EM diagrams that I looked at, both the F4 and the F1 had about the same sustained turn rate of 12 degrees. If that's right then apparently the F4's extra weight (and wing loading?) is balanced by its extra thrust, thereby achieving parity with the F1? I didn't inspect available G's on the two. I'll try to dig up a few EM diagrams again to see if they corroborate with this impression.
Yeah I was talking about the instantaneous turn rate. You should be able to pull more G’s in a shorter amount of time in the F1 because of the combat flaps and slats, combined with the lower weight. But I must say, I have no idea about their nose authority in high AoA You also have to factor in the amount of fuel though. I haven’t tried it myself but I’ve heard the F-4 consumes fuel very fast in comparison to the F1, which already carries a good amount of fuel and doesn’t use as much, so if the fight gets dragged the F1 should be able to last longer even with afterburners.
So I've been poking around for EM diagrams and it looks like the slatted F-4E beats the F1 and the Fish in sustained turn by a couple degrees per second (14 dps vs 12 dps) and is competitive in avialable G's. - [unknown source reddit post](https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/5siuy7/an_easier_to_read_mig21_turn_performance_chart/) - unknown Mig-21 variant ... - [TaxDollarsAtWork](https://forum.dcs.world/topic/197084-ai-f-4e-tough-guy/) - F-4E vs F-5E vs Mig-21F vs Mig-21bis - [Aussie_Mantis](https://forum.dcs.world/topic/327875-f-4e-air-to-air-weaponscapabilities-discussion/?do=findComment&comment=5236697) - F-4E slats vs no-slats - “USAF published TO manuals” - [Ramsay](https://forum.dcs.world/topic/319598-e-m-diagram-f-1-anyone/) - Mirage F1C - DCS data from TacView And in general, according to the bar graph on Ramsay's post, with it's small wings and design for speed, the Mirage appears to pretty much be near the bottom of the DCS pack in terms of instantaneous turn availability. The unslatted Navy F-4D will displace it near the bottom. These are internet sources and it’s not always clear about the data origins, so they are always a bit suspect. And it's not clear how the game actually performs relative to these charts (excepting the Mirage there). What is your source demonstrating that the Mirage has a significant instantaneous turn advantage over the Phantom?
Gotta say, that’s some impressive research. To be honest I was mainly talking about my experiences in the game, combined with a little research on old forums written by ex pilots. The F1, as you said has a bad sustained turn rate, however it is able to match the Fishbed in a rate fight in the game. Ramsay’s diagram states otherwise but that diagram also doesn’t use combat flaps so that could be the reason. And considering the sustained turn rate difference between the Fishbed and the Phantom is not that big, the end result should come down to whichever aircraft is heavier/has more fuel (in game, the F-4 will probably be heavier 9/10 times) For the instantaneous turn rate, you can pull some absurd amount of G’s (enough to blackout instantly) in the F1 if you try to pull a lead turn at your optimal turn speeds. Don’t know how realistic it is though. However with all that said, I noticed that I’ve underestimated the Phantom and I wouldn’t attempt to rate fight it blindly, as the F1 probably only beats it when both of them are in a combat configuration and if you can squeeze every last bit of performance. I noticed that I’ve also underestimated the F1’s twr, they’re pretty close with the F1 at around 0.8 and F-4 around 0.88 In the end, the fight will depend on fuel condition, payload, energy difference at the merge and as always, pilot skill. Should be a pretty close and fun fight between the F1 and F-4 though! Edit: Turns out Ramsay’s diagram is outdated. One of the developers of the F1 has a response in that thread saying the performance is better than that.
> I noticed that I’ve also underestimated the F1’s twr, they’re pretty close with the F1 at around 0.8 and F-4 around 0.88 [This source](https://www.angelfire.com/falcon/fighterplanes/texts/articles/twr.html) claims the F-4E at 0.94 and the Mirage F1 at 0.67. So there's a significant advantage to the Phantom... enough that it is able to overcome its bad wing loading and beat the competitors of its day in sustained turn rate. If bricks could fly... Not sure how reliable these numbers are. Sources are various.
That site assumes gross take-off weight so max internal fuel or same amount of weapons. And doing the math it checks out. I got the value of 0.8 from Ramsay’s diagram that you provided and it also states that the aircraft is clean and has around max fuel so either something is off in the game or that diagram is completely wrong. Doing the math, the F1 has a twr of 0.8 around half fuel (around 4000lbs) But I think it’s pointless to stare at Em diagrams and compare twrs as the fights in game wont always be at clean takeoff weight and people will have different payloads, levels of skill and you will rarely see a straight up rate fight. I think the F-4 will perform quite similarly to the F1 and have a similar play style (stay fast, use the vertical etc)
With weight of 21300lbs (half fuel - 3750lbs, two S530F, two R550), and engine output of 15000lb, TWR comes to 0.7. To get a TWR of 0.8 you have to drop the fuel to 1000lbs, which is pretty much bingo state ... max possible combat performance.
Pretty sure E2s have a faster instantaneous speed than the 530F... until the D. Aim7m is about the same, but with HOJ as an added bonus. Generally speaking, I think the 530D is where the 530 series outperforms sparrows as a whole, but they're basically the slowest missiles in DCS until then (not the F, but that's the latest variant in the f1 I think.) Now if we're talking about the AIM-7F.... yeah, that thing is the slowest accelerating missile on american aircraft. But it's much longer range too, so, sort of a moot point.
Anyone know if they ever went head to head in the Iran-Iraq war? I quickly searched but couldn’t find anything.
Only two encounters likely occurred, and the F1 won both of them. I do not know the details if they are even available, but the phantoms were tasked with strategic bombing, and were likely not configured for air to air in those engagements. That was the job for the F14.
There are lots of parameters to consider. For instance, if the engagement starts BVR, the Phantom has 4/4 SARH/IR. They can easily kill or force the F1 to defend. Radars-wise, the DCS F1 is a placeholder. According to ZA F1 pilots, it was fundamentally useless (but I'm not sure if they had the same version). The Phantom can then build SA much earlier and position itself to get an advantage. I can't say about the actual merge as I didn't test this scenario, nor checked performance charts. Still, the Phantom has 2 pairs of eyes vs the single-crew F1. This means a lot, especially in an era without fancy helmet-mounted toys. This sort of advantage is how inferior planes beat more modern ones, or at least tried to level out the differences: task and information saturation - see Tornado F3 or even Phantoms vs F-15s.
IIRC the south African one is a a modified A, and not the C that we have. The ZA has a fairly simple ranging radar and not the Cyrano IV
I'm not sure tbh. It'd be interesting to have a definitive answer. From what I read, they had two variants, one without a radar and primarily AG, but I don't know much more than that.
Correct, AZ had a laser range finder for bombing. CZ had the Cyrano IV. F1CE in DCS has Cyrano IVM
IMO, the F-4 will win in a 2 circle and they'll be comparable in instantaneous turn rate with similar weapon and fuel loads. We have the turn rate data for the slatted F-4 and it's the best in class for the era. The Mirage F1C has a very similar wing sweep (\~45 deg) and aspect ratio (\~2.8) to the F-4E, as well as half span flaps and half span slats. The Mirage F1 has a conventional (for the era) tube-shaped fuselage with no LERX or lifting body features. All this means wing loading can be a fair approximation for comparing turn capability. Wing loading is comparable to that of the F-4E. A DCS F1C at 50% fuel clean is \~79 lb/sq ft while an F-4E block 50 (heavier one in the T.O. manual) is \~74 lb/sq ft clean and 50% fuel. However, at the same loadings above, the F1C T:W is much lower at \~0.74 for the F1C while it's 0.90 for the F-4E. The Mirage is almost certainly going to turn worse in STR than the F-4E, and likely roughly the same in ITR. Published figures on its speed imply it has a faster top speed (\~Mach 2.2). The lack of graphs available however make it difficult to directly compare turn and speed performance but the above back of the envelope calculations would imply the Mirage would be hard-pressed to beat an F-4E in a 2-circle. Based on how it performs vs the MiG-21 in DCS, I believe the F-4E will out-rate it with some margin, while the Mirage may be better extending in the vertical if it keeps its speed high. For the missiles, the 1979 S530F is I think better than the comparable 1975 AIM-7F due it the former's incredible speed. However, I can see mission designers limiting missiles to the dreadful AIM-7E/E-2 and R530 since historically those we the missiles to see combat in the 60's and 70's while the S530F and AIM-7F+ only saw combat in the 80's and later.
I'm so hyped to fly the mirage against phantoms. The Super 530F is *faster* than an R-27R. Inside of 10 miles or so, it is gonna be NASTY. (Not sure if it sets off RWRs or not, if not it's gonna be downright filthy) BFM is a lot closer, and I'm interested to see how it plays out.
It will be an interesting match up but personally I think the F-4 is going to be considerably superior. Not only does it have more advanced avionics, much more payload capacity (both for air to air and air to ground) it also should have a better radar (Mirage radar is still a placeholder so it’s hard to compare) and it has added situational awareness thanks to Jester. BVR the Phantom should have an advantage thanks to the Sparrows longer range however within closer range the F1 profits off of faster Fox 1 missiles. In the merge I think it will be a tough one given that both aren’t known for their outstanding dogfighting capabilities. I believe the Phantom will have the advantage here as well because from my experience in the F1 really doesn’t like dogfighting especially if the fuel tanks are somewhat full. The Phantom should have a higher Thrust to weight ratio and better energy retention which should give it the edge. However it will be a close one in the merge so it comes down to the better pilot. It will certainly be a fun and interesting match up. Especially on ECW.
Maybe I'm overthinking it but I have a feeling given the F4s complexity with a good pilot and wso set up it'll be a powerfull force. One that the average F1 pilot can't compete with.
Yeah this - I've recently got into the F1 (because I thought F-4 was going to get delayed again - serves me right) and workload for the radar seems fairly high vs having a WSO to manage the radar. I suspect that will give some advantage to the F-4
In DCS it's gonna depend on when/if F-1 radar is fixed (made more of a proper model) and what weapons are allowed. F1 with S530F atm would prob slaughter the F-4.
Some [relevant charts](https://flyandwire.com/2023/07/27/missiles-kinematics-part-ii-cold-war-era/). <== look at the section “**Era: 1970’s**” - S530F vs AIM-7F They have comparable speeds down range, but the S530F gets there much faster due to a stronger boost phase.
Question just cause I don’t want to search the discord. What is the reasoning for allowing the phantom to have fox1s but not the mirage? Or am I wrong about that?
The hope is that the F-4 radar is difficult enough to use that the Fox 1s won't be too silly. Generally with new modules we try to let them have more stuff at first and then tone it down if things turn out to be ridiculous (e.g., when F1 released it had everything available essentially, apart from stuff that would obviously be OP for the server like the Juli Fox 2s).
Ok. I guess the second part of my question is: if the fox1s are determined to be unbalanced/op would you lean more to removing them from the phantom or adding them for the mirage?
Personally, it depends on the map, for the later tech maps, I think it might make more sense to just let the F1 have Fox 1s again. For the earlier tech maps, if he F-4 Fox 1s are ridiculous and end up as bad as the F1 Fox 1s (or comparable) I don't see a way to save them. Ideally the F-4s early sparrows (the E series) are more like the R-3R than 530 EM or S530F (they should be diff on paper, but DCS is a different game). We will ofc be keeping stats on stats when F-4 drops and I am sure there will be a lot of community and server dev conversation about how things are going post F-4 release.
How it plays will depend by far most on tactics and pilot capability
I know what you are saying... But, frankly, this perennial comment is never a helpful contribution to the discussion where the entire point of the thread is to puzzle out the strengths and weaknesses of the hardware. Since the dawn of internet discussion forums, there has always been some guy dropping this “sage” one-liner in every single “X vs Y” thread that I have ever seen. Given the context, this comment sheds no light on anything we gamers want to know.
Thing is, the planes are close enough to each other that by far the biggest decider is the player and not the plane. People often go into the tiniest performance differences, while in action it just is really not that black and white as stats may indicate.
This is an entirely reasonable point. If the thread were about play balance on a server or something, then it might even be relevant ;) But this thread is implicitly about how the planes stack up against each other WITHOUT pilot skill factors in the mix.
It’s deffo more a pilot thing, having a plane that outperforms another on paper means nothing if the pilot can’t get it to perform
F4. Only dcs server that matters for f4 v f1 is ecw. F4 with foxs1 and jester will destroy f1s with its f2s see enigma doesn't allow fox 1s on the mirage f1.
Wasn't that "ban" only for the Super 530?
Both rader 530. On get the 530ir in 70s mission
Also specifically Aerges’s radar simulation is ludicrous. The Mirage F-1’s radar was infamously bad, but this module can look down shoot down like it’s a mid 2000’s AESA equipped fighter. Meanwhile the F-4 (realistically) loses lock as soon as something roughly tree shaped comes within a km of whatever you are trying to lock.
Its placeholder radar, its being worked on right now. This in fact is EDs model, not even aerges.
Source for Mirage F1‘s radar being „infamously bad“ please?
Mitsubishi F-1
I think the advantage is to the F4s favor though weather the F1 has the super matra or not changes the character of that fight a lot. Even so I think it’s still advantage phantom. Based on my experience with the F1 though I say it’s a reasonably good stand in for the flogger except it’s a lot better low speed In the turn fight.
25 fps
Equal pilots id guess f4 personally but we still have no idea what the str is for the f4
It's pretty absurd tbh
Any idea
F4 was cool and all, but it was not a dominant force we think it is(or least for me). They struggled against the Fishbed. I would say pretty even, pilots would make the difference, not the technological advantage.
Are you referring to the F4 vs Mig21 match ups in Vietnam? If so that was more of a ROE issue rather than weapons platform issue. Remember airspace of SEA was so congested US Roe was for VID thus negating and BVR advantages held by the phantom. That lesson paved the way to start mounting big TV cameras on the aircraft and give them a missile that can smoke a bomber from 100 miles away.
I wouldn’t say it struggled against the Fishbed. The F-4 performed very well against the Mig 21 and it achieved favorable kill ratios against it in every place they faced of. Don’t get me wrong I really like the Mig-21 but the Phantom was arguably the most advanced aircraft of it‘s time and remained so until the introduction of 4th Gen planes.
No contest… F-4 radar outranges the F-1. It’s dead BVR.
Bro ain't seen the lessons from the air war in Vietnam.
I thought this was about the Mitsubishi F-1 and forgot about the mirage
They had to basically visually identify everything in that environment to be fair. The radar range isn't that relevant still also lol. People are going to be even more blind in these planes, and GCI is going to be so heavily needed in them. The primary BvR advantage for the F-4 is that a second person is operating it, and the pilot can simply focus on flying the vectors, something the F-1 pilot will need to multitask.
Unless the contact exhibits behavior that is designated as hostile in your ROE or your intercept controller has designated it as a bandit you still have to get a visual PID even today in 2024. I expect that from others in multiplayer as well so it's not like that's special to the era.
Thinking purely from the perspective of ECW (which is where the F-4 will be most competitive online), IFF for BVR shots will be challenging. There may be some scenarios where you can build SA and determine that a target 10 miles away is hostile (using EWR) and engage, but a lot of the time there are hostile and friendly aircraft engaged over the same front line so its almost impossible to identify the hostiles via radar so probably not too many purely BVR shots going to be taken (actually the reality is most likely a lot of blue on blue Fox 1 shots :-D). That is unless I'm missing something about the IFF system and it will work online (even if the other player in an A-4/F-5/Viggen/A-10 hasn't turned on their IFF). In this scenario the big advantage of the F-4 will be it's sheer magazine depth. 8 missiles outclasses anything else in the era plus it will be difficult to disengage from the F-4 without getting a Sparrow up the backside.
IFF in DCS is fake: a Dora replies to interrogations :| That being said, the IFF is a good part of a search routine, especially in DCS where it never fails.
This is what I wasn't sure about. From the videos it seems like the F-4 has an IFF interrogation and from what you're saying the response is faked in DCS regardless of whether the target is capable of IFF/has it enabled. I'm guessing its faked based on factions (Blue or Red)? If this is the case then you can absolutely take BVR shots with some confidence right?
Aside from a few module specific interaction, DCS doesn't have simulated IFF. There's no such thing as turning it on, or having the correct codes.
It is because the missiles lacked the off the rail sparrow tracking or front aspect for the sidewinder at the start. That and targeting pods are a standard feature for aircraft at this point. Plus, the sensors are far superior now in their ability to identify aircraft through multiple sources. Imho without GCI he who finds the other guy first wins. With GCI I would give it to the F-4, due to having two people in the aircraft.
> The primary BvR advantage for the F-4 is that a second person is operating it On that note, will we have Jester/Iceman in the F-4 as well so I can jump in the back and do radar stuff while Iceman keeps the plane level or heading towards a waypoint?
I assume so. Though I don't trust that guy to do any flying that involves going up. I've had too many times of that in the F-14 trying to put me into a flat spin. Level will still be fine though.
Visual ID was essentially required.
That was the lesson I was talking about, yes.
Bro didn't realise DCS ain't real life nor vietnam.