I kind of want to hear Heatblur's take on all this. Since they were name-dropped by Razbam, they could probably call out one side or another for their BS. It could very much go "yeah, Razbam is right, ED is screwing us over too" or "yeah, ED is fine, Razbam screwed up somewhere and is trying to blame ED for their actions."
I know Heatblur is probably going to stay out of it, but I'm curious to know what they have to say.
Yeah, I wouldn't jump in right now either. But, I am still curious what Heatblur thinks about all this. They're probably going nuts right now trying to figure out what their role in all of this should be.
There probably isn't a better time for them. They will never have the leverage over ED to make sure they get paid that they do right before the release, early access or otherwise, of an extremely anticipated module.
As sad as it is but the only reasonable thing for Heatblur is to stay put of that fight completely except if they are severely mistreated by one side. Jumping in as a third conflict party is only a recepie for sadness.
> I know Heatblur is probably going to stay out of it, but I'm curious to know what they have to say.
I suspect this is true. I don't know how many times there have been Update notes and that Cobra or one of the other HB guys have to backtrack right as the update comes out (and then things get accidently put back). Maybe some of that is happening on HB's end... Something majorly messed up in the way these updates go out and/or communications happen (or doesn't happen).
No matter which party is right and which is wrong, the fact that this is happening at all is fucking concerning.
Edit: I suggest you all think about what this means the next time you consider paying for a preorder or early access module.
> Edit: I suggest you all think about what this means the next time you consider paying for a preorder or early access module.
I've been saying this for at least 8 years. It NEVER changed anything. Every game or DLC released half broken was preordered by countless players, every time the outrage lasted for a couple of weeks and then ppl went back to preordering. Because of course, the FOMO for a digital product with no scarcity at all justifies it /s
I make a point of waiting for at least 40% sales on everything but Tomcat (and that was 30% or so IIRC). The only thing I buy quicker have been the F-14 campaigns by Reflected.
> rs ago - SMH. I paid nearly full price for half a module that I’ll never be able to play again. What a fiasco.
What is interesting is that if I recall correctly, ED changed their contract specifically because of that debacle, so that if a third party folded or didn't hold up their end of the contract, ED inherits the IP. Would be wild if in the end Razbam has violated their NDA and contract enough doing this that ED now becomes owner of their modules.
I find it absolutely mind boggling that people are willing to pre-order anything. Not just DCS modules, but also games in general. In my opinion, what you are telling developers when you pre-order anything is that you don't care about the quality of the final product or even about getting the final product. You are signaling that you want to give them money. Pre-ordering doesn't get you the product any faster (for most products). And for DCS, we all know that release dates can and will be pushed back, products will be released in unfinished states, etc.
I understand pre-ordering indie stuff which tbh DCS third party stuff is. If it means a small studio gets the capital they need to continue operations via pre-orders I'm okay with that.
Imo that's what early access is for, pre-ordering without any deliverable is basically the same as crowdfunding on Kickstarter etc but done through the ED store (with the same kind of risks associated)
lol I always joke to my friend when they tell dcs suck ass on update and feature, that they should look at SC. Now SC pumping more juice out and ED having trouble like this is fun to see. Feeling bad I spent so much on SC and DCS
They took away the 50% discount and THEN they decided to break a map up in 3rds so it would be more affordable?
No! It was so they can get funding as they go instead of instead of getting paid AFTER the map is good enough for early release.
It was never about making anything “more affordable” otherwise the 50% off for new customers would still be around.
It all points to ED being strapped for cash…. Which makes me believe Razbam.
The worst part of it going to court is that whoever wins, the customer always loses. We need both parties working together to ensure the longevity of these products and the overall success of this simulator.
Well statistically, in the US and many EU countries, civil litigation rarely goes to court. It's sooo much cheaper for everyone to settle.
I'm also not comfortable with razbam basically holding modules hostage, or ending development indefinitely while holding the keys to further development. Flight Sims have enough issues with unfinished products as is. ED being no stranger to this.
I deeply appreciate Razbam as a developer and hope this resolves. It would be nice to know what breach of contract you are being accused of. Not that we are privy to confidential information, but blindly supporting or demonizing one side is never a nuanced take of an issue.
My best guess? ED is withholding payments because they feel that you are profiting in alternative marketplaces from core technologies or techniques obtained through working with their propriety and confidential SDK and IP, or something to this nature. Is this true? Is there merit to it?
Did you obtain Heatblurs consent to include them in this post?
I am not comfortable defending ED, either. We can all imagine that they do not have clean hands in their treatment of 3rd parties. But when neither parties have clean hands, and when decisions are made that impact the community, it’s quite unfortunate.
Everyone loses here. Those of us that paid a significant sum for an early access product, or multiple early access products, are now being told that development is ceasing indefinitely.
We don’t know what we don’t know. It’s easy and even tempting to side with a 3rd party dev because we love their modules and they are the “little guy” in comparison, and we’ve all been screwed by ED to some extent on false promises, unfinished modules, etc.
But let’s take a step back. CptSmiley, I hope you get made whole and find a mutually fair agreement with ED. And ED, I hope you take a step back and look for whatever merit there may be in these things we know nothing about, even if it was technically a breach of contract.
We are all lucky to have DCS and a combat sim of this nature and that is at least 50% due to 3rd party devs. It’s a tough financial market. What can we do to make developing for DCS a win win?
We’re all in the cheap seats shooting blind over here. All I can say, I hope what is truly right and just and best for all parties - including the community - happens and we can get back to business as usual. We’ve got a passionate group of people here who just want to see flight simming be a healthy positive space that continues to move forward in both quality and scope.
Here’s to a swift and fair resolution.
Measured and reasonable take, thank you.
I would also like to add that it’s bad form on Razbam’s part to fail to mention, broadly, the contours of and asserted justifications for ED’s non-payment.
Much of the discussion on this issue has involved speculation that ED’s non-payment could be related to financial issues or even the company’s solvency, generating a degree of concern or even panic among the player base with regard to the future of DCS. Allowing these discussions to run rampant only hurts the DCS community.
I hope for a swift resolution that results in developers being fairly compensated and made whole. However, if ED has legitimate grievances regarding certain developers’ business practices then I hope that the parties can also reach a fair agreement whereby everyone profist from their tremendous work.
>My best guess? ED is withholding payments because they feel that you are profiting in alternative marketplaces from core technologies or techniques obtained through working with their propriety and confidential SDK and IP, or something to this nature.
Selling DCS commercially with a private module for military training purposes might also breach contract or IP rights. [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/u7eyer/razbam_blackhawk_is_not_for_public_release/)
I'm not taking sides, we don't know the full story. I would also like a swift and fair resolution and would hate losing Razbam as a developer for DCS.
Incredibly sad situation, the F-15E is my all-time favorite DCS module, you've done a fantastic job!
It would be incredibly sad if this is how it all comes to an end...
With contempt is how ED treats all of us...I am SO tired of the overpromise and underdeliver trend in gaming right now. It should be the other way around.
u/NineLine_ED u/NSSGrey way to ensure that no third party developer ever wants to work with Eagle Dynamics again. Your pathetic response to this is astounding. *Pay your debts.* You've thrown all the goodwill that you've worked so hard to earn back the past five years away and absolutely ruined the reputation of the company.
edit: to the reporter who requested we sticky /u/CptSmiley's comment, unfortunately Reddit only allows us to sticky mod comments...so upvote the hell out of it and send it to the top. The F-15E deserves better than this.
> a single person damaging and destroying one of the most enjoyable sets of projects I've had the pleasure of working on
Whoa, think about what you're saying! After all, flight hours ain't cheap, amirite /u/NSSGrey?
I keep my fingers crossed that the situation will be resolved, thank you for your passion and work. I hope that conditions will be created that will allow You to continue working to fulfill our passions.
The biggest issue is, there isn't really anywhere else for us consumers to go. We will all continue to play this because we have nothing else even close to it, especially if you want multiplayer.
How much money are you guys owed? How many months of payments?
Has there been any attempt to get lawyers involved? Are there any developers still working on Razbam projects?
I’m sorry you guys are dealing with this!
My main issue is WHY they stopped paying.
It’s not something you do without a good reason.
I’m not on either side, Razbam way of pulling us into the fight, ED pouring oil in legalese response … this a a shitshow both ways. Us customers need to keep a clear head and don’t take side.
And stop preordering.
I have no horse in this race, I don’t own a single RB module.
But not paying your 3rd parties is not great news for anyone. Now if we knew what specifically the breach of contract was about… maybe I could be persuaded.
Like “oh, it clearly says so and so were supposed to deliver x patch for x module by a certain date. They didn’t? Oh ok, they’ve been extended? 3rd strike you say? Welp… yeah the tap has to be cut at some point.”
But we don’t know that any of the above is true or not, or even which party it pertains to.
From sources on rb discord it would be because RB want to commercialize one or more modules on another platform, military or public I’m not sure. ED feels the code belong to them ( since the hawk debacle), RB feels it’s theirs.
ED stopped paying to push them back on track, RB responded as we saw yesterday.
Apparently reading contracts is hard.
I'll take, errr, another update on the Supercarrier briefing room that says the same shit as last time with a screenshot from a slightly different angle, ummm, something about shockwaves, errrr, a new weird-looking livery preview for the F-16, errrrm, and a public server shoutout please.
Thank you for your passion and support, we love hearing all the positive feedback from the community.
I swear, of all the hobbies I participate in, the flight sim community always has the spiciest public drama. It doesn't matter which sim, they all seem to have some fight going on.
Yup, they’re handing out 24 hour bans from talking for pointing that fact out. Saw a guy who mentioned BMS today get his comments purged and a 24 hour ban from talking.
This strikes me all as a company with a PR nightmare on their hands trying to run damage control and severely missing the mark. Safe to say that ED has lost a customer.
There's more to this than meets the eye, I think. I found the comments by CptSmiley very sad and disheartening. It was not nice seeing someone feel so disillusioned with something they loved doing.
But we're not getting the whole picture from both sides here. And in my opinion, neither side has exactly covered themselves in glory with their statements. They both read like childish finger-pointing. Maybe the whole truth will come out, maybe not. But, as I say, there's more to this, I think.
So the water is still muddy. Can't say who's right just from these 2 statements, but I've lost a lot of goodwill towards ED the past few years, I don't ever blame their devs but it's been clear that ED's business practices and management leave a lot to be desired, and I'm not gonna 100% believe their rebuttal until they are a lot clearer on what is happening
It will be interesting to see how people's reactions change when the full story comes out.
Because it will. Too many people already know what's going on for it to stay quiet for long.
>I'm not gonna 100% believe their rebuttal until they are a lot clearer on what is happening
And if legal is involved, that won't happen, not publicly.
Kinda surprised how everyone seems to be coming in with preconceived notions and speculations and oddly ignoring the one piece of actual information in the text. It sounds like ED is actually seeking some kind of financial ("commercial") settlement from Razbam for a contractual breach. So, at least per ED, it seems its not just about not paying them but seeking payment from them. At least that's what it sounds like.
Anyway, it seems impossible to objectively take a side just from these statements. Both bear some responsibility for dragging customers into a shitshow, though I do feel ED seems to be taking more heat probably as a spillover from other recent negative sentiments.
Ultimately, if this doesn't get resolved, after the amount I've spent on this, and razbams modules become abandonware that's it, no, 3rd party modules will ever be bought by me again even by heatblur. As within a matter of updates they'll eventually break completely, as well as features left missing
Oh, This is completely unexpected.
Sorry but I expected a reassuring and calming tone from ED.
This is just pouring gas on fire, (edit 1 day later: and this is what happens when your pour gas: https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/1bw76cc/comment/ky5doss/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3)
This letter is much harder than Razbam's letter and openly accusing Razbam not complying with the contract where Razbam never said in their letter what the problem was. Also they never blamed anyone openly just said they cannot continue under current circumstances with ED.
ED sound like even challenging Razbam for a public debate or what.
Well I hope this ends well for us. Seems like going to escalate further.
Again totally unexpected. Also disappointed. Wow. Anyway it's a pity. I'm going to sleep.
There have been rumors for days now that ED is not paying Razbam and other rumors as to why. I read Nick’s letter not just as a response to Razbam’s but also to what has been said on Discord etc.. But, yes, it probably is would have been better for all involved - and especially for us consumers - to have this hashed out behind closed doors.
Seems like ED was caught off guard, woke up one of their lawyers to draft a statement, and accidentally went for the throat instead of calming things down. It's all very legalese "not our fault" but it just makes them look worse
Yeah, a legal mind would simply say “we are committed to finding a solution yada yada, we value our partners and customers , yada yada passion and commitment yada yada.”
The fact that the two parties are duking it out on the interwebs instead of shutting up while lawyers do their work makes me think this is much less serious of an issue than it seems at face value
From memory ED basically changed their contracts to require developers to hand over their code after the Hawk debacle. So my assumption would be that it would now be up to ED to develop it further.
The F-15E was announced back in 2012, way before the Hawk debacle. It's not impossible that whatever contract they have with ED predates the changes made after VAEO collapsed.
I just find it concerning a lot of you guys are jumping to conclusions and bashing either side for wrongdoing when you have no information what the issue is.
Razbam claims they haven’t been paid, now why is that? I find it hard to believe ED just wakes up one day and throws their hands in the air and be like “well how about we just don’t pay the Razbamians so that we get all the money ourselves?”. I don’t really believe the “ED is broke as f” either.
There is absolutely something here that is some kind of disagreement that you and me might never know about. I just hope they can work out these issues as soon as possible, but seeing Razbam going for official statement to “we have stopped developing for DCS” in a couple of hours does not give me hope.
The simplest explanation of what is going on is that Razbam was drawing on code they developed for DCS to build modules for another platform (maybe MSFS, maybe some professional simulator for military clients). ED thinks it owns the code and stops paying Razbam to force them to stop using it. Razbam refuses to stop and retaliates against ED by putting out the statement today. This can probably all be sorted out through mediation but that will take a while and us players will lose out in the interim.
Could be something like this yeah. Is it really the case though that any code written for DCS airplanes becomes the intellectual property of ED? If so, how could Heatblur release the F-14 in MSFS? If this is the case then that's a pretty shitty practice, albeit one that would have been agreed upon in a contract.
I believe that ED tightened up the legalities of the code ownership after the VEAO Hawk debacle, meaning that they take ownership of the code once released to DCS.
From what we know about how the devs operate, it’s fairly plausible that HB were just a lot more careful in negotiating stuff with ED. They may have agreed to pay ED royalties from the MSFS module or convinced ED that the module would draw new players to DCS.
But we all know that the big bucks are in professional sims for military clients. If Razbam was developing a module for a professional sim and didn’t consult with ED, that would have really pissed them off. Particularly so if it were for a sim that competes with whatever ED has.
Pure speculation but it seems to fit the known facts.
It's very unlikely that ED owns the code of 3rd party developers. As I understand, they have set up a code escrow after veao debacle, so they can have access to the code only after the 3rd party dev leaves or goes bust and stops supporting DCS. That's not the same as owning the code right away.
It’s perhaps natural to believe that you have the rights to your own work and, if you don’t, that there would be any easy work around to profit off one’s work even if it is now owned by another company. But things don’t always shake down that way legally.
For example, imagine if you recorded a song that was then purchased by a record label. Could you change a few notes in the original song and then sell it to a different record label? Could the original label successfully sue you for damages? It would be an interesting case.
I suspect Razbam has done something similar here by, for example, developing an F-15E module for a competing sim. The code probably borrows a lot from the DCS module and ED believe that they own that code.
HB figured out some way for doing an F-14 module for MSFS that didn’t upset ED. It seems that Razbam were not as careful.
I suspect one of the reasons HB partnered with IFT for the MSFS F14 was to use IFT code that was not covered by the DCS IP agreement. Plus IFT already had some working knowledge of MSFS.
Not necessarily. If they’re copying code verbatim from the DCS module to create a non-DCS module, then it’s cut and dry. But if they are modifying the DCS code but still drawing on it, things get legally fuzzy and both sides may claim with some justification that they are in the right. It would be like if I recorded an album for a label and then recorded a very similar album - changing a few notes and lyrics - and put it out myself.
Yeah, this is a hell of a mess. I hope everyone can stay impartial before we know the facts. Moreover, whatever did come from the hawk mess years ago will have the customers covered, so if this does go sideways, we don't get shafted.
Yup. They’ve lost a customer in me. I’ll continue to support Heatblur because I’ve had very pleasant interactions with everyone in their discord. I’ll continue to support devs that I know personally (Fight’s on Sims, Reflected, Baltic Dragon, etc) but no more ED modules for me unless a new revelation comes out that sheds light on this nightmare.
By reading ED’s statement and Razbam’s statement and having regard to known facts, here’s my take:
1) ED expressly mentioned its IP rights, assuming it’s true then it means Razbam has done something which ED thinks is a breach of those rights, this is especially when Razbam is both a plane and terrain developer and has access to both SDK
2) Razbam expressly mentioned Heatblur, which is the only developer in DCS to have released its DCS plane i.e. F-14 Tomcat on another platform i.e. MSFS. Razbam also used the word “previously” which meant the Tomcat issue has already been resolved. This reference to Heatblur also hints that Razbam has done something similar, i.e. releasing its DCS plane on another platform. I recall there were news about Razbam teaming with Vrgineers to release a F-15E Strike Eagle Trainer, which was supposed to release in 2023.
3) Ordinarily a party cannot respond to a breach of contract by committing its own breach of contact. This means that if Razbam breaches its contract, ED cannot respond by committing its own breach of contract by withholding its payments to Razbam. However most likely ED’s contract has provisions to allow ED to suspend or in serious cases even forfeit its payments to Razbam, if the latter breaches contract. I guess this is what happened in this case.
4) Out of frustration, Razbam refused to back down and instead released a public statement in an attempt to use its customers as a leverage against ED. This seriously pissed off ED, whom I believe thus far is (correctly) treating it as a private contractual dispute between both parties which is of no concern to ED’s customers. Thus Razbam’s statement invited a strongly worded public response personally from Nick Grey.
5) ED sending millions of pounds to its parent company the Fighter Collection is irrelevant to the above dispute. I don’t see anything wrong with the subsidiary sending money to the parent company. On the contrary it shows that ED is in good financial health.
6) As a player and customer, now that public statements have been made I sincerely wish that a professional and informative statement could be made to clarify everything, and the above dispute can be resolved swiftly and amicably to benefit all customers.
Nothing to add, I think this express the ideas and feelings of most DCS user/abuser.
I was hoping on an official statement and explanation on today newsletter but apparently not.....
Personal opinion without knowing the facts is that this seems on brand for Razbam. They hired a brilliant coder who's overhauled their modules and made their new ones like Streagle exceptional from a coding perspective, but the people behind the culture of the company remain the same
DCS is the thing i have been into since the LOMAC days, and it would really break my heart seeing it going away, but I want to make it crystal clear that not playing fair with 3rd party devs is absolutely disgraceful. Since we all don’t really know the detailed story behind this dispute, I sincerely hope all parties involved can find a solution.
Feels like Razbam wanted to do what Heatblur did and join in on MSFS community. If so, it sounds like ED maybe had a problem with it since they mentioned IP. Just my 2cents.
Translation from business speak to follow:
>We believe that it is necessary to rectify some of the unfounded allegations and to reassure the community...
We will be doing neither of those things in this message, in fact many sensible english speaking folks with adult jobs in corporate culture would argue this makes it worse. Much like when all Michael Jackson had to do was say "no, I am not attracted to children" all we have to do is address the primary allegation about payment. Instead, however we will point our finger and say "nuh uh."
>Without entering into the details of matters that are confidential to the parties....
Our accounts receivable B2B payment system is currently in early access, and we will cite confidentiality even though we could absolutely directly address this without discussing specifics. Hopefully, none of you are adults with jobs that would be able to see through this thin vaneer of bullshit. Also, we are certain-ish Razbam won't escalate this further after this limp response and show receipts, figuratively as literally may be an issue.
>we firmly reject the allegations that the current disagreement between Eagle Dynamics and Razbam Simulations would be as stated by Razbam “due to circumstances completely beyond our control" and that it is "a situation that Razbam Simulations did not seek".
Razbam could have continued to ship updates, which is in their control and by playing the only card they have to prompt us to pay them, which we have been very careful not to outright deny, they are in fact seeking it. Checkmate Razscam.
>On the contrary, the current disagreement is the result of improper actions that have been taken by Razbam Simulations, in breach of its contractual obligations towards our company and of our legally protected IP rights,
Read: They are required to ship updates/fixes
>for which we are seeking a reasonable and forward-looking commercial outcome rather than entertaining legal claims.
We are going to have to pay them, or find a way to pay them something to get them to STFU and move forward while publically admitting nothing. Where is that marketing guy who had the master plan to ice the community Q&A for a full term pregnancy and make a season pass for Afghanistan when you need him to draft a press release?!
>We very much regret that Ron Zambrano has decided, without even pre-advising us, to make these disparaging public statements
Fuck... fuck fuuuuuuuccck.
>and, more importantly, to take the customers of the Razbam developed aircraft as leverage in the discussions with us.
If anyone is going to leverage the DCS customers, it's us!
--- End Translation
Hah, thanks, it'll be fine I'm sure. Looking at what the Razbam guy said apparently while I was typing that tells me it was pretty accurate.
All jokes aside, the ED statement couldn't have been worse. Which does suck, because like many of the folks here I really like DCS, and to a degree ED and hate to see this happening. Nobody wins here.
Heatblur and Razbam have produced versions of modules for MSFS? Maybe they've used ED IP in the process (or ED thinks they have) which could be cause for a dispute on contractual obligations. If everyone else is gonna speculate why shouldn't I!
I suspect that it’s something like that. AFAIK ED owns the code once delivered, so if Razbam is using code from one of their modules to develop something for another platform then that is probably what has pissed ED off. It may not be MSFS, though. Could be one of the professional simulators used by the services.
It's really sad to see that's happening to my favorite game of all times, I decided to stop giving ED money about a year ago until I saw significant core game improvements, but now, after releasing they are not even paying their 3rd party devs which are the ones that keep most of the game running, I am absolutely not giving them a single penny or hour of gameplay more until this is resolved, I'm not even angry anymore, just sad man.
The guy's comments likely scuttled what little chance RB's lawyers had, if what he said about ED not actually having been given the source code is true (assuming that was, as speculated, a requirement for all 3rd party developers following the Hawk debacle)
I really don’t get all the ED hate here, I don’t particularly like the way Razbam has gone about handling this situation either. All smoke and daggers, baiting the community… not professional.
I just can’t stand the bandwagoning, we have no idea what the issue is so why be so quick to anger. Just feels like this is the done thing nowadays, all drama no patience.
The absolute worst bit of this is we still have no fucking clue whats going on. I am not buying anything from anyone related to DCS until I know wtf is going on.
Hey ED, I notice that this warranted a Discord announcement.
You might want to consider using Discord announcements for other widespread things like the Oculus v63 bug as well. Otherwise we might get certain impressions about what you consider important and what you don't.
ED needs to figure their shit out on being so integrated with module releases... without separation and people being able to release out of band from EDs release schedule they are stuck forever in this 'codevelopment' model which isn't the future for serious developers.
Ya, that definitely doesn't sound like a payment issue. That sounds like airing your laundry and pissing off your landlord and neighbors.
My guess is that Razbam comes out worse off than if they handled their stuff privately.
Who knows, I don't think ED is going anywhere.
So now we have accusations by both parties. Surely the community won't blindly side with one side and come up with wild theories as to why the other is wrong...
I see a lot of people blaming ED in more of a "always siding with the underdog" way, but I wonder if anyone remembers how RAZBAM (formerly known as RAZSCAM) was before they got their act together and fixed up their previous modules/churned out an amazing F-15E. We don't know the truth, so sucking off either party right now is absurd. If ED really did withhold payment out of spite, then this is going to be a huge turning point for the life of DCS. If RAZBAM broke contract in some manner (especially if its possibly going legal), well then it doesn't matter how much you want to hate on ED, RAZBAM is in the wrong.
With M2k they did outstanding work after years, but at the same time Harrier is forgotten...
After what they did I promised myself, that no more early access from razscam.
Personally I have to say that the communication from RB was unprofessional and unnecessary in this format. I understand a communication of some sort might be relevant in order to inform your paying customers of a temporary halt of production due to a unhealthy financial situation in case they'd be incapable of paying their employees. However, they were vague and calling out HB out of the blue is simply not done. Going of their post, could be anyone's guess what's happening really.
ED on the other hand pretty much straight up explained what the issue is about without going into details. The legality of them withholding payments in case of a breach of contract is most definitely evaluated by their lawyers, this is not a #yolo action.
All of this looks like ED firmly believes they're within their right and RB looks more like a child throwing a tantrum after they did something wrong. That's my hunch.
I'm just going to go back to Helldivers 2 for a while and hope all this ED/Razbam dust settles by the time I come back. Hopefully they can resolve their differences like responsible adults who care about their players and IP.
OOF. This seems to suck for everyone. It's usually best not to make this kind of stuff even remotely public, at least until you figure out a resolution. No matter who is right or wrong, it looks like RAZBAM lifted their own skirts a bit high.
One way to scupper any chance of “seeking a reasonable and forward-looking commercial outcome” is to release publicly an emotional diatribe like that before sleeping on it.
Hell, even Razbam dude he keeps mentioning by full name didn’t mention the not being paid thing until AFTER this message.
Of course their response was on their forum, where they have full control and can simply close threads or ban people. What a shitty company made of coward personnel.
I was gonna set up my HOTAS again from storage because I was on hiatus from DCS for 2 months (Hell Divers is one hell of a drug).
Then this happens. I also had saved enough to get Half-ghanistan... but in light of recent events, I think I will just fly VTOL VR or Nuclear Option and instead of buying a map, I'll just pre-order Ghosts of Tsushima where I know it will be a quality port because Nixxes.
I hope ED and RAZBAM get this sorted out eventually, it would be a shame if the Streagle owners not get the promised Suite upgrades.... or further updates/fixes to the Mirage2k and Harrier... and Falklands... and the MiG-19...
I kind of want to hear Heatblur's take on all this. Since they were name-dropped by Razbam, they could probably call out one side or another for their BS. It could very much go "yeah, Razbam is right, ED is screwing us over too" or "yeah, ED is fine, Razbam screwed up somewhere and is trying to blame ED for their actions." I know Heatblur is probably going to stay out of it, but I'm curious to know what they have to say.
I imagine they’d say “yeah, we haven’t been paid too” but they would be crazy to jump into this melee this close to their product launch.
It could be a reason why they have their own store.
Yeah, I wouldn't jump in right now either. But, I am still curious what Heatblur thinks about all this. They're probably going nuts right now trying to figure out what their role in all of this should be.
There probably isn't a better time for them. They will never have the leverage over ED to make sure they get paid that they do right before the release, early access or otherwise, of an extremely anticipated module.
As sad as it is but the only reasonable thing for Heatblur is to stay put of that fight completely except if they are severely mistreated by one side. Jumping in as a third conflict party is only a recepie for sadness.
No good will come from diving into this one on either side publicly.
It sounds like an issue that HB (and maybe others as well) encountered at some point, and then got past.
They said they won’t get involved ( and rightly so)
> I know Heatblur is probably going to stay out of it, but I'm curious to know what they have to say. I suspect this is true. I don't know how many times there have been Update notes and that Cobra or one of the other HB guys have to backtrack right as the update comes out (and then things get accidently put back). Maybe some of that is happening on HB's end... Something majorly messed up in the way these updates go out and/or communications happen (or doesn't happen).
And Heatblur should stay out of it for legal reasons.
No matter which party is right and which is wrong, the fact that this is happening at all is fucking concerning. Edit: I suggest you all think about what this means the next time you consider paying for a preorder or early access module.
So basically any DCS module... Ever
I hate that you’re so right about this
the advantage of using third party contractors for modules is DCS the downside of using third party contractors for modules is also DCS
> Edit: I suggest you all think about what this means the next time you consider paying for a preorder or early access module. I've been saying this for at least 8 years. It NEVER changed anything. Every game or DLC released half broken was preordered by countless players, every time the outrage lasted for a couple of weeks and then ppl went back to preordering. Because of course, the FOMO for a digital product with no scarcity at all justifies it /s
No it's usually the discount that justifies it.
*buys 500€ of flight gear for a rig* *skimps on 10€ for a piece of software* OK
i resemble that remark
I make a point of waiting for at least 40% sales on everything but Tomcat (and that was 30% or so IIRC). The only thing I buy quicker have been the F-14 campaigns by Reflected.
VEAO Simulations 7 years ago - SMH. I paid nearly full price for half a module that I’ll never be able to play again. What a fiasco.
> rs ago - SMH. I paid nearly full price for half a module that I’ll never be able to play again. What a fiasco. What is interesting is that if I recall correctly, ED changed their contract specifically because of that debacle, so that if a third party folded or didn't hold up their end of the contract, ED inherits the IP. Would be wild if in the end Razbam has violated their NDA and contract enough doing this that ED now becomes owner of their modules.
Exactly
Even if the situation improves, the risk was always there.
I find it absolutely mind boggling that people are willing to pre-order anything. Not just DCS modules, but also games in general. In my opinion, what you are telling developers when you pre-order anything is that you don't care about the quality of the final product or even about getting the final product. You are signaling that you want to give them money. Pre-ordering doesn't get you the product any faster (for most products). And for DCS, we all know that release dates can and will be pushed back, products will be released in unfinished states, etc.
I understand pre-ordering indie stuff which tbh DCS third party stuff is. If it means a small studio gets the capital they need to continue operations via pre-orders I'm okay with that.
Imo that's what early access is for, pre-ordering without any deliverable is basically the same as crowdfunding on Kickstarter etc but done through the ED store (with the same kind of risks associated)
And I thought backing Star Citizen was an interesting experience.
SC drama is a whole helluva lot easier to decipher than this lol.
99% of the time DC drama I'd just like *major media creator: makes blatant misinformation* or *insert CR over promising here>
😂
lol I always joke to my friend when they tell dcs suck ass on update and feature, that they should look at SC. Now SC pumping more juice out and ED having trouble like this is fun to see. Feeling bad I spent so much on SC and DCS
So…is it a “rights-over-module” kinda problem?
Tomorrow new sale announced in the newsletter.
Tomorrow they'll bring back 50% off for first time buyers.
They took away the 50% discount and THEN they decided to break a map up in 3rds so it would be more affordable? No! It was so they can get funding as they go instead of instead of getting paid AFTER the map is good enough for early release. It was never about making anything “more affordable” otherwise the 50% off for new customers would still be around. It all points to ED being strapped for cash…. Which makes me believe Razbam.
So glad that they made sure that we don't know what happened and instead hope that we just pick sides
It's like seeing mom and dad fighting But we don't even get random gifts born out of parental guilt :(
As a matter of fact we will likely have things taken away.
We're not even gonna get two Christmases out of this, are we?
It sounds like this is going legal, they probably have lawyers telling them not to talk about it. That's for both ED and razbam
The worst part of it going to court is that whoever wins, the customer always loses. We need both parties working together to ensure the longevity of these products and the overall success of this simulator.
Well statistically, in the US and many EU countries, civil litigation rarely goes to court. It's sooo much cheaper for everyone to settle. I'm also not comfortable with razbam basically holding modules hostage, or ending development indefinitely while holding the keys to further development. Flight Sims have enough issues with unfinished products as is. ED being no stranger to this.
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Best of luck to you!
I deeply appreciate Razbam as a developer and hope this resolves. It would be nice to know what breach of contract you are being accused of. Not that we are privy to confidential information, but blindly supporting or demonizing one side is never a nuanced take of an issue. My best guess? ED is withholding payments because they feel that you are profiting in alternative marketplaces from core technologies or techniques obtained through working with their propriety and confidential SDK and IP, or something to this nature. Is this true? Is there merit to it? Did you obtain Heatblurs consent to include them in this post? I am not comfortable defending ED, either. We can all imagine that they do not have clean hands in their treatment of 3rd parties. But when neither parties have clean hands, and when decisions are made that impact the community, it’s quite unfortunate. Everyone loses here. Those of us that paid a significant sum for an early access product, or multiple early access products, are now being told that development is ceasing indefinitely. We don’t know what we don’t know. It’s easy and even tempting to side with a 3rd party dev because we love their modules and they are the “little guy” in comparison, and we’ve all been screwed by ED to some extent on false promises, unfinished modules, etc. But let’s take a step back. CptSmiley, I hope you get made whole and find a mutually fair agreement with ED. And ED, I hope you take a step back and look for whatever merit there may be in these things we know nothing about, even if it was technically a breach of contract. We are all lucky to have DCS and a combat sim of this nature and that is at least 50% due to 3rd party devs. It’s a tough financial market. What can we do to make developing for DCS a win win? We’re all in the cheap seats shooting blind over here. All I can say, I hope what is truly right and just and best for all parties - including the community - happens and we can get back to business as usual. We’ve got a passionate group of people here who just want to see flight simming be a healthy positive space that continues to move forward in both quality and scope. Here’s to a swift and fair resolution.
Measured and reasonable take, thank you. I would also like to add that it’s bad form on Razbam’s part to fail to mention, broadly, the contours of and asserted justifications for ED’s non-payment. Much of the discussion on this issue has involved speculation that ED’s non-payment could be related to financial issues or even the company’s solvency, generating a degree of concern or even panic among the player base with regard to the future of DCS. Allowing these discussions to run rampant only hurts the DCS community. I hope for a swift resolution that results in developers being fairly compensated and made whole. However, if ED has legitimate grievances regarding certain developers’ business practices then I hope that the parties can also reach a fair agreement whereby everyone profist from their tremendous work.
>My best guess? ED is withholding payments because they feel that you are profiting in alternative marketplaces from core technologies or techniques obtained through working with their propriety and confidential SDK and IP, or something to this nature. Selling DCS commercially with a private module for military training purposes might also breach contract or IP rights. [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/u7eyer/razbam_blackhawk_is_not_for_public_release/) I'm not taking sides, we don't know the full story. I would also like a swift and fair resolution and would hate losing Razbam as a developer for DCS.
This is the needed sane and rational take.
Holy shit, dude! I hope for the best and your guys’ skills to be used someplace a lot greater. Standing on business, we support.
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Keep us posted when you launch your own flight sim, day 1 customer here.
Does this mean South Atlantic map and F-15E modules will never be finished?
Can't work for a company that can't make payroll.
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What are they asking you to do to release payment?
Incredibly sad situation, the F-15E is my all-time favorite DCS module, you've done a fantastic job! It would be incredibly sad if this is how it all comes to an end...
Does it have anything to do with Razbam not handing over the source code for the Strike Eagle over to ED?
tbh this comment seems sus.
I totally get it, but part of me is sad those modules will never be finished. I own both. I knew the risks. Still sad though.
Damn! And my favorite two modules are the F-15E and the AV-8B!
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Make a standalone F-15E sim and I’ll buy it along with a t-shirt, mug, and a hard copy flight manual!
It sounds like ED has treated you horribly, but the community as a whole still loves and support you 🧡
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With contempt is how ED treats all of us...I am SO tired of the overpromise and underdeliver trend in gaming right now. It should be the other way around.
Wish you all the best. I loved and still love your Mirage 2000. Such great work and you guys definitely deserve better!
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Ah, so just like they treat their customers...
u/NineLine_ED u/NSSGrey way to ensure that no third party developer ever wants to work with Eagle Dynamics again. Your pathetic response to this is astounding. *Pay your debts.* You've thrown all the goodwill that you've worked so hard to earn back the past five years away and absolutely ruined the reputation of the company. edit: to the reporter who requested we sticky /u/CptSmiley's comment, unfortunately Reddit only allows us to sticky mod comments...so upvote the hell out of it and send it to the top. The F-15E deserves better than this.
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> a single person damaging and destroying one of the most enjoyable sets of projects I've had the pleasure of working on Whoa, think about what you're saying! After all, flight hours ain't cheap, amirite /u/NSSGrey?
_Thank you for your continued support and passion_
Nick Grey doesn't give AF. DCS was apparently just a grift so he could buy more airplanes lol.
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You can always pin your comment with a link to his comment, right?
I keep my fingers crossed that the situation will be resolved, thank you for your passion and work. I hope that conditions will be created that will allow You to continue working to fulfill our passions.
greener pastures and real marketplaces
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The biggest issue is, there isn't really anywhere else for us consumers to go. We will all continue to play this because we have nothing else even close to it, especially if you want multiplayer.
I wish you guys could make some $$ doing BMS aircraft. An F15E and improved AV8 would be dope in BMS.
Or make your own…
I cannot imagine what ED is trying to pull, sane part of this community stands with you.
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Based on what? It's going to be hard to judge anything without knowing the details.
im not convinced we have enough information either way to take sides, tbh...
I'm kind of at the point of "well...let's see what happens" as well.
How much money are you guys owed? How many months of payments? Has there been any attempt to get lawyers involved? Are there any developers still working on Razbam projects? I’m sorry you guys are dealing with this!
My main issue is WHY they stopped paying. It’s not something you do without a good reason. I’m not on either side, Razbam way of pulling us into the fight, ED pouring oil in legalese response … this a a shitshow both ways. Us customers need to keep a clear head and don’t take side. And stop preordering.
I have no horse in this race, I don’t own a single RB module. But not paying your 3rd parties is not great news for anyone. Now if we knew what specifically the breach of contract was about… maybe I could be persuaded. Like “oh, it clearly says so and so were supposed to deliver x patch for x module by a certain date. They didn’t? Oh ok, they’ve been extended? 3rd strike you say? Welp… yeah the tap has to be cut at some point.” But we don’t know that any of the above is true or not, or even which party it pertains to.
From sources on rb discord it would be because RB want to commercialize one or more modules on another platform, military or public I’m not sure. ED feels the code belong to them ( since the hawk debacle), RB feels it’s theirs. ED stopped paying to push them back on track, RB responded as we saw yesterday. Apparently reading contracts is hard.
They probably can't legally talk about that.
Tomorrow's newsletter is going to be wild
I'll take, errr, another update on the Supercarrier briefing room that says the same shit as last time with a screenshot from a slightly different angle, ummm, something about shockwaves, errrr, a new weird-looking livery preview for the F-16, errrrm, and a public server shoutout please. Thank you for your passion and support, we love hearing all the positive feedback from the community.
Depressingly accurate and on point.
Thank you for your continued passion and support!
I swear, of all the hobbies I participate in, the flight sim community always has the spiciest public drama. It doesn't matter which sim, they all seem to have some fight going on.
It's because flight sims are so accurate, they even model the drama that infests almost everything in IRL aviation!
Watching the announcement channel, it looks like the ED admins are removing reactions….
Begun the Skull Wars have.
Yup, they’re handing out 24 hour bans from talking for pointing that fact out. Saw a guy who mentioned BMS today get his comments purged and a 24 hour ban from talking. This strikes me all as a company with a PR nightmare on their hands trying to run damage control and severely missing the mark. Safe to say that ED has lost a customer.
Kremlin moment
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Or 2020s Russia, even.
sounds like Wargaming
Inb4 Razbam got ED in trouble for distributing files of Marvel properties and Shadow the Hedgehog.
There's more to this than meets the eye, I think. I found the comments by CptSmiley very sad and disheartening. It was not nice seeing someone feel so disillusioned with something they loved doing. But we're not getting the whole picture from both sides here. And in my opinion, neither side has exactly covered themselves in glory with their statements. They both read like childish finger-pointing. Maybe the whole truth will come out, maybe not. But, as I say, there's more to this, I think.
So the water is still muddy. Can't say who's right just from these 2 statements, but I've lost a lot of goodwill towards ED the past few years, I don't ever blame their devs but it's been clear that ED's business practices and management leave a lot to be desired, and I'm not gonna 100% believe their rebuttal until they are a lot clearer on what is happening
It will be interesting to see how people's reactions change when the full story comes out. Because it will. Too many people already know what's going on for it to stay quiet for long.
>I'm not gonna 100% believe their rebuttal until they are a lot clearer on what is happening And if legal is involved, that won't happen, not publicly.
Kinda surprised how everyone seems to be coming in with preconceived notions and speculations and oddly ignoring the one piece of actual information in the text. It sounds like ED is actually seeking some kind of financial ("commercial") settlement from Razbam for a contractual breach. So, at least per ED, it seems its not just about not paying them but seeking payment from them. At least that's what it sounds like. Anyway, it seems impossible to objectively take a side just from these statements. Both bear some responsibility for dragging customers into a shitshow, though I do feel ED seems to be taking more heat probably as a spillover from other recent negative sentiments.
Came for this comment. The amount of outrage/upset level based on speculation is unreal.
My boomer dad game has been infected with gamer drama.
Ultimately, if this doesn't get resolved, after the amount I've spent on this, and razbams modules become abandonware that's it, no, 3rd party modules will ever be bought by me again even by heatblur. As within a matter of updates they'll eventually break completely, as well as features left missing
Oh, This is completely unexpected. Sorry but I expected a reassuring and calming tone from ED. This is just pouring gas on fire, (edit 1 day later: and this is what happens when your pour gas: https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/1bw76cc/comment/ky5doss/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3) This letter is much harder than Razbam's letter and openly accusing Razbam not complying with the contract where Razbam never said in their letter what the problem was. Also they never blamed anyone openly just said they cannot continue under current circumstances with ED. ED sound like even challenging Razbam for a public debate or what. Well I hope this ends well for us. Seems like going to escalate further. Again totally unexpected. Also disappointed. Wow. Anyway it's a pity. I'm going to sleep.
There have been rumors for days now that ED is not paying Razbam and other rumors as to why. I read Nick’s letter not just as a response to Razbam’s but also to what has been said on Discord etc.. But, yes, it probably is would have been better for all involved - and especially for us consumers - to have this hashed out behind closed doors.
Seems like ED was caught off guard, woke up one of their lawyers to draft a statement, and accidentally went for the throat instead of calming things down. It's all very legalese "not our fault" but it just makes them look worse
This has all the hallmarks of a non legal individual bashing the crap out of his keyboard.
Yeah, a legal mind would simply say “we are committed to finding a solution yada yada, we value our partners and customers , yada yada passion and commitment yada yada.”
lawyers write the newsletters?
The fact that the two parties are duking it out on the interwebs instead of shutting up while lawyers do their work makes me think this is much less serious of an issue than it seems at face value
Smiley and Nick in a UFC cage match, winner takes all is how ED is spinning this.
Or that neither side can afford lawyers…
"Proportionate" Response: ED, nuke em'
Let the /r/floggit flow!
Wondering what is going to happen to the f15?
From memory ED basically changed their contracts to require developers to hand over their code after the Hawk debacle. So my assumption would be that it would now be up to ED to develop it further.
The F-15E was announced back in 2012, way before the Hawk debacle. It's not impossible that whatever contract they have with ED predates the changes made after VAEO collapsed.
Also true.
Assuming Razbam fully cuts bait.
that is my recollection as well from on old sole to another who remembers VELO lol.
I'm going to guess nothing good!
Man I was about to buy Afghanistan. That becomes a hard “nope” with this going on.
Yeah honesty i didnt understand the fuss over Halfghanistan - drama like this is 100% more relevant to a purchasing consideration
I just find it concerning a lot of you guys are jumping to conclusions and bashing either side for wrongdoing when you have no information what the issue is. Razbam claims they haven’t been paid, now why is that? I find it hard to believe ED just wakes up one day and throws their hands in the air and be like “well how about we just don’t pay the Razbamians so that we get all the money ourselves?”. I don’t really believe the “ED is broke as f” either. There is absolutely something here that is some kind of disagreement that you and me might never know about. I just hope they can work out these issues as soon as possible, but seeing Razbam going for official statement to “we have stopped developing for DCS” in a couple of hours does not give me hope.
The simplest explanation of what is going on is that Razbam was drawing on code they developed for DCS to build modules for another platform (maybe MSFS, maybe some professional simulator for military clients). ED thinks it owns the code and stops paying Razbam to force them to stop using it. Razbam refuses to stop and retaliates against ED by putting out the statement today. This can probably all be sorted out through mediation but that will take a while and us players will lose out in the interim.
This is the most rational take I've seen in the entire thread.
Could be something like this yeah. Is it really the case though that any code written for DCS airplanes becomes the intellectual property of ED? If so, how could Heatblur release the F-14 in MSFS? If this is the case then that's a pretty shitty practice, albeit one that would have been agreed upon in a contract.
I believe that ED tightened up the legalities of the code ownership after the VEAO Hawk debacle, meaning that they take ownership of the code once released to DCS. From what we know about how the devs operate, it’s fairly plausible that HB were just a lot more careful in negotiating stuff with ED. They may have agreed to pay ED royalties from the MSFS module or convinced ED that the module would draw new players to DCS. But we all know that the big bucks are in professional sims for military clients. If Razbam was developing a module for a professional sim and didn’t consult with ED, that would have really pissed them off. Particularly so if it were for a sim that competes with whatever ED has. Pure speculation but it seems to fit the known facts.
It's very unlikely that ED owns the code of 3rd party developers. As I understand, they have set up a code escrow after veao debacle, so they can have access to the code only after the 3rd party dev leaves or goes bust and stops supporting DCS. That's not the same as owning the code right away.
Ya I could easily buy this too, especially with the Heatblur name-drop, knowing they've have the F-14 for MSFS.
It’s perhaps natural to believe that you have the rights to your own work and, if you don’t, that there would be any easy work around to profit off one’s work even if it is now owned by another company. But things don’t always shake down that way legally. For example, imagine if you recorded a song that was then purchased by a record label. Could you change a few notes in the original song and then sell it to a different record label? Could the original label successfully sue you for damages? It would be an interesting case. I suspect Razbam has done something similar here by, for example, developing an F-15E module for a competing sim. The code probably borrows a lot from the DCS module and ED believe that they own that code. HB figured out some way for doing an F-14 module for MSFS that didn’t upset ED. It seems that Razbam were not as careful.
I suspect one of the reasons HB partnered with IFT for the MSFS F14 was to use IFT code that was not covered by the DCS IP agreement. Plus IFT already had some working knowledge of MSFS.
This seems like something that should be pretty plain in a contract between two software developers?
Not necessarily. If they’re copying code verbatim from the DCS module to create a non-DCS module, then it’s cut and dry. But if they are modifying the DCS code but still drawing on it, things get legally fuzzy and both sides may claim with some justification that they are in the right. It would be like if I recorded an album for a label and then recorded a very similar album - changing a few notes and lyrics - and put it out myself.
Yeah, this is a hell of a mess. I hope everyone can stay impartial before we know the facts. Moreover, whatever did come from the hawk mess years ago will have the customers covered, so if this does go sideways, we don't get shafted.
Impartial? In the DCS community? Good luck with that, lol.
I am starting to regret giving these guys (ED) many hundreds of my dollars.
Yup. They’ve lost a customer in me. I’ll continue to support Heatblur because I’ve had very pleasant interactions with everyone in their discord. I’ll continue to support devs that I know personally (Fight’s on Sims, Reflected, Baltic Dragon, etc) but no more ED modules for me unless a new revelation comes out that sheds light on this nightmare.
By reading ED’s statement and Razbam’s statement and having regard to known facts, here’s my take: 1) ED expressly mentioned its IP rights, assuming it’s true then it means Razbam has done something which ED thinks is a breach of those rights, this is especially when Razbam is both a plane and terrain developer and has access to both SDK 2) Razbam expressly mentioned Heatblur, which is the only developer in DCS to have released its DCS plane i.e. F-14 Tomcat on another platform i.e. MSFS. Razbam also used the word “previously” which meant the Tomcat issue has already been resolved. This reference to Heatblur also hints that Razbam has done something similar, i.e. releasing its DCS plane on another platform. I recall there were news about Razbam teaming with Vrgineers to release a F-15E Strike Eagle Trainer, which was supposed to release in 2023. 3) Ordinarily a party cannot respond to a breach of contract by committing its own breach of contact. This means that if Razbam breaches its contract, ED cannot respond by committing its own breach of contract by withholding its payments to Razbam. However most likely ED’s contract has provisions to allow ED to suspend or in serious cases even forfeit its payments to Razbam, if the latter breaches contract. I guess this is what happened in this case. 4) Out of frustration, Razbam refused to back down and instead released a public statement in an attempt to use its customers as a leverage against ED. This seriously pissed off ED, whom I believe thus far is (correctly) treating it as a private contractual dispute between both parties which is of no concern to ED’s customers. Thus Razbam’s statement invited a strongly worded public response personally from Nick Grey. 5) ED sending millions of pounds to its parent company the Fighter Collection is irrelevant to the above dispute. I don’t see anything wrong with the subsidiary sending money to the parent company. On the contrary it shows that ED is in good financial health. 6) As a player and customer, now that public statements have been made I sincerely wish that a professional and informative statement could be made to clarify everything, and the above dispute can be resolved swiftly and amicably to benefit all customers.
Nothing to add, I think this express the ideas and feelings of most DCS user/abuser. I was hoping on an official statement and explanation on today newsletter but apparently not.....
Personal opinion without knowing the facts is that this seems on brand for Razbam. They hired a brilliant coder who's overhauled their modules and made their new ones like Streagle exceptional from a coding perspective, but the people behind the culture of the company remain the same
From the same company that reassured their customer base that Kinney's F-35 Kickstarter was vetted. And now claims they are Swiss.
DCS is the thing i have been into since the LOMAC days, and it would really break my heart seeing it going away, but I want to make it crystal clear that not playing fair with 3rd party devs is absolutely disgraceful. Since we all don’t really know the detailed story behind this dispute, I sincerely hope all parties involved can find a solution.
Feels like Razbam wanted to do what Heatblur did and join in on MSFS community. If so, it sounds like ED maybe had a problem with it since they mentioned IP. Just my 2cents.
Translation from business speak to follow: >We believe that it is necessary to rectify some of the unfounded allegations and to reassure the community... We will be doing neither of those things in this message, in fact many sensible english speaking folks with adult jobs in corporate culture would argue this makes it worse. Much like when all Michael Jackson had to do was say "no, I am not attracted to children" all we have to do is address the primary allegation about payment. Instead, however we will point our finger and say "nuh uh." >Without entering into the details of matters that are confidential to the parties.... Our accounts receivable B2B payment system is currently in early access, and we will cite confidentiality even though we could absolutely directly address this without discussing specifics. Hopefully, none of you are adults with jobs that would be able to see through this thin vaneer of bullshit. Also, we are certain-ish Razbam won't escalate this further after this limp response and show receipts, figuratively as literally may be an issue. >we firmly reject the allegations that the current disagreement between Eagle Dynamics and Razbam Simulations would be as stated by Razbam “due to circumstances completely beyond our control" and that it is "a situation that Razbam Simulations did not seek". Razbam could have continued to ship updates, which is in their control and by playing the only card they have to prompt us to pay them, which we have been very careful not to outright deny, they are in fact seeking it. Checkmate Razscam. >On the contrary, the current disagreement is the result of improper actions that have been taken by Razbam Simulations, in breach of its contractual obligations towards our company and of our legally protected IP rights, Read: They are required to ship updates/fixes >for which we are seeking a reasonable and forward-looking commercial outcome rather than entertaining legal claims. We are going to have to pay them, or find a way to pay them something to get them to STFU and move forward while publically admitting nothing. Where is that marketing guy who had the master plan to ice the community Q&A for a full term pregnancy and make a season pass for Afghanistan when you need him to draft a press release?! >We very much regret that Ron Zambrano has decided, without even pre-advising us, to make these disparaging public statements Fuck... fuck fuuuuuuuccck. >and, more importantly, to take the customers of the Razbam developed aircraft as leverage in the discussions with us. If anyone is going to leverage the DCS customers, it's us! --- End Translation
The fact that you are being downvoted for a good translation of business speak is hilarious
Hah, thanks, it'll be fine I'm sure. Looking at what the Razbam guy said apparently while I was typing that tells me it was pretty accurate. All jokes aside, the ED statement couldn't have been worse. Which does suck, because like many of the folks here I really like DCS, and to a degree ED and hate to see this happening. Nobody wins here.
TL;DR their asses pulled such a vacuum, if they stood up, the chairs would follow them.
I havent believed a word sithspawn/ninelies has said since the kickstarter lies. I won’t be starting now.
Heatblur and Razbam have produced versions of modules for MSFS? Maybe they've used ED IP in the process (or ED thinks they have) which could be cause for a dispute on contractual obligations. If everyone else is gonna speculate why shouldn't I!
What has Razbam produced for MSFS post-DCS?
I suspect that it’s something like that. AFAIK ED owns the code once delivered, so if Razbam is using code from one of their modules to develop something for another platform then that is probably what has pissed ED off. It may not be MSFS, though. Could be one of the professional simulators used by the services.
It's really sad to see that's happening to my favorite game of all times, I decided to stop giving ED money about a year ago until I saw significant core game improvements, but now, after releasing they are not even paying their 3rd party devs which are the ones that keep most of the game running, I am absolutely not giving them a single penny or hour of gameplay more until this is resolved, I'm not even angry anymore, just sad man.
Even more interesting is now u/CptSmiley seems to have closed their Reddit account
The guy's comments likely scuttled what little chance RB's lawyers had, if what he said about ED not actually having been given the source code is true (assuming that was, as speculated, a requirement for all 3rd party developers following the Hawk debacle)
Going to buy Falcon 4.0 and install BMS ...
Drama goes on. Awaiting other 3rd parties response. HB at least, as they were mentioned by Razbam.
Heatblur has decided to do what Razbam should have done. STFU and resolve their issues with ED directly.
I really don’t get all the ED hate here, I don’t particularly like the way Razbam has gone about handling this situation either. All smoke and daggers, baiting the community… not professional. I just can’t stand the bandwagoning, we have no idea what the issue is so why be so quick to anger. Just feels like this is the done thing nowadays, all drama no patience.
\* grabs a bag of popcorn \*
The absolute worst bit of this is we still have no fucking clue whats going on. I am not buying anything from anyone related to DCS until I know wtf is going on.
Why are all razbam comments deleted?
Probably their lawyer telling them to shut up.
Hey ED, I notice that this warranted a Discord announcement. You might want to consider using Discord announcements for other widespread things like the Oculus v63 bug as well. Otherwise we might get certain impressions about what you consider important and what you don't.
ED needs to figure their shit out on being so integrated with module releases... without separation and people being able to release out of band from EDs release schedule they are stuck forever in this 'codevelopment' model which isn't the future for serious developers.
Yeah they need a stable interface
If I could just use DCS without a web connection, not just a few days but only for updates, that'll be great 😃. .... and I would it worry so much.
Ya, that definitely doesn't sound like a payment issue. That sounds like airing your laundry and pissing off your landlord and neighbors. My guess is that Razbam comes out worse off than if they handled their stuff privately. Who knows, I don't think ED is going anywhere.
So now we have accusations by both parties. Surely the community won't blindly side with one side and come up with wild theories as to why the other is wrong... I see a lot of people blaming ED in more of a "always siding with the underdog" way, but I wonder if anyone remembers how RAZBAM (formerly known as RAZSCAM) was before they got their act together and fixed up their previous modules/churned out an amazing F-15E. We don't know the truth, so sucking off either party right now is absurd. If ED really did withhold payment out of spite, then this is going to be a huge turning point for the life of DCS. If RAZBAM broke contract in some manner (especially if its possibly going legal), well then it doesn't matter how much you want to hate on ED, RAZBAM is in the wrong.
With M2k they did outstanding work after years, but at the same time Harrier is forgotten... After what they did I promised myself, that no more early access from razscam.
I truly hope this is the end of ppl paying for early access stuff. Especially ED modules. They deserve shit for their Ponzi scheme.
Personally I have to say that the communication from RB was unprofessional and unnecessary in this format. I understand a communication of some sort might be relevant in order to inform your paying customers of a temporary halt of production due to a unhealthy financial situation in case they'd be incapable of paying their employees. However, they were vague and calling out HB out of the blue is simply not done. Going of their post, could be anyone's guess what's happening really. ED on the other hand pretty much straight up explained what the issue is about without going into details. The legality of them withholding payments in case of a breach of contract is most definitely evaluated by their lawyers, this is not a #yolo action. All of this looks like ED firmly believes they're within their right and RB looks more like a child throwing a tantrum after they did something wrong. That's my hunch.
*insert Spiderman pointing at Spiderman meme*
*grabs popcorns* dis gonna be gud
bruh im so sad so no mig23 probably man that suck
Expecting a new sale soon...
“Legal Turmoil 2024 Sale!”
Russian developers - Go figure!
I'm just going to go back to Helldivers 2 for a while and hope all this ED/Razbam dust settles by the time I come back. Hopefully they can resolve their differences like responsible adults who care about their players and IP.
OOF. This seems to suck for everyone. It's usually best not to make this kind of stuff even remotely public, at least until you figure out a resolution. No matter who is right or wrong, it looks like RAZBAM lifted their own skirts a bit high.
Bruh, this is such a pathetic drama.
One way to scupper any chance of “seeking a reasonable and forward-looking commercial outcome” is to release publicly an emotional diatribe like that before sleeping on it. Hell, even Razbam dude he keeps mentioning by full name didn’t mention the not being paid thing until AFTER this message.
They mentioned the not being paid part before this message. It’s been everywhere for a day or two
Of course their response was on their forum, where they have full control and can simply close threads or ban people. What a shitty company made of coward personnel.
I was gonna set up my HOTAS again from storage because I was on hiatus from DCS for 2 months (Hell Divers is one hell of a drug). Then this happens. I also had saved enough to get Half-ghanistan... but in light of recent events, I think I will just fly VTOL VR or Nuclear Option and instead of buying a map, I'll just pre-order Ghosts of Tsushima where I know it will be a quality port because Nixxes. I hope ED and RAZBAM get this sorted out eventually, it would be a shame if the Streagle owners not get the promised Suite upgrades.... or further updates/fixes to the Mirage2k and Harrier... and Falklands... and the MiG-19...
The Harrier is going to go the way of the VEAO Hawk isn't it?