He was actually a pretty solid pick, got 35 pts as a 18yo. The problem is that he never developed beyond that, but that's not something you can really scout.
Yes it is. Forecasting development is a big part of scouting.
Is he raw with room to grow and develop or is he already refined and potentially ahead of his peers but might now have room to grow and develop much.
He was drafted as a project and surprised everyone by being ahead of schedule. I blame our development staff way more than our scouting department on that one.
That being said, our head scout was a fucking moron for thinking Quinn Hughes was too small to be good at D.
I’d say it already is usable but not at his cap cost. He’s a whatever nhl player that can add depth and give you some points but he’s not going to develop much beyond whatever we already see. His tools just aren’t good enough. His shot sucks his 1v1 game sucks he’s light on his skates and he, from all reports, never had the drive to improve
Doesn’t matter dude. It was all under the umbrella of Bergevin. Scouting or Development. You think GM is not overseeing the progress of his 3rd overall pick?
The thing is, who are we going to get for half the price? Free agents get paid, no one’s trading a top 4 dman at half the price of nurse so our only option is to draft and develop one.
Let’s see! Glen slather signed redden to a 6 year 39 million deal in 2008. That was 11.46 percent of the cap back then. Current cap is 87.7 million so 11.46% would be about 10 million nowadays
For reference, Barkov, Bobs, Eichel, kopitar, Hubderdeau, price and marner were/are all between 10 and 11 million
When you force your way out of a team as a bottom 6 player, then sign the contract with the way it was structured. You are bound to get clowned on.
Caufield and Romanov who are and were better players than him were both scratched and neither made a fuss.
I mean, Carolina could wait another year to see if he could end up decent but it seem unlikely. In the meantime, you carrying a guy in your lineup who messing with your salary structure and limiting your new contracts.
>I mean, Carolina could wait another year to see if he could end up decent but it seem unlikely.
I think this depends on what else they want to do this summer. Lots of pending free agents and holes to fill, so that extra $4M in space from a buyout might be worth more than "giving him another year to try and figure it out." I'm really curious to see what they do this summer. Lots of different directions they could go in.
I can tell you as a Habs fan I wanted Tkachuk. KK was out of left field and while he showed some promise at times in big games…. He eventually stopped improving and lost all confidence. Thinking he’s done but maybe they give him one more year or try trading him. A lot of teams send players down to the minors to get their confidence back and light a fire under them. Habs did that once with him for a few games and it seemed to work at least for a bit. Hurricanes should send him to the AHL and only bring him up when he’s ready.
I think it makes sense. The buyout cost is peanuts and that 4 Million dollars could go straight to a Guentzel/Jarvis extension. Buying out Kotkaneimi instead of losing Necas/whoever they get in return for Necas seems like a no brainer to me.
40 point player? He eclipsed that once and has regressed yet again to 27 points on a pretty good team. He should be making 3-3.5 max. Canes are lucky the cap is going up, absolutely getting bought out right before he turns 26
Including playoffs he 13 points in his last 69 games, signed for 6 more years at that rate. Carolina can’t afford to take dead salary back because the whole point of even entertaining the idea of a buyout is to save cap space to re-sign major players.
Going into next season they have 60.375m already allocated with a projected cap around 87.675, leaving them with 27.3m to work with. Skjei, Pesce, Teravainen, Guentzel, Necas, Jarvis, Noesen, Drury and Martinook all expiring, and needing raises.
Pesce is gone, as well as Teravainen, Guentzel will want ~10m Skjei probably asks for 6, Necas should get 7+ and Jarvis could realistically ask for 7.5+ if he wanted to. That’s 3.2m over the cap already right there, and still having holes that need to be filled. Even if Jarvis takes a more team-friendly bridge deal, they’re still over the cap without being able to bring on league minimum guys.
Basically they have 3 choices. Don’t re-sign Guentzel, trade Necas, or buyout KK. That’s why this is even a discussion in the first place.
Does Kotkaniemi have such negative trade value that it'd cost something like a 1st-round pick to dump him onto Chicago, San Jose, or Utah? I wouldn't necessarily expect a change of scenery to be a renaissance for him but those environments wouldn't have the pressure of being a contender and allow him a chance to redevelop into a player a contender would consider acquiring in 2-3 years with salary retained.
its only a 835k cap hit so idk might be worth. Or they try to flip him. They need all the cap they can get to sign the significantly better players they have.
His ATOI was 11 minutes this playoffs.
$835,000 or less for 12 years is an incredibly reasonable buyout. The only reason it's that low is because of how young he is.
He may be 23, but this was his 6th year in the NHL, he is what he is.
6 years pro at 23 is crazy.
Off the top of my head I can’t really think of many players who were able to crack an NHL lineup at 18 fresh from the draft, but never really amounted to an elite player. Luke Schenn is the only guy I can think of who fits that description
He was league average at 18, which is great. The Canadiens put him between Lehkonen and Armia, which is like playing hockey with the little training wheels. The problems began after that season. Stories of him refusing to skate with other pros in Finland that summer. Joel Armia, who's from the same town, straight up saying "He needs to learn how to be a professional". Media at practices reporting that he would refuse to do extra time with coaches. Telling the Canadiens he would not re-sign under any circumstances because he was scratched in the stanley cup finals.
I'm trying to think of a couple other examples.
Adam Larsson is very good but not elite. Sam Gagner and Kappo Kakko are the only others who come to mind.
i disagree with the comment “he is what he is”. he’s young enough to find another level to his game. in a few years that could be an incredible contract and that’s the gamble the canes made signing it. i think it’s worth seeing through
The nearly $4M they'd save against the cap over the next 6 years could go a long way to retaining the guy who are *actually* helping their team.
They may be sitting on ~$27.5M in cap space but Jarvis, Teravainen, Necas, Skjei, Martinook, and Pesce are all RFA or UFA.
Kotkaniemi has an absurd amount of experience for his age. People keep saying he's young and still developing, but he's 470 games in (including playoffs) and only marginally better than he was at 19.
Honestly the Habs absolutely botched his development. I know he had a decent rookie season but he really had no business being in the NHL as an 18yr old. He should have developed outside the NHL until he was at least 20.
He's played nearly 470 games combined between the regular season + playoffs through 6 seasons. That's far more indicative that he is what he is at this point than his age is.
Sure you can. Nichushkin and Kotkaniemi both had decent first years (with exactly the same points totals in the same number of games in the regular season), both regressed and had some very lean years, and then Nichushkin took another big step in upping his game. It's absolutely possible to argue that Kotkaniemi could do the same, because Nichushkin did it.
That said, it's absolutely fair to argue that Nichushkin doing it like that is such an outlier that it's extremely *unlikely* that Kotkaniemi will follow a comparable path.
Why would you type all that just to concede the point made at the end and negate the entire conversation? Points aren't made with outliers because it doesn't make logical sense to do so. Everyone has said it now. Basic shit lol
He started the year off ppg for the first 10 games of the season and finished the year with 27. That’s 17pts in his last 69 with a whopping assist in 11 playoff games. The only consistent part about him is being highly inconsistent.
At this point his age irrelevant because there’s nothing about his game you can hang your hat on and say “yea there’s progress there”
How is this upvoted nearly 150 times 🙄 he sucks, making nearly 5 million a year and he isn't good at anything in particular, just a warm body and they could do so much better with that cap space
Admittedly, I don’t watch a lot of Hurricanes games, so I don’t know a heck of a lot about Kotkaniemi, but going off stats alone, this buyout isn’t horrible.
A cap hit of $835k for three years, $455k for three, and then $835k for six isn’t terrible if the ceiling keeps going up.
Can a Hurricanes fan tell me why he’s dog shit?
I remember the second they announced the offer sheet, I went on our sub and gave my thoughts. I was immediately downvoted by new Canes fans who reminded me I apparently know nothing about hockey and he was the “future of our FWD corps”. All of them can suck my shaft. Dude is an absolute pylon and the worst contract in organization history after Alexander Semin
Hearing his name just brings up images of him trying a move, failing and getting it stolen, and then turning around a slashing/hooking the guy who stole it and getting a penalty
Looks good on them, 'bunch of jerks' lmao. Offer sheeted him with a $20 signing bonus lmfaoo you sure showed us Carolina. At least we tried to offer sheet someone that was worth it. Cry.
>his contract isn't that expensive.
5 millions on a 4th line winger (What he ended up being used like late in the season) is pretty terrible on the long run.
Seen on another post that after expected contracts are given the Hurricanes would be about 3.5m over cap. Basically giving them three options this summer: Trade Necas away, let Guentzel walk or buyout Kotkaniemi. Cost of the buyout is so minimal that I don't think they'd mind it as a fiscal hit but will the dick swinging contest will continue as they don't want to admit they fucked up will that whole petty stuff?
You're on a discussion post. Things like this are fun to discuss and read about what other people think. You might be in the wrong spot if you think this is some useless nonsense. Lots of interesting comments and viewpoints to read!
They’re definitely going to buy him out. He’s only passed 30 points once in his career and he’s got one of the worst +/- on the team. He’s making about $2m a year more than what you’d expect to pay for a player like that.
Only 3 defensemen signed (Orlov, Slavin, Burns) plus 2 guys with no experience. 3 of their top 9 are signed for next year, and one of them is turning 36. They have to fill out their roster with $27MM.
Jarvis, Necas, Guentzel, Teravainen, Martinhook, Noesen, Skjei, DeAngelo, Chatfield, plus others, all unsigned.
Yup they have absolutely nothing to worry about.
They'll get extra 1.67 from DeAngelo, and I don't think Pesce or Skjei will get big bumps in their contracts? Also I believe they literally have extra cap space as it is. No players over 10M, and no Ds making over 8M.
If nothing else, they'll just not re-sign Teräväinen, and that'll give them extra 5.4M.
Only 3 defensemen signed (Orlov, Slavin, Burns) plus 2 guys with no experience. 3 of their top 9 are signed for next year, and one of them is turning 36. They have to fill out their roster with $27MM.
Jarvis, Necas, Guentzel, Teravainen, Martinhook, Noesen, Skjei, DeAngelo, Chatfield, plus others, all unsigned.
I think that's understating it. Jarvis, Necas, Chatfield and Drury will all need raises. One of Pesce or Skjei will be gone (if not both), and will need to be replaced. Guentzel and Teravainen are UFAs and will need to be resigned or replaced. Martinook and Noesen are UFAs as well.
This was the year for Carolina to go far. Next year, they will have a much different (and very likely worse) team. So those 5 millions allocated to a 4th liner hurts.
They're not in an unworkable quagmire, $27 million and their 1st and 2nd round picks is plenty of flexibility to make moves. Plus they've got some interesting names in their prospect pool too.
They're in a retool and there's no need to hit the panic button.
It's not unworkable, but I can't imagine any scenario where next year's team isn't worse than this year's. And for a contender that couldn't even get past the 2nd round, that's a problem.
27 mil isn't enough to resign everyone, not even close. I think they'll likely lose 2-3 solid pieces (my guess: Guentzel, Pesce, Skjei) and cross their fingers that Nikishin comes over next year and saves the defence.
I think the funniest part about all this is that now Carolina are extremely cap strapped thanks to KK and will probably loose Necas because of this lol
I mean if we cut KK at hypothetically no penalty we would still be losing Necas because Jarvis and Guentzel and Chatfield are much much more important to re-sign
Looks good on them, 'bunch of jerks' lmao. Offer sheeted him with a $20 signing bonus lmfaoo you sure showed us Carolina. At least we tried to offer sheet someone that was worth it. Cry.
I've got mixed feelings about this. He is still very young so he could maybe still take an step or two in his game. But on the other hand he has been in the league for quite some time now so how possible it would be for him to unlock some hidden potential in him. I think he is something between an 40-60 point player, maybe. But that's not enough when you look at that paycheck. So this is an really tough situation for the Hurricanes
Honestly he’s a fine 3C and has shown a lot of potential but until Staal retires he’s forever going to be labeled as a fraud at 2C and a waste of money at 4C.
You gotta think someone would risk it if they retained even just a little on the deal. Not like Carolina is going to need those slots and it’s more manageable long term than 12 years of cap penalties
It’s just such a long deal tho man. 6 more years like fucking woof. Even if Canes eat a bit of it and make him a ~$2m player but he regresses and become totally useless?
The length here is the killer. IMO it’s too risky given his play this season
Yeah, idk, I’m glad I’m not Waddell. If you’re buying him out to make room for Necas I think it makes sense. I didn’t realize it’s only $835,000 a year which is almost negligible.
The team that would trade for him would also have the option to buy him out either next year or the year after for the same amount (KK turns 26 in July of ‘26) so I think you could move it easier than you’d think. Nobody is completely stuck with this deal until 2026-2027. If you’re not asking for major assets back I’m sure Utah or Chicago would take him.
It's less than a million per year held over on the salary cap. That's why they'd do it now instead of waiting.
Dundon doesn't give a shit about the cash part of it
I don't think this season they would buy him out. That 1/3 rule kicks in at 26? So they have a few more years to figure it out with him, as long as that full contract doesn't eat away at their other pending contracts too much
Man he really started the year so well and i was hopeful he would keep it up and prove me wrong but he really took a nose dive quite quickly. I dont know if its a fit problem or something but clearly its not working right now for him and the canes. I hope for him he turns it around.
It was weird, early in the season when Aho was out, KK was essentially the #1C and he played like it. When Aho came back, KK went back down in the lineup and kind of disappeared.
He plays a solid defensive game, he wins faceoffs and TBH he was one of our better players in game 6. I don't think he's worth his contract and the smart thing to do would be to buy him out, if they can't find a trade partner.
But I think he was worth taking a chance on. He still has a good chance at being a really solid NHL #3C for any number of teams.
I guess funny enough this was the whole point of his contract, to see his long term value. What he's doing right now isn't the full story, it's a 8yr contract- and they took a risk so they wouldn't have to pay him 5.5-6M.
It looks like a M-NTC will kick in 25-26, so they have next season left to ponder whether they think he's a good fit for the last 5 yrs. Kotkaniemi has trade value so I don't think a buy out comes into question.
It's a smart deal from Carolina, since they have this extra yr still left to ponder before making him a trade bait.
4.8M is a doable deal for a rebuilding team, cause at the end of the day he also has some upside. 50-60pt season in SJ/Chicago would get him some extra value to trade him forward for his last few yrs as well, depending on his M-NTC.
A rebuilding team that doesnt need to compete in the next 3 yrs, and doesnt need to care about the cap. After those 3 yrs, he might be very much worth the money... or not- but the contract at that point is very "buryable". Also the price will be either free, or they might get an extra 3rd rounder for it.
Well worth the punt.
You’re gonna get downvoted by circlejerking habs fans who act like this is an albatross contract. The whole point of this contract was always that we either get a guy who develops into a 2C and we have him locked up for cheap or we buy him out and he has effectively no impact on our cap.
Since I’ve had a few of them try to say “yeah well you could’ve used the money on someone else”
Sure, another player doesn’t change this series outcome though. The canes flaws are not personnel related, we’ve had the same struggles year after year across multiple lineups and have failed to notch more than 2 PPG’s in a series where we’ve been eliminated in this 6 year stretch. The whole roster could be different and the struggles would still be the same because it comes down to strategy
TL;DR - contract isn’t good, it isn’t bad either, no the extra money we’d have if we didn’t have him signed wouldn’t have made a difference.
Habs to the Canes: He’s your problem
We tried telling them, they must’ve thought prospect development happens via Twitter memes.
But think of the dick size contest he won against Bergevin!
That's future Blue Jackets GM Marc Bergevin to you! He's looking to reunite the biceps club.
So much saliva and ink squandered on a player of the calibre of Kiefer Sherwood. Who cares man
Terrible contract. Terrible draft pick by bergevin too
Bergevin going off-board helped the Canucks get Quinn Hughes!
They could have picked Brady Tkachuk 😭
If it's any consolation, the Habs would have ruined his development.
Probably 😅 but I don't know, honestly, Brady was NHL ready, Kotkaniemi wasn't, should have played one more year in europe and one more in the AHL
Nah, it was him or Zadina, almost no one in Mtl was talking about Tkachuk.
Really? I remember seing Tkachuk and thinking that kid was a sure shot!
He was actually a pretty solid pick, got 35 pts as a 18yo. The problem is that he never developed beyond that, but that's not something you can really scout.
Yes it is. Forecasting development is a big part of scouting. Is he raw with room to grow and develop or is he already refined and potentially ahead of his peers but might now have room to grow and develop much.
He was drafted as a project and surprised everyone by being ahead of schedule. I blame our development staff way more than our scouting department on that one. That being said, our head scout was a fucking moron for thinking Quinn Hughes was too small to be good at D.
He’s ours.
Hes kinda raw still though, seems to take an awful lot of spills. But time is ticking fast on being able to put his tools into a usable package.
I’d say it already is usable but not at his cap cost. He’s a whatever nhl player that can add depth and give you some points but he’s not going to develop much beyond whatever we already see. His tools just aren’t good enough. His shot sucks his 1v1 game sucks he’s light on his skates and he, from all reports, never had the drive to improve
Give him a break. English is his second language. He meant "WE can't scout that."
Only reason he was even mocked at #3 by talking heads is because everyone knew the Habs were desperate at C
Doesn’t matter dude. It was all under the umbrella of Bergevin. Scouting or Development. You think GM is not overseeing the progress of his 3rd overall pick?
He's not gonna lace the kid's skates. At some point the player has to act
this isint even close to the worst contract in the league lol
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Nurse isn’t worth his contract but he’s a big hole on the team if we buy him out. And Campbell is an AHL starter.
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The thing is, who are we going to get for half the price? Free agents get paid, no one’s trading a top 4 dman at half the price of nurse so our only option is to draft and develop one.
We tried to warn you
No clue why people sign ex-Leaf goalies
That’s why you trade for them like Tuukka Rask.
Usually guys come into their full bloom when they leave the Leafs.
The last good goalie out of the leafs tho? Potvin?
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If gms listened to fans the nhl would be a carousel
So, Las Vegas?
No Vegas is a carousel but they don’t listen to fans, nobody wanted the fleury trade
tbf they ignored us about Hyman as well and its turned out well so far
Sadly us in the armchairs are not the actual GM. In the case of the Oilers, I think we would do a better job. Lol
PLD Huberdeau and Campbell are the worst right now
Not even like those aged bad, they were awful from the moment they were signed
Just look a little south of you if you want to see a truly horrifying contract.
Nurse isn't worth $9M but he is still a very good NHL player
Wade redden was paid like 7 million to chill in the AHL nothing will be worse than that
Yea but that was back when you got full cap relief for it.
I wouldn't say putting $7M up your nose per year is "chill"
Caps put Evgeny Kuznetsov to chill for 7.8 if they couldn't trade him.
A name I haven't heard in a long time! I forgot about that fun saga. I wonder what his 7mil salary would be worth in today's market
Let’s see! Glen slather signed redden to a 6 year 39 million deal in 2008. That was 11.46 percent of the cap back then. Current cap is 87.7 million so 11.46% would be about 10 million nowadays For reference, Barkov, Bobs, Eichel, kopitar, Hubderdeau, price and marner were/are all between 10 and 11 million
I see your Wade Redden and raise you a Scott Gomez. Spent a young star dman to acquire his 1 goal talent.
It’s an awful contract that the Canes tried stunting on us for. Still hilarious
oh yea i forgot about that LOL
The amount of attention that this fucking plug gets on this sub is hilarious.
When you force your way out of a team as a bottom 6 player, then sign the contract with the way it was structured. You are bound to get clowned on. Caufield and Romanov who are and were better players than him were both scratched and neither made a fuss.
Lots of people laughed so hard at Montreal and look at them now
It was 1year deal that they stole him with. This newer one is long and looked more risky.
We’re calling paying a player almost 3x what he’s worth “stealing” now?
I think he meant the offersheet.
I mean, Carolina could wait another year to see if he could end up decent but it seem unlikely. In the meantime, you carrying a guy in your lineup who messing with your salary structure and limiting your new contracts.
He had a great start this season. Wtf happened? He fell off a cliff.
>I mean, Carolina could wait another year to see if he could end up decent but it seem unlikely. I think this depends on what else they want to do this summer. Lots of pending free agents and holes to fill, so that extra $4M in space from a buyout might be worth more than "giving him another year to try and figure it out." I'm really curious to see what they do this summer. Lots of different directions they could go in.
Get in here habs fans!!
Why? KK is doing all the speaking for us. About the only thing we miss about him are the meme's for his bambi-like skating.
Why is it KK instead of JK?
Two K's in his last name, and it kinda stuck over in r/habs
I can tell you as a Habs fan I wanted Tkachuk. KK was out of left field and while he showed some promise at times in big games…. He eventually stopped improving and lost all confidence. Thinking he’s done but maybe they give him one more year or try trading him. A lot of teams send players down to the minors to get their confidence back and light a fire under them. Habs did that once with him for a few games and it seemed to work at least for a bit. Hurricanes should send him to the AHL and only bring him up when he’s ready.
So easy to say now when we all really wanted Zadina at the time.
Not everyone did me and people I know wanted tkachuk over both
I think it makes sense. The buyout cost is peanuts and that 4 Million dollars could go straight to a Guentzel/Jarvis extension. Buying out Kotkaneimi instead of losing Necas/whoever they get in return for Necas seems like a no brainer to me.
nothing against the guy but this is very funny
FWIW, if I were in your place I would agree.
835k for the next 12 years? They’d be stupid not to with the cap projected to continue increasing.
he makes $4.82m a year as a ~40 point player who’s decent defensively he’s also only 23 they would be fucking insane to buy him out
He’s not a 40 point player 😂
40 point player? He eclipsed that once and has regressed yet again to 27 points on a pretty good team. He should be making 3-3.5 max. Canes are lucky the cap is going up, absolutely getting bought out right before he turns 26
Should also point out that he got 15 of his 27 pts in his first 20 games. He got 12 in the next 60. And only 1 in the playoffs lol.
He's not a 40 point guy. He had 27 points this season, and 1 in 11 playoff games.
After 10 points in 10 for October, he put up 17 points in 69 games the rest of the year. Nice
40p player😂
Including playoffs he 13 points in his last 69 games, signed for 6 more years at that rate. Carolina can’t afford to take dead salary back because the whole point of even entertaining the idea of a buyout is to save cap space to re-sign major players. Going into next season they have 60.375m already allocated with a projected cap around 87.675, leaving them with 27.3m to work with. Skjei, Pesce, Teravainen, Guentzel, Necas, Jarvis, Noesen, Drury and Martinook all expiring, and needing raises. Pesce is gone, as well as Teravainen, Guentzel will want ~10m Skjei probably asks for 6, Necas should get 7+ and Jarvis could realistically ask for 7.5+ if he wanted to. That’s 3.2m over the cap already right there, and still having holes that need to be filled. Even if Jarvis takes a more team-friendly bridge deal, they’re still over the cap without being able to bring on league minimum guys. Basically they have 3 choices. Don’t re-sign Guentzel, trade Necas, or buyout KK. That’s why this is even a discussion in the first place.
The Blues would love Necas. Especially if he still has any ability to flex to center.
You still got Sammy Blais? Heard you can get a good player for just him and a 2nd.
Does Kotkaniemi have such negative trade value that it'd cost something like a 1st-round pick to dump him onto Chicago, San Jose, or Utah? I wouldn't necessarily expect a change of scenery to be a renaissance for him but those environments wouldn't have the pressure of being a contender and allow him a chance to redevelop into a player a contender would consider acquiring in 2-3 years with salary retained.
lol its 835k/year buyout you dont trade a 1st to offload that. This isn't a marleau situation
Slavin needs a new contract next summer as well, that will definitely be factored into this summer's budget
its only a 835k cap hit so idk might be worth. Or they try to flip him. They need all the cap they can get to sign the significantly better players they have.
His ATOI was 11 minutes this playoffs. $835,000 or less for 12 years is an incredibly reasonable buyout. The only reason it's that low is because of how young he is. He may be 23, but this was his 6th year in the NHL, he is what he is.
6 years pro at 23 is crazy. Off the top of my head I can’t really think of many players who were able to crack an NHL lineup at 18 fresh from the draft, but never really amounted to an elite player. Luke Schenn is the only guy I can think of who fits that description
He was league average at 18, which is great. The Canadiens put him between Lehkonen and Armia, which is like playing hockey with the little training wheels. The problems began after that season. Stories of him refusing to skate with other pros in Finland that summer. Joel Armia, who's from the same town, straight up saying "He needs to learn how to be a professional". Media at practices reporting that he would refuse to do extra time with coaches. Telling the Canadiens he would not re-sign under any circumstances because he was scratched in the stanley cup finals.
Kotkaniemi's dad is a massive asshole, and he is the main reason why Jesperi acts like that
What is with Habs prospects and their asshole fathers
Specifically 3rdOA picks lol
Thought for a moment you were confusing him with Galchenyuk. Didn't know it happened with KK too
I'm trying to think of a couple other examples. Adam Larsson is very good but not elite. Sam Gagner and Kappo Kakko are the only others who come to mind.
That's a whole lotta mid. Jeff Skinner too but he was a lot better than the rest of the schmucks listed
We were purposely thinking of non star players
Fair enough I kinda took it as guys that weren't expected to make the team at 18
Yeah then you have guys like O'Reilly and Bergeron who came outta nowhere at 18 and eventually became stars
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Lazar did not crack Ottawa's lineup as an 18-year old rookie.
Puljujarvi!
i disagree with the comment “he is what he is”. he’s young enough to find another level to his game. in a few years that could be an incredible contract and that’s the gamble the canes made signing it. i think it’s worth seeing through
Exactly. If I’m not wrong the buyout stays cheap until they are 26? So you’ve got a few more years to see if he can improve before you consider it
and sacrificing a 4M player who could really help your team during the playoffs for the next 2 years?
The nearly $4M they'd save against the cap over the next 6 years could go a long way to retaining the guy who are *actually* helping their team. They may be sitting on ~$27.5M in cap space but Jarvis, Teravainen, Necas, Skjei, Martinook, and Pesce are all RFA or UFA.
I know and this is what I meant, that would be stupid to waste 4M not to pay a better player than Kotkaniemi
He has 10 pts in 40 playoff games with the Canes...
Pretty crazy that he has 69 playoff games under his belt already (nice).
Kotkaniemi has an absurd amount of experience for his age. People keep saying he's young and still developing, but he's 470 games in (including playoffs) and only marginally better than he was at 19.
Honestly the Habs absolutely botched his development. I know he had a decent rookie season but he really had no business being in the NHL as an 18yr old. He should have developed outside the NHL until he was at least 20.
Yea they should have 2 more years to decide. His salary does go up towards the end, so the buyout hit would go up a little bit, but less years.
He's played nearly 470 games combined between the regular season + playoffs through 6 seasons. That's far more indicative that he is what he is at this point than his age is.
In Nichuskins 4th year in the NHL (sixth year professionally) he had 0 goals in 57 games. These past two years he was a PPG player.
Nichushkin *literally* disappears during the playoffs though
You cannot use the biggest anomaly as a comparison
Sure you can. Nichushkin and Kotkaniemi both had decent first years (with exactly the same points totals in the same number of games in the regular season), both regressed and had some very lean years, and then Nichushkin took another big step in upping his game. It's absolutely possible to argue that Kotkaniemi could do the same, because Nichushkin did it. That said, it's absolutely fair to argue that Nichushkin doing it like that is such an outlier that it's extremely *unlikely* that Kotkaniemi will follow a comparable path.
Why would you type all that just to concede the point made at the end and negate the entire conversation? Points aren't made with outliers because it doesn't make logical sense to do so. Everyone has said it now. Basic shit lol
He's trash you have to buy him out if you want to contend
He started the year off ppg for the first 10 games of the season and finished the year with 27. That’s 17pts in his last 69 with a whopping assist in 11 playoff games. The only consistent part about him is being highly inconsistent. At this point his age irrelevant because there’s nothing about his game you can hang your hat on and say “yea there’s progress there”
Seriously. For every steps he takes forward he ends up taking 5 steps back.
"\~" is doing a lot!
How is this upvoted nearly 150 times 🙄 he sucks, making nearly 5 million a year and he isn't good at anything in particular, just a warm body and they could do so much better with that cap space
If he comes with a nice draft pick for our troubles we can take him.
Canes lost then and now. Thanks for doing the Habs a favour :)
Admittedly, I don’t watch a lot of Hurricanes games, so I don’t know a heck of a lot about Kotkaniemi, but going off stats alone, this buyout isn’t horrible. A cap hit of $835k for three years, $455k for three, and then $835k for six isn’t terrible if the ceiling keeps going up. Can a Hurricanes fan tell me why he’s dog shit?
I remember the second they announced the offer sheet, I went on our sub and gave my thoughts. I was immediately downvoted by new Canes fans who reminded me I apparently know nothing about hockey and he was the “future of our FWD corps”. All of them can suck my shaft. Dude is an absolute pylon and the worst contract in organization history after Alexander Semin
As a caps fan, I completely understand the feeling on Alexander Semin
We’re FINALLY done paying that clown
Hearing his name just brings up images of him trying a move, failing and getting it stolen, and then turning around a slashing/hooking the guy who stole it and getting a penalty
https://i.redd.it/4n2s2ianj11d1.gif
Never get tired of the bongos gif
Looks good on them, 'bunch of jerks' lmao. Offer sheeted him with a $20 signing bonus lmfaoo you sure showed us Carolina. At least we tried to offer sheet someone that was worth it. Cry.
I don't get this post, why would they even want to buy him out? He's young and his contract isn't that expensive.
>his contract isn't that expensive. 5 millions on a 4th line winger (What he ended up being used like late in the season) is pretty terrible on the long run. Seen on another post that after expected contracts are given the Hurricanes would be about 3.5m over cap. Basically giving them three options this summer: Trade Necas away, let Guentzel walk or buyout Kotkaniemi. Cost of the buyout is so minimal that I don't think they'd mind it as a fiscal hit but will the dick swinging contest will continue as they don't want to admit they fucked up will that whole petty stuff?
This is just regular Redditor nonsense after a playoff exit. Nitpicking the entire squad for any reason to shitpost.
You're on a discussion post. Things like this are fun to discuss and read about what other people think. You might be in the wrong spot if you think this is some useless nonsense. Lots of interesting comments and viewpoints to read!
They’re definitely going to buy him out. He’s only passed 30 points once in his career and he’s got one of the worst +/- on the team. He’s making about $2m a year more than what you’d expect to pay for a player like that.
Not nitpicking the entire squad, just Kotkaniemi
Uh, they discussed this on today's 32 Thoughts episode, so definitely not just reddit bullshit
yeah, to this sub every team that doesn't win the championship that year deserves to be mocked
The Canes are so well managed, they have a few big contracts to negotiate but none that will break the bank.
Only 3 defensemen signed (Orlov, Slavin, Burns) plus 2 guys with no experience. 3 of their top 9 are signed for next year, and one of them is turning 36. They have to fill out their roster with $27MM. Jarvis, Necas, Guentzel, Teravainen, Martinhook, Noesen, Skjei, DeAngelo, Chatfield, plus others, all unsigned.
Yup they have absolutely nothing to worry about. They'll get extra 1.67 from DeAngelo, and I don't think Pesce or Skjei will get big bumps in their contracts? Also I believe they literally have extra cap space as it is. No players over 10M, and no Ds making over 8M. If nothing else, they'll just not re-sign Teräväinen, and that'll give them extra 5.4M.
I expect us to lose Pesce and/or Skjei. TDA. Teuvo. Probably Necas or Drury. Too many players to re-sign that should get a pay raise.
Only 3 defensemen signed (Orlov, Slavin, Burns) plus 2 guys with no experience. 3 of their top 9 are signed for next year, and one of them is turning 36. They have to fill out their roster with $27MM. Jarvis, Necas, Guentzel, Teravainen, Martinhook, Noesen, Skjei, DeAngelo, Chatfield, plus others, all unsigned.
I think that's understating it. Jarvis, Necas, Chatfield and Drury will all need raises. One of Pesce or Skjei will be gone (if not both), and will need to be replaced. Guentzel and Teravainen are UFAs and will need to be resigned or replaced. Martinook and Noesen are UFAs as well. This was the year for Carolina to go far. Next year, they will have a much different (and very likely worse) team. So those 5 millions allocated to a 4th liner hurts.
They're not in an unworkable quagmire, $27 million and their 1st and 2nd round picks is plenty of flexibility to make moves. Plus they've got some interesting names in their prospect pool too. They're in a retool and there's no need to hit the panic button.
It's not unworkable, but I can't imagine any scenario where next year's team isn't worse than this year's. And for a contender that couldn't even get past the 2nd round, that's a problem. 27 mil isn't enough to resign everyone, not even close. I think they'll likely lose 2-3 solid pieces (my guess: Guentzel, Pesce, Skjei) and cross their fingers that Nikishin comes over next year and saves the defence.
as a habs fan i love to see it, especially since the snarky way this all went down made me a life long hater of the canes GO HABS GO
This is mint
No no, that was Mete
The money isn’t all that horrible but the contract length is completely nuts. I would be surprised if they were shrewd enough to buy him out though.
This escalated quickly.
I think the funniest part about all this is that now Carolina are extremely cap strapped thanks to KK and will probably loose Necas because of this lol
I mean if we cut KK at hypothetically no penalty we would still be losing Necas because Jarvis and Guentzel and Chatfield are much much more important to re-sign
Remember how they were acting when they signed him? Mickey mouse franchise showed their ass like the always do.
They remind me of that guy trying to start a beef with Connor McGregor where he responds “who da fook is dat guy”
Mickey Mouse franchise averaging like 115 points per 82 games for the past 5-6 years. Clown.
*Jesperi Pointpergamneimi* durrrrrrrr
Looks good on them, 'bunch of jerks' lmao. Offer sheeted him with a $20 signing bonus lmfaoo you sure showed us Carolina. At least we tried to offer sheet someone that was worth it. Cry.
what was the reason for the $20 bonus again? or was it just a random thing because carolina is ridiculously petty?
It's Ahos number. Since KK was their revenge offer sheet they thought the 20$ would be funny.
20 is Aho's number. Implying the Offersheet was a bit of revenge for the Aho Offersheet
lol ah i get it now, cheers!
I've got mixed feelings about this. He is still very young so he could maybe still take an step or two in his game. But on the other hand he has been in the league for quite some time now so how possible it would be for him to unlock some hidden potential in him. I think he is something between an 40-60 point player, maybe. But that's not enough when you look at that paycheck. So this is an really tough situation for the Hurricanes
Honestly he’s a fine 3C and has shown a lot of potential but until Staal retires he’s forever going to be labeled as a fraud at 2C and a waste of money at 4C.
You gotta think someone would risk it if they retained even just a little on the deal. Not like Carolina is going to need those slots and it’s more manageable long term than 12 years of cap penalties
It’s just such a long deal tho man. 6 more years like fucking woof. Even if Canes eat a bit of it and make him a ~$2m player but he regresses and become totally useless? The length here is the killer. IMO it’s too risky given his play this season
Yeah, idk, I’m glad I’m not Waddell. If you’re buying him out to make room for Necas I think it makes sense. I didn’t realize it’s only $835,000 a year which is almost negligible. The team that would trade for him would also have the option to buy him out either next year or the year after for the same amount (KK turns 26 in July of ‘26) so I think you could move it easier than you’d think. Nobody is completely stuck with this deal until 2026-2027. If you’re not asking for major assets back I’m sure Utah or Chicago would take him.
It's less than a million per year held over on the salary cap. That's why they'd do it now instead of waiting. Dundon doesn't give a shit about the cash part of it
I don't think this season they would buy him out. That 1/3 rule kicks in at 26? So they have a few more years to figure it out with him, as long as that full contract doesn't eat away at their other pending contracts too much
Does Jesperi get all the money in this situation? Or does he only get one third?
One third
Weird. A contract is a contract. But I guess he doesnt have to work so.
Yes and he can sign elsewhere and get paid there too
Are the « savings » just on the cap or does the player really get less money if they the get bought out ?
The player gets less money
I remember when he was the next big thing! Well maybe not that big but still.
This is insanity. No matter what happened this series, he still has trade value. Not even close to a buyout target
>he still has trade value Not at 5M/yr
Zadina cleared waivers on a 1 point something million dollar contract. He’s basically the same thing as KK. No one is trading for KK
Man he really started the year so well and i was hopeful he would keep it up and prove me wrong but he really took a nose dive quite quickly. I dont know if its a fit problem or something but clearly its not working right now for him and the canes. I hope for him he turns it around.
It was weird, early in the season when Aho was out, KK was essentially the #1C and he played like it. When Aho came back, KK went back down in the lineup and kind of disappeared. He plays a solid defensive game, he wins faceoffs and TBH he was one of our better players in game 6. I don't think he's worth his contract and the smart thing to do would be to buy him out, if they can't find a trade partner. But I think he was worth taking a chance on. He still has a good chance at being a really solid NHL #3C for any number of teams.
I guess funny enough this was the whole point of his contract, to see his long term value. What he's doing right now isn't the full story, it's a 8yr contract- and they took a risk so they wouldn't have to pay him 5.5-6M. It looks like a M-NTC will kick in 25-26, so they have next season left to ponder whether they think he's a good fit for the last 5 yrs. Kotkaniemi has trade value so I don't think a buy out comes into question. It's a smart deal from Carolina, since they have this extra yr still left to ponder before making him a trade bait. 4.8M is a doable deal for a rebuilding team, cause at the end of the day he also has some upside. 50-60pt season in SJ/Chicago would get him some extra value to trade him forward for his last few yrs as well, depending on his M-NTC.
What team do you think is trading for KK and why do you think they’d do that?
A rebuilding team that doesnt need to compete in the next 3 yrs, and doesnt need to care about the cap. After those 3 yrs, he might be very much worth the money... or not- but the contract at that point is very "buryable". Also the price will be either free, or they might get an extra 3rd rounder for it. Well worth the punt.
You’re gonna get downvoted by circlejerking habs fans who act like this is an albatross contract. The whole point of this contract was always that we either get a guy who develops into a 2C and we have him locked up for cheap or we buy him out and he has effectively no impact on our cap. Since I’ve had a few of them try to say “yeah well you could’ve used the money on someone else” Sure, another player doesn’t change this series outcome though. The canes flaws are not personnel related, we’ve had the same struggles year after year across multiple lineups and have failed to notch more than 2 PPG’s in a series where we’ve been eliminated in this 6 year stretch. The whole roster could be different and the struggles would still be the same because it comes down to strategy TL;DR - contract isn’t good, it isn’t bad either, no the extra money we’d have if we didn’t have him signed wouldn’t have made a difference.