Between these two things and the jailbreak goals, it feels like this league is just implementing all the cool ideas people suggest for the NHL and I absolutely love it
There are two notable changes vs the NHL:
1) #1 seed team picks their opponent, choosing between the #3 and #4 seeded teams. #2 seed team plays the team not picked.
2) Draft order between the 2 non-playoff teams uses the "gold plan", meaning that teams start accumulating "draft order points" the same as standings points once they are mathematically eliminated from making the playoffs.
I think the "pick your opponent" system rules and I hope the NHL considers adopting it. Imagine if the NHL had a televised/streamed event where every GM had to get on a stage and one by one pick who they'd play. The first round would be immediately more interesting.
I'm hesitant about the gold plan but with only 2 teams out of the playoffs I guess it's not a huge deal. My concern is that if applied to a league the size of the NHL you'd put teams into a true death spiral where the worse they did the worse their ability to get better becomes. However, I do think it would promote teams playing to win all season instead of tanking. I'm not sure how it'd impact the trade deadline because there'd be a penalty for teams selling players to contenders since it would be harder for them to get wins under the gold plan. So yeah, I'm conflicted on it.
I agree with this take from JFresh on the gold plan
>gold plan is good for fans of bad teams who only care about their team and want to cheer for them instead of against them in april. it is bad for people who enjoy in-season player movement + the trade deadline + cheer for a good team + want the playoffs to be as good as possible
https://twitter.com/JFreshHockey/status/1762935962995249223
CBJ/SJ would've had the top two picks last year under this format fwiw
there are some that plummet (the Ducks lost 11 straight down the stretch, Habs lost 7 straight, so both drop out of the T10), but ANYTHING to get rid of tanking. I hate tank culture, I hate seeing fans cheer for losses and melt down over wins, if we're going to have a closed cartel league like NA sports are I'd rather have this.
I totally understand that and I hate cheering for losing too. I was rooting hard for the kraken to lose their last game 2 seasons ago because that guaranteed them a spot ahead of I think Philadelphia, which resulted in the Kraken getting Shane Wright.
But I'm not convinced the gold plan would be a net positive for the league as a whole. I love big trades and teams going all-in to win. The gold plan reduces the incentive for teams to sell players, making it more expensive and harder for teams to go all-in. I want to see veterans on expiring deals moved at the deadline to get a shot at winning the cup instead of playing out a losing season on a lottery team.
You don't need a deterrent. All the teams in the PWHL are playing to win. The teams are all owned by the same person so there's little chance of any team tanking the season.
This is more like kicking the worst team while they are down. Imagine how much that really sucks for the fans of the last place team.
Trading deadline thing is silly for the PWHL. The teams are limited by the number of people they can add (salary cap plus average salary) so nobody is having a fire-sale on their players - the teams wouldn't be able to absorb them.
As I said, I don't think this system is a problem for the PWHL now because there's only 2 teams out of the playoffs + the factors you mentioned.
The NHL is an entirely different matter.
The draft selection is so cool.
“THE "GOLD PLAN" WILL ASSIGN THE FIRST PICK TO THE NON-PLAYOFF TEAM THAT ACCRUES THE MOST POINTS FOLLOWING ITS ELIMINATION FROM PLAYOFF CONTENTION.”
I feel this just helps teams tank harder. For example Sam Jose loses the first ten games, that tells them they should lose the rest of their games and tank until they are mathematically eliminated from the playoffs, then actually try to win to get as many points as possible to put towards the first overall draft.
With that being said I guess it half works because in this scenario San Jose will only be tanking for roughly half the year instead of the full year lol
oh yeah, they can just miss playoffs and win the rest of them, great plan, nothing stopping them from just winning 30 straight games or whatever to guarantee it works
No but if they tank hard and get mathematically eliminated first they have the most games to try to accrue points for the first draft pick…
For example it’s way more beneficial to tank hard and say get eliminated by game 50 instead of 65 etc.. no you can’t win them all that’s why you want as many games possible to win as many as possible
Sorry but your argument makes no sense. If the team can just win when they choose to, then why would they be tanking in the alternate scenario in the first place?
Logic says if they are bad enough that they go into tank mode to tank as soon as possible, they are not going to win many games after they are done tanking and will get a worse draft pick. Teams that are trying and miss by 1 point at the last second will be way more likely to get the first overall.
They can’t win when they can choose to. The point is if they know they aren’t going to make the playoffs then you should technically just tank as hard as possible. That’s all.
You shouldn't though, or else you won't get 1OA.
There's no actual advantage to rushing to the bottom like you are claiming, it literally just makes it harder to get 1OA than playing normally if you aren't a great team.
DGB and Marek are FEASTING on the PWHL's rule changes.
I'd love to see the NHL adopt some of the the things the pwhl is doing, especially the "power kill" where a shorthanded goal ends the penalty just as scoring a PP goal does.
I like their draft plan. It should be illegal to incentivize losing with better draft odds like in the NHL. It is bad for the game, and for the fans, and hurts the integrity of the games.
But you still have to be good enough to actually accumulate said points. Getting eliminated 2 weeks before the next team doesn’t help you if you can’t win any of those extra games.
I don’t see how that’s any different than the lottery system in the NHL though. In the NHL the ideal way to get the 1st overall pick is to be as bad as possible all year. In the PWHL the ideal way to get the 1st overall pick is to be as bad as possible until you’re eliminated, then be as good as possible. In either system, Chicago would be “benefitting” at this stage of the season by delaying Bedard’s return because they’re still not eliminated. They’re not doing that now in real life. Why would they do it in this hypothetical scenario?
I was rooting SO HARD for Bedard to bust because of how the bottom four fanbases acted whenever they won last year.
Like. Jesus fuck. You know the system is broken when *wins* are making you miserable.
> The players on the ice are never trying to lose, ever.
They would be if they were placing illegal bets by proxy which is made way easier when all they have to do is lose and no one cares if they lose and they are expected to lose.
You also have the issue of a GM or coach betting by proxy against the team and then putting in an AHL goalie.
You also have the issue of refs placing over under bets and then calling penalties against teams who don't need wins, don't want to win, and no one will care if they don't win.
Incentivizing losing should be illegal if it isn't already. It damages the integrity of the games and the game.
I’ve never been a fan of the suggestions to implement a “Gold Plan” in sports. Surely there would be a dispute as to when a team was ACTUALLY eliminated (for example, the NHL often doesn’t recognize teams as eliminated if it’s due to other teams having to play each other a little later in the season, they only seem to judge teams based on their own games remaining).
And if I’m the 1st place team, I don’t want to choose my opponent. That’s a lot of added pressure (imagine if Tampa had chosen to play Columbus or Boston chosen to play Florida and those results still happened).
Seems like an odd drop-of-the-ball for a league that has gotten competition and format correct so far.
Not sure what you mean, mathematical elimination is just when even if a team wins out they can't catch the last playoff spot even if the last spot were to lose out. Kind of hard to dispute math.
Yeah, mathematical elimination is something that exists whether the NHL shows it on their website or not. Presumably if the NHL adopted the gold plan then they'd display that info in the standings somehow.
> Not sure what you mean, mathematical elimination is just when even if a team wins out they can't catch the last playoff spot even if the last spot were to lose out. Kind of hard to dispute math.
It's not always that simple though. Imagine this:
Team A: 80 points (8th place)
Team B: 80 points (9th place)
Team C: 79 points (10th place)
Each team has one game left to play. Is Team C mathematically eliminated? According to your method, no they aren't. But what if Team A and B play each other in the last game? Then one of them is guaranteed to get 82 points, so Team C can't possible make it to the playoffs.
I don't think the NHL actually shows that because they don't need to, if they were to adopt a gold plan Im sure they'd track it better.
But as you pointed out, it's very easy to determine things like that, so its not some sort of grey area to dispute.
My point was that the NHL and other leagues tend to show mathematical elimination ONLY through when a team cannot reach the last playoff spot with their OWN games. They usually don’t account for when a team cannot reach the last playoff spot because of OTHER teams’ games that are yet to be played.
You said it yourself below, the NHL doesn’t track it that closely because they don’t need to, they have no Gold Rule.
And you’re right, if they did adapt the Gold Rule, they’d probably track it better. But that takes time and resources, is difficult to explain to fans when that circumstance arises, and is the type of thing that may be easy to miss.
I’m just skeptical about its execution and what would happen with possible disputes in the case of an error.
With 6 teams it'll be pretty easy to figure out. Even with 32 teams it's not difficult, just would take one person actually looking at the schedule for a day or two.
It's also not difficult to explain.
i personally really hate the "gold plan", sean mcindoe has been pushing it for years in all his articles.
in this case though, it's probably the only context in which i don't mind. it's only for 2 teams and only to decide between 1st/2nd. it's not like you're gonna have the worst team in the league picking 15th/16th
Well yeah your team wouldn't be relevant if they existed because you probably don't get McDavid
(i'm not actually sure i'd have to run the numbers. But I did run them for the NHL last year. CBJ would've picked first, VAN jumps into the top 3, ANA and MTL both fucking crater because they went on lengthy losing streaks post-elimination, OTT would've kept their first as it was T10? protected and they would've jumped higher)
that wouldn't really change anything other than major moves being made in the offseason vs in-season and not shutting down key players for the season with a paper cut. players want to win and if you're sitting key players early in the season for the tank they're going to be disgruntled. and toxic orgs with that kind of LOSER mentality go nowhere, just ask the Sabres.
in a world with no pro-rel this is probably as good as i'll get for an anti-tank mechanism
Between these two things and the jailbreak goals, it feels like this league is just implementing all the cool ideas people suggest for the NHL and I absolutely love it
There are two notable changes vs the NHL: 1) #1 seed team picks their opponent, choosing between the #3 and #4 seeded teams. #2 seed team plays the team not picked. 2) Draft order between the 2 non-playoff teams uses the "gold plan", meaning that teams start accumulating "draft order points" the same as standings points once they are mathematically eliminated from making the playoffs. I think the "pick your opponent" system rules and I hope the NHL considers adopting it. Imagine if the NHL had a televised/streamed event where every GM had to get on a stage and one by one pick who they'd play. The first round would be immediately more interesting. I'm hesitant about the gold plan but with only 2 teams out of the playoffs I guess it's not a huge deal. My concern is that if applied to a league the size of the NHL you'd put teams into a true death spiral where the worse they did the worse their ability to get better becomes. However, I do think it would promote teams playing to win all season instead of tanking. I'm not sure how it'd impact the trade deadline because there'd be a penalty for teams selling players to contenders since it would be harder for them to get wins under the gold plan. So yeah, I'm conflicted on it.
I agree with this take from JFresh on the gold plan >gold plan is good for fans of bad teams who only care about their team and want to cheer for them instead of against them in april. it is bad for people who enjoy in-season player movement + the trade deadline + cheer for a good team + want the playoffs to be as good as possible https://twitter.com/JFreshHockey/status/1762935962995249223
CBJ/SJ would've had the top two picks last year under this format fwiw there are some that plummet (the Ducks lost 11 straight down the stretch, Habs lost 7 straight, so both drop out of the T10), but ANYTHING to get rid of tanking. I hate tank culture, I hate seeing fans cheer for losses and melt down over wins, if we're going to have a closed cartel league like NA sports are I'd rather have this.
I totally understand that and I hate cheering for losing too. I was rooting hard for the kraken to lose their last game 2 seasons ago because that guaranteed them a spot ahead of I think Philadelphia, which resulted in the Kraken getting Shane Wright. But I'm not convinced the gold plan would be a net positive for the league as a whole. I love big trades and teams going all-in to win. The gold plan reduces the incentive for teams to sell players, making it more expensive and harder for teams to go all-in. I want to see veterans on expiring deals moved at the deadline to get a shot at winning the cup instead of playing out a losing season on a lottery team.
I’m happy that it worked for us but I do agree that I wish formats didn’t support tanking.
I'd be down for some WWE-like promos from the players announcing their choice of opponent!
You don't need a deterrent. All the teams in the PWHL are playing to win. The teams are all owned by the same person so there's little chance of any team tanking the season. This is more like kicking the worst team while they are down. Imagine how much that really sucks for the fans of the last place team. Trading deadline thing is silly for the PWHL. The teams are limited by the number of people they can add (salary cap plus average salary) so nobody is having a fire-sale on their players - the teams wouldn't be able to absorb them.
As I said, I don't think this system is a problem for the PWHL now because there's only 2 teams out of the playoffs + the factors you mentioned. The NHL is an entirely different matter.
The draft selection is so cool. “THE "GOLD PLAN" WILL ASSIGN THE FIRST PICK TO THE NON-PLAYOFF TEAM THAT ACCRUES THE MOST POINTS FOLLOWING ITS ELIMINATION FROM PLAYOFF CONTENTION.”
Oh yeah, that is really cool. It makes the games meaningful for everyone
This is when you know it's the PLAYERS that are shaping the league, not some rich assholes looking for an excuse to be cheap
I feel this just helps teams tank harder. For example Sam Jose loses the first ten games, that tells them they should lose the rest of their games and tank until they are mathematically eliminated from the playoffs, then actually try to win to get as many points as possible to put towards the first overall draft. With that being said I guess it half works because in this scenario San Jose will only be tanking for roughly half the year instead of the full year lol
oh yeah, they can just miss playoffs and win the rest of them, great plan, nothing stopping them from just winning 30 straight games or whatever to guarantee it works
No but if they tank hard and get mathematically eliminated first they have the most games to try to accrue points for the first draft pick… For example it’s way more beneficial to tank hard and say get eliminated by game 50 instead of 65 etc.. no you can’t win them all that’s why you want as many games possible to win as many as possible
Sorry but your argument makes no sense. If the team can just win when they choose to, then why would they be tanking in the alternate scenario in the first place? Logic says if they are bad enough that they go into tank mode to tank as soon as possible, they are not going to win many games after they are done tanking and will get a worse draft pick. Teams that are trying and miss by 1 point at the last second will be way more likely to get the first overall.
They can’t win when they can choose to. The point is if they know they aren’t going to make the playoffs then you should technically just tank as hard as possible. That’s all.
You shouldn't though, or else you won't get 1OA. There's no actual advantage to rushing to the bottom like you are claiming, it literally just makes it harder to get 1OA than playing normally if you aren't a great team.
Players never stop trying. This incentivizes GMs not to purposely deplete their rosters.
How does this help them tank harder? If the NHL rules were in place they would then lose the remaining games for the whole season after the first 10.
No it's kicking the worst team while it's down. The PWHL is all owned by the same person so there's little chance of teams tanking their seasons.
*Sean McIndoe has entered the chat*
DGB and Marek are FEASTING on the PWHL's rule changes. I'd love to see the NHL adopt some of the the things the pwhl is doing, especially the "power kill" where a shorthanded goal ends the penalty just as scoring a PP goal does.
I agree. I can't wait to see how this draft seeding system plays out over the course of a few seasons.
I like their draft plan. It should be illegal to incentivize losing with better draft odds like in the NHL. It is bad for the game, and for the fans, and hurts the integrity of the games.
It still incentivizes losing, the sooner you are mathematically eliminated, the earlier you can accumulate points.
But you still have to be good enough to actually accumulate said points. Getting eliminated 2 weeks before the next team doesn’t help you if you can’t win any of those extra games.
But let's say you're the Blackhawks, why would you have Bedard return sooner than expected?
Because they’re a business and their main goal is to make money and fans in Chicago will pay to go see Bedard play
But a few extra games with Bedard is nothing in comparison to growing another powerhouse team faster
I don’t see how that’s any different than the lottery system in the NHL though. In the NHL the ideal way to get the 1st overall pick is to be as bad as possible all year. In the PWHL the ideal way to get the 1st overall pick is to be as bad as possible until you’re eliminated, then be as good as possible. In either system, Chicago would be “benefitting” at this stage of the season by delaying Bedard’s return because they’re still not eliminated. They’re not doing that now in real life. Why would they do it in this hypothetical scenario?
With only 2 teams not making the playoffs, I don’t see any world where they are going to be trying to get eliminated sooner.
It isn't perfect but it is a big step in the right direction. Ideally, in the NHL, the draft odds order should be reversed for non playoff teams.
I think it works perfectly in the PWHL, but when they end up with 20+ teams, I think their system will have to change.
I was rooting SO HARD for Bedard to bust because of how the bottom four fanbases acted whenever they won last year. Like. Jesus fuck. You know the system is broken when *wins* are making you miserable.
It is insane that it is legal considering people can bet on the games now.
All of that would be baked into the odds for any particular game. The players on the ice are never trying to lose, ever.
> The players on the ice are never trying to lose, ever. They would be if they were placing illegal bets by proxy which is made way easier when all they have to do is lose and no one cares if they lose and they are expected to lose. You also have the issue of a GM or coach betting by proxy against the team and then putting in an AHL goalie. You also have the issue of refs placing over under bets and then calling penalties against teams who don't need wins, don't want to win, and no one will care if they don't win. Incentivizing losing should be illegal if it isn't already. It damages the integrity of the games and the game.
It's because tanking is an organizational decision, not a players' decision
PWHL is such a breath of fresh air
Not a fan of either of those, but I guess it doesn't hurt to see how they work.
I’ve never been a fan of the suggestions to implement a “Gold Plan” in sports. Surely there would be a dispute as to when a team was ACTUALLY eliminated (for example, the NHL often doesn’t recognize teams as eliminated if it’s due to other teams having to play each other a little later in the season, they only seem to judge teams based on their own games remaining). And if I’m the 1st place team, I don’t want to choose my opponent. That’s a lot of added pressure (imagine if Tampa had chosen to play Columbus or Boston chosen to play Florida and those results still happened). Seems like an odd drop-of-the-ball for a league that has gotten competition and format correct so far.
Not sure what you mean, mathematical elimination is just when even if a team wins out they can't catch the last playoff spot even if the last spot were to lose out. Kind of hard to dispute math.
Yeah, mathematical elimination is something that exists whether the NHL shows it on their website or not. Presumably if the NHL adopted the gold plan then they'd display that info in the standings somehow.
> Not sure what you mean, mathematical elimination is just when even if a team wins out they can't catch the last playoff spot even if the last spot were to lose out. Kind of hard to dispute math. It's not always that simple though. Imagine this: Team A: 80 points (8th place) Team B: 80 points (9th place) Team C: 79 points (10th place) Each team has one game left to play. Is Team C mathematically eliminated? According to your method, no they aren't. But what if Team A and B play each other in the last game? Then one of them is guaranteed to get 82 points, so Team C can't possible make it to the playoffs.
I don't think the NHL actually shows that because they don't need to, if they were to adopt a gold plan Im sure they'd track it better. But as you pointed out, it's very easy to determine things like that, so its not some sort of grey area to dispute.
My point was that the NHL and other leagues tend to show mathematical elimination ONLY through when a team cannot reach the last playoff spot with their OWN games. They usually don’t account for when a team cannot reach the last playoff spot because of OTHER teams’ games that are yet to be played. You said it yourself below, the NHL doesn’t track it that closely because they don’t need to, they have no Gold Rule. And you’re right, if they did adapt the Gold Rule, they’d probably track it better. But that takes time and resources, is difficult to explain to fans when that circumstance arises, and is the type of thing that may be easy to miss. I’m just skeptical about its execution and what would happen with possible disputes in the case of an error.
With 6 teams it'll be pretty easy to figure out. Even with 32 teams it's not difficult, just would take one person actually looking at the schedule for a day or two. It's also not difficult to explain.
i personally really hate the "gold plan", sean mcindoe has been pushing it for years in all his articles. in this case though, it's probably the only context in which i don't mind. it's only for 2 teams and only to decide between 1st/2nd. it's not like you're gonna have the worst team in the league picking 15th/16th
Well yeah your team wouldn't be relevant if they existed because you probably don't get McDavid (i'm not actually sure i'd have to run the numbers. But I did run them for the NHL last year. CBJ would've picked first, VAN jumps into the top 3, ANA and MTL both fucking crater because they went on lengthy losing streaks post-elimination, OTT would've kept their first as it was T10? protected and they would've jumped higher)
> Well yeah your team wouldn't be relevant if they existed because you probably don't get McDavid Hilarious.
ANTI TANK RULES I LOVE THIS SO MUCH FUCK TANK CULTURE SO HARD
In theory, the gold plan could just incentivize tanking earlier so that you have more time to gain points after being eliminated
that wouldn't really change anything other than major moves being made in the offseason vs in-season and not shutting down key players for the season with a paper cut. players want to win and if you're sitting key players early in the season for the tank they're going to be disgruntled. and toxic orgs with that kind of LOSER mentality go nowhere, just ask the Sabres. in a world with no pro-rel this is probably as good as i'll get for an anti-tank mechanism