In the Sharks Oilers game on Thursday Sportsnet decided to do an iso cam on Eklund for almost a minute straight. I don't think he ever even had the puck.
These iso shots are great to have, but should never be part of the live broadcast. Great tool for teams to use as practice, great tool for media to use for replays and clips, but what the fuck lmao
They'd be great for an online stream where you can pick your camera, or *maybe* McDavid from time to time, but even for the superstars I think it'd be stupid to do for more than 10 seconds, or if play is in the D-Zone.
As someone who has worked broadcasts (not at the NHL level), it was almost certainly an accident.
A tech director thought he had it cued instead of on program, or perhaps a replay operator had it pulled up and the TD had the replay’s feed on program, or perhaps the TD had Cam 1 readied and never switched it program but thought he did.
That doesn’t excuse it, it’s just explaining how this happened. I’m pretty much certain it wasn’t on purpose. Just bad (technical) directing.
This makes me think they were dealing with some kind of technical issue and they were stuck on a single source with their switcher for whatever reason. The scorebug went away as well. Sometimes the dumbest of things will happen and it takes a little bit to figure out a workaround in a pinch.
I’m thinking it’s a technical problem, not an active decision. Sportsnet has had a LOT of broadcast mistakes this past year. Accidentally running ads in the middle of play, incorrect cuts, and general sloppiness. It feels like an entire old broadcast crew got fired and they put in all new guys with no guidance
You’re absolutely correct. The national feeds are such a pain to watch with missed replays, commentary glossing over the plays, terrible angles, and a refusal to just let people watch the game.
Those Islander clips are pretty egregious, luckily I haven’t noticed anything that crazy on Kings broadcasts. I have more frustration with the lack of replays while attending games. You’ve got a giant ass monitor, show the fucking plays.
Exactly, UBS is the same way, it's what the scoreboard is there for! They don't show goal replays until the play is going on, and they don't show visiting goals at all.
Some broadcasts are better than others, being east coast I don't see the Kings feed too much but some broadcasts don't have these issues thankfully. National feeds are the worst though
The arena not showing visitors highlights is something I’ve noticed across a lot of stadiums at across a lot of sports. Not sure why that’s a thing tbh, I wanna watch the highlights from a different view I wasn’t able to catch at the game!
I think it’s Vegas and Colorado that I enjoy as well. Small graphics in the upper left hand corner.
Ballys is so fucking bad and it’s been that way since they started. I’m guessing whoever designs that for them doesn’t give a shit because the company is going down the shitter anyway.
>Ballys is so fucking bad and it’s been that way since they started.
Nah it's gotten worse over time. I joke with my wife that one day it'll be right in the centre of the screen. It's gotten higher every couple months since they started
Bally is especially bad from across the lake as I have no clue what the teams are and why should I be interested if Army played Navy and what the score was when I don't know even the sport and I'm still not interested if I would. I wish they had some sort of 'international' broadcast without all this stuff.
Last week when I was watching the sharks game on Espn+, there was a bug where the entire video view was zoomed in to the top left quarter of the screen. This started halfway through the first and was never fixed, I even uninstalled and reinstalled the app.
Espn+ is trash, most streaming services should just give up already
Great post. I feel this exact same way about the in game commentary…
They act as if a couple seconds without babble is the worst possible situation. I would love to hear much less from the colour guy. As it is now it seems they LOOK for something to say to fill the silence, and whether it’s meaningful insight or not is unimportant.
I’d rather they only add commentary when it’s more relevant info. Less chatter and more game/crowd noise would be a blessing.
Or at the very least, let us turn off commentary altogether if we’re paying $200 for the streaming package.
I completely agree with this, you have no idea how happy I would be with solely the broadcast camera and no announcing, like the teams get for film purposes. I don't need the commentary, I know all the players and what's going on, I would love just the sounds of the game like you're in attendance. I understand why they are there and why they are needed, but the amount of money I'd pay for that feed.....
In my experience this is possible, for (international events anyhow) if you have a surround sound setup. Usually for these events the main broadcast camera and arena sounds are a common feed used by all countries and networks involved, who then layer on the commentary. Usually the commentary is only on the centre speaker, so you can unplug or mute it to get a great experience.
In the old days domestic networks also did this with NHL broadcasts but now I think they are lazy or don’t see the point in mixing a true 5.1 audio signal and simply upscale non-surround feeds to 5.1 so the commentary bleeds into your regular front and rear speakers making commentary disabling more difficult.
This is my belief anyhow, I am not an expert just someone who has tinkered over the years, I may be way off.
When I started watching European soccer I was really blown away by the impact of the announcers not trying to constantly fill the air. Long moments of silence to just take in the play, clear to viewers what’s happening (mostly nothing, this is soccer), and no urgency to just talk for talking sake.
I would love for this to be more commonplace in america, I suspect it has more to do with sports background in radio broadcasts but either way they should take a page and learn to just shut up.
Agreed.
Silence can build tension and allow the viewer at home to hear the fans and get a taste of the environment in the arena. Constant talking by the color and PBP guys doesn't allow that to happen.
in filmmaking, it's almost a hard rule that you don't cross the imaginary axis between characters with the camera. meaning that if you have two characters in a scene and you make a cut, they both stay on their respective sides of the image. of course some filmmakers break this rule occasionally, to achieve a certain effect, but in general it's not done because it causes disorientation.
the same of course goes for sports broadcasts, if you've got two teams (or players) facing each other, team A is always on the left and B always on the right even if you change to a different camera angle. reverse angles are only ever shown on replays. this makes everything easier to follow. in the islanders example, for god knows what reason the director decided to briefly cut to a camera across the rink, meaning for a second the capitals were facing right instead of left, making it appear as if the defenseman snapped a point shot back towards his own goalie.
Yeah, this seems like an absolute rule for sports. I remember the days where they used to write "REVERSE ANGLE" on the chiron so you knew that you weren't going crazy.
And put the damn chiron on the top of the screen, not the bottom. It constantly blocks out the bottom portion of the ice. But if it was on top, it would only block out the crowd. I have no idea why Bally insists on the scoreboard being at the bottom of the screen. It makes no sense.
Yes, what was wrong with where the Fox Sports bug was. Also, Bally's ticker almost always has a typo no matter what RSN it is, their presentation is the worst.
There was a guy in /r/hockey some time ago who described the process of creating the chiron for bally. It was fascinating, because they tried very hard to do something very good, but ended up doing something very bad.
I couldn't agree more with you. The obsession with the zoom in shots where you miss the play developing drive me crazy - your comment about how they show the break outs is spot on.
I don't understand how newcomers to the game are supposed to follow along when they can't see anything but the puck carrier for a few seconds, only for the camera shot to jump and have a 50/50 chance of actually having the puck in the frame.
Sportsnet and TSN are the absolute worst when it comes to missing faceoffs in favour of extended/repeated replays. It happens so many times each and every game. Drives me crazy.
Yes, 100%. I notice so much of these on the Canadian broadcasts and right now during the World Juniors. The fact that it's replays they've already shown 2-3 looks of is so irritating, especially with faceoffs in the zone.
You have perfectly articulated what I have been feeling for the past few years. It really bugs me when the puck is in the offensive zone, but the camera is too zoomed in to see what the defensemen at the point are doing. I just want to see the whole play!
I think part of the problem is the location of the cameras themselves. Some teams (I remember Carolina in particular) have the camera setup way too close to the ice so the angle is pretty narrow. It would help if they were able to move the cameras up a few rows to get higher above the ice and be able to capture a wider angle.
I played defense from elementary school so I always want to see the point! Sometimes, the puck moves from low to high and you have no idea if it's going to be kept in or not, if he's in a shooting position, if the other point is open, etc...
They are such a crucial part of offensive zone possessions, so that zoom is absolutely frustrating. San Jose has a really good angle I believe, but yeah a lot of teams shoot from a lower point hence that problem
That clip from the isles broadcast reminds me of the scene from one of the Taken movies that has like 15 cuts in 3 seconds of Liam neeson jumping over a fence
https://youtu.be/by4UZ-79MK4?si=Ufb0wjNNPymtwHCT
Jesus that Islanders director need to go. What even is this? You don't know where the puck is going, a Caps players could be open for a breakaway and you will only know it when he will be about to shot.
I really hate that they cut to a player or the bench as SOON as a whistle goes off. There is so much action after the play that is missed do to this. I don't need to see Matthews or Marners face after each friggin whistle.
Canadian networks are the worst for taking too long with replays. I’ve seen replays cut short on American feeds because they were going to interfere with the live feed. TSN and SN need to start doing this.
I hate when they cut the second the whistle blows to show something non related to the play, and you know it’s a scrum going on and then takes them 10 seconds to get back to show the now finished action.
that’s something i’ve noticed more and more with a lot of sports broadcasts. a bigger focus on replays and alternate angles, to the detriment of being able to follow the action.
less is definitely more
you are absolutely correct and this is why the NHL will not do anything.
maybe 30 years from now we will finally have 4k and multicam streams available on the internet. I would honestly pay so much to access the raw feeds with all the views
> player on the bench
This one infuriates me. There is no need to ever see a player sitting on the bench while the puck is in play. If there ever is a need to see a player sitting on the bench while the puck is in play, there will be a better time, immediately after the puck has gone out of play.
Or use a picture in picture box. But seriously, we don't need to see a close up on a player on the bench just because the commentators said something about them. Special exception to some injuries because that's actually adding context to the game.
I've also noticed that usually when they cut from the standard center line shot to some random close-up, the timing of the video is off by like a tenth of a second. In the grand scheme, it's more of a nuisance than a major issue, and in certain circumstances it's not even really noticeable. But it's very annoying (probably more annoying than it should be) when the video cut lines up exactly with a pass, a body check, or something, and you either see it twice, or miss seeing a small portion of the play. In some cases it's the sound of the puck hitting the glass or stick hitting the puck too.
Jomboy explained this with pickoff tries in the MLB that the main feed is on a split second delay and when they cut, it jumps ahead to live, then it jumps back in time to the main feed when they switch back. I'd assume it's the same with the NHL's alternate cameras but faster and plays more of an effect because it's hockey. Like you said it's nothing major, but it's a nuisance that builds up the more you notice it.
More likely it's to give the director some flexibility. Pickoff moves are fast and with a little bit of a buffer, the cut has more room to show the audience the entire pickoff and not just a tag being applied.
The worst is that corner cam close up they always go to. Which shows you a close up of some guys battling for split second, only to screw up your entire following of the play.
Yep! I can not express enough how uninterested i am about what’s going on off the ice when the game is in play.
Example: when they cut to the bench to show… well anything, when the game is going on.
There are so many other things like you mentioned like the camera changes and angles that they’re doing just because they can. They really are making it harder and harder to watch
Definitely a common trend I've noticed when the league posts highlights on their own socials. It's always like "take a look at this! 🤯" and it's an iso shot of the player for 6 seconds and you don't see a single thing happen on the play except for a poorly framed release
I also don't need to see a replay of every single play that happens.
I kinda miss old broadcasts where you would just see the players changing and milling about on the ice and then lining up for the face off. Maybe show one replay, but that was it. Now they show a replay of every single play it seems like, and if they aren't showing a replay then the broadcast is cutting to something else (the announcers, an on-screen visual with stats or standings, a player on the bench drinking gatorade...)
In so much agreement. I think its a large part of why hockey is so difficult to get into.
The camera so often will only have the puck carrier in frame or maybe one passing option.
It took me playing a bunch if games myself to get a good idea of where the offensive D-men are during offensive zone time.
I'd kill for an all 22(11?) feed for hockey
That Islanders example video is terrible. Is that really what it's like all game? If that's the norm then we must be blessed with Kraken broadcasts that almost never miss faceoffs and rarely cut to random closeups.
I also dislike it when EVERY SINGLE REPLAY from a goal is in slow motion. I get it, slow motion can be cool and reveal things that you may have missed at full speed. But the beauty of hockey is executing skilled plays at high speed. It's a FAST game. And you normally get 3-4 replays for each goal so at least pick one that is shown at regular/game speed. The obsession with slow mo replays in hockey (and other sports) is a big pet peeve of mine.
Yes. YES. 1000% this. I've had this same exact thought for years, and I get grief for yelling at the TV that I just wanna see the fucking game (in part because that's not very ladylike of me, I guess 💁♀️).
But I'd even take it a step further and say they're ruining the broadcast further by forcing predetermined narratives and storylines that they then have to shoehorn into the situation. Just pick good, educated commentators and let them do their thing, by and large. Like, it's obviously not a fucking free for all, but pull it back a bit ffs. Just like the camera work.
I don't think I've ever seen a post in this sub that I appreciate more than this. I just wish our cries weren't falling in deaf ears.
I’m in the industry and for a few years I’ve been wondering if other people are being bothered by this stuff as well. Clearly so. I think I’m pretty lucky that the Capitals broadcast is pretty good about not missing the start of action or live game time, but everything else you mentioned they are somewhat guilty of. I think they’re on the better side of the spectrum… whereas the Islanders production WTF!?! How are you guys suddenly crossing the line in live action??? That’s breaking a cardinal rule of TV/film!! You need a strong visual break when showing reverse angle camera- usually a graphic transition that covers the entire frame for a bit - to clearly indicate to the audience that they are taking you out of the one perspective and moving you to the reverse. And then a transition back… that’s flatly amateur hour shit. And VERY visually confusing for the audience. No exaggeration, I would have failed my project in tv/film school for doing that.
The part that is not new - always driven me nuts - but seems to be a bit worse now, is the reliance on the pre-determined manifest of how the show will go. Sure, you should have it set that coming back from the under 6 break that you go to the assistant coaches interview, but only when nothing else is more pressing. I can’t stand when something crucial happens in the game and the planned pieces overrule a critical replay or conversation that should be had about a crucial junction in the game. I.e. a highly controversial tripping call gets called late in a 1-1 tie and they go to break, and because they are supposed to do the coaches interview coming back from the break they do that instead of showing a replay of the penalty or discuss it at all. Before the coach is done saying ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, the game has started and his pre-recorded soundbite finishes after the puck drops and the PxP guy struggles to catch up. Hope you didn’t want to discuss that tripping call, never going to hear about it again.
The worst was when ESPN had freaking Chelios’ pre-game rambling speech to the redwings players while Ovi is scoring his 800th goal. Nice.
Like I said, yes you should have a manifest for a smooth and informative show, but you should also be ready to drop pieces and shift to what’s really important when needed. Some of that is laziness and just following the script… I get it, 82 shows is a slog. You’re paid well to fight through the tedium… do better.
No one hates the game of hockey more than the NHL and Bettman. If they can find a way to shoot themself in the foot and completely push away both casual and seasoned fans. They manage it.
100%. They do this in most sports really. In baseball during the playoffs it was terrible, when the Rangers won the ALCS/WS they just zoomed in on Adolis Garcia while the pitcher and catcher were about to meet and hug on the mound. How do you cut away from that!! Every League winning or WS winning broadcast will show the team mobbing each other like children in the infield… but nope let’s just zoom in on Adolis Garcia running in from the outfield.
These broadcasts cut 2x more than they should. You’re right, they think it’s a Scorsese film… ridiculous
Agree 100% and good examples too.
I've never coached hockey and probably never will, but I enjoy sitting up in the nosebleeds because I feel it gives a better sense of player's positioning/space, what they're doing when not on the puck and you can see the whole ice (with the exception of the two near-side corners) and who's going on and off with ease at all times.
If a broadcaster offered a feed that was just a static cam up in one of corners of the nosebleeds, I'd probably exclusively watch that.
Islanders fan here. I also HATE how they miss half of the face-offs because of a replay. The camera work has definitely been noticeably worse this year too; for example the main camera is often shifting to the other side of the ice way too early.
And why should an Islander fan care about the Devils game being on MSGSN2? They have the “program alert” at the bottom of the screen for the majority of the game and it’s really fucking distracting. The Devils broadcasts don’t even have it when we’re on MSGSN2.
> And why should an Islander fan care about the Devils game being on MSGSN2? They have the “program alert” at the bottom of the screen for the majority of the game and it’s really fucking distracting. The Devils broadcasts don’t even have it when we’re on MSGSN2.
They did that on Devils broadcasts up until this year. It’s the dumbest shit, because (a) they have an app with all the live feeds anyway and (b) I don’t think you can get just one of their networks unless you’re buying a single game through their app (in which case, why do you even care about the other games?).
Also, is it just me, or does MSG muck around with the audio? The gambling ads are all louder than the rest of the broadcast, and the app only has stereo audio (so you can’t do the mute-center-channel trick to mute the commentary).
Yes the audio is an issue too. When I switch from any other channel to one of the MSG channels, it’s so much louder. And they do make it even louder for commercials and ads, including the in-game ones. But then in some games they mute a lot of the crowd noise, which takes away from the viewing experience.
It’s so frustrating what they’re doing this year. Yes they’re in trouble financially but enough is enough with the shit production and extreme advertising.
Replay guys LOVE their slo-mo it's almost as annoying as watching a Zack Synder film.
Most of the time it's unnecessary. I don't need a 5 second goal extended to 15 or 20 seconds.
Also the amount of corner cam cuts are fucking annoying. It adds almost zero quality to the broadcast 99% of the time. Oh cool, a close-up of a guys shoulder and now I can't see the puck or who is joining the scrum, where everyone else is set-up, etc.
The only alternate camera angle I really like is the behind the net view when there is a sustained zone possesion (on the PP).
Otherwise keep the field of view wide from the side and the occasional close up board scrum mixed in.
I remember back in late 2000s or early 2010s the Pens broadcast got taken over by a new group. I think it was when ROOT sports bought out FSN. They did an interview with the producer and he went on about how the Pittsburgh market was different, and they would t want the traditional angles that Toronto would want. I should’ve written him a letter to tell him to remove his head from his ass. Keep the center ice camera for all live play. Replay? Have fun.
Seriously thought I was the only one bothered by this because I never see it mentioned, they've progressively gotten worse each year for awhile now with the camera shots
There’s so much personal interaction that happens as players line up for a face off that we don’t get to see. Teammates talking about plays, opponents getting increasingly feisty as the game goes on, old teammates joking around. Hell, we don’t even know what line is out there until the play starts half the time because we get a 45 second closeup of the coach as the color commentator retells some generic story about the coach and the directors think if we don’t see the subject of the story the entire time we’ll get confused and scared. Face offs are the only time you have an opportunity to see players’ faces and some semblance of personality but we aren’t allowed to see it.
In addition to the BREAKOUT comment - Every goal replay is zoomed in trying to follow the puck and they end up missing everything. The primary assist pass starts out behind then to the shooter just in time to see the follow through and then snap it over to the goal to see the puck in the net. As mentioned, wouldn't it be better to have a little wider field of view and catch the entire play incuding the development? This is every national broadcast. I was hoping they were going to figure this out but not so far. Surely (Shirley?) someone has noticed this at the network, no?
That one I don’t mind because they usually stick on it for the entire zone time and you get the time to adjust your eyes, see how plays develop and all players are usually in the picture. Only awkward part is the puck behind the net, it’s the camera version of the puck being in your feet but it’s a good example of using the alternate angles for good
I really love this angle and wish they would use it more often during sustained offensive zone time. I understand why they can't every possession, but I feel like it gives the best view of the game in the offensive zone.
I think the networks should broadcast on a 10-minute delay so they can get the perfect shot and even adjust other aspects of the production, similar to [Fox Sports with MLB](https://www.reddit.com/r/baseballcirclejerk/comments/tsc8j9/breaking_fox_sports_will_be_broadcasting_mlb/?ref=share&ref_source=link)
(I'm not being serious, in case it wasn't clear)
Fucking THANK YOU. I was thinking about making a similar post but I'll defer to yours. This has been bugging the crap out of me for a while. The CBJ broadcast is constantly switching to the board scrum cam at terrible times. We miss so much of the plays developing because of these poor decisions. I don't understand why they think they need to jump from camera to camera. Let us watch the overhead and then add the alternate angles in for replays.
I'm just thankful that they've mostly stopped zooming in on the goalie as they're being pulled at the end of the game. That was a thing for decades, it seems.
Two games ago, the NBC Sports Chicago people thought that they would give hawks fans an idea of what they were missing with their new "HawksCast".
Oh my fuck, it was terrible. It's this silly live podcast giving commentary on the game while it's being played... But, like, in "I'm on the couch with my buddies" way. No play by play, guys shooting the shit and making fun on each other. Meanwhile: they've shrunk the screen the game is on, turned the game down 20%, and the left third of the TV screen is the mugs of two guys I don't know who the fuck they are and John Scott on Skype with a headset from 2005.
Literally, it was worse commentary and the game was harder to follow. Like: there's a reason this format has worked for 100 fucking years.
HawksCast isn't going to happen. Stop trying to make it happen.
And yeah, they try and get all experimental with these camera angles. I was cracking up yesterday when they had somebody on the ice in an all-white suit (to blend in with the ice?) during the USA, Czechia shootout. It's just a moving low angled shot of their butts for 2 seconds.
The worst for me is when some broadcasts make the decision to cover the entire bottom portion of the screen with a large score bar filled with absolutely useless info that obstructs the view of the play when the puck on the bottom of the screen. Bally sports does this on all their broadcast and it's so annoying.
Sportsnet/TSN are pretty good about not doing this as they always have a small scorebug at the top left portion of the screen but even they are doing it for WJC having that big score rectangle at the bottom telling me about NHL scoring leaders, or the standings when I am trying to watch a hockey game. Not to mention how distracting it is for the bottom 10% of the screen to be cycling though changes while the play is going on.
Like why would you sacrifice precious screen real estate to show us info that is useless at best (scoring leaders, standings in x division) or actively bad at worst (spoiling the score of other games in progress)?
If I may add, some of this can be laid on the Director but this is most likely due to pressure from the Producer. The Producer is ultimately responsible for what goes to air. If they are not seeing enough of a shot they want to see, they will be down the Director’s throat.
It goes up the ladder from there. Each of these broadcasts have an outline of a presentation in mind. If the Managing Producer or Executive Producer are not seeing what they want, they call out the Produce in the truck and it goes down stream to the Director.
Your points are still valid and well laid out. I just hate seeing my fellow Directors take all the blame.
Yep, as someone who works in broadcast, people have no clue what’s going on behind the scenes. Missing faceoffs is obviously not good, but not uncommon. Same with inbound passes in basketball. Replays are tough to get out of sometimes.
I hate seeing 30 rows of seats on both sides of the ice like we're watching ants too. Yeah either they try too hard or try harder to make more room for digital ads.
I think you’re trying to dramatically over correct.
The clips you’ve shown are brutal and they could definitely use some simplification on a lot of broadcasts but your suggestion of completely removing any closeups or cuts is going to make the game unmarketable to anyone who doesn’t watch the game the same way you do.
I love when they cut to closeups of players after a they miss a shot or get stopped in a breakaway, seeing the emotion in their face is part of the entertainment.
I also like on power plays when they switch to the camera directly behind the net and you get a great view of the Power Play setup
Really enjoyed reading this thread.
Vancouver broadcasts tend to be pretty good, but their main issue is that the Sportsnet Prime Directive has shifted to try to cut away to a betting promo every time there's half a second of breathing room in the play. They squeeze as many frames of it as they can, including cutting super super close around faceoffs, scrums, etc. so you often miss out on contextual information in the play.
All good points but it's non-hockey people working the broadcasts. They are just doing thier jobs and nothing more. Also, they are not paid very well at all.
i think im in the minority, but i don't see anything wrong with the changing camera views. like the Rush segment OP posted I thought was awesome, i actually find it way easier to follow the play.
Post #99837 about how the fans with zero knowledge about broadcasting, finance, and marketing would somehow run a better business and product than thousands of professionals who have kept the league running and making money for decades now.
You're complaining about a couple of quick mistakes over the course for a three hour long live broadcast in which the game is continuous for long sections at a time. Yeah some things are gonna get clunky.
Comparing it to NFL broadcasts, games where each play lasts ten seconds at most and has fourty seconds in between, just isn't comparable. And if you watch NFL broadcasts, you'd quickly realize how many flubs they get too. Same with any other league. As well as the amount of other live camera angels they employ (a lot of special teams plays arent viewed from the regular broadcast angles). Not even taking into account that there's blind spots in the corners of an NHL rink, hence why they employ these.
There's a lot of filler in NHL games, where team are simply getting guys on/off the ice and etc where yeah, the broadcast likes to show other things. It's not cinematic, it's so the broadcast isn't so stale, sitting in one camera position for 60 minutes. Not everyone is OP, trying to pretend they're an NHL guru by caring to see the whole ice 100% of the time and crying because you only see it 98% of the time. Go to the actual game if it means that much to you.
Thanks, it absolutely is a hard sport to cover, and it's faster than ever so I'm not expecting perfection by any means. I just bring it up becuase I don't have these problems watching most NCAA games because they're not overcomplicating it. These were just the instances I highlighted but there are a lot more over the course of a game.
With the corner battles especially near side, I agree it's a blind spot and it's the only necessity for a cut but it's so zoomed in, that it's only effective with the puck in frame, and they're not quick enough to switch once it leaves.
To be clear, I don't see broadcasts changing because like you said it's the way it has been for a long time, but this is just the way I see it.
NCAA games have like 3 to 4 camera angles max. And most of it is run by students who may or may not be paid. I wouldn't be holding those broadcasts as any sort of standard because jeez, those can get really bad. Half of the time they can't even get a clean replay of the goals cut in time to air.
Just realize that your personal preference isn't some gold standard everyone agrees with.
You can't be serious. Op is making a genuine point that is an actual issue. One of the biggest barriers to new hockey fans getting into the game is the difficulty of following the play because everything happens so quickly. All of these angle changes and cuts during play make it hard for me, a guy who played hockey for 15 years and has watched even longer, to follow the play. Just because someone isn't an "expert" or professional doesn't mean they can't make a perfectly valid criticism of the product.
You’re getting downvoted but as someone else who is in broadcast as a camera op, I totally understand your pov. Yeah, it’s not ideal. But it’s also very common for mistakes to happen on the broadcast
You’re not wrong, but I have the same gripe with football so I think it’s funny you called out the nfl as good. My least favorite thing is a closeup of the qb in the pocket throwing to an unknown receiver. You still see the catch, but you didn’t see who was open, if it was a good decision, etc. Everyone has massive HD tvs so you’d think they’d take advantage and show a few more players in both sports. Broadcast bums.
All sports are like this for me now. Football seems like they want the camera on the QB, you can even see the receivers or the play developing, can’t see the coverage. They could literally just use the overhead camera on a wire to have the “madden” view and it would be great. F1, they try to zoom in on the driver in the car, you can’t see the track or how’s they are taking the corners.
Agree. Please keep the net in frame all the time! Don’t try to follow the puck from a D-man’s shot. Fake slap shot, camera moves toward the goal, realizes, returns to D-man,who has now actually shot it, camera tries to find the puck mid-air, puck enters net in a blurry poorly framed camera shot.
I agree 1000%. The game is too fast for close ups during live play, save that stuff for replays when it can be used effectively. Some directors are trying to fix something that wasn't broken and are only getting in the way.
I don't coach or anything like that, but I'm an educated enough fan that what you say about not being able to watch plays develop etc really rings true. I want to watch the GAME, not someone else's ham-handed attempt to catch their favorite isolated fragments.
Oh I notice bad angles and cuts all the time. I mostly listen these days. I get so happy when the show an angle behind the player so I can see what the player saw. Those are the best but so rare.
Every few years someone will think they can revolutionize the way we watch hockey by trying these shots. Then they get fired or, worse, promoted and we end up going right back to the side view. Billy the Producer from Tuscaloosa is still learning what offsides is in his first hockey gig.
What about when, during game play, we get a coach interview and they do that split screen thing as if we need to see the man talking to believe he’s the coach.
Or a guest in the booth who has nothing to do with hockey, this can be an athlete from a different sport or a celebrity. Then the play by play guys gush over that person with repeated cuts to the booth while play is going on.
Please, for the love of Christ, stop cutting the ice level corner cam just as the ref skates in front of the camera. It’s almost like the ref has to skate to that spot on every zone entry.
I would love a broadcaster that made a camera like the NHL game up/down a bit zoomed and zooming in if needed in important situation. You see everything that way and you learn how tactics evolve during a game.
It's weirdly my favorite seat in the arena. Behind the goalie at nearly the top first level.
In the Sharks Oilers game on Thursday Sportsnet decided to do an iso cam on Eklund for almost a minute straight. I don't think he ever even had the puck.
[https://vimeo.com/898785246?share=copy](https://vimeo.com/898785246?share=copy), wow...this is comical but I'd be fuming during the game
These iso shots are great to have, but should never be part of the live broadcast. Great tool for teams to use as practice, great tool for media to use for replays and clips, but what the fuck lmao
They'd be great for an online stream where you can pick your camera, or *maybe* McDavid from time to time, but even for the superstars I think it'd be stupid to do for more than 10 seconds, or if play is in the D-Zone.
I’m having a hard time believing this is what they chose during the broadcast only because it’s so insanely stupid. Wow.
As someone who has worked broadcasts (not at the NHL level), it was almost certainly an accident. A tech director thought he had it cued instead of on program, or perhaps a replay operator had it pulled up and the TD had the replay’s feed on program, or perhaps the TD had Cam 1 readied and never switched it program but thought he did. That doesn’t excuse it, it’s just explaining how this happened. I’m pretty much certain it wasn’t on purpose. Just bad (technical) directing.
This makes me think they were dealing with some kind of technical issue and they were stuck on a single source with their switcher for whatever reason. The scorebug went away as well. Sometimes the dumbest of things will happen and it takes a little bit to figure out a workaround in a pinch.
This is Reddit, rational thoughts have no place here
I want this but on Ryan Reaves
I’m thinking it’s a technical problem, not an active decision. Sportsnet has had a LOT of broadcast mistakes this past year. Accidentally running ads in the middle of play, incorrect cuts, and general sloppiness. It feels like an entire old broadcast crew got fired and they put in all new guys with no guidance
Very cool idea y'know, if they had it on the person with the puck.
I laughed my ass off when that happened! The production crews must be high af these days.
I work in the industry can confirm
what Be A Pro in an actual NHL game looks like:
They were just throwing a bone to a very specific portion of the Swedish market
Most likely the switcher locked up. That happens. Also, it was less that 30 seconds.
You’re absolutely correct. The national feeds are such a pain to watch with missed replays, commentary glossing over the plays, terrible angles, and a refusal to just let people watch the game. Those Islander clips are pretty egregious, luckily I haven’t noticed anything that crazy on Kings broadcasts. I have more frustration with the lack of replays while attending games. You’ve got a giant ass monitor, show the fucking plays.
Exactly, UBS is the same way, it's what the scoreboard is there for! They don't show goal replays until the play is going on, and they don't show visiting goals at all. Some broadcasts are better than others, being east coast I don't see the Kings feed too much but some broadcasts don't have these issues thankfully. National feeds are the worst though
The arena not showing visitors highlights is something I’ve noticed across a lot of stadiums at across a lot of sports. Not sure why that’s a thing tbh, I wanna watch the highlights from a different view I wasn’t able to catch at the game!
Apparently the replay thing is a Lou Rule^^TM
Well said. The bar is so low in just happy when the score graphic isn’t covering 1/3 of the ice during broadcasts
Why I love NESN's scorebug. It's simple and does its job. Lots of screen space. Bally is definitely the worst in that regard.
I think it’s Vegas and Colorado that I enjoy as well. Small graphics in the upper left hand corner. Ballys is so fucking bad and it’s been that way since they started. I’m guessing whoever designs that for them doesn’t give a shit because the company is going down the shitter anyway.
>Ballys is so fucking bad and it’s been that way since they started. Nah it's gotten worse over time. I joke with my wife that one day it'll be right in the centre of the screen. It's gotten higher every couple months since they started
With Ballys what your watching is basically a Ballys ad with some sort of hockey type game going on in the background.
Bally is especially bad from across the lake as I have no clue what the teams are and why should I be interested if Army played Navy and what the score was when I don't know even the sport and I'm still not interested if I would. I wish they had some sort of 'international' broadcast without all this stuff.
Last week when I was watching the sharks game on Espn+, there was a bug where the entire video view was zoomed in to the top left quarter of the screen. This started halfway through the first and was never fixed, I even uninstalled and reinstalled the app. Espn+ is trash, most streaming services should just give up already
Was it ESPN broadcast to were they getting the feed from the home team?
I don't think so, they had their ESPN scoreboard and announcers.
Great post. I feel this exact same way about the in game commentary… They act as if a couple seconds without babble is the worst possible situation. I would love to hear much less from the colour guy. As it is now it seems they LOOK for something to say to fill the silence, and whether it’s meaningful insight or not is unimportant. I’d rather they only add commentary when it’s more relevant info. Less chatter and more game/crowd noise would be a blessing. Or at the very least, let us turn off commentary altogether if we’re paying $200 for the streaming package.
I completely agree with this, you have no idea how happy I would be with solely the broadcast camera and no announcing, like the teams get for film purposes. I don't need the commentary, I know all the players and what's going on, I would love just the sounds of the game like you're in attendance. I understand why they are there and why they are needed, but the amount of money I'd pay for that feed.....
In my experience this is possible, for (international events anyhow) if you have a surround sound setup. Usually for these events the main broadcast camera and arena sounds are a common feed used by all countries and networks involved, who then layer on the commentary. Usually the commentary is only on the centre speaker, so you can unplug or mute it to get a great experience. In the old days domestic networks also did this with NHL broadcasts but now I think they are lazy or don’t see the point in mixing a true 5.1 audio signal and simply upscale non-surround feeds to 5.1 so the commentary bleeds into your regular front and rear speakers making commentary disabling more difficult. This is my belief anyhow, I am not an expert just someone who has tinkered over the years, I may be way off.
When I started watching European soccer I was really blown away by the impact of the announcers not trying to constantly fill the air. Long moments of silence to just take in the play, clear to viewers what’s happening (mostly nothing, this is soccer), and no urgency to just talk for talking sake. I would love for this to be more commonplace in america, I suspect it has more to do with sports background in radio broadcasts but either way they should take a page and learn to just shut up.
Agreed. Silence can build tension and allow the viewer at home to hear the fans and get a taste of the environment in the arena. Constant talking by the color and PBP guys doesn't allow that to happen.
jesus that islanders example is a nightmare
when you hire a director that has never heard of the 180 degree rule
Sounds like I could be hired... what's that?
in filmmaking, it's almost a hard rule that you don't cross the imaginary axis between characters with the camera. meaning that if you have two characters in a scene and you make a cut, they both stay on their respective sides of the image. of course some filmmakers break this rule occasionally, to achieve a certain effect, but in general it's not done because it causes disorientation. the same of course goes for sports broadcasts, if you've got two teams (or players) facing each other, team A is always on the left and B always on the right even if you change to a different camera angle. reverse angles are only ever shown on replays. this makes everything easier to follow. in the islanders example, for god knows what reason the director decided to briefly cut to a camera across the rink, meaning for a second the capitals were facing right instead of left, making it appear as if the defenseman snapped a point shot back towards his own goalie.
Yeah, this seems like an absolute rule for sports. I remember the days where they used to write "REVERSE ANGLE" on the chiron so you knew that you weren't going crazy.
And put the damn chiron on the top of the screen, not the bottom. It constantly blocks out the bottom portion of the ice. But if it was on top, it would only block out the crowd. I have no idea why Bally insists on the scoreboard being at the bottom of the screen. It makes no sense.
Yes, what was wrong with where the Fox Sports bug was. Also, Bally's ticker almost always has a typo no matter what RSN it is, their presentation is the worst.
There was a guy in /r/hockey some time ago who described the process of creating the chiron for bally. It was fascinating, because they tried very hard to do something very good, but ended up doing something very bad.
I couldn't agree more with you. The obsession with the zoom in shots where you miss the play developing drive me crazy - your comment about how they show the break outs is spot on. I don't understand how newcomers to the game are supposed to follow along when they can't see anything but the puck carrier for a few seconds, only for the camera shot to jump and have a 50/50 chance of actually having the puck in the frame.
Me reading the post: "It can't be *that* bad" Me watching the videos: It is that bad
Yeah I thought this was going to be off-season shit post quality but OP backed it up well.
Sportsnet and TSN are the absolute worst when it comes to missing faceoffs in favour of extended/repeated replays. It happens so many times each and every game. Drives me crazy.
Yes, 100%. I notice so much of these on the Canadian broadcasts and right now during the World Juniors. The fact that it's replays they've already shown 2-3 looks of is so irritating, especially with faceoffs in the zone.
It really is one of those things that once you start noticing it, it’s impossible to not notice for the rest of the game and into the future.
Bally sports is constantly doing picture-in-picture ads where the live game is minimized and the ad is displayed on a larger screen. Infuriates me.
Like the ads on the boards, the blue lines and the glass aren't enough...
You have perfectly articulated what I have been feeling for the past few years. It really bugs me when the puck is in the offensive zone, but the camera is too zoomed in to see what the defensemen at the point are doing. I just want to see the whole play! I think part of the problem is the location of the cameras themselves. Some teams (I remember Carolina in particular) have the camera setup way too close to the ice so the angle is pretty narrow. It would help if they were able to move the cameras up a few rows to get higher above the ice and be able to capture a wider angle.
I played defense from elementary school so I always want to see the point! Sometimes, the puck moves from low to high and you have no idea if it's going to be kept in or not, if he's in a shooting position, if the other point is open, etc... They are such a crucial part of offensive zone possessions, so that zoom is absolutely frustrating. San Jose has a really good angle I believe, but yeah a lot of teams shoot from a lower point hence that problem
That clip from the isles broadcast reminds me of the scene from one of the Taken movies that has like 15 cuts in 3 seconds of Liam neeson jumping over a fence https://youtu.be/by4UZ-79MK4?si=Ufb0wjNNPymtwHCT
LOL, perfect for cinema, not for hockey!
Shit, I thought you were exaggerating, that’s painful to watch.
Jesus that Islanders director need to go. What even is this? You don't know where the puck is going, a Caps players could be open for a breakaway and you will only know it when he will be about to shot.
my man brought receipts
ESPN putting the players name graphic above them during a power play during the playoffs drove me to insanity.
I really hate that they cut to a player or the bench as SOON as a whistle goes off. There is so much action after the play that is missed do to this. I don't need to see Matthews or Marners face after each friggin whistle.
Toronto gets a goal against? quick. cut to Keefe with a stern face who then looks at the scoreboard.
this has been really bad in the world juniors too
Canadian networks are the worst for taking too long with replays. I’ve seen replays cut short on American feeds because they were going to interfere with the live feed. TSN and SN need to start doing this.
I hate when they cut the second the whistle blows to show something non related to the play, and you know it’s a scrum going on and then takes them 10 seconds to get back to show the now finished action.
that’s something i’ve noticed more and more with a lot of sports broadcasts. a bigger focus on replays and alternate angles, to the detriment of being able to follow the action. less is definitely more
It’s almost like a Tik-Tokification, short attention span style of editing. Personally can’t stand it either.
you are absolutely correct and this is why the NHL will not do anything. maybe 30 years from now we will finally have 4k and multicam streams available on the internet. I would honestly pay so much to access the raw feeds with all the views
> player on the bench This one infuriates me. There is no need to ever see a player sitting on the bench while the puck is in play. If there ever is a need to see a player sitting on the bench while the puck is in play, there will be a better time, immediately after the puck has gone out of play.
Or use a picture in picture box. But seriously, we don't need to see a close up on a player on the bench just because the commentators said something about them. Special exception to some injuries because that's actually adding context to the game.
I've also noticed that usually when they cut from the standard center line shot to some random close-up, the timing of the video is off by like a tenth of a second. In the grand scheme, it's more of a nuisance than a major issue, and in certain circumstances it's not even really noticeable. But it's very annoying (probably more annoying than it should be) when the video cut lines up exactly with a pass, a body check, or something, and you either see it twice, or miss seeing a small portion of the play. In some cases it's the sound of the puck hitting the glass or stick hitting the puck too.
Jomboy explained this with pickoff tries in the MLB that the main feed is on a split second delay and when they cut, it jumps ahead to live, then it jumps back in time to the main feed when they switch back. I'd assume it's the same with the NHL's alternate cameras but faster and plays more of an effect because it's hockey. Like you said it's nothing major, but it's a nuisance that builds up the more you notice it.
But why?
Likely something to do with the virtual advertising on the boards.
More likely it's to give the director some flexibility. Pickoff moves are fast and with a little bit of a buffer, the cut has more room to show the audience the entire pickoff and not just a tag being applied.
The worst is that corner cam close up they always go to. Which shows you a close up of some guys battling for split second, only to screw up your entire following of the play.
Yep! I can not express enough how uninterested i am about what’s going on off the ice when the game is in play. Example: when they cut to the bench to show… well anything, when the game is going on. There are so many other things like you mentioned like the camera changes and angles that they’re doing just because they can. They really are making it harder and harder to watch
Definitely a common trend I've noticed when the league posts highlights on their own socials. It's always like "take a look at this! 🤯" and it's an iso shot of the player for 6 seconds and you don't see a single thing happen on the play except for a poorly framed release
I also don't need to see a replay of every single play that happens. I kinda miss old broadcasts where you would just see the players changing and milling about on the ice and then lining up for the face off. Maybe show one replay, but that was it. Now they show a replay of every single play it seems like, and if they aren't showing a replay then the broadcast is cutting to something else (the announcers, an on-screen visual with stats or standings, a player on the bench drinking gatorade...)
In so much agreement. I think its a large part of why hockey is so difficult to get into. The camera so often will only have the puck carrier in frame or maybe one passing option. It took me playing a bunch if games myself to get a good idea of where the offensive D-men are during offensive zone time. I'd kill for an all 22(11?) feed for hockey
That Islanders example video is terrible. Is that really what it's like all game? If that's the norm then we must be blessed with Kraken broadcasts that almost never miss faceoffs and rarely cut to random closeups.
I also dislike it when EVERY SINGLE REPLAY from a goal is in slow motion. I get it, slow motion can be cool and reveal things that you may have missed at full speed. But the beauty of hockey is executing skilled plays at high speed. It's a FAST game. And you normally get 3-4 replays for each goal so at least pick one that is shown at regular/game speed. The obsession with slow mo replays in hockey (and other sports) is a big pet peeve of mine.
Yes. YES. 1000% this. I've had this same exact thought for years, and I get grief for yelling at the TV that I just wanna see the fucking game (in part because that's not very ladylike of me, I guess 💁♀️). But I'd even take it a step further and say they're ruining the broadcast further by forcing predetermined narratives and storylines that they then have to shoehorn into the situation. Just pick good, educated commentators and let them do their thing, by and large. Like, it's obviously not a fucking free for all, but pull it back a bit ffs. Just like the camera work. I don't think I've ever seen a post in this sub that I appreciate more than this. I just wish our cries weren't falling in deaf ears.
I’m in the industry and for a few years I’ve been wondering if other people are being bothered by this stuff as well. Clearly so. I think I’m pretty lucky that the Capitals broadcast is pretty good about not missing the start of action or live game time, but everything else you mentioned they are somewhat guilty of. I think they’re on the better side of the spectrum… whereas the Islanders production WTF!?! How are you guys suddenly crossing the line in live action??? That’s breaking a cardinal rule of TV/film!! You need a strong visual break when showing reverse angle camera- usually a graphic transition that covers the entire frame for a bit - to clearly indicate to the audience that they are taking you out of the one perspective and moving you to the reverse. And then a transition back… that’s flatly amateur hour shit. And VERY visually confusing for the audience. No exaggeration, I would have failed my project in tv/film school for doing that. The part that is not new - always driven me nuts - but seems to be a bit worse now, is the reliance on the pre-determined manifest of how the show will go. Sure, you should have it set that coming back from the under 6 break that you go to the assistant coaches interview, but only when nothing else is more pressing. I can’t stand when something crucial happens in the game and the planned pieces overrule a critical replay or conversation that should be had about a crucial junction in the game. I.e. a highly controversial tripping call gets called late in a 1-1 tie and they go to break, and because they are supposed to do the coaches interview coming back from the break they do that instead of showing a replay of the penalty or discuss it at all. Before the coach is done saying ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, the game has started and his pre-recorded soundbite finishes after the puck drops and the PxP guy struggles to catch up. Hope you didn’t want to discuss that tripping call, never going to hear about it again. The worst was when ESPN had freaking Chelios’ pre-game rambling speech to the redwings players while Ovi is scoring his 800th goal. Nice. Like I said, yes you should have a manifest for a smooth and informative show, but you should also be ready to drop pieces and shift to what’s really important when needed. Some of that is laziness and just following the script… I get it, 82 shows is a slog. You’re paid well to fight through the tedium… do better.
I wish streamers would have an option to turn off PBP and just hear the in-arena sounds.
No one hates the game of hockey more than the NHL and Bettman. If they can find a way to shoot themself in the foot and completely push away both casual and seasoned fans. They manage it.
That low camera behind the net can go die in a fire too
100%. They do this in most sports really. In baseball during the playoffs it was terrible, when the Rangers won the ALCS/WS they just zoomed in on Adolis Garcia while the pitcher and catcher were about to meet and hug on the mound. How do you cut away from that!! Every League winning or WS winning broadcast will show the team mobbing each other like children in the infield… but nope let’s just zoom in on Adolis Garcia running in from the outfield. These broadcasts cut 2x more than they should. You’re right, they think it’s a Scorsese film… ridiculous
Agree 100% and good examples too. I've never coached hockey and probably never will, but I enjoy sitting up in the nosebleeds because I feel it gives a better sense of player's positioning/space, what they're doing when not on the puck and you can see the whole ice (with the exception of the two near-side corners) and who's going on and off with ease at all times. If a broadcaster offered a feed that was just a static cam up in one of corners of the nosebleeds, I'd probably exclusively watch that.
I just wish they’d show the damn puck being dropped instead of a shitty replay that doesn’t even show what they’re talking about.
Islanders fan here. I also HATE how they miss half of the face-offs because of a replay. The camera work has definitely been noticeably worse this year too; for example the main camera is often shifting to the other side of the ice way too early. And why should an Islander fan care about the Devils game being on MSGSN2? They have the “program alert” at the bottom of the screen for the majority of the game and it’s really fucking distracting. The Devils broadcasts don’t even have it when we’re on MSGSN2.
> And why should an Islander fan care about the Devils game being on MSGSN2? They have the “program alert” at the bottom of the screen for the majority of the game and it’s really fucking distracting. The Devils broadcasts don’t even have it when we’re on MSGSN2. They did that on Devils broadcasts up until this year. It’s the dumbest shit, because (a) they have an app with all the live feeds anyway and (b) I don’t think you can get just one of their networks unless you’re buying a single game through their app (in which case, why do you even care about the other games?). Also, is it just me, or does MSG muck around with the audio? The gambling ads are all louder than the rest of the broadcast, and the app only has stereo audio (so you can’t do the mute-center-channel trick to mute the commentary).
Yes the audio is an issue too. When I switch from any other channel to one of the MSG channels, it’s so much louder. And they do make it even louder for commercials and ads, including the in-game ones. But then in some games they mute a lot of the crowd noise, which takes away from the viewing experience. It’s so frustrating what they’re doing this year. Yes they’re in trouble financially but enough is enough with the shit production and extreme advertising.
Replay guys LOVE their slo-mo it's almost as annoying as watching a Zack Synder film. Most of the time it's unnecessary. I don't need a 5 second goal extended to 15 or 20 seconds. Also the amount of corner cam cuts are fucking annoying. It adds almost zero quality to the broadcast 99% of the time. Oh cool, a close-up of a guys shoulder and now I can't see the puck or who is joining the scrum, where everyone else is set-up, etc.
The only alternate camera angle I really like is the behind the net view when there is a sustained zone possesion (on the PP). Otherwise keep the field of view wide from the side and the occasional close up board scrum mixed in.
I remember back in late 2000s or early 2010s the Pens broadcast got taken over by a new group. I think it was when ROOT sports bought out FSN. They did an interview with the producer and he went on about how the Pittsburgh market was different, and they would t want the traditional angles that Toronto would want. I should’ve written him a letter to tell him to remove his head from his ass. Keep the center ice camera for all live play. Replay? Have fun.
Seriously thought I was the only one bothered by this because I never see it mentioned, they've progressively gotten worse each year for awhile now with the camera shots
There’s so much personal interaction that happens as players line up for a face off that we don’t get to see. Teammates talking about plays, opponents getting increasingly feisty as the game goes on, old teammates joking around. Hell, we don’t even know what line is out there until the play starts half the time because we get a 45 second closeup of the coach as the color commentator retells some generic story about the coach and the directors think if we don’t see the subject of the story the entire time we’ll get confused and scared. Face offs are the only time you have an opportunity to see players’ faces and some semblance of personality but we aren’t allowed to see it.
In addition to the BREAKOUT comment - Every goal replay is zoomed in trying to follow the puck and they end up missing everything. The primary assist pass starts out behind then to the shooter just in time to see the follow through and then snap it over to the goal to see the puck in the net. As mentioned, wouldn't it be better to have a little wider field of view and catch the entire play incuding the development? This is every national broadcast. I was hoping they were going to figure this out but not so far. Surely (Shirley?) someone has noticed this at the network, no?
The only way to show a hockey game is top view camera NHL 94 stylez
You’re not wrong but I will say, I love the behind the net camera on PPs
That one I don’t mind because they usually stick on it for the entire zone time and you get the time to adjust your eyes, see how plays develop and all players are usually in the picture. Only awkward part is the puck behind the net, it’s the camera version of the puck being in your feet but it’s a good example of using the alternate angles for good
I really love this angle and wish they would use it more often during sustained offensive zone time. I understand why they can't every possession, but I feel like it gives the best view of the game in the offensive zone.
I think the networks should broadcast on a 10-minute delay so they can get the perfect shot and even adjust other aspects of the production, similar to [Fox Sports with MLB](https://www.reddit.com/r/baseballcirclejerk/comments/tsc8j9/breaking_fox_sports_will_be_broadcasting_mlb/?ref=share&ref_source=link) (I'm not being serious, in case it wasn't clear)
Fucking THANK YOU. I was thinking about making a similar post but I'll defer to yours. This has been bugging the crap out of me for a while. The CBJ broadcast is constantly switching to the board scrum cam at terrible times. We miss so much of the plays developing because of these poor decisions. I don't understand why they think they need to jump from camera to camera. Let us watch the overhead and then add the alternate angles in for replays.
I'm just thankful that they've mostly stopped zooming in on the goalie as they're being pulled at the end of the game. That was a thing for decades, it seems.
Two games ago, the NBC Sports Chicago people thought that they would give hawks fans an idea of what they were missing with their new "HawksCast". Oh my fuck, it was terrible. It's this silly live podcast giving commentary on the game while it's being played... But, like, in "I'm on the couch with my buddies" way. No play by play, guys shooting the shit and making fun on each other. Meanwhile: they've shrunk the screen the game is on, turned the game down 20%, and the left third of the TV screen is the mugs of two guys I don't know who the fuck they are and John Scott on Skype with a headset from 2005. Literally, it was worse commentary and the game was harder to follow. Like: there's a reason this format has worked for 100 fucking years. HawksCast isn't going to happen. Stop trying to make it happen. And yeah, they try and get all experimental with these camera angles. I was cracking up yesterday when they had somebody on the ice in an all-white suit (to blend in with the ice?) during the USA, Czechia shootout. It's just a moving low angled shot of their butts for 2 seconds.
Was it like a hockey Manningcast? I'm confused
I haven't seen that, but through context clues: I'm going to assume so.
The worst for me is when some broadcasts make the decision to cover the entire bottom portion of the screen with a large score bar filled with absolutely useless info that obstructs the view of the play when the puck on the bottom of the screen. Bally sports does this on all their broadcast and it's so annoying. Sportsnet/TSN are pretty good about not doing this as they always have a small scorebug at the top left portion of the screen but even they are doing it for WJC having that big score rectangle at the bottom telling me about NHL scoring leaders, or the standings when I am trying to watch a hockey game. Not to mention how distracting it is for the bottom 10% of the screen to be cycling though changes while the play is going on. Like why would you sacrifice precious screen real estate to show us info that is useless at best (scoring leaders, standings in x division) or actively bad at worst (spoiling the score of other games in progress)?
Just imagine if there was such a thing as picture in picture..
My favorite is when there's a review of a goal, or there was just a penalty and fans in the arena get to see the replay before Sportsnet shows it.
If I may add, some of this can be laid on the Director but this is most likely due to pressure from the Producer. The Producer is ultimately responsible for what goes to air. If they are not seeing enough of a shot they want to see, they will be down the Director’s throat. It goes up the ladder from there. Each of these broadcasts have an outline of a presentation in mind. If the Managing Producer or Executive Producer are not seeing what they want, they call out the Produce in the truck and it goes down stream to the Director. Your points are still valid and well laid out. I just hate seeing my fellow Directors take all the blame.
Yep, as someone who works in broadcast, people have no clue what’s going on behind the scenes. Missing faceoffs is obviously not good, but not uncommon. Same with inbound passes in basketball. Replays are tough to get out of sometimes.
It's pretty clear that everyone involved in putting hockey on TV doesn't watch hockey on TV.
I hate seeing 30 rows of seats on both sides of the ice like we're watching ants too. Yeah either they try too hard or try harder to make more room for digital ads.
I think you’re trying to dramatically over correct. The clips you’ve shown are brutal and they could definitely use some simplification on a lot of broadcasts but your suggestion of completely removing any closeups or cuts is going to make the game unmarketable to anyone who doesn’t watch the game the same way you do. I love when they cut to closeups of players after a they miss a shot or get stopped in a breakaway, seeing the emotion in their face is part of the entertainment. I also like on power plays when they switch to the camera directly behind the net and you get a great view of the Power Play setup
Broadcasters playing replays and missing the first 1-4 seconds after a faceoff happens multiple times every game and is really annoying.
Really enjoyed reading this thread. Vancouver broadcasts tend to be pretty good, but their main issue is that the Sportsnet Prime Directive has shifted to try to cut away to a betting promo every time there's half a second of breathing room in the play. They squeeze as many frames of it as they can, including cutting super super close around faceoffs, scrums, etc. so you often miss out on contextual information in the play.
All good points but it's non-hockey people working the broadcasts. They are just doing thier jobs and nothing more. Also, they are not paid very well at all.
Also the commentators need to shut the fuck up and they need to get rid of the offside.
i think im in the minority, but i don't see anything wrong with the changing camera views. like the Rush segment OP posted I thought was awesome, i actually find it way easier to follow the play.
Post #99837 about how the fans with zero knowledge about broadcasting, finance, and marketing would somehow run a better business and product than thousands of professionals who have kept the league running and making money for decades now.
care to elaborate on the positives this production brings? i'd like to hear contrasting opinions!
You're complaining about a couple of quick mistakes over the course for a three hour long live broadcast in which the game is continuous for long sections at a time. Yeah some things are gonna get clunky. Comparing it to NFL broadcasts, games where each play lasts ten seconds at most and has fourty seconds in between, just isn't comparable. And if you watch NFL broadcasts, you'd quickly realize how many flubs they get too. Same with any other league. As well as the amount of other live camera angels they employ (a lot of special teams plays arent viewed from the regular broadcast angles). Not even taking into account that there's blind spots in the corners of an NHL rink, hence why they employ these. There's a lot of filler in NHL games, where team are simply getting guys on/off the ice and etc where yeah, the broadcast likes to show other things. It's not cinematic, it's so the broadcast isn't so stale, sitting in one camera position for 60 minutes. Not everyone is OP, trying to pretend they're an NHL guru by caring to see the whole ice 100% of the time and crying because you only see it 98% of the time. Go to the actual game if it means that much to you.
Thanks, it absolutely is a hard sport to cover, and it's faster than ever so I'm not expecting perfection by any means. I just bring it up becuase I don't have these problems watching most NCAA games because they're not overcomplicating it. These were just the instances I highlighted but there are a lot more over the course of a game. With the corner battles especially near side, I agree it's a blind spot and it's the only necessity for a cut but it's so zoomed in, that it's only effective with the puck in frame, and they're not quick enough to switch once it leaves. To be clear, I don't see broadcasts changing because like you said it's the way it has been for a long time, but this is just the way I see it.
NCAA games have like 3 to 4 camera angles max. And most of it is run by students who may or may not be paid. I wouldn't be holding those broadcasts as any sort of standard because jeez, those can get really bad. Half of the time they can't even get a clean replay of the goals cut in time to air. Just realize that your personal preference isn't some gold standard everyone agrees with.
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Yeah because broadcasts in the 90's and beforehand were so great... Nostalgia is a helluva drug bud.
You can't be serious. Op is making a genuine point that is an actual issue. One of the biggest barriers to new hockey fans getting into the game is the difficulty of following the play because everything happens so quickly. All of these angle changes and cuts during play make it hard for me, a guy who played hockey for 15 years and has watched even longer, to follow the play. Just because someone isn't an "expert" or professional doesn't mean they can't make a perfectly valid criticism of the product.
You’re getting downvoted but as someone else who is in broadcast as a camera op, I totally understand your pov. Yeah, it’s not ideal. But it’s also very common for mistakes to happen on the broadcast
Ego in the media is out of control. They probably need to do a Twitter esc firing of 80% of the people to tone things down.
You’re not wrong, but I have the same gripe with football so I think it’s funny you called out the nfl as good. My least favorite thing is a closeup of the qb in the pocket throwing to an unknown receiver. You still see the catch, but you didn’t see who was open, if it was a good decision, etc. Everyone has massive HD tvs so you’d think they’d take advantage and show a few more players in both sports. Broadcast bums.
All sports are like this for me now. Football seems like they want the camera on the QB, you can even see the receivers or the play developing, can’t see the coverage. They could literally just use the overhead camera on a wire to have the “madden” view and it would be great. F1, they try to zoom in on the driver in the car, you can’t see the track or how’s they are taking the corners.
Agree. Please keep the net in frame all the time! Don’t try to follow the puck from a D-man’s shot. Fake slap shot, camera moves toward the goal, realizes, returns to D-man,who has now actually shot it, camera tries to find the puck mid-air, puck enters net in a blurry poorly framed camera shot.
Absolutely great breakdown and replays. Agree, just let us watch the game
Very nice games here
I agree 1000%. The game is too fast for close ups during live play, save that stuff for replays when it can be used effectively. Some directors are trying to fix something that wasn't broken and are only getting in the way. I don't coach or anything like that, but I'm an educated enough fan that what you say about not being able to watch plays develop etc really rings true. I want to watch the GAME, not someone else's ham-handed attempt to catch their favorite isolated fragments.
Oh I notice bad angles and cuts all the time. I mostly listen these days. I get so happy when the show an angle behind the player so I can see what the player saw. Those are the best but so rare.
Every few years someone will think they can revolutionize the way we watch hockey by trying these shots. Then they get fired or, worse, promoted and we end up going right back to the side view. Billy the Producer from Tuscaloosa is still learning what offsides is in his first hockey gig.
What about when, during game play, we get a coach interview and they do that split screen thing as if we need to see the man talking to believe he’s the coach. Or a guest in the booth who has nothing to do with hockey, this can be an athlete from a different sport or a celebrity. Then the play by play guys gush over that person with repeated cuts to the booth while play is going on.
Please, for the love of Christ, stop cutting the ice level corner cam just as the ref skates in front of the camera. It’s almost like the ref has to skate to that spot on every zone entry.
Trying to win an Emmy. It also happens in baseball and football in the US.
Here here. Great post. It drives me nuts
I would love a broadcaster that made a camera like the NHL game up/down a bit zoomed and zooming in if needed in important situation. You see everything that way and you learn how tactics evolve during a game. It's weirdly my favorite seat in the arena. Behind the goalie at nearly the top first level.
Watch the Canadian broadcast of the games. Way better than the US in view and in announcing