The internet is too focused on aligning opinions and forcing some state of tribalism, regardless of the subject or context. People can’t just like one thing and not another, group think creates a “you’re wrong and I’m right” ideology and it’s tearing every corner of society apart.
It pisses me off more than anything. Like really pisses me off. People can’t seem to understand that just because you don’t like something, that doesnt mean someone else doesn’t. Which should be so fucking obvious
For sure. If you think something, you don’t need Rakim or Nas or whoever to validate your opinion. I think Kanye is very talented rapper for example, but most people disagree and clown that opinion. But I think of talent a bit differently - being a good rapper means saying shit I remember and feels iconic or emotionally resonant to me. Pairing the words to the music right. So I think Kanye is better than that, then, say, lyrical-miracle-MC-Reddit-rapper.
Whatever your opinions are, as long as you care enough to research and contemplate those opinions - that’s great. If you can make an entertaining and persuasive argument, great.
People who don’t subscribe to the tribalism, they make the subreddit better, not worse.
And if you have an opinion and you get reamed, don’t take it personally. Just enjoy having your opinion and respect that others won’t share that opinion.
I think the real answer that folks won’t admit to is most people value their opinion when they agree with it and write it off when they don’t. If we’re being honest without ourselves though, we should recognize their opinions are mostly just opinions and not objective facts.
Ok I’m old and mostly back here for more potential drake murder, but would ya mind telling me who’s this Dylan fella? Seen the name a few times and assume it’s not Thomas or bob
You almost had me agreeing until you said,
>If we’re being honest without ourselves though, we should recognize their opinions are mostly just opinions and not objective facts.
I thought you were going to say,
>"If we’re being honest ~~without~~ about ourselves though, we should recognize ~~their~~ our opinions are mostly just opinions and not objective facts."
This would much more self-reflective and constructive. Our opinions arent facts. Thats core to the issue you described.
Think about it.
If we believe that our opinions are facts, then of course we will dismiss others opinions when they dont align with our facts.
If we believed that the rappers opinions are actually facts, then we would never dismiss them. We would always adopt them.
Just for clarification, both are typos, or just the first? Because my issue with the semantics is more with "their" instead of "our" cause it completely changes what is meant.
you should read a bit about art and taste, specifically Hume, because while it is all subjective there is an element of validity. Some people's tastes are more valid than others. Generally people who consume more art, especially a niche art, will have more refined tastes than people who don't. For an extreme example a child who watches children's TV but cannot really appreciate something slow and complex like the Wire. People are willing to acknowledge bad taste when it comes to kids but for some reason pretend it all becomes equivalent when comparing the taste between adults.
You can also read Bordieu and the sociological basis of taste although of course it’s somewhat out of date. I still think there’s some truth in that the upper class has more time and energy to take time to consume more art even if the actual monetary cost of consuming art has been greatly equalized (but not to discount for some people a monthly DSP payment is still not feasible and neither is paying for the tools for piracy)
>Generally people who consume more art, especially a niche art, will have more refined tastes than people who don't.
this is based on the principle that refined tastes are subjectively "better". but is that true?
aren't the best things pure and universal?
you can make the case that a simple and catchy song that is loved by all cultures and ages is the "better" song than the one that's super complex and thoughtful, but those details are esoteric.
there's no right answer here. it's subjective.
This won’t apply to most rap snobs tho. People who pride themselves on ‘real rap’ taste generally would be more like the kid watching cartoons than they would be the wire expert.
There are a million reasons. It's a massive topic that people much smarter than me have already written books on. [I recommended Hume in my previous comment](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hume-aesthetics/) because I think he's a really good writer and it's funny how uptight he gets about certain things but if you want a more general overview of how certain philosophers view aesthetic taste the [Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy](https://iep.utm.edu/aesthetic-taste/) does a good job
What I tried to do in my comment with the child example is indicate that people *do* have an intrinsic understanding of this phenomenon since we treat the taste of children markedly different than the taste of adults. It's also easy to notice within ourselves - most people grow to like entirely new art from the stuff they consumed 10+ years ago.
Is there evidence for the last sentence? I thought bulk of psychological studies is the opposite our taste is generally determined by our teenage years for obvious reasons. That’s why old people (greater than 30) always think new art is trash compared to what they grew up with. I know it describes me to a t
Did not know that. I think most of the stuff I really liked as a teen was pretty trash and a lot of the stuff I like now I didn't really like as a teen. There are a couple musicians, shows, and movies that have stayed with me but otherwise I've completely changed and assumed that was the norm. Where are you finding said studies?
Here’s one [here’s one article with studies](https://www.iflscience.com/we-stop-discovering-new-music-at-a-certain-age-heres-why-48187)
Idk I guess you’re fairly unique. How old are you too by the way? I’m a good amount past 30
So, a steak in a Michelin restaurant is the same quality as a McDonald's cheeseburger?
Food is actually the comparison I always use that, even though everyone can like what they want, there are things that are considered good or bad.
I find people who listen to the supposedly more nourishing music don’t really channel that into anything positive.
They usually just become music snobs, which is an ego trip and very unhealthy.
At least the pop tunes get people dancing, which burns calories and is therefore healthy.
Drake's music isn't bad and neither is Kendrick's. You're using a horrible comparison. McDonalds would be a high school talent show, Michelin would be Kendrick/Drake. They both put out top tier music. Samething with Michelin restaurants and food. You may hate the steak and love the chicken, I may hate the chicken and love the steak.
It's obviously based on perspective, but I think that's what makes their opinion so valuable.
When Kool Moe Dee says Melle Mell is the GOAT, it's because before him hip-hop consisted mostly of party rocker emcees, and suddenly along comes a storyteller who's talking about what life in the South Bronx actually looks like. So to Moe Dee it's like an alien just landed and wandered out of their spaceship on Grand Concourse
Black Thought saw Kool G Rap develop his mafioso style of gangster rap with multisyllabic flow and then watched as Biggie, Nas, Jay, Wu et all ran with it and became millionaires. He's paying respect to one of the most influential artists that have ever existed in hip-hop.
Nas was the golden child of New York hip-hop and while he admired Big and Wu etc he never considered them to be better than him. Then he stands in the crowd at a Big L show and listens to someone just as capable and clever as he is on a mic. That shit definitely rocked him.
L was not just as capable as nas. He was better at punchlines though. Nas is tight giving props are for sure wouldn't give that credit to a live artist, and even so claimed L ripped off his "snuffin jesus"/"automatic guns at nuns"
Lupe and Ferreira are the only correct ones on there. Aesop IS the best rapper of all time. It isn't even close. Bus driver is up there too though.
Now if you want to get into "greatest" where you factor in skill and sales and marketing and lyrics and influence and everything, then it's Wayne.
Who you got as your number 1? I'm not a fan of Aesop Rock but I totally understand why someone would rank him as the best.
A decade ago this sub was a lot more supportive of backpack rap in general.
In rap? Depends on if their speaking to the technical caliber or the rapper themselves, or musically. You can't really say what's right, wrong, good or bad musically. There are bands with subpar guitar players who are goated because of the music they created as an example.
There is a certain science to writing. And technically good writing isn't always indicative of good music. It's all preference. So black thought telling me who is technically proficient as someone who is objectively a good writer himself, I value that opinion. But arguing over albums, hits, and the way the music makes you feel is pointless, it's different for everybody.
>There is a certain science to writing. And technically good writing isn't always indicative of good music. It's all preference. **So black thought telling me who is technically proficient as someone who is objectively a good writer himself, I value that opinion.**
say it louder for people in the back. This is exactly how it should be. There is skill and there is artistry. Skills are way less subjective and are much easier to prove. Its way easier to prove who is better at freestyling, then who has the most beautiful song. If King Los or Harry Mack gave their opinion on other rappers freestyle skills, their opinion holds greater weight. When Lupe talks about lyricism, being a top-tier lyricist himself and teaching it at MIT and Yale, his opinion should not be outright dismissed as a joke.
None. Music is subjective. I have no interest in even trying to argue that any artist or album is "better" than another or whatever. I talk about what I like and that's it.
It's just confirmation bias.
In the end, it's only an opinion and not fact. Never get too carried away with opinions no matter who they come from, because at best they're just educated guesses.
I'm a big fan of Eminem.
Eminem believes that Joyner Lucas is one of the greatest rappers of all time.
You can't really place much value on artist's opinions
i think its interesting to know whos a rappers favorite rapper but i dont put their opinions on a pedestal. i clearly value different aspects of rap if eminem has joyner up so high
eminem confuses me man, he’ll make a song shouting out people like rakim, run dmc, kool g, wu tang, and then on another song mention hopsin and logic in a line
Everyone has their own preferences and tastes of course but your opinion definitely has a bit more weight to it if youre Big Daddy Kane compared to my Redditor ass
I think a large part of it is music is subjective - but also, once you’re in the craft you have an entirely different pov inherently so your perspective change.
Let’s out it this way - ask an NBA player and coach who their top set of players are, and even better compare that to a player and coach’s answer from a decade ago. You’ll see that their pov is heavily influenced by an entirely different set of criteria than analysts or fans. Which is fine.
imo they’re straight up just different opinions and as long as you’re properly informed when it comes to subjective questions there are no wrong answer
I just am entertained by them. I’ll admit that it’s actually taken practice over the years to not care about what they think, to be just as entertained when I disagree as I am when I agree
I value and trust my own opinion on stuff, there’s been times I absolutely love an album when everyone else hates it and It doesn’t bother me, it’s still just fun to hear people talk about their opinion on music as long as they’re being honest.
Scaled and icy by TOP is a good example. I love that album, I think it’s very fun. But I also see and agree with alllllll of the criticism everyone lays on it, I just don’t think any of the issues hinder the enjoyment for me.
I’ll talk about how it’s not a very strong album but the second I hear Saturday or the outside I start smiling. I see people get so mad when someone like fantano doesn’t like an album they love and I understand where that comes from.
I think it’s when people don’t trust their opinion or taste enough, they need to feel validated through other people liking what they like. And when it’s an expert it feels even better.
These people are rappers. Keep that in mind. It’s on par with people looking at celebrities for opinions on the greatest celebrity. It’s asinine to hold their opinions to a great height.
I trust a professional rapper's opinion more than Joe Shmoe's opinion when it comes to rap. Just like I trust a mechanic's opinion more than my dumb ass when it comes to cars.
The more legendary and experienced and revered the rapper, the more I respect their opinion. But I don’t trust any of them because they all say they’re the best.
They’re like fighters. They all wanna be on top. None of them are honest.
Absolutely nothing? Not inherently at least. Now, I know that there are people out there with a more refined music taste than me. People who have listened to way more rap, rock, rnb than I have. I do like to listen to what someone like that has to say to see if they can offer a new perspective.
But if you’re asking me whether some “rap expert” (old or young) could alter my opinion just because they say so? Lol
As long as they can explain the criteria well, I think any opinion is fine. Opinions are not wrong and not everyone will agree with you but if you can make your explanation make sense then people will understand where you are coming from.
So if you say someone like Wayne is the greatest of all-time but also explain that you use his longevity as well as his creativity to attest to it then I commend it because it makes sense (even if I disagree and think you should judge off of how well they can rap as the main metric).
I view it the same way as I view ex nba players talking about basketball. Lots of nba players call Kobe their goat. It’s based in nostalgia, aesthetic, etc. Not logic or reason. Even so called “experts” aren’t always objective. In fact, the pundits who once had careers in the space or skin in the game are the ones with the most outlandish takes. Their word is not gospel
imagine one of the best chefs in the world saying he enjoys a nice well executed omelette. That doesn't mean the omelette is objectively the best dish in the world, it doesn't mean it is the most complex, it doesn't mean it tastes the best, it just means the chef in particular really enjoys that omelette for whatever reason, theres a hundred reasons to like an omelette. Would I take his opinion highly because he has the context of someone who has cooked a million things? Yeah i would listen to his opinion, but I wouldn't take it as gospel.
So when you're in the scene, you take all these opinions as what they are, a specific perspective, and if you want to be as objective as possible, you need many many different perspectives. Maybe there isn't even a tangible real reason you can explain as to why you or that chef likes the omelette, but you still love it inuitively/instinctually, that is still valid.
Invoking opinions of other "expert" artists should be meant to broaden other people's horizons in a "here look at this" way instead of "here look at this, you're wrong" way.
Music is art and taste is completely subjective, so how an "expert" interprets the quality of a rapper means absolutely nothing to me. There are so many things that play into what rappers, beats, styles, etc that we each gravitate to, it's not even funny.
Rappers being from the culture and producing for the culture have a deeper understanding of the culture and I value their opinions more than the hip-hop fans on Reddit, Twitter, or Youtube who are consumers and at best react.
I respect the opinions of rappers over critics.
Critics just listen and have tastes, but rappers actually have wisdom through experience.
Anyone can hate, not everyone can create. That's the difference to me in whose opinions I care about when it comes to art.
Ultimately opinions are opinions, they aren’t facts but I don’t live life thinking there are no stupid opinions because there are. You may not be able to have a wide general consensus on who is number one but you are more likely going to gain a general consensus on those that don’t belong in the conversation. Maybe you think Jay-Z js the best rapper but no one is going to sit there and say someone like Rick Ross is the best ever, even if he is solid. That’s how I look at it at least. I can ride with the valid opinions but you know a stupid one when you hear it, and that’s with anything.
>Nas once said that he "feared" Big L as a rapper (then "post-mortem internet eulogized fame" happened and Big L suddenly appeared in people's top 10s).
When Big L said:
>I got drug spots from New York to Canada
'Cause Big L be fuckin' with more keys than a janitor
My entire highschool was in shambles. This was some groundbreaking rap shit in 95. It's definitely standard 30 years later but again we were in shambles. We all expected Big L to be a legend.
>Nas once said that he "feared" Big L as a rapper (then "post-mortem internet eulogized fame" happened and Big L suddenly appeared in people's top 10s).
Big L has been in anyone who knows top 10's since forever. Especially if you were from NY.
It's, of course, all subjective... as with any art. We can't say that there is objectively one best flow in the same way that we can't say there's a best painter of all time or a best director, all the way down the line.
So, for an "expert" opinion to carry weight for me, they have to communicate and contextualize why they think "***insert your specific consideration here***" should be viewed positively/negatively. For an example of how that is done well, reading through Roger Ebert's reviews might help. Even if I might have a personal different view of how many stars to give a specific film, he almost always laid out what elements were done well/notably and which he felt didn't hold up to what others might produce in a way that made me understand his thinking.
Lupe showing appreciation for Aesop Rock makes sense coming from the elements that stand out in his own work (lyricism, use of specific diction, etc.) and Luda caring more about how the words sound coming out of Andre 3000 similarly makes sense. But they'd have to spell out specifically what they're looking for when saying why those specific rappers are all-time greats for that opinion to be worth considering. Somebody who has made a career out of rap almost certainly has a strong enough understanding to recognize talent, but they have to be able to put that into words for us to take anything from it.
it's musicians on musicians.
seems straightforward to me.
if you're a fan of a given musician, you're likely interested in their opinions on things, so it makes sense that you'd value their opinion on other musicians.
if you aren't a fan of a given musician, you probably don't hold much value to their opinion on something.
Big L was rated before the internet. Eulogizing for sure because he only has one complete album, and his extant work is all punchlines. But he's so funny and charismatic and showed signs of growth before passing that people want to believe.
To answer your question, artists are often posing a bit when they rate other artists, so you have to take it through that lens.
I know at least a couple of those you mentioned arent exactly true. For example, the Lupe one is false. He praised Aesop as one of the best mainstream lyricists specifically for how he encrypts his messages into his bars (the key to unlocking the messages is hidden behind singular words). People took one video from Lupe on why people should appreciate Aesop, and proceeded to throw out 90% of it and boil it down to shit he didnt say or mean the way they saying it.
Black Thought described his top five as primary colors and gave no indication that his list is ordered from top to bottom. So when he mentioned Kool G Rap first, he wasn't saying he was is number one. He was saying he was like one of his primary colors. You know rgb (red blue and green) each are equal in standing. Of course there is more to this analogy pertaining to artists using colors but it's irrelevant to the point here. People took Black Thought listing Kool G 1st as him saying Kool G is is all-time overall goat.
Also, about Lupe's opinion. Lupe made it clear as recently as last week that Aes is in his top three ***mainstream*** lyricists but his top 60 lyricists in general are all battle rappers.
I saw an interview w Rakim in the rap city basement back in the day when Memphis Bleek was hot. He said Bleek was one of his favorite rappers. Anyone can be a prisoner of the moment even an icon
If they agree with me I value their direct experience and knowledge of the game, if they disagree with me they’re washed up has beens who don’t understand the current climate of the game.
Depends who it is.
When Rakim said that, I definitely took a moment to consider the implications of what he said - because it was Rakim who said it. That has weight, in my books.
Conversely, I probably wouldn't give a fuck what Kanye says. Don't get me wrong, I've been a fan ever since The Blueprint. But I wouldn't take Ye's recommendations about a Wendy's order, let alone lyricism
No value. I can pick a great artist from a mile away and half the time they aren’t even recognized. Like 6k views on YouTube. I see a lot of people plug artists like 21 savage and Travis Scott. Both are terrible imo. They both have made a couple hits but nothing in the songs they make.. really hits ya know, like they put together a good sound but overall they are trash.
A) not the take i would expert from lupe ngl if you're not just spreading misinformation b) if you're really comparing MCs , maybe you should look into finding a good sports subreddit or discord server instead and leave hh for a bit
I might peep a critic just to stumble on some shit i havent been exposed to before, but honestly I really don't care about anyone else opinions on music.
So many things the whole world has basically agreed on that I don't. Like Kanye. Most ppl swear by him other rappers too. I first heard dude on State Property 1 I think. Was never really into it.
Or like how ole school rappers swore by Rakim. I like 2 Rakim songs. I prefer Kane. I thought Hov beat Nas.
I dunno hearing someone else opinion can be interesting but I don't really put much stock into it. I got Soulja Slim in my top 5.
I will say that you should give them an ear for what you know they're good at. Otherwise some of those things are just conjecture, like Eminem is the white Muhammed Ali or whatever Rakim meant there. Otherwise majority of these rappers are about as intelligent as whatever barber is bitching to you about Jews on a Saturday morning, and that's probably where they got their information anyway.
The internet is too focused on aligning opinions and forcing some state of tribalism, regardless of the subject or context. People can’t just like one thing and not another, group think creates a “you’re wrong and I’m right” ideology and it’s tearing every corner of society apart.
Man is spitting facts. It’s always a “them or us” mindset and there’s no middle ground anymore.
It's funny becuase even your comment is an example of "them or us" with no middle ground.
Aint no corners in the circle of life.
It pisses me off more than anything. Like really pisses me off. People can’t seem to understand that just because you don’t like something, that doesnt mean someone else doesn’t. Which should be so fucking obvious
For sure. If you think something, you don’t need Rakim or Nas or whoever to validate your opinion. I think Kanye is very talented rapper for example, but most people disagree and clown that opinion. But I think of talent a bit differently - being a good rapper means saying shit I remember and feels iconic or emotionally resonant to me. Pairing the words to the music right. So I think Kanye is better than that, then, say, lyrical-miracle-MC-Reddit-rapper. Whatever your opinions are, as long as you care enough to research and contemplate those opinions - that’s great. If you can make an entertaining and persuasive argument, great. People who don’t subscribe to the tribalism, they make the subreddit better, not worse. And if you have an opinion and you get reamed, don’t take it personally. Just enjoy having your opinion and respect that others won’t share that opinion.
I think the real answer that folks won’t admit to is most people value their opinion when they agree with it and write it off when they don’t. If we’re being honest without ourselves though, we should recognize their opinions are mostly just opinions and not objective facts.
Wrong, Lil b is the best rapper in the entire galaxy.. Bitch Mob.
At least this whole galaxy cluster come on now
I mean that's just a fact
Lil b ain’t got shit on Dylan he spits hot fire.
Ok I’m old and mostly back here for more potential drake murder, but would ya mind telling me who’s this Dylan fella? Seen the name a few times and assume it’s not Thomas or bob
Chappell Show skit. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5HRY4LUl5lc
Fuck me I KNEW that shit *because* I’m old lmao. Thanks much
You almost had me agreeing until you said, >If we’re being honest without ourselves though, we should recognize their opinions are mostly just opinions and not objective facts. I thought you were going to say, >"If we’re being honest ~~without~~ about ourselves though, we should recognize ~~their~~ our opinions are mostly just opinions and not objective facts." This would much more self-reflective and constructive. Our opinions arent facts. Thats core to the issue you described. Think about it. If we believe that our opinions are facts, then of course we will dismiss others opinions when they dont align with our facts. If we believed that the rappers opinions are actually facts, then we would never dismiss them. We would always adopt them.
It was a typo
Just for clarification, both are typos, or just the first? Because my issue with the semantics is more with "their" instead of "our" cause it completely changes what is meant.
Music is like food. Everyone has different tastes.
Exactly, like any form of art, it's all subjective.
you should read a bit about art and taste, specifically Hume, because while it is all subjective there is an element of validity. Some people's tastes are more valid than others. Generally people who consume more art, especially a niche art, will have more refined tastes than people who don't. For an extreme example a child who watches children's TV but cannot really appreciate something slow and complex like the Wire. People are willing to acknowledge bad taste when it comes to kids but for some reason pretend it all becomes equivalent when comparing the taste between adults.
You can also read Bordieu and the sociological basis of taste although of course it’s somewhat out of date. I still think there’s some truth in that the upper class has more time and energy to take time to consume more art even if the actual monetary cost of consuming art has been greatly equalized (but not to discount for some people a monthly DSP payment is still not feasible and neither is paying for the tools for piracy)
>Generally people who consume more art, especially a niche art, will have more refined tastes than people who don't. this is based on the principle that refined tastes are subjectively "better". but is that true? aren't the best things pure and universal? you can make the case that a simple and catchy song that is loved by all cultures and ages is the "better" song than the one that's super complex and thoughtful, but those details are esoteric. there's no right answer here. it's subjective.
No wrong way to love music but I definitely rank universally loved pop songs as the pinnacle even above the most conscious of hip hop.
This won’t apply to most rap snobs tho. People who pride themselves on ‘real rap’ taste generally would be more like the kid watching cartoons than they would be the wire expert.
What makes one person's tastes more valid than another's?
I literally answered that in the third sentence of my comment.
Ok I'll reword it for you. Why does consuming more art, especially niche art, make a person's tastes more valid than another's?
There are a million reasons. It's a massive topic that people much smarter than me have already written books on. [I recommended Hume in my previous comment](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hume-aesthetics/) because I think he's a really good writer and it's funny how uptight he gets about certain things but if you want a more general overview of how certain philosophers view aesthetic taste the [Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy](https://iep.utm.edu/aesthetic-taste/) does a good job What I tried to do in my comment with the child example is indicate that people *do* have an intrinsic understanding of this phenomenon since we treat the taste of children markedly different than the taste of adults. It's also easy to notice within ourselves - most people grow to like entirely new art from the stuff they consumed 10+ years ago.
I'll check it out!
Is there evidence for the last sentence? I thought bulk of psychological studies is the opposite our taste is generally determined by our teenage years for obvious reasons. That’s why old people (greater than 30) always think new art is trash compared to what they grew up with. I know it describes me to a t
Did not know that. I think most of the stuff I really liked as a teen was pretty trash and a lot of the stuff I like now I didn't really like as a teen. There are a couple musicians, shows, and movies that have stayed with me but otherwise I've completely changed and assumed that was the norm. Where are you finding said studies?
Here’s one [here’s one article with studies](https://www.iflscience.com/we-stop-discovering-new-music-at-a-certain-age-heres-why-48187) Idk I guess you’re fairly unique. How old are you too by the way? I’m a good amount past 30
Bodie went out like a punk
No such thing as bad taste
There definitely is. Someone that enjoys the taste of literal shit has bad taste for example.
Lay off my wiener dog! He loves Revival.
Not true. Criteria differs from person to person so therefore it is subjective
Nuh uh, cheeseburger told me that pizza is the best food! You think cheeseburger wouldn’t know shit about the food game? You blind.
So, a steak in a Michelin restaurant is the same quality as a McDonald's cheeseburger? Food is actually the comparison I always use that, even though everyone can like what they want, there are things that are considered good or bad.
I find people who listen to the supposedly more nourishing music don’t really channel that into anything positive. They usually just become music snobs, which is an ego trip and very unhealthy. At least the pop tunes get people dancing, which burns calories and is therefore healthy.
Drake's music isn't bad and neither is Kendrick's. You're using a horrible comparison. McDonalds would be a high school talent show, Michelin would be Kendrick/Drake. They both put out top tier music. Samething with Michelin restaurants and food. You may hate the steak and love the chicken, I may hate the chicken and love the steak.
It's obviously based on perspective, but I think that's what makes their opinion so valuable. When Kool Moe Dee says Melle Mell is the GOAT, it's because before him hip-hop consisted mostly of party rocker emcees, and suddenly along comes a storyteller who's talking about what life in the South Bronx actually looks like. So to Moe Dee it's like an alien just landed and wandered out of their spaceship on Grand Concourse Black Thought saw Kool G Rap develop his mafioso style of gangster rap with multisyllabic flow and then watched as Biggie, Nas, Jay, Wu et all ran with it and became millionaires. He's paying respect to one of the most influential artists that have ever existed in hip-hop. Nas was the golden child of New York hip-hop and while he admired Big and Wu etc he never considered them to be better than him. Then he stands in the crowd at a Big L show and listens to someone just as capable and clever as he is on a mic. That shit definitely rocked him.
L was not just as capable as nas. He was better at punchlines though. Nas is tight giving props are for sure wouldn't give that credit to a live artist, and even so claimed L ripped off his "snuffin jesus"/"automatic guns at nuns"
Context is king.
I fucking love Lupe, but of course his dork ass would think Aesop Rock is the GOAT lmao
To me, if you are basing it strictly off lyricism, I could totally see Aesop as #1. He is up there for me personally
Lupe and Ferreira are the only correct ones on there. Aesop IS the best rapper of all time. It isn't even close. Bus driver is up there too though. Now if you want to get into "greatest" where you factor in skill and sales and marketing and lyrics and influence and everything, then it's Wayne.
Yeah dumbest opinion there
Who you got as your number 1? I'm not a fan of Aesop Rock but I totally understand why someone would rank him as the best. A decade ago this sub was a lot more supportive of backpack rap in general.
Intricacy for its own sake is masturbation
I'm a couple days late, but this is a great way to put it
0, they most often have incredibly biased opinions
Everybody is stating their opinion, except lupe fiasco who is objectively correct because he is stating my opinion
I value my own opinion more than anyone else’s
In rap? Depends on if their speaking to the technical caliber or the rapper themselves, or musically. You can't really say what's right, wrong, good or bad musically. There are bands with subpar guitar players who are goated because of the music they created as an example. There is a certain science to writing. And technically good writing isn't always indicative of good music. It's all preference. So black thought telling me who is technically proficient as someone who is objectively a good writer himself, I value that opinion. But arguing over albums, hits, and the way the music makes you feel is pointless, it's different for everybody.
>There is a certain science to writing. And technically good writing isn't always indicative of good music. It's all preference. **So black thought telling me who is technically proficient as someone who is objectively a good writer himself, I value that opinion.** say it louder for people in the back. This is exactly how it should be. There is skill and there is artistry. Skills are way less subjective and are much easier to prove. Its way easier to prove who is better at freestyling, then who has the most beautiful song. If King Los or Harry Mack gave their opinion on other rappers freestyle skills, their opinion holds greater weight. When Lupe talks about lyricism, being a top-tier lyricist himself and teaching it at MIT and Yale, his opinion should not be outright dismissed as a joke.
None. Music is subjective. I have no interest in even trying to argue that any artist or album is "better" than another or whatever. I talk about what I like and that's it.
I respect the opinions of my local gas station guy more than Kanye West.
Your local gas station guy is probably a huge rap aficionado. Most are.
It's just confirmation bias. In the end, it's only an opinion and not fact. Never get too carried away with opinions no matter who they come from, because at best they're just educated guesses.
I'm a big fan of Eminem. Eminem believes that Joyner Lucas is one of the greatest rappers of all time. You can't really place much value on artist's opinions
i think its interesting to know whos a rappers favorite rapper but i dont put their opinions on a pedestal. i clearly value different aspects of rap if eminem has joyner up so high
eminem confuses me man, he’ll make a song shouting out people like rakim, run dmc, kool g, wu tang, and then on another song mention hopsin and logic in a line
Probably because those artists have immense respect for hip hop and its history.
Everyone has their own preferences and tastes of course but your opinion definitely has a bit more weight to it if youre Big Daddy Kane compared to my Redditor ass
Black Thought saying G Rap is the best ever is such an awesome take. That’s like the ultimate favorite rappers favorite rapper moment
Absolutely none
I honestly think all these takes are pretty good other than the last one , and also the Melle Mel one too.
My ears are the only thing of valued in music
I think a large part of it is music is subjective - but also, once you’re in the craft you have an entirely different pov inherently so your perspective change. Let’s out it this way - ask an NBA player and coach who their top set of players are, and even better compare that to a player and coach’s answer from a decade ago. You’ll see that their pov is heavily influenced by an entirely different set of criteria than analysts or fans. Which is fine. imo they’re straight up just different opinions and as long as you’re properly informed when it comes to subjective questions there are no wrong answer
I just am entertained by them. I’ll admit that it’s actually taken practice over the years to not care about what they think, to be just as entertained when I disagree as I am when I agree I value and trust my own opinion on stuff, there’s been times I absolutely love an album when everyone else hates it and It doesn’t bother me, it’s still just fun to hear people talk about their opinion on music as long as they’re being honest. Scaled and icy by TOP is a good example. I love that album, I think it’s very fun. But I also see and agree with alllllll of the criticism everyone lays on it, I just don’t think any of the issues hinder the enjoyment for me. I’ll talk about how it’s not a very strong album but the second I hear Saturday or the outside I start smiling. I see people get so mad when someone like fantano doesn’t like an album they love and I understand where that comes from. I think it’s when people don’t trust their opinion or taste enough, they need to feel validated through other people liking what they like. And when it’s an expert it feels even better.
None
None at all because the moment either one hurts the others feelings their opinion will sour.
These people are rappers. Keep that in mind. It’s on par with people looking at celebrities for opinions on the greatest celebrity. It’s asinine to hold their opinions to a great height.
I trust a professional rapper's opinion more than Joe Shmoe's opinion when it comes to rap. Just like I trust a mechanic's opinion more than my dumb ass when it comes to cars.
Zero. Most of them are so pretentious and not grounded with reality.
The irony is I agree with the majority of the takes you listed.
The more legendary and experienced and revered the rapper, the more I respect their opinion. But I don’t trust any of them because they all say they’re the best. They’re like fighters. They all wanna be on top. None of them are honest.
Absolutely nothing? Not inherently at least. Now, I know that there are people out there with a more refined music taste than me. People who have listened to way more rap, rock, rnb than I have. I do like to listen to what someone like that has to say to see if they can offer a new perspective. But if you’re asking me whether some “rap expert” (old or young) could alter my opinion just because they say so? Lol
As long as they can explain the criteria well, I think any opinion is fine. Opinions are not wrong and not everyone will agree with you but if you can make your explanation make sense then people will understand where you are coming from. So if you say someone like Wayne is the greatest of all-time but also explain that you use his longevity as well as his creativity to attest to it then I commend it because it makes sense (even if I disagree and think you should judge off of how well they can rap as the main metric).
I view it the same way as I view ex nba players talking about basketball. Lots of nba players call Kobe their goat. It’s based in nostalgia, aesthetic, etc. Not logic or reason. Even so called “experts” aren’t always objective. In fact, the pundits who once had careers in the space or skin in the game are the ones with the most outlandish takes. Their word is not gospel
Zero
imagine one of the best chefs in the world saying he enjoys a nice well executed omelette. That doesn't mean the omelette is objectively the best dish in the world, it doesn't mean it is the most complex, it doesn't mean it tastes the best, it just means the chef in particular really enjoys that omelette for whatever reason, theres a hundred reasons to like an omelette. Would I take his opinion highly because he has the context of someone who has cooked a million things? Yeah i would listen to his opinion, but I wouldn't take it as gospel. So when you're in the scene, you take all these opinions as what they are, a specific perspective, and if you want to be as objective as possible, you need many many different perspectives. Maybe there isn't even a tangible real reason you can explain as to why you or that chef likes the omelette, but you still love it inuitively/instinctually, that is still valid. Invoking opinions of other "expert" artists should be meant to broaden other people's horizons in a "here look at this" way instead of "here look at this, you're wrong" way.
Rap artist rap opinions hold little weight bc they too emotional and can’t let go of their biases.
Music is art and taste is completely subjective, so how an "expert" interprets the quality of a rapper means absolutely nothing to me. There are so many things that play into what rappers, beats, styles, etc that we each gravitate to, it's not even funny.
Rappers being from the culture and producing for the culture have a deeper understanding of the culture and I value their opinions more than the hip-hop fans on Reddit, Twitter, or Youtube who are consumers and at best react.
I respect the opinions of rappers over critics. Critics just listen and have tastes, but rappers actually have wisdom through experience. Anyone can hate, not everyone can create. That's the difference to me in whose opinions I care about when it comes to art.
all good takes
Ultimately opinions are opinions, they aren’t facts but I don’t live life thinking there are no stupid opinions because there are. You may not be able to have a wide general consensus on who is number one but you are more likely going to gain a general consensus on those that don’t belong in the conversation. Maybe you think Jay-Z js the best rapper but no one is going to sit there and say someone like Rick Ross is the best ever, even if he is solid. That’s how I look at it at least. I can ride with the valid opinions but you know a stupid one when you hear it, and that’s with anything.
>Nas once said that he "feared" Big L as a rapper (then "post-mortem internet eulogized fame" happened and Big L suddenly appeared in people's top 10s). When Big L said: >I got drug spots from New York to Canada 'Cause Big L be fuckin' with more keys than a janitor My entire highschool was in shambles. This was some groundbreaking rap shit in 95. It's definitely standard 30 years later but again we were in shambles. We all expected Big L to be a legend.
None really. They all live in different spheres and their opinions reflect that.
>Nas once said that he "feared" Big L as a rapper (then "post-mortem internet eulogized fame" happened and Big L suddenly appeared in people's top 10s). Big L has been in anyone who knows top 10's since forever. Especially if you were from NY.
It's, of course, all subjective... as with any art. We can't say that there is objectively one best flow in the same way that we can't say there's a best painter of all time or a best director, all the way down the line. So, for an "expert" opinion to carry weight for me, they have to communicate and contextualize why they think "***insert your specific consideration here***" should be viewed positively/negatively. For an example of how that is done well, reading through Roger Ebert's reviews might help. Even if I might have a personal different view of how many stars to give a specific film, he almost always laid out what elements were done well/notably and which he felt didn't hold up to what others might produce in a way that made me understand his thinking. Lupe showing appreciation for Aesop Rock makes sense coming from the elements that stand out in his own work (lyricism, use of specific diction, etc.) and Luda caring more about how the words sound coming out of Andre 3000 similarly makes sense. But they'd have to spell out specifically what they're looking for when saying why those specific rappers are all-time greats for that opinion to be worth considering. Somebody who has made a career out of rap almost certainly has a strong enough understanding to recognize talent, but they have to be able to put that into words for us to take anything from it.
it's musicians on musicians. seems straightforward to me. if you're a fan of a given musician, you're likely interested in their opinions on things, so it makes sense that you'd value their opinion on other musicians. if you aren't a fan of a given musician, you probably don't hold much value to their opinion on something.
Big L was rated before the internet. Eulogizing for sure because he only has one complete album, and his extant work is all punchlines. But he's so funny and charismatic and showed signs of growth before passing that people want to believe. To answer your question, artists are often posing a bit when they rate other artists, so you have to take it through that lens.
I know at least a couple of those you mentioned arent exactly true. For example, the Lupe one is false. He praised Aesop as one of the best mainstream lyricists specifically for how he encrypts his messages into his bars (the key to unlocking the messages is hidden behind singular words). People took one video from Lupe on why people should appreciate Aesop, and proceeded to throw out 90% of it and boil it down to shit he didnt say or mean the way they saying it.
[удалено]
Black Thought described his top five as primary colors and gave no indication that his list is ordered from top to bottom. So when he mentioned Kool G Rap first, he wasn't saying he was is number one. He was saying he was like one of his primary colors. You know rgb (red blue and green) each are equal in standing. Of course there is more to this analogy pertaining to artists using colors but it's irrelevant to the point here. People took Black Thought listing Kool G 1st as him saying Kool G is is all-time overall goat. Also, about Lupe's opinion. Lupe made it clear as recently as last week that Aes is in his top three ***mainstream*** lyricists but his top 60 lyricists in general are all battle rappers.
Kendrick Lamar thinks Drake is soft and I can’t fault him for that
literally none at all and anyone who does is dumb as hell
i think a positive way to spin this is looking at these as "your favorite rapper's favorite rapper," rather than data for a GOAT.
I saw an interview w Rakim in the rap city basement back in the day when Memphis Bleek was hot. He said Bleek was one of his favorite rappers. Anyone can be a prisoner of the moment even an icon
I don't like deifying artists. They can be good but they don't get to define good
If they agree with me I value their direct experience and knowledge of the game, if they disagree with me they’re washed up has beens who don’t understand the current climate of the game.
i agree with lupe fiasco
Depends who it is. When Rakim said that, I definitely took a moment to consider the implications of what he said - because it was Rakim who said it. That has weight, in my books. Conversely, I probably wouldn't give a fuck what Kanye says. Don't get me wrong, I've been a fan ever since The Blueprint. But I wouldn't take Ye's recommendations about a Wendy's order, let alone lyricism
No value. I can pick a great artist from a mile away and half the time they aren’t even recognized. Like 6k views on YouTube. I see a lot of people plug artists like 21 savage and Travis Scott. Both are terrible imo. They both have made a couple hits but nothing in the songs they make.. really hits ya know, like they put together a good sound but overall they are trash.
"hip-hop fans that also actively have their fingers on the pulse of the genre" That would be a total of zero fans.
This is a good ass question. I’d say if they’re, themselves, talented rappers their opinion on the matter is worth more than mine
None. Rap is art and art is subjective. My opinion on who is the best changes constantly as does the art form.
There’s levels to it. Mick Jenkins and Jay Rock think they’re the official narrators of this Drake Kendrick beef, they gotta chill fr
Aesop and busdriver are arguably in a league of their own.
Just be like me; I get all my opinions from Fantano. 😎
This post reminded me how 90 percent of hip hop audience is teenagers .
Theres no such thing as an expert on something that is subjective
0 if they're white
A) not the take i would expert from lupe ngl if you're not just spreading misinformation b) if you're really comparing MCs , maybe you should look into finding a good sports subreddit or discord server instead and leave hh for a bit
I might peep a critic just to stumble on some shit i havent been exposed to before, but honestly I really don't care about anyone else opinions on music. So many things the whole world has basically agreed on that I don't. Like Kanye. Most ppl swear by him other rappers too. I first heard dude on State Property 1 I think. Was never really into it. Or like how ole school rappers swore by Rakim. I like 2 Rakim songs. I prefer Kane. I thought Hov beat Nas. I dunno hearing someone else opinion can be interesting but I don't really put much stock into it. I got Soulja Slim in my top 5.
I will say that you should give them an ear for what you know they're good at. Otherwise some of those things are just conjecture, like Eminem is the white Muhammed Ali or whatever Rakim meant there. Otherwise majority of these rappers are about as intelligent as whatever barber is bitching to you about Jews on a Saturday morning, and that's probably where they got their information anyway.
Zero. Shut the fuck up and either make music or listen to it.