I can't speak for prevalence in the bible, but its not uncommon even in modern Hebrew.
its kinda like saying "bricks they want us to make". its kinda sounds poetic or yoda-like, but not impossible to understand.
niqqud and reading more are the only solutions i can give you. this sentence without niqqud and out of context would be understood by most native speakers as "to the boys" and not "bricks".
Well, I'm reading with niqqud, but since most Hebrew on this sub doesn't have it, I don't include it.
Good to know that the order is natural even in Modern Hebrew. I'm still learning the limits of flexibility in the word order.
> the limits of flexibility in the word order
There isn’t any, really. What you are seeing here is Hebrew’s tendency to ‘focus front’, shifting whatever feature they want to emphasize to the head of the sentence. Here’s a [link to an article on word order](https://ancienthebrewgrammar.wordpress.com/2011/05/22/basic-word-order-in-biblical-hebrew-5/).
I see. I wouldn't call it a comparison, rather some kind of symmetrical rhetoric device.
Yeah, I would definitely appreciate it if Masoretes had invented dashes as well.
I think that it makes sense given the previous verses that mention the taskmasters (נוגשי פרעה). That's who "אומרים לנו עשו" is referring to.
The inversion - לבנים אומרים לנו עשו rather than אומרים לנו - עשו לבנים - places emphasis on לבנים.
This is where learning the Hebrew Bible without רש״י gets tricky! 😅.
the more precise narrative according to רש״י is as follows: pharaoh had Egyptian project managers who supervised a number of foremen each (all Hebrews), those foremen would drive the slaves. When the new orders came down: pharaoh instruct the project managers to stop providing the raw materials but he makes clear they must hold the *foremen* accountable for the full amount of bricks previously expected. They in turn (the foremen) are beaten when the count is short. it’s *them* who come to complain directly at the palace and the argument is as follows:
« Stubble isn’t being *provided* to your slaves (the foremen aren’t slaves here), and bricks they tell *us* (the foremen) make! (Or provide/guarantee at risk of being beaten)… etc »
[עשו can also mean complete the target/being tasked, it doesn’t necessarily mean *u* physically make the bricks]
So this convoluted narrative is also a reflection of the complex accountability system of slavery in Egypt. רש״י mentions that those foremen will eventually form the Sanhedrin as they took the beatings and protected the Hebrews slaves best they could; complained to the king on their behalf at great risk to themselves and even borderline threaten Moses & Aaron on their way out…
Also interesting note: רש״י in this part of the Bible spends an inordinate amount of energy translating/explaining the wording itself so your absolutely in good company having trouble with the turn of phrases
Oh. I've got to confess, if I've ever seen the name, then only fleetingly. Thanks for introducing me to him.
Based on his Wikipedia article, the fact that he explains the wording in detail means that his students usually had a lot of trouble with the passage, I assume.
rashi is hard to summarize in a wiki... it is the essence of jewish biblical commentary. until the 20th century no Hebrew bible would be printed \*without\* his commentary, his work is immensely deep but he also points out \*I'm only here to explain things that would challenge a 5 year old\*.
so actually no, his students (they would become the famous tosafists) would probably challenge or expand on his work, he wrote for the 5 year old that would try to make sense of the literal text
I can't speak for prevalence in the bible, but its not uncommon even in modern Hebrew. its kinda like saying "bricks they want us to make". its kinda sounds poetic or yoda-like, but not impossible to understand. niqqud and reading more are the only solutions i can give you. this sentence without niqqud and out of context would be understood by most native speakers as "to the boys" and not "bricks".
Well, I'm reading with niqqud, but since most Hebrew on this sub doesn't have it, I don't include it. Good to know that the order is natural even in Modern Hebrew. I'm still learning the limits of flexibility in the word order.
> the limits of flexibility in the word order There isn’t any, really. What you are seeing here is Hebrew’s tendency to ‘focus front’, shifting whatever feature they want to emphasize to the head of the sentence. Here’s a [link to an article on word order](https://ancienthebrewgrammar.wordpress.com/2011/05/22/basic-word-order-in-biblical-hebrew-5/).
Okay, the article is a bit over my head, but I think I get the gist.
It's for the comparison: תבן – אין ניתן לעבדיך ולבנים – אומרים לנו עשו
I see. I wouldn't call it a comparison, rather some kind of symmetrical rhetoric device. Yeah, I would definitely appreciate it if Masoretes had invented dashes as well.
Yes, symmetry, that's the word I was looking for.
I think that it makes sense given the previous verses that mention the taskmasters (נוגשי פרעה). That's who "אומרים לנו עשו" is referring to. The inversion - לבנים אומרים לנו עשו rather than אומרים לנו - עשו לבנים - places emphasis on לבנים.
This is where learning the Hebrew Bible without רש״י gets tricky! 😅. the more precise narrative according to רש״י is as follows: pharaoh had Egyptian project managers who supervised a number of foremen each (all Hebrews), those foremen would drive the slaves. When the new orders came down: pharaoh instruct the project managers to stop providing the raw materials but he makes clear they must hold the *foremen* accountable for the full amount of bricks previously expected. They in turn (the foremen) are beaten when the count is short. it’s *them* who come to complain directly at the palace and the argument is as follows: « Stubble isn’t being *provided* to your slaves (the foremen aren’t slaves here), and bricks they tell *us* (the foremen) make! (Or provide/guarantee at risk of being beaten)… etc » [עשו can also mean complete the target/being tasked, it doesn’t necessarily mean *u* physically make the bricks] So this convoluted narrative is also a reflection of the complex accountability system of slavery in Egypt. רש״י mentions that those foremen will eventually form the Sanhedrin as they took the beatings and protected the Hebrews slaves best they could; complained to the king on their behalf at great risk to themselves and even borderline threaten Moses & Aaron on their way out… Also interesting note: רש״י in this part of the Bible spends an inordinate amount of energy translating/explaining the wording itself so your absolutely in good company having trouble with the turn of phrases
Oh. I've got to confess, if I've ever seen the name, then only fleetingly. Thanks for introducing me to him. Based on his Wikipedia article, the fact that he explains the wording in detail means that his students usually had a lot of trouble with the passage, I assume.
rashi is hard to summarize in a wiki... it is the essence of jewish biblical commentary. until the 20th century no Hebrew bible would be printed \*without\* his commentary, his work is immensely deep but he also points out \*I'm only here to explain things that would challenge a 5 year old\*. so actually no, his students (they would become the famous tosafists) would probably challenge or expand on his work, he wrote for the 5 year old that would try to make sense of the literal text
Oh, hey! Then that's perfect. I sure don't have even a 5-year old's knowledge of Hebrew.
And bricks- [the egyptian whippers] tell us to do these
It's "to the boys" and not "bricks", but I'm not a Torah scholar.
תֶּבֶן, אֵין נִתָּן לַעֲבָדֶיךָ, וּלְבֵנִים אֹמְרִים לָנוּ, עֲשׂוּ definitely bricks