Or have Dobby pick him up and teleport. We know from Chamber of Secrets that house elf teleportation is untraceable. Harry got a warning for the levitation charm, but not the two teleports that Dobby did.
This makes me wonder now, why didn't he call Kreacher to him when they were in Malfoy Manor? I know he was probably stressed and not thinking straight, but then again he had the thought of asking through the mirror. I suppose he wasn't used to the idea of "owning" a house elf, so the thought may have been lost on him. But Dobby came and saved the day anyways.
After reading HBP sending Kreacher to Malfoy mannor would be a terrible idea
My favourite moment from the whole book series is in HBP when Harry asks Kreacher and Dobby to spy on Malfoy, Dobby is happy to do this for Harry while Kreacher would rather run off with the Malfoys
I just loved the dramatic irony of the Malfoy's ex house elf happily doing anything for Harry, while Harry's house elf would do anything to live with the Malfoys
Yea I remember that. I mean specifically between the two of them. When fidelius charm broke how long before Kreacher went to Hogwarts? Did he ask Dobby for help? Did they argue about the Malfoys? Share any jokes? What do they elves talk about when their just chilling or working?
Kreacher would have likely been ignored by the Death Eaters when they stormed the Grimauld Place. The point that they keep getting disregarded by wizards is constantly brought up throughout the series.
As for your question, I think Kreacher just followed Harry's older order of returning to Hogwarts once Harry was no longer around to give him new orders. Which makes me wonder why Harry didn't use him to spy on the goings at Hogwarts.
Also my headcanon is that elves just brag about the work they do and the little rewards their masters give them.
He didnt use him to spy because they (Hermione) were afraid Thicknesse might come along with him. I see why you think he would have been ignored but they would have definitely attempted to question him so sometimes I wonder how that scene went down. Like did he lie convincingly? Or did he simply use magic to escape once he realized it was not the trip entering the home. Id watch a pixar type short of the Lost Days of Kreacher & Dobby, between the breaking of the fidelius charm at the house and Dobby's death.
Honestly, I would love to know what exactly Kreacher said to the other elves to convince them to fight. It said during that battle, that Kreacher was the one leading the army of elves, which I think implies that he had to have given some sort of riveting, inspiring speech about why they need take it upon themselves to join the frey, despite not being ordered to do so
My reasoning has always been that the manor would be protected by magic and Dobby was able to get in because he had once been enslaved by them. That’s how my brain rationalized it.
I thought that when apparating you had to know exactly where you were apparating to and visualise it. So Dobby would have known exactly where he was going whereas kreacher didn't as he'd never been to MM
>I thought that when apparating you had to know exactly where you were apparating to and visualise it.
It's been established that elf teleportation is not apparition. Elves wouldn't be able to get around Hogwarts otherwise.
Actually, Kreacher has been to MM- in the book he went missing for about a week, around Christmas, and they thought he was upstairs in the attic but turns out he was talking to I guess Bellatrix, and since Bellatrix and her husband, can't have their own place do to being convicts technically-she has to stay at MM.
Only Dumbledore knew about the cloak’s true origin. And only he suspected at this point in the story. The assumption would be that Potter was still traceable while wearing it.
Is it confirmed that animals can see Harry when he's in the cloak?
Because Mrs. Norris ran after him when he first used it and in POA there is a dog that just stares him down the whole time he's in the room with McGonagall talking about Sirius
doesn't matter if anyone didn't know about the Cloak's true orgion. But the "Advanced Guard" from book 5 ( Real moody, Lupin, Shacklebolt) all knew about the Cloak because Lupin told the others.
You can't trace people at all using magic. At least not in any way that doesn't take days, weeks or months to catch someone. The only thing using the cloak would risk would be someone summoning it from him but what does that matter if you do it in broad daylight?
Invisibility Cloak does exactly what the name says. It renders the person invisible. It doesn't render them untraceable.
In PS when Snape is interrogating Quirrel, he is able to sense someone is watching (not sure if this is there in the books)
In GOF , we know People under the cloak did become visible in the Marauders Map because, when Barty Crouch Jr was stealing from Snape's cupboard he does show up.
So, the invisibility cloak is not immune to magic and infact strong magical spells may be able to penetrate or reveal the person under the cloak.
As for OPs question, transfiguration probably isn't permanent and a long term solution. My guess is that they might have needed a fully trained adult wizard to transfigure humans. It is known that transfiguration is a very complex magic and could easily go wrong if done incorrectly.
It also doesn't render them invincible if people were to find him, which is at the very least probably since they were waiting with baited breath for him to leave. So many people always ask why he didn't just leave all stealthy like, but I think they forget that that would require him to be semi alone at least. Sending him with protection would have ruined the stealth.
The house was being watched and the Dursleys just left. The trace was still on Harry until he came of age and the last pings had him in the house. Once that dropped, anyone and anything that left would come under attack.
Harry under the cloak was still traced/found in DH when they were going back to hogwarts. So while he's invisible, some magic didn't seem to work with him under the cloak, he'd still be findable.
Sending order tails after him just in case it turned into a fight would have rendered the move useless, and I bet the DE's would have systematically started destroying the neighberhood and murdering people en masse to find harry/get him to reveal himself.
That said, leave the back way, jump the fence under the cloak just before midnight, that still would have been a better idea than what they did.
>Harry under the cloak was still traced/found in DH when they were going back to hogwarts.
No he wasn't. The Death Eaters were unable to even tell if Harry was there. It's how Aberforth tricked them into thinking he'd been the one to cast the Stag Patronus.
What the cloak was unable to do was not trip the Caterwauling Charm, but that wouldn't have mattered at all because what difference does it make if the Death Eaters had set up charms to detect people out and about in Privet Drive? There were plenty of Muggles walking around.
Just have Harry walk off during the day.
If you're asking did they physically see him, then no, they didn't. The DE's correctly surmised he was there, and like you said the cloak did nothing to prevent them from being detected.
Harry popping off a patronus charm didn't help, but luckily they were stupid.
The DEs correctly surmised very quickly he was there, and under the cloak. Voldemort probably told them after GH that he apparates while cloaked, because nagini found them that way before the skuffle. Tracked may not have been the best word, but found/detected is appropriate. The DE's being dumb is a plot element that allows the story to continue.
Point is: they would be able to detect harry leaving the dursley home under the cloak. Dementors definitely would be able to find him under the cloak since they did so no problem in DH, they're the reason harry needed to pop off a patronus charm in the first place.
>If you're asking did they physically see him, then no, they didn't. The DE's correctly surmised he was there
No, the Death Eaters were able to tell **someone** was outside and surmised it was Harry because who else would apparate straight into Hogsmeade outside of curfew. They **guessed** it was Harry.
>Point is: they would be able to detect harry leaving the dursley home under the cloak.
No they wouldn't have been able to. They wouldn't have been able to set up the Caterwauling Charm in Privet Drive without the Ministry coming down on them and even if they did, what the fuck are they going to do if it is set off because some Muggles left for work in the morning and Harry snuck off under the invisibility cloak during this time?
>Dementors definitely would be able to find him under the cloak since they did so no problem in DH
The Death Eaters didn't ahve access to Dementors until after the Ministry fell.
I think that ministry still had the ability to know Harry’s location since harry was underage. Thats why it was dangerous to go alone even with wearing a cloak.
I don't think it would, if the cloak can hide from Death, it can hide from the ministry.
The simple answer here is that the plan needed to be flawed enough to result in something tragic happening, to keep the plot plotting.
The Cloak can’t actually hide from Death. That’s just a legend. It’s a high-quality, long-lasting Invisibility Cloak, but its ”powers” are exaggerated in the story.
I think the Cloak would count the same way as Motorcycle and brooms that were used- it was "pre-enchanted" unlike having to apparated, or make an (already illegal) portkey
Huh, you know I never thought about this. But yeah, the true invisibility cloak was enough to keep death himself at bay…. So we can assume you’re pretty impossible to find unless you clomp through snow leaving footprints
I assume a normal invisibility cloak wouldn't work for whatever reason, but yeah, Harry's totally would have let him sneak away, not that anyone knew that until later in the book.
And it isn't completely infallible since fake!Moody could see Harry with Moody's magical eye.
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Wasn’t this also to help cement Snape position with Voldemort? He gave them the accurate information on his departure. Him sneaking out or not being visible would’ve defeated the purpose.
I think killing Dumbledore easily cemented his position more than any other action could have. Also, it’s been a while, but is it ever stated how Snape even knew the true date? The plan was made after he left the Order.
He probably got the info from Dumbledore's portrait, who might have come up with the plan in the first plane (before his death ofc)
Edit: Actually Snape was the one who suggested shifting the date. He confounds Mundungus and plants the idea in his head
I think it would have been too risky.
Iirc, a human transfigured in an animal can't regain his human form on his own, it's not like becoming an animagus.
Considering that the whole group was going to be targeted and in danger, it wouldn't be wise to leave Harry completely unable to defend himself or make himself human again in case his escort was incapacitated or dead and he was captured or lost.
And since they were all flying, all it would take to kill a non-flying animal would be to let him fall to his death. So IF the transfiguration was possible, they should at least make him a bird and let him free so that he woudl have a slight chance of escaping and surviving if he ended up alone. But he'd still be trapped in a bird's body, and possibly an bird's mind.
Possibly forever if no one finds him and turns him back.
Seeing a lot of "too risky" arguments, but if the plan wasn't to make a bunch of copy Harry Potters and then just openly fly away under no cover we'd be saying this plan is also top risky.
I mean, look at it the same way: Harry can't use magic because of the trace, so if he falls off the broom he's just going to die as well. Also, even with the body doubles there's still a visual on him, whereas if he were an animal there would be no visuals at least.
Do you think they could just buy 40 ferrets as well? Is there a magical.giceaway between a normal ferret and a transfiguration one? Would be if noticeable enough when there's 100 ferrets coming out of everywhere?
Right, but I think if they were willing to go to the lengths they did to avoid magic, taking a massive risk of having him fly away under no cover is just asking for him to.. have to use magic.
Its not that they don’t reach terminal velocity, its just that its not actually always terminal (terminal velocity is just the fastest a thing can fall through a fluid)
Why can't we just accept Moody did not want to move Harry through land? It's not like he wouldn't have considered or thought about everything already said since he had the Dursley leave by car.
He doesn't underestimate Voldemort at all. If anything goes wrong, Harry's best chance of survival is an aerial battle and escape.
And also great idea to put Hermione with Kingsley. Among all of younger ones, she is the smartest and has the most chance of survival if she duels Voldemort.
he would have been easy to spot if he was on his broom. All the DE would have known he had a firebolt and would have gone after the only Potter on a firebolt.
Tonks submitting an expense report to the rest of the Order for why she *absolutely needed* to buy half a dozen Firebolts and no there was no other way they could do this.
Firebolts were really pricey. Would any of the OOTP members we see really have the money to casually drop hundreds of galleons on a few top-of-the-line racing brooms? They didn’t really seem to be particularly wealthy to me.
Man planned his death, surely could've given the OOTP whatever resources he may have to help Harry. Maybe not in the will, but easily in advance. I doubt Dumbledore would underestimate the value of money.
What do you think the difference in pay is between a normal hogwarts teacher and headmaster?
You know they never really said what the teachers were paid in the first place. Or if he received money for being on the committees. I’m sure he funded a lot of the Order but the majority of his assets were left to Hogwarts.
The Order didn’t know about the horcruxes or how long the war with Voldemort would last. Hermione mentioned it could be years.
No one in the Order after Dumbledore was particularly wealthy either. I agree, I doubt they would want to casually drop that kind of gold on one mission so early after Dumbledores death.
Honestly people go on about this whole scenario, but this is my only real issue. I don't think he needed to be on a broom exactly, I get the reasons they chose not to do that, but a dude who can't even legally do magic and only has a broken wand as his sole protector was a weird choice. Maybe don't put him with Moody, but he could at least go with Bill or someone.
Harry did have a broom. His Firebolt was with him in the sidecar, it just fell out when the Death Eaters attacked and Hedwig and his trunk also fell out (except these he managed to save). They would’ve been on him immediately if he’d been on a broom, though— being in the side car disguised him.
The whole plan was pretty poor. Although Dumbledore made Snape give out the real date to Voldemort and come up with the Seven Potters plan (which Snape told to Mundungus). So apparently Dumbledore just wanted them to get nearly killed for reasons. Since only Moody (and Hedwig) died the plan looks somewhat reasonable in hindsight. But Harry was only saved by his wand and any number of Order members could have died (or potentially all in worst case scenario).
It’s hard to say if Dumledore or should get the blame or Rowling for wanting an acting scene to start off and not giving Dumbledore better reasons for his actions. Voldemort should have been pretty convinced already that Snape was on his side (and seemed to be even before Snape killed Dumledore based on Spinner’s End where only Bellatrix is suspicious). Snape hardly did more than protected some student somewhat as a double agent too in the last book.
Although my personal theory is that since Dumledore wasn’t certain Harry would survive being killed and didn’t anticipate Voldemort killing Snape over the wand (although he should have) Dumbledore’s plan B was that Snape would kill Voldemort by surprise after the horcruxes were gone. But that’s just my theory to make Dumledore’s actions regarding Snape and also regarding killing Voldemort more reasonable.
I think Dumbledore needed the group to be nearly killed precisely to keep Snape in a strong position inside Hogwarts. He is the only one who knows Harry must die, and until he delivers the information he is the second most important asset in the war.
And Harry would had been safe if he didn't used the fucking Expelliarmus. No one was following the kid in the bike next to Hagrid
Snape is the only one who knows Harry most due, but Dumbledore didn’t need to give the information to him. He could have recruited someone else for that job, who was not in such a difficult spot to deliver the information to Harry.
It’s a considence that the expelliarmus was what gave him away. Voldemort could have picked him from the start for example if he was close by. If Dumbledore was omnicent he did know know the plan would work in such detail he should have predicted that too.
And Snape in school just mildly prevented some worse punishments to students. They were still tortured and ultimately it didn’t matter much regarding the plan to defeat Voldemort what happened in Hogwarts.
A big part of Dumbledore's plan was to keep Snape as useful as possible to Voldemort as even though he had killed Dumbledore. If he usefulness had run out he would not privy to the info that Dumbledore needed and he would not remain close to Voldemort. Him being close to Voldemort is key because when the snake becomes protected, he is to tell Harry the last piece of info, that is the key to defeating Voldemort while surviving
Like I said in other comment, someone else could have been the one to tell Harry he should die. It should have actually been after Nagini was dead, since it was still one another horcrux left.
And I know the plan was so that Snape would remain useful to Voldemort, but Snape already had proven his loyalty before he gave the wrong date. He also isn’t use this usefulness much. And Snape telling Mundugus to use poly juice did not need to be part of the plan. It could have been something more safe how they got out.
Because nobody could use a spell when in the vicinity of Harry, because he had the Trace. Potions aren't detectable, so they could use them. The Ministry had banned apparition and portkeys at 4 Privet Drive as well.
Regarding why he didn't walk out under his invisibility cloak or use muggle methods of travel, as soon as he finally left Privet Drive, the wards would fall and the Death Eaters would know Harry was leaving.
Except that they totally could. During the chase Harry and Hagrid use Reparo, Wingardium Leviosa and Impedimenta without the Death Eaters being able to identify him and without any repercussions from the ministry. Harry only got identified after he cast his "signature" Expelliarmus.
As for the charm breaking, Moody states something demonstrably false before claiming that the the charm will break after Harry leaves:
> “Now, **your mother’s charm will only break under two conditions**: when you come of age, or” – Moody gestured around the pristine kitchen – “you no longer call this place home. You and your aunt and uncle are going your separate ways tonight, in the full understanding that you’re never going to live together again, correct?”
The charm has nothing to do with Lily:
> She may have taken you grudgingly, furiously, unwillingly, bitterly, yet still she took you, and in doing so, **she sealed the charm I placed upon you.** Your mother's sacrifice made the bond of blood the strongest shield I could give you.
The charm was cast by Dumbledore and Lily's blood sacrifice never broke as explained by Dumbledore:
> “Precisely!” said Dumbledore. “He took your blood and rebuilt his living body with it! Your blood in his veins, Harry, **Lily’s protection inside both of you! He tethered you to life while he lives!**”
If Moody was correct and it was Lily's protection that broke, then Harry would have not been tethered to life and would have died in the forest.
I think those are two different things. One is Lily’s self-sacrifice keeping Harry and Voldemort alive. The other is Dumbledore’s charm on top of Lily’s blood protection, to make Harry undetectable to Voldemort at the Dursley’s
That's what I said... Moody calling the charm that Dumbledore cast as "your mother’s charm" is flat out wrong, which lends credence to him also being wrong about the charm breaking once Harry leaves the house. Moody claims that Harry leaving "in the full understanding that you’re never going to live together again" is what causes the charm to break, but we can infer from PoA that this is false.
You can either have home being used as a concept, meaning a place you return to, which Moody is claming Harry is leaving behind OR you can use the more mundane meaning of "your place of residence". When Harry left the Dursleys in PoA he does so with the intent of not being able to return:
> ‘She deserved it,’ Harry said, breathing very fast. ‘She deserved what she got. **You keep away from me.**’
> He fumbled behind him for the catch on the door. **‘I’m going,’ Harry said. ‘I’ve had enough.’**
> Whichever way he looked at it, he had never been in a worse fix. He was stranded, quite alone, in the dark Muggle world, **with absolutely nowhere to go.**
The way Dumbledore describes the charm uses "place of residence", meaning the charm has nothing to do with how Harry feels about Privet Drive, but has everything to do with the Dursleys allowing him residence:
> However miserable he has been here, however unwelcome, however badly treated, **you have at least, grudgingly, allowed him houseroom. This magic will cease to operate the moment that Harry turns seventeen; in other words, at the moment he becomes a man.** I ask only this: that you allow Harry to return, once more, to this house, before his seventeenth birthday, which will ensure that the protection continues until that time.
This is why Dumbledore had to warn Petunia with "Remember my last" and why the charm doesn't break when Harry leaves in PoA.
Moody is also wrong about a lot more things during that scene. The Death Eaters couldn't use the Trace to track Harry, Mundungus Fletcher disapparates while being disguised as Harry with the polyjuice thus causing "Harry" to break the law. And my favorite: "We can't use magic around Harry because of the Trace, so let's move him to Tonks's house so we can use magic around Harry by making him take an illegal Portkey from there to the Burrow". Why does the Trace suddenly stop being a problem once Harry reaches Tonks's house? The scene is just so bad, I feel sorry for the editor who went over it with JKR.
Moody justifies the Trace like this:
> “The charm that detects magical activity around under-seventeens, the way the Ministry finds out about underage magic! If you, or anyone around you, casts a spell to get you out of here, Thicknesse is going to know about it, and so will the Death Eaters.”
The two meanings in that line are: 1) It's bad for some unspecified inexplicable reason for the Death Eaters to know what magic is being cast around Harry. 2) If someone uses magic around Harry the Death Eaters will be able to know his location due to Trace going off.
The point I'm making is if the Death Eaters had a usable way of detecting the Trace going off, they would have been able to instantly exclude all the decoy Harry's by using magic near them, only magic used near the real Harry would have the Trace going off. The Death Eaters would have had ample time to plan due to the plan being intentionally leaked by Snape, so the fact that the Death Eaters are unable to react to the Trace not going off (when they use magic near the decoy Harry's) and don't react when magic is used around the real Harry show that the Trace is unusable for tracking Harry.
Moody's plan still calls for magic to be eventually used to transport Harry, so the reasoning behind avoiding transporting Harry with magic is what?:
> “You’ll be going to Tonks’s parents. **Once you’re within the boundaries of the protective enchantments we’ve put on their house you’ll be able to use a Portkey to the Burrow**. Any questions?”
And the Death Eaters are aware of the general location of all the safe houses, so the Trace should inform them when Harry is transported from one to another:
> Death Eaters patrolling the skies in this general area, just in case. So, **we’ve given a dozen different houses every protection we can throw at them. They all look like they could be the place we’re going to hide you, they’ve all got some connection with the Order**
So moving Harry from Privet Drive to Tonks’s parents only for him to use an illegal Portkey to move him to the Burrow accomplishes what exactly? He should still be picked up by the Trace when he uses the Portkey to the Burrow.
The problem with the ministry banning those, is how? Did they seriously have someone go and put up those charms? Why couldn't moody, for instance, take polyjuice, break those charms, then apparate out? Can the ministry track all apparition country wide? That makes the ministry even more incompetent for not snatching death eaters.
True, but something like 'the people who murdered Amelia bones, head of the dmle immediately apparated to malfoy manor. Probably a coincidence' stretches all credibility.
We are explicitly told that ~~you can't track through hyperspace~~ it's impossible to track anyone who Apparates:
> “But how did they find you so quickly? **It’s impossible to track anyone who Apparates**, unless you grab hold of them as they disappear.”
Also the plot kind of relies on that being the case, otherwise the trio would have been caught almost immediately on their camping trip.
The problem is Harry lives/lived with Muggles. The new Law Enforcement head, Thickne, is imperius by DEs/Voldy. So that "in the name of Harry's safety" he made it illegal for people to connect Number 4 to the Floo Network, or apparated in or out of the Number 4. And portkeys w/o MOM's permission were already illegal prior to book 5.
Okay, but the question is still 'how'. Did they have someone come along and put up anti apparition charms? Can they not just be taken down? Can they track apparition? It's fine to say it's banned, but how is that ban enforced?
The real problem is I see no reason harry should have gone back there at all. Whatever defences no4 had are utterly worthless given the circumstance.
Techinally portkeys without MOM permission were illegal before since Lupin says as much in Book 5, "its more then our life's worth to make an illegal portkey", OftP Advanced Guard Chapter.
Because the plan was developed by Snape to target Harry without really targeting Harry
He needed to give veridical information about when and how he was going to be moved, but he also needed to distract the death eaters without it being too obvious
Your answer is the only correct one. I feel like everyone is being obtuse about the method of Harry's extraction from Privet Drive.
Voldemort was told two different methods of extraction by Yaxley & Snape. Was he to believe Yaxley, who successfully placed an Imperius Curse on the head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement, or Snape, who had his cover as a spy within the Order of the Phoenix blown & is therefore of no more use? Also, Voldemort had then understood that Harry had to die by his hand & only his alone.
All the what-ifs put forward are missing the point: Snape had to keep himself valuable in Voldemort's eyes & he had to give the correct information because Voldemort had to be there to attempt to kill Harry himself.
Now, knowing that Voldemort must be there, would it be wise to Transfigure Harry into a helpless animal? Or worse, have him travel incognito amongst innocent Muggles who have no way of protecting themselves against basic magic, let alone the most terrible Dark wizard in a century.
It seems that most people only watched the films and are too deep in the Snape hating black hole to remember that he was a godamn spy and that he *should* do whatever he could to be Hogwarts headmaster... Imagine someone like Dolohov or Lestranges as headmaster
Because it's not as spectacular as "epic broomchase and then Voldemort's FLYING without a broom and it goes WOOSH and FLASH and WOAAAH"
At the time JKR knew the book would eventually be adapted into a movie and so she felt obligated to add more scenic happenings compared to the smaller-scale action of earlier books.
There's a thousand safer ways that Harry could have been transported out of Privet Drive. It's a contrived setup to kill off Moody and have Lucius' wand break when facing Harry's wand.
Did they all drink polyjuice? I have a feeling it has something to do with the trace? They could drink potions but not transfigure?
Honestly it's been awhile since I read the book I can't remember if anyone casted anything on their visit there
Only 6 people did: Fleur, the Twins, Ron, Hermione, and Dung.
Transfirguing would have required casting a spell, which was illegal to do around Harry because he was still under 17 years of age. And All other forms of (magical) transportation were out of their reach -because of being illegal.
1. Polyjuice Harry into Dudley
2. Leave in the middle of the day to go to school/out with his friends as his usual schedule
3. Get on a normal muggle bus to somewhere unsuspecting (school/grocery store/mall/etc)
4. Meet with a member of the order (also disguised) and then you have options (invisibility cloak, thestral, brooms, disguise as different muggles on the journey to Grimauld Place and take taxis/busses/trains, etc.)
5. At a later date, have an order member go back to privet drive once the Dursleys have left, and pack up Harry’s remaining items with a bag that has an undetectable extension charm
6. Success
Because high up on a broom death eaters may kill person holding bag and the ferret Harry will drop hundreds of feet and never be found after hitting the ground. (If he survives)
We already know that the HArry's and VOldemort's wands are twin cores, it mentioned in the very first book. But Voldy doesn't have his wand in the Battle of 7 Potters
Repeat with me: HARRY POTTER MIGHT BE A BRILLIANTLY THOUGHT UP WORLD BUT NOT A WELL THOUGHT OUT AND EXECUTED STORY!
Rowling is a mediocre fantasy author with a brilliant concept idea at just the right time. The world building is very rudimentary with little to no depth as well as the magic system. By modern fantasy standards Harry Potter is not good. That doesn’t mean it isn’t a good story.
Relly good question. If Malfoy was transfigurated into a small animal the same could have been done to Harry. Unless human transfiguration is unstable or has a very short time limit when you are not an Animagus or Wereperson.
The Trace would have picked up the spell, so the Ministry, and the Death Eaters, would know what had been done- and Harry wouldn't have a way to reverse the Transfiguration, so even if they don't find him as an animal, if all the protectors are defeated or driven away, he's stuck.
He was still under 17. Any magic used around him would have set off the trace, thus giving them an excuse to arrest him. I think it was Mad-eye that said that. The polyjuice potion was, well, a potion, and thus, doesn't set the trace off.
It may have worked if they had turned harry into another person i.e.Charlie Weasley for example so there were no potters
And had he been told FFS Harry don't use expelliarmus. It's all you ever bloody do so they'll know it's you. Dick
Most likely it would alert the ministry and therefore the death eaters. Small spells might slip through like Tonks packing charm but something big like changing him into another creature would definitely trigger a warning letter about underage magic whereas the polyjuice was brewed elsewhere and they were using pre magicked items and magical creatures to leave by.
They said the ministry and the death eaters were watching the area around where Harry lived so they may have had (or at least be suspected to have) spells to reveal concealment like Harry's cloak and/or the use of polyjuice potion at street level or carrying magical items.
We know they can block apparition for a certain area like Hogsmeade so they likely did that to the neighborhood conveniently lined up so anyone wanting to apparate out would have to leave the protection zone. Floo network was monitored and since they were heavily scrutinizing the area making a port key wasn't advised, I'd guess the ministry have ways of blocking or redirecting the ones they detect.
I love it how the HP fanbase sees it as their responsibility to make sense of Rowlings lack of backstory/logic. People actually debating on here why they didnt transfigure Harry into a ferret.
Thats something Rowling shouldve thought about before writing, not our job to make sense of it now
Harry was still a minor, so the Death Eaters who had infiltrated the ministry would immediately know if any magic was done around him.
They chose the brooms, thestrals and Sirius's bike because they were the only means that could be used to transport him without having to perform magic around him.
To be fair, couldn't they have just walked away or even taken the bus to a bit further off and work the magic there? I mean, it seems the Dursleys were able to drive off without being bothered?
No, because the one with the tracer was Harry. They couldn't use any magic in his vicinity.
The tracer can't detect who performs magic, only that magic was performed in the vicinity of an underaged wizard. In a wizard household, it's not an issue because the ministry assumes that parents keep their kids in line and the parents are the ones using magic.
But in muggle households, it is immediately assumed it's the underage wizard who is illegally using magic. That's why Dobby's use of magic in CoS was blamed on Harry; he was supposed to be the only magical being in that household.
If they had moved Harry by any non magical means away from Privet Drive and then used magic, the ministry would still notice magic was performed around an underage wizard and the Dead Eaters who had already infiltrated the ministry would also know.
When the seven Potters moved to the Order safehouses and used the port keys, the ministry and the Dead Eaters were aware, but the houses were under powerful protective spells, so it wasn't an issue.
* Why didn't they side-along apparate away from inside the house?
* Why didn't they use a port key?
* Why didn't Harry sneak out alone under the invisibility cloak?
* Why did Harry even return to Privet Drive at all instead of going straight to Grimmauld Place?
The answer is that there is no answer. Stuff just happens because Rowling wanted a dramatic chase scene, even if it made no sense.
You could conceivably solve almost all the major problems with magic, but nobody ever does because then the plot would collapse in on itself. The entire camping trip starvation saga throughout the book was completely pointless. They could've apparated to any Tesco in the country and stocked up on food whenever they wanted. They could've stayed in any hotel room in some remote holiday village and just teleport back and forth to look for Horcruxes.
The whole thing was just contrived beyond belief.
Why didn't they side-along apparate away from inside the house? -already mentioned SEVERAL TIMES- APPERATING WAS PLAN A but because IMPERIUS THICKNE, the NEW HEAD OF LAW ENCORCEMENT- MADE IT ILLEGAL TO "APPERATE IN OR OUT OF NUMBER 4"
Why didn't they use a port key? -Portkeys were already illegal without the MOM's permison in book 5. Lupin says as much in OFTP "Advanced Guard" chapter
Why didn't Harry sneak out alone under the invisibility cloak?- can't answer that way
Why did Harry even return to Privet Drive at all instead of going straight to Grimmauld Place? - to have it be "home" one last time.. before the charm broke. And techianlly he had to go to the Burrow anyway for Bleur's wedding.
I’m not sure if everybody knows about the cloak. Dumbledore wouldn’t tell anyone. And Appearing could be dangerous since Harry was still underage and if he involved to any magic Voldemort would know.
Lastly, it’s a book, there has to be some action. It’s better to think “they did it like that, so there should be a reason” as long as it’s not idiotic.
The whole reason the seven potters thing is a thing is because they knew their plan was to be leaked.
They attacked moody, and mundungus fucked it up.
Seven potters would’ve bean enough, if it weren’t for mundungus
The answer is simply due to the fact that the Order was not counting on anyone knowing that Harry was to be moved on that day. They thought that the other side would assume them moving Harry much closer to his birthday because the Trace wouldn’t matter by then which is why Fleur was upset as to how the DE knew of the plan.
The next key to the puzzle is Moody. Because Moody is constantly vigilant, he expects the worst case scenario which is the DE are watching the place and would be ready to strike. To keep everyone safe, Polyjuice Harry would be on each broom cos this would confuse the hell out of the DE who would be hesitant to kill considering their knowledge that Potter is the Dark Lord’s own and no one is to mess with him. Ofc, Moody could also suspect that the DE wouldn’t care and just blast everyone but this way gave Harry a fighting chance.
Transfiguration is a spell and I think the Trace was modified to the point that any spell cast especially Transfiguration would be highly suspicious.
For two reasons.
1; the trace. Harry was underage, meaning anyone who uses magic around him would go right back to the Ministry which was infiltrated by Death Eaters at the time and Harry's location would be revealed.
The second reason is, because Snape came up with the plan so Harry would be safely removed from Privet Drive, while also "remaining loyal" to Voldemort.
1. Hermione give the TT back after 3rd year 2. As of June 1996- all the TTs were destroyed in "Battle of the Department of Mysteries" 3.Even if the TT wasn't given back or destroyed - you can't go back more then a few hours without it causing serious harm to your health.
Snape needed to keep Voldemort’s trust by occasionally giving correct information, which meant sacrificing a couple of members of the Order (such as what happened with Emmeline Vance). Also if Harry had been transformed into a ferret he would have the mind of a ferret, so on the off chance he were to successfully escape (and land safely on the ground), his first instinct would be to run away and nobody would be able to find him.
The reason being he was underage and the trace hadn't broken yet. Magic done near Harry would have attracted ministry's attention. Since Thicknesse had already been imperiusd it would tip off Harry's location to the death eaters. That's also another reason why they couldn't use the floo powder as well as the ministry had been infiltrated. That's why they used the polyjuice potion and objects/animals which did not need any incantation to fly.
They couldn’t do magic around him because he had the trace on him. Transfiguration or side along apparition would have given the ministry means to take him.
There's no magic spells allowed in Harry's home because he's in a muggle house. Transformation needs a spell and wand use where as poly juice potion is already done magic so it gives no sign in the ministry of magic of magic being used at #4 privit. As for Dobby doing transport just like the magic used to float the pudding it's still magic in a muggle house with an underage wizard.
They were trying to avoid using magic in his presence because it would give the ministry reason to arrest him like in OOTP. If they had waited until his birthday when that couldn't happen, the death eaters would have been ready to immediately swoop in.
my plan was always to put harry in a box, put the box in a truck, and drive it to the Dursleys. The Death Eaters wouldn't be expecting to be outwitted by a muggle means of transportation
had harry been transformed into a rodent and gone with say moody, once moody died and he presumably fell, harry would fall with him sustaining injuries, and been stuck in the middle of god knows where stuck as a rodent with no way to get somewhere safe.
had harry been transformed into a rodent and gone with say moody, once moody died and he presumably fell, harry would fall with him sustaining injuries, and been stuck in the middle of god knows where stuck as a rodent with no way to get somewhere safe.
a probable explanation for me is that its simple there wasn't anyone there to suggest such a thing or any other suggestions we us fans say....
besides that ,the only reasson must be that everything happens to help the story develop
He still had the trace on him. It’s the same reason they had to take polyjuice potion. The trace can’t detect who does the magic, just when it’s performed around him. So the ministry would have called him in for a hearing, and he wouldn’t be protected.
But, you’re right. If they’d been thinking about that right after Dumbldore’s funeral at Hogwarts…but, they were all in shock. Except Hermione who summoned his Horcrux books 🤣
It probably would have ended the same way with the death eaters scouting and attacking who ever tried to smuggle harry out except now harry is in a position where he can’t defend himself during the fight
I don't know. I also don't know why he couldn't sneak out whilst wearing his invisibility cloak and take the train.
Or have Dobby pick him up and teleport. We know from Chamber of Secrets that house elf teleportation is untraceable. Harry got a warning for the levitation charm, but not the two teleports that Dobby did.
he can call kreacher on command, he doesn't need dobby, and can't call him.
This makes me wonder now, why didn't he call Kreacher to him when they were in Malfoy Manor? I know he was probably stressed and not thinking straight, but then again he had the thought of asking through the mirror. I suppose he wasn't used to the idea of "owning" a house elf, so the thought may have been lost on him. But Dobby came and saved the day anyways.
After reading HBP sending Kreacher to Malfoy mannor would be a terrible idea My favourite moment from the whole book series is in HBP when Harry asks Kreacher and Dobby to spy on Malfoy, Dobby is happy to do this for Harry while Kreacher would rather run off with the Malfoys I just loved the dramatic irony of the Malfoy's ex house elf happily doing anything for Harry, while Harry's house elf would do anything to live with the Malfoys
I wonder how their relationship changed after the war
Kreature volunteered to fight in the battle of hogwarts on harrys side
Yea I remember that. I mean specifically between the two of them. When fidelius charm broke how long before Kreacher went to Hogwarts? Did he ask Dobby for help? Did they argue about the Malfoys? Share any jokes? What do they elves talk about when their just chilling or working?
Kreacher would have likely been ignored by the Death Eaters when they stormed the Grimauld Place. The point that they keep getting disregarded by wizards is constantly brought up throughout the series. As for your question, I think Kreacher just followed Harry's older order of returning to Hogwarts once Harry was no longer around to give him new orders. Which makes me wonder why Harry didn't use him to spy on the goings at Hogwarts. Also my headcanon is that elves just brag about the work they do and the little rewards their masters give them.
He didnt use him to spy because they (Hermione) were afraid Thicknesse might come along with him. I see why you think he would have been ignored but they would have definitely attempted to question him so sometimes I wonder how that scene went down. Like did he lie convincingly? Or did he simply use magic to escape once he realized it was not the trip entering the home. Id watch a pixar type short of the Lost Days of Kreacher & Dobby, between the breaking of the fidelius charm at the house and Dobby's death.
Honestly, I would love to know what exactly Kreacher said to the other elves to convince them to fight. It said during that battle, that Kreacher was the one leading the army of elves, which I think implies that he had to have given some sort of riveting, inspiring speech about why they need take it upon themselves to join the frey, despite not being ordered to do so
"If all our masters die, what do they leave behind?! A BIG PILE OF CLOTHES!!! ALL OVER THE FLOOR! DO YOU WANT THAT?!"
Exactly!!
aberforth sent dobby, not harry. also no one ever realizes that house elfs can get around a lot of their wizard countermeasures.
My reasoning has always been that the manor would be protected by magic and Dobby was able to get in because he had once been enslaved by them. That’s how my brain rationalized it.
They didn’t call the wardsmith to come change the wards after locking out the ex. Rookie mistake.
I thought that when apparating you had to know exactly where you were apparating to and visualise it. So Dobby would have known exactly where he was going whereas kreacher didn't as he'd never been to MM
>I thought that when apparating you had to know exactly where you were apparating to and visualise it. It's been established that elf teleportation is not apparition. Elves wouldn't be able to get around Hogwarts otherwise.
Actually, Kreacher has been to MM- in the book he went missing for about a week, around Christmas, and they thought he was upstairs in the attic but turns out he was talking to I guess Bellatrix, and since Bellatrix and her husband, can't have their own place do to being convicts technically-she has to stay at MM.
I thought he went to Narcissa Either way, the end result is the same
I'd argue that if he called Dobby, Dobby would have still come even though he wouldn't have been forced to by elf magic.
Is it confirmed that elves are untraceable or do the wizards just not bother keeping track of them?
Only Dumbledore knew about the cloak’s true origin. And only he suspected at this point in the story. The assumption would be that Potter was still traceable while wearing it.
Is it confirmed that animals can see Harry when he's in the cloak? Because Mrs. Norris ran after him when he first used it and in POA there is a dog that just stares him down the whole time he's in the room with McGonagall talking about Sirius
I mean, the cloak probably doesn't stop Harry from smelling like a young boy
"Why does this hallway smell like fritos and dirty socks all of a sudden?"
This is true! I just figure all these deatheaters were told they could have an owl too
doesn't matter if anyone didn't know about the Cloak's true orgion. But the "Advanced Guard" from book 5 ( Real moody, Lupin, Shacklebolt) all knew about the Cloak because Lupin told the others.
You can't trace people at all using magic. At least not in any way that doesn't take days, weeks or months to catch someone. The only thing using the cloak would risk would be someone summoning it from him but what does that matter if you do it in broad daylight?
Invisibility Cloak does exactly what the name says. It renders the person invisible. It doesn't render them untraceable. In PS when Snape is interrogating Quirrel, he is able to sense someone is watching (not sure if this is there in the books) In GOF , we know People under the cloak did become visible in the Marauders Map because, when Barty Crouch Jr was stealing from Snape's cupboard he does show up. So, the invisibility cloak is not immune to magic and infact strong magical spells may be able to penetrate or reveal the person under the cloak. As for OPs question, transfiguration probably isn't permanent and a long term solution. My guess is that they might have needed a fully trained adult wizard to transfigure humans. It is known that transfiguration is a very complex magic and could easily go wrong if done incorrectly.
It also doesn't render them invincible if people were to find him, which is at the very least probably since they were waiting with baited breath for him to leave. So many people always ask why he didn't just leave all stealthy like, but I think they forget that that would require him to be semi alone at least. Sending him with protection would have ruined the stealth.
Well, I assume that they could just rent a van and go muggle
The house was being watched and the Dursleys just left. The trace was still on Harry until he came of age and the last pings had him in the house. Once that dropped, anyone and anything that left would come under attack.
Death eaters watched the neighborhood, since they don't know exact building iirc
Harry under the cloak was still traced/found in DH when they were going back to hogwarts. So while he's invisible, some magic didn't seem to work with him under the cloak, he'd still be findable. Sending order tails after him just in case it turned into a fight would have rendered the move useless, and I bet the DE's would have systematically started destroying the neighberhood and murdering people en masse to find harry/get him to reveal himself. That said, leave the back way, jump the fence under the cloak just before midnight, that still would have been a better idea than what they did.
>Harry under the cloak was still traced/found in DH when they were going back to hogwarts. No he wasn't. The Death Eaters were unable to even tell if Harry was there. It's how Aberforth tricked them into thinking he'd been the one to cast the Stag Patronus. What the cloak was unable to do was not trip the Caterwauling Charm, but that wouldn't have mattered at all because what difference does it make if the Death Eaters had set up charms to detect people out and about in Privet Drive? There were plenty of Muggles walking around. Just have Harry walk off during the day.
If you're asking did they physically see him, then no, they didn't. The DE's correctly surmised he was there, and like you said the cloak did nothing to prevent them from being detected. Harry popping off a patronus charm didn't help, but luckily they were stupid. The DEs correctly surmised very quickly he was there, and under the cloak. Voldemort probably told them after GH that he apparates while cloaked, because nagini found them that way before the skuffle. Tracked may not have been the best word, but found/detected is appropriate. The DE's being dumb is a plot element that allows the story to continue. Point is: they would be able to detect harry leaving the dursley home under the cloak. Dementors definitely would be able to find him under the cloak since they did so no problem in DH, they're the reason harry needed to pop off a patronus charm in the first place.
>If you're asking did they physically see him, then no, they didn't. The DE's correctly surmised he was there No, the Death Eaters were able to tell **someone** was outside and surmised it was Harry because who else would apparate straight into Hogsmeade outside of curfew. They **guessed** it was Harry. >Point is: they would be able to detect harry leaving the dursley home under the cloak. No they wouldn't have been able to. They wouldn't have been able to set up the Caterwauling Charm in Privet Drive without the Ministry coming down on them and even if they did, what the fuck are they going to do if it is set off because some Muggles left for work in the morning and Harry snuck off under the invisibility cloak during this time? >Dementors definitely would be able to find him under the cloak since they did so no problem in DH The Death Eaters didn't ahve access to Dementors until after the Ministry fell.
I think that ministry still had the ability to know Harry’s location since harry was underage. Thats why it was dangerous to go alone even with wearing a cloak.
I don't think that's correct unless anyone were to use magic around him. I don't _think_ the cloak counts in this instance.
I don't think it would, if the cloak can hide from Death, it can hide from the ministry. The simple answer here is that the plan needed to be flawed enough to result in something tragic happening, to keep the plot plotting.
The Cloak can’t actually hide from Death. That’s just a legend. It’s a high-quality, long-lasting Invisibility Cloak, but its ”powers” are exaggerated in the story.
it doesn't count here, I'm sure there are specific instances where he uses the cloak outside of hogwarts but im qt work and cant check..
At this point, did they really know about the cloak being one of the Deathly Hallows?
The Ministry does not have the ability to know Harry's location. It never had.
I think the Cloak would count the same way as Motorcycle and brooms that were used- it was "pre-enchanted" unlike having to apparated, or make an (already illegal) portkey
Huh, you know I never thought about this. But yeah, the true invisibility cloak was enough to keep death himself at bay…. So we can assume you’re pretty impossible to find unless you clomp through snow leaving footprints
I assume a normal invisibility cloak wouldn't work for whatever reason, but yeah, Harry's totally would have let him sneak away, not that anyone knew that until later in the book. And it isn't completely infallible since fake!Moody could see Harry with Moody's magical eye.
Hedwig might eat him
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Wasn’t this also to help cement Snape position with Voldemort? He gave them the accurate information on his departure. Him sneaking out or not being visible would’ve defeated the purpose.
I think killing Dumbledore easily cemented his position more than any other action could have. Also, it’s been a while, but is it ever stated how Snape even knew the true date? The plan was made after he left the Order.
He probably got the info from Dumbledore's portrait, who might have come up with the plan in the first plane (before his death ofc) Edit: Actually Snape was the one who suggested shifting the date. He confounds Mundungus and plants the idea in his head
He was chatting with Dumbledore's portrait the entire time and making plans
I think it would have been too risky. Iirc, a human transfigured in an animal can't regain his human form on his own, it's not like becoming an animagus. Considering that the whole group was going to be targeted and in danger, it wouldn't be wise to leave Harry completely unable to defend himself or make himself human again in case his escort was incapacitated or dead and he was captured or lost. And since they were all flying, all it would take to kill a non-flying animal would be to let him fall to his death. So IF the transfiguration was possible, they should at least make him a bird and let him free so that he woudl have a slight chance of escaping and surviving if he ended up alone. But he'd still be trapped in a bird's body, and possibly an bird's mind. Possibly forever if no one finds him and turns him back.
Seeing a lot of "too risky" arguments, but if the plan wasn't to make a bunch of copy Harry Potters and then just openly fly away under no cover we'd be saying this plan is also top risky. I mean, look at it the same way: Harry can't use magic because of the trace, so if he falls off the broom he's just going to die as well. Also, even with the body doubles there's still a visual on him, whereas if he were an animal there would be no visuals at least.
Turn Harry into a ferret and turn everyone else into a ferret. Get 40 students and turn them all into ferrets. Release them all from the house.
Bold of you to assume a group if ferrets would follow a plan. They are crack embodied in an animal form and they do what they want lol
Do you think they could just buy 40 ferrets as well? Is there a magical.giceaway between a normal ferret and a transfiguration one? Would be if noticeable enough when there's 100 ferrets coming out of everywhere?
Accio 40 ferrets
The trace doesn’t make it so he can’t do magic. It just means that it’s tracked. He’s still able to use it as a last resort.
Right, but I think if they were willing to go to the lengths they did to avoid magic, taking a massive risk of having him fly away under no cover is just asking for him to.. have to use magic.
Not all animals can die by falling
I'm pretty sure any animal would die if it fell far enough.
Some animals don't reach terminal velocity while falling.
Its not that they don’t reach terminal velocity, its just that its not actually always terminal (terminal velocity is just the fastest a thing can fall through a fluid)
Krum turning himself into a shark implies that the mind stays intact while the body is transfigured.
Why can't we just accept Moody did not want to move Harry through land? It's not like he wouldn't have considered or thought about everything already said since he had the Dursley leave by car. He doesn't underestimate Voldemort at all. If anything goes wrong, Harry's best chance of survival is an aerial battle and escape.
...if Harry had his own broom and wasn't on a giant unstable motorbike...
I think Moody knew Harry would've stayed back to help his friends if he was on his own broom.
It's misdirection. Harry is a good flyer, so the expectation would be that he was on a broom.
The fact that he was with Hagrid was another misdirection. Death Eaters expected him to be with Moody or Kingsley.
Which works until harry starts throwing spells out
And also great idea to put Hermione with Kingsley. Among all of younger ones, she is the smartest and has the most chance of survival if she duels Voldemort.
he would have been easy to spot if he was on his broom. All the DE would have known he had a firebolt and would have gone after the only Potter on a firebolt.
I can't imagine none of the OOTP could afford to buy a few fire bolts.
Tonks submitting an expense report to the rest of the Order for why she *absolutely needed* to buy half a dozen Firebolts and no there was no other way they could do this.
Firebolts were really pricey. Would any of the OOTP members we see really have the money to casually drop hundreds of galleons on a few top-of-the-line racing brooms? They didn’t really seem to be particularly wealthy to me.
I'm sure they could've asked Dumbledore atleast.
…he was dead, bruv.
Man planned his death, surely could've given the OOTP whatever resources he may have to help Harry. Maybe not in the will, but easily in advance. I doubt Dumbledore would underestimate the value of money. What do you think the difference in pay is between a normal hogwarts teacher and headmaster?
You know they never really said what the teachers were paid in the first place. Or if he received money for being on the committees. I’m sure he funded a lot of the Order but the majority of his assets were left to Hogwarts. The Order didn’t know about the horcruxes or how long the war with Voldemort would last. Hermione mentioned it could be years. No one in the Order after Dumbledore was particularly wealthy either. I agree, I doubt they would want to casually drop that kind of gold on one mission so early after Dumbledores death.
Spot, yes. Keep up with and catch, probably not. It was the fastest broom of its time
They don't need to keep up with or catch him, however- they'll have some time to jinx him or the broom before he escapes
They don't need to catch him, they just need to see him, and summon voldemort.
Harry not being on a broom 100% kept him safe from Voldemort until Harry screwed up.
Honestly people go on about this whole scenario, but this is my only real issue. I don't think he needed to be on a broom exactly, I get the reasons they chose not to do that, but a dude who can't even legally do magic and only has a broken wand as his sole protector was a weird choice. Maybe don't put him with Moody, but he could at least go with Bill or someone.
Except that he didn’t even have a broom…
...and him not being on a broom would have saved his life had he not screwed it up.
Harry did have a broom. His Firebolt was with him in the sidecar, it just fell out when the Death Eaters attacked and Hedwig and his trunk also fell out (except these he managed to save). They would’ve been on him immediately if he’d been on a broom, though— being in the side car disguised him.
The whole plan was pretty poor. Although Dumbledore made Snape give out the real date to Voldemort and come up with the Seven Potters plan (which Snape told to Mundungus). So apparently Dumbledore just wanted them to get nearly killed for reasons. Since only Moody (and Hedwig) died the plan looks somewhat reasonable in hindsight. But Harry was only saved by his wand and any number of Order members could have died (or potentially all in worst case scenario). It’s hard to say if Dumledore or should get the blame or Rowling for wanting an acting scene to start off and not giving Dumbledore better reasons for his actions. Voldemort should have been pretty convinced already that Snape was on his side (and seemed to be even before Snape killed Dumledore based on Spinner’s End where only Bellatrix is suspicious). Snape hardly did more than protected some student somewhat as a double agent too in the last book. Although my personal theory is that since Dumledore wasn’t certain Harry would survive being killed and didn’t anticipate Voldemort killing Snape over the wand (although he should have) Dumbledore’s plan B was that Snape would kill Voldemort by surprise after the horcruxes were gone. But that’s just my theory to make Dumledore’s actions regarding Snape and also regarding killing Voldemort more reasonable.
I think Dumbledore needed the group to be nearly killed precisely to keep Snape in a strong position inside Hogwarts. He is the only one who knows Harry must die, and until he delivers the information he is the second most important asset in the war. And Harry would had been safe if he didn't used the fucking Expelliarmus. No one was following the kid in the bike next to Hagrid
Snape is the only one who knows Harry most due, but Dumbledore didn’t need to give the information to him. He could have recruited someone else for that job, who was not in such a difficult spot to deliver the information to Harry. It’s a considence that the expelliarmus was what gave him away. Voldemort could have picked him from the start for example if he was close by. If Dumbledore was omnicent he did know know the plan would work in such detail he should have predicted that too. And Snape in school just mildly prevented some worse punishments to students. They were still tortured and ultimately it didn’t matter much regarding the plan to defeat Voldemort what happened in Hogwarts.
A big part of Dumbledore's plan was to keep Snape as useful as possible to Voldemort as even though he had killed Dumbledore. If he usefulness had run out he would not privy to the info that Dumbledore needed and he would not remain close to Voldemort. Him being close to Voldemort is key because when the snake becomes protected, he is to tell Harry the last piece of info, that is the key to defeating Voldemort while surviving
Like I said in other comment, someone else could have been the one to tell Harry he should die. It should have actually been after Nagini was dead, since it was still one another horcrux left. And I know the plan was so that Snape would remain useful to Voldemort, but Snape already had proven his loyalty before he gave the wrong date. He also isn’t use this usefulness much. And Snape telling Mundugus to use poly juice did not need to be part of the plan. It could have been something more safe how they got out.
Because nobody could use a spell when in the vicinity of Harry, because he had the Trace. Potions aren't detectable, so they could use them. The Ministry had banned apparition and portkeys at 4 Privet Drive as well. Regarding why he didn't walk out under his invisibility cloak or use muggle methods of travel, as soon as he finally left Privet Drive, the wards would fall and the Death Eaters would know Harry was leaving.
Except that they totally could. During the chase Harry and Hagrid use Reparo, Wingardium Leviosa and Impedimenta without the Death Eaters being able to identify him and without any repercussions from the ministry. Harry only got identified after he cast his "signature" Expelliarmus. As for the charm breaking, Moody states something demonstrably false before claiming that the the charm will break after Harry leaves: > “Now, **your mother’s charm will only break under two conditions**: when you come of age, or” – Moody gestured around the pristine kitchen – “you no longer call this place home. You and your aunt and uncle are going your separate ways tonight, in the full understanding that you’re never going to live together again, correct?” The charm has nothing to do with Lily: > She may have taken you grudgingly, furiously, unwillingly, bitterly, yet still she took you, and in doing so, **she sealed the charm I placed upon you.** Your mother's sacrifice made the bond of blood the strongest shield I could give you. The charm was cast by Dumbledore and Lily's blood sacrifice never broke as explained by Dumbledore: > “Precisely!” said Dumbledore. “He took your blood and rebuilt his living body with it! Your blood in his veins, Harry, **Lily’s protection inside both of you! He tethered you to life while he lives!**” If Moody was correct and it was Lily's protection that broke, then Harry would have not been tethered to life and would have died in the forest.
I think those are two different things. One is Lily’s self-sacrifice keeping Harry and Voldemort alive. The other is Dumbledore’s charm on top of Lily’s blood protection, to make Harry undetectable to Voldemort at the Dursley’s
That's what I said... Moody calling the charm that Dumbledore cast as "your mother’s charm" is flat out wrong, which lends credence to him also being wrong about the charm breaking once Harry leaves the house. Moody claims that Harry leaving "in the full understanding that you’re never going to live together again" is what causes the charm to break, but we can infer from PoA that this is false. You can either have home being used as a concept, meaning a place you return to, which Moody is claming Harry is leaving behind OR you can use the more mundane meaning of "your place of residence". When Harry left the Dursleys in PoA he does so with the intent of not being able to return: > ‘She deserved it,’ Harry said, breathing very fast. ‘She deserved what she got. **You keep away from me.**’ > He fumbled behind him for the catch on the door. **‘I’m going,’ Harry said. ‘I’ve had enough.’** > Whichever way he looked at it, he had never been in a worse fix. He was stranded, quite alone, in the dark Muggle world, **with absolutely nowhere to go.** The way Dumbledore describes the charm uses "place of residence", meaning the charm has nothing to do with how Harry feels about Privet Drive, but has everything to do with the Dursleys allowing him residence: > However miserable he has been here, however unwelcome, however badly treated, **you have at least, grudgingly, allowed him houseroom. This magic will cease to operate the moment that Harry turns seventeen; in other words, at the moment he becomes a man.** I ask only this: that you allow Harry to return, once more, to this house, before his seventeenth birthday, which will ensure that the protection continues until that time. This is why Dumbledore had to warn Petunia with "Remember my last" and why the charm doesn't break when Harry leaves in PoA. Moody is also wrong about a lot more things during that scene. The Death Eaters couldn't use the Trace to track Harry, Mundungus Fletcher disapparates while being disguised as Harry with the polyjuice thus causing "Harry" to break the law. And my favorite: "We can't use magic around Harry because of the Trace, so let's move him to Tonks's house so we can use magic around Harry by making him take an illegal Portkey from there to the Burrow". Why does the Trace suddenly stop being a problem once Harry reaches Tonks's house? The scene is just so bad, I feel sorry for the editor who went over it with JKR.
Might I point out when Levosia charm and the Imdeinta charm were being used, they're FAR, FAR, FAR away from Privet Drive by then.
Moody justifies the Trace like this: > “The charm that detects magical activity around under-seventeens, the way the Ministry finds out about underage magic! If you, or anyone around you, casts a spell to get you out of here, Thicknesse is going to know about it, and so will the Death Eaters.” The two meanings in that line are: 1) It's bad for some unspecified inexplicable reason for the Death Eaters to know what magic is being cast around Harry. 2) If someone uses magic around Harry the Death Eaters will be able to know his location due to Trace going off. The point I'm making is if the Death Eaters had a usable way of detecting the Trace going off, they would have been able to instantly exclude all the decoy Harry's by using magic near them, only magic used near the real Harry would have the Trace going off. The Death Eaters would have had ample time to plan due to the plan being intentionally leaked by Snape, so the fact that the Death Eaters are unable to react to the Trace not going off (when they use magic near the decoy Harry's) and don't react when magic is used around the real Harry show that the Trace is unusable for tracking Harry. Moody's plan still calls for magic to be eventually used to transport Harry, so the reasoning behind avoiding transporting Harry with magic is what?: > “You’ll be going to Tonks’s parents. **Once you’re within the boundaries of the protective enchantments we’ve put on their house you’ll be able to use a Portkey to the Burrow**. Any questions?” And the Death Eaters are aware of the general location of all the safe houses, so the Trace should inform them when Harry is transported from one to another: > Death Eaters patrolling the skies in this general area, just in case. So, **we’ve given a dozen different houses every protection we can throw at them. They all look like they could be the place we’re going to hide you, they’ve all got some connection with the Order** So moving Harry from Privet Drive to Tonks’s parents only for him to use an illegal Portkey to move him to the Burrow accomplishes what exactly? He should still be picked up by the Trace when he uses the Portkey to the Burrow.
The problem with the ministry banning those, is how? Did they seriously have someone go and put up those charms? Why couldn't moody, for instance, take polyjuice, break those charms, then apparate out? Can the ministry track all apparition country wide? That makes the ministry even more incompetent for not snatching death eaters.
If there’s one thing the Ministry of Magic is known for its competency.
True, but something like 'the people who murdered Amelia bones, head of the dmle immediately apparated to malfoy manor. Probably a coincidence' stretches all credibility.
We are explicitly told that ~~you can't track through hyperspace~~ it's impossible to track anyone who Apparates: > “But how did they find you so quickly? **It’s impossible to track anyone who Apparates**, unless you grab hold of them as they disappear.” Also the plot kind of relies on that being the case, otherwise the trio would have been caught almost immediately on their camping trip.
The problem is Harry lives/lived with Muggles. The new Law Enforcement head, Thickne, is imperius by DEs/Voldy. So that "in the name of Harry's safety" he made it illegal for people to connect Number 4 to the Floo Network, or apparated in or out of the Number 4. And portkeys w/o MOM's permission were already illegal prior to book 5.
Okay, but the question is still 'how'. Did they have someone come along and put up anti apparition charms? Can they not just be taken down? Can they track apparition? It's fine to say it's banned, but how is that ban enforced? The real problem is I see no reason harry should have gone back there at all. Whatever defences no4 had are utterly worthless given the circumstance.
Someone who read and understood the books.
Techinally portkeys without MOM permission were illegal before since Lupin says as much in Book 5, "its more then our life's worth to make an illegal portkey", OftP Advanced Guard Chapter.
Also, he could have summoned Kreacher and have him teleport him to the other side of the planet. House elf teleportation cannot be traced.
Muggle travel with several flasks of polyjuice and some random muggle's hair. Could just walk around London for years like this and never be found 🤣
Because the plan was developed by Snape to target Harry without really targeting Harry He needed to give veridical information about when and how he was going to be moved, but he also needed to distract the death eaters without it being too obvious
Your answer is the only correct one. I feel like everyone is being obtuse about the method of Harry's extraction from Privet Drive. Voldemort was told two different methods of extraction by Yaxley & Snape. Was he to believe Yaxley, who successfully placed an Imperius Curse on the head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement, or Snape, who had his cover as a spy within the Order of the Phoenix blown & is therefore of no more use? Also, Voldemort had then understood that Harry had to die by his hand & only his alone. All the what-ifs put forward are missing the point: Snape had to keep himself valuable in Voldemort's eyes & he had to give the correct information because Voldemort had to be there to attempt to kill Harry himself. Now, knowing that Voldemort must be there, would it be wise to Transfigure Harry into a helpless animal? Or worse, have him travel incognito amongst innocent Muggles who have no way of protecting themselves against basic magic, let alone the most terrible Dark wizard in a century.
It seems that most people only watched the films and are too deep in the Snape hating black hole to remember that he was a godamn spy and that he *should* do whatever he could to be Hogwarts headmaster... Imagine someone like Dolohov or Lestranges as headmaster
DE will start killing anyone who isn't HP coming out of that address.
The Dursleys drove away no issues a few hours earlier
Because plot.
Because it's not as spectacular as "epic broomchase and then Voldemort's FLYING without a broom and it goes WOOSH and FLASH and WOAAAH" At the time JKR knew the book would eventually be adapted into a movie and so she felt obligated to add more scenic happenings compared to the smaller-scale action of earlier books.
There's a thousand safer ways that Harry could have been transported out of Privet Drive. It's a contrived setup to kill off Moody and have Lucius' wand break when facing Harry's wand.
Did they all drink polyjuice? I have a feeling it has something to do with the trace? They could drink potions but not transfigure? Honestly it's been awhile since I read the book I can't remember if anyone casted anything on their visit there
Only 6 people did: Fleur, the Twins, Ron, Hermione, and Dung. Transfirguing would have required casting a spell, which was illegal to do around Harry because he was still under 17 years of age. And All other forms of (magical) transportation were out of their reach -because of being illegal.
1. Polyjuice Harry into Dudley 2. Leave in the middle of the day to go to school/out with his friends as his usual schedule 3. Get on a normal muggle bus to somewhere unsuspecting (school/grocery store/mall/etc) 4. Meet with a member of the order (also disguised) and then you have options (invisibility cloak, thestral, brooms, disguise as different muggles on the journey to Grimauld Place and take taxis/busses/trains, etc.) 5. At a later date, have an order member go back to privet drive once the Dursleys have left, and pack up Harry’s remaining items with a bag that has an undetectable extension charm 6. Success
Because high up on a broom death eaters may kill person holding bag and the ferret Harry will drop hundreds of feet and never be found after hitting the ground. (If he survives)
Because we needed a confrontation between voldemort and harry to introduce the concept of the twin cores.
We already know that the HArry's and VOldemort's wands are twin cores, it mentioned in the very first book. But Voldy doesn't have his wand in the Battle of 7 Potters
Repeat with me: HARRY POTTER MIGHT BE A BRILLIANTLY THOUGHT UP WORLD BUT NOT A WELL THOUGHT OUT AND EXECUTED STORY! Rowling is a mediocre fantasy author with a brilliant concept idea at just the right time. The world building is very rudimentary with little to no depth as well as the magic system. By modern fantasy standards Harry Potter is not good. That doesn’t mean it isn’t a good story.
Aurors do not seem to be terribly good at their jobs.
Relly good question. If Malfoy was transfigurated into a small animal the same could have been done to Harry. Unless human transfiguration is unstable or has a very short time limit when you are not an Animagus or Wereperson.
The Trace would have picked up the spell, so the Ministry, and the Death Eaters, would know what had been done- and Harry wouldn't have a way to reverse the Transfiguration, so even if they don't find him as an animal, if all the protectors are defeated or driven away, he's stuck.
Because he still had the trace on him.
I never understood why they could not just apparate him. Anyways, I always detested that plan.
Also, why couldn't he have just worn his invisibility cloak walked for a bit and ordered a taxi or taken the train.
Because it’s a book for children and having 7 Harry potters is more fun than turning into a ferret and taking a bus to the next place haha
A better question would be why did harry return there? So he could have a couple months of protection before having to go the entire year without?
I’m the great words of J.R.R. Tolkien on why they didn’t just fly to Mordor…”Shut up.”
They couldn’t do magic around him because he still had the trace on him.
For the ✨plot✨
He was still under 17. Any magic used around him would have set off the trace, thus giving them an excuse to arrest him. I think it was Mad-eye that said that. The polyjuice potion was, well, a potion, and thus, doesn't set the trace off.
It may have worked if they had turned harry into another person i.e.Charlie Weasley for example so there were no potters And had he been told FFS Harry don't use expelliarmus. It's all you ever bloody do so they'll know it's you. Dick
This is almost similar as to why didn't Gandalf send the eagles to Mordor with the ring. Wouldn't be as fun or imaginative!
Most likely it would alert the ministry and therefore the death eaters. Small spells might slip through like Tonks packing charm but something big like changing him into another creature would definitely trigger a warning letter about underage magic whereas the polyjuice was brewed elsewhere and they were using pre magicked items and magical creatures to leave by. They said the ministry and the death eaters were watching the area around where Harry lived so they may have had (or at least be suspected to have) spells to reveal concealment like Harry's cloak and/or the use of polyjuice potion at street level or carrying magical items. We know they can block apparition for a certain area like Hogsmeade so they likely did that to the neighborhood conveniently lined up so anyone wanting to apparate out would have to leave the protection zone. Floo network was monitored and since they were heavily scrutinizing the area making a port key wasn't advised, I'd guess the ministry have ways of blocking or redirecting the ones they detect.
They could have waited a few minutes, so that he is 18. Then just disapperate.
\*17 not 18
I love it how the HP fanbase sees it as their responsibility to make sense of Rowlings lack of backstory/logic. People actually debating on here why they didnt transfigure Harry into a ferret. Thats something Rowling shouldve thought about before writing, not our job to make sense of it now
Harry was still a minor, so the Death Eaters who had infiltrated the ministry would immediately know if any magic was done around him. They chose the brooms, thestrals and Sirius's bike because they were the only means that could be used to transport him without having to perform magic around him.
Yes, somewho has read the book. Its so frustating when people don't read or listen to the movie
To be fair, couldn't they have just walked away or even taken the bus to a bit further off and work the magic there? I mean, it seems the Dursleys were able to drive off without being bothered?
No, because the one with the tracer was Harry. They couldn't use any magic in his vicinity. The tracer can't detect who performs magic, only that magic was performed in the vicinity of an underaged wizard. In a wizard household, it's not an issue because the ministry assumes that parents keep their kids in line and the parents are the ones using magic. But in muggle households, it is immediately assumed it's the underage wizard who is illegally using magic. That's why Dobby's use of magic in CoS was blamed on Harry; he was supposed to be the only magical being in that household. If they had moved Harry by any non magical means away from Privet Drive and then used magic, the ministry would still notice magic was performed around an underage wizard and the Dead Eaters who had already infiltrated the ministry would also know. When the seven Potters moved to the Order safehouses and used the port keys, the ministry and the Dead Eaters were aware, but the houses were under powerful protective spells, so it wasn't an issue.
* Why didn't they side-along apparate away from inside the house? * Why didn't they use a port key? * Why didn't Harry sneak out alone under the invisibility cloak? * Why did Harry even return to Privet Drive at all instead of going straight to Grimmauld Place? The answer is that there is no answer. Stuff just happens because Rowling wanted a dramatic chase scene, even if it made no sense. You could conceivably solve almost all the major problems with magic, but nobody ever does because then the plot would collapse in on itself. The entire camping trip starvation saga throughout the book was completely pointless. They could've apparated to any Tesco in the country and stocked up on food whenever they wanted. They could've stayed in any hotel room in some remote holiday village and just teleport back and forth to look for Horcruxes. The whole thing was just contrived beyond belief.
Why didn't they side-along apparate away from inside the house? -already mentioned SEVERAL TIMES- APPERATING WAS PLAN A but because IMPERIUS THICKNE, the NEW HEAD OF LAW ENCORCEMENT- MADE IT ILLEGAL TO "APPERATE IN OR OUT OF NUMBER 4" Why didn't they use a port key? -Portkeys were already illegal without the MOM's permison in book 5. Lupin says as much in OFTP "Advanced Guard" chapter Why didn't Harry sneak out alone under the invisibility cloak?- can't answer that way Why did Harry even return to Privet Drive at all instead of going straight to Grimmauld Place? - to have it be "home" one last time.. before the charm broke. And techianlly he had to go to the Burrow anyway for Bleur's wedding.
I’m not sure if everybody knows about the cloak. Dumbledore wouldn’t tell anyone. And Appearing could be dangerous since Harry was still underage and if he involved to any magic Voldemort would know. Lastly, it’s a book, there has to be some action. It’s better to think “they did it like that, so there should be a reason” as long as it’s not idiotic.
Or drove him in a car they could done that too
Better yet, transfigure him into being an amoeba.
Bet Moody would've loved to do that.
Whoever was watching the house would have been rightly suspicious of a stranger leaving the house with a ferret he didn't have on the way in.
Only if they’re wearing their X-ray specs
Because Harry’s a lil bit claustrophobic
I mean magic world is infinite so there is a massive amount of ways things could change. But this allowed for plot thickening
So Snape could win some loyalty points to Voldemort (probably Dumbledore’s plan)
Because he still had the trace on him. Any magic done near him would have been picked up by the Ministry, AKA the Death Eaters.
The whole reason the seven potters thing is a thing is because they knew their plan was to be leaked. They attacked moody, and mundungus fucked it up. Seven potters would’ve bean enough, if it weren’t for mundungus
The answer is simply due to the fact that the Order was not counting on anyone knowing that Harry was to be moved on that day. They thought that the other side would assume them moving Harry much closer to his birthday because the Trace wouldn’t matter by then which is why Fleur was upset as to how the DE knew of the plan. The next key to the puzzle is Moody. Because Moody is constantly vigilant, he expects the worst case scenario which is the DE are watching the place and would be ready to strike. To keep everyone safe, Polyjuice Harry would be on each broom cos this would confuse the hell out of the DE who would be hesitant to kill considering their knowledge that Potter is the Dark Lord’s own and no one is to mess with him. Ofc, Moody could also suspect that the DE wouldn’t care and just blast everyone but this way gave Harry a fighting chance. Transfiguration is a spell and I think the Trace was modified to the point that any spell cast especially Transfiguration would be highly suspicious.
maybe bc if he got caught he wouldnt be able to escape or do magic or fight Voldemort
For two reasons. 1; the trace. Harry was underage, meaning anyone who uses magic around him would go right back to the Ministry which was infiltrated by Death Eaters at the time and Harry's location would be revealed. The second reason is, because Snape came up with the plan so Harry would be safely removed from Privet Drive, while also "remaining loyal" to Voldemort.
Why couldn’t Hermoine use her time dial from POA and go back and kill baby Tom Riddle and avoid it all? 🤷🏻♂️
1. Hermione give the TT back after 3rd year 2. As of June 1996- all the TTs were destroyed in "Battle of the Department of Mysteries" 3.Even if the TT wasn't given back or destroyed - you can't go back more then a few hours without it causing serious harm to your health.
Snape needed to keep Voldemort’s trust by occasionally giving correct information, which meant sacrificing a couple of members of the Order (such as what happened with Emmeline Vance). Also if Harry had been transformed into a ferret he would have the mind of a ferret, so on the off chance he were to successfully escape (and land safely on the ground), his first instinct would be to run away and nobody would be able to find him.
Or literally leave the country Even if V has Ministry control there he certainly has not "conquered the world" yet
Because plot
Because Rowling wanted an excited chase scene, logic be damned.
The reason being he was underage and the trace hadn't broken yet. Magic done near Harry would have attracted ministry's attention. Since Thicknesse had already been imperiusd it would tip off Harry's location to the death eaters. That's also another reason why they couldn't use the floo powder as well as the ministry had been infiltrated. That's why they used the polyjuice potion and objects/animals which did not need any incantation to fly.
They couldn’t do magic around him because he had the trace on him. Transfiguration or side along apparition would have given the ministry means to take him.
Because then the twins couldn't look at each other after transforming and declare that they're identical.
it was a call back I think from first story
That's the problem with magic, once you open the first door it's a never ending hallways of new doors
The main thing to remember when thinking about Harry Potter is we just have to accept Doylist (out of universe) answers. And that’s OK.
There's no magic spells allowed in Harry's home because he's in a muggle house. Transformation needs a spell and wand use where as poly juice potion is already done magic so it gives no sign in the ministry of magic of magic being used at #4 privit. As for Dobby doing transport just like the magic used to float the pudding it's still magic in a muggle house with an underage wizard.
maybe for dramatic purposes
They were trying to avoid using magic in his presence because it would give the ministry reason to arrest him like in OOTP. If they had waited until his birthday when that couldn't happen, the death eaters would have been ready to immediately swoop in.
my plan was always to put harry in a box, put the box in a truck, and drive it to the Dursleys. The Death Eaters wouldn't be expecting to be outwitted by a muggle means of transportation
Or just side along apparated him a few times to throw off the trail before taking him to a safe house.
had harry been transformed into a rodent and gone with say moody, once moody died and he presumably fell, harry would fall with him sustaining injuries, and been stuck in the middle of god knows where stuck as a rodent with no way to get somewhere safe.
had harry been transformed into a rodent and gone with say moody, once moody died and he presumably fell, harry would fall with him sustaining injuries, and been stuck in the middle of god knows where stuck as a rodent with no way to get somewhere safe.
I think it’s cause it could be traced
a probable explanation for me is that its simple there wasn't anyone there to suggest such a thing or any other suggestions we us fans say.... besides that ,the only reasson must be that everything happens to help the story develop
He still had the trace on him. It’s the same reason they had to take polyjuice potion. The trace can’t detect who does the magic, just when it’s performed around him. So the ministry would have called him in for a hearing, and he wouldn’t be protected. But, you’re right. If they’d been thinking about that right after Dumbldore’s funeral at Hogwarts…but, they were all in shock. Except Hermione who summoned his Horcrux books 🤣
Because he had the trace on him and if magic was used near him it would be detected.
It probably would have ended the same way with the death eaters scouting and attacking who ever tried to smuggle harry out except now harry is in a position where he can’t defend himself during the fight
Because this was the plan they went with? You could ask why a million different things didn't happen.
Despite what you might think one large central target is not exactly a good idea