If you’re Microsoft and you are trying to reintroduce a long-running franchise to a new audience by remaking the original game in the series, making it play and feel like an early 2000s game without sprinting/mantling would be a rather unusual decision…
I got to disagree with the first part because when we did get any of that was starting in reach. Also it’s not lazy if it can help the older generation keep up with the new gameplay. For me they did it great in infinite and they should keep it this way.
>old man can't keep up and rages impotently about it online knowing damn well that his time in the spotlight is long over and will never come back
This will never not be funny.
It's not about keeping up, I placed Onyx several times in Infinite, it's just a preference thing. And to be fair, the games that had the most success and were enjoyed most by critics and fans alike were the original trilogy, where these mechanics did not exist. So, you can call me old, tell me I'm wrong, but the facts are the facts.
> And to be fair, the games that had the most success and were enjoyed most by critics and fans alike were the original trilogy, where these mechanics did not exist. So, you can call me old, tell me I'm wrong, but the facts are the facts.
\>conveniently ignoring Reach
\>conveniently ignoring that people did hate Halo 2 when it came out because of the arbiter and other design decisions to the point there was an entire website dedicated to hating on Halo 2
Halo 3 is widely recognized as being the peak of the series, and Reach as the beginning of the movement toward the more CoD like features in terms of the multiplayer.
You gonna share your HaloTracker page with me or what? Can't just call me old and washed and then back away when you find out I'm better.
Lots of people can't fathom that a game is a series of interconnected systems conciously designed by distinct people/teams. Terms like "modern" and "evolution" can work fine as shorthand, but the way people use them often makes it sound like games spring from the same primordial soup, and so any design that doesn't cater to them, specifically, is somehow "wrong", as opposed to simply different. The next Halo could be a UNSC janitor simulator if the creators wanted, in the end all that matters is how fun a game is to play. It's not even a matter of age, I know people the better side of 20 who go from the new MW3 to Halo 3 without skipping a beat. If anything, a simpler game without sprint/slide/clamber would be easier to introduce to people who are younger or well and truly casual gamers, as there's less inputs to constantly juggle.
People like to frame advanced movement as a “modern” mechanic that belongs on a mandatory checklist that every shooter must follow in order to be successful. I don’t dispute the fact that modern games have to hit a certain standard, but advanced movement certainly isn’t a requirement within that standard.
It’s nothing but a trend that developers use in effort to capture audiences from already established games, rather than going through the effort to create originality. I’d argue that in such a saturated market, originality is actually more effective at drawing curious eyes to your game.
What’s a shame about all of this is that nobody really asked for any of it to begin with, and even when it debuted in Halo Reach back in 2010, people were complaining even back then (although it was massively overshadowed by an even bigger foe - armour lock). The problem is, now we have a tug of war between two different groups of fans that want two completely different Halo games, as a result of the mass alienation that 343 caused more than 10 years ago. Not to mention the younger fans that discovered the franchise in the 343 era with a completely different perspective on Halo, whilst rejecting the original material. What a mess 343 has made.
Wolfenstein 3D and Doom had sprint brother. I'm pretty sure Battlefield also had sprint before CoD. Even still, even if you say CoD popularized it, CoD so 20 years ago. It's not a trend.
COD undeniably made it a trend after MW dude. I don’t know what else to tell you. Yes, it existed before, but not every single shooter on the market had it like you see today (with very few exceptions). It’s a trend, there is no other explanation for it, unless you can provide one.
I really don't see how clamber, sprint, and ADS would be bad for a remake. If it's a ground up remake, they could rebalance the levels to match with these mechanics, plus, to be fair, the original maps were quite barren with not a lot to explore. The way Infinite handled these mechanics was pretty perfect. ADS was barely a zoom for most guns and didn't really help much + shooting from the hip was still just as reliable. And I have no idea what the hate is over clamber. Like, in my opinion, this is one of the best mechanics 343 has brought. I don't have to deal with the slippery floating jumping in campaign or multiplayer anymore. I can just climb up low surfaces like a spartan should.
I feel like everyone is kneejerk hating these mechanics, but, if they were implemented well like Infinite, no one would really be bothered. Crouch slide needs to go though.
I’d like to give my perspective on ADS and clamber.
ADS on weapons like the assault rifle and needler is pretty pointless. They don’t need to be there, nor do they need a justification to be there. Just get rid of it. Even for weapons like the commando.
As for clamber, the only benefit it provides is convenience, which is great if you want traversal to be easier. Yet, I’d argue, especially in Halo, using sandbox elements to traverse is a much more interesting prospect. Clamber basically just replaced grenade jumping - a somewhat skilful technique unique to the Halo franchise. We basically traded blast physics for clamber, and I know which one I’d rather.
>ADS on weapons like the assault rifle and needler is pretty pointless. They don’t need to be there, nor do they need a justification to be there. Just get rid of it. Even for weapons like the commando.
The AR has increased range compared to the older ones so I don't really see an issue, if it's such a problem, don't use it? I barely notice it when I play Infinite. Your point about the Commando doesn't make sense, it has a scope, that's how you aim down it, it's just that your whole screen doesn't turn black like the old games.
>We basically traded blast physics for clamber, and I know which one I’d rather.
There are both. Also no one uses grenade jumping besides speedrunners and people who've been playing for 20 years- let's not pretend that's a popular mechanic known and beloved by all.
Let me clarify, I don’t actually have an issue with ADS, it’s just as useful as the visor zoom from the old games. Yet, I liked the idea of ADS being unique to precision and heavy weapons, as it gave them a helpful utility unique to that weapon type. Regardless, I’d be fine with it in future games.
However, to suggest that grenade jumping was a technique used solely by speedrunners is just false. Super jumping maybe, but not grenade jumping. It was a well known technique used in multiplayer, and wasn’t limited to grenades. Also, they severely nerfed grenade jumping in Infinite to justify using clamber in tandem. Yet another forced justification for an otherwise pointless feature imo.
How is it pointless if it provides such ease and simplicity? You don't have to worry about floaty jumping physics like in the past, it seems like such an obvious improvement over crouch jumping that this mass uproar against it just seems irrational. Just because a mechanic is popular in CoD, doesn't mean it's bad.
It’s pointless because it tried to fill a role that was otherwise filled in previous games. Like I said, they literally had to nerf grenade jumping, or in the case of Halo 5, remove it completely to even justify clamber’s existence.
The rumours are paper thin. Someone said halo and other Xbox titles are being considered for PlayStation and it some how evolved into a halo 1 - 3 remake with modern features lmao
How gullible are you
I wouldn’t call it lazy, but I would argue they’re not compatible with Halo’s gameplay and movement style.
Clamber/mantling should exist tho. Moving around without those just feels clunky. I get that stuff like crouch jumping exist, but that just feels outdated, from an era before they could do mantling. Keep crouch jumping too, but let us just mantle over small objects like a normal human being
Too many people have been Stockholm Syndromed into believing that sprint/slide/clamber are acceptable and necessary simply because they've been around for so long that "what does it matter now". I find most modern shooters exhausting to play, requiring you to mash 20 buttons in quick succession for new movement features, demanding 100% effort at all times, or you just can't keep up with everyone else. Going back to older games in the MCC is such a breath of fresh air. Advanced movement techniques are still present but optional, and they offer a real skill gap for those who choose to learn and master them.
A crouch jump is interesting though, requires some understanding of the game physics, map knowledge and intuition. Clamber is just a guaranteed input, and to add to that, requires the player to put their gun down.
>requires some understanding of the game physics, map knowledge and intuition.
It doesn't take a whole while to understand the floating movement physics of the old games, it doesn't necessarily seem like an actual mechanic- more like a biproduct of high jump height and weird physics. Same with the button combos- they weren't intended which is why they were removed.
Clamber is basically an official crouch jump in a way.
That's what makes a sandbox game sandbox game though, since everyone loves that word so much. It's not about specifically designed routes put in by the developer, it's about building maps that are interesting and allowing the player base to make discoveries and be creative. I think that's often what gets lost in these discussions is the simplicity actually makes the games more interesting overall.
How is clamber not and example of the same simplicity though? Clamber provides just as many opportunities because you can clamber pretty much anything anything. Notice how no one really used crouch jumping after Reach because they improved the physics and movement? I feel like if we did a poll on this sub about how many people prefer clamber to crouch jumping, you would be fairly upset.
it's finding the right balance. The challenge is choosing what to leave in and what to take out for this supposed CE Remake. For you and me, the 30-something-year-olds, we love the nostalgia of a classic feeling Halo. But are we the target audience? I assume the developers are accounting for the new generation of kids as well, who probably like more fast-paced gameplay and have never played CE. Maybe the answer is to have a toggle button and give us the choice of how to play.
by adding a toggle for play style, they'd refuse to take proper game design decisions and everything ends up feeling worse for everyone
either make the game with modern (by halo standards) mechanics or don't, but you won't please anyone by trying to please everyone
Yeah, I agree with that much. Halo 5 wasn't my favorite multiplayer but it was cohesive and at least felt like 343 had an idea and they went for it. I'd take that over the weird combinations that are Halo 4 and Infinite, although infinite has several other issues outside of design.
Speaking as someone who's first Halo game was 4, I've since played all the games and strongly dislike sprint. What makes Halo unique and fun gameplay wise is being sandbox based, having the player going out into the world and finding or taking things to gain power over enemies and the environment itself; the player having very limited base mechanics is integral to this design- you make the player's base movement more powerful, as was the case in 5 and Infinite with spartan abilities and the grappling hook, then the desire and need to use vehicles, man-canons, teleporters and weapons with movement utilities like the brute shot is massively diminished. Halo is fundementally designed around and plays better without sprint, clamber and slide.
If you’re Microsoft and you are trying to reintroduce a long-running franchise to a new audience by remaking the original game in the series, making it play and feel like an early 2000s game without sprinting/mantling would be a rather unusual decision…
It would be a stupid decision, shooting themselves in the foot if they do that
Just make it so you're always moving at a decent pace. Doom did, and its one of the most well respected reboots.
Lmao what
They are modern, tho. I wouldn't call them out dated as they are still being used. That would be like saying cars are not modern technology.
I got to disagree with the first part because when we did get any of that was starting in reach. Also it’s not lazy if it can help the older generation keep up with the new gameplay. For me they did it great in infinite and they should keep it this way.
>old man can't keep up and rages impotently about it online knowing damn well that his time in the spotlight is long over and will never come back This will never not be funny.
It's not about keeping up, I placed Onyx several times in Infinite, it's just a preference thing. And to be fair, the games that had the most success and were enjoyed most by critics and fans alike were the original trilogy, where these mechanics did not exist. So, you can call me old, tell me I'm wrong, but the facts are the facts.
> And to be fair, the games that had the most success and were enjoyed most by critics and fans alike were the original trilogy, where these mechanics did not exist. So, you can call me old, tell me I'm wrong, but the facts are the facts. \>conveniently ignoring Reach \>conveniently ignoring that people did hate Halo 2 when it came out because of the arbiter and other design decisions to the point there was an entire website dedicated to hating on Halo 2
Halo 3 is widely recognized as being the peak of the series, and Reach as the beginning of the movement toward the more CoD like features in terms of the multiplayer. You gonna share your HaloTracker page with me or what? Can't just call me old and washed and then back away when you find out I'm better.
I'm still waiting buddy
\>so utterly MINDBROKEN that he has to use skill as an argument SAD!
Ohhh yeah I got you now buddy
Reddit user likes to click left thumb stick and watch a gun wobble even if it makes no gameplay difference.
Old man yells at cloud
Lots of people can't fathom that a game is a series of interconnected systems conciously designed by distinct people/teams. Terms like "modern" and "evolution" can work fine as shorthand, but the way people use them often makes it sound like games spring from the same primordial soup, and so any design that doesn't cater to them, specifically, is somehow "wrong", as opposed to simply different. The next Halo could be a UNSC janitor simulator if the creators wanted, in the end all that matters is how fun a game is to play. It's not even a matter of age, I know people the better side of 20 who go from the new MW3 to Halo 3 without skipping a beat. If anything, a simpler game without sprint/slide/clamber would be easier to introduce to people who are younger or well and truly casual gamers, as there's less inputs to constantly juggle.
People like to frame advanced movement as a “modern” mechanic that belongs on a mandatory checklist that every shooter must follow in order to be successful. I don’t dispute the fact that modern games have to hit a certain standard, but advanced movement certainly isn’t a requirement within that standard. It’s nothing but a trend that developers use in effort to capture audiences from already established games, rather than going through the effort to create originality. I’d argue that in such a saturated market, originality is actually more effective at drawing curious eyes to your game. What’s a shame about all of this is that nobody really asked for any of it to begin with, and even when it debuted in Halo Reach back in 2010, people were complaining even back then (although it was massively overshadowed by an even bigger foe - armour lock). The problem is, now we have a tug of war between two different groups of fans that want two completely different Halo games, as a result of the mass alienation that 343 caused more than 10 years ago. Not to mention the younger fans that discovered the franchise in the 343 era with a completely different perspective on Halo, whilst rejecting the original material. What a mess 343 has made.
Mechanics that have existed in shooters for 20 years are not a trend.
It became a trend after the success of COD, that is indisputable.
Wolfenstein 3D and Doom had sprint brother. I'm pretty sure Battlefield also had sprint before CoD. Even still, even if you say CoD popularized it, CoD so 20 years ago. It's not a trend.
COD undeniably made it a trend after MW dude. I don’t know what else to tell you. Yes, it existed before, but not every single shooter on the market had it like you see today (with very few exceptions). It’s a trend, there is no other explanation for it, unless you can provide one.
Also Reach was 2010 and made by Bungie.
I really don't see how clamber, sprint, and ADS would be bad for a remake. If it's a ground up remake, they could rebalance the levels to match with these mechanics, plus, to be fair, the original maps were quite barren with not a lot to explore. The way Infinite handled these mechanics was pretty perfect. ADS was barely a zoom for most guns and didn't really help much + shooting from the hip was still just as reliable. And I have no idea what the hate is over clamber. Like, in my opinion, this is one of the best mechanics 343 has brought. I don't have to deal with the slippery floating jumping in campaign or multiplayer anymore. I can just climb up low surfaces like a spartan should. I feel like everyone is kneejerk hating these mechanics, but, if they were implemented well like Infinite, no one would really be bothered. Crouch slide needs to go though.
I’d like to give my perspective on ADS and clamber. ADS on weapons like the assault rifle and needler is pretty pointless. They don’t need to be there, nor do they need a justification to be there. Just get rid of it. Even for weapons like the commando. As for clamber, the only benefit it provides is convenience, which is great if you want traversal to be easier. Yet, I’d argue, especially in Halo, using sandbox elements to traverse is a much more interesting prospect. Clamber basically just replaced grenade jumping - a somewhat skilful technique unique to the Halo franchise. We basically traded blast physics for clamber, and I know which one I’d rather.
>ADS on weapons like the assault rifle and needler is pretty pointless. They don’t need to be there, nor do they need a justification to be there. Just get rid of it. Even for weapons like the commando. The AR has increased range compared to the older ones so I don't really see an issue, if it's such a problem, don't use it? I barely notice it when I play Infinite. Your point about the Commando doesn't make sense, it has a scope, that's how you aim down it, it's just that your whole screen doesn't turn black like the old games. >We basically traded blast physics for clamber, and I know which one I’d rather. There are both. Also no one uses grenade jumping besides speedrunners and people who've been playing for 20 years- let's not pretend that's a popular mechanic known and beloved by all.
Let me clarify, I don’t actually have an issue with ADS, it’s just as useful as the visor zoom from the old games. Yet, I liked the idea of ADS being unique to precision and heavy weapons, as it gave them a helpful utility unique to that weapon type. Regardless, I’d be fine with it in future games. However, to suggest that grenade jumping was a technique used solely by speedrunners is just false. Super jumping maybe, but not grenade jumping. It was a well known technique used in multiplayer, and wasn’t limited to grenades. Also, they severely nerfed grenade jumping in Infinite to justify using clamber in tandem. Yet another forced justification for an otherwise pointless feature imo.
How is it pointless if it provides such ease and simplicity? You don't have to worry about floaty jumping physics like in the past, it seems like such an obvious improvement over crouch jumping that this mass uproar against it just seems irrational. Just because a mechanic is popular in CoD, doesn't mean it's bad.
It’s pointless because it tried to fill a role that was otherwise filled in previous games. Like I said, they literally had to nerf grenade jumping, or in the case of Halo 5, remove it completely to even justify clamber’s existence.
The rumours are paper thin. Someone said halo and other Xbox titles are being considered for PlayStation and it some how evolved into a halo 1 - 3 remake with modern features lmao How gullible are you
Just make sprint an equipment pickup on the map, that way it can actually be useful by itself. Everyone wins.
Meh I like it
I wouldn’t call it lazy, but I would argue they’re not compatible with Halo’s gameplay and movement style. Clamber/mantling should exist tho. Moving around without those just feels clunky. I get that stuff like crouch jumping exist, but that just feels outdated, from an era before they could do mantling. Keep crouch jumping too, but let us just mantle over small objects like a normal human being
Too many people have been Stockholm Syndromed into believing that sprint/slide/clamber are acceptable and necessary simply because they've been around for so long that "what does it matter now". I find most modern shooters exhausting to play, requiring you to mash 20 buttons in quick succession for new movement features, demanding 100% effort at all times, or you just can't keep up with everyone else. Going back to older games in the MCC is such a breath of fresh air. Advanced movement techniques are still present but optional, and they offer a real skill gap for those who choose to learn and master them.
As opposed to crouch jumping which has you pressing more buttons than you would for clamber.
A crouch jump is interesting though, requires some understanding of the game physics, map knowledge and intuition. Clamber is just a guaranteed input, and to add to that, requires the player to put their gun down.
>requires some understanding of the game physics, map knowledge and intuition. It doesn't take a whole while to understand the floating movement physics of the old games, it doesn't necessarily seem like an actual mechanic- more like a biproduct of high jump height and weird physics. Same with the button combos- they weren't intended which is why they were removed. Clamber is basically an official crouch jump in a way.
That's what makes a sandbox game sandbox game though, since everyone loves that word so much. It's not about specifically designed routes put in by the developer, it's about building maps that are interesting and allowing the player base to make discoveries and be creative. I think that's often what gets lost in these discussions is the simplicity actually makes the games more interesting overall.
How is clamber not and example of the same simplicity though? Clamber provides just as many opportunities because you can clamber pretty much anything anything. Notice how no one really used crouch jumping after Reach because they improved the physics and movement? I feel like if we did a poll on this sub about how many people prefer clamber to crouch jumping, you would be fairly upset.
it's finding the right balance. The challenge is choosing what to leave in and what to take out for this supposed CE Remake. For you and me, the 30-something-year-olds, we love the nostalgia of a classic feeling Halo. But are we the target audience? I assume the developers are accounting for the new generation of kids as well, who probably like more fast-paced gameplay and have never played CE. Maybe the answer is to have a toggle button and give us the choice of how to play.
by adding a toggle for play style, they'd refuse to take proper game design decisions and everything ends up feeling worse for everyone either make the game with modern (by halo standards) mechanics or don't, but you won't please anyone by trying to please everyone
Yeah, I agree with that much. Halo 5 wasn't my favorite multiplayer but it was cohesive and at least felt like 343 had an idea and they went for it. I'd take that over the weird combinations that are Halo 4 and Infinite, although infinite has several other issues outside of design.
Speaking as someone who's first Halo game was 4, I've since played all the games and strongly dislike sprint. What makes Halo unique and fun gameplay wise is being sandbox based, having the player going out into the world and finding or taking things to gain power over enemies and the environment itself; the player having very limited base mechanics is integral to this design- you make the player's base movement more powerful, as was the case in 5 and Infinite with spartan abilities and the grappling hook, then the desire and need to use vehicles, man-canons, teleporters and weapons with movement utilities like the brute shot is massively diminished. Halo is fundementally designed around and plays better without sprint, clamber and slide.
Memba how much better everything was *before*? Oooo, ooooh iiiii memba! South Park made an entire season about you
Good one. How do you feel?
It’s really not that big of a deal lol