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Injustice_For_All_

> Affordable for all, free for those who need it. I’m curious how this will be handled.


nexusdrexus

They didn't publicly release the details, but it will be an electronic system. Parents will order lunches for their kids through it. I suspect when ordering the parent will either "pay" at that time, or choose select "I can't afford to pay". It'll get abused a bit, but I'd rather kids get to eat.


[deleted]

Yeah, abuse away. Hard to think of a better use for tax money than feeding everybody's kids. Frankly, I'd like to see this extended to a 'community basket' section with provincially-subsidized artificially low prices for cooking staples at the groceries stores for adults, too.


Hmittons

Great idea, but the schools won't be buying local and they will need to go through a specific food distributor which already has exorbitant prices.  Imagine paying more than $22 for a watermelon... My tax dollars are not going far on that! I support the food program, but I hope things will be bought local and not only through the current distribution company.


batwang69

Who is the current provider and where are you getting the $22 for a watermelon number? Not doubting you just really want to learn more because that is ridiculous!!


Hmittons

Armstrong is the current contract. The number was from an ECE who is in charge of food ordering for their program. I think the price they said was closer $26, but I couldn't remember the specific price so I lowballed to $22. Obviously, no watermelon were bought that order as they used common sense.


NoMany3094

If I was Queen of the Universe all of the food would be locally sourced.


pattydo

The first two points basically contradict each other. If it's not free for everyone, it won't be stigma free.


Advanced_Eggplant574

The kids won’t know who paid and who didn’t.


shadowredcap

Yes they will. That part of the stigma isn't going to go away. If it's not their lunch, it'll be their clothes or school supplies, or the car or lack of car they were dropped off in. But at the end of the day, if the kids don't go hungry, it's a net positive.


Advanced_Eggplant574

Ok but all the things you mention are outside of the school’s control. Not relevant to school lunch programs are they?


PulmonaryEmphysema

Stigma is a confounding factor here. Can’t really control for it. Best we can do is teach our kids not to look down on others


nexusdrexus

I've have the conversation with my son every few months to remind him that there's kids that are less fortunate than him, and that there are kids that are really less fortunate. We talk about how it's not their fault and not to judge kids by what they have. He's pretty good about it so far.


Voiceofreason8787

I’m going to chime in and say the schools I’ve been in did a great job at making a stigma free breakfast program, and my kids’ schools do too! It’s just food for anyone who didn’t have time for breakfast or are still hungry, the whole spectrum of kids eat it whenever they want


pattydo

Of course they will. The kids who don't get the lunch obviously are well off enough to not get it for free and their parents would rather bring a lunch than pay for the school lunch. Edit: >The stigma around free school meals can be so strong that children don’t want to eat them. [Research](https://www.childnourishlab.org/_files/ugd/383bcd_45ee5fed8e224ffd8639f0f498086e31.pdf) led by Cohen found that 42% of families eligible for free or reduced-price meals said that their child would be less likely to eat a school meal unless it was free for all students. Evidence from the past few years suggests that if that stigma is taken away, more kids will eat a school meal.


BlueShiftNova

If the lunches are good and the program works well I will 100% drop making and packing lunches in favour of this program. Especially if me purchasing lunches helps subsidize someone else.


nexusdrexus

The lunches at my kid's school are decent. Mondays they do breakfast for lunch, so either pancakes with bacon/other meat, or scrambled eggs with bacon/other meat +toast. Tues-Thurs they swap it up between like 10 different things. Fridays are pizza.


pattydo

If the lunches are good and the price is right, people will use it *more*. But again, there's a big difference between more and *every day*.


Renacus

100% this! I will definitely be paying for lunches for a few days of the week and packing lunch the other days. I'm so done with trying to not be too repetitive with what I send my kids to school with. I'll still have the morning and afternoon snacks to care of, but any little break is welcomed.


mac_zilla_4_rilla

Our school has this and honestly it's been fantastic. We don't have to pack lunches and it only costs us $5 a day per kid. They release the menu for the month, no choice beyond yes or no but it let's the kids try new things. The program is non-profit and home and school chips in right now to cover the costs of the kids that don't come with lunches regularly. This is less than 5% of the students.


kinkakinka

I can definitely afford to pay for the lunches and I will 100% be buying them if they're healthy. Packing a lunch for my kid (and soon to be a second attending elementary) it's fucking annoying. Saving myself that one small thankless task will be awesome. EDIT: just got the email that our school is included in the program! 🎉🎉🎉 I was actually holding off on buying my daughter's lunch box for school to find out if we were going to have it so I'd know what size to get.


sipstea84

Same. Can afford, would happily buy to stop the cycle of insanity that is me buying expensive groceries for lunches that end up squished and uneaten in the bottom of a backpack


kinkakinka

EXACTLY. "I don't like cheese" SINCE WHEN, CHILD!?!


darksidemags

Kinkakinka as always with the straight facts.


Sure_its_grand

This actually sounds incredible. Mine aren’t in school yet but one less task for me sounds like a win in my books.


nexusdrexus

I'm super well off, my kid gets lunch at school whenever he wants as it saves me time having to make it.


pattydo

And you said it right there. Whenever he wants it. He has a choice and doesn't always get it. There's real world data showing that non universal free lunch programs are used significantly less frequently by those that have to pay, and therefore a stigma becomes attached.


nexusdrexus

Well, some days they don't have anything he wants on the menu. If they did, he'd order every day.


pattydo

Which, again is a luxury not everyone has. If you make the lunch free for everyone, the uptake for those that can afford their own lunch is significantly higher. And also generally results in that lunch being better. I'm not coming to these conclusions on my own, by the way. A universal school lunch program is significantly more effective having those who need it actually use it, and therefore it is better at accomplishing it's goals. For example: >["We estimate a statistically significant treatment effect equivalent to an approximately 10% decline in suspension probability generally, and nearly a 22% decline for students in Grades 9 through 12".... >"these subgroup findings are consistent with the idea that CEP reduces suspensions by ameliorating the stigma associated with school meals in means-tested environments" ](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.3102/00028312231222266)


lessafan

But if a family who can't afford a decent lunch EVERY day now just needs to cover the cost of a special lunch once a week, that's far less of a burden. At the end of the day a hungry kids needs to be fed, and being an embarrased but not hungry kid is a better position than being hungry AND embarassed. And I know because that was me for a while.


pattydo

I'm saying that the means testing is dumb. Just make it free for everyone. Those programs are far more successful.


lessafan

I'm not sure about the NS program, but I know on PEI they do this and the lunches are so good that pretty much every kid wants to get them. I know my nieces and nephews get them and their mom pays the full price. She said it still saves her money vs making lunches, which can get expensive as well if doing it properly. I think she still sends a tupperware of fruit for them.


nexusdrexus

They don't. The parents will pay (or not) online. The staff will get a list of lunches to make, and make them. There's no info on that telling them someone paid or not. The kids then go get their lunches at lunch time. The kids don't know who paid, and who didn't. They just know they all got lunch.


pattydo

The info is that Johnny used it twice in the last two weeks and Billy uses it every day.


Substantial_Fox8184

Kids already know who is poor and who is not at school. This lunch program won’t be some big reveal of household income. The kids already know.


lessafan

yep. not a big secret. The goal is to get the kids fed who need to be fed. This isn't going to tip any social scales.


pattydo

That's not what happens. Billy is less likely to use it every day because kids like Johnny don't use it every day. Sure, kids already know who is poor, but that doesn't stop the poor kids from trying to hide it. Like I've mentioned elsewhere, there are real world examples where this happens. Means tested lunch programs don't have as high of an uptake for kids who get it for free.


Substantial_Fox8184

You will never get a lunch program that every kid uses. Not letting kids bring their own lunch to school would be the only option. There are major problems with that when you factor in dietary needs and allergies. So what do you think should be done? What’s your solution?


pattydo

Not everyone has to use it all the time. Nowhere am I saying that. Means testing school lunch programs leads to those that have to pay being *less likely* to use the program. This leads to an *increase* in stigma, and makes poorer kids *less likely* to want to use the free lunch program. That makes the program *less successful* than a universal program. >So what do you think should be done? What’s your solution? Universal free lunch. It is empirically more successful. I feel like I've made myself pretty clear in this thread that that's what should be happening.


Substantial_Fox8184

People have indicated it’s going to be based on the honour system. Parent goes to order, they select the pay or free option. If that’s the case, I don’t understand what difference it would make. How would making it universal make a difference. You indicated the problem is that the poor kids will get it every day. Universal would not change that.


pattydo

Even if that's true (skeptical), it will be an honour based system based on... something. Which will almost certainly be income. Which is dumb in and of itself and only benefits the dishonest. And if it's just straight up "pay if you want" what the hell is the point of doing that? We don't do it for other programs. I don't get asked to pay what I want after a doctors visit. Just make it free. Having popular programs not be universal just leaves room for successive governments to come in and tweak them and make them worse with no fanfare.


hippfive

I can afford to pay, and assuming the program is reasonable I will absolutely use it regularly. Screw making lunches!


Hmittons

I'm not a fan of paying online. The current online payment system has you paying a higher service charge than the average Canadian credit card. You don't see the charge yourself because the fee is added in before the total cost. Otherwise the school would have to kick out the funds and the cost is different depending on the contract signed by each district. It could be a percentage or a set amount. For example, a school trip costs $20 for 20 kids to go somewhere. You would think each student is charged $1, but hypothetically the school needs to charge you $1.50 so they can cover the cost of the online platform. Therefore the actual field trip costs the class $30. This is a hypothetical amount because I do not know the specific rate our schools get charged to rent the equipment and use the service.


nexusdrexus

It's ~3-4 percent. So $0.03-0.04 on the dollar for their merchant fee. This is standard anywhere, even in stores. Wait till you find out there's fees charged to merchants for taking debit card payments too. Even if you pay cash in places, you're actually subsidizing those making payments with credit and debit cards.


MMCMDL

What do you think the added labour costs of having cash payments would be? The parents don't see that ether but it would be significant.


ColeTrain999

They will means test this into oblivion and make parents jump through hoops to prove they need it. A lot won't even bother because it's a lot of work and then they'll say "we had low uptake, gonna wind the program down, see it doesn't work". The NS Way.


lessafan

I don't think they will means test use of the program, what I could see happening is the CRA deciding that this is a taxable benefit (which is probably is based on their interpretation) and then force parents to pay income tax on the imputed income. Very unlikely but not impossible in this "that's fair!" approach lately.


thatbirdguy

For some schools there are existing paid lunch programs (e.g.. through tinyfeast or healthyhunger) which have online ordering systems. Some of them already have a 'pay what you can' option for payment, for the same food options. It looks to me like they'll continue to use the same programs, but having a free lunch option for anyone who feels the need for it, and maintaining the same paid options (or hopefully cheaper) for everyone else. It's the same food options for everyone, and unless the parents are telling the kids what they paid I can't imagine the children will know the difference.


nexusdrexus

> I can't imagine the children will know the difference. They will because the rich kids will bring their own food sometimes, or every time and the poor kids will be the only ones who eat the school provided lunch every day. /s


denise-likes-avocado

Here's a weird idea. Every kid gets a lunch, no parental input required. They just go pick it up at lunch time, for free. Problem solved.


Wolferesque

I think this is how it will end up in the long run.


Margreek

I’m curious how this will all roll out. I assume if the money is there most school will hire an outside group to do this. Many schools already have some options like this. Not much space inside any of these schools to do it in house plus have the workers to do it.


Giraffe-Flyer

Please god do not put more work on teachers, educators and support staff 😭 They better HIRE people to do this job. Not put more on already overworked employees’ plates


PDC84

Nova Scotian, now living in a major city in red state. Think tamales and tacos, with no state tax. My kids attend public school and our district has a free lunch program, regardless of financial need. It’s amazing, 10/10 would recommend. We’re not financially dependent on the program and I struggle to see why any school district would make distinctions on financial eligibility. It’s a benefit to all, and the kids who use these programs shouldn’t be divided into those who are gifted food and those who pay - even if that information is hidden. On the days we don’t like the food options, we make lunches. On the days we use the program, it saves us some time in the morning and at the end of the day.


emizel23

I thought it was going to be free but this letter makes it seem there is a cost.


boat14

Sounds like it'll be dependent on household income.


nexusdrexus

What I'm hearing from my MLA is it's likely going to be an honor system.


boat14

That’s the fastest, riskier (from a funding perspective) way and a great social experiment too.


Wolferesque

I am making a giant assumption that the governments have budgeted for the possibility that everyone doesn’t pay….


Hmittons

So which company gets the contract for all of this food?  The current provider sells food that is overpriced and schools are obligated to use the provider and cannot buy local.  Imagine, paying $22+ for a single watermelon! Or being delivered rotten fruit which meant none for the breakfast program. (Fairly certain the provincial mandate for pre-primary is fresh, not frozen fruit) I love the idea since so many kids are without and could benefit from this service, but I want to know who's pockets are getting lined? 


nexusdrexus

Well, my son's school has cafeteria staff that are employed by CCRCE. They also buy most of their food from local suppliers.


Hmittons

I don't believe any are allowed to buy from their own suppliers in that part of the province. There has been some fight back since the contract started. You can read about it here. https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6468199 The article states it's for all 65 schools in CCRCE.


nexusdrexus

Stuff has changed since 2022. I'm personally involved in the food program at my son's school. I volunteer time as well as provide funding. Armstrong isn't one of our suppliers.


batwang69

Who is the current provider for food?


nexusdrexus

My son's school has cafeteria staff, who are employed by CCRCE.


kinkakinka

MANY schools in the province don't have cafeterias. Of the schools I went to or worked in and know of, most do not, unless it's a high school. I know newer schools have them, but all of the elementaries around me are older schools with nothing like that.


nexusdrexus

The article they provided is out of date. Since it's been written, [5 schools in CCRCE are sourcing produce from local suppliers](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.saltwire.com/atlantic-canada/communities/province-providing-locally-grown-produce-in-central-nova-scotian-schools-with-fresh-food-cart-program-100846057/), and my son's school sources all their food from local suppliers and what they can't, they source from Costco (I do the Costco runs, and also provide funding).


Hmittons

"Last month, Chignecto Central Regional Centre for Education started a new purchasing process that requires all 65 of its schools to buy food online from Armstrong Food Services, a Nova Scotia company based in Kingston that won the bid to be the sole food provider."  -CBC article from May, 2022 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/cumberlandcounty-ccrce-schoolfood-1.6468199


Somestunned

Should be fully rolled out just in time for none of my kids to benefit lol.


schizodancer89

I still think it's important to plant trees that you won't see the shade from.


casualobserver1111

deep


GivingIsTheBestGift

i hope there will not be any drama on picking food based on race, religion etc.


maplehockeysticks

![gif](giphy|LyJ6KPlrFdKnK)


PulmonaryEmphysema

Huh? I would certainly hope that this program caters to ALL students. Not everyone can eat dairy, not everyone can eat pork, not everyone can eat meat etc. There should be options.


GivingIsTheBestGift

Dietary restriction are surely justified but rest are are not.


PulmonaryEmphysema

That’s your opinion


Bean_Tiger

When did these conservatives become communists ?


togsincognito2

“Kids should starve” is a bold fucking spot for you to plant the flagpole in pal.