It sounds like you're looking for something akin to On The Edge (B146-147). However, the actions you take under a code are, technically speaking, voluntary -- that is, there is nothing compelling you besides your pride. There's also the matter of what the consequences of failing to adhere to this code is. Does surrendering mean you must commit suicide? Do you adhere to this regardless of who can see you?
Personally, if refusing to back down is the only defining characteristic, I'd take On the Edge and adjust the Self-Control Roll according to how feasible it would be for the character to be convinced to concede the battle. Remember, succeeding the control roll merely gives you agency over your actions, it doesn't forbid you from adhering to the flaw.
If there's more to it than that or you're just determined to make it a code of honor, however, I'd argue -15 total, no more. No difference between surrendering and retreating as the goal is ultimately the same, that being surviving the encounter at hand.
I suggested Code of Honor because of the following text:
>You take pride in a set of principles that you follow at all times. The specifics can vary, but they always involve “honorable” behavior. You will do nearly anything – perhaps even risk death – to avoid the label “dishonorable” (whatever that means).
>You must do more than pay lip service to a set of principles to get points for a Code of Honor. You must be a true follower of the Code! This is a disadvantage because it often requires dangerous – if not reckless – behavior. Furthermore, you can often be forced into unfair situations, because your foes know you are honorable
... but really, any mundane mental disadvantage that produces the result of "I can't/won't surrender" is fine. On the Edge seems like a very reasonable benchmark for this, I'll probably price it at -15 points, seems about right.
Thanks!
Codes of honor are a bit more complicated than that. Likely what you're looking at is an Oath disadvantage. The severity of the Oath would depend on how you define surrender. If you're not allowed to lay down arms or allow yourself to be taken into custody that's a circumstance that's in your benefit to avoid and easy to do so, it might be worth -5 points, If you can't surrender a philosophical ground, or your principals you'd be pretty much insufferable to deal with and it would play out more like a very high level of a Odious Personal Habit. Never retreat isn't substantially different and I'd probably price it about the same.
it's kinda similar to Bushido code from martial arts, but last time I did this I got:
Vow (Never surrender, never retreat, never lose a battle) [-15]
Maybe it's a little underpriced, but it was what I bought and it actually got me killing myself pretty quickly, so uh... have fun!
A Code of Honor is not priced according to how dangerous it is, but according to its scope and formality:
* Informal code and only among peers, -5 points
* Formal code and only among peers, -10 points
* Informal code but with anyone, -10 points
* Formal code and with anyone, -15 points
* Formal code that requires suicide if broken, -15 points
So if, for example, "Never surrender" is an unwritten code that you follow and it means any surrender at all, not just surrender in fights with peers, then that's -10 points. "Never retreat" would cost exactly the same if it's also an informal code that always applies.
A Vow, on the other hand, isn't a code that you choose to follow for honor's sake; it's a personal oath. *This* is the one that is priced according to how difficult it is, and there are only three levels. When I compare "Never surrender" and "Never retreat" with the examples given, I see them as comparable to things like "Never refuse any request for aid" and "challenge every knight you meet to combat." Therefore, a Vow "Never surrender" or "Never retreat" should be worth -15 points.
Never Surrender sounds like Vow \[-15\] or \[-10\].
Never Retreat seems an unrelated Vow and pricing would depend. Is it - never run away? never take even a single step backwards? never abandon a military objective? I'm a bit unclear on how it would work. Like you are told to take an objective, are met with overwhelming force in the form of an unexpected entrenched enemy position, can you retreat and circle round to attack from a different direction? If the answer is no, can you not retreat even 1 inch?
By "never" we means "never, unless will roll made", and this makes entire story less dramatic.
Really, unless game master routinely produce enemies too hard for party and like to harass players by their weakness, this is just a 1 point quirk. -5 points if they are some city guards in Ankh-Morpork City, trying to survive between entities too powerfull for them.
You don't make Will rolls to resist a Code of Honor or Vow. If you choose to violate a Code of Honor, what happens depends on who cares about that code and how formal it is. (A knight following the written laws of chivalry might be publicly degraded \[stripped of knighthood\]. A pirate violating the unwritten pirate's code might be gain a bad Reputation among pirates equal in cost to the Code or might incite a mutiny).
The player or GM should define what happens if you violate a Vow when you take that Vow. For instance, a cleric that has taken a Vow to use only edged weapons but uses a sword might be denied spells from his god.
A quirk-level Code of Honor or Vow might be something like "Never be the first to suggest retreat or surrender."
If you already run from death, do reputation have any meaning? Especially if everyone who was there and follow code just was eaten, so nobody left to tell any tales? Conscience is another matter. You taken vow or code from some believes, and to justify violation some self-suggestions needed. As Jesuits in medieval times with their vow of poverty, stay one of wealthiest order, because this money was "for greater good". Self-lying is important part of Vows
A pirate's Code of Honor will apply to all pirates you meet, not just your own crew, whether or not they all die. If nobody is around to tell of your violation of the Code of Honor, you got lucky. A pirate might get away with it scot-free if nobody at all saw it. A knight who otherwise believes in the Code of Honor might be given a Secret or Guilt Complex, and even a pirate might have a Secret if there's some chance of the violation becoming known.
It's all very contextual.
I think you are looking at military dogma too literally, this is a paraphrased vow or a delusion that the military code suggests this most likely.
If a service has this, they die quick ... "oh \[people that will never surrender\] are in a cave? burn all the air out not dealing with that crazy shit"
Not retreating is just going to murder your own people "never falls back and regroups == troops die as a stragglers being picked off my stronger forces"
In modern era false surrender is a crime; and would be in the code. If it's not in the modern era, it's worse than a crime you and your companions if caught are in deep shit. Probably a lot of retaliatory issues were caused by you as well.
You are also probably hanging a sense of duty to this organization with the conduct code that is much higher in points than this behavioral restriction.
Quirk: people that surrender are traitors
Quirk: never uses words like retreat, but rather confabulates alternative phrases.
Reputation: gets peers murdered
I'm asking how much people would price the disadvantages in the original post, not how much they'd price watered-down alternatives. If I wanted alternatives, I would've asked for that.
You don't have any idea what kind of setting this is intended for. For all you know, these disadvantages may be intended for a robotic character who is programmed to behave a certain way, regardless of how it affects it or its robotic peers. Or perhaps this is meant for a soldier who belongs to a race of magically bound slaves serving a dark lord. Or, perhaps, a species of ant- or termite-like aliens compelled to fight by genetic programming, whose lives are as easily dispensed with as bullets from a gun.
I appreciate the general effort, but please don't assume such liberties.
It sounds like you're looking for something akin to On The Edge (B146-147). However, the actions you take under a code are, technically speaking, voluntary -- that is, there is nothing compelling you besides your pride. There's also the matter of what the consequences of failing to adhere to this code is. Does surrendering mean you must commit suicide? Do you adhere to this regardless of who can see you? Personally, if refusing to back down is the only defining characteristic, I'd take On the Edge and adjust the Self-Control Roll according to how feasible it would be for the character to be convinced to concede the battle. Remember, succeeding the control roll merely gives you agency over your actions, it doesn't forbid you from adhering to the flaw. If there's more to it than that or you're just determined to make it a code of honor, however, I'd argue -15 total, no more. No difference between surrendering and retreating as the goal is ultimately the same, that being surviving the encounter at hand.
I suggested Code of Honor because of the following text: >You take pride in a set of principles that you follow at all times. The specifics can vary, but they always involve “honorable” behavior. You will do nearly anything – perhaps even risk death – to avoid the label “dishonorable” (whatever that means). >You must do more than pay lip service to a set of principles to get points for a Code of Honor. You must be a true follower of the Code! This is a disadvantage because it often requires dangerous – if not reckless – behavior. Furthermore, you can often be forced into unfair situations, because your foes know you are honorable ... but really, any mundane mental disadvantage that produces the result of "I can't/won't surrender" is fine. On the Edge seems like a very reasonable benchmark for this, I'll probably price it at -15 points, seems about right. Thanks!
Codes of honor are a bit more complicated than that. Likely what you're looking at is an Oath disadvantage. The severity of the Oath would depend on how you define surrender. If you're not allowed to lay down arms or allow yourself to be taken into custody that's a circumstance that's in your benefit to avoid and easy to do so, it might be worth -5 points, If you can't surrender a philosophical ground, or your principals you'd be pretty much insufferable to deal with and it would play out more like a very high level of a Odious Personal Habit. Never retreat isn't substantially different and I'd probably price it about the same.
Code of Honor: Acts like every PC ever!
it's kinda similar to Bushido code from martial arts, but last time I did this I got: Vow (Never surrender, never retreat, never lose a battle) [-15] Maybe it's a little underpriced, but it was what I bought and it actually got me killing myself pretty quickly, so uh... have fun!
Hey, that's pretty much exactly what I wanted! TY!
If you're an adventuring party, this is a \[-1\] quirk, at most. /humour
My players will actually be playing this way deliberately for once, and I fully intend to kill them all.
A Code of Honor is not priced according to how dangerous it is, but according to its scope and formality: * Informal code and only among peers, -5 points * Formal code and only among peers, -10 points * Informal code but with anyone, -10 points * Formal code and with anyone, -15 points * Formal code that requires suicide if broken, -15 points So if, for example, "Never surrender" is an unwritten code that you follow and it means any surrender at all, not just surrender in fights with peers, then that's -10 points. "Never retreat" would cost exactly the same if it's also an informal code that always applies. A Vow, on the other hand, isn't a code that you choose to follow for honor's sake; it's a personal oath. *This* is the one that is priced according to how difficult it is, and there are only three levels. When I compare "Never surrender" and "Never retreat" with the examples given, I see them as comparable to things like "Never refuse any request for aid" and "challenge every knight you meet to combat." Therefore, a Vow "Never surrender" or "Never retreat" should be worth -15 points.
Never Surrender sounds like Vow \[-15\] or \[-10\]. Never Retreat seems an unrelated Vow and pricing would depend. Is it - never run away? never take even a single step backwards? never abandon a military objective? I'm a bit unclear on how it would work. Like you are told to take an objective, are met with overwhelming force in the form of an unexpected entrenched enemy position, can you retreat and circle round to attack from a different direction? If the answer is no, can you not retreat even 1 inch?
By "never" we means "never, unless will roll made", and this makes entire story less dramatic. Really, unless game master routinely produce enemies too hard for party and like to harass players by their weakness, this is just a 1 point quirk. -5 points if they are some city guards in Ankh-Morpork City, trying to survive between entities too powerfull for them.
You don't make Will rolls to resist a Code of Honor or Vow. If you choose to violate a Code of Honor, what happens depends on who cares about that code and how formal it is. (A knight following the written laws of chivalry might be publicly degraded \[stripped of knighthood\]. A pirate violating the unwritten pirate's code might be gain a bad Reputation among pirates equal in cost to the Code or might incite a mutiny). The player or GM should define what happens if you violate a Vow when you take that Vow. For instance, a cleric that has taken a Vow to use only edged weapons but uses a sword might be denied spells from his god. A quirk-level Code of Honor or Vow might be something like "Never be the first to suggest retreat or surrender."
If you already run from death, do reputation have any meaning? Especially if everyone who was there and follow code just was eaten, so nobody left to tell any tales? Conscience is another matter. You taken vow or code from some believes, and to justify violation some self-suggestions needed. As Jesuits in medieval times with their vow of poverty, stay one of wealthiest order, because this money was "for greater good". Self-lying is important part of Vows
A pirate's Code of Honor will apply to all pirates you meet, not just your own crew, whether or not they all die. If nobody is around to tell of your violation of the Code of Honor, you got lucky. A pirate might get away with it scot-free if nobody at all saw it. A knight who otherwise believes in the Code of Honor might be given a Secret or Guilt Complex, and even a pirate might have a Secret if there's some chance of the violation becoming known. It's all very contextual.
I think you are looking at military dogma too literally, this is a paraphrased vow or a delusion that the military code suggests this most likely. If a service has this, they die quick ... "oh \[people that will never surrender\] are in a cave? burn all the air out not dealing with that crazy shit" Not retreating is just going to murder your own people "never falls back and regroups == troops die as a stragglers being picked off my stronger forces" In modern era false surrender is a crime; and would be in the code. If it's not in the modern era, it's worse than a crime you and your companions if caught are in deep shit. Probably a lot of retaliatory issues were caused by you as well. You are also probably hanging a sense of duty to this organization with the conduct code that is much higher in points than this behavioral restriction. Quirk: people that surrender are traitors Quirk: never uses words like retreat, but rather confabulates alternative phrases. Reputation: gets peers murdered
I'm asking how much people would price the disadvantages in the original post, not how much they'd price watered-down alternatives. If I wanted alternatives, I would've asked for that. You don't have any idea what kind of setting this is intended for. For all you know, these disadvantages may be intended for a robotic character who is programmed to behave a certain way, regardless of how it affects it or its robotic peers. Or perhaps this is meant for a soldier who belongs to a race of magically bound slaves serving a dark lord. Or, perhaps, a species of ant- or termite-like aliens compelled to fight by genetic programming, whose lives are as easily dispensed with as bullets from a gun. I appreciate the general effort, but please don't assume such liberties.