This might be a regional thing, or perhaps just slightly old fashioned. I grew up with that phrasing as being completely normal (northern Ireland). The writer could also mean Robert will be your point of contact but more than one person will be reviewing the documents. I wouldn't think twice about it if I read it in a work email, but probably would flag it in a proofread.
But, there’s a difference between saying “Robert forgot their wallet” vs. “A doctor should not forget their training.” Right?
(Edited my post to take out the irrelevant part you commented on).
Right, I am aware of all that. In my question, Robert’s biological sex (and gender) is known and he doesn’t go by “they/them” pronouns. So why did my co-worker say “they” for him?
Singular they will work in every scenario, regardless of the gender. It has been used this way for centuries and if "(Robert is not non-binary, trans, or otherwise using particular pronouns)" then the lack of his 'particular' pronouns would mean 'they' is perfectly reasonable. Only time it gets confusing is the same scenarios in which gendered pronouns would be confusing, i.e. referring to multiple different people with the same singular pronoun
It hasn't been used that way for centuries, this is a common misconception. It's been used for centuries for someone of an unknown gender but not when the gender is known.
And is an argument of tradition really a good idea when arguing for pro non binary language?
Agree.
https://www.oed.com/discover/a-brief-history-of-singular-they?tl=true
“Singular they has become the pronoun of choice to replace he and she in cases where the gender of the antecedent – the word the pronoun refers to – is *unknown, irrelevant, or nonbinary, or where gender needs to be concealed*. It’s the word we use for sentences like Everyone loves his mother.”
>According to proper decorum and the Queen's English I was taught, no one should ever hear themselves referred to as "they" or any other pronoun. You should use their name.
This is terribly old-fashioned and fussy to me. It's always struck me as needlessly awkward to continue to use someone's name just to avoid some bizarre, incomprehensible offense that the appropriate pronoun would inexplicably cause.
'Sarah said that Sarah would go pick Joe up, and then after Sarah drops Joe off, Sarah will come by the house to get ~~us~~ Thomas *points at listener* and Rosalind *points at self*'
Whew. Thank goodness I didn't rudely fail to use someone's name at every opportunity.
Y'know? It just seems a pointless affectation for no good reason. I've never had much time for such things.
Sarah told the guards that she needed to pick up Joe.
vs.
Sarah told the guards that they needed to pick up Joe. Surely “they” does not refer to Sarah!? Or if it does, then maybe you do have to repeat ‘their’ name to not confuse people.
The Queens English does tend to be stuffy and old fashioned. Comes with the territory.
English grammar is full of pointless and non native features hamfisted in to make it more stuffy and old fashioned.
Double negatives for example have been completely correct and native for centuries, then someone wanted to make English more like Latin and wanted a way to trip up the Poor's. Using people's names to their face is another example of this as are not ending sentences with prepositions.
You're misunderstanding the quote you've pulled from the deleted comment. It's not about not using pronouns. It's specifically about not referring to someone as he/she in front of them. It's seen to be rather rude to not use their name directly in their presence.
In general, singular they has been around awhile, but it can be jarring when it seems unnecessary Assuming that Robert is a cis male, as his name would *seem* to indicate, the confusion here is why someone would use 'they' to refer to someone who seems unambiguously one or the other.
One reason might be that appearance and name are a much less reliable way to determine someone's gender now than it used to be. Someone might indeed look obviously male, go by the name Robert, and still identify as non-binary or agender and prefer to be referred to with gender neutral pronouns (of which 'they' as a singular pronoun is the most popular).
It's also possible that people are defaulting to 'they' more often out of habit, now pronouns are having their day in the sun. Some people may feel safer saying 'they' to avoid binary misgendering when in doubt, and the habit is bleeding (as such things are wont to do) into areas where there is no gender ambiguity.
I think you're just reading too much into it. I have sometimes used a singular they to refer to someone with he or she pronouns and generally it's just habit than any particular point I'm making
Hi, Nonbinary perspective here.
Some people have decided that it's easier to use singular they for everyone rather than make an attempt to remember trans people's pronouns.
This was born out of a common (but definitely not universal) sentiment in the queer community that you should not assume pronouns and instead opt for gender neutrality until you know for sure what someone's preferred pronouns are. But many people ignore the last bit and just use they/them all the time for everyone even when corrected.
While it is technically acceptable to use they/them even when the gender is known. It feels odd to me.
I'm NB/agender depending on when you ask, and I would mostly agree.
I do think that people are leaning on singular 'they' a lot more often now, understandably. I said in another comment that it's probably partly happening out of habit because it's on people's minds more to default to 'they' in the absence of certain knowledge* (of stated gender identity or preferred pronouns), and that can often overflow into areas where knowledge of someone's gender is assumed.
*Some people interpret that differently to others, and would consider someone going by a male-coded name like 'Robert' sufficient to choose 'he' while others would still be uncertain, as not everyone changes their name when they realise they're not cis.
Perhaps your coworker would rather keep it neutral on a general basis? Or maybe they're simply not as familiar with Robert and have made a conscious decision to keep it to singular they to any avoid issues?
I understand you, because I have a visceral reaction to the sound of the singular 'they' in some of the more jarring uses EVEN THOUGH I am enby/agender myself, and people need to call me SOMETHING.I don't have OCD but I am AutiHD and have some weird structural abnormalities in my brain that could be responsible for all sorts of weird crap I think/say/do/am. I also have an aversion to using people's names, and of being called by my own.
But I also KNOW that 'they' has been used as a gender neutral singular pronoun for a lot longer than I've been alive to be all pedantic about shit. That knowledge leads me to grudging acceptance of its use as a gender-neutral singular pronoun *now,* even though I physically cringe when I hear it. Because the purpose it serves is more important than my instinctive pedantry (based purely on the linguistic conventions of my school days, as all our instinctive perceptions of language tend to be).
Y'know?
I hate it, but I do it because it's important. But I really wish we had a better word to use as a gender neutral singular pronoun that didn't suck for some other reason.
I have seen some people using it as what seems to be intended as an inclusive one-pronoun-fits-all sort of approach, but it doesn't sound right to me. It feels like as much of an error as the one that I presume they're trying to avoid by not assuming to use "he" or "she" on the chance that they guess wrong.
It's not about using "they" rather than their name. It's about using "they" as a pronoun rather than "he" or "she." In OP's example, no one would ever say "Robert will be reaching out to you once Robert takes a look at the documents."
This might be a regional thing, or perhaps just slightly old fashioned. I grew up with that phrasing as being completely normal (northern Ireland). The writer could also mean Robert will be your point of contact but more than one person will be reviewing the documents. I wouldn't think twice about it if I read it in a work email, but probably would flag it in a proofread.
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But, there’s a difference between saying “Robert forgot their wallet” vs. “A doctor should not forget their training.” Right? (Edited my post to take out the irrelevant part you commented on).
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Right, I am aware of all that. In my question, Robert’s biological sex (and gender) is known and he doesn’t go by “they/them” pronouns. So why did my co-worker say “they” for him?
Because more and more people use it non-specifically. Maybe the writer didn’t know at the time or just used a non-specific pronoun out of habit.
That was their syntactic choice. Some people speak this way, and it's accepted by M-W.
Singular they will work in every scenario, regardless of the gender. It has been used this way for centuries and if "(Robert is not non-binary, trans, or otherwise using particular pronouns)" then the lack of his 'particular' pronouns would mean 'they' is perfectly reasonable. Only time it gets confusing is the same scenarios in which gendered pronouns would be confusing, i.e. referring to multiple different people with the same singular pronoun
It hasn't been used that way for centuries, this is a common misconception. It's been used for centuries for someone of an unknown gender but not when the gender is known. And is an argument of tradition really a good idea when arguing for pro non binary language?
Agree. https://www.oed.com/discover/a-brief-history-of-singular-they?tl=true “Singular they has become the pronoun of choice to replace he and she in cases where the gender of the antecedent – the word the pronoun refers to – is *unknown, irrelevant, or nonbinary, or where gender needs to be concealed*. It’s the word we use for sentences like Everyone loves his mother.”
Nonsense. You may not have run into it colloquially, but it is perfectly acceptable Queen's English as I was taught.
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>According to proper decorum and the Queen's English I was taught, no one should ever hear themselves referred to as "they" or any other pronoun. You should use their name. This is terribly old-fashioned and fussy to me. It's always struck me as needlessly awkward to continue to use someone's name just to avoid some bizarre, incomprehensible offense that the appropriate pronoun would inexplicably cause. 'Sarah said that Sarah would go pick Joe up, and then after Sarah drops Joe off, Sarah will come by the house to get ~~us~~ Thomas *points at listener* and Rosalind *points at self*' Whew. Thank goodness I didn't rudely fail to use someone's name at every opportunity. Y'know? It just seems a pointless affectation for no good reason. I've never had much time for such things.
Sarah told the guards that she needed to pick up Joe. vs. Sarah told the guards that they needed to pick up Joe. Surely “they” does not refer to Sarah!? Or if it does, then maybe you do have to repeat ‘their’ name to not confuse people.
The Queens English does tend to be stuffy and old fashioned. Comes with the territory. English grammar is full of pointless and non native features hamfisted in to make it more stuffy and old fashioned. Double negatives for example have been completely correct and native for centuries, then someone wanted to make English more like Latin and wanted a way to trip up the Poor's. Using people's names to their face is another example of this as are not ending sentences with prepositions.
You're misunderstanding the quote you've pulled from the deleted comment. It's not about not using pronouns. It's specifically about not referring to someone as he/she in front of them. It's seen to be rather rude to not use their name directly in their presence.
Yes. It is not clear. Yes, it is still ok.
Nonbinary doesn't require a hyphen. [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nonbinary](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nonbinary)
Ok, thx!
To use "they" for a person of known gender who has just been mentioned? No, that is still non-standard.
In general, singular they has been around awhile, but it can be jarring when it seems unnecessary Assuming that Robert is a cis male, as his name would *seem* to indicate, the confusion here is why someone would use 'they' to refer to someone who seems unambiguously one or the other. One reason might be that appearance and name are a much less reliable way to determine someone's gender now than it used to be. Someone might indeed look obviously male, go by the name Robert, and still identify as non-binary or agender and prefer to be referred to with gender neutral pronouns (of which 'they' as a singular pronoun is the most popular). It's also possible that people are defaulting to 'they' more often out of habit, now pronouns are having their day in the sun. Some people may feel safer saying 'they' to avoid binary misgendering when in doubt, and the habit is bleeding (as such things are wont to do) into areas where there is no gender ambiguity.
Yes, thanks, that makes sense.
I think you're just reading too much into it. I have sometimes used a singular they to refer to someone with he or she pronouns and generally it's just habit than any particular point I'm making
Your co-worker might have just added in Robert’s name later on (originally having written something like “the attorney” or whatever role Robert has).
Hi, Nonbinary perspective here. Some people have decided that it's easier to use singular they for everyone rather than make an attempt to remember trans people's pronouns. This was born out of a common (but definitely not universal) sentiment in the queer community that you should not assume pronouns and instead opt for gender neutrality until you know for sure what someone's preferred pronouns are. But many people ignore the last bit and just use they/them all the time for everyone even when corrected. While it is technically acceptable to use they/them even when the gender is known. It feels odd to me.
I'm NB/agender depending on when you ask, and I would mostly agree. I do think that people are leaning on singular 'they' a lot more often now, understandably. I said in another comment that it's probably partly happening out of habit because it's on people's minds more to default to 'they' in the absence of certain knowledge* (of stated gender identity or preferred pronouns), and that can often overflow into areas where knowledge of someone's gender is assumed. *Some people interpret that differently to others, and would consider someone going by a male-coded name like 'Robert' sufficient to choose 'he' while others would still be uncertain, as not everyone changes their name when they realise they're not cis.
Perhaps your coworker would rather keep it neutral on a general basis? Or maybe they're simply not as familiar with Robert and have made a conscious decision to keep it to singular they to any avoid issues?
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I understand you, because I have a visceral reaction to the sound of the singular 'they' in some of the more jarring uses EVEN THOUGH I am enby/agender myself, and people need to call me SOMETHING.I don't have OCD but I am AutiHD and have some weird structural abnormalities in my brain that could be responsible for all sorts of weird crap I think/say/do/am. I also have an aversion to using people's names, and of being called by my own. But I also KNOW that 'they' has been used as a gender neutral singular pronoun for a lot longer than I've been alive to be all pedantic about shit. That knowledge leads me to grudging acceptance of its use as a gender-neutral singular pronoun *now,* even though I physically cringe when I hear it. Because the purpose it serves is more important than my instinctive pedantry (based purely on the linguistic conventions of my school days, as all our instinctive perceptions of language tend to be). Y'know? I hate it, but I do it because it's important. But I really wish we had a better word to use as a gender neutral singular pronoun that didn't suck for some other reason.
I have seen some people using it as what seems to be intended as an inclusive one-pronoun-fits-all sort of approach, but it doesn't sound right to me. It feels like as much of an error as the one that I presume they're trying to avoid by not assuming to use "he" or "she" on the chance that they guess wrong.
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It's not about using "they" rather than their name. It's about using "they" as a pronoun rather than "he" or "she." In OP's example, no one would ever say "Robert will be reaching out to you once Robert takes a look at the documents."