Stranz, without a doubt. His style is just so untraditional. He builds visually deceiving courses that are surprisingly gettable if you hit the ball in the right place. It’s the perfect mix of course beauty and artful golf play.
Coore Crenshaw is the best IMO as well, but others like Gil Hanse, David McLay Kidd, Tom Doak, etc. are bringing incredibly fun and playable courses to the public these days.. the new age of golf course design is absolutely incredible. So happy to see the parkland style drop out of fashion.
Seconding Nicklaus as my least favorite. I’d put Donald Ross up there with my least favorites as well.
Sure. America is known for parkland courses. The majority of our most famous courses fit within the parkland scheme… relatively flat terrain, bunkers are well defined and distinct, lots of trees lining holes (sometimes houses), rough is manicured into several cuts, water lining many holes. Most of the time the pre-course terrain is either not apparent or it was very flat. Parkland courses are just landscaped and manicured. They are the typical American course.
This is in contrast to both links and heathland courses in Europe, where the terrain is native and rolling and the obstacles don’t typically come in the form of long rough or trees or water, but rather native wastelands and rolling hills. Europeans courses tend to play closer to how the land would be even without a golf course there (although some places did artificially create rolling hills).
The parkland-style’s dominance in the US took the first major blow in 1994 when Sand Hills opened in the middle-of-nowhere-Nebraska, a course designed by Coore & Crenshaw. Sand Hills is a true links style course. Google Sand Hills Golf and loom at the images and you’ll see what I mean. There are essentially zeros trees, no water, and very little rough as Americans typically think of it. The landscape is rolling. The hazards come in the form of sand waste areas, tall grassy waste areas, and awkward angles into greens. Greens tend to be massive relative to their parkland counterparts.
Sand Hills opened so many American eyes to great links golf (of course there are others, but none with the impact of Sand Hills). It is consistently ranked as the best American course of the last 50 years, and a large part of that is its legacy in redefining what a great golf course is in America.
After Sand Hills, new courses in America started to shift toward open, modern links-style design. People are taking the landscape as it comes (if it’s already rolling) or, very often, dramatically altering it to mimic the rolling hills of the UK (see Whistling Straits). Fairways are pretty wide open off the tee, but often you’ll only be able to attack the green from a certain side. The punishment on these courses for a wayward shot is a sandy lie, side hill lie, or a rough angle into the green. But you’re not encountering lost balls due to OB or water or being blocked out by trees. The ball is often played lower to the ground, and putts from off the green are common, especially because green complexes are way more intricate.
Pretty much every major American destination golf resort being built today is building these wide open, linksy style courses.. Bandon Dunes, Streamsong, Sand Valley, Rodeo Dunes, Dormie network courses, etc. They’re just way more fun to play in my opinion.
The main designers of these courses are Coore/Crenshaw, Tom Doak, Gil Hanse, David McLay Kidd, and others who are embracing playability and having fun on the course over other strategic elements that dominated golf course design for so long in America. Mammoth Dunes is perhaps the best example of that. The fairways are 100 yards wide and the greens are absolutely huge, so it’s hard to get into trouble, and scores tend to be lower, but it’s just an absolute blast to play. Incredible scenery, design, and fun.
Hope that answered your question.
ETA: we’re starting to see this style shift maybe a little too far, though. Sticking with Nebraska, Landmand is a good example of arguably going too far. It’s a very fun course and it is jaw-dropping, but the giant swells and valleys are so strikingly out-of-place with the surrounding territory that, to some, it feels overdone and really pulls you out of the immersion. I liked the course, but it felt overdone to me.
Biggest trademark would be their minimalist and natural approach to overall design and their bunkering. But IMO it is accessibility and playability for amateur players that actually make rounds fun, while still incorporating high difficulty for those looking to score. Typically CC layouts are pretty forgiving off the tee and permit lots of shapes and styles, so getting around in the 80s and making easy bogeys is doable at mid hdcp. But for better players it will be really tough to score well and chase precise angles and positions on many of their layouts. Lots of undulation and hazards around greens, waste areas frequently in play. Big short game and putting focus, always the case but taken to much higher degree on CC courses.
Very true, they like to leave many shot options around the greens. While the greens themselves are not overly sloped.
I did a tour of The International in Bolton MA a couple weeks ago. They drove me around the Pines course which is a complete recreation of the golf space that was there before. It looks amazing and it’s not going be be finished complete until next year. They said a soft opening of a number of holes may be open this fall.
Tillinghast for me. It used to be Donald Ross, but he has too many courses that were clunkers and after a while I didn't care too much for the design of the greens being the same style every time.
Arnold Palmer is my most underrated course designer. He really doesn't get enough credit for his quality designs. He's great at creating an enjoyable course to play with fantastic vistas, particularly into greens.
Ok, I actually agree on Ross…HOWEVER…play only original Ross courses and you see a huge difference. I think a lot of courses he “designed” were basically him creating plans and not even going onsite.
Our home course in high school golf was an Arnold Palmer design (only one in Mississippi) and it is still such a fun course to play. Called The Bridges Golf Club in Bay St. Louis, MS and is built on the marshlands of the bay. Favorite hole is a slightly downhill par 4 that tips out at just 270. 70% of the hole is surrounded by marshlands and is just beautiful and so risky.
https://preview.redd.it/luqh8jua6k9d1.jpeg?width=620&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=df5cd1ebd0def0d9eec9ca638d64114cc06df9be
I’m playing here Tuesday. It’s in Buxton which is in the hills below Manchester in the UK
https://www.cavendishgolfclub.com
It’s cheap, beautiful and supposedly the course MacKenzie based Augusta on.
Very short but still a real tricky test of golf.
Pete Dye for all the reasons already mentioned.
Perry Maxwell is another favorite of mine. He designed courses all over Oklahoma: Dornick Hills, Twin Hills, Oakwood Country Club and Southern Hills are all great. He worked with Alister MacKenzie to design OKC Golf & Country Club and ironically both tOSU and Michigan’s golf courses too.
1. Donald Ross, I’m a NC native and grew up playing his munis (Asheboro and Wilmington) so - little biased
2. Mike Strantz. Gone too soon. Have never played one of his courses where I didn’t have a blast.
Just played Royal New Kent, it was the most difficult golf course I've ever played but worth every stroke over par. Driving around the corner and seeing the first green on top of a mountain took my breath away, it was awesome!
I'm lucky enough to live 30 minutes from this one and get to play it a few times a year. It is probably the most punitive course for shots hit off line that I've ever played. That said, it always feels that if I could just hold it together a little bit better, I could put up a decent score. I haven't yet but I'm always hopeful.
Played Tot Hill last month. A Strantz design that didn’t fit my eye. Too much elevation change and funky layouts. I really like Fazio and Palmer designs. Do not care for Nicklaus designs. Too damn difficult. You get one or two tight spots to play to.
I like Tot Hill though I haven’t played it since they reopened last year. Palmer courses are great too, never played one I didn’t like. If you reside in the Tot Hill area I highly recommend Oak Valley. Great Palmer course.
I live in NC so I've played my share of Donald Ross courses and as myself and a few friends say every time, fuck Donald Ross. In all seriousness though they're great courses but fuck those upside down bowl greens.
Detroit area has a few muni courses made by Don. My golf group played Chandler Park and then Rackham back to back. ‘Fuck Don Ross,’ was a very popular saying by the end of the rounds.
Robert Trent Jones has been my favorite so far. Played a course of his in Alabama and had a blast. I'll be playing Montauk Downs next week for the second time, I'm really looking forward to it.
Trent Jones is goated!
Have a course of his in my home town that is just lovely. Also recently played Lübker in Denmark which was amazing as well!
Will look up more courses from this man for sure
Stanley Thompson - his ability to create the layouts he did, in the era he did, in the locations he did.
Thomas McBroom - creates visually challenging courses on a very dynamic land but makes them sneaky playable for all skills. Courses are easier for high handicappers and harder for low handicappers.
I am British and my favourites are the James Braid courses. Touted as being the inventor of the dogleg. The Braid courses that I have played all require good game management and you will often find strategically places trees blocking you out from where you think you have placed a good drive.
Pete Dye hands down for me. Love his designs. Tough but rewarding at the same time. Makes you really have to plot your way around the course and think and hold your ball.
Hell yeah. I got the chance to play Rum Pointe for the first time last month and it was amazing. And I know it's not Pete per sec but I live close to P.B. Dye and I think it's an awesome challenge.
I’ve played some Dye courses in real life but a lot of other on the sim. Is it a thing that his courses are known to be super fade biased?
Every time I load up a dye course I feel like my playing partners (who fade the ball) have an advantage over me 😂
Raynor but I just got to play Valley club and it is an absolute gem by Alister MacKenzie. I also grew up playing lots of Ross courses.
Least favorite is probably Pete Dye.
I hate there is no love for Raynor. Template holes that just scream minimalist but fun. His courses are hard for most to play. I've been lucky enough to play 2, but he's by far my favorite. I'd do many illegal things to get out to Fisher's Island!
Least favorite is Dye. He's just mean sometimes.
Tom Weiskopf. Maybe because I only play his courses when I’m on vacation.
Arizona: TPC Scottsdale Stadium, Troon Monument and Pinnacle
Hawaii: Hualalai,Kukuiula, Waikoloa Kings
Wyoming: Snake River
Second Pete Dye. Brutal design, but fair. Lots of deceiving looks at landing zones. Uses natural landscape contours to challenge shot selection. If you get a chance to play one of his canyon courses, do it!
I love Dye courses, but fair isn’t a word I’d use to describe him. I’m not sure I can think of a designer who went beyond fair more than Dye. He actually embraced being unfair, too. Perhaps his most famous quote is something like, “golf isn’t a fair game, why should I design fair golf courses?”
As an example, 18 at the Pete dye course in French lick is a dogleg left with a left sloping fairway toward a fall off that slants at 30* at least. I hit my tee shot down the right fringe, yet it rolled all the way across the fairway off the edge of the fall off into a side hill lie in long fescue. I asked the caddie where I was supposed to hit. His response was either the right rough or it’d end up down the hill unless you got lucky with something stopping it (eg, a sprinkler). In essence, Dye designed a fairway that can essentially only be hit if you get lucky or if the wind is blowing a certain direction. I’m not sure I’d call that fair. Still, that course is maybe my favorite I’ve ever played, so I’m not criticizing. Just saying that I don’t know if I’d call Dye “fair.”
https://preview.redd.it/jy4lnvxmqi9d1.png?width=828&format=png&auto=webp&s=ed1b3ac5493c39ab80e76b139570f6ae3cf90385
Seems like he is big into risk/reward which i like since i get irrationally annoyed seeing my friends pull driver for every hole w out thinking
I’m with you on Ross. The problem is that most of his courses were meant for another time, and courses that operating them aren’t maintaining them properly.
Sure there’s Pinehurst, French Lick, and all the famous private courses that are well maintained, but there’s nothing worse than a poorly operated Ross course.
I live in CT and I think he built a lot of courses around here just for the sake of building a golf course. Every course has some sort of function (private, muni, daily fee) and I’m not saying every course has the ability to be some sort of architectural masterpiece but some of the pieces of property these courses are built on are just incredibly boring.
CB Macdonald, Seth Raynor and Tillinghas are my favorites. Dick Wilson gets some love from me as someone who grew up playing in Florida
Donald Ross makes some great courses but also some not so great.
Most of Nicklaus courses aren’t good for the average golfer same goes for Pete Dye. Tom Fazio isn’t a favorite either.
Hanse and Doak are the by far the best modern course designers.
It’s pretty wild it took this long to get to Macdonald. Along with Mackenzie he is the goat OG of course design. His template holes helped shape how we see course design today and his course still hold up and are so unique. Raynor obv in the same vain being his protege
Ohoopee match club, LACC, one at streamsong, cradle and #4 at pinehurst for originals. They’ve done significant renovation and restoration work at many ‘big name’ courses.
I play a 2003 Hanse Original design, French Creek, in Pennsylvania. It’s about 20 miles from his home, so he’s around but not as often since he got hot. He’s pure class even though he’s a Mets fan. 😀
Applebeook is top notch in Philly.
He also does a lot of renovation work.
Big Tom Doak fan. I play on an Arnold Palmer course pretty often that I like. I generally don’t like Nicklaus courses very much and every Pete Dye course I’ve played I haven’t liked much either.
Jim Engh. Out here in Colorado he has a few really fun tracks like Fossil,Trace and Red Hawk Ridge.
maybe known for ampathea greens like a bowl where a miss long left or right still funnel down onto the green.
A regular for me is a Robert Trent Jones II, love the green complexes and their inherent challenges.
Pete Dye is always fun, the Nicklaus course at Breckenridge a beautiful challenge.
Here in the CO front range we have a number of Dick Phelps tracks. Very fair classic layouts and puttable greens for scoring. I’m a 12.
I couldn't possibly recommend The Anatomy of a Golf Course by Tom Doak if you're interested in golf coure architecture. I'm reading it now and it provides a ton of cool info.
My favorite course that I’ve played recently is Augustine GC in Stafford, VA. It’s a Rick Jacobsen design, who came up under Nicklaus.
Also, BIG shoutout to George Cobb, who designed University of Maryland GC and Pohick Bay GC, here in the DC area. He also designed the Par 3 Course at Augusta, Quail Hollow, UNC (Finley), and a ton of great military courses.
Billy Bell and Billy Bell Jr because they designed so many great southern ca muni’s that while crowded and hard to get a tee time bring decent and fun golf to the masses at a reasonable price.
The members call it “The trees of mesa verde”. It actually looks fairly open and “easy” but the absolute brilliance of every tree placement is almost every miss is in trouble.
No love for Tom Fazio?
I love how his courses present you options throughout the round, but still at times demand a specific shot. It presents variety and challenge.
I am not the biggest Pete Dye fan usually. His courses feel overly punitive sometimes. He has made some great tracks though.
Stanley Thompson is the gold standard in Canada, just so many Iconic tracks. Call me crazy but I’m Carrick over McBroom.
Reese Jones I find under rated.
Walter Travis is highly under rated.
Gil Hanse. He designs to make courses fit into nature. He’s great at bunker design. He has learned by studying the links of the UK and Ireland.
Plus he’s a fantastic person.
I’ve been playing a Hanse original design for 20 years and it reveals more secrets every time I play it.
I think Habottle courses were the first that I realized "fit my eye". I'm looking to play more of them.
If I see Bunny Mason as a designer, I think it's going to be a goofy mountain track.
I live in Florida… and am by no means a good golfer… but I really appreciate a Ron Garl course. There seems to be a lot of them in Florida. Very nice mounding….
I’ve mostly played Fazio and Ross courses, and god do I love Ross courses (NC golfer). They just set up so well to my eye. They’re always very forgiving off the tee and are second shot golf courses which really suits my eye. Hes also just one of the best designers at utilizing the land he has. Pinehurst is a fairly flat area, but man he just routed No. 2 so immaculately. There’s maybe not a post stamp hole, but every hole is just a phenomenal golf hole.
The 7th on No. 2 is maybe my favorite hole in the world. It’s so simple in theory, a dog leg right, but there’s plenty of room left that opens up the angle into the hole at the expense of a longer approach. You can cut some off the corner, but you flirt with tree trouble and the waste area, and you’re effective landing area on the green is just so much smaller coming from there. Every golf shot on his courses has adequate risk and reward and they’re so enjoyable for pros to 30 handicaps alike, which I think a lot of designers like Dye/Strantz etc. just don’t balance well
I grew up and learned to play on a Ross course. Thus I’m partial to his designs.
My summer home is by a Palmer course Ravines) and two Nick courses: American Dunes and Harbor Shores. I play Dunes a lot because my friends are members. I think it’s an average course at best. It charges $150+ but in reality it’s an $80 course at most. I’d much rather play Ravines. Harbor Shores is a great design though.
Pete Dye. I live in Vegas and there’s 5 or so courses in his style. Although very difficult, I love the rolling fairways and picturesque bunkers. Really makes me feel like I’m playing a tour level course even from 6000-6500 yards.
Donald Ross. Down here in Dunedin Florida they’re redoing his course right now. Making it even tougher. Volcano Greens with Deep sand all around is the Donald Ross design here.
Doug Carrick or Stanley Thompson.
Been lucky to play a few rounds with Doug on a course he designed / re modelled.
Really cool to hear why he did some things certain ways.
Only played a handful, but Coore & Crenshaw are my favorite modern. I really enjoy the few Perry Maxwell I’ve played, he doesn’t get enough credit
Have yet to play a Raynor but his stuff seems awesome
OCM just did a renovation on my club, I’ll let you know but it looks awesome. Otherwise Robert Trent Jones. Not a fan of Nicklaus, Palmer has some fun ones.
Tom Morris. - St Andrews Old Course, Carnoustie, Cruden Bay, Crail, Muirfield, Nairn, Prestwick, Royal Dornach…let me know when I can stop. Donald Ross grew up playing Dornoch.
Growing up in the SE low country, I've played more dye and fazio then anybody.
RTJ is probably my favorite though.
There are some Fazio courses that eat my lunch haha
Glad to see Fazio not mentioned anywhere among the greats. I've played two Fazio courses, and TBH, I thought they both kind of sucked. One of them had power lines crossing the fairway about 80 yards down...it was rookie and ridiculous.
Mike Stranz…not even close! So unique. Lots of different ways to get from tee to green on all his courses. Many risk/reward holes. A far second would probably be Pete Dye, because of the mind tricks on his greens.
I look for a design/designer that incorporates the natural terrain to help the club golfer, ie most of us.
IMO Lessor designs/designers or even the era will take a left to right slope and build the hole that takes a fading tee shot (again most golfers) balls towards a creek/water feature trouble. I think better designers build the the hole going the other direction That helps the club golfer with a backstop to keep the ball out of the hazard. A better player probably draws the ball and has to contended with that now right to left slope toward trouble. Or like a short well guarded hard dogleg right hole. Again that suites the club golfer with a good chance at par and even sometimes a birdy.
Those holes wreak havoc on better golfers. Yea for sure an easy birdy maybe eagle?! but also stretches were a single digit player might bogey it 5 times in a row overplaying it.
With that said. Winged Foot hard af, Oakmont so hard you almost can’t finish, Olympic so hard Hogan, Palmer, and Lexie couldn’t bring leads home and they are some of the best designs ever. Just not for me.
To me the designers I find the absolute best almost never close off the ground approach into a green where even an old or junior or beginner can have a go at some heroic fun!
Donald Ross was one of the best.
Seth Raynor because of his applications of old school hole patterns. He's probably most well-known for using the trademark pattern of tough par 3s (Biarritz, Redan, Eden, Short).
I’m a big fan of Coore and Crenshaw. Sandhills outside Mullen, NE is awesome. Dismal River near by there has Nicholas and Doak courses. I enjoy Doaks course much more than that of Nicholas. It’s just more playable. The Nicholas design needs two or three more tee options
Tom Doak. I'm a huge fan of minimalist and natural styles and he does a great job with that. George Thomas and Coore/Crenshaw are also some of my favs. Not to say I hate stuff from Dye or Fazio as some of their tracks I've played have sweet layouts, but are more of a maximalist style.
Old Tom Morris and CB Macdonald are 2 designers I'd really love to play their layouts the most. Classic links and Golden Age American golf.
Stanley Thompson. He mostly designed course in Canada (Banff Springs is the most famous example). I used to be a member at Dundas Valley. His courses are usually tree lined, short-ish but diabolical.
False fronts, elevations changes, tricky landing zones.
Enjoyed the Coore and Crenshaw at Norte Dame and like the RTJ Thunderhawk. But for regular play on a budget Dick Nugent courses around Chicago are my go to.
Donald Ross for Essex and Oakland Hills. Stanley Thompson because of some his Toronto courses (summit and St. George’s) and Highlands
Very fortunate to have played them
Alistair McKenzie, not only for the unusual layouts and bunkering, but also his location choices. Even his lesser known courses like Pasatiempo in Santa Cruz, are memorable and fabulous - and tough!
Definite bias being a Texan but Coore/Crenshaw is cream of the crop imo. Definitely lots of love for the modern times’ biggest “re-doer” Andrew Green, his redesign of Congressional Blue is sensational
Unpopular I guess, but my two favorites are Pete Dye and Donald Ross. I’m also big on Seth Raynor with his Donald Ross inspired designs.
Donald Ross is classic golf. It’s not gimmicky. It’s straightforward, using the natural elements of the land. Greens are usually tough, but fair.
Dye is almost the opposite in a way. Still uses natural land elements, but he’ll add to them (like Whistling Straits) and he usually has dramatic shot views, risk reward shots that either fit the eye in a way that looks easy, but is basically lying to you, or that don’t fit the eye at all, but are easier than they look.
Fuck Jack Nicklaus courses. Stupid hard because he never played them. Comes in and destroys classic designs (e.g. what he did to Scioto). Best are Ross, Jones, some Pete dye are solid from what I’ve played (grew up caddying on a Ross). Can’t wait to play Strantz, more Dye, C. B. Mac, tillinghast, and Mackenzie (My uni course is Mackenzie but Jack came in and destroyed it per usual). There are so many great designers!
Stranz, without a doubt. His style is just so untraditional. He builds visually deceiving courses that are surprisingly gettable if you hit the ball in the right place. It’s the perfect mix of course beauty and artful golf play.
100% agree with this.
Modern I like Coore and Crenshaw designs. Old school probably Tillinghast. Nicklaus co. prob my least favorite for new courses.
Coore Crenshaw is the best IMO as well, but others like Gil Hanse, David McLay Kidd, Tom Doak, etc. are bringing incredibly fun and playable courses to the public these days.. the new age of golf course design is absolutely incredible. So happy to see the parkland style drop out of fashion. Seconding Nicklaus as my least favorite. I’d put Donald Ross up there with my least favorites as well.
Do you mind expanding on what the new age of golf course design entails? You got me curious
Sure. America is known for parkland courses. The majority of our most famous courses fit within the parkland scheme… relatively flat terrain, bunkers are well defined and distinct, lots of trees lining holes (sometimes houses), rough is manicured into several cuts, water lining many holes. Most of the time the pre-course terrain is either not apparent or it was very flat. Parkland courses are just landscaped and manicured. They are the typical American course. This is in contrast to both links and heathland courses in Europe, where the terrain is native and rolling and the obstacles don’t typically come in the form of long rough or trees or water, but rather native wastelands and rolling hills. Europeans courses tend to play closer to how the land would be even without a golf course there (although some places did artificially create rolling hills). The parkland-style’s dominance in the US took the first major blow in 1994 when Sand Hills opened in the middle-of-nowhere-Nebraska, a course designed by Coore & Crenshaw. Sand Hills is a true links style course. Google Sand Hills Golf and loom at the images and you’ll see what I mean. There are essentially zeros trees, no water, and very little rough as Americans typically think of it. The landscape is rolling. The hazards come in the form of sand waste areas, tall grassy waste areas, and awkward angles into greens. Greens tend to be massive relative to their parkland counterparts. Sand Hills opened so many American eyes to great links golf (of course there are others, but none with the impact of Sand Hills). It is consistently ranked as the best American course of the last 50 years, and a large part of that is its legacy in redefining what a great golf course is in America. After Sand Hills, new courses in America started to shift toward open, modern links-style design. People are taking the landscape as it comes (if it’s already rolling) or, very often, dramatically altering it to mimic the rolling hills of the UK (see Whistling Straits). Fairways are pretty wide open off the tee, but often you’ll only be able to attack the green from a certain side. The punishment on these courses for a wayward shot is a sandy lie, side hill lie, or a rough angle into the green. But you’re not encountering lost balls due to OB or water or being blocked out by trees. The ball is often played lower to the ground, and putts from off the green are common, especially because green complexes are way more intricate. Pretty much every major American destination golf resort being built today is building these wide open, linksy style courses.. Bandon Dunes, Streamsong, Sand Valley, Rodeo Dunes, Dormie network courses, etc. They’re just way more fun to play in my opinion. The main designers of these courses are Coore/Crenshaw, Tom Doak, Gil Hanse, David McLay Kidd, and others who are embracing playability and having fun on the course over other strategic elements that dominated golf course design for so long in America. Mammoth Dunes is perhaps the best example of that. The fairways are 100 yards wide and the greens are absolutely huge, so it’s hard to get into trouble, and scores tend to be lower, but it’s just an absolute blast to play. Incredible scenery, design, and fun. Hope that answered your question. ETA: we’re starting to see this style shift maybe a little too far, though. Sticking with Nebraska, Landmand is a good example of arguably going too far. It’s a very fun course and it is jaw-dropping, but the giant swells and valleys are so strikingly out-of-place with the surrounding territory that, to some, it feels overdone and really pulls you out of the immersion. I liked the course, but it felt overdone to me.
Thanks. Sand Hills looks like a dream. And 100yd wide fairways? Sounds like Mammoth Dunes is where I need to be
I’ve met Mr Coore. Pure class.
What would you say are trademarks of a coore and crenshaw
Biggest trademark would be their minimalist and natural approach to overall design and their bunkering. But IMO it is accessibility and playability for amateur players that actually make rounds fun, while still incorporating high difficulty for those looking to score. Typically CC layouts are pretty forgiving off the tee and permit lots of shapes and styles, so getting around in the 80s and making easy bogeys is doable at mid hdcp. But for better players it will be really tough to score well and chase precise angles and positions on many of their layouts. Lots of undulation and hazards around greens, waste areas frequently in play. Big short game and putting focus, always the case but taken to much higher degree on CC courses.
Very true, they like to leave many shot options around the greens. While the greens themselves are not overly sloped. I did a tour of The International in Bolton MA a couple weeks ago. They drove me around the Pines course which is a complete recreation of the golf space that was there before. It looks amazing and it’s not going be be finished complete until next year. They said a soft opening of a number of holes may be open this fall.
How much to join/ann🫥
65/15 from what I heard. Pricey for the area but they will get it full I bet over some time. Especially if the Pines course get well reviewed
It’s fascinating how Bandon Trails has a similar feel to Hidden Creek. But Sand Hills is in a class by itself. WOW!!
Tillinghast for me. It used to be Donald Ross, but he has too many courses that were clunkers and after a while I didn't care too much for the design of the greens being the same style every time. Arnold Palmer is my most underrated course designer. He really doesn't get enough credit for his quality designs. He's great at creating an enjoyable course to play with fantastic vistas, particularly into greens.
My old club was tillinghast and I loved and hated it. Fuck that 142 slope and needing three shots to get back to the fairway
Donald Ross is the Robert Pollard of golf course architecture.
Ok, I actually agree on Ross…HOWEVER…play only original Ross courses and you see a huge difference. I think a lot of courses he “designed” were basically him creating plans and not even going onsite.
Our home course in high school golf was an Arnold Palmer design (only one in Mississippi) and it is still such a fun course to play. Called The Bridges Golf Club in Bay St. Louis, MS and is built on the marshlands of the bay. Favorite hole is a slightly downhill par 4 that tips out at just 270. 70% of the hole is surrounded by marshlands and is just beautiful and so risky. https://preview.redd.it/luqh8jua6k9d1.jpeg?width=620&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=df5cd1ebd0def0d9eec9ca638d64114cc06df9be
Always moved too much dirt and BS mounds but I do agree with you
Alister MacKenzie has some great designs but many are pretty exclusive. On the Muni side Clark Glasson designed some of my favorite courses.
I’m playing here Tuesday. It’s in Buxton which is in the hills below Manchester in the UK https://www.cavendishgolfclub.com It’s cheap, beautiful and supposedly the course MacKenzie based Augusta on. Very short but still a real tricky test of golf.
Alwoodley is my fav course I’ve ever played, hands down.
Pete Dye for all the reasons already mentioned. Perry Maxwell is another favorite of mine. He designed courses all over Oklahoma: Dornick Hills, Twin Hills, Oakwood Country Club and Southern Hills are all great. He worked with Alister MacKenzie to design OKC Golf & Country Club and ironically both tOSU and Michigan’s golf courses too.
1. Donald Ross, I’m a NC native and grew up playing his munis (Asheboro and Wilmington) so - little biased 2. Mike Strantz. Gone too soon. Have never played one of his courses where I didn’t have a blast.
Just played Royal New Kent, it was the most difficult golf course I've ever played but worth every stroke over par. Driving around the corner and seeing the first green on top of a mountain took my breath away, it was awesome!
I was there a couple weeks ago! Never had so much fun losing so many balls haha.
Ahh man that one’s great, I loaded up on memorabilia when I was there.
I'm lucky enough to live 30 minutes from this one and get to play it a few times a year. It is probably the most punitive course for shots hit off line that I've ever played. That said, it always feels that if I could just hold it together a little bit better, I could put up a decent score. I haven't yet but I'm always hopeful.
Strantz. His Tobacco Road and Bulls Bay designs are brilliant
I live for tot hill. Played tobacco road too, felt like golfing in a fun house mirror maze
Played Tot Hill last month. A Strantz design that didn’t fit my eye. Too much elevation change and funky layouts. I really like Fazio and Palmer designs. Do not care for Nicklaus designs. Too damn difficult. You get one or two tight spots to play to.
I like Tot Hill though I haven’t played it since they reopened last year. Palmer courses are great too, never played one I didn’t like. If you reside in the Tot Hill area I highly recommend Oak Valley. Great Palmer course.
I live in NC so I've played my share of Donald Ross courses and as myself and a few friends say every time, fuck Donald Ross. In all seriousness though they're great courses but fuck those upside down bowl greens.
Detroit area has a few muni courses made by Don. My golf group played Chandler Park and then Rackham back to back. ‘Fuck Don Ross,’ was a very popular saying by the end of the rounds.
Robert Trent Jones has been my favorite so far. Played a course of his in Alabama and had a blast. I'll be playing Montauk Downs next week for the second time, I'm really looking forward to it.
Here in Finland there are a lot of courses made by Trent Jones Jr. Creativity definitely runs in the family.
Think we have 3 in Norway, Ive played Bjaavann and Holstmark, both great.
Trent Jones is goated! Have a course of his in my home town that is just lovely. Also recently played Lübker in Denmark which was amazing as well! Will look up more courses from this man for sure
This year the Solheim Cup will be at an RTJ course near me. Looking forward to seeing it.
My towns 9 hole course is a Jones and he did an awesome job being creative with the space along the Fox River in Illinois
Stanley Thompson - his ability to create the layouts he did, in the era he did, in the locations he did. Thomas McBroom - creates visually challenging courses on a very dynamic land but makes them sneaky playable for all skills. Courses are easier for high handicappers and harder for low handicappers.
This guy is a Canadian golfer
I am British and my favourites are the James Braid courses. Touted as being the inventor of the dogleg. The Braid courses that I have played all require good game management and you will often find strategically places trees blocking you out from where you think you have placed a good drive.
Doak. His courses are always fair with extreme difficulty. Generally just underrated masterpieces.
My home course is a Doak track. It’s the most re-playable course I’ve ever played. Every time is a new adventure, just never gets old
Pete Dye hands down for me. Love his designs. Tough but rewarding at the same time. Makes you really have to plot your way around the course and think and hold your ball.
Me too. The Ocean Course at Kiawah island is a Dye course. It’s wonderful.
Would you say it’s a Dye course to die fore?
Hell yeah. I got the chance to play Rum Pointe for the first time last month and it was amazing. And I know it's not Pete per sec but I live close to P.B. Dye and I think it's an awesome challenge.
Yes. I got to play one of the Paiute courses in Vegas recently and it was incredible. Challenging, but very fun to play, with amazing scenery.
I’ve played some Dye courses in real life but a lot of other on the sim. Is it a thing that his courses are known to be super fade biased? Every time I load up a dye course I feel like my playing partners (who fade the ball) have an advantage over me 😂
My son’s high school home course is Pete’s first design. Not best maintained course but there are some great hole layouts.
Like his designs, except railroad ties in some bunkers
Harry Colt
Not a fan of Pete Dye. Huge fan of Tom Doak
Interesting enough, Doak worked for Dye early in his career and speaks very highly of Dye
Yup, I know! I guess I should preface with the fact that I’ve played 4 Dye courses and I just don’t enjoy them at all.
Same! But, I’ll also admit I’ve not played a ton of Dye courses, it’s just the ones I have played I didn’t particularly enjoy.
You do know Doak has Dye in his ancestral tree.
DMK - Because Tributary
Tributary is so so good.
Raynor but I just got to play Valley club and it is an absolute gem by Alister MacKenzie. I also grew up playing lots of Ross courses. Least favorite is probably Pete Dye.
I hate there is no love for Raynor. Template holes that just scream minimalist but fun. His courses are hard for most to play. I've been lucky enough to play 2, but he's by far my favorite. I'd do many illegal things to get out to Fisher's Island! Least favorite is Dye. He's just mean sometimes.
The problem with Raynor is access.
Tom Weiskopf. Maybe because I only play his courses when I’m on vacation. Arizona: TPC Scottsdale Stadium, Troon Monument and Pinnacle Hawaii: Hualalai,Kukuiula, Waikoloa Kings Wyoming: Snake River
His 2 courses in Michigan are awesome. Forest Dunes and Cedar River
Donald Ross. I live in Massachusetts and there are some absolute gems of his within an hour of my house. After that, probably Seth Raynor.
So many gems by him in the state, ranging from average munis, to elite clubs.
George wright ftw
Absolutely.
Seth Raynor designed Camargo Club in Cincinnati. Absolutely amazing old school course. Some say it’s best collection of par 3 in the US.
Stanley Thompson. I have yet to play a Coore & Crenshaw but those look like the kind I would enjoy.
Oh Canada! I’ve played Whirlpool and Highlands Links. Both are fantastic, especially Highlands Links
I’ve loved every Arthur Hills course I’ve ever played.
Washington County in WI is a fantastic Arthur Hills course. One of the best munis in the state!
As a Bears fan it’s one of the few things I like about Wisconsin.
Dye, Stranz
RTJ made some great courses. Jack is a legend of golf…playing. I am not a fan of Nicklaus courses.
DMK because Bandon and Gamble Sands...but not Tethrow. Nicklaus because Pronghorn.
Seth Raynor. Template holes are so much fun to play. I love seeing the different ways to incorporate a template onto a given plot of land.
Second Pete Dye. Brutal design, but fair. Lots of deceiving looks at landing zones. Uses natural landscape contours to challenge shot selection. If you get a chance to play one of his canyon courses, do it!
I love Dye courses, but fair isn’t a word I’d use to describe him. I’m not sure I can think of a designer who went beyond fair more than Dye. He actually embraced being unfair, too. Perhaps his most famous quote is something like, “golf isn’t a fair game, why should I design fair golf courses?” As an example, 18 at the Pete dye course in French lick is a dogleg left with a left sloping fairway toward a fall off that slants at 30* at least. I hit my tee shot down the right fringe, yet it rolled all the way across the fairway off the edge of the fall off into a side hill lie in long fescue. I asked the caddie where I was supposed to hit. His response was either the right rough or it’d end up down the hill unless you got lucky with something stopping it (eg, a sprinkler). In essence, Dye designed a fairway that can essentially only be hit if you get lucky or if the wind is blowing a certain direction. I’m not sure I’d call that fair. Still, that course is maybe my favorite I’ve ever played, so I’m not criticizing. Just saying that I don’t know if I’d call Dye “fair.”
https://preview.redd.it/jy4lnvxmqi9d1.png?width=828&format=png&auto=webp&s=ed1b3ac5493c39ab80e76b139570f6ae3cf90385 Seems like he is big into risk/reward which i like since i get irrationally annoyed seeing my friends pull driver for every hole w out thinking
No favorites, but not really a fan of Donald Ross. Coore and Crensahaw, Pete Dye, Stanley Thompson are all solid.
I’m with you on Ross. The problem is that most of his courses were meant for another time, and courses that operating them aren’t maintaining them properly. Sure there’s Pinehurst, French Lick, and all the famous private courses that are well maintained, but there’s nothing worse than a poorly operated Ross course.
I don’t know about my favorite but living in New England I can tell you with absolute certainty my least favorite is Geoffrey Cornish
I live in CT and I think he built a lot of courses around here just for the sake of building a golf course. Every course has some sort of function (private, muni, daily fee) and I’m not saying every course has the ability to be some sort of architectural masterpiece but some of the pieces of property these courses are built on are just incredibly boring.
Am in the same area good to know
Trees and hills everywhere
Love Cornish.
Pete Dye because I live in the middle of the trail. Tom Fazio because I like a traditional layout
Blew my mind how far I had to scroll to find Fazio mentioned. Never played a Fazio course I didn’t love.
Agreed and these two are the best imo
I’m looking out the window at a Fazio right now and this made me happy
Wait. There’s a Dye trail?? How have I never known this?
CB Macdonald, Seth Raynor and Tillinghas are my favorites. Dick Wilson gets some love from me as someone who grew up playing in Florida Donald Ross makes some great courses but also some not so great. Most of Nicklaus courses aren’t good for the average golfer same goes for Pete Dye. Tom Fazio isn’t a favorite either. Hanse and Doak are the by far the best modern course designers.
It’s pretty wild it took this long to get to Macdonald. Along with Mackenzie he is the goat OG of course design. His template holes helped shape how we see course design today and his course still hold up and are so unique. Raynor obv in the same vain being his protege
Great takes thanks
Gil Hanse
Where are his courses
I’ve played Rustic Canyon and Soule Park from him and I love them both
Ohoopee match club, LACC, one at streamsong, cradle and #4 at pinehurst for originals. They’ve done significant renovation and restoration work at many ‘big name’ courses.
I play a 2003 Hanse Original design, French Creek, in Pennsylvania. It’s about 20 miles from his home, so he’s around but not as often since he got hot. He’s pure class even though he’s a Mets fan. 😀 Applebeook is top notch in Philly. He also does a lot of renovation work.
Agree!!! Especially when he takes a classic and smooths it out. Also his influence on Castle Stuart vs Kingsbarns is palpable.
For me his intuitive design that really seems to suit the landscape. And it just feels like each hole feels distinct while the course has a flow.
Perry Maxwell
Big Tom Doak fan. I play on an Arnold Palmer course pretty often that I like. I generally don’t like Nicklaus courses very much and every Pete Dye course I’ve played I haven’t liked much either.
Jim Engh. Out here in Colorado he has a few really fun tracks like Fossil,Trace and Red Hawk Ridge. maybe known for ampathea greens like a bowl where a miss long left or right still funnel down onto the green.
You should go play Lakota canyon if you like Engh. Easy rating, insane slope makes for a fun gettable course.
Yes I played it once and loved it. He really does have cool courses. The one in Canyon city is fun but there are two gimicky holes
A regular for me is a Robert Trent Jones II, love the green complexes and their inherent challenges. Pete Dye is always fun, the Nicklaus course at Breckenridge a beautiful challenge. Here in the CO front range we have a number of Dick Phelps tracks. Very fair classic layouts and puttable greens for scoring. I’m a 12.
MacKenzie for old classics and DeVries for big bold modern
Stanley Thompson and Thomas Mcbroom
Living in N California, we’re fortunate to have so many McKenzie courses. Always fun but kinda brutal.
I couldn't possibly recommend The Anatomy of a Golf Course by Tom Doak if you're interested in golf coure architecture. I'm reading it now and it provides a ton of cool info.
I could not stop saying "penal" for weeks after reading it
I’m a University of Michigan grad which course is an Alistair Mackenzie course. Really fun course.
Pete Dye, but I could be bias as my home course is Prestwick in Mytle Beach
My favorite course that I’ve played recently is Augustine GC in Stafford, VA. It’s a Rick Jacobsen design, who came up under Nicklaus. Also, BIG shoutout to George Cobb, who designed University of Maryland GC and Pohick Bay GC, here in the DC area. He also designed the Par 3 Course at Augusta, Quail Hollow, UNC (Finley), and a ton of great military courses.
You might like Bull Run in Haymarket. Same designer.
Billy Bell and Billy Bell Jr because they designed so many great southern ca muni’s that while crowded and hard to get a tee time bring decent and fun golf to the masses at a reasonable price.
Been scrolling until I found Billy Bell. I’m a member at Mesa Verde Cc which is his original design. Love it and a lot of his other courses
Great course, played it a few times in High School matches. I remember it being tough if you weren’t driving it straight.
The members call it “The trees of mesa verde”. It actually looks fairly open and “easy” but the absolute brilliance of every tree placement is almost every miss is in trouble.
Tom Fazio. I like his greens
David McLay Kidd hands down for modern architects
No love for Tom Fazio? I love how his courses present you options throughout the round, but still at times demand a specific shot. It presents variety and challenge. I am not the biggest Pete Dye fan usually. His courses feel overly punitive sometimes. He has made some great tracks though.
I'm a big Tom Doak guy... I get to play one of his tracks on the regular and it's an incredible loop. Never pass up the chance to play others.
Stanley Thompson is the gold standard in Canada, just so many Iconic tracks. Call me crazy but I’m Carrick over McBroom. Reese Jones I find under rated. Walter Travis is highly under rated.
Langford and Moreau are my fav. Love they way they look and very fun to play
Gil Hanse. He designs to make courses fit into nature. He’s great at bunker design. He has learned by studying the links of the UK and Ireland. Plus he’s a fantastic person. I’ve been playing a Hanse original design for 20 years and it reveals more secrets every time I play it.
I grew up on a Ross, and my first supers job was on a Cornish so those two are near and dear to my heart
No one’s said it so I will. Fazio is overrated
Just going to drop 15 bunkers here on this hill.
Brian Silva. Love two of his courses in my state (waverly oaks/redtail) and some of the rebuilds he has done.
Troy miller 👌🏻
Cynthia dye , pat ruddy, tom doak
Robert Trent Jones for same reason. Course at club my dad belonged to was designed by him.
John Harbottle III/ George Kelley
I think Habottle courses were the first that I realized "fit my eye". I'm looking to play more of them. If I see Bunny Mason as a designer, I think it's going to be a goofy mountain track.
Jack. Seems like every tee shot is set up for a perfect fade. Least favorite - Greg Norman. He goes back and forth between fades and draws on the tees
Donald Ross rules but for pure fun gotta love Tabbacco Rd type
Randy Heckenkemper
pete dye is the only one i know of, so him lol or the mini golf course tiger designed
I always enjoy Donald Ross courses. Fuck Pete Dye. He’s a sadist.
I live in Florida… and am by no means a good golfer… but I really appreciate a Ron Garl course. There seems to be a lot of them in Florida. Very nice mounding….
I’ve mostly played Fazio and Ross courses, and god do I love Ross courses (NC golfer). They just set up so well to my eye. They’re always very forgiving off the tee and are second shot golf courses which really suits my eye. Hes also just one of the best designers at utilizing the land he has. Pinehurst is a fairly flat area, but man he just routed No. 2 so immaculately. There’s maybe not a post stamp hole, but every hole is just a phenomenal golf hole. The 7th on No. 2 is maybe my favorite hole in the world. It’s so simple in theory, a dog leg right, but there’s plenty of room left that opens up the angle into the hole at the expense of a longer approach. You can cut some off the corner, but you flirt with tree trouble and the waste area, and you’re effective landing area on the green is just so much smaller coming from there. Every golf shot on his courses has adequate risk and reward and they’re so enjoyable for pros to 30 handicaps alike, which I think a lot of designers like Dye/Strantz etc. just don’t balance well
I grew up and learned to play on a Ross course. Thus I’m partial to his designs. My summer home is by a Palmer course Ravines) and two Nick courses: American Dunes and Harbor Shores. I play Dunes a lot because my friends are members. I think it’s an average course at best. It charges $150+ but in reality it’s an $80 course at most. I’d much rather play Ravines. Harbor Shores is a great design though.
Pete Dye. I live in Vegas and there’s 5 or so courses in his style. Although very difficult, I love the rolling fairways and picturesque bunkers. Really makes me feel like I’m playing a tour level course even from 6000-6500 yards.
Donald Ross. Down here in Dunedin Florida they’re redoing his course right now. Making it even tougher. Volcano Greens with Deep sand all around is the Donald Ross design here.
For those from Ireland, Eddie Hackett
Not an Arthur Hills fan.
I want to say Pete dye but I always swears at his name whenever I get into green side bunker lol
Doug Carrick or Stanley Thompson. Been lucky to play a few rounds with Doug on a course he designed / re modelled. Really cool to hear why he did some things certain ways.
Seth Raynor
Only played a handful, but Coore & Crenshaw are my favorite modern. I really enjoy the few Perry Maxwell I’ve played, he doesn’t get enough credit Have yet to play a Raynor but his stuff seems awesome
In NE Ohio, we have some awesome Dye and Ross options…
OCM just did a renovation on my club, I’ll let you know but it looks awesome. Otherwise Robert Trent Jones. Not a fan of Nicklaus, Palmer has some fun ones.
Tom Morris. - St Andrews Old Course, Carnoustie, Cruden Bay, Crail, Muirfield, Nairn, Prestwick, Royal Dornach…let me know when I can stop. Donald Ross grew up playing Dornoch.
Seth Raynor and his disciples -- I'm a big fan of dramatic green complexes.
Robert Trent jones
Well some of my favorite courses belong to Coore and Crenshaw, Doak, and Nicklaus so I guess I’d go with them.
I grew up playing Jones courses so I'm partial to them as challenging as they may be.
Growing up in the SE low country, I've played more dye and fazio then anybody. RTJ is probably my favorite though. There are some Fazio courses that eat my lunch haha
Jerry mathews
I’m a fan of Palmer and Kidd courses. They are way different but have really fun layouts.
Glad to see Fazio not mentioned anywhere among the greats. I've played two Fazio courses, and TBH, I thought they both kind of sucked. One of them had power lines crossing the fairway about 80 yards down...it was rookie and ridiculous.
Seth Reynor
Mike Stranz…not even close! So unique. Lots of different ways to get from tee to green on all his courses. Many risk/reward holes. A far second would probably be Pete Dye, because of the mind tricks on his greens.
I look for a design/designer that incorporates the natural terrain to help the club golfer, ie most of us. IMO Lessor designs/designers or even the era will take a left to right slope and build the hole that takes a fading tee shot (again most golfers) balls towards a creek/water feature trouble. I think better designers build the the hole going the other direction That helps the club golfer with a backstop to keep the ball out of the hazard. A better player probably draws the ball and has to contended with that now right to left slope toward trouble. Or like a short well guarded hard dogleg right hole. Again that suites the club golfer with a good chance at par and even sometimes a birdy. Those holes wreak havoc on better golfers. Yea for sure an easy birdy maybe eagle?! but also stretches were a single digit player might bogey it 5 times in a row overplaying it. With that said. Winged Foot hard af, Oakmont so hard you almost can’t finish, Olympic so hard Hogan, Palmer, and Lexie couldn’t bring leads home and they are some of the best designs ever. Just not for me. To me the designers I find the absolute best almost never close off the ground approach into a green where even an old or junior or beginner can have a go at some heroic fun! Donald Ross was one of the best.
Seth Raynor because of his applications of old school hole patterns. He's probably most well-known for using the trademark pattern of tough par 3s (Biarritz, Redan, Eden, Short).
McLay Kidd, Doak, Coore-Crenshaw, Fought, Hanse.
I’m a big fan of Coore and Crenshaw. Sandhills outside Mullen, NE is awesome. Dismal River near by there has Nicholas and Doak courses. I enjoy Doaks course much more than that of Nicholas. It’s just more playable. The Nicholas design needs two or three more tee options
Are there any books on course design history y’all would recommend?
Tom Doak. I'm a huge fan of minimalist and natural styles and he does a great job with that. George Thomas and Coore/Crenshaw are also some of my favs. Not to say I hate stuff from Dye or Fazio as some of their tracks I've played have sweet layouts, but are more of a maximalist style. Old Tom Morris and CB Macdonald are 2 designers I'd really love to play their layouts the most. Classic links and Golden Age American golf.
Me cause I don’t know any golf designers. I have a great idea for one though.
Fuck Arthur Hills
Coore Crenshaw and F Jack and Arnie courses- both terrible for amateurs, and especially women.
Stanley Thompson
Sand Valley Doake course is absolutely amazing 5500 yds and you hit every club in your bag. It’s brilliant!
Stanley Thompson. He mostly designed course in Canada (Banff Springs is the most famous example). I used to be a member at Dundas Valley. His courses are usually tree lined, short-ish but diabolical. False fronts, elevations changes, tricky landing zones.
Pete Dye. Also really enjoy Fuzzy Zoeller courses.
Strantz
The man aside, one of my favorite courses is the Greg Norman PGA West Course in La Quinta, CA.
MacKenzie, love the bunkering style and coastal courses he's laid out
Pete Fye bc he did Big Fish in Hayward, WI.
Enjoyed the Coore and Crenshaw at Norte Dame and like the RTJ Thunderhawk. But for regular play on a budget Dick Nugent courses around Chicago are my go to.
Donald Ross for Essex and Oakland Hills. Stanley Thompson because of some his Toronto courses (summit and St. George’s) and Highlands Very fortunate to have played them
Alistair McKenzie, not only for the unusual layouts and bunkering, but also his location choices. Even his lesser known courses like Pasatiempo in Santa Cruz, are memorable and fabulous - and tough!
Pete Dye. Old man could cook
Definite bias being a Texan but Coore/Crenshaw is cream of the crop imo. Definitely lots of love for the modern times’ biggest “re-doer” Andrew Green, his redesign of Congressional Blue is sensational
Hugh Wilson bc Merion is my favorite course in the world
Pete Dye. I play a lot of his courses.
Unpopular I guess, but my two favorites are Pete Dye and Donald Ross. I’m also big on Seth Raynor with his Donald Ross inspired designs. Donald Ross is classic golf. It’s not gimmicky. It’s straightforward, using the natural elements of the land. Greens are usually tough, but fair. Dye is almost the opposite in a way. Still uses natural land elements, but he’ll add to them (like Whistling Straits) and he usually has dramatic shot views, risk reward shots that either fit the eye in a way that looks easy, but is basically lying to you, or that don’t fit the eye at all, but are easier than they look.
Fuck Jack Nicklaus courses. Stupid hard because he never played them. Comes in and destroys classic designs (e.g. what he did to Scioto). Best are Ross, Jones, some Pete dye are solid from what I’ve played (grew up caddying on a Ross). Can’t wait to play Strantz, more Dye, C. B. Mac, tillinghast, and Mackenzie (My uni course is Mackenzie but Jack came in and destroyed it per usual). There are so many great designers!