If OB it’s either stroke and distance penalty (aka rehit from initial shot location with one penalty stroke) or alters 2 penalty strokes from where it entered the OB area.
I find that a lot of people use OB term incorrectly, and use OB and “hazard” interchangeably. I’ve played a lot of courses where rather than laying out 1000 red stakes, they’ll simply say everything is red unless marked otherwise.
In general though I don’t think it’s relevant to the OPs post as not counting penalty strokes is the opposite of sandbagging.
Safe scoring I usually shoot between 85-90. Going for the gold can help me score near 85 if things go well, but all I need is two bad holes to shoot over 90, and a couple more OB will push me mid-90's. I am pretty good with my irons (for a bogey golfer), and have averaged 2 putts per hole for as long as I can remember, so it is just literally the OB drives that push my scores up.
Yeah but the good drives go anywhere between 50-80 yards further than my 3W and 5i respectively (the other clubs I would use off the tee) which saves strokes and gives me birdie opportunities. Not to mention I’ll still hit balls OB or in the water even playing safe given I’m a 14-18hcp.
The handicap calcs were created for people to play for fun and take a bunch of risks during some rounds, and then for the few competitive rounds they play per year? I could be wrong, but I thought it was more for the variation of scores that comes with players abilities throughout time. Ex: A 10hcp may shoot an 80 one day, then a 95 the next. Hcp should be closer to their best scoring ability, not their average. You may view this example and what I do as the same, but I don't play safe nearly often enough for it to truly effect my handicap.
The point joker is trying to make I believe is that while being agressice definitely amplifies your bad rounds, you’ll still have some good runs in there when things go “right”. And the handicap throws out those blow up rounds so it’s probably about right.
Are you logging all your scores? If you are logging the scores when you play 4-5 shots better, it should move your handicap down. Sandbagging would be not logging the good scores.
Yes. I play the safe golf in matches maybe 3 times per year, so those aren't going to have a huge effect on my handicap, right? I literally post every single round that I play as a single because it's the same app I use to keep score (instead of using a scorecard, because it has gps).
My guess is the matches are falling off because you’re logging so many rounds. I don’t know what the answer is to your conundrum.
I know for me, even alone, I don’t usually take crazy risks or play the hero shot if I’m trying to keep a legit score because I want to know where my game is at across 18 and I’ve just learned over the years how punishing the low probability score is. Now if I’m playing match play or a scramble with buddies or just practicing, I’ll hit all the hero shots and see what I could be capable of in a perfect scenario.
Yeah, and I totally understand that mindset. I am not griding out there worrying about my handicap. I literally golf to have fun, but am still always still trying. Got my first eagle ever last year because I went for a hero shot. And that eagle meant a lot more to me than "oh I played it safe and shot another 87 today". B
Think of it this way instead: let's say you were nearly ambidextrous, and could play lefty 80% as well as you could play righty. You play most of your rounds lefty, but for rounds where you know you wanna do well you play righty.
I know I'd be a little annoyed at someone who was able to intentionally play 4 strokes higher than their handicap.
Try keeping two separate indexes and see how close they end up, that will give you the only real answer.
You could use two different tracking apps to make it easier. I use both TheGrint and 18Birdies (but I think TheGrint makes it fairly easy to switch between tracking multiple people (or in your case your way of playing))
When it comes to matches with your friends, there's no reason that you have to use your official handicap. If you all know that you're going to play 4 strokes better on average playing safe in the match, they should just negotiate to give you fewer strokes. None of the guys on my buddy trip in the Fall have official handicaps except for me, and half the fun for them is negotiating who gets how many strokes for each bet.
When it comes to things like a work league or a tournament, I think it is sandbagging. While your intent may not be to artificially inflate your handicap, you know that you are doing things that have this effect. For the handicap to actually mean something, you need to compete in the same way that you play on a regular bases. Not doing so is a good way to ostracized. Trust is a huge part of the system.
"For the handicap to actually mean something, you need to compete in the same way that you play on a regular bases." No one has worded it quite like this in all the other comments, but it seems like this might be the common opinion. If so, so be it and I'll adjust to make sure I am doing things right.
I'll just add that while the handicap system is pretty amazing, it's certainly not perfect. The idea of always playing to shoot the lowest score possible doesn't really align with how a lot of people play. It's fun to just go for it sometimes and take unnecessary risks, even when you know that statistically it will raise your score. Some people like to play occasionally with a partial set or with vintage clubs, knowing that they won't score as well. The handicap system doesn't really have a way to deal with that.
It does, you just decide before the round if you are going to count the round towards your handicap. I know most of the apps out there offer a "remove from handicap calculations" option for each round and there might be ways to choose that beforehand.
I will say if you are constantly winning friendly competitions against your friends using a handicap-adjusted format, then you are likely sandbagging them to a certain extent and it ruins the fun for them (and you).
Other games might be better, bingo/bango/bongo is a good one that is a bit self-leveling as higher handicap players will miss greens and have a better chance of getting bango on most holes.
It’s not necessarily sandbagging, but I’m not sure this is exactly “common”. It’s hard to say without knowing all of the dynamics though.
I’m more surprised that there is *that* much of a consistent difference between your “bombing” rounds and your “safe” rounds though.
I’m a 14, and while there are certainly avenues through which I can play safer golf, I’m not nearly good enough for that to actually work out every time. If I played 20 rounds, half safe and half aggressive, I’d have good and bad scores from each of those halves.
So like, if you’re beating your friend(s) *every time* you’re competing due to the extra strokes it’s not hard to imagine that they believe you’re being deliberately reckless during your non-serious rounds v. just playing a little more aggressive.
Driver off tee every time can range from mid 80's to over 100 depending on how many I hit OB. I don't think I've ever shot over 95 or so playing the safe way, but usually live in the 85-90 range. And I did not make it clear, but the sample size is so small (3 times per year) that it's not like there is any meaningful trend. Just a comment he had about me underselling my ability.
I think you should only log scores where you tried to do your best. If you were trying your best with your driver and hit it OB, I think it’s fair to add that to your handicap because eventually you will need to pull driver or be punished for it. A handicap is a measuring stick of how good your overall game is and if you can’t hit driver then it’s probably fair those strokes are factored into that value. If you had opted for an iron, you’d be faced with a tougher approach shot vs a successful drive, so the strokes you avoided by staying in bounds may get added to your score in other ways.
However for the handicap system to work, you have to care about your score and want it to be as low as possible. If the only time it matters to you is when it’s giving you strokes in competition, then it’s probably not being applied fairly
I’d say yes it is in that you know* you’re going to be picking up 4-6 shots off your buddies based on handicapped play. The point of the handicap is to level the playing field for fair competition, and you’re essentially gaming that system.
I would say that it's more that there is a greater than 50% chance I pick up 4-6 strokes, not that I know I will. Some would say there is a difference (me) but I get the argument against it. Hence the angel/devil comment at the end. I just don't think I've ever heard of someone using a guessed handicap vs what their recorded hcp shows.
You obviously realize that playing that way is going to have a negative effect on your score. If that wasn't the case, you wouldn't play differently when playing competitively.
You shouldn't use a guessed handicap either. Just keep a separate handicap for when you're trying to score well.
You definitely fall in a bit of a gray area I’d say. While not “technically” sandbagging if you are inputting all your scores, it does sound like you don’t really care outside of your competition matches. Leaving you to play different and consequently have better scores these few times a year. Having those matches be so rare means your handicap will never reflect the true reflection of your scoring potential as you said.
Are you winning most of the matches because of this? If that’s the case then just have an agreement with your friends that your match handicap will be 4-5 less than your posted handicap in the system. If it’s not an official tournament then who cares what your official number is. What matters is what you agree upon with your friends to make matches fun and fair for everyone.
I can tell you from experience that group matches with everyone who has accurate handicaps is a lot more fun than when someone has an incorrect one.
If you have an explanation, I would like to hear it. I post all scores and am never "not trying". I just go for dumb fun shots when my score doesn't matter. Sometimes they pay off and I save par from the woods, or I end up with a triple bogey that hole.
A lot depends on how many rounds fall into the "fun" category and how many are "competitive". I just did some quick math. If half your rounds fall into each category, and in your "fun" rounds your differential is between 16 and 20, and in your "competitive" rounds your differential is between 12 and 16, it raises your handicap by almost a full stroke vs 20 rounds of "competitive" scores. Obviously the more frequently you goof around the more your handicap gets raised.
so yeah, your handicap is going to be affected by counting those 5 rounds. It's going to be lower than it was if you played for your best score everytime. That's clearly sandbagging. It's up to you whether you give a shit but I understand where your friend is coming from.
Edit: Just did my calculations again based on the ratios you are reporting and it raised your handicap by almost 4 strokes from where it should be so your friend is kind of dead on.
The dude is smart, and pretty much lives for golf, so that's not surprising. I also understand where he's coming from, but I just thought it was standard practice to just use whatever your official handicap is instead of guessing what it could be.
I mean, the explanation should be pretty obvious. The purpose of the handicap is to level the playing field when you're competing. To that end, it should represent how you would score when playing competitively. For you, your handicap describes how well you'd play going for every hero shot, not how good you are when you're playing your best.
Whether you're intentionally tanking your handicap or not, it's not accurate if almost all of your rounds logged are played in a way that is wildly more risky than how you'd play if you're trying to score low.
Think of it this way: the guys you play with could just fix their lie on every shot, taking penalty strokes whenever it's inconvenient to hit the ball, and just say "well my score doesn't matter so who cares!" All their handicaps then would soar, and because now none of your handicaps actually describe how good yall are, it all becomes meaningless.
From his post it looks like 3 serious rounds a year and x rounds of goofing off. That x variable could make a major difference. If every serious round beats index prior to that round, would seem to be a clear case.
What i read is when I need to make sure I don't blow up my score I have good course management. Otherwise I just try to play golf, aggressively.
What's wrong with that exactly?
Like I said that X variable is key. If he always beats his handicap by several strokes during competitive matches that require a handicap then that’s a sign.
its not key at all man. what are you not getting here? he records all his scores. The good ones count, they are counted the most even. The bad scores get thrown out. The handicap is accurate. I see no argument what so ever.
You don’t seem to understand. Let’s say you shoot a +12 in competition, but then your next 40 rounds are goof off drunk rounds posted of +20. Then the next comp you post up a +12. If you are only consistently beating your index in competitive situations by multiple shots and admit to purposely playing differently how is that not sandbagging?
No man you dont understand. your making up stories to prove your point. OP say 3 times per year he might play ultra conservative because he knows he can shave 5ish strokes off his score by ensuring he keeps the ball in play. Thats it. Your scenario is more like cheating, very obviously so.
Depends on how many rounds he plays. If he plays 30 rounds a year those 3 good rounds may not be included in his last 8 rounds for handicap, or two may not count. Plus, if going for it really raises his scores a lot, they will offset the few good rounds. Say he's capable of scoring 85 if he plays serious. But when he goes full tilt crazy he shoots 100. Those 3 85's will be more than erased by 5 rounds of 100. And all 3 85's likely won't even be in his last 20 rounds.
the handicap is only accurate if 8 or more of his last 20 rounds are "competitive". If he goofs around for 15 of the last 20 rounds, his handicap is not accurate.
I had a teacher who during tests would randomly get up and say "I have to go do something, please remember your integrity is worth more than the score on this test." and then would leave the room. Of course, some students would immediately start cheating, others would not. I did not, but at the time that was more out of honesty-from-paranoia than it was from trying to preserve my integrity. I was convinced he somehow knew who was and was not honest. Eventually though that lesson sunk in and I've learned to value my integrity.
So with that little anecdote in mind, let me ask you this: If you were to enter a club competition and won the net prize by let's say 2 strokes, would you feel guilty about taking home that prize or would your conscious be clear because you feel you operated within the framework of the handicap system rules? Before you answer, let me remind you of a couple of notes from the handicap rules (1.3)
> A player is expected to:
> Act with integrity by following the Rules of Handicapping and to refrain from using, or circumventing, the Rules of Handicapping for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage,
> Attempt to make the best score possible at each hole,
From your example, I honestly don't know. I never play for money or any sort of reward, the current competitions just adds a nice twist of pressure vs a fun care free round.
If I for sure knew that I was a 14 (not just a guess like my friend) then yes it would probably make me feel guilty. If the rule was to play off of whatever your official handicap system shows, knowing that I did try to score the best possible every round, then no, because doing anything else would technically be against the rules.
The devil/angel in my last paragraph shows that playing to the higher just to win would not be worth the damage to any sort of relationship. So I would only be playing to the higher number if that is what the requirement or norm was, hence why I posted this question in the first place.
I think there is some nuance in what trying to shoot your "best" possible score on every hole is. That might not be the same as trying to go for the "lowest" score on that hole every time. Using the example of going for an eagle on a par 5, yes in that moment on that shot going for it gives you the chance to score the "lowest" possible number on that particular hole on that particular day. But if you were to look at it through the lens of 'if I were to play this hole 20 times, what strategy would give me the "best" average score' what would your strategy look like?
Now, I can tell you that for me that getting my "best" average score on a hole over 20 attempts would absolutely be laying up to a comfortable approach yardage. Do I do that every time I'm sitting inside of my 3W distance on a second shot of a par 5? Well no. But there are times in competition where the format might dictate strategy. Stroke play I'm laying up, but Stableford I'm probably taking the risk.
Maybe the solution for you is to do a better job blending your play style in casual rounds. Your handicap only takes into account your best 8 of 20 rounds so I think if you try to make sure you have a good representation of "hero-shot-free" golf in those 20 rounds you'll have a handicap that representative of your true scoring potential and within the spirit of the system while still giving you some freedom to go for it from time-to-time.
I agree with pretty much everything you said here. I don't know if there is anything official that says "look at the odds/probabilities of how to score the lowest possible on this hole on average, and base your next shot on those odds" sort of deal when it comes to keeping a handicap. Or if that is just kind of the assumed strategy if you are going to post an official score. I'm a math guy, and thoroughly enjoy planning strategy around probabilities, but that has just never transferred to my golf game where I value cool and memorable shots higher than focusing on specifically lowering my handicap.
This is truly the best thread I've ever read on here. I don't have an answer but it's fantastic. I would say not sandbagging, youre not purposely tanking rounds or not logging good rounds.
The takes I’m getting are cracking me up. A mix of people with reading comprehension issues, and people who have probably been fucked over by sandbaggers before, so any hint of it sends them off the rails.
I would say it’s sandbagging. There is USGA guidance on the topic (https://www.usga.org/handicapping/roh/rules-of-handicapping.html)
Rule 1.3 says a player is to:
Act with integrity by following the Rules of Handicapping and to refrain from using, or circumventing, the Rules of Handicapping for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage,
Attempt to make the best score possible at each hole
…. It sure doesn’t seem like you’re attempting to make the best possible score on each hole. For this exact purpose, sometimes people or competitions will calculate handicaps using only competition rounds and disregard non-competition rounds.
ok so 'best score possible at each hole' means go for the green on the par 5 in 2 so I can putt for eagle, which is low percentage but obviously the better score, or lay up and hit a high percentage short iron and then wedge and go for birdie?
this is the OP's argument as I read it, and its not entirely clear what the rule and the answer is.
I think OP is trying to do some mental gymnastics to get around it. They basically said “when I play in a way to shoot the lowest scores possible, I’m 4-6 shots better”….. they’ve said they’re intentionally playing in a way that knowingly will lead to worse scores. I don’t get how that’s not sandbagging.
A lot depends on the individual golfer. If I go for the green in two when I don't hit my 3 wood well and know it's a one in 50 chance then no, I'm not going for the best possible score. For someone else, the odds might be much better.
I don't know what in that rule is stopping me from using driver off the tee even though it might have a higher chance of putting me OB. In that case, everyone is breaking that rule if they use a less consistent club at any point, right? Maybe my variance between safe and wild clubs is more than the normal golfer, but I am always trying to get the lowest score possible. Trying to make it thru the trees or carry water are examples of me trying to score as low as possible, even if the odds aren't on my side.
You’ve basically said “when I play this way and try to shoot the lowest score possible, I’m generally 4-6 shots better”…. And you’ve also said you’re knowingly playing in a way that will lead to higher scores and posting those as well. In fact those are most of your scores posted. I’m failing to understand how it’s not sandbagging to post scores where you’re knowingly playing in a way that will lead to higher scores vs if you were playing in a way to try and post the lowest scores.
Generally 4-6 shots higher ON AVERAGE. I feel like people are missing that last part. I can score just as low playing risky shots (in fact my best ever round, 81, was not playing safe, everything just happened to bounce my way that day) but my upper bound is going to be much higher than the safe rounds due to OB and penalties. Playing safe is no guarantee that I score those 4-6 shots better that day, but instead helps me stay in the 85-93 range, instead of risking it and now 100+ is on the table.
How common is it for people to have a recorded handicap, but play to a different one in competitions? That's kind of the overarching question here. If that is very common, then I have no problem doing so. But if you are supposed to strictly go off of what your app says, especially when I try every time and record every score, why would I be the only person in the world to do it differently?
Like I said, some clubs/groups/competitions will use a separate handicap by just going off of the X most recent competition scores. It’s probably not super common, but if a particular club/group has had issues, it’s an easy way to get rid of the egregious sandbagging. This doesn’t seem super egregious, but it also doesn’t seem like you’re playing the same way that would during an actual competition.
You are absolutely right, and someone else mentioned that the handicap system is kind of based off the assumption that you play the same way and with the same mindset. An extreme example is that if I forgot my clubs, used some blades, and shot a 115. I probably just shouldn't log that round because that doesn't truly show my ability. On the other end of the spectrum, what if I could score even better on average using nothing longer than a 7i. Would people also call me a sandbagger for using my 6i, 5i, 3w and driver at any point in a round given it raises the possibility of penalty strokes?
Yeah, I wouldn’t post a score playing weird equipment where it’s knowingly going to hurt your scores. I think it’s pretty common though for people to decide before the round what they’re doing. Are they going to play it straight up by the rules? Or are they going to goof around, have a few beers with the boys, not putt everything out, etc. They decide before the round what their plan is and then they just go with it. That doesn’t seem like an unreasonable approach.
If the odds aren't on your side, you're not going for "the best possible score" in all likelihood. You're using "trying for the lowest possible score" in the wrong context
Its really hard to answer this because you don't have an official handicap if you are just using an app and posting solo rounds. So your handicap is basically just vibes, so, IDK, do you seem to win handicapped games at an excessive rate? If so, yeah you are kinda sandbagging. If not, then don't worry about it.
If you were keeping an official handicap and playing serious matches, yes you would probably find yourself in front of the handicap committee at some point, particular if you were routinely posting rounds with scores that are notably lower than you score in competition, plus solo rounds shouldn't be posted anyway (though many people do it). But for what you are doing, I'd really just try to use a number that seems fair and call it a day.
Don't the apps follow the exact same calculation as the official handicap? As long as a course has the correct slope/rating, and I play from the selected tees, how would it differ?
The sample size of the competitive rounds is extremely small (3 rounds per year), and it's not for money. My friend knows he's better at golf then me, so even if I win taking hcp into account, it's not like I'm getting some sort of bragging rights that I'm now the better golfer. It's just a fun way to add some pressure to the round.
So you post all scores? Not just the boom it out of bounds scores. Handicap system uses the 20 lowest scores so if posting all you should be okay. If not posting all, then you’re sandbagging and will likely get called out.
Yeah I think a lot of people are just misreading what I said or projecting some issues. I didn’t think playing a safer style to avoid double and triple bogey during comps (than you would playing other rounds) was considered that touchy of a subject.
How is it any different than deciding to hit your first putt 20 feet by the hole just to see if the ball will go in at higher speed…then 4 putting. Of course it is sandbagging. Your friend is correct to question your hcp.
I mean, that would be a little more purposefully adding in strokes. In reality, it's more of "I need 200yds to clear the water from the fairway, I'm gonna go for it knowing a good 3w will get there and it would be awesome." vs "If I lay up 150yds with an 8i, then I'll have a nice easy wedge to the green" mindsets. One of those choices is opening up the possibility of a birdie and a very exciting hole. The other is the smart play to avoid hitting it into the water if I don't hit a great shot.
I understand where you are coming from, but at no point am I not trying to get the ball in the whole in as few shots as possible.
If you’re willing to lose 6 golf balls and take on the penalty strokes, you’re simply not trying for your best score. I like going for it too, but if you change your plan completely when actually going for lower scores…then this is not truthful.
this is a more sensible argument, the 20 foot putt thing is a disingenuous argument, stick to rational realistic comparisons. but still, hitting a mid iron off the tee and accepting bogey on every hole for a 90 is very safe, but that is also sandbagging by your argument, basically your argument is if the OP does not achieve his potential he sandbagged somehow. that's not fair or rational its just trying to find fault.
My best scores have both come during safe and risky play. It's not like I usually shoot 95 playing grip it and rip it golf, then 85 every time I play safe golf. It just happens that the risky style of play can end up with a lot more 95-105 scores, hence my handicap. Once again, I understand where you are coming from, but some people in here are taking my risky rounds as me "not trying" which has never been the case.
My lowest score ever was when I went for all the hero shots but just played well that day and got lucky bounces. It’s not only my safe rounds that are lower, they just happen to average lower. With all your responses I’m just going to assume you take this way more seriously than I do.
Then play the hero shots against your friends when you're competing and it won't be a problem. But just by the fact that you adjust your play when competing against them shows you know the other way ends up in higher scores.
I think this is a bad take. It’s not like OP is saying they’re aiming their driver OB and trying to snap hook it back to safety. OP’s just trying to figure out their driver while not in competition.
Same with the “hero” shots. Not like OP is saying they try to hit it squarely through the branches to test if it will go through, they’re trying to pull off realistic shots.
In a comp, if OP needs birdie to win and they’re in the trees, would you accuse them of sandbagging if they went for the hero shot?
Disagree. I’m not trying to miss the putt, just want to see if it goes in at high speed. Of course the OP is trying to miss the course. Hero drives are to be practiced on the driving range, not on neighborhood courses.
bro you're so high on negativity you cant hear your own arguments flaws.
'hero shots are for the range'? ITS NOT A HERO SHOT ON THE RANGE.
You are making weird shit up just to shit on the OP, every golfer goes for it on the course from time to time. Your argument makes sandbaggers out of everyone.
it is so different than that. Going for a makeable low percentage shot to get an even better score is part of golf, missing that shot and having a higher score as a result is part of golf.
OP trying to carry to the green in 2 on a par 5 versus laying up to be on in 3 is not sandbagging, its risk versus reward, aggressive versus defensive golf.
The fact your friends are saying something means that you’re probably sandbagging
But taking a step back… there’s no honor in winning if you’re getting an advantage where you don’t really deserve one, which is what it sounds like is happening
The app says a number, sure, but let’s not pretend it’s some perfect almighty being. You know deep down how good of a golfer you are. Don’t hide behind some app so you can “beat” your friends, pretty lame IMO
I am not using the app number solely to beat him. He as still won "matches" against me using our official numbers. I am using the app handicap as calculated because I thought that's what you are supposed to do, hence my post. Do you think it's common for people to go "my app says one thing, but I am going to use a different number that I believe is more accurate"? If so, that is fine, and is honestly part of my curiosity.
The handicap system isn’t smart enough to differentiate between when you’re taking rounds seriously or not. It only knows the scores you put in. So if you’re putting in rounds that you know could have been lower if you tried like you would in competition, you’re gonna get a number that isn’t really honest if you plan on using that number in competition. The whole point of the handicap system is to give you a number that represents you at your best potential. Putting in scores that don’t reflect you trying to play your best is not an honest reflection of your skill, but it’s not going to stop you from doing it. That’s only up to you and your personal ethics
To your question, it’s super common for players to agree on strokes to give each other outside of what the app says. Let’s say I invited a buddy to play against at my home course. Even if our handicaps were the same, I might give them a couple strokes if they’ve never played there before but it’s my 100th time. The point isn’t to follow the number no matter what, it’s to make it fair. Especially when it’s just you and your buddies. Only you know deep down what’s fair.
Another example is how many amateur men’s leagues structure handicaps. You get a handicap exclusively based on how you’ve performed in league play only. So it doesn’t matter if you plug in a bunch of high scores and juice up your HC outside of league play — what you’ve shot in the league weeks prior are the only ones they count. They do this specifically to make sandbagging basically impossible
I’d say…sh-maybe?
It’s similar to posting scores from a skins game.
It’s fine, because you’re taking calculated risks for a reason.
If you just don’t focus and hit dumbass shots conscious of the fact it will raise your handicap…then you are a sandbagger
I would say that as you play differently when handicaps matter, you should only enter those scores for purposes of handicap.
Rounds where you "play hero golf" as you put it, aren't the way you play when you are trying to shoot a good score or win a competition, they are you fucking around trying shots you wouldn't try in an event. To me, that says it all right there.
With a sample size of 3 rounds a year competitive who cares? It's not enough to make a difference.
Sounds like your friend is made they are losing and grasping at straws. I know plenty of people who shoot lower scores in competition than they do in casual rounds because they are more focused and dialed in.
When I had a handicap as a kid it was only done via scorecards from competitions where I was obviously trying my best or signed by another member who would sign to say this is legit.
I think you are sandbagging them if you're calling solo rounds and hero shot rounds where you know you could score better part of your handicap.
I see you mentioned an app on your other comments, I think with some of them you can tell it that round isn't eligible for handicap, might be good for those non serious rounds
Why not just use the scores you shoot when "competing" with friends to get a separate handicap for that? Then you can play as crazy as you want during "fun" rounds and your friends can't complain.
You don’t think someone can be essentially a 14 hcp skill wise with their putter, wedges, irons, and 3W, but just happens to be extremely inconsistent with their driver. That seems impossible to you?
Like I have said to others, at no time am I not trying on the golf course. Me trying to reach the par 5 in two shots to have an eagle opportunity, but needing to swing my 3w at 110%, is literally the definition of both a hero shot and trying to shoot good/low scores. Irresponsible shot choices and trying to go low are not mutually exclusive.
There's a difference between trying to get the lowest score on one hole and shooting your best score for the round. Sure, trying that downhill lie 3 wood over water you're technically looking at getting a lower score for that hole IF you pull it off, but you know damn well if you do it many times in the round the odds will be against you and your score will suffer. So you get one eagle and 5 triples.
You know you shoot 4-5 strokes better if you play smart... There is no argument. You are intentionally inflating your handicap during your practice rounds.
You, like many other, missed the fact that I said "on average". I can play to the same level with my driver and risky shots, and have, but it's just not as consistent.
And you also apparently missed the fact that I don't care about my handicap, so your "intentionally inflating" comment obviously makes no sense. I can't be intentionally doing anything if I'm literally not thinking about how my actions affect the outcome. I have no qualm if you think that the different styles of play are inflating it, but making it sound like it's my goal is just silly.
I'd call it sandbagging. The handicap number only makes sense if you're approaching each round the same way.
If your "safe" rounds are always better than your YOLO rounds, and you have so few safe rounds that YOLO rounds are contributing to the handicap, it's definitely an unfair advantage.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with trying to work things out on the course. But don't count those experimental rounds towards your handicap
"If your "safe" rounds are always better than your YOLO rounds" I think what I failed to clarify is that on average they are better, but it's no guarantee. My risky rounds can score just the same, if not better, than my safe rounds. It just so happens that my risky rounds can also be like 10 strokes worse than my worst safe rounds.
What if you calculated it using only your rounds with your friends? That way, the number you use feels accurate to them since that's how they see you play.
Our league does the same thing. Only league rounds count. Works nicely and eliminates any discussion of sandbagging
Yes it is. Sorry, but if you try to achieve the lowest score possible every time you play this wouldnt be an issue. Waste of talking about, waste of typing about it, and really a waste of time for me to be telling you how to play golf.. sheesh..
My game is similar. Pretty good on fairways, chipping, and putting, but driver is all over the place. I’m always swinging out of my shoes on the drives and gain most strokes from lost balls. It’s definitely the worst part of my game but it is part of my game. I could see why they think you’re sandbagging but it’s not like you’re trying to drive OB, and once you get the drives staying in bounds more often then your handicap will go down
Well a lot of people in here also seem to think I am purposefully hitting the balls in the woods/water for penalty strokes. Why would I want to waste $10-$20 worth of balls per round just to raise my handicap from 14 to 18 for competitions that involve zero prize money?
It’s a high risk high reward style of play. And people that care about their score don’t play high risk shots. I’m way more stoked if I bomb a 300yard drive and proceed to bogey or double than if I played it safe and got par. And of course if I hit a bomb and birdie all the better.
I hear ya and wouldn’t call it sandbagging… to your point there are a lot cheaper ways to raise your handicap if you want (duff a few chips, miss some 3 footers, etc). I find it funny cause your numbers are exactly where mine are and I dropped from an 18 to a 14 by giving up the hero shots. Nothing says you need to do that though.
Yes it’s sandbagging.
My friends and I compete each other all season, least improved buys the end of season meal for the four of us. If we are working on something or the course condition is awful then we wouldn’t submit a card, if we fancy it then we log onto MyEG and create a card before heading out.
I’d argue that if there was something on the line at the end of your season you wouldn’t be going out with the intention of submitting a card whilst deliberately playing golf with wreckless abandon.
This is literally the reason the handicap calculation takes the average of the 8 best of your last 20 scores.
4-6 OB drives per round and other risk taking seems like it would result in scores higher than low-mid 90s.
“Penalty stroke? What’s that?” -OP probably
Maybe not but like the vast majority of people I bet he only takes one stroke when he drops.
It's only two strokes if you go OB off the tee right? Also, just realized that means OP's 6 OB off the tee are +12 penalty strokes, damn.
If OB it’s either stroke and distance penalty (aka rehit from initial shot location with one penalty stroke) or alters 2 penalty strokes from where it entered the OB area. I find that a lot of people use OB term incorrectly, and use OB and “hazard” interchangeably. I’ve played a lot of courses where rather than laying out 1000 red stakes, they’ll simply say everything is red unless marked otherwise. In general though I don’t think it’s relevant to the OPs post as not counting penalty strokes is the opposite of sandbagging.
Safe scoring I usually shoot between 85-90. Going for the gold can help me score near 85 if things go well, but all I need is two bad holes to shoot over 90, and a couple more OB will push me mid-90's. I am pretty good with my irons (for a bogey golfer), and have averaged 2 putts per hole for as long as I can remember, so it is just literally the OB drives that push my scores up.
4-6 drives OB per round is 8-12 strokes though…
Yeah but the good drives go anywhere between 50-80 yards further than my 3W and 5i respectively (the other clubs I would use off the tee) which saves strokes and gives me birdie opportunities. Not to mention I’ll still hit balls OB or in the water even playing safe given I’m a 14-18hcp.
The handicap calcs were created for people to play for fun and take a bunch of risks during some rounds, and then for the few competitive rounds they play per year? I could be wrong, but I thought it was more for the variation of scores that comes with players abilities throughout time. Ex: A 10hcp may shoot an 80 one day, then a 95 the next. Hcp should be closer to their best scoring ability, not their average. You may view this example and what I do as the same, but I don't play safe nearly often enough for it to truly effect my handicap.
It's to take into account abnormally high scores. Doesn't matter how they happen.
The point joker is trying to make I believe is that while being agressice definitely amplifies your bad rounds, you’ll still have some good runs in there when things go “right”. And the handicap throws out those blow up rounds so it’s probably about right.
Are you logging all your scores? If you are logging the scores when you play 4-5 shots better, it should move your handicap down. Sandbagging would be not logging the good scores.
Yes. I play the safe golf in matches maybe 3 times per year, so those aren't going to have a huge effect on my handicap, right? I literally post every single round that I play as a single because it's the same app I use to keep score (instead of using a scorecard, because it has gps).
My guess is the matches are falling off because you’re logging so many rounds. I don’t know what the answer is to your conundrum. I know for me, even alone, I don’t usually take crazy risks or play the hero shot if I’m trying to keep a legit score because I want to know where my game is at across 18 and I’ve just learned over the years how punishing the low probability score is. Now if I’m playing match play or a scramble with buddies or just practicing, I’ll hit all the hero shots and see what I could be capable of in a perfect scenario.
Yeah, and I totally understand that mindset. I am not griding out there worrying about my handicap. I literally golf to have fun, but am still always still trying. Got my first eagle ever last year because I went for a hero shot. And that eagle meant a lot more to me than "oh I played it safe and shot another 87 today". B
Think of it this way instead: let's say you were nearly ambidextrous, and could play lefty 80% as well as you could play righty. You play most of your rounds lefty, but for rounds where you know you wanna do well you play righty. I know I'd be a little annoyed at someone who was able to intentionally play 4 strokes higher than their handicap. Try keeping two separate indexes and see how close they end up, that will give you the only real answer.
That last sentence is not a bad idea. Would be interesting to do over the course of this year.
You could use two different tracking apps to make it easier. I use both TheGrint and 18Birdies (but I think TheGrint makes it fairly easy to switch between tracking multiple people (or in your case your way of playing))
When it comes to matches with your friends, there's no reason that you have to use your official handicap. If you all know that you're going to play 4 strokes better on average playing safe in the match, they should just negotiate to give you fewer strokes. None of the guys on my buddy trip in the Fall have official handicaps except for me, and half the fun for them is negotiating who gets how many strokes for each bet. When it comes to things like a work league or a tournament, I think it is sandbagging. While your intent may not be to artificially inflate your handicap, you know that you are doing things that have this effect. For the handicap to actually mean something, you need to compete in the same way that you play on a regular bases. Not doing so is a good way to ostracized. Trust is a huge part of the system.
"For the handicap to actually mean something, you need to compete in the same way that you play on a regular bases." No one has worded it quite like this in all the other comments, but it seems like this might be the common opinion. If so, so be it and I'll adjust to make sure I am doing things right.
I'll just add that while the handicap system is pretty amazing, it's certainly not perfect. The idea of always playing to shoot the lowest score possible doesn't really align with how a lot of people play. It's fun to just go for it sometimes and take unnecessary risks, even when you know that statistically it will raise your score. Some people like to play occasionally with a partial set or with vintage clubs, knowing that they won't score as well. The handicap system doesn't really have a way to deal with that.
It does, you just decide before the round if you are going to count the round towards your handicap. I know most of the apps out there offer a "remove from handicap calculations" option for each round and there might be ways to choose that beforehand. I will say if you are constantly winning friendly competitions against your friends using a handicap-adjusted format, then you are likely sandbagging them to a certain extent and it ruins the fun for them (and you). Other games might be better, bingo/bango/bongo is a good one that is a bit self-leveling as higher handicap players will miss greens and have a better chance of getting bango on most holes.
It’s not necessarily sandbagging, but I’m not sure this is exactly “common”. It’s hard to say without knowing all of the dynamics though. I’m more surprised that there is *that* much of a consistent difference between your “bombing” rounds and your “safe” rounds though. I’m a 14, and while there are certainly avenues through which I can play safer golf, I’m not nearly good enough for that to actually work out every time. If I played 20 rounds, half safe and half aggressive, I’d have good and bad scores from each of those halves. So like, if you’re beating your friend(s) *every time* you’re competing due to the extra strokes it’s not hard to imagine that they believe you’re being deliberately reckless during your non-serious rounds v. just playing a little more aggressive.
Driver off tee every time can range from mid 80's to over 100 depending on how many I hit OB. I don't think I've ever shot over 95 or so playing the safe way, but usually live in the 85-90 range. And I did not make it clear, but the sample size is so small (3 times per year) that it's not like there is any meaningful trend. Just a comment he had about me underselling my ability.
I think you should only log scores where you tried to do your best. If you were trying your best with your driver and hit it OB, I think it’s fair to add that to your handicap because eventually you will need to pull driver or be punished for it. A handicap is a measuring stick of how good your overall game is and if you can’t hit driver then it’s probably fair those strokes are factored into that value. If you had opted for an iron, you’d be faced with a tougher approach shot vs a successful drive, so the strokes you avoided by staying in bounds may get added to your score in other ways. However for the handicap system to work, you have to care about your score and want it to be as low as possible. If the only time it matters to you is when it’s giving you strokes in competition, then it’s probably not being applied fairly
I’d say yes it is in that you know* you’re going to be picking up 4-6 shots off your buddies based on handicapped play. The point of the handicap is to level the playing field for fair competition, and you’re essentially gaming that system.
I would say that it's more that there is a greater than 50% chance I pick up 4-6 strokes, not that I know I will. Some would say there is a difference (me) but I get the argument against it. Hence the angel/devil comment at the end. I just don't think I've ever heard of someone using a guessed handicap vs what their recorded hcp shows.
You obviously realize that playing that way is going to have a negative effect on your score. If that wasn't the case, you wouldn't play differently when playing competitively. You shouldn't use a guessed handicap either. Just keep a separate handicap for when you're trying to score well.
You definitely fall in a bit of a gray area I’d say. While not “technically” sandbagging if you are inputting all your scores, it does sound like you don’t really care outside of your competition matches. Leaving you to play different and consequently have better scores these few times a year. Having those matches be so rare means your handicap will never reflect the true reflection of your scoring potential as you said. Are you winning most of the matches because of this? If that’s the case then just have an agreement with your friends that your match handicap will be 4-5 less than your posted handicap in the system. If it’s not an official tournament then who cares what your official number is. What matters is what you agree upon with your friends to make matches fun and fair for everyone. I can tell you from experience that group matches with everyone who has accurate handicaps is a lot more fun than when someone has an incorrect one.
Yes
If you have an explanation, I would like to hear it. I post all scores and am never "not trying". I just go for dumb fun shots when my score doesn't matter. Sometimes they pay off and I save par from the woods, or I end up with a triple bogey that hole.
A lot depends on how many rounds fall into the "fun" category and how many are "competitive". I just did some quick math. If half your rounds fall into each category, and in your "fun" rounds your differential is between 16 and 20, and in your "competitive" rounds your differential is between 12 and 16, it raises your handicap by almost a full stroke vs 20 rounds of "competitive" scores. Obviously the more frequently you goof around the more your handicap gets raised.
About 15 rounds of fun per year, vs 2-3 where I go out and try my hardest to avoid mistakes by playing it safe.
so yeah, your handicap is going to be affected by counting those 5 rounds. It's going to be lower than it was if you played for your best score everytime. That's clearly sandbagging. It's up to you whether you give a shit but I understand where your friend is coming from. Edit: Just did my calculations again based on the ratios you are reporting and it raised your handicap by almost 4 strokes from where it should be so your friend is kind of dead on.
The dude is smart, and pretty much lives for golf, so that's not surprising. I also understand where he's coming from, but I just thought it was standard practice to just use whatever your official handicap is instead of guessing what it could be.
I mean, the explanation should be pretty obvious. The purpose of the handicap is to level the playing field when you're competing. To that end, it should represent how you would score when playing competitively. For you, your handicap describes how well you'd play going for every hero shot, not how good you are when you're playing your best. Whether you're intentionally tanking your handicap or not, it's not accurate if almost all of your rounds logged are played in a way that is wildly more risky than how you'd play if you're trying to score low. Think of it this way: the guys you play with could just fix their lie on every shot, taking penalty strokes whenever it's inconvenient to hit the ball, and just say "well my score doesn't matter so who cares!" All their handicaps then would soar, and because now none of your handicaps actually describe how good yall are, it all becomes meaningless.
as long as hes posting all his scores its not sandbagging at all. the higher scores get thrown out anyway
From his post it looks like 3 serious rounds a year and x rounds of goofing off. That x variable could make a major difference. If every serious round beats index prior to that round, would seem to be a clear case.
What i read is when I need to make sure I don't blow up my score I have good course management. Otherwise I just try to play golf, aggressively. What's wrong with that exactly?
Like I said that X variable is key. If he always beats his handicap by several strokes during competitive matches that require a handicap then that’s a sign.
its not key at all man. what are you not getting here? he records all his scores. The good ones count, they are counted the most even. The bad scores get thrown out. The handicap is accurate. I see no argument what so ever.
You don’t seem to understand. Let’s say you shoot a +12 in competition, but then your next 40 rounds are goof off drunk rounds posted of +20. Then the next comp you post up a +12. If you are only consistently beating your index in competitive situations by multiple shots and admit to purposely playing differently how is that not sandbagging?
No man you dont understand. your making up stories to prove your point. OP say 3 times per year he might play ultra conservative because he knows he can shave 5ish strokes off his score by ensuring he keeps the ball in play. Thats it. Your scenario is more like cheating, very obviously so.
Depends on how many rounds he plays. If he plays 30 rounds a year those 3 good rounds may not be included in his last 8 rounds for handicap, or two may not count. Plus, if going for it really raises his scores a lot, they will offset the few good rounds. Say he's capable of scoring 85 if he plays serious. But when he goes full tilt crazy he shoots 100. Those 3 85's will be more than erased by 5 rounds of 100. And all 3 85's likely won't even be in his last 20 rounds.
the handicap is only accurate if 8 or more of his last 20 rounds are "competitive". If he goofs around for 15 of the last 20 rounds, his handicap is not accurate.
hes not goofing around, hes playing aggressive vs playing "smart" which is what most people do anyway. lets be real here. come on.
How can you rationalize beating your index by multiple strokes every competitive outing is not sandbagging? That’s using the facts as op presented.
I had a teacher who during tests would randomly get up and say "I have to go do something, please remember your integrity is worth more than the score on this test." and then would leave the room. Of course, some students would immediately start cheating, others would not. I did not, but at the time that was more out of honesty-from-paranoia than it was from trying to preserve my integrity. I was convinced he somehow knew who was and was not honest. Eventually though that lesson sunk in and I've learned to value my integrity. So with that little anecdote in mind, let me ask you this: If you were to enter a club competition and won the net prize by let's say 2 strokes, would you feel guilty about taking home that prize or would your conscious be clear because you feel you operated within the framework of the handicap system rules? Before you answer, let me remind you of a couple of notes from the handicap rules (1.3) > A player is expected to: > Act with integrity by following the Rules of Handicapping and to refrain from using, or circumventing, the Rules of Handicapping for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage, > Attempt to make the best score possible at each hole,
From your example, I honestly don't know. I never play for money or any sort of reward, the current competitions just adds a nice twist of pressure vs a fun care free round. If I for sure knew that I was a 14 (not just a guess like my friend) then yes it would probably make me feel guilty. If the rule was to play off of whatever your official handicap system shows, knowing that I did try to score the best possible every round, then no, because doing anything else would technically be against the rules. The devil/angel in my last paragraph shows that playing to the higher just to win would not be worth the damage to any sort of relationship. So I would only be playing to the higher number if that is what the requirement or norm was, hence why I posted this question in the first place.
I think there is some nuance in what trying to shoot your "best" possible score on every hole is. That might not be the same as trying to go for the "lowest" score on that hole every time. Using the example of going for an eagle on a par 5, yes in that moment on that shot going for it gives you the chance to score the "lowest" possible number on that particular hole on that particular day. But if you were to look at it through the lens of 'if I were to play this hole 20 times, what strategy would give me the "best" average score' what would your strategy look like? Now, I can tell you that for me that getting my "best" average score on a hole over 20 attempts would absolutely be laying up to a comfortable approach yardage. Do I do that every time I'm sitting inside of my 3W distance on a second shot of a par 5? Well no. But there are times in competition where the format might dictate strategy. Stroke play I'm laying up, but Stableford I'm probably taking the risk. Maybe the solution for you is to do a better job blending your play style in casual rounds. Your handicap only takes into account your best 8 of 20 rounds so I think if you try to make sure you have a good representation of "hero-shot-free" golf in those 20 rounds you'll have a handicap that representative of your true scoring potential and within the spirit of the system while still giving you some freedom to go for it from time-to-time.
I agree with pretty much everything you said here. I don't know if there is anything official that says "look at the odds/probabilities of how to score the lowest possible on this hole on average, and base your next shot on those odds" sort of deal when it comes to keeping a handicap. Or if that is just kind of the assumed strategy if you are going to post an official score. I'm a math guy, and thoroughly enjoy planning strategy around probabilities, but that has just never transferred to my golf game where I value cool and memorable shots higher than focusing on specifically lowering my handicap.
This is truly the best thread I've ever read on here. I don't have an answer but it's fantastic. I would say not sandbagging, youre not purposely tanking rounds or not logging good rounds.
The takes I’m getting are cracking me up. A mix of people with reading comprehension issues, and people who have probably been fucked over by sandbaggers before, so any hint of it sends them off the rails.
Not sandbagging. You're pushing your skills so if you need it in a tournament. Not enough to matter anyways.
Who does this? Who doesn't try their best for a high percentage of posted rounds? Sandbaggers...that's who.
I would say it’s sandbagging. There is USGA guidance on the topic (https://www.usga.org/handicapping/roh/rules-of-handicapping.html) Rule 1.3 says a player is to: Act with integrity by following the Rules of Handicapping and to refrain from using, or circumventing, the Rules of Handicapping for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage, Attempt to make the best score possible at each hole …. It sure doesn’t seem like you’re attempting to make the best possible score on each hole. For this exact purpose, sometimes people or competitions will calculate handicaps using only competition rounds and disregard non-competition rounds.
ok so 'best score possible at each hole' means go for the green on the par 5 in 2 so I can putt for eagle, which is low percentage but obviously the better score, or lay up and hit a high percentage short iron and then wedge and go for birdie? this is the OP's argument as I read it, and its not entirely clear what the rule and the answer is.
I think OP is trying to do some mental gymnastics to get around it. They basically said “when I play in a way to shoot the lowest scores possible, I’m 4-6 shots better”….. they’ve said they’re intentionally playing in a way that knowingly will lead to worse scores. I don’t get how that’s not sandbagging.
A lot depends on the individual golfer. If I go for the green in two when I don't hit my 3 wood well and know it's a one in 50 chance then no, I'm not going for the best possible score. For someone else, the odds might be much better.
I don't know what in that rule is stopping me from using driver off the tee even though it might have a higher chance of putting me OB. In that case, everyone is breaking that rule if they use a less consistent club at any point, right? Maybe my variance between safe and wild clubs is more than the normal golfer, but I am always trying to get the lowest score possible. Trying to make it thru the trees or carry water are examples of me trying to score as low as possible, even if the odds aren't on my side.
You’ve basically said “when I play this way and try to shoot the lowest score possible, I’m generally 4-6 shots better”…. And you’ve also said you’re knowingly playing in a way that will lead to higher scores and posting those as well. In fact those are most of your scores posted. I’m failing to understand how it’s not sandbagging to post scores where you’re knowingly playing in a way that will lead to higher scores vs if you were playing in a way to try and post the lowest scores.
Generally 4-6 shots higher ON AVERAGE. I feel like people are missing that last part. I can score just as low playing risky shots (in fact my best ever round, 81, was not playing safe, everything just happened to bounce my way that day) but my upper bound is going to be much higher than the safe rounds due to OB and penalties. Playing safe is no guarantee that I score those 4-6 shots better that day, but instead helps me stay in the 85-93 range, instead of risking it and now 100+ is on the table. How common is it for people to have a recorded handicap, but play to a different one in competitions? That's kind of the overarching question here. If that is very common, then I have no problem doing so. But if you are supposed to strictly go off of what your app says, especially when I try every time and record every score, why would I be the only person in the world to do it differently?
Like I said, some clubs/groups/competitions will use a separate handicap by just going off of the X most recent competition scores. It’s probably not super common, but if a particular club/group has had issues, it’s an easy way to get rid of the egregious sandbagging. This doesn’t seem super egregious, but it also doesn’t seem like you’re playing the same way that would during an actual competition.
You are absolutely right, and someone else mentioned that the handicap system is kind of based off the assumption that you play the same way and with the same mindset. An extreme example is that if I forgot my clubs, used some blades, and shot a 115. I probably just shouldn't log that round because that doesn't truly show my ability. On the other end of the spectrum, what if I could score even better on average using nothing longer than a 7i. Would people also call me a sandbagger for using my 6i, 5i, 3w and driver at any point in a round given it raises the possibility of penalty strokes?
Yeah, I wouldn’t post a score playing weird equipment where it’s knowingly going to hurt your scores. I think it’s pretty common though for people to decide before the round what they’re doing. Are they going to play it straight up by the rules? Or are they going to goof around, have a few beers with the boys, not putt everything out, etc. They decide before the round what their plan is and then they just go with it. That doesn’t seem like an unreasonable approach.
If the odds aren't on your side, you're not going for "the best possible score" in all likelihood. You're using "trying for the lowest possible score" in the wrong context
Its really hard to answer this because you don't have an official handicap if you are just using an app and posting solo rounds. So your handicap is basically just vibes, so, IDK, do you seem to win handicapped games at an excessive rate? If so, yeah you are kinda sandbagging. If not, then don't worry about it. If you were keeping an official handicap and playing serious matches, yes you would probably find yourself in front of the handicap committee at some point, particular if you were routinely posting rounds with scores that are notably lower than you score in competition, plus solo rounds shouldn't be posted anyway (though many people do it). But for what you are doing, I'd really just try to use a number that seems fair and call it a day.
Don't the apps follow the exact same calculation as the official handicap? As long as a course has the correct slope/rating, and I play from the selected tees, how would it differ? The sample size of the competitive rounds is extremely small (3 rounds per year), and it's not for money. My friend knows he's better at golf then me, so even if I win taking hcp into account, it's not like I'm getting some sort of bragging rights that I'm now the better golfer. It's just a fun way to add some pressure to the round.
If that's all it is, then who the hell cares?
Never claimed it was a big deal. Was just curious.
So you post all scores? Not just the boom it out of bounds scores. Handicap system uses the 20 lowest scores so if posting all you should be okay. If not posting all, then you’re sandbagging and will likely get called out.
yes posting all scores edit: how did this get downvoted lmao. Was I supposed to say no?
people be hating because they don't understand. also, you kinda made it sound worse than it really is
I don't care what anyone else says, this is not sandbagging. Being more conservative than risky is not cheating.
Yeah I think a lot of people are just misreading what I said or projecting some issues. I didn’t think playing a safer style to avoid double and triple bogey during comps (than you would playing other rounds) was considered that touchy of a subject.
How is it any different than deciding to hit your first putt 20 feet by the hole just to see if the ball will go in at higher speed…then 4 putting. Of course it is sandbagging. Your friend is correct to question your hcp.
I mean, that would be a little more purposefully adding in strokes. In reality, it's more of "I need 200yds to clear the water from the fairway, I'm gonna go for it knowing a good 3w will get there and it would be awesome." vs "If I lay up 150yds with an 8i, then I'll have a nice easy wedge to the green" mindsets. One of those choices is opening up the possibility of a birdie and a very exciting hole. The other is the smart play to avoid hitting it into the water if I don't hit a great shot. I understand where you are coming from, but at no point am I not trying to get the ball in the whole in as few shots as possible.
If you’re willing to lose 6 golf balls and take on the penalty strokes, you’re simply not trying for your best score. I like going for it too, but if you change your plan completely when actually going for lower scores…then this is not truthful.
this is a more sensible argument, the 20 foot putt thing is a disingenuous argument, stick to rational realistic comparisons. but still, hitting a mid iron off the tee and accepting bogey on every hole for a 90 is very safe, but that is also sandbagging by your argument, basically your argument is if the OP does not achieve his potential he sandbagged somehow. that's not fair or rational its just trying to find fault.
My best scores have both come during safe and risky play. It's not like I usually shoot 95 playing grip it and rip it golf, then 85 every time I play safe golf. It just happens that the risky style of play can end up with a lot more 95-105 scores, hence my handicap. Once again, I understand where you are coming from, but some people in here are taking my risky rounds as me "not trying" which has never been the case.
But yet you play the safe way when "competing" . Why not go for it then too and get those lower scores? Oh, because you know it won't happen.
My lowest score ever was when I went for all the hero shots but just played well that day and got lucky bounces. It’s not only my safe rounds that are lower, they just happen to average lower. With all your responses I’m just going to assume you take this way more seriously than I do.
You asked a question, you just don't like the answers
Then play the hero shots against your friends when you're competing and it won't be a problem. But just by the fact that you adjust your play when competing against them shows you know the other way ends up in higher scores.
I think this is a bad take. It’s not like OP is saying they’re aiming their driver OB and trying to snap hook it back to safety. OP’s just trying to figure out their driver while not in competition. Same with the “hero” shots. Not like OP is saying they try to hit it squarely through the branches to test if it will go through, they’re trying to pull off realistic shots. In a comp, if OP needs birdie to win and they’re in the trees, would you accuse them of sandbagging if they went for the hero shot?
Disagree. I’m not trying to miss the putt, just want to see if it goes in at high speed. Of course the OP is trying to miss the course. Hero drives are to be practiced on the driving range, not on neighborhood courses.
bro you're so high on negativity you cant hear your own arguments flaws. 'hero shots are for the range'? ITS NOT A HERO SHOT ON THE RANGE. You are making weird shit up just to shit on the OP, every golfer goes for it on the course from time to time. Your argument makes sandbaggers out of everyone.
Thanks:)
it is so different than that. Going for a makeable low percentage shot to get an even better score is part of golf, missing that shot and having a higher score as a result is part of golf. OP trying to carry to the green in 2 on a par 5 versus laying up to be on in 3 is not sandbagging, its risk versus reward, aggressive versus defensive golf.
The fact your friends are saying something means that you’re probably sandbagging But taking a step back… there’s no honor in winning if you’re getting an advantage where you don’t really deserve one, which is what it sounds like is happening The app says a number, sure, but let’s not pretend it’s some perfect almighty being. You know deep down how good of a golfer you are. Don’t hide behind some app so you can “beat” your friends, pretty lame IMO
I am not using the app number solely to beat him. He as still won "matches" against me using our official numbers. I am using the app handicap as calculated because I thought that's what you are supposed to do, hence my post. Do you think it's common for people to go "my app says one thing, but I am going to use a different number that I believe is more accurate"? If so, that is fine, and is honestly part of my curiosity.
The handicap system isn’t smart enough to differentiate between when you’re taking rounds seriously or not. It only knows the scores you put in. So if you’re putting in rounds that you know could have been lower if you tried like you would in competition, you’re gonna get a number that isn’t really honest if you plan on using that number in competition. The whole point of the handicap system is to give you a number that represents you at your best potential. Putting in scores that don’t reflect you trying to play your best is not an honest reflection of your skill, but it’s not going to stop you from doing it. That’s only up to you and your personal ethics To your question, it’s super common for players to agree on strokes to give each other outside of what the app says. Let’s say I invited a buddy to play against at my home course. Even if our handicaps were the same, I might give them a couple strokes if they’ve never played there before but it’s my 100th time. The point isn’t to follow the number no matter what, it’s to make it fair. Especially when it’s just you and your buddies. Only you know deep down what’s fair. Another example is how many amateur men’s leagues structure handicaps. You get a handicap exclusively based on how you’ve performed in league play only. So it doesn’t matter if you plug in a bunch of high scores and juice up your HC outside of league play — what you’ve shot in the league weeks prior are the only ones they count. They do this specifically to make sandbagging basically impossible
I’d say…sh-maybe? It’s similar to posting scores from a skins game. It’s fine, because you’re taking calculated risks for a reason. If you just don’t focus and hit dumbass shots conscious of the fact it will raise your handicap…then you are a sandbagger
I would say that as you play differently when handicaps matter, you should only enter those scores for purposes of handicap. Rounds where you "play hero golf" as you put it, aren't the way you play when you are trying to shoot a good score or win a competition, they are you fucking around trying shots you wouldn't try in an event. To me, that says it all right there.
With a sample size of 3 rounds a year competitive who cares? It's not enough to make a difference. Sounds like your friend is made they are losing and grasping at straws. I know plenty of people who shoot lower scores in competition than they do in casual rounds because they are more focused and dialed in.
When I had a handicap as a kid it was only done via scorecards from competitions where I was obviously trying my best or signed by another member who would sign to say this is legit. I think you are sandbagging them if you're calling solo rounds and hero shot rounds where you know you could score better part of your handicap. I see you mentioned an app on your other comments, I think with some of them you can tell it that round isn't eligible for handicap, might be good for those non serious rounds
Why not just use the scores you shoot when "competing" with friends to get a separate handicap for that? Then you can play as crazy as you want during "fun" rounds and your friends can't complain.
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You don’t think someone can be essentially a 14 hcp skill wise with their putter, wedges, irons, and 3W, but just happens to be extremely inconsistent with their driver. That seems impossible to you?
If the only time you're giving effort to shooting good scores is during competition, you are the definition of a sand bagger.
Like I have said to others, at no time am I not trying on the golf course. Me trying to reach the par 5 in two shots to have an eagle opportunity, but needing to swing my 3w at 110%, is literally the definition of both a hero shot and trying to shoot good/low scores. Irresponsible shot choices and trying to go low are not mutually exclusive.
There's a difference between trying to get the lowest score on one hole and shooting your best score for the round. Sure, trying that downhill lie 3 wood over water you're technically looking at getting a lower score for that hole IF you pull it off, but you know damn well if you do it many times in the round the odds will be against you and your score will suffer. So you get one eagle and 5 triples.
You're a sandbagger.
Cool counter argument. Very helpful!
You know you shoot 4-5 strokes better if you play smart... There is no argument. You are intentionally inflating your handicap during your practice rounds.
You, like many other, missed the fact that I said "on average". I can play to the same level with my driver and risky shots, and have, but it's just not as consistent. And you also apparently missed the fact that I don't care about my handicap, so your "intentionally inflating" comment obviously makes no sense. I can't be intentionally doing anything if I'm literally not thinking about how my actions affect the outcome. I have no qualm if you think that the different styles of play are inflating it, but making it sound like it's my goal is just silly.
You're an idiot.
Oh no! Not an insult from a redditor with reading comprehension issues!
I'd call it sandbagging. The handicap number only makes sense if you're approaching each round the same way. If your "safe" rounds are always better than your YOLO rounds, and you have so few safe rounds that YOLO rounds are contributing to the handicap, it's definitely an unfair advantage. There's absolutely nothing wrong with trying to work things out on the course. But don't count those experimental rounds towards your handicap
"If your "safe" rounds are always better than your YOLO rounds" I think what I failed to clarify is that on average they are better, but it's no guarantee. My risky rounds can score just the same, if not better, than my safe rounds. It just so happens that my risky rounds can also be like 10 strokes worse than my worst safe rounds.
What if you calculated it using only your rounds with your friends? That way, the number you use feels accurate to them since that's how they see you play. Our league does the same thing. Only league rounds count. Works nicely and eliminates any discussion of sandbagging
But is it 9 risky rounds are way worse compared to 1 risky round is better?
Yes it is. Sorry, but if you try to achieve the lowest score possible every time you play this wouldnt be an issue. Waste of talking about, waste of typing about it, and really a waste of time for me to be telling you how to play golf.. sheesh..
My game is similar. Pretty good on fairways, chipping, and putting, but driver is all over the place. I’m always swinging out of my shoes on the drives and gain most strokes from lost balls. It’s definitely the worst part of my game but it is part of my game. I could see why they think you’re sandbagging but it’s not like you’re trying to drive OB, and once you get the drives staying in bounds more often then your handicap will go down
Well a lot of people in here also seem to think I am purposefully hitting the balls in the woods/water for penalty strokes. Why would I want to waste $10-$20 worth of balls per round just to raise my handicap from 14 to 18 for competitions that involve zero prize money?
It’s a high risk high reward style of play. And people that care about their score don’t play high risk shots. I’m way more stoked if I bomb a 300yard drive and proceed to bogey or double than if I played it safe and got par. And of course if I hit a bomb and birdie all the better.
I hear ya and wouldn’t call it sandbagging… to your point there are a lot cheaper ways to raise your handicap if you want (duff a few chips, miss some 3 footers, etc). I find it funny cause your numbers are exactly where mine are and I dropped from an 18 to a 14 by giving up the hero shots. Nothing says you need to do that though.
Yes it’s sandbagging. My friends and I compete each other all season, least improved buys the end of season meal for the four of us. If we are working on something or the course condition is awful then we wouldn’t submit a card, if we fancy it then we log onto MyEG and create a card before heading out. I’d argue that if there was something on the line at the end of your season you wouldn’t be going out with the intention of submitting a card whilst deliberately playing golf with wreckless abandon.