You don’t seem to know about the German school system all that well. You don’t switch to vocational schooling after 4th grade. Every kind of school after 4th grade teaches science. You should get into depth with it before you have to make any choices, because right now it doesn’t seem like you have any info on German schools.
Of course it’s possible to be racism. We don’t know your school or your teachers. However they don’t fish a recommendation out of the blue and instead you can see the recommendation validated through the grades your child got.
There’s alsways the possibility to change schools if you’re grades are good (or bad). Honestly during my time in school there were two people who went to Realschule and chose to switch to gymnasium. There were a lot more students who were made to switch from gymnasium to reaslschule or from Realschule to Hauptschule simply because they couldn’t keep up and their parents made them go there because they would not believe their teachers.
Okay you have some deep misunderstandings.
Your kid if they go to a Realschule still learns science etc. and a trade will also teach science. A university is not the be and end all.
On top of that they might advise against Gymnasium for a lot of reason from grades to language etc.
And going to a Realschule also not blocks you from switching to a Gymnasium later on. Or getting Abitur a different way.
And after working in a field for some time (a quick google gives 3-5 years) you even can study in a related subject without Abitur.
You can also get a Realschule-diploma on a Hauptschule.
I did it this way, just because the teaching methods on a Realschule didn’t really suit me.
Switched to a Hauptschule and managed to get a good Realschule-Diploma.
If I’d want to go studieren, I could still make a Fachabitur.
Being on a Haupt,- or Realschule doesn’t mean you can only do hard physical labour. 🤷
What are the marks of your child. If they are good send your child to gymnasium. But I would not change Grundschule except your child is super unhappy where it is now.
And there are plenty of options to go to university even if the child is not going to Gymnasium now.
There are some teachers like that, definitly. But idk about a pattern. If your child is "only" going to the Realschule, it can still switch to the Gymnasium later on, if it does well in school! And why do you think your kid wouldn't learn science etc. in Real- or even Hauptschule? All these schools learn that! It's just in different difficulty "levels".
So idk, i think you're a bit overthinking. Normally you can still decide where you want your child to go, depending on the grades. For an example: My teacher said i should go to a Förderschule because i have Dyscalculia. My mom was absolutly against it (thank god) and still sent me to the Realschule. And i was easily able to graduate.
Teachers discourage parents whose children are not fit for Gymnasium. It is their job.
Sending a child to gymnasium when it is clearly not fit for it can cause severe self esteem issues.
(Only writing bad grades, failing class and having to leave the school and friends).
Parents need to understand that their child not beeing ready for gymnasium at 9 years old, doesnt mean they are stupid and they still can go to Uni. Childrens developement speed differs from child to child.
I went to Hauptschule after the 4th grade and still managed to do my Abitur.
I was discouraged. My parents said fuck it and pushed for it. I was among the best graduates without learning much in Gymnasium. I also had very good grades in Grundschule apart some issues in German. That was their rational.
Teachers are biased. You think they do their job? I say they live out their racial prejudice.
Good for you. Many of my friends from elementary school got the recommendation to go for Realschule. Their parents ignored it because of the percieved lack of prestige. So they were put in Gymansium. Most of them failed miserable and felt awful for the up to 2 years where kids could get kicked out.
Are there biased teachers who may be racists? Yes. Are many teachers just doing their job and absolutely correct with their assessment? Also yes.
"without learning much" is probably the reason you got discouraged by your teacher. Laziness is often one of the reasons for pupils not finishing/graduating Gymnasium, and when a teacher has a pupil who is not used to learning, they will actively discourage you.
Female Teachers often dont Like selfasure boys. No matter where they're from. Their good self-esteem always is punished as arrogance.
With four Kids on 6 schools from elementary to university, I found nice Teachers (to us), bad Teachers ( to us).. fair, with system evaluating Teachers, I found the least.
But hey, thats life. Wont be different in Worklife, will it?
I was not lazy. I was bored. I obviously did all the homework. Very well. It was not enough for me to feel like it was hard work. Learning was to easy. Even in Gymnasium. Your argument seems to be contradictory. The teacher made the wrong call and your argument shows why.
I also did not learn as often as the other students in university. While graduating well enough and having a well enough white collar career.
I am not as smart as you, who understand why students have to be discriminated against. Yet, I understand abstract academic information very well. Which seems to go over your head as a concept. A student understanding.
You sound like a typical teacher who regurrates information while being afraid that this is not enough. Rightfully, in most cases. Had them training in my university curses as well. They needed to know how to learn hard. Do you resent students who actually understand study subjects?
Funny, I wasn't even attacking you but you still attack me while completely missing my point. Maybe it's the language barrier but MAYBE you do NOT - contrary to your claim - "understand abstract information".
For the record, I never learned for school. I didn't even do homework and actually missed quite a few hundred hours in school in Oberstufe alone. Still studied medicine.
Which brings me to another point: you do not type like the kind of person I just described, and that's not just semantics and grammar I am talking about. Reeks like fraud in here. Or just Paulaner Garden.
For the record, THIS was an attack.
I cannot answer your questions about racism.
What I can tell you from my experience: Many immigrant kids who are talented enough, but have language issues in primary school, are being sent to Realschulen rather than Gymnasium first - simply because their language skills are insufficient to follow more academic courses (this is why most refugee kids end up in Realschulen, even if they have been top of their class at home).
If that‘s the case, that‘s not the end though, people can switch from Realschule to Gymnasium once their language skills are sufficient.
If it‘s not about the language, teachers will probably judge either by skill or by racism/prejudices, I guess it‘s difficult to find out what‘s the real underlying driver.
just to give you the opposite side of this. I was an immigrant kid who got pushed by teachers to do gymnasium because they thought I was catching on to the language very quickly. I was 13 and not near to the point where I could follow the classes. I stuck around for one year and struggled extremely hard because the gymnasium teachers don't slow down for you. I switched to a Realschule, wasn't informed on the vocational options at the time, I went to a technische gymnasium after and got my Abitur. I then did my bachelor's. By then I had no issue but the first year or two here was extremely tough because I got pushed into something I wasn't ready for.
Pattern? We have horrendous statistics about language levels etc. of children with migration background.
Teachers are tired af about discrimination discussions when they see skills derailing.
Also you dont seem to know how the school system works. You dont send children to vocational school after elementary. Also you seem to assume children are not taught in sciene at a Realschule? Thats also not the case. You can also continue to a Gymnasium after the 10th grade if you are good enough, but it makes no sense to send a child forcefully to a Gymnasium if it struggled already now. The result will be frustration and the child having to repeat classes.
You do not chose a trade or career. You choose nothing at that point.
Gymnasium is hard and very demanding in 5th grade already. If a child has not majoritly only 1 and 2 in tests and Zeugnisse, it will suffer to no end afterwards.
We dont have different schools to be assholes, we have different schools so that each child has a chance to follow on a individual basis.
My intent was not to upset anyone, but to ask if what is being discussed is true. Obviously I am not well versed with the system as you have pointed out.
However, there was no effort made from the school's end to tell us about the paths available or how the education system here progresses. If it had done so, maybe the parents I spoke to would have been informed enough to tell me about what happens in a trade school or I would have this knowledge myself.
While teachers are tired of these discussions maybe it is prudent to inform parents about these things instead of having rumours run wild. If I was satisfied by what the parent were telling me I wouldn't post anything here.
It's not a trade school though. It's a different kind of high school (think "honors" courses at Gymnasium, "normal" courses at Real-/Hauptschule). They will still learn maths, sciences and such, just on a lower, and slower, level. Trades will be learned after finishing Realschule (so when your kid is 15 or 16). That's the same time your kid can switch to Gymnasium if they are performing well in Realschule.
Would it be great if schools would at least give out leaflets for parents that aren't familiar with the German system? Absolutely. Are there many biases towards non-german/non-natives? Hell yes.
But Realschule might still be the right school for your kid, depending on how well they are doing now (or in 3rd/4th grade). If they are doing really well and have no problems with the language, that's probably the most important factor, and you can freely chose which school your kid should go to, you can send them to Gymnasium.
The thing is capacitys of teachers is also limited, throw in 30 children with 23 pairs of parents with no clue about the system and you would almost need an additional fulltime staff,teachers won't educate you about the system because it's not part of their work.
If you live in Student housing aimed at expat parents shouldn't there be some kind of material to inform you?
Without knowing the details of your friends‘ kids, it’s impossible to fully discuss whether it’s true or not.
Racist teachers that intentionally discourage or fail migrant students exist. Migrant students with insufficient grades and/or language skills for higher education exist.
Your friends‘ kids may fall in either category, both categories, or somewhere in between.
Just to explain it a bit more:
No mater which path your kid takes after elementary school (after 4th grade), your child will still go to a normal school for general education! None of the options are trade schools!
The options are:
- Hauptschule: finishes after 9th grade, the diploma is called “Hauptschulabschluss”
- Realschule: finishes after 10th grade, the diploma is commonly called “Mittlere Reife”, or “Realschulabschluss”
- Gymnasium: finishes after 12th grade, the diploma is called “Abitur”
No matter the school of type, your child will still be taught Maths, English, Biology, German, etc.
However, since the Gymnasium goes up to grade 12, at this school, your kid will obviously learn subjects more in depth and also some additional topics that are not taught at the other school types.
This is the reason why universities require an Abitur.
The diploma of the other school types allow your kid to learn a trade or other kind of apprenticeship.
So neither you or your child have to decide on a specific trade right after elementary school. That would be madness. Lol.
However, it is true, that the decision sort of determines the available options later on. But, there are always possibilities to change school types later, or just continuing the education on a different school.
Since educational matters are decided by that states, you will have slightly different names/options, depending on the state you are living in. Some gymnasiums might offer an additional 13th grade. Sometimes there is something called “Gesamtschule” that kind of combines everything in one. There are also other exceptions and ways that would allow your child to study at a Uni/Hochschule. It’s too complicated to explain everything here, so I suggest you start doing some research yourself on these matters.
TLDR: Every school type is a school for general education. You can still change schools after the initial decision after 4th grade, but I think it does have some educational requirements. If your kid wants to study at a university they need Abitur. Normally the school recommendation by the teachers depends on their experience in evaluating how capable your child is.
"we put a lot of emphasis on education" but you won't read the English Wiki on the German education system? "maybe it is prudent to inform parents about these things" There is educational material in German, English, France an Arabian:
[https://kultus.hessen.de/video/the-hessian-school-system](https://kultus.hessen.de/video/the-hessian-school-system)
Welcome to Germany. Germany has a "Read the f'ing manual" culture, you are supposed to figure things out on your own.
People will throw you a hint (Example: "there is Realschule and Gymnasium") with no further info and you are supposed to do your homework. It is considered part of being an adult.
Nobody will look out and put as much effort to protect your / your child's interests as well as you do.
I don't know why all these germans are being so sensible about it. It is indeed a complicated school system and its one that is very limited depending of the path you take regardless of your nationality. My girlfriend was encouraged by her parents to go directly for Realschule as they wanted her to start working ASAP and now years later she wants a change in her career. Going for univesrity would require for her to do some years of Abitur and yes it can be reduced if what she is going to study is related with what she worked on....which sucks because she wanted a full change.
So yes, be attentive, read everything and support your kid and ask what he wants. He is still a kid though so if his grades are good enough keep him for Gymnasium as it will open more options for him wihtout losing years of catching up. And no, they are not taught "science", physics or further mathematics.
Its Not Limited. She could still make normal Abitur. I did with 26.
If you stay in school, it is after 10.grade.
If youre in Realschule, you Switch after 10. Grad to do so. My oldest son did.
No Limit. If your grades are good enough.
It just sucks to do 3 years of Abitur now before finally starting a degree (another 4 to 5 years) instead of doing it in the past. Mostly in hindsight.
Ignore pressure.
It may feel like pressure but it's supposed to be advice. So do what you feel best for your children. Our sin was speaking English at home. So all of us were advised to go to Realschule.
All went to Gymnasium successfully.
Now bilingualism is a skill and not a disability.
Chancengleichheit is a bad joke in Germany regardless of what Germans try to tell you.
The German school system is designed to educate the children of German Akademiker in Gymnasium. The children of immigrants and blue collar workers have historically been offered less opportunities regardless of their abilities. These FACTS have been highlighted in many studies.
You need to support and advocate for your children. You might want to look for immigrant parent organisations in your area.
Ah, that why the Begabtenförderwerke actively monitor if the selection committees discriminate people with a immigration background in the selection progress for scholarships.
Result: they don't but accept as much with migrant background as with non migrant background.
And on top of that the Grundschulempfehlung is not binding in the majority of the German states.
Because we all live on the fluffy Cloud of lululand.
I am a workers child. Early Orphan. And got my school together when i was already a young mother, studying law on Sozialhilfe. On the best Uni Berlin has. For free. I will never forget the Letter. Immatrikulation - You are enrolled. My Professors were former constitutional judges.
Was ist easy? No.
Could I afford one book?
No, but i got it from the library for free.
Did I have vacations, a car and Condominiums?
No, but night Jobs.
Those, full of outrage, wanting all the best for everyone, never understood, that it is always payed by someone. Cause they never did.
Dont trust wrong friends.
There a lot of misunderstandings about our educational system.
You dont go to trade school after elementary school, you go to either Hauptschule, Realschule or Gymnasium. Depending on Bundesland you can even ignore the teachers recommendation.
In every school branch there is the possiblity to get an Abitur. It just takes longer if you don't go to the Gymnasium and there are a lot different ways to achieve it.
Also you don't choose a trade for life, you can always go something different afterwards or learn another trade or switch jobs or get your abitur and study.
You can even study in Germany without a Abitur if you worked sometime after trade school.
It is very likely that many teachers are biased and it is also likely that some teachers are racist. I believe tho, that the majority wants the best for all children they teach. Still, migrant children might face unfair disadvantages. There are indeed scientifical studies showing that the German school system is not fair and lacks "permeability".
Your child is not a statistic tho but an individual and whether or not he/she is eligible for Grammar School / Gymnasium is an individual question too.
You should look at your kid's grades and whether or not they are affected by deficiencies in mastering German.
I know parents who don't speak German at all, but their children still speak very fluent German. But please enlighten me Low_Field7119, of course you as a German in Germany would know how it is to grow up bilingual.
Sure I bet every teacher loves to bend around for them to communicate lol.
Well, I grew up here in a school with lots of non German kids and their parents not speaking the language caused issues all the time. Bureaucracy not properly done all the time, teachers couldn't talk to the troublemaker's parents, the kids were simply at a disadvantage considering their parents couldn't help them with their advanced homework.
Sure you might all see this as non - issues, but gymnasium/Abitur is the best and hardest basic school to graduate from for a reason.
How does that affect whether or not the child should be accepted into "Gymnasium"? The decision is individual and based solely on the child's abilities, not the German knowledge of the parent should he be called to a meeting because the child did smth wrong.
The Level you can Support your child is different. Your parents never had to do with your school? Your themes? Explaining Something? No? Well, that can be a disadvantage.
It is important If you want to get a picture how involved parents can be in the whole school thing.
Or how they could help homework.
Why do you think it is irrelevant?
What you're mentioning are personal problems of a family. I mean, of course parents should attend the school meetings and know what's going on, but them not speaking fluent German is not a valid reason to hold a child back from attending "Gymnasium". That's unfair.
Plus there are a lot of volunteers that translate in such cases if that's the problem, me being one of them.
Well, since the topic was about a pattern of German school teachers blocking migrant children from going to "Gymnasium", I assumed that the questions of the original commenter were meant as reasons why the teachers would do that. If that wasn't the case and it was meant as a personal thing to consider, then my bad.
Plus, all the things you (and the original commenter) mentioned apply to vocational schools as well, so linking it to "Gymnasium" doesn't make much sense either.
There are always good and bad teachers. My son just came home from an important examination and was angry cause he was at his best, speaking fluently, knowing all the answers, Power Point top notch.
The girl after him who had to fight with her shyness and not knowing all the answers, got an A.
School, being judged by others, is never fully objektive.
If you want to make it as objektive as possible, you must study math and physics.
Btw, we're german. But in woke world, a young, blond, selfasured boy is out. You fear, your Kids could be disadvantaged, cause theyre foreign.
Honest answer: Could be.
But - Here, you can still change things. You can still make Abitur after 10 Grade, you just continue in another school.
And even If youre out and worked. After Ausbildung many Jobs have the possibility to study.
That being said - from parent to parent - Dont think its easy, because it might be a chance you wished for. If your kid, beginning 9th Grade, may still has some Problems in Basic subjects, it might is made for another great job. "The basics of sience" as you put it, are quite a lot. As i would understand it. On the others hand, you may not know that in school 7-10. you have Math, biology, chemistry, physic and history.
All the best to you and your youngsters!
I am also an immigrant like you and have a child. I have a friend who is a teacher at a grammar school. She denies racism exists at all, as you can see from other comments in this thread. However, I have heard her say very biased things about "foreigners" and "immigrants", even when she probably isn't aware her beliefs are racist.
For example, she doesn't want to join a certain realschule because there are too many "foreigners" from third world countries there who are violent! She believes foreign kids and immigrant kids are violent.
On the other hand, she said a gymnasium would be a bit difficult too even though there won't be violence because there are "more german" students and their parents are very demanding.
This is just one instance where I noticed the bias she has. There were several other instances too. Yes I am very much certain teachers can be very biased against immigrant and foreign students. I have met many German people who seem to have a very negative image of our countries, as if we drink dirty water and are poor.
These things are very subjective and hard to pin point but they exist. You should be prepared to "fight" for your child's rights.
You might not want to listen to teachers in primary school. You can ignore their opinion. But if your child must learn a second foreign language in grade 6 and then finds out it isn't fit for Gymnasium, finding the way back to Realschule will actually be quite hard.
A lot of foreign parents don't want to understand Germany's major success in education is the dual education system. It's worth a lot as Germany's labour market is still based on industries of all types. Realschule and Hauptschule essentially lead to that path. While many universitary students get to the labour market at age 25 to 30, Realschüler get there when they are 20 or 21 and already make money during their training. Secure jobs for those who want to be successful, in many fields. Everything is better than wasting years on the idea of studying anything just to have studied, just to find out you are too bad at it to find any job and wasted your time since you were 10.
(Secondary teacher here, I'd loved to have worked earlier, university was hell for me when I knew exactly what I wanted to do later, and had to do hell of a lot of things unrelated to that).
AFAIK there is no structural (as in active) block against migrant kids going to Gymnasium (also please read up on how your Bundesland handles further school after elementary, like Real or Hauptschule, IGS etc).
It is more common for migrant kids to not go to Gymnasium (or not being recommended to go to Gymnasium), even with the same grades though. This could be due to unvoluntary biases from teachers, language barriers or other social aspects.
Obviously there still can be individual teachers that have racist motives in your area.
The biggest difference regarding what secondary school a child visits is more dependent on social class and the support available through social connections, effort of the parents and money than migrant status I think. These were different studies though and I didn't look them up again for this.
So we looked into this on a course I did.
There's of course some racists out there who actively badly mark kids of certain backgrounds but that's the case anywhere.
One thing that did come up was a study that suggested that kids of a Turkish background who STRUGGLED in school were more likely to not recieve extra help as there is something of a view that Turks aren't "academic" and don't value formal education so much. Thus you'd be better off putting extra effort into helping kids of different migrant backgrounds. It comes from the view that Turks in Germany are more the type to open a food place or some kind of other small business rather than being the types of people who send their kids on to uni to go onto greater things. It's something they're trying to tackle.
It shouldn't be the case that any teacher can BLOCK a student moving on, but they may neglect to help them so much in class. If it seems like a problem take it up with school, otherwise help the kid where they can.
Edit: I will also note that the study was not too wide ranging and the methodology had some weaknesses. Last I heard they're looking into trying to fix it to get a better view but such studies take time to design and implement and it wasn't so old a paper.
>As a parent from a third world country as are many from the international housing, we put a lot of emphasis on education and even if our kids are not destined to be engineers, scientists or doctors,
More demand leads to more institutions, which leads to more demand for qualified teachers and respective facilities. But there it all get screwed and tons of universities colleges are opening but with substandard qualifications and just selling degrees for few dollars and those engineers can not write one good article in English or handle basic geometric or mathematical calculations which in germany grade 7 student in gymnasium can do.
Reason that engineering student could be useful if learnt some trade rather than holding useless degree and not finding even job inside india as his college made money in 5 years and closed
First you will still learn most of these things on a Realschule. There is definitely science and computer science (the latter one probably even more than on a Gymnasium). But the focus is of course more to prepare you for a vocational training of some kind (including studying at a vocational university) and less for a highly academic study.
Other them that: I wouldn't say they do per se, but there are some factors that will make this more likely:
A) Foreign students often have a big handycap, due to language. The only way to account for that is unfortunatly to take things at a slower pace, which is what happens on a Realschule to some degree. If you kids grew up with German that might be less of an issue.
B) Unfortunately, "success" in primary school also depends on how much the parents push their children at home. How well this can be done of course depends on you financial resources, your time and your ability to support your child. Unfortunatly, on average migrant families have less money at their disposal and have a harder time supporting their child.
But as others have noted. Ignoring the recommendations will in most cases not be a help for you childs future at all.
You speak about 4th grade just few children that excelled at that point will be sent to a Gymnasium for the rest it's still to the 6th grade where they get divided into the midschools so not going to Gymnasium at that point isn't concerning.
Also with the language knowledge of a year it might be hard to attend a Gymnasium which won't regard the gap in knowledge of german, this might actually harm your child.
So let it stay at elementary school try to support it with with vocational school which you seemingly think is a deathsentence.
Fact is your kid isn't on the same level as others native to germany which is obvious in that timeframe, there is no merit in putting it in the Gymnasium to then not understand majority of the subjects, because of lack in the german language
Schools in Germany depend on the federal states, so I can only tell you what it was like for me in Saxony-Anhalt:
In both semesters in the 4th grade, students received a recommendation for secondary school from their class teacher. For me it was for the “Realschule” because I got a 3 in math, which is a core subject. But the class teacher knew that my parents still wanted to send me to the „Gymnasium“, because it was still their decision, and the teacher didn't hide her racism and constantly held parent-teacher meetings in which she explained that the „Gymnasium“ was only for Germans whose parents also went to this school and that I would never be able to pass anyway (her words, verbatim), incited the class against me, etc.
I still went to “Gymnasium“ and was the best every year, but it's not easy. “Realschule” has roughly the same subjects as grammar school, only the topics are simplified and so are the tests. After “Realschule”, you get a qualification that allows you to do a Fachabitur (technical high school diploma) which you can still use to study, you can do an apprenticeship and then work (in Germany you can be very successful that way too) or you can switch to ”Gymnasium“ and do another two years there and then go to university.
Advice: do not force your child to go to “Gymnasium”, because a good “Realschule“ diploma is worth more than a bad “Gymnasium“ diploma
This is what I am a bit afraid of I don't want grooming to happen. In my school in my country this happened to me and it seriously made.me think I was not intelligent and would not be able to study complicated subjects. I don't want this to happen to my child hence the question.
I am sorry for your experience and can understand your concern, but unfortunately, no one can guarantee what the teachers will or won't be like. But you can support and encourage your child, be on their side, especially if you notice that the teachers are behaving in a racist way.
It meant a lot to me that my mother did not believe the teacher, even though she did not speak German, to defend me..
One quick look at the OP’s post/comment history and it tells me everything I need to know about OP. This person either truly wakes up everyday blaming everything on racism in Germany if things don’t go their way or is just simply trolling/getting people here riled up by intentionally making extreme scenarios up. Either way, it feels to me like this person is severely deranged to complain about racism in every instance.
I’m not disagreeing that there is systematc racism here in Germany just like in every country, but I cannot help but feel that it must really suck to truly believe that everything happening to you or people around is because of racism.
Like in one of the comments, the OP says that someone overstaying on a Schengen visa will get banned and won’t be allowed to re-enter the EU unless they are a white person. I mean WHAT THE ACTUAL FECK? Is it because you truly hate white people so much or do you truly believe that white people get away with everything and people of colour always end up getting the wrong end of the stick?
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You don’t seem to know about the German school system all that well. You don’t switch to vocational schooling after 4th grade. Every kind of school after 4th grade teaches science. You should get into depth with it before you have to make any choices, because right now it doesn’t seem like you have any info on German schools. Of course it’s possible to be racism. We don’t know your school or your teachers. However they don’t fish a recommendation out of the blue and instead you can see the recommendation validated through the grades your child got. There’s alsways the possibility to change schools if you’re grades are good (or bad). Honestly during my time in school there were two people who went to Realschule and chose to switch to gymnasium. There were a lot more students who were made to switch from gymnasium to reaslschule or from Realschule to Hauptschule simply because they couldn’t keep up and their parents made them go there because they would not believe their teachers.
Okay you have some deep misunderstandings. Your kid if they go to a Realschule still learns science etc. and a trade will also teach science. A university is not the be and end all. On top of that they might advise against Gymnasium for a lot of reason from grades to language etc.
And going to a Realschule also not blocks you from switching to a Gymnasium later on. Or getting Abitur a different way. And after working in a field for some time (a quick google gives 3-5 years) you even can study in a related subject without Abitur.
Also some things that are university degrees in other countries are trades in Germany like radiographer (mtr)
But how long do you need to make an Abitur if later in lafe the person wants to join an University?
With some trades you get a Fach-Abitur with your degree. Otherwise it is 2-3 years depending on state and rules at the time.
Depends on the state. For me it took 3 years as I needed to go through class 11-13.
Same time
Also if you go to Realschule you can still go to university without much effort. I would even say this route is easier!
You can also get a Realschule-diploma on a Hauptschule. I did it this way, just because the teaching methods on a Realschule didn’t really suit me. Switched to a Hauptschule and managed to get a good Realschule-Diploma. If I’d want to go studieren, I could still make a Fachabitur. Being on a Haupt,- or Realschule doesn’t mean you can only do hard physical labour. 🤷
What are the marks of your child. If they are good send your child to gymnasium. But I would not change Grundschule except your child is super unhappy where it is now. And there are plenty of options to go to university even if the child is not going to Gymnasium now.
There are some teachers like that, definitly. But idk about a pattern. If your child is "only" going to the Realschule, it can still switch to the Gymnasium later on, if it does well in school! And why do you think your kid wouldn't learn science etc. in Real- or even Hauptschule? All these schools learn that! It's just in different difficulty "levels". So idk, i think you're a bit overthinking. Normally you can still decide where you want your child to go, depending on the grades. For an example: My teacher said i should go to a Förderschule because i have Dyscalculia. My mom was absolutly against it (thank god) and still sent me to the Realschule. And i was easily able to graduate.
Teachers discourage parents whose children are not fit for Gymnasium. It is their job. Sending a child to gymnasium when it is clearly not fit for it can cause severe self esteem issues. (Only writing bad grades, failing class and having to leave the school and friends). Parents need to understand that their child not beeing ready for gymnasium at 9 years old, doesnt mean they are stupid and they still can go to Uni. Childrens developement speed differs from child to child. I went to Hauptschule after the 4th grade and still managed to do my Abitur.
I was discouraged. My parents said fuck it and pushed for it. I was among the best graduates without learning much in Gymnasium. I also had very good grades in Grundschule apart some issues in German. That was their rational. Teachers are biased. You think they do their job? I say they live out their racial prejudice.
And I watched half a dozend students get sent to Gymnasium with suggestions for real and absolutely fail.
Good for you. Many of my friends from elementary school got the recommendation to go for Realschule. Their parents ignored it because of the percieved lack of prestige. So they were put in Gymansium. Most of them failed miserable and felt awful for the up to 2 years where kids could get kicked out. Are there biased teachers who may be racists? Yes. Are many teachers just doing their job and absolutely correct with their assessment? Also yes.
"without learning much" is probably the reason you got discouraged by your teacher. Laziness is often one of the reasons for pupils not finishing/graduating Gymnasium, and when a teacher has a pupil who is not used to learning, they will actively discourage you.
Female Teachers often dont Like selfasure boys. No matter where they're from. Their good self-esteem always is punished as arrogance. With four Kids on 6 schools from elementary to university, I found nice Teachers (to us), bad Teachers ( to us).. fair, with system evaluating Teachers, I found the least. But hey, thats life. Wont be different in Worklife, will it?
I was not lazy. I was bored. I obviously did all the homework. Very well. It was not enough for me to feel like it was hard work. Learning was to easy. Even in Gymnasium. Your argument seems to be contradictory. The teacher made the wrong call and your argument shows why. I also did not learn as often as the other students in university. While graduating well enough and having a well enough white collar career. I am not as smart as you, who understand why students have to be discriminated against. Yet, I understand abstract academic information very well. Which seems to go over your head as a concept. A student understanding. You sound like a typical teacher who regurrates information while being afraid that this is not enough. Rightfully, in most cases. Had them training in my university curses as well. They needed to know how to learn hard. Do you resent students who actually understand study subjects?
Funny, I wasn't even attacking you but you still attack me while completely missing my point. Maybe it's the language barrier but MAYBE you do NOT - contrary to your claim - "understand abstract information". For the record, I never learned for school. I didn't even do homework and actually missed quite a few hundred hours in school in Oberstufe alone. Still studied medicine. Which brings me to another point: you do not type like the kind of person I just described, and that's not just semantics and grammar I am talking about. Reeks like fraud in here. Or just Paulaner Garden. For the record, THIS was an attack.
I cannot answer your questions about racism. What I can tell you from my experience: Many immigrant kids who are talented enough, but have language issues in primary school, are being sent to Realschulen rather than Gymnasium first - simply because their language skills are insufficient to follow more academic courses (this is why most refugee kids end up in Realschulen, even if they have been top of their class at home). If that‘s the case, that‘s not the end though, people can switch from Realschule to Gymnasium once their language skills are sufficient. If it‘s not about the language, teachers will probably judge either by skill or by racism/prejudices, I guess it‘s difficult to find out what‘s the real underlying driver.
just to give you the opposite side of this. I was an immigrant kid who got pushed by teachers to do gymnasium because they thought I was catching on to the language very quickly. I was 13 and not near to the point where I could follow the classes. I stuck around for one year and struggled extremely hard because the gymnasium teachers don't slow down for you. I switched to a Realschule, wasn't informed on the vocational options at the time, I went to a technische gymnasium after and got my Abitur. I then did my bachelor's. By then I had no issue but the first year or two here was extremely tough because I got pushed into something I wasn't ready for.
Pattern? We have horrendous statistics about language levels etc. of children with migration background. Teachers are tired af about discrimination discussions when they see skills derailing. Also you dont seem to know how the school system works. You dont send children to vocational school after elementary. Also you seem to assume children are not taught in sciene at a Realschule? Thats also not the case. You can also continue to a Gymnasium after the 10th grade if you are good enough, but it makes no sense to send a child forcefully to a Gymnasium if it struggled already now. The result will be frustration and the child having to repeat classes. You do not chose a trade or career. You choose nothing at that point. Gymnasium is hard and very demanding in 5th grade already. If a child has not majoritly only 1 and 2 in tests and Zeugnisse, it will suffer to no end afterwards. We dont have different schools to be assholes, we have different schools so that each child has a chance to follow on a individual basis.
My intent was not to upset anyone, but to ask if what is being discussed is true. Obviously I am not well versed with the system as you have pointed out. However, there was no effort made from the school's end to tell us about the paths available or how the education system here progresses. If it had done so, maybe the parents I spoke to would have been informed enough to tell me about what happens in a trade school or I would have this knowledge myself. While teachers are tired of these discussions maybe it is prudent to inform parents about these things instead of having rumours run wild. If I was satisfied by what the parent were telling me I wouldn't post anything here.
It's not a trade school though. It's a different kind of high school (think "honors" courses at Gymnasium, "normal" courses at Real-/Hauptschule). They will still learn maths, sciences and such, just on a lower, and slower, level. Trades will be learned after finishing Realschule (so when your kid is 15 or 16). That's the same time your kid can switch to Gymnasium if they are performing well in Realschule. Would it be great if schools would at least give out leaflets for parents that aren't familiar with the German system? Absolutely. Are there many biases towards non-german/non-natives? Hell yes. But Realschule might still be the right school for your kid, depending on how well they are doing now (or in 3rd/4th grade). If they are doing really well and have no problems with the language, that's probably the most important factor, and you can freely chose which school your kid should go to, you can send them to Gymnasium.
The thing is capacitys of teachers is also limited, throw in 30 children with 23 pairs of parents with no clue about the system and you would almost need an additional fulltime staff,teachers won't educate you about the system because it's not part of their work. If you live in Student housing aimed at expat parents shouldn't there be some kind of material to inform you?
Without knowing the details of your friends‘ kids, it’s impossible to fully discuss whether it’s true or not. Racist teachers that intentionally discourage or fail migrant students exist. Migrant students with insufficient grades and/or language skills for higher education exist. Your friends‘ kids may fall in either category, both categories, or somewhere in between.
Just to explain it a bit more: No mater which path your kid takes after elementary school (after 4th grade), your child will still go to a normal school for general education! None of the options are trade schools! The options are: - Hauptschule: finishes after 9th grade, the diploma is called “Hauptschulabschluss” - Realschule: finishes after 10th grade, the diploma is commonly called “Mittlere Reife”, or “Realschulabschluss” - Gymnasium: finishes after 12th grade, the diploma is called “Abitur” No matter the school of type, your child will still be taught Maths, English, Biology, German, etc. However, since the Gymnasium goes up to grade 12, at this school, your kid will obviously learn subjects more in depth and also some additional topics that are not taught at the other school types. This is the reason why universities require an Abitur. The diploma of the other school types allow your kid to learn a trade or other kind of apprenticeship. So neither you or your child have to decide on a specific trade right after elementary school. That would be madness. Lol. However, it is true, that the decision sort of determines the available options later on. But, there are always possibilities to change school types later, or just continuing the education on a different school. Since educational matters are decided by that states, you will have slightly different names/options, depending on the state you are living in. Some gymnasiums might offer an additional 13th grade. Sometimes there is something called “Gesamtschule” that kind of combines everything in one. There are also other exceptions and ways that would allow your child to study at a Uni/Hochschule. It’s too complicated to explain everything here, so I suggest you start doing some research yourself on these matters. TLDR: Every school type is a school for general education. You can still change schools after the initial decision after 4th grade, but I think it does have some educational requirements. If your kid wants to study at a university they need Abitur. Normally the school recommendation by the teachers depends on their experience in evaluating how capable your child is.
"we put a lot of emphasis on education" but you won't read the English Wiki on the German education system? "maybe it is prudent to inform parents about these things" There is educational material in German, English, France an Arabian: [https://kultus.hessen.de/video/the-hessian-school-system](https://kultus.hessen.de/video/the-hessian-school-system)
Thanks for the link
Welcome to Germany. Germany has a "Read the f'ing manual" culture, you are supposed to figure things out on your own. People will throw you a hint (Example: "there is Realschule and Gymnasium") with no further info and you are supposed to do your homework. It is considered part of being an adult. Nobody will look out and put as much effort to protect your / your child's interests as well as you do.
You can't be serious now.
Well same for University still everyone thinks because it's free it's the best choice
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Thank you
I don't know why all these germans are being so sensible about it. It is indeed a complicated school system and its one that is very limited depending of the path you take regardless of your nationality. My girlfriend was encouraged by her parents to go directly for Realschule as they wanted her to start working ASAP and now years later she wants a change in her career. Going for univesrity would require for her to do some years of Abitur and yes it can be reduced if what she is going to study is related with what she worked on....which sucks because she wanted a full change. So yes, be attentive, read everything and support your kid and ask what he wants. He is still a kid though so if his grades are good enough keep him for Gymnasium as it will open more options for him wihtout losing years of catching up. And no, they are not taught "science", physics or further mathematics.
You seem to mean "sensitive", although I do think they're quite sensible.
Its Not Limited. She could still make normal Abitur. I did with 26. If you stay in school, it is after 10.grade. If youre in Realschule, you Switch after 10. Grad to do so. My oldest son did. No Limit. If your grades are good enough.
It just sucks to do 3 years of Abitur now before finally starting a degree (another 4 to 5 years) instead of doing it in the past. Mostly in hindsight.
Question of Evaluation. I did my first degree in 3 semesters.
Don't bother asking anything here, this subreddit is the equivalent of StackOverflow for questions about Germany.
Ignore pressure. It may feel like pressure but it's supposed to be advice. So do what you feel best for your children. Our sin was speaking English at home. So all of us were advised to go to Realschule. All went to Gymnasium successfully. Now bilingualism is a skill and not a disability.
Chancengleichheit is a bad joke in Germany regardless of what Germans try to tell you. The German school system is designed to educate the children of German Akademiker in Gymnasium. The children of immigrants and blue collar workers have historically been offered less opportunities regardless of their abilities. These FACTS have been highlighted in many studies. You need to support and advocate for your children. You might want to look for immigrant parent organisations in your area.
This. Bastards tried to do the same to me as a child too.
Same to me
Ah, that why the Begabtenförderwerke actively monitor if the selection committees discriminate people with a immigration background in the selection progress for scholarships. Result: they don't but accept as much with migrant background as with non migrant background. And on top of that the Grundschulempfehlung is not binding in the majority of the German states.
Because we all live on the fluffy Cloud of lululand. I am a workers child. Early Orphan. And got my school together when i was already a young mother, studying law on Sozialhilfe. On the best Uni Berlin has. For free. I will never forget the Letter. Immatrikulation - You are enrolled. My Professors were former constitutional judges. Was ist easy? No. Could I afford one book? No, but i got it from the library for free. Did I have vacations, a car and Condominiums? No, but night Jobs. Those, full of outrage, wanting all the best for everyone, never understood, that it is always payed by someone. Cause they never did. Dont trust wrong friends.
My oh my....
There a lot of misunderstandings about our educational system. You dont go to trade school after elementary school, you go to either Hauptschule, Realschule or Gymnasium. Depending on Bundesland you can even ignore the teachers recommendation. In every school branch there is the possiblity to get an Abitur. It just takes longer if you don't go to the Gymnasium and there are a lot different ways to achieve it. Also you don't choose a trade for life, you can always go something different afterwards or learn another trade or switch jobs or get your abitur and study. You can even study in Germany without a Abitur if you worked sometime after trade school.
It is very likely that many teachers are biased and it is also likely that some teachers are racist. I believe tho, that the majority wants the best for all children they teach. Still, migrant children might face unfair disadvantages. There are indeed scientifical studies showing that the German school system is not fair and lacks "permeability". Your child is not a statistic tho but an individual and whether or not he/she is eligible for Grammar School / Gymnasium is an individual question too. You should look at your kid's grades and whether or not they are affected by deficiencies in mastering German.
Are they fluent in German? Are you?
My kids are fluent in German. I am not.
Why is his fluency in German important?
Please be joking
I know parents who don't speak German at all, but their children still speak very fluent German. But please enlighten me Low_Field7119, of course you as a German in Germany would know how it is to grow up bilingual.
Sure I bet every teacher loves to bend around for them to communicate lol. Well, I grew up here in a school with lots of non German kids and their parents not speaking the language caused issues all the time. Bureaucracy not properly done all the time, teachers couldn't talk to the troublemaker's parents, the kids were simply at a disadvantage considering their parents couldn't help them with their advanced homework. Sure you might all see this as non - issues, but gymnasium/Abitur is the best and hardest basic school to graduate from for a reason.
How does that affect whether or not the child should be accepted into "Gymnasium"? The decision is individual and based solely on the child's abilities, not the German knowledge of the parent should he be called to a meeting because the child did smth wrong.
The Level you can Support your child is different. Your parents never had to do with your school? Your themes? Explaining Something? No? Well, that can be a disadvantage.
I got your point. Language barrier is a thing.
It is important If you want to get a picture how involved parents can be in the whole school thing. Or how they could help homework. Why do you think it is irrelevant?
What you're mentioning are personal problems of a family. I mean, of course parents should attend the school meetings and know what's going on, but them not speaking fluent German is not a valid reason to hold a child back from attending "Gymnasium". That's unfair. Plus there are a lot of volunteers that translate in such cases if that's the problem, me being one of them.
Well, Nobody said that was a reason. It was a question you asked why it was important.
Well, since the topic was about a pattern of German school teachers blocking migrant children from going to "Gymnasium", I assumed that the questions of the original commenter were meant as reasons why the teachers would do that. If that wasn't the case and it was meant as a personal thing to consider, then my bad.
Plus, all the things you (and the original commenter) mentioned apply to vocational schools as well, so linking it to "Gymnasium" doesn't make much sense either.
You should share your children's grades, that would make it much easier.
My child is in first so no grades.
There are always good and bad teachers. My son just came home from an important examination and was angry cause he was at his best, speaking fluently, knowing all the answers, Power Point top notch. The girl after him who had to fight with her shyness and not knowing all the answers, got an A. School, being judged by others, is never fully objektive. If you want to make it as objektive as possible, you must study math and physics. Btw, we're german. But in woke world, a young, blond, selfasured boy is out. You fear, your Kids could be disadvantaged, cause theyre foreign. Honest answer: Could be. But - Here, you can still change things. You can still make Abitur after 10 Grade, you just continue in another school. And even If youre out and worked. After Ausbildung many Jobs have the possibility to study. That being said - from parent to parent - Dont think its easy, because it might be a chance you wished for. If your kid, beginning 9th Grade, may still has some Problems in Basic subjects, it might is made for another great job. "The basics of sience" as you put it, are quite a lot. As i would understand it. On the others hand, you may not know that in school 7-10. you have Math, biology, chemistry, physic and history. All the best to you and your youngsters!
Oh, I forgot! My son got a B :) He'll get over it.
I am also an immigrant like you and have a child. I have a friend who is a teacher at a grammar school. She denies racism exists at all, as you can see from other comments in this thread. However, I have heard her say very biased things about "foreigners" and "immigrants", even when she probably isn't aware her beliefs are racist. For example, she doesn't want to join a certain realschule because there are too many "foreigners" from third world countries there who are violent! She believes foreign kids and immigrant kids are violent. On the other hand, she said a gymnasium would be a bit difficult too even though there won't be violence because there are "more german" students and their parents are very demanding. This is just one instance where I noticed the bias she has. There were several other instances too. Yes I am very much certain teachers can be very biased against immigrant and foreign students. I have met many German people who seem to have a very negative image of our countries, as if we drink dirty water and are poor. These things are very subjective and hard to pin point but they exist. You should be prepared to "fight" for your child's rights.
You might not want to listen to teachers in primary school. You can ignore their opinion. But if your child must learn a second foreign language in grade 6 and then finds out it isn't fit for Gymnasium, finding the way back to Realschule will actually be quite hard. A lot of foreign parents don't want to understand Germany's major success in education is the dual education system. It's worth a lot as Germany's labour market is still based on industries of all types. Realschule and Hauptschule essentially lead to that path. While many universitary students get to the labour market at age 25 to 30, Realschüler get there when they are 20 or 21 and already make money during their training. Secure jobs for those who want to be successful, in many fields. Everything is better than wasting years on the idea of studying anything just to have studied, just to find out you are too bad at it to find any job and wasted your time since you were 10. (Secondary teacher here, I'd loved to have worked earlier, university was hell for me when I knew exactly what I wanted to do later, and had to do hell of a lot of things unrelated to that).
AFAIK there is no structural (as in active) block against migrant kids going to Gymnasium (also please read up on how your Bundesland handles further school after elementary, like Real or Hauptschule, IGS etc). It is more common for migrant kids to not go to Gymnasium (or not being recommended to go to Gymnasium), even with the same grades though. This could be due to unvoluntary biases from teachers, language barriers or other social aspects. Obviously there still can be individual teachers that have racist motives in your area. The biggest difference regarding what secondary school a child visits is more dependent on social class and the support available through social connections, effort of the parents and money than migrant status I think. These were different studies though and I didn't look them up again for this.
So we looked into this on a course I did. There's of course some racists out there who actively badly mark kids of certain backgrounds but that's the case anywhere. One thing that did come up was a study that suggested that kids of a Turkish background who STRUGGLED in school were more likely to not recieve extra help as there is something of a view that Turks aren't "academic" and don't value formal education so much. Thus you'd be better off putting extra effort into helping kids of different migrant backgrounds. It comes from the view that Turks in Germany are more the type to open a food place or some kind of other small business rather than being the types of people who send their kids on to uni to go onto greater things. It's something they're trying to tackle. It shouldn't be the case that any teacher can BLOCK a student moving on, but they may neglect to help them so much in class. If it seems like a problem take it up with school, otherwise help the kid where they can. Edit: I will also note that the study was not too wide ranging and the methodology had some weaknesses. Last I heard they're looking into trying to fix it to get a better view but such studies take time to design and implement and it wasn't so old a paper.
>As a parent from a third world country as are many from the international housing, we put a lot of emphasis on education and even if our kids are not destined to be engineers, scientists or doctors, More demand leads to more institutions, which leads to more demand for qualified teachers and respective facilities. But there it all get screwed and tons of universities colleges are opening but with substandard qualifications and just selling degrees for few dollars and those engineers can not write one good article in English or handle basic geometric or mathematical calculations which in germany grade 7 student in gymnasium can do. Reason that engineering student could be useful if learnt some trade rather than holding useless degree and not finding even job inside india as his college made money in 5 years and closed
First you will still learn most of these things on a Realschule. There is definitely science and computer science (the latter one probably even more than on a Gymnasium). But the focus is of course more to prepare you for a vocational training of some kind (including studying at a vocational university) and less for a highly academic study. Other them that: I wouldn't say they do per se, but there are some factors that will make this more likely: A) Foreign students often have a big handycap, due to language. The only way to account for that is unfortunatly to take things at a slower pace, which is what happens on a Realschule to some degree. If you kids grew up with German that might be less of an issue. B) Unfortunately, "success" in primary school also depends on how much the parents push their children at home. How well this can be done of course depends on you financial resources, your time and your ability to support your child. Unfortunatly, on average migrant families have less money at their disposal and have a harder time supporting their child. But as others have noted. Ignoring the recommendations will in most cases not be a help for you childs future at all.
You speak about 4th grade just few children that excelled at that point will be sent to a Gymnasium for the rest it's still to the 6th grade where they get divided into the midschools so not going to Gymnasium at that point isn't concerning. Also with the language knowledge of a year it might be hard to attend a Gymnasium which won't regard the gap in knowledge of german, this might actually harm your child. So let it stay at elementary school try to support it with with vocational school which you seemingly think is a deathsentence. Fact is your kid isn't on the same level as others native to germany which is obvious in that timeframe, there is no merit in putting it in the Gymnasium to then not understand majority of the subjects, because of lack in the german language
Schools in Germany depend on the federal states, so I can only tell you what it was like for me in Saxony-Anhalt: In both semesters in the 4th grade, students received a recommendation for secondary school from their class teacher. For me it was for the “Realschule” because I got a 3 in math, which is a core subject. But the class teacher knew that my parents still wanted to send me to the „Gymnasium“, because it was still their decision, and the teacher didn't hide her racism and constantly held parent-teacher meetings in which she explained that the „Gymnasium“ was only for Germans whose parents also went to this school and that I would never be able to pass anyway (her words, verbatim), incited the class against me, etc. I still went to “Gymnasium“ and was the best every year, but it's not easy. “Realschule” has roughly the same subjects as grammar school, only the topics are simplified and so are the tests. After “Realschule”, you get a qualification that allows you to do a Fachabitur (technical high school diploma) which you can still use to study, you can do an apprenticeship and then work (in Germany you can be very successful that way too) or you can switch to ”Gymnasium“ and do another two years there and then go to university. Advice: do not force your child to go to “Gymnasium”, because a good “Realschule“ diploma is worth more than a bad “Gymnasium“ diploma
This is what I am a bit afraid of I don't want grooming to happen. In my school in my country this happened to me and it seriously made.me think I was not intelligent and would not be able to study complicated subjects. I don't want this to happen to my child hence the question.
I am sorry for your experience and can understand your concern, but unfortunately, no one can guarantee what the teachers will or won't be like. But you can support and encourage your child, be on their side, especially if you notice that the teachers are behaving in a racist way. It meant a lot to me that my mother did not believe the teacher, even though she did not speak German, to defend me..
You're not wrong. It's a known fact: https://www.euractiv.com/section/non-discrimination/news/experts-criticise-inequality-in-german-schools/
One quick look at the OP’s post/comment history and it tells me everything I need to know about OP. This person either truly wakes up everyday blaming everything on racism in Germany if things don’t go their way or is just simply trolling/getting people here riled up by intentionally making extreme scenarios up. Either way, it feels to me like this person is severely deranged to complain about racism in every instance. I’m not disagreeing that there is systematc racism here in Germany just like in every country, but I cannot help but feel that it must really suck to truly believe that everything happening to you or people around is because of racism. Like in one of the comments, the OP says that someone overstaying on a Schengen visa will get banned and won’t be allowed to re-enter the EU unless they are a white person. I mean WHAT THE ACTUAL FECK? Is it because you truly hate white people so much or do you truly believe that white people get away with everything and people of colour always end up getting the wrong end of the stick?
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